Prop 38: Borrows $8.4 Billion to Fund Immunology Research
Prop 5: Changes to the State Recall Election Process
Prop 3: Making the Income Tax Rate on High Earners Permanent
Prop 2: Strengthening California's Rainy Day Fund
What if Transit Ballot Measures Fail? Plus, Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals and a Valkyries Playoff Preview
How the Trump Administration Is Using SFO as a ‘De Facto Detention Center’
Desperate Tenants in SF Face Scams, Substandard Rentals
As AI Booms, Daniel Lurie Declares ‘Rent Emergency’ in San Francisco
How 1 Teacher Is Reckoning With Cesar Chavez’s Legacy in the Classroom
SF’s Toppled Statues Give Rise to New Monuments
A Super El Niño in the Bay Area: What You Need to Know
What Happened to the Quantified Self Movement?
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>Immunotherapy has been around for a really long time. Things like vaccines are considered part of immunology, but it also includes more recent innovations like newer treatments for blood and skin cancers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:15] \u003c/em>In simple terms, immunotherapy is individualized treatment designed to harness a patient’s immune system to fight disease. For some, immunotherapy has been life-changing. And voters are being asked this November whether to fund immunology and immunotherapy research with one very specific beneficiary in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:38] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:41] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>And welcome to Prop Fest. A collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down all 14 statewide propositions on your ballot this year November. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>And we’re back at it again with Proposition 38. Here’s how it reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reporter: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>Prop 38 authorizes bonds for immunology medical research. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>Here to walk us through all of this is KQED Health Correspondent April Dembosky. April, first of all, what is Prop 38 all about? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:16] \u003c/em>Prop 38 is a bond measure that would fund immunology and immunotherapy research. It would allow the state to borrow $8.4 billion and distribute it to nonprofit research centers that are studying immunotherapy treatments for cancer, heart disease, and Alzheimer’s. The measure is expected to cost the state about $500 million a year for 20 years in bond repayments. And about $4 billion of that would be interest payments on top of the original 8.4 billion for a total cost of about $12 billion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>There is sort of an interesting story about how this came on the ballot in the first place, right? Can you actually talk about why voters are even being asked to fund immunotherapy in this year’s election?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:11] \u003c/em>Prop 38 was the brainchild of a philanthropist named Gary Michelson. He raised the money to collect the signatures and put Prop 38 on the ballot. Something that’s really interesting about the initiative is how it’s worded. The language is very careful. It lists very strict criteria for the type of academic institution that should receive half of the money. This criteria is so specific. That only one university in the state meets the criteria, and that is UCLA. Half the funds would go toward launching a new immunology institute at UCLA, and the other half would be awarded through competitive grants to other institutes also in California. And so, as it turns out, Michelson has already donated $120 million of his own money to establish a new institute for immunotherapy at UCLA. It’s called the California Institute for Immunology and Immunotherapy. That same institution would also be the touch point for all the research. So the other half of the funding that would get distributed in competitive grants would all be sort of centered at UCLA. So it’s safe to say that this is on the ballot because a very wealthy philanthropist put it there as a way to finance a research institution focused on his interest, which is immunology and immunotherapy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:50] \u003c/em>Okay, April, so Prop 38 was put on the ballot by this wealthy philanthropist, Gary Michelson, and it’s written in this way that would, it sounds like directly benefit a research institute at UCLA that he’s helping to fund. So clearly he has some skin in the game here. Is Prop 38 getting much support from elsewhere? Like how else is the pro-Prop 38 side kind of shaping up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:18] \u003c/em>There’s a long list of foundations and advocacy groups that have signed on in support of Prop 38, places like Blood Cancer United, the Melanoma Research Alliance, the Alzheimer’s Association, the ALS Association, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson’s Research. So these are groups that hope and believe that new immunotherapies could be developed to treat these specific diseases. Proponents also say this initiative is necessary because federal funding for this kind of research has become unreliable under the current administration. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:58] \u003c/em>The big thing right now is that current CAR T therapy is really expensive. It’s not as efficient as we want it to be. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:05] \u003c/em>So I spoke to one researcher who was working on a project funded by the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. Her name is Jillian McCool, and she was working at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory studying vaccines and a kind of therapy for cancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:20] \u003c/em>We basically can take your immune cells and we can take them out of your body and we an alter them so they’re better fit and better suited to fight cancer cells specifically. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:29] \u003c/em>And then some of their grants ran out after they reached the end of the term, but then some of the funding was paused because of the most recent government shutdown. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:38] \u003c/em>All of the sudden we have this weird rhetoric around vaccines and all of the sudden there’s this new administration coming in that’s kind of pushing that rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:47] \u003c/em>McCool says about 100 scientists were laid off, including her. She was out of work for a year and a half. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:54] \u003c/em>And then the public is no longer trusting scientists and what they have to say in the data we’ve collected, it kind of makes you question your whole career in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:05] \u003c/em>So it’s personal for McCool, but she says Prop 38 is a way to correct what’s happening at the federal level and protect the jobs of lots of other scientists. She also says, you know, California is a center of excellence in this kind of research, and so it makes sense to root it here. She also points out that the measure is designed to be cost neutral, with 10% of revenues generated from successful discoveries being funneled back to the state. Californians would also be entitled to a 20% discount on any new therapies that are generated from the bond money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:41] \u003c/em>And a big part of immunotherapy research is directed towards cancer research and you actually met a cancer patient who’s pretty gung-ho about Prop 38, right? Tell me about her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>My name is Laurie Adami and I live in Los Angeles, California. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:57] \u003c/em>Laurie was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It’s a kind of blood cancer, and this was 20 years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:04] \u003c/em>And when I got sick and I ended up losing my career as a result of my very long battle with cancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:13] \u003c/em>Several years ago, she enrolled in a clinical trial for an immunotherapy called CAR-T. So, Laurie had one infusion of this immunotherapy about eight years ago and her cancer has not come back since. Now, she’s only one person. You know, it’s important to point out there’s still a large proportion of patients who participated in these trials who did not respond in the same way. But as you can imagine, Laurie is pretty gung-ho for Prop 38. Because of the prospect that it could fund more research and develop more treatments like this to fight other kinds of cancers and other diseases and help more people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:54] \u003c/em>You know, not every family is gonna be affected by cancer, but every family is gonna affected by these other diseases. And so I am a huge proponent and supporter because immunotherapy saved my life. So why wouldn’t I believe? And why wouldn’t I want more patients to be able to access the type of treatment that finally saved my live? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:23] \u003c/em>We’ll have more on Proposition 38 right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PropFest, consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:47] \u003c/em>And we’re back breaking down Proposition 38 with KQED’s April Dembosky. April, you talked about the various different groups supporting Prop 38, including a patient who really believes in the power of immunotherapy research to potentially save lives. So who’s coming out against Prop 38 and what is their argument? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:10] \u003c/em>Yeah, so there’s a very small group of opponents. They’re pretty much all volunteers. It’s very grassroots. And they have organized to point out what they see as the weaknesses and even what they might call the dangers of Prop 38\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>I just think that there are inherent conflicts of interest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:29] \u003c/em>The main one is Robert Kaplan. He’s a biomedical researcher and administrator at Stanford University School of Medicine. And he also worked at the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. So he has a lot of experience coordinating the kind of research that we’re talking about and at a really grand scale. So he says he supports biomedical research. He’s in favor of science, including immunotherapy. But he says this proposition is not the way to fund it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:58] \u003c/em>If you look at NIH support for biomedical research in general or immunology research, there are several institutions in California that are the national leaders, but because of the sort of arbitrary criteria in Proposition 38, they’re not eligible to compete. And we think that’s not right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:17] \u003c/em>So science grants are usually awarded based on an open, competitive process. People have to have a proven track record. He says it’s a good idea to spread that kind of research across different institutions, so you have different people with different ideas and different methodology. But half of the money for Prop 38 goes directly to one brand new institute that is barely off the ground yet, and it has zero track record. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:47] \u003c/em>I think [if] taxpayers are going to have to repay these bonds. We think that should be a fair competition that allows all of these excellent institutions in California to have an opportunity to be in that competition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:59] \u003c/em>The opponents would really point out it’s only for immunotherapy and immunology research. So if you think that there are other kinds of health priorities, like mental illness or kidney disease or other kinds treatments, those are not included here. The other people speaking out against Prop 38, they’re a very interesting group. They are financial analysts who used to work at the LAO. That’s the Legislative Analyst’s Office. And this is a nonpartisan state agency. It’s tasked with evaluating proposed legislation and ballot measures like this one. And they are trained to never take a stand on political issues. And in this case, three retired analysts from the LAOs are breaking that wall, because of their concerns on Prop 38.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:56] \u003c/em>Hi. I’m Dan Carson. I’m here today as a cancer survivor myself, who is obviously not against good medical research.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:05] \u003c/em>So one of them is Dan Carson. He ran the health section of the LAO back in 2004 when another bond measure was on the ballot to fund stem cell research. So proponents said the $3 billion for that initiative would be paid back by all the new stem cell discoveries that researchers made with the money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:26] \u003c/em>In fact, as our analysis at the time made really clear, the state eventually received only a tiny fraction of the billions of dollars we were promised. So here we go again with Prop 38. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>The opponents of Prop 38 take issue with one of the main claims that the supporters of Prop 38 have, which is they say that the proposition will be cost neutral, that the money that California borrows and spends on the research will be made back by revenues from all of the scientific discoveries that they made. The LAO analysts say the math just doesn’t add up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:08] \u003c/em>Oh, once again, we’re being promised in this initiative and by its advocates that will quote, pay for itself with no net cost to the state or taxpayers, closed quote. I’m here to tell you that after reviewing the fine print of this ballot measure, that won’t happen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:32] \u003c/em>April, what’s spending on Prop 38 looking like on either side, the yes and the no side? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:38] \u003c/em>So the Yes on Prop 38 campaign has raised about $27 million so far, and that comes mainly from Gary Michaelson and another billionaire who have donated to the same institute that would be the main beneficiary of the Prop 38 funds. The no side has not raised any money so far.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:59] \u003c/em>It seems like we as voters are sort of being asked to decide how scientific research should happen almost and the best way to go about that. How do you think voters should sort of navigate the question being asked before them? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:15] \u003c/em>It’s such a tricky one to put voters in a position of having to become experts on a field of science that maybe they haven’t even heard about. Totally, that’s how I feel. Right. You know, I think on its face, Prop 38 is very appealing and we’ve seen various ballot measures over the years that are healthcare oriented and we find that they often play well. For people who feel really strongly about this area of research, they may feel happy to have the opportunity to vote on something like this and set aside a pot of money that is just for this kind of research. On the other hand, the way that this proposition is worded and the way the money would be distributed looks very, very different from the kind of process that’s used at the federal level. So you’re not just creating a new fund for stability, you’re actually creating a new way of how that science gets funded and how the money gets distributed. Propositions like this, you could say are direct democracy, but in another way, they also circumvent that other democratic process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:35] \u003c/em>Well, April Dombosky, thank you so much for breaking this down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Thanks, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:42] \u003c/em>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means the state could borrow $8.4 billion to support medical research in immunology and immunotherapy. A no vote means the state cannot borrow 8.4 billion for immunology, and immunotherapy research. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:02] \u003c/em>And that’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. If this series is helping you get educated on all the statewide props, we sure hope that you’re going to share them with your friends and family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:16] \u003c/em>The link is kqed.org slash propfest and we’ll be dropping new breakdowns until October 9th. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:24] \u003c/em>PropFest is made possible thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Pauline Bartolone, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevara, Gabriela Glueck. Christopher Beale, Alan Montecillo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:35] \u003c/em>And me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:37] \u003c/em>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien. Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:46] \u003c/em>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:51] \u003c/em>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:15] \u003c/em>In simple terms, immunotherapy is individualized treatment designed to harness a patient’s immune system to fight disease. For some, immunotherapy has been life-changing. And voters are being asked this November whether to fund immunology and immunotherapy research with one very specific beneficiary in mind. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:15] \u003c/em>In simple terms, immunotherapy is individualized treatment designed to harness a patient’s immune system to fight disease. For some, immunotherapy has been life-changing. And voters are being asked this November whether to fund immunology and immunotherapy research with one very specific beneficiary in mind. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:38] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:38] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:41] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:41] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>And welcome to Prop Fest. A collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down all 14 statewide propositions on your ballot this year November. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>And welcome to Prop Fest. A collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down all 14 statewide propositions on your ballot this year November. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>And we’re back at it again with Proposition 38. Here’s how it reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>And we’re back at it again with Proposition 38. Here’s how it reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reporter: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>Prop 38 authorizes bonds for immunology medical research. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reporter: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>Prop 38 authorizes bonds for immunology medical research. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>Here to walk us through all of this is KQED Health Correspondent April Dembosky. April, first of all, what is Prop 38 all about? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:16] \u003c/em>Prop 38 is a bond measure that would fund immunology and immunotherapy research. It would allow the state to borrow $8.4 billion and distribute it to nonprofit research centers that are studying immunotherapy treatments for cancer, heart disease, and Alzheimer’s. The measure is expected to cost the state about $500 million a year for 20 years in bond repayments. And about $4 billion of that would be interest payments on top of the original 8.4 billion for a total cost of about $12 billion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:16] \u003c/em>Prop 38 is a bond measure that would fund immunology and immunotherapy research. It would allow the state to borrow $8.4 billion and distribute it to nonprofit research centers that are studying immunotherapy treatments for cancer, heart disease, and Alzheimer’s. The measure is expected to cost the state about $500 million a year for 20 years in bond repayments. And about $4 billion of that would be interest payments on top of the original 8.4 billion for a total cost of about $12 billion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>There is sort of an interesting story about how this came on the ballot in the first place, right? Can you actually talk about why voters are even being asked to fund immunotherapy in this year’s election?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:11] \u003c/em>Prop 38 was the brainchild of a philanthropist named Gary Michelson. He raised the money to collect the signatures and put Prop 38 on the ballot. Something that’s really interesting about the initiative is how it’s worded. The language is very careful. It lists very strict criteria for the type of academic institution that should receive half of the money. This criteria is so specific. That only one university in the state meets the criteria, and that is UCLA. Half the funds would go toward launching a new immunology institute at UCLA, and the other half would be awarded through competitive grants to other institutes also in California. And so, as it turns out, Michelson has already donated $120 million of his own money to establish a new institute for immunotherapy at UCLA. It’s called the California Institute for Immunology and Immunotherapy. That same institution would also be the touch point for all the research. So the other half of the funding that would get distributed in competitive grants would all be sort of centered at UCLA. So it’s safe to say that this is on the ballot because a very wealthy philanthropist put it there as a way to finance a research institution focused on his interest, which is immunology and immunotherapy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:11] \u003c/em>Prop 38 was the brainchild of a philanthropist named Gary Michelson. He raised the money to collect the signatures and put Prop 38 on the ballot. Something that’s really interesting about the initiative is how it’s worded. The language is very careful. It lists very strict criteria for the type of academic institution that should receive half of the money. This criteria is so specific. That only one university in the state meets the criteria, and that is UCLA. Half the funds would go toward launching a new immunology institute at UCLA, and the other half would be awarded through competitive grants to other institutes also in California. And so, as it turns out, Michelson has already donated $120 million of his own money to establish a new institute for immunotherapy at UCLA. It’s called the California Institute for Immunology and Immunotherapy. That same institution would also be the touch point for all the research. So the other half of the funding that would get distributed in competitive grants would all be sort of centered at UCLA. So it’s safe to say that this is on the ballot because a very wealthy philanthropist put it there as a way to finance a research institution focused on his interest, which is immunology and immunotherapy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:50] \u003c/em>Okay, April, so Prop 38 was put on the ballot by this wealthy philanthropist, Gary Michelson, and it’s written in this way that would, it sounds like directly benefit a research institute at UCLA that he’s helping to fund. So clearly he has some skin in the game here. Is Prop 38 getting much support from elsewhere? Like how else is the pro-Prop 38 side kind of shaping up?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:50] \u003c/em>Okay, April, so Prop 38 was put on the ballot by this wealthy philanthropist, Gary Michelson, and it’s written in this way that would, it sounds like directly benefit a research institute at UCLA that he’s helping to fund. So clearly he has some skin in the game here. Is Prop 38 getting much support from elsewhere? Like how else is the pro-Prop 38 side kind of shaping up?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:18] \u003c/em>There’s a long list of foundations and advocacy groups that have signed on in support of Prop 38, places like Blood Cancer United, the Melanoma Research Alliance, the Alzheimer’s Association, the ALS Association, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson’s Research. So these are groups that hope and believe that new immunotherapies could be developed to treat these specific diseases. Proponents also say this initiative is necessary because federal funding for this kind of research has become unreliable under the current administration. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:18] \u003c/em>There’s a long list of foundations and advocacy groups that have signed on in support of Prop 38, places like Blood Cancer United, the Melanoma Research Alliance, the Alzheimer’s Association, the ALS Association, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson’s Research. So these are groups that hope and believe that new immunotherapies could be developed to treat these specific diseases. Proponents also say this initiative is necessary because federal funding for this kind of research has become unreliable under the current administration. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:58] \u003c/em>The big thing right now is that current CAR T therapy is really expensive. It’s not as efficient as we want it to be. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:58] \u003c/em>The big thing right now is that current CAR T therapy is really expensive. It’s not as efficient as we want it to be. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:05] \u003c/em>So I spoke to one researcher who was working on a project funded by the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. Her name is Jillian McCool, and she was working at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory studying vaccines and a kind of therapy for cancer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:05] \u003c/em>So I spoke to one researcher who was working on a project funded by the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. Her name is Jillian McCool, and she was working at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory studying vaccines and a kind of therapy for cancer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:20] \u003c/em>We basically can take your immune cells and we can take them out of your body and we an alter them so they’re better fit and better suited to fight cancer cells specifically. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:20] \u003c/em>We basically can take your immune cells and we can take them out of your body and we an alter them so they’re better fit and better suited to fight cancer cells specifically. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:29] \u003c/em>And then some of their grants ran out after they reached the end of the term, but then some of the funding was paused because of the most recent government shutdown. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:29] \u003c/em>And then some of their grants ran out after they reached the end of the term, but then some of the funding was paused because of the most recent government shutdown. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:38] \u003c/em>All of the sudden we have this weird rhetoric around vaccines and all of the sudden there’s this new administration coming in that’s kind of pushing that rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:38] \u003c/em>All of the sudden we have this weird rhetoric around vaccines and all of the sudden there’s this new administration coming in that’s kind of pushing that rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:47] \u003c/em>McCool says about 100 scientists were laid off, including her. She was out of work for a year and a half. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:47] \u003c/em>McCool says about 100 scientists were laid off, including her. She was out of work for a year and a half. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:54] \u003c/em>And then the public is no longer trusting scientists and what they have to say in the data we’ve collected, it kind of makes you question your whole career in general. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:54] \u003c/em>And then the public is no longer trusting scientists and what they have to say in the data we’ve collected, it kind of makes you question your whole career in general. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:05] \u003c/em>So it’s personal for McCool, but she says Prop 38 is a way to correct what’s happening at the federal level and protect the jobs of lots of other scientists. She also says, you know, California is a center of excellence in this kind of research, and so it makes sense to root it here. She also points out that the measure is designed to be cost neutral, with 10% of revenues generated from successful discoveries being funneled back to the state. Californians would also be entitled to a 20% discount on any new therapies that are generated from the bond money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:05] \u003c/em>So it’s personal for McCool, but she says Prop 38 is a way to correct what’s happening at the federal level and protect the jobs of lots of other scientists. She also says, you know, California is a center of excellence in this kind of research, and so it makes sense to root it here. She also points out that the measure is designed to be cost neutral, with 10% of revenues generated from successful discoveries being funneled back to the state. Californians would also be entitled to a 20% discount on any new therapies that are generated from the bond money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:41] \u003c/em>And a big part of immunotherapy research is directed towards cancer research and you actually met a cancer patient who’s pretty gung-ho about Prop 38, right? Tell me about her. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:41] \u003c/em>And a big part of immunotherapy research is directed towards cancer research and you actually met a cancer patient who’s pretty gung-ho about Prop 38, right? Tell me about her. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>My name is Laurie Adami and I live in Los Angeles, California. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>My name is Laurie Adami and I live in Los Angeles, California. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:57] \u003c/em>Laurie was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It’s a kind of blood cancer, and this was 20 years ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:57] \u003c/em>Laurie was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It’s a kind of blood cancer, and this was 20 years ago. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:04] \u003c/em>And when I got sick and I ended up losing my career as a result of my very long battle with cancer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:04] \u003c/em>And when I got sick and I ended up losing my career as a result of my very long battle with cancer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:13] \u003c/em>Several years ago, she enrolled in a clinical trial for an immunotherapy called CAR-T. So, Laurie had one infusion of this immunotherapy about eight years ago and her cancer has not come back since. Now, she’s only one person. You know, it’s important to point out there’s still a large proportion of patients who participated in these trials who did not respond in the same way. But as you can imagine, Laurie is pretty gung-ho for Prop 38. Because of the prospect that it could fund more research and develop more treatments like this to fight other kinds of cancers and other diseases and help more people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:13] \u003c/em>Several years ago, she enrolled in a clinical trial for an immunotherapy called CAR-T. So, Laurie had one infusion of this immunotherapy about eight years ago and her cancer has not come back since. Now, she’s only one person. You know, it’s important to point out there’s still a large proportion of patients who participated in these trials who did not respond in the same way. But as you can imagine, Laurie is pretty gung-ho for Prop 38. Because of the prospect that it could fund more research and develop more treatments like this to fight other kinds of cancers and other diseases and help more people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:54] \u003c/em>You know, not every family is gonna be affected by cancer, but every family is gonna affected by these other diseases. And so I am a huge proponent and supporter because immunotherapy saved my life. So why wouldn’t I believe? And why wouldn’t I want more patients to be able to access the type of treatment that finally saved my live? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:54] \u003c/em>You know, not every family is gonna be affected by cancer, but every family is gonna affected by these other diseases. And so I am a huge proponent and supporter because immunotherapy saved my life. So why wouldn’t I believe? And why wouldn’t I want more patients to be able to access the type of treatment that finally saved my live? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:23] \u003c/em>We’ll have more on Proposition 38 right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PropFest, consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:23] \u003c/em>We’ll have more on Proposition 38 right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PropFest, consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:47] \u003c/em>And we’re back breaking down Proposition 38 with KQED’s April Dembosky. April, you talked about the various different groups supporting Prop 38, including a patient who really believes in the power of immunotherapy research to potentially save lives. So who’s coming out against Prop 38 and what is their argument? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:47] \u003c/em>And we’re back breaking down Proposition 38 with KQED’s April Dembosky. April, you talked about the various different groups supporting Prop 38, including a patient who really believes in the power of immunotherapy research to potentially save lives. So who’s coming out against Prop 38 and what is their argument? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:10] \u003c/em>Yeah, so there’s a very small group of opponents. They’re pretty much all volunteers. It’s very grassroots. And they have organized to point out what they see as the weaknesses and even what they might call the dangers of Prop 38\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:10] \u003c/em>Yeah, so there’s a very small group of opponents. They’re pretty much all volunteers. It’s very grassroots. And they have organized to point out what they see as the weaknesses and even what they might call the dangers of Prop 38\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>I just think that there are inherent conflicts of interest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>I just think that there are inherent conflicts of interest. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:58] \u003c/em>If you look at NIH support for biomedical research in general or immunology research, there are several institutions in California that are the national leaders, but because of the sort of arbitrary criteria in Proposition 38, they’re not eligible to compete. And we think that’s not right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:17] \u003c/em>So science grants are usually awarded based on an open, competitive process. People have to have a proven track record. He says it’s a good idea to spread that kind of research across different institutions, so you have different people with different ideas and different methodology. But half of the money for Prop 38 goes directly to one brand new institute that is barely off the ground yet, and it has zero track record. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:47] \u003c/em>I think [if] taxpayers are going to have to repay these bonds. We think that should be a fair competition that allows all of these excellent institutions in California to have an opportunity to be in that competition. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:59] \u003c/em>The opponents would really point out it’s only for immunotherapy and immunology research. So if you think that there are other kinds of health priorities, like mental illness or kidney disease or other kinds treatments, those are not included here. The other people speaking out against Prop 38, they’re a very interesting group. They are financial analysts who used to work at the LAO. That’s the Legislative Analyst’s Office. And this is a nonpartisan state agency. It’s tasked with evaluating proposed legislation and ballot measures like this one. And they are trained to never take a stand on political issues. And in this case, three retired analysts from the LAOs are breaking that wall, because of their concerns on Prop 38.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:59] \u003c/em>The opponents would really point out it’s only for immunotherapy and immunology research. So if you think that there are other kinds of health priorities, like mental illness or kidney disease or other kinds treatments, those are not included here. The other people speaking out against Prop 38, they’re a very interesting group. They are financial analysts who used to work at the LAO. That’s the Legislative Analyst’s Office. And this is a nonpartisan state agency. It’s tasked with evaluating proposed legislation and ballot measures like this one. And they are trained to never take a stand on political issues. And in this case, three retired analysts from the LAOs are breaking that wall, because of their concerns on Prop 38.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:56] \u003c/em>Hi. I’m Dan Carson. I’m here today as a cancer survivor myself, who is obviously not against good medical research.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:05] \u003c/em>So one of them is Dan Carson. He ran the health section of the LAO back in 2004 when another bond measure was on the ballot to fund stem cell research. So proponents said the $3 billion for that initiative would be paid back by all the new stem cell discoveries that researchers made with the money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:05] \u003c/em>So one of them is Dan Carson. He ran the health section of the LAO back in 2004 when another bond measure was on the ballot to fund stem cell research. So proponents said the $3 billion for that initiative would be paid back by all the new stem cell discoveries that researchers made with the money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:26] \u003c/em>In fact, as our analysis at the time made really clear, the state eventually received only a tiny fraction of the billions of dollars we were promised. So here we go again with Prop 38. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>The opponents of Prop 38 take issue with one of the main claims that the supporters of Prop 38 have, which is they say that the proposition will be cost neutral, that the money that California borrows and spends on the research will be made back by revenues from all of the scientific discoveries that they made. The LAO analysts say the math just doesn’t add up. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:08] \u003c/em>Oh, once again, we’re being promised in this initiative and by its advocates that will quote, pay for itself with no net cost to the state or taxpayers, closed quote. I’m here to tell you that after reviewing the fine print of this ballot measure, that won’t happen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:08] \u003c/em>Oh, once again, we’re being promised in this initiative and by its advocates that will quote, pay for itself with no net cost to the state or taxpayers, closed quote. I’m here to tell you that after reviewing the fine print of this ballot measure, that won’t happen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:32] \u003c/em>April, what’s spending on Prop 38 looking like on either side, the yes and the no side? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:32] \u003c/em>April, what’s spending on Prop 38 looking like on either side, the yes and the no side? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:38] \u003c/em>So the Yes on Prop 38 campaign has raised about $27 million so far, and that comes mainly from Gary Michaelson and another billionaire who have donated to the same institute that would be the main beneficiary of the Prop 38 funds. The no side has not raised any money so far.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:38] \u003c/em>So the Yes on Prop 38 campaign has raised about $27 million so far, and that comes mainly from Gary Michaelson and another billionaire who have donated to the same institute that would be the main beneficiary of the Prop 38 funds. The no side has not raised any money so far.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:59] \u003c/em>It seems like we as voters are sort of being asked to decide how scientific research should happen almost and the best way to go about that. How do you think voters should sort of navigate the question being asked before them? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:15] \u003c/em>It’s such a tricky one to put voters in a position of having to become experts on a field of science that maybe they haven’t even heard about. Totally, that’s how I feel. Right. You know, I think on its face, Prop 38 is very appealing and we’ve seen various ballot measures over the years that are healthcare oriented and we find that they often play well. For people who feel really strongly about this area of research, they may feel happy to have the opportunity to vote on something like this and set aside a pot of money that is just for this kind of research. On the other hand, the way that this proposition is worded and the way the money would be distributed looks very, very different from the kind of process that’s used at the federal level. So you’re not just creating a new fund for stability, you’re actually creating a new way of how that science gets funded and how the money gets distributed. Propositions like this, you could say are direct democracy, but in another way, they also circumvent that other democratic process.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:15] \u003c/em>It’s such a tricky one to put voters in a position of having to become experts on a field of science that maybe they haven’t even heard about. Totally, that’s how I feel. Right. You know, I think on its face, Prop 38 is very appealing and we’ve seen various ballot measures over the years that are healthcare oriented and we find that they often play well. For people who feel really strongly about this area of research, they may feel happy to have the opportunity to vote on something like this and set aside a pot of money that is just for this kind of research. On the other hand, the way that this proposition is worded and the way the money would be distributed looks very, very different from the kind of process that’s used at the federal level. So you’re not just creating a new fund for stability, you’re actually creating a new way of how that science gets funded and how the money gets distributed. Propositions like this, you could say are direct democracy, but in another way, they also circumvent that other democratic process.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:35] \u003c/em>Well, April Dombosky, thank you so much for breaking this down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:35] \u003c/em>Well, April Dombosky, thank you so much for breaking this down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Thanks, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Thanks, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:42] \u003c/em>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means the state could borrow $8.4 billion to support medical research in immunology and immunotherapy. A no vote means the state cannot borrow 8.4 billion for immunology, and immunotherapy research. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:42] \u003c/em>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means the state could borrow $8.4 billion to support medical research in immunology and immunotherapy. A no vote means the state cannot borrow 8.4 billion for immunology, and immunotherapy research. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:02] \u003c/em>And that’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. If this series is helping you get educated on all the statewide props, we sure hope that you’re going to share them with your friends and family. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:02] \u003c/em>And that’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. If this series is helping you get educated on all the statewide props, we sure hope that you’re going to share them with your friends and family. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:16] \u003c/em>The link is kqed.org slash propfest and we’ll be dropping new breakdowns until October 9th. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:16] \u003c/em>The link is kqed.org slash propfest and we’ll be dropping new breakdowns until October 9th. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:24] \u003c/em>PropFest is made possible thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Pauline Bartolone, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevara, Gabriela Glueck. Christopher Beale, Alan Montecillo. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:24] \u003c/em>PropFest is made possible thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Pauline Bartolone, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevara, Gabriela Glueck. Christopher Beale, Alan Montecillo. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:35] \u003c/em>And me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:35] \u003c/em>And me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:37] \u003c/em>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien. Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:37] \u003c/em>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien. Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:46] \u003c/em>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:51] \u003c/em>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:51] \u003c/em>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:00] \u003c/em>Immunotherapy has been around for a really long time. Things like vaccines are considered part of immunology, but it also includes more recent innovations like newer treatments for blood and skin cancers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:15] \u003c/em>In simple terms, immunotherapy is individualized treatment designed to harness a patient’s immune system to fight disease. For some, immunotherapy has been life-changing. And voters are being asked this November whether to fund immunology and immunotherapy research with one very specific beneficiary in mind. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:38] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:41] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:44] \u003c/em>And welcome to Prop Fest. A collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious, where we break down all 14 statewide propositions on your ballot this year November. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:00:54] \u003c/em>And we’re back at it again with Proposition 38. Here’s how it reads on your ballot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reporter: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>Prop 38 authorizes bonds for immunology medical research. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:08] \u003c/em>Here to walk us through all of this is KQED Health Correspondent April Dembosky. April, first of all, what is Prop 38 all about? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:16] \u003c/em>Prop 38 is a bond measure that would fund immunology and immunotherapy research. It would allow the state to borrow $8.4 billion and distribute it to nonprofit research centers that are studying immunotherapy treatments for cancer, heart disease, and Alzheimer’s. The measure is expected to cost the state about $500 million a year for 20 years in bond repayments. And about $4 billion of that would be interest payments on top of the original 8.4 billion for a total cost of about $12 billion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>There is sort of an interesting story about how this came on the ballot in the first place, right? Can you actually talk about why voters are even being asked to fund immunotherapy in this year’s election?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:02:11] \u003c/em>Prop 38 was the brainchild of a philanthropist named Gary Michelson. He raised the money to collect the signatures and put Prop 38 on the ballot. Something that’s really interesting about the initiative is how it’s worded. The language is very careful. It lists very strict criteria for the type of academic institution that should receive half of the money. This criteria is so specific. That only one university in the state meets the criteria, and that is UCLA. Half the funds would go toward launching a new immunology institute at UCLA, and the other half would be awarded through competitive grants to other institutes also in California. And so, as it turns out, Michelson has already donated $120 million of his own money to establish a new institute for immunotherapy at UCLA. It’s called the California Institute for Immunology and Immunotherapy. That same institution would also be the touch point for all the research. So the other half of the funding that would get distributed in competitive grants would all be sort of centered at UCLA. So it’s safe to say that this is on the ballot because a very wealthy philanthropist put it there as a way to finance a research institution focused on his interest, which is immunology and immunotherapy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:03:50] \u003c/em>Okay, April, so Prop 38 was put on the ballot by this wealthy philanthropist, Gary Michelson, and it’s written in this way that would, it sounds like directly benefit a research institute at UCLA that he’s helping to fund. So clearly he has some skin in the game here. Is Prop 38 getting much support from elsewhere? Like how else is the pro-Prop 38 side kind of shaping up?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:18] \u003c/em>There’s a long list of foundations and advocacy groups that have signed on in support of Prop 38, places like Blood Cancer United, the Melanoma Research Alliance, the Alzheimer’s Association, the ALS Association, the National Multiple Sclerosis Society, the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson’s Research. So these are groups that hope and believe that new immunotherapies could be developed to treat these specific diseases. Proponents also say this initiative is necessary because federal funding for this kind of research has become unreliable under the current administration. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:04:58] \u003c/em>The big thing right now is that current CAR T therapy is really expensive. It’s not as efficient as we want it to be. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:05] \u003c/em>So I spoke to one researcher who was working on a project funded by the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. Her name is Jillian McCool, and she was working at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory studying vaccines and a kind of therapy for cancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:20] \u003c/em>We basically can take your immune cells and we can take them out of your body and we an alter them so they’re better fit and better suited to fight cancer cells specifically. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:29] \u003c/em>And then some of their grants ran out after they reached the end of the term, but then some of the funding was paused because of the most recent government shutdown. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:38] \u003c/em>All of the sudden we have this weird rhetoric around vaccines and all of the sudden there’s this new administration coming in that’s kind of pushing that rhetoric. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:47] \u003c/em>McCool says about 100 scientists were laid off, including her. She was out of work for a year and a half. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jillian McCool: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:05:54] \u003c/em>And then the public is no longer trusting scientists and what they have to say in the data we’ve collected, it kind of makes you question your whole career in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:05] \u003c/em>So it’s personal for McCool, but she says Prop 38 is a way to correct what’s happening at the federal level and protect the jobs of lots of other scientists. She also says, you know, California is a center of excellence in this kind of research, and so it makes sense to root it here. She also points out that the measure is designed to be cost neutral, with 10% of revenues generated from successful discoveries being funneled back to the state. Californians would also be entitled to a 20% discount on any new therapies that are generated from the bond money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:41] \u003c/em>And a big part of immunotherapy research is directed towards cancer research and you actually met a cancer patient who’s pretty gung-ho about Prop 38, right? Tell me about her. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>My name is Laurie Adami and I live in Los Angeles, California. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:06:57] \u003c/em>Laurie was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It’s a kind of blood cancer, and this was 20 years ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:04] \u003c/em>And when I got sick and I ended up losing my career as a result of my very long battle with cancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:13] \u003c/em>Several years ago, she enrolled in a clinical trial for an immunotherapy called CAR-T. So, Laurie had one infusion of this immunotherapy about eight years ago and her cancer has not come back since. Now, she’s only one person. You know, it’s important to point out there’s still a large proportion of patients who participated in these trials who did not respond in the same way. But as you can imagine, Laurie is pretty gung-ho for Prop 38. Because of the prospect that it could fund more research and develop more treatments like this to fight other kinds of cancers and other diseases and help more people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laurie Adami: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:07:54] \u003c/em>You know, not every family is gonna be affected by cancer, but every family is gonna affected by these other diseases. And so I am a huge proponent and supporter because immunotherapy saved my life. So why wouldn’t I believe? And why wouldn’t I want more patients to be able to access the type of treatment that finally saved my live? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:23] \u003c/em>We’ll have more on Proposition 38 right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PropFest, consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:08:47] \u003c/em>And we’re back breaking down Proposition 38 with KQED’s April Dembosky. April, you talked about the various different groups supporting Prop 38, including a patient who really believes in the power of immunotherapy research to potentially save lives. So who’s coming out against Prop 38 and what is their argument? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:10] \u003c/em>Yeah, so there’s a very small group of opponents. They’re pretty much all volunteers. It’s very grassroots. And they have organized to point out what they see as the weaknesses and even what they might call the dangers of Prop 38\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:26] \u003c/em>I just think that there are inherent conflicts of interest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:29] \u003c/em>The main one is Robert Kaplan. He’s a biomedical researcher and administrator at Stanford University School of Medicine. And he also worked at the NIH, the National Institutes of Health. So he has a lot of experience coordinating the kind of research that we’re talking about and at a really grand scale. So he says he supports biomedical research. He’s in favor of science, including immunotherapy. But he says this proposition is not the way to fund it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:09:58] \u003c/em>If you look at NIH support for biomedical research in general or immunology research, there are several institutions in California that are the national leaders, but because of the sort of arbitrary criteria in Proposition 38, they’re not eligible to compete. And we think that’s not right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:17] \u003c/em>So science grants are usually awarded based on an open, competitive process. People have to have a proven track record. He says it’s a good idea to spread that kind of research across different institutions, so you have different people with different ideas and different methodology. But half of the money for Prop 38 goes directly to one brand new institute that is barely off the ground yet, and it has zero track record. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Kaplan: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:47] \u003c/em>I think [if] taxpayers are going to have to repay these bonds. We think that should be a fair competition that allows all of these excellent institutions in California to have an opportunity to be in that competition. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:10:59] \u003c/em>The opponents would really point out it’s only for immunotherapy and immunology research. So if you think that there are other kinds of health priorities, like mental illness or kidney disease or other kinds treatments, those are not included here. The other people speaking out against Prop 38, they’re a very interesting group. They are financial analysts who used to work at the LAO. That’s the Legislative Analyst’s Office. And this is a nonpartisan state agency. It’s tasked with evaluating proposed legislation and ballot measures like this one. And they are trained to never take a stand on political issues. And in this case, three retired analysts from the LAOs are breaking that wall, because of their concerns on Prop 38.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:11:56] \u003c/em>Hi. I’m Dan Carson. I’m here today as a cancer survivor myself, who is obviously not against good medical research.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:05] \u003c/em>So one of them is Dan Carson. He ran the health section of the LAO back in 2004 when another bond measure was on the ballot to fund stem cell research. So proponents said the $3 billion for that initiative would be paid back by all the new stem cell discoveries that researchers made with the money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:26] \u003c/em>In fact, as our analysis at the time made really clear, the state eventually received only a tiny fraction of the billions of dollars we were promised. So here we go again with Prop 38. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:12:41] \u003c/em>The opponents of Prop 38 take issue with one of the main claims that the supporters of Prop 38 have, which is they say that the proposition will be cost neutral, that the money that California borrows and spends on the research will be made back by revenues from all of the scientific discoveries that they made. The LAO analysts say the math just doesn’t add up. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dan Carson: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:08] \u003c/em>Oh, once again, we’re being promised in this initiative and by its advocates that will quote, pay for itself with no net cost to the state or taxpayers, closed quote. I’m here to tell you that after reviewing the fine print of this ballot measure, that won’t happen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:32] \u003c/em>April, what’s spending on Prop 38 looking like on either side, the yes and the no side? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:38] \u003c/em>So the Yes on Prop 38 campaign has raised about $27 million so far, and that comes mainly from Gary Michaelson and another billionaire who have donated to the same institute that would be the main beneficiary of the Prop 38 funds. The no side has not raised any money so far.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:13:59] \u003c/em>It seems like we as voters are sort of being asked to decide how scientific research should happen almost and the best way to go about that. How do you think voters should sort of navigate the question being asked before them? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:14:15] \u003c/em>It’s such a tricky one to put voters in a position of having to become experts on a field of science that maybe they haven’t even heard about. Totally, that’s how I feel. Right. You know, I think on its face, Prop 38 is very appealing and we’ve seen various ballot measures over the years that are healthcare oriented and we find that they often play well. For people who feel really strongly about this area of research, they may feel happy to have the opportunity to vote on something like this and set aside a pot of money that is just for this kind of research. On the other hand, the way that this proposition is worded and the way the money would be distributed looks very, very different from the kind of process that’s used at the federal level. So you’re not just creating a new fund for stability, you’re actually creating a new way of how that science gets funded and how the money gets distributed. Propositions like this, you could say are direct democracy, but in another way, they also circumvent that other democratic process.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:35] \u003c/em>Well, April Dombosky, thank you so much for breaking this down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:40] \u003c/em>Thanks, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:15:42] \u003c/em>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means the state could borrow $8.4 billion to support medical research in immunology and immunotherapy. A no vote means the state cannot borrow 8.4 billion for immunology, and immunotherapy research. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:02] \u003c/em>And that’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. If this series is helping you get educated on all the statewide props, we sure hope that you’re going to share them with your friends and family. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:16] \u003c/em>The link is kqed.org slash propfest and we’ll be dropping new breakdowns until October 9th. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:24] \u003c/em>PropFest is made possible thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Pauline Bartolone, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevara, Gabriela Glueck. Christopher Beale, Alan Montecillo. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:35] \u003c/em>And me, Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:37] \u003c/em>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien. Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:46] \u003c/em>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:16:51] \u003c/em>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[00:17:08] \u003c/em>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] You may remember that in 2021, California voters were asked whether or not to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] Prop 5 – Changes recall election process for statewide officers\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] Hey, how’s it going?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] Good. So this proposition that we’re talking about today pertains to recall reform. Before we dive in here, how exactly do recalls for people in statewide office currently work in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] And as you just mentioned, and just to clarify for voters, Prop 5 specifically pertains to recalls for statewide office, right? Not local office. So what kinds of elected positions are we talking about here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:55] The recall campaign against Governor Gray-Davis is gathering steam with the launch of the\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] And let’s get into the politics of this a little bit, Guy. Who else is sort of pushing for Prop 5 to be passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to \u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\">https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] You may remember that in 2021, California voters were asked whether or not to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] Prop 5 – Changes recall election process for statewide officers\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] Good. So this proposition that we’re talking about today pertains to recall reform. Before we dive in here, how exactly do recalls for people in statewide office currently work in California?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] And as you just mentioned, and just to clarify for voters, Prop 5 specifically pertains to recalls for statewide office, right? Not local office. So what kinds of elected positions are we talking about here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] And let’s get into the politics of this a little bit, Guy. Who else is sort of pushing for Prop 5 to be passed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to \u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\">https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] You may remember that in 2021, California voters were asked whether or not to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] Prop 5 – Changes recall election process for statewide officers\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] Hey, how’s it going?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] Good. So this proposition that we’re talking about today pertains to recall reform. Before we dive in here, how exactly do recalls for people in statewide office currently work in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] And as you just mentioned, and just to clarify for voters, Prop 5 specifically pertains to recalls for statewide office, right? Not local office. So what kinds of elected positions are we talking about here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:55] The recall campaign against Governor Gray-Davis is gathering steam with the launch of the\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] And let’s get into the politics of this a little bit, Guy. Who else is sort of pushing for Prop 5 to be passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to \u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\">https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] California has what’s known as a progressive tax system. Basically, the more money you make, the more you pay in income taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:09] For years, California voters have approved certain tax rates for high-income earners. And now, Prop 3 could make some of those rates permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:20] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest. For two weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot, so you can vote smart this November.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Today, we’re talking about Proposition 3. A bill that aims to lock in tax rates for high-income earners to pay for schools and health care in California. Here’s how it’ll read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:00:56] Prop 3 provides permanent funding for schools and health care by extending existing tax on high incomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:04] Here to walk us through Proposition 3 is politics and government correspondent Guy Marzorati. What’s up, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Hey, you may remember me from Prop 2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] I sure do. Thank you so much again for joining us on this one. This one seems pretty straightforward, I gotta say. But walk us through what Proposition 3 might do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:24] Yeah, so this would permanently extend California’s current income tax rates on our top earners. So back in 2012, California voters approved a new higher tax bracket for the top 2% of income earners, California. Voters extended those taxes in 2016. Now it’s on the ballot again to make it permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:45] Who are we talking about when we say high earners in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah, that’s a great question. So the folks who pay these taxes that are being proposed to be permanent under Proposition 3 are really just the top 2% of California income tax filers. Those individuals and families pay a marginal tax rate of a little over 10% on income above $371,000 for an individual or $743,000 for a family. And there are higher rates of just over 11% and 12% as you go up the income ladder to families making more than $1.5 million.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] So when you’re saying top earners also, just to be clear, we’re not talking about the billionaire’s tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] That’s right. No, we are not talking about Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax. That is a measure about overall wealth for California billionaires. Proposition 3 is just about income taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] And how much money could this bring in for California every year? And what are the kinds of things that this money would pay for?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:52] Yeah, so the California Budget and Policy Center has went back and looked at what kind of impact these higher tax rates have had. And basically, since they were enacted in 2012, these higher taxes have brought in about $120 billion for the state. In recent years, that’s been about $10 billion a year, so roughly like 4% of the overall state general fund. And so the big winners of these taxes are schools and health care because the vast majority of California state spending from the general fund goes to schools and goes to health care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:27] And when you say health, Guy, you mean health and human services, so things like Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:33] Yeah, so the biggest piece of that is Medi-Cal, which is our Medicaid system in California, basically our healthcare safety net for low-income working-class Californians.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:45] And let’s get into the politics of this measure. Who are the main proponents of preposition three and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:53] So the main proponents of Proposition 3 are Democrats and Democrat-aligned groups, specifically the California Teachers Association, which is the biggest single proponent of Proposition 3. Their argument is these taxes are working. We’ve had them in place for more than a decade. They’re bringing in billions of dollars, and they really have championed California’s progressive tax system, saying it’s fair for the folks who earn the most income in state to pay at a higher rate. They’re also the biggest beneficiaries of these taxes. Again, the biggest slice of the pie for a California tax revenue is going to schools. And so I think it’s no surprise that you see the state’s biggest teachers unions getting behind Proposition 3 and wanting to make it permanent. Here’s David Goldberg, who’s president of the California Teachers Association, making an appeal for Prop 3 on Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Goldberg \u003c/strong>[00:04:45] Prop 3 will make permanent an already existing tax on wealthy Californians. We’re making out like gangbusters right now. We have to make the case to make sure that people know that investing and voting for Prop 3 is investing in us, in our communities, in our students, in our families, and in education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:05] And then the California Budget and Policy Center has said that if the income tax on top earners doesn’t extend, the state’s income tax would become more regressive. Can you explain what they mean by that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] Yeah, so basically the way that the state’s income tax system is set up right now is you have top earners paying at a higher rate, not just paying more because they earn more, but actually paying at higher rate than lower income earners. And so what that does is it creates a system that supporters say is fair, that you have people who are making the most money, paying a higher share into the state government. What that also does create though is more volatility because the people who were who the largest share of state taxation, it’s a smaller group. So if the stock market goes down or the economy goes down and that group is affected, you’re gonna see these swings up and down in state tax revenue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] Or if our top earners leave California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:07] Yes, and that’s I mean, this this kind of ties into the arguments that we’re seeing around Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, but this idea that if you know those high earners leave the state, then that could have an outsize impact on how much money the state is able to bring in because the state is relying so much on that kind of smaller group of wealthy individuals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:31] We’ll have more on Proposition 3 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. If you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider supporting the journalism we do here at KQED by becoming a sustaining member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:07] Who’s coming out against Proposition 3, and what’s the argument on their end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:12] Yeah, you really see an opposition from Republicans and kind of taxpayer advocacy groups, including the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, who have basically made the argument that Californians face too much of a burden in taxes, and that the state needs to start doing things to lower the tax burden on individuals. There is a group reform California led by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio. He has come out against Proposition 3, but also against Proposition 40, which is the billionaire wealth tax. And here he is kind of wrapping up his opposition to multiple tax ideas that are on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] I know some of you are probably saying, well, if it’s just going to apply to the rich, why not do it? They’re coming for you. But it also has a negative impact on our state budget. What happens when a high income earner leaves the state? Instead of paying a little bit more in taxes with the higher Prop 3 or Prop 40 tax rates, They take a hundred percent of their tax increment to another state and that state gets the revenue. We get zero.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] You also hear the argument that this tax was never meant to be permanent. When it was initially enacted back in 2012, it was championed by former Governor Jerry Brown. It came after Brown’s first two years in office where he really made some difficult cuts to state programs. And he turned to voters and said, look, I’ve been frugal. I’ve made these cuts. Now I need to ask you to pay more in order to kind of make the budget more stable. Voters approved that, but it was pitched as a temporary increase. Uh, that temporary increase was extended again in 2016 as a temporary increase. Now proposition three would make those higher income taxes permanent. So opponents of this say, you know, This is a bait and switch.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:13] Let’s talk about the money here. Is there anyone coming out to spend any money for or against this measure?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] We’ve seen funding for Proposition 3 overwhelmingly on the Yes campaign. There’s been over $40 million in support so far, and the vast majority of that — $33 million of the $43 million comes from the California Teachers Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:43] What about any of California’s highest earners, Guy? I mean, have they spoken out against this tax or have they been, for the most part, pretty quiet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:52] No, we really haven’t heard any kind of organized opposition to Proposition 3, nothing like the money that we’re seeing coming in in support of prop three, especially from the teachers unions. And I think a big reason for that is the richest Californians, they might be a little bit more focused on another measure, which is Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, we are seeing some of the wealthiest residents of the state organized against that. And really not as much of a big campaign around proposition three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] Yeah, and I mean, as you said earlier, this proposition builds on previous ballot initiatives that Californians have approved in the past. So how likely do you think is this one to pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:35] You know, we had initial support for this back in 2012. I think as this has just become part of the state budget and part of the way California taxation works, you’re likely to see voters kind of just like get used to it and say, look, this has been in place, you know, only the top 2% of income earners are paying this. I do think one potential iceberg for this measure is just voter confusion because we are seeing so many different measures on the ballot related to taxes. Maybe this gets confused or conflated with Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, and voters who are opposed to that turn against this. That’s speculation. But certainly, taking the last two elections where this was on the ballot, 2012 and 2016, voters said yes to this idea of taxing our highest income earners in California have more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] Guy, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] Yeah, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to\u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\"> https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] California has what’s known as a progressive tax system. Basically, the more money you make, the more you pay in income taxes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] California has what’s known as a progressive tax system. Basically, the more money you make, the more you pay in income taxes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:09] For years, California voters have approved certain tax rates for high-income earners. And now, Prop 3 could make some of those rates permanent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:09] For years, California voters have approved certain tax rates for high-income earners. And now, Prop 3 could make some of those rates permanent.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:20] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:20] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest. For two weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot, so you can vote smart this November.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest. For two weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot, so you can vote smart this November.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Today, we’re talking about Proposition 3. A bill that aims to lock in tax rates for high-income earners to pay for schools and health care in California. Here’s how it’ll read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Today, we’re talking about Proposition 3. A bill that aims to lock in tax rates for high-income earners to pay for schools and health care in California. Here’s how it’ll read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:00:56] Prop 3 provides permanent funding for schools and health care by extending existing tax on high incomes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:00:56] Prop 3 provides permanent funding for schools and health care by extending existing tax on high incomes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:04] Here to walk us through Proposition 3 is politics and government correspondent Guy Marzorati. What’s up, Guy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:04] Here to walk us through Proposition 3 is politics and government correspondent Guy Marzorati. What’s up, Guy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Hey, you may remember me from Prop 2.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Hey, you may remember me from Prop 2.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] I sure do. Thank you so much again for joining us on this one. This one seems pretty straightforward, I gotta say. But walk us through what Proposition 3 might do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] I sure do. Thank you so much again for joining us on this one. This one seems pretty straightforward, I gotta say. But walk us through what Proposition 3 might do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:24] Yeah, so this would permanently extend California’s current income tax rates on our top earners. So back in 2012, California voters approved a new higher tax bracket for the top 2% of income earners, California. Voters extended those taxes in 2016. Now it’s on the ballot again to make it permanent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:24] Yeah, so this would permanently extend California’s current income tax rates on our top earners. So back in 2012, California voters approved a new higher tax bracket for the top 2% of income earners, California. Voters extended those taxes in 2016. Now it’s on the ballot again to make it permanent.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:45] Who are we talking about when we say high earners in California?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:45] Who are we talking about when we say high earners in California?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah, that’s a great question. So the folks who pay these taxes that are being proposed to be permanent under Proposition 3 are really just the top 2% of California income tax filers. Those individuals and families pay a marginal tax rate of a little over 10% on income above $371,000 for an individual or $743,000 for a family. And there are higher rates of just over 11% and 12% as you go up the income ladder to families making more than $1.5 million.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah, that’s a great question. So the folks who pay these taxes that are being proposed to be permanent under Proposition 3 are really just the top 2% of California income tax filers. Those individuals and families pay a marginal tax rate of a little over 10% on income above $371,000 for an individual or $743,000 for a family. And there are higher rates of just over 11% and 12% as you go up the income ladder to families making more than $1.5 million.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] So when you’re saying top earners also, just to be clear, we’re not talking about the billionaire’s tax.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] So when you’re saying top earners also, just to be clear, we’re not talking about the billionaire’s tax.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] That’s right. No, we are not talking about Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax. That is a measure about overall wealth for California billionaires. Proposition 3 is just about income taxes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] That’s right. No, we are not talking about Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax. That is a measure about overall wealth for California billionaires. Proposition 3 is just about income taxes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] And how much money could this bring in for California every year? And what are the kinds of things that this money would pay for?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] And how much money could this bring in for California every year? And what are the kinds of things that this money would pay for?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:52] Yeah, so the California Budget and Policy Center has went back and looked at what kind of impact these higher tax rates have had. And basically, since they were enacted in 2012, these higher taxes have brought in about $120 billion for the state. In recent years, that’s been about $10 billion a year, so roughly like 4% of the overall state general fund. And so the big winners of these taxes are schools and health care because the vast majority of California state spending from the general fund goes to schools and goes to health care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:52] Yeah, so the California Budget and Policy Center has went back and looked at what kind of impact these higher tax rates have had. And basically, since they were enacted in 2012, these higher taxes have brought in about $120 billion for the state. In recent years, that’s been about $10 billion a year, so roughly like 4% of the overall state general fund. And so the big winners of these taxes are schools and health care because the vast majority of California state spending from the general fund goes to schools and goes to health care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:27] And when you say health, Guy, you mean health and human services, so things like Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:27] And when you say health, Guy, you mean health and human services, so things like Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:33] Yeah, so the biggest piece of that is Medi-Cal, which is our Medicaid system in California, basically our healthcare safety net for low-income working-class Californians.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:33] Yeah, so the biggest piece of that is Medi-Cal, which is our Medicaid system in California, basically our healthcare safety net for low-income working-class Californians.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:45] And let’s get into the politics of this measure. Who are the main proponents of preposition three and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:45] And let’s get into the politics of this measure. Who are the main proponents of preposition three and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:53] So the main proponents of Proposition 3 are Democrats and Democrat-aligned groups, specifically the California Teachers Association, which is the biggest single proponent of Proposition 3. Their argument is these taxes are working. We’ve had them in place for more than a decade. They’re bringing in billions of dollars, and they really have championed California’s progressive tax system, saying it’s fair for the folks who earn the most income in state to pay at a higher rate. They’re also the biggest beneficiaries of these taxes. Again, the biggest slice of the pie for a California tax revenue is going to schools. And so I think it’s no surprise that you see the state’s biggest teachers unions getting behind Proposition 3 and wanting to make it permanent. Here’s David Goldberg, who’s president of the California Teachers Association, making an appeal for Prop 3 on Instagram.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:53] So the main proponents of Proposition 3 are Democrats and Democrat-aligned groups, specifically the California Teachers Association, which is the biggest single proponent of Proposition 3. Their argument is these taxes are working. We’ve had them in place for more than a decade. They’re bringing in billions of dollars, and they really have championed California’s progressive tax system, saying it’s fair for the folks who earn the most income in state to pay at a higher rate. They’re also the biggest beneficiaries of these taxes. Again, the biggest slice of the pie for a California tax revenue is going to schools. And so I think it’s no surprise that you see the state’s biggest teachers unions getting behind Proposition 3 and wanting to make it permanent. Here’s David Goldberg, who’s president of the California Teachers Association, making an appeal for Prop 3 on Instagram.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Goldberg \u003c/strong>[00:04:45] Prop 3 will make permanent an already existing tax on wealthy Californians. We’re making out like gangbusters right now. We have to make the case to make sure that people know that investing and voting for Prop 3 is investing in us, in our communities, in our students, in our families, and in education.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Goldberg \u003c/strong>[00:04:45] Prop 3 will make permanent an already existing tax on wealthy Californians. We’re making out like gangbusters right now. We have to make the case to make sure that people know that investing and voting for Prop 3 is investing in us, in our communities, in our students, in our families, and in education.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:05] And then the California Budget and Policy Center has said that if the income tax on top earners doesn’t extend, the state’s income tax would become more regressive. Can you explain what they mean by that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:05] And then the California Budget and Policy Center has said that if the income tax on top earners doesn’t extend, the state’s income tax would become more regressive. Can you explain what they mean by that?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] Yeah, so basically the way that the state’s income tax system is set up right now is you have top earners paying at a higher rate, not just paying more because they earn more, but actually paying at higher rate than lower income earners. And so what that does is it creates a system that supporters say is fair, that you have people who are making the most money, paying a higher share into the state government. What that also does create though is more volatility because the people who were who the largest share of state taxation, it’s a smaller group. So if the stock market goes down or the economy goes down and that group is affected, you’re gonna see these swings up and down in state tax revenue.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] Yeah, so basically the way that the state’s income tax system is set up right now is you have top earners paying at a higher rate, not just paying more because they earn more, but actually paying at higher rate than lower income earners. And so what that does is it creates a system that supporters say is fair, that you have people who are making the most money, paying a higher share into the state government. What that also does create though is more volatility because the people who were who the largest share of state taxation, it’s a smaller group. So if the stock market goes down or the economy goes down and that group is affected, you’re gonna see these swings up and down in state tax revenue.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] Or if our top earners leave California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] Or if our top earners leave California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:07] Yes, and that’s I mean, this this kind of ties into the arguments that we’re seeing around Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, but this idea that if you know those high earners leave the state, then that could have an outsize impact on how much money the state is able to bring in because the state is relying so much on that kind of smaller group of wealthy individuals.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:07] Yes, and that’s I mean, this this kind of ties into the arguments that we’re seeing around Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, but this idea that if you know those high earners leave the state, then that could have an outsize impact on how much money the state is able to bring in because the state is relying so much on that kind of smaller group of wealthy individuals.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:31] We’ll have more on Proposition 3 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. If you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider supporting the journalism we do here at KQED by becoming a sustaining member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:31] We’ll have more on Proposition 3 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. If you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider supporting the journalism we do here at KQED by becoming a sustaining member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:07] Who’s coming out against Proposition 3, and what’s the argument on their end?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:07] Who’s coming out against Proposition 3, and what’s the argument on their end?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:12] Yeah, you really see an opposition from Republicans and kind of taxpayer advocacy groups, including the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, who have basically made the argument that Californians face too much of a burden in taxes, and that the state needs to start doing things to lower the tax burden on individuals. There is a group reform California led by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio. He has come out against Proposition 3, but also against Proposition 40, which is the billionaire wealth tax. And here he is kind of wrapping up his opposition to multiple tax ideas that are on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:12] Yeah, you really see an opposition from Republicans and kind of taxpayer advocacy groups, including the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, who have basically made the argument that Californians face too much of a burden in taxes, and that the state needs to start doing things to lower the tax burden on individuals. There is a group reform California led by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio. He has come out against Proposition 3, but also against Proposition 40, which is the billionaire wealth tax. And here he is kind of wrapping up his opposition to multiple tax ideas that are on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] I know some of you are probably saying, well, if it’s just going to apply to the rich, why not do it? They’re coming for you. But it also has a negative impact on our state budget. What happens when a high income earner leaves the state? Instead of paying a little bit more in taxes with the higher Prop 3 or Prop 40 tax rates, They take a hundred percent of their tax increment to another state and that state gets the revenue. We get zero.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] I know some of you are probably saying, well, if it’s just going to apply to the rich, why not do it? They’re coming for you. But it also has a negative impact on our state budget. What happens when a high income earner leaves the state? Instead of paying a little bit more in taxes with the higher Prop 3 or Prop 40 tax rates, They take a hundred percent of their tax increment to another state and that state gets the revenue. We get zero.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] You also hear the argument that this tax was never meant to be permanent. When it was initially enacted back in 2012, it was championed by former Governor Jerry Brown. It came after Brown’s first two years in office where he really made some difficult cuts to state programs. And he turned to voters and said, look, I’ve been frugal. I’ve made these cuts. Now I need to ask you to pay more in order to kind of make the budget more stable. Voters approved that, but it was pitched as a temporary increase. Uh, that temporary increase was extended again in 2016 as a temporary increase. Now proposition three would make those higher income taxes permanent. So opponents of this say, you know, This is a bait and switch.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] You also hear the argument that this tax was never meant to be permanent. When it was initially enacted back in 2012, it was championed by former Governor Jerry Brown. It came after Brown’s first two years in office where he really made some difficult cuts to state programs. And he turned to voters and said, look, I’ve been frugal. I’ve made these cuts. Now I need to ask you to pay more in order to kind of make the budget more stable. Voters approved that, but it was pitched as a temporary increase. Uh, that temporary increase was extended again in 2016 as a temporary increase. Now proposition three would make those higher income taxes permanent. So opponents of this say, you know, This is a bait and switch.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:13] Let’s talk about the money here. Is there anyone coming out to spend any money for or against this measure?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:13] Let’s talk about the money here. Is there anyone coming out to spend any money for or against this measure?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] We’ve seen funding for Proposition 3 overwhelmingly on the Yes campaign. There’s been over $40 million in support so far, and the vast majority of that — $33 million of the $43 million comes from the California Teachers Association.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] We’ve seen funding for Proposition 3 overwhelmingly on the Yes campaign. There’s been over $40 million in support so far, and the vast majority of that — $33 million of the $43 million comes from the California Teachers Association.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:43] What about any of California’s highest earners, Guy? I mean, have they spoken out against this tax or have they been, for the most part, pretty quiet?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:52] No, we really haven’t heard any kind of organized opposition to Proposition 3, nothing like the money that we’re seeing coming in in support of prop three, especially from the teachers unions. And I think a big reason for that is the richest Californians, they might be a little bit more focused on another measure, which is Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, we are seeing some of the wealthiest residents of the state organized against that. And really not as much of a big campaign around proposition three.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:52] No, we really haven’t heard any kind of organized opposition to Proposition 3, nothing like the money that we’re seeing coming in in support of prop three, especially from the teachers unions. And I think a big reason for that is the richest Californians, they might be a little bit more focused on another measure, which is Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, we are seeing some of the wealthiest residents of the state organized against that. And really not as much of a big campaign around proposition three.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] Yeah, and I mean, as you said earlier, this proposition builds on previous ballot initiatives that Californians have approved in the past. So how likely do you think is this one to pass?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] Yeah, and I mean, as you said earlier, this proposition builds on previous ballot initiatives that Californians have approved in the past. So how likely do you think is this one to pass?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:35] You know, we had initial support for this back in 2012. I think as this has just become part of the state budget and part of the way California taxation works, you’re likely to see voters kind of just like get used to it and say, look, this has been in place, you know, only the top 2% of income earners are paying this. I do think one potential iceberg for this measure is just voter confusion because we are seeing so many different measures on the ballot related to taxes. Maybe this gets confused or conflated with Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, and voters who are opposed to that turn against this. That’s speculation. But certainly, taking the last two elections where this was on the ballot, 2012 and 2016, voters said yes to this idea of taxing our highest income earners in California have more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:35] You know, we had initial support for this back in 2012. I think as this has just become part of the state budget and part of the way California taxation works, you’re likely to see voters kind of just like get used to it and say, look, this has been in place, you know, only the top 2% of income earners are paying this. I do think one potential iceberg for this measure is just voter confusion because we are seeing so many different measures on the ballot related to taxes. Maybe this gets confused or conflated with Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, and voters who are opposed to that turn against this. That’s speculation. But certainly, taking the last two elections where this was on the ballot, 2012 and 2016, voters said yes to this idea of taxing our highest income earners in California have more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] Guy, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] Yeah, thank you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to\u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\"> https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Proposition 3 would lock in a marginal tax rate of 10.3% to 12.3% for the state's highest earners.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] California has what’s known as a progressive tax system. Basically, the more money you make, the more you pay in income taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:09] For years, California voters have approved certain tax rates for high-income earners. And now, Prop 3 could make some of those rates permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:20] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:23] And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest. For two weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot, so you can vote smart this November.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Today, we’re talking about Proposition 3. A bill that aims to lock in tax rates for high-income earners to pay for schools and health care in California. Here’s how it’ll read on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:00:56] Prop 3 provides permanent funding for schools and health care by extending existing tax on high incomes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:04] Here to walk us through Proposition 3 is politics and government correspondent Guy Marzorati. What’s up, Guy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:10] Hey, you may remember me from Prop 2.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] I sure do. Thank you so much again for joining us on this one. This one seems pretty straightforward, I gotta say. But walk us through what Proposition 3 might do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:24] Yeah, so this would permanently extend California’s current income tax rates on our top earners. So back in 2012, California voters approved a new higher tax bracket for the top 2% of income earners, California. Voters extended those taxes in 2016. Now it’s on the ballot again to make it permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:45] Who are we talking about when we say high earners in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] Yeah, that’s a great question. So the folks who pay these taxes that are being proposed to be permanent under Proposition 3 are really just the top 2% of California income tax filers. Those individuals and families pay a marginal tax rate of a little over 10% on income above $371,000 for an individual or $743,000 for a family. And there are higher rates of just over 11% and 12% as you go up the income ladder to families making more than $1.5 million.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] So when you’re saying top earners also, just to be clear, we’re not talking about the billionaire’s tax.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] That’s right. No, we are not talking about Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax. That is a measure about overall wealth for California billionaires. Proposition 3 is just about income taxes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:43] And how much money could this bring in for California every year? And what are the kinds of things that this money would pay for?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:52] Yeah, so the California Budget and Policy Center has went back and looked at what kind of impact these higher tax rates have had. And basically, since they were enacted in 2012, these higher taxes have brought in about $120 billion for the state. In recent years, that’s been about $10 billion a year, so roughly like 4% of the overall state general fund. And so the big winners of these taxes are schools and health care because the vast majority of California state spending from the general fund goes to schools and goes to health care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:27] And when you say health, Guy, you mean health and human services, so things like Medi-Cal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:33] Yeah, so the biggest piece of that is Medi-Cal, which is our Medicaid system in California, basically our healthcare safety net for low-income working-class Californians.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:45] And let’s get into the politics of this measure. Who are the main proponents of preposition three and what are their arguments?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:53] So the main proponents of Proposition 3 are Democrats and Democrat-aligned groups, specifically the California Teachers Association, which is the biggest single proponent of Proposition 3. Their argument is these taxes are working. We’ve had them in place for more than a decade. They’re bringing in billions of dollars, and they really have championed California’s progressive tax system, saying it’s fair for the folks who earn the most income in state to pay at a higher rate. They’re also the biggest beneficiaries of these taxes. Again, the biggest slice of the pie for a California tax revenue is going to schools. And so I think it’s no surprise that you see the state’s biggest teachers unions getting behind Proposition 3 and wanting to make it permanent. Here’s David Goldberg, who’s president of the California Teachers Association, making an appeal for Prop 3 on Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Goldberg \u003c/strong>[00:04:45] Prop 3 will make permanent an already existing tax on wealthy Californians. We’re making out like gangbusters right now. We have to make the case to make sure that people know that investing and voting for Prop 3 is investing in us, in our communities, in our students, in our families, and in education.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:05] And then the California Budget and Policy Center has said that if the income tax on top earners doesn’t extend, the state’s income tax would become more regressive. Can you explain what they mean by that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:19] Yeah, so basically the way that the state’s income tax system is set up right now is you have top earners paying at a higher rate, not just paying more because they earn more, but actually paying at higher rate than lower income earners. And so what that does is it creates a system that supporters say is fair, that you have people who are making the most money, paying a higher share into the state government. What that also does create though is more volatility because the people who were who the largest share of state taxation, it’s a smaller group. So if the stock market goes down or the economy goes down and that group is affected, you’re gonna see these swings up and down in state tax revenue.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] Or if our top earners leave California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:07] Yes, and that’s I mean, this this kind of ties into the arguments that we’re seeing around Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, but this idea that if you know those high earners leave the state, then that could have an outsize impact on how much money the state is able to bring in because the state is relying so much on that kind of smaller group of wealthy individuals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:31] We’ll have more on Proposition 3 with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. If you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider supporting the journalism we do here at KQED by becoming a sustaining member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:07] Who’s coming out against Proposition 3, and what’s the argument on their end?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:12] Yeah, you really see an opposition from Republicans and kind of taxpayer advocacy groups, including the California Taxpayers Association, the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, who have basically made the argument that Californians face too much of a burden in taxes, and that the state needs to start doing things to lower the tax burden on individuals. There is a group reform California led by Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio. He has come out against Proposition 3, but also against Proposition 40, which is the billionaire wealth tax. And here he is kind of wrapping up his opposition to multiple tax ideas that are on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] I know some of you are probably saying, well, if it’s just going to apply to the rich, why not do it? They’re coming for you. But it also has a negative impact on our state budget. What happens when a high income earner leaves the state? Instead of paying a little bit more in taxes with the higher Prop 3 or Prop 40 tax rates, They take a hundred percent of their tax increment to another state and that state gets the revenue. We get zero.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:26] You also hear the argument that this tax was never meant to be permanent. When it was initially enacted back in 2012, it was championed by former Governor Jerry Brown. It came after Brown’s first two years in office where he really made some difficult cuts to state programs. And he turned to voters and said, look, I’ve been frugal. I’ve made these cuts. Now I need to ask you to pay more in order to kind of make the budget more stable. Voters approved that, but it was pitched as a temporary increase. Uh, that temporary increase was extended again in 2016 as a temporary increase. Now proposition three would make those higher income taxes permanent. So opponents of this say, you know, This is a bait and switch.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:13] Let’s talk about the money here. Is there anyone coming out to spend any money for or against this measure?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:20] We’ve seen funding for Proposition 3 overwhelmingly on the Yes campaign. There’s been over $40 million in support so far, and the vast majority of that — $33 million of the $43 million comes from the California Teachers Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:43] What about any of California’s highest earners, Guy? I mean, have they spoken out against this tax or have they been, for the most part, pretty quiet?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:52] No, we really haven’t heard any kind of organized opposition to Proposition 3, nothing like the money that we’re seeing coming in in support of prop three, especially from the teachers unions. And I think a big reason for that is the richest Californians, they might be a little bit more focused on another measure, which is Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, we are seeing some of the wealthiest residents of the state organized against that. And really not as much of a big campaign around proposition three.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:22] Yeah, and I mean, as you said earlier, this proposition builds on previous ballot initiatives that Californians have approved in the past. So how likely do you think is this one to pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:35] You know, we had initial support for this back in 2012. I think as this has just become part of the state budget and part of the way California taxation works, you’re likely to see voters kind of just like get used to it and say, look, this has been in place, you know, only the top 2% of income earners are paying this. I do think one potential iceberg for this measure is just voter confusion because we are seeing so many different measures on the ballot related to taxes. Maybe this gets confused or conflated with Prop 40, the billionaire wealth tax, and voters who are opposed to that turn against this. That’s speculation. But certainly, taking the last two elections where this was on the ballot, 2012 and 2016, voters said yes to this idea of taxing our highest income earners in California have more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] Guy, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:30] Yeah, thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to\u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\"> https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Hey Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. We’re breaking down every single statewide ballot proposition from now until October 9th. Subscribe to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones, and don’t forget to share them with your friends and family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is made possible thanks to Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll talk then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. We’re breaking down every single statewide ballot proposition from now until October 9th. Subscribe to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones, and don’t forget to share them with your friends and family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. We’re breaking down every single statewide ballot proposition from now until October 9th. Subscribe to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones, and don’t forget to share them with your friends and family.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is made possible thanks to Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is made possible thanks to Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Hey Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. We’re breaking down every single statewide ballot proposition from now until October 9th. Subscribe to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones, and don’t forget to share them with your friends and family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is made possible thanks to Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll talk then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "what-if-transit-ballot-measures-fail-plus-solar-panels-built-over-irrigation-canals-and-a-valkyries-playoff-preview",
"title": "What if Transit Ballot Measures Fail? Plus, Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals and a Valkyries Playoff Preview",
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"headTitle": "What if Transit Ballot Measures Fail? Plus, Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals and a Valkyries Playoff Preview | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>In this edition of The Bay’s monthly news roundup, we discuss a new report that found traffic delays could double if voters reject two public transit-related ballot measures. We also discuss a pilot program that builds solar panels over irrigation canals and preview the Golden State Valkyries return to the playoffs. Plus, we say goodbye to The Bay’s senior editor, Alan Montecillo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100738/bay-bridge-traffic-delays-would-double-if-transit-tax-measures-fail-report-finds\">Bay Bridge Traffic Delays Would Double if Transit Tax Measures Fail, Report Finds \u003c/a>(KQED)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002033/heres-what-california-is-learning-from-solar-panels-built-over-irrigation-canals\">Here’s What California Is Learning From Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals \u003c/a>(KQED)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2026/09/20/golden-state-valkyries-historic-season-title-contenders/\">The Valkyries aren’t just an impressive expansion team. This is an all-time season \u003c/a>(SF Standard) \u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay’s September News Roundup where we sit down and talk about some of the other stories on our radars this month. Today I’m joined by the Bay Senior Editor, Alan Montecillo. Hey, Alan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Hello, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And our very special guest this month is Erika Kelly, KQED’s interim managing editor. Hey, Erika.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Hello, Ericka. Two Erikas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Lots of Erikas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Erika, folks might not be familiar with your voice and your name, but can you tell us a little bit more about what you do here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I usually am behind the scenes, and one of the things I really love about my job is that I get to work with teams across the newsroom covering all kinds of things from arts to housing to politics to labor and to health and climate, which is what I’m gonna talk about here today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I can’t believe it but fall is finally here, though it doesn’t really feel like it this week. It’s a little hot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>It’s Bay Area summer in September.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It is Bay Area summer, but that means the election is very near and our newsroom is gearing up and so are we, Alan. We’re working on Prop Fest, folks might remember that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is a collaboration between us and our friends at Bay Curious. So starting Monday, September 28th, every weekday until Friday, October 9th, expect daily drops in your feed about all 14 ballot measures on the ballot at the state level in this election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>If you’re in need of some help this November, I mean, there are 14 props, way too many.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>And they’re really complicated at times, too. Sometimes they’re simple, they’re like, should we do this or that? And sometimes they’re about process. Sometimes they are about some insidery fight between political factions. So there’s a lot to talk about with many of these.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive in then. We’re actually gonna start with my story here about a forecast report on what traffic would look like in the Bay Area if voters reject two ballot measures to fund BART, AC Transit, Muni, and Caltrain. And the forecast report is not pretty. It just is expected to get way worse than we already see it right now if voters reject this year’s regional transit measure and Prop H in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>There are actually two measures you’re talking about. What would they actually do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So the regional transit measure affects five Bay Area counties. It’s a half cent sales tax in Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and Santa Clara counties. For voters in San Francisco it’s one cent sales that is expected to generate about a billion dollars annually. Our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman reported on some new research published by the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association, or SPUR. It’s a nonpartisan, non-profit public policy think tank. I should mention though that SPUR is a sponsor of one of the tax measures in question, but SPUR actually hired this engineering and infrastructure consulting firm to do this analysis. And it found that traffic in the Bay Area would more than double.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>That sounds apocalyptic for people who are already sitting in a lot of really bad Bay Area traffic. What are the things that are going to drive that? Does it mean fewer BART trains, fewer Muni trains, all those kinds of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it might be helpful to step back a little bit and talk about, I guess, really like the stakes of these transit measures on the ballot this November. So, BART, AC Transit, Muni, Caltrain, all really struggling since the pandemic to get people back riding their busses and trains. BART has been operating at 50% of ridership since the pandemic and each of these agencies face I mean, massive, massive budget deficits because of these pandemic era drops. And so these agencies are basically planning really big cuts if voters reject this regional transit measure. BART plans to close up to 15 stations. Caltrain plans to closed up to 10 stations. Muni stands to eliminate like 20 routes on their lines, and what this report shows is that without transit agencies operating at the same capacity that they are now, that’s just going to mean way, way, more traffic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Right, because presumably all these people who used to take BART into the city will have to figure out something else, probably drive more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>When we say traffic is projected to double in the Bay Area, what do we mean by that? Does the report focus on specific crowded, you know, congested commute areas like the Bay Bridge, for instance?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh absolutely, I mean we all already know, it’s absolutely crazy on the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Didn’t you drive in this morning?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I did drive in this morning and it was horrendous, which is why I never really do drive in, but it just is expected to get, yeah, way worse than we already see it right now. And it’s especially gonna be hard for commuters in the East Bay who might hit multiple bottlenecks along the way into San Francisco, for example, so the Bay Bridge is expected to see delays from 30 minutes during the morning and afternoon rush to something more like 63 minutes in the morning and 73 minutes in the afternoon. And our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman actually talked with Laura Tolkoff, she’s the transportation policy director at SPUR, just about some of these findings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Tolkoff \u003c/strong>Even if you don’t ride transit every day, your life is better because there is transit in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So, this report was published by SPUR, which is supporting the regional measure and then Prop H in San Francisco. Is there anyone out there saying, like, this is overblown, it’s not a big deal, these agencies just need to spend their money better, because there are groups opposing these measures to raise taxes to fund transit, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There is a campaign launched by the Contra Costa Taxpayers Association, who is opposed to the regional transit measure. And yeah, our colleague Azul has reported that this group is really arguing that these transit agencies should use their money better. And by that, they mean maybe reallocating money from certain projects to reduce their budget deficits. They also have argued that some of these agencies should increase efficiencies, so maybe try and reduce pay for some of their highest paid employees and stop construction on some of these ongoing projects to maybe fund day-to-day operations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And that is it for my story. We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we’ll dig into some of the other stories that we’ve been following this month. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. And we’re back with The Bay’s September News Roundup. Erika Kelly, what story did you bring for us today?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the story that has been ticking over my brain this week is called, Here’s What California Is Learning From Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals. And it is by our tremendous intern, Ella Jackson. So this story is part of a series we’re called Flipping the Switch, and it is all about California’s effort to transition to clean and renewable energy by 2045. So I have a question for you. Have you ever driven down I-5 and seen the canals with all the water flowing in them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So California has thousands of miles of these things that carry water all over the state. So Ella went out to Turlock in the Central Valley to get a look at a pilot project where they have built solar panels over a small section of the canal. And the idea is to see whether building these solar panels over the canal can provide energy and also protect the canals from evaporation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So the story is what California is learning from this. So what do these solar panels do? What are we learning from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the pilot project is a collaboration between a firm called Solar AquaGrid, the local Turlock Irrigation District, UC Merced, and the California Department of Water Resources. And they have a lot of questions. And one of the things the researchers have learned is that if the state put panels over 100 miles of its canals, depending on the size, it could save enough water for 11,000 households, it could save that much water from evaporating into the atmosphere. It could also generate 1,400 megawatts of energy. Now, I don’t think much in megawatths, but that translates into enough power for 304,000 household. So really what we’re looking at is like a possible win-win for these like two thorny environmental problems, which is loss of water and also the need for clean energy. One of the other reasons it is potentially good is like, you need a lot of space to build solar panels, but to be able to build solar farms on undeveloped land, research shows that the permitting process can be up to two years, and much longer than if you’re trying to build it on something that’s already developed. So, that is like sort of the, third win in this win-win-win situation where you can build this on land that’s already being used and so you don’t come up against a lot of the resistance that could come from folks who are concerned about either wildlife in open areas or about concerns nearby to homes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Looking at the picture of just like what this even looks like I mean it looks massive like a huge solar panel over like a canal of water I can imagine this being maybe really expensive to do. I mean you mentioned this is just a pilot project, are there any limits to this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right now, yes, there is a question about cost, and the state at the moment is not committing to do more of it. It’s also, this can’t work everywhere. Ella spoke to somebody in Contra Costa County who oversees the the irrigation canals there, and their canals sit, instead of sitting out in the middle of fields and by a big highway, they run through people’s backyards and they run by parks. And so there is not the access and the space to be able to build a structure like this. So it might work some places, but it’s not gonna work everywhere. And actually this story has been read by a ton of people online. It’s actually generating a lot of conversation. Some of it is about the cost. Some of is about, about the costs of the steel, the like the feasibility of all of it. And so I think that’s really interesting about this story is like on the surface, this seems like a perfect solution to these big problems. But then you really have to dig down into the nitty gritty and say, how does it actually get done?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Isn’t this one of the most read stories on the website right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Not only is it number one on our website this week, but it is about to surpass every other story we have published over the last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Wow. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I think it really has captured people’s imaginations about what is possible when we are dealing with these huge, like I said, these huge environmental problems. How do we generate clean energy in order to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels? How do save water in a state that is famous for not having enough water? People love a solution. They love an idea of a solution and the idea that it could be win-win. You know, a lot of things seem hard or impossible and I think on the face of it, this seems like, oh, but of course.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It kind of feels like, duh, like the solution has sort of been right under our noses this whole time and maybe that’s what’s also capturing people’s imagination with this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right, like why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Well, Erika Kelly, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for bringing it today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Thank you for having me. I love talking about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And last but not least, senior editor Alan Montecillo, what story have you been following this month?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So last year, the Golden State Valkyries made the playoffs in their inaugural season. They surprised everybody. They sold out all other games with a record of 23 and 21. But this year they are back in the playoffs, which start on Sunday, and they’re one of the best teams in the league.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know when they first started out, no one really expected them to be good, but then they were. And then after that, I think there was maybe an expectation that things would get harder over time. But it seems like they’re just still riding this wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ll say it’s probably not a surprise to the coach, Natalie Nakase, and the owner, Joe Lacob, who said that he wanted a championship within the first five years of starting the franchise. So just for some context, last year, like you said, first-year teams are not supposed to be very good. They defied expectations and just squeaked into the playoffs, which was already a huge accomplishment. No team in the WNBA had ever made it to the playoffs in their first year. This time, as of this taping, they are 31 and 12, and we’ll finish with either the second or third best record in the league. So we are officially out of the, oh, this is all gravy, oh my gosh, no expectations. We’re officially in like, oh this could end in disappointment or this could end in, dare I say, a championship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>You’re a true fan because you know that those are the different ways things could go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s too late. I already opened my heart to elation or disappointment. That’s how it goes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Alan, can you talk a little bit about what makes this team so good and what has made them so good?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>A lot of the things that made the team impressive last year have gotten even better this year. The most important thing to know is defense. The Valkyries have the best defense in the league. They play together, they play hard. But I think the key thing to note about their defense, even if you’re not super into basketball, is that they play connected. Basketball is a very fast-moving sport. The ball moves around a lot, people dribble into the paint, they try and kick it out for three. So, what matters a lot is togetherness and quickness. The ability to recover if someone beats you, this team is elite at that. So it’s not just one individual defender, two individual defenders, it’s five people, no matter who’s on the floor, kind of playing on a string. The other thing I would say is the team’s depth. Those of you listening who were around for the 2015 Golden State Warriors know that the motto for that team was strength in numbers. I would that applies equally as much to this year’s edition of the Valkyries. So by depth, I mean, they can play lots of good players off their bench. It means that even when the starters are off the floor, this team is a threat to make a run. The other thing I’ll say is home court advantage. Chase Center, AKA Ballhalla, is loud. It’s sold out every single game over two seasons. And in multiple surveys across the league, players and coaches and other teams have said that the Valkyries have the best home court advantage in the league. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Not surprising at all. Have you been to Valkyrie’s game, Erika?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes, I went last season and it was so much fun. The music is loud, people are dressed up, everyone’s wearing purple. The people, you can see that there are people who come to all the games or a lot of the games who are just, you know, already die-hard fans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> It’s also very. I feel like intergenerational, like there’s so many kids, but also a lot of older people too, a lot women, which is which is very nice to see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes absolutely and yeah and it’s really part of this whole like growth in women’s sports in the Bay Area. I also go see Bay FC the women’s soccer team down in the South Bay and again it’s like it’s very intergenerational a lot of women a lot and just a lot a love for the team. So when do the playoffs start and do you think they could actually win it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So we don’t know who they’re playing yet as of this taping. By the time this airs, we might know who their first round opponent is. But we do know that game one is going to be at Chase Center on Sunday. The WNBA playoffs are three rounds. As to their chances, I would say they are not the favorites, but they have a real shot. They do not necessarily have the superstar power of other teams like Minnesota or Las Vegas. But the things that I mentioned earlier in terms of this team’s defense, their togetherness, their toughness. Especially if the three-pointers are going in too, I think they could do it. I mean, it would be a surprise, but this team has surpassed expectations before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And before we go, this is actually our senior editor, Alan Montecillo:’s very last news roundup with us here at The Bay. Alan, you’re leaving the Bay, the show, but you’re also leaving the Bay Area. Where are you going?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>I am moving to St. Louis with my partner who started a graduate program there. So next week I will be leaving KQED after nearly seven years with the show and hundreds of episodes later. Mm, definitely. Yeah, hard to count. And so it’s bittersweet. Excited for the new opportunity, but also I will miss the team very much and just all the work we’ve done.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I remember when you first started on the Bay, right before actually the pandemic. I think I mentioned this to you the other day. You’re like the longest colleague I’ve ever had. I’ve never been a coworker with someone for as long as I’ve been on a team with you. And it’s been a pleasure and we’re gonna miss you. We’re gonna to miss you on the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Thank you, ECG. It’s been so much fun working on this team. And I’m grateful to have worked at KQED and also with everyone who’s ever worked on The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Alan Montecillo, senior editor of The Bay, for the last time, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Erika Kelly, Interim Managing Editor for KQED. Thank you as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>You, Erika.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Gabriela Glueck, music courtesy of Audio Network and APM. The base of production of listener supported KQED public media in San Francisco. Support is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQE podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thank you so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In this edition of The Bay’s monthly news roundup, we discuss a new report that found traffic delays could double if voters reject two public transit-related ballot measures. We also discuss a pilot program that builds solar panels over irrigation canals and preview the Golden State Valkyries return to the playoffs. Plus, we say goodbye to The Bay’s senior editor, Alan Montecillo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay’s September News Roundup where we sit down and talk about some of the other stories on our radars this month. Today I’m joined by the Bay Senior Editor, Alan Montecillo. Hey, Alan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay’s September News Roundup where we sit down and talk about some of the other stories on our radars this month. Today I’m joined by the Bay Senior Editor, Alan Montecillo. Hey, Alan.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Hello, good morning.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Hello, good morning.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And our very special guest this month is Erika Kelly, KQED’s interim managing editor. Hey, Erika.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And our very special guest this month is Erika Kelly, KQED’s interim managing editor. Hey, Erika.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Hello, Ericka. Two Erikas.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Hello, Ericka. Two Erikas.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s right.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Erika, folks might not be familiar with your voice and your name, but can you tell us a little bit more about what you do here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Erika, folks might not be familiar with your voice and your name, but can you tell us a little bit more about what you do here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I usually am behind the scenes, and one of the things I really love about my job is that I get to work with teams across the newsroom covering all kinds of things from arts to housing to politics to labor and to health and climate, which is what I’m gonna talk about here today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I usually am behind the scenes, and one of the things I really love about my job is that I get to work with teams across the newsroom covering all kinds of things from arts to housing to politics to labor and to health and climate, which is what I’m gonna talk about here today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I can’t believe it but fall is finally here, though it doesn’t really feel like it this week. It’s a little hot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I can’t believe it but fall is finally here, though it doesn’t really feel like it this week. It’s a little hot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>It’s Bay Area summer in September.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It is Bay Area summer, but that means the election is very near and our newsroom is gearing up and so are we, Alan. We’re working on Prop Fest, folks might remember that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It is Bay Area summer, but that means the election is very near and our newsroom is gearing up and so are we, Alan. We’re working on Prop Fest, folks might remember that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is a collaboration between us and our friends at Bay Curious. So starting Monday, September 28th, every weekday until Friday, October 9th, expect daily drops in your feed about all 14 ballot measures on the ballot at the state level in this election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is a collaboration between us and our friends at Bay Curious. So starting Monday, September 28th, every weekday until Friday, October 9th, expect daily drops in your feed about all 14 ballot measures on the ballot at the state level in this election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>If you’re in need of some help this November, I mean, there are 14 props, way too many.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>If you’re in need of some help this November, I mean, there are 14 props, way too many.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>And they’re really complicated at times, too. Sometimes they’re simple, they’re like, should we do this or that? And sometimes they’re about process. Sometimes they are about some insidery fight between political factions. So there’s a lot to talk about with many of these.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>And they’re really complicated at times, too. Sometimes they’re simple, they’re like, should we do this or that? And sometimes they’re about process. Sometimes they are about some insidery fight between political factions. So there’s a lot to talk about with many of these.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive in then. We’re actually gonna start with my story here about a forecast report on what traffic would look like in the Bay Area if voters reject two ballot measures to fund BART, AC Transit, Muni, and Caltrain. And the forecast report is not pretty. It just is expected to get way worse than we already see it right now if voters reject this year’s regional transit measure and Prop H in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive in then. We’re actually gonna start with my story here about a forecast report on what traffic would look like in the Bay Area if voters reject two ballot measures to fund BART, AC Transit, Muni, and Caltrain. And the forecast report is not pretty. It just is expected to get way worse than we already see it right now if voters reject this year’s regional transit measure and Prop H in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>There are actually two measures you’re talking about. What would they actually do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So the regional transit measure affects five Bay Area counties. It’s a half cent sales tax in Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and Santa Clara counties. For voters in San Francisco it’s one cent sales that is expected to generate about a billion dollars annually. Our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman reported on some new research published by the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association, or SPUR. It’s a nonpartisan, non-profit public policy think tank. I should mention though that SPUR is a sponsor of one of the tax measures in question, but SPUR actually hired this engineering and infrastructure consulting firm to do this analysis. And it found that traffic in the Bay Area would more than double.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So the regional transit measure affects five Bay Area counties. It’s a half cent sales tax in Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and Santa Clara counties. For voters in San Francisco it’s one cent sales that is expected to generate about a billion dollars annually. Our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman reported on some new research published by the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association, or SPUR. It’s a nonpartisan, non-profit public policy think tank. I should mention though that SPUR is a sponsor of one of the tax measures in question, but SPUR actually hired this engineering and infrastructure consulting firm to do this analysis. And it found that traffic in the Bay Area would more than double.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>That sounds apocalyptic for people who are already sitting in a lot of really bad Bay Area traffic. What are the things that are going to drive that? Does it mean fewer BART trains, fewer Muni trains, all those kinds of things?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>That sounds apocalyptic for people who are already sitting in a lot of really bad Bay Area traffic. What are the things that are going to drive that? Does it mean fewer BART trains, fewer Muni trains, all those kinds of things?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it might be helpful to step back a little bit and talk about, I guess, really like the stakes of these transit measures on the ballot this November. So, BART, AC Transit, Muni, Caltrain, all really struggling since the pandemic to get people back riding their busses and trains. BART has been operating at 50% of ridership since the pandemic and each of these agencies face I mean, massive, massive budget deficits because of these pandemic era drops. And so these agencies are basically planning really big cuts if voters reject this regional transit measure. BART plans to close up to 15 stations. Caltrain plans to closed up to 10 stations. Muni stands to eliminate like 20 routes on their lines, and what this report shows is that without transit agencies operating at the same capacity that they are now, that’s just going to mean way, way, more traffic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it might be helpful to step back a little bit and talk about, I guess, really like the stakes of these transit measures on the ballot this November. So, BART, AC Transit, Muni, Caltrain, all really struggling since the pandemic to get people back riding their busses and trains. BART has been operating at 50% of ridership since the pandemic and each of these agencies face I mean, massive, massive budget deficits because of these pandemic era drops. And so these agencies are basically planning really big cuts if voters reject this regional transit measure. BART plans to close up to 15 stations. Caltrain plans to closed up to 10 stations. Muni stands to eliminate like 20 routes on their lines, and what this report shows is that without transit agencies operating at the same capacity that they are now, that’s just going to mean way, way, more traffic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Right, because presumably all these people who used to take BART into the city will have to figure out something else, probably drive more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Right, because presumably all these people who used to take BART into the city will have to figure out something else, probably drive more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Exactly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>When we say traffic is projected to double in the Bay Area, what do we mean by that? Does the report focus on specific crowded, you know, congested commute areas like the Bay Bridge, for instance?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>When we say traffic is projected to double in the Bay Area, what do we mean by that? Does the report focus on specific crowded, you know, congested commute areas like the Bay Bridge, for instance?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh absolutely, I mean we all already know, it’s absolutely crazy on the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh absolutely, I mean we all already know, it’s absolutely crazy on the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Didn’t you drive in this morning?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Didn’t you drive in this morning?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I did drive in this morning and it was horrendous, which is why I never really do drive in, but it just is expected to get, yeah, way worse than we already see it right now. And it’s especially gonna be hard for commuters in the East Bay who might hit multiple bottlenecks along the way into San Francisco, for example, so the Bay Bridge is expected to see delays from 30 minutes during the morning and afternoon rush to something more like 63 minutes in the morning and 73 minutes in the afternoon. And our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman actually talked with Laura Tolkoff, she’s the transportation policy director at SPUR, just about some of these findings.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I did drive in this morning and it was horrendous, which is why I never really do drive in, but it just is expected to get, yeah, way worse than we already see it right now. And it’s especially gonna be hard for commuters in the East Bay who might hit multiple bottlenecks along the way into San Francisco, for example, so the Bay Bridge is expected to see delays from 30 minutes during the morning and afternoon rush to something more like 63 minutes in the morning and 73 minutes in the afternoon. And our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman actually talked with Laura Tolkoff, she’s the transportation policy director at SPUR, just about some of these findings.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Tolkoff \u003c/strong>Even if you don’t ride transit every day, your life is better because there is transit in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Tolkoff \u003c/strong>Even if you don’t ride transit every day, your life is better because there is transit in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So, this report was published by SPUR, which is supporting the regional measure and then Prop H in San Francisco. Is there anyone out there saying, like, this is overblown, it’s not a big deal, these agencies just need to spend their money better, because there are groups opposing these measures to raise taxes to fund transit, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So, this report was published by SPUR, which is supporting the regional measure and then Prop H in San Francisco. Is there anyone out there saying, like, this is overblown, it’s not a big deal, these agencies just need to spend their money better, because there are groups opposing these measures to raise taxes to fund transit, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There is a campaign launched by the Contra Costa Taxpayers Association, who is opposed to the regional transit measure. And yeah, our colleague Azul has reported that this group is really arguing that these transit agencies should use their money better. And by that, they mean maybe reallocating money from certain projects to reduce their budget deficits. They also have argued that some of these agencies should increase efficiencies, so maybe try and reduce pay for some of their highest paid employees and stop construction on some of these ongoing projects to maybe fund day-to-day operations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There is a campaign launched by the Contra Costa Taxpayers Association, who is opposed to the regional transit measure. And yeah, our colleague Azul has reported that this group is really arguing that these transit agencies should use their money better. And by that, they mean maybe reallocating money from certain projects to reduce their budget deficits. They also have argued that some of these agencies should increase efficiencies, so maybe try and reduce pay for some of their highest paid employees and stop construction on some of these ongoing projects to maybe fund day-to-day operations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And that is it for my story. We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we’ll dig into some of the other stories that we’ve been following this month. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. And we’re back with The Bay’s September News Roundup. Erika Kelly, what story did you bring for us today?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And that is it for my story. We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we’ll dig into some of the other stories that we’ve been following this month. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. And we’re back with The Bay’s September News Roundup. Erika Kelly, what story did you bring for us today?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the story that has been ticking over my brain this week is called, Here’s What California Is Learning From Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals. And it is by our tremendous intern, Ella Jackson. So this story is part of a series we’re called Flipping the Switch, and it is all about California’s effort to transition to clean and renewable energy by 2045. So I have a question for you. Have you ever driven down I-5 and seen the canals with all the water flowing in them?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the story that has been ticking over my brain this week is called, Here’s What California Is Learning From Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals. And it is by our tremendous intern, Ella Jackson. So this story is part of a series we’re called Flipping the Switch, and it is all about California’s effort to transition to clean and renewable energy by 2045. So I have a question for you. Have you ever driven down I-5 and seen the canals with all the water flowing in them?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So California has thousands of miles of these things that carry water all over the state. So Ella went out to Turlock in the Central Valley to get a look at a pilot project where they have built solar panels over a small section of the canal. And the idea is to see whether building these solar panels over the canal can provide energy and also protect the canals from evaporation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So California has thousands of miles of these things that carry water all over the state. So Ella went out to Turlock in the Central Valley to get a look at a pilot project where they have built solar panels over a small section of the canal. And the idea is to see whether building these solar panels over the canal can provide energy and also protect the canals from evaporation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So the story is what California is learning from this. So what do these solar panels do? What are we learning from?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So the story is what California is learning from this. So what do these solar panels do? What are we learning from?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the pilot project is a collaboration between a firm called Solar AquaGrid, the local Turlock Irrigation District, UC Merced, and the California Department of Water Resources. And they have a lot of questions. And one of the things the researchers have learned is that if the state put panels over 100 miles of its canals, depending on the size, it could save enough water for 11,000 households, it could save that much water from evaporating into the atmosphere. It could also generate 1,400 megawatts of energy. Now, I don’t think much in megawatths, but that translates into enough power for 304,000 household. So really what we’re looking at is like a possible win-win for these like two thorny environmental problems, which is loss of water and also the need for clean energy. One of the other reasons it is potentially good is like, you need a lot of space to build solar panels, but to be able to build solar farms on undeveloped land, research shows that the permitting process can be up to two years, and much longer than if you’re trying to build it on something that’s already developed. So, that is like sort of the, third win in this win-win-win situation where you can build this on land that’s already being used and so you don’t come up against a lot of the resistance that could come from folks who are concerned about either wildlife in open areas or about concerns nearby to homes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the pilot project is a collaboration between a firm called Solar AquaGrid, the local Turlock Irrigation District, UC Merced, and the California Department of Water Resources. And they have a lot of questions. And one of the things the researchers have learned is that if the state put panels over 100 miles of its canals, depending on the size, it could save enough water for 11,000 households, it could save that much water from evaporating into the atmosphere. It could also generate 1,400 megawatts of energy. Now, I don’t think much in megawatths, but that translates into enough power for 304,000 household. So really what we’re looking at is like a possible win-win for these like two thorny environmental problems, which is loss of water and also the need for clean energy. One of the other reasons it is potentially good is like, you need a lot of space to build solar panels, but to be able to build solar farms on undeveloped land, research shows that the permitting process can be up to two years, and much longer than if you’re trying to build it on something that’s already developed. So, that is like sort of the, third win in this win-win-win situation where you can build this on land that’s already being used and so you don’t come up against a lot of the resistance that could come from folks who are concerned about either wildlife in open areas or about concerns nearby to homes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Looking at the picture of just like what this even looks like I mean it looks massive like a huge solar panel over like a canal of water I can imagine this being maybe really expensive to do. I mean you mentioned this is just a pilot project, are there any limits to this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Looking at the picture of just like what this even looks like I mean it looks massive like a huge solar panel over like a canal of water I can imagine this being maybe really expensive to do. I mean you mentioned this is just a pilot project, are there any limits to this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right now, yes, there is a question about cost, and the state at the moment is not committing to do more of it. It’s also, this can’t work everywhere. Ella spoke to somebody in Contra Costa County who oversees the the irrigation canals there, and their canals sit, instead of sitting out in the middle of fields and by a big highway, they run through people’s backyards and they run by parks. And so there is not the access and the space to be able to build a structure like this. So it might work some places, but it’s not gonna work everywhere. And actually this story has been read by a ton of people online. It’s actually generating a lot of conversation. Some of it is about the cost. Some of is about, about the costs of the steel, the like the feasibility of all of it. And so I think that’s really interesting about this story is like on the surface, this seems like a perfect solution to these big problems. But then you really have to dig down into the nitty gritty and say, how does it actually get done?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right now, yes, there is a question about cost, and the state at the moment is not committing to do more of it. It’s also, this can’t work everywhere. Ella spoke to somebody in Contra Costa County who oversees the the irrigation canals there, and their canals sit, instead of sitting out in the middle of fields and by a big highway, they run through people’s backyards and they run by parks. And so there is not the access and the space to be able to build a structure like this. So it might work some places, but it’s not gonna work everywhere. And actually this story has been read by a ton of people online. It’s actually generating a lot of conversation. Some of it is about the cost. Some of is about, about the costs of the steel, the like the feasibility of all of it. And so I think that’s really interesting about this story is like on the surface, this seems like a perfect solution to these big problems. But then you really have to dig down into the nitty gritty and say, how does it actually get done?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Isn’t this one of the most read stories on the website right now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Isn’t this one of the most read stories on the website right now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Not only is it number one on our website this week, but it is about to surpass every other story we have published over the last year.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Not only is it number one on our website this week, but it is about to surpass every other story we have published over the last year.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Wow. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Wow. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I think it really has captured people’s imaginations about what is possible when we are dealing with these huge, like I said, these huge environmental problems. How do we generate clean energy in order to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels? How do save water in a state that is famous for not having enough water? People love a solution. They love an idea of a solution and the idea that it could be win-win. You know, a lot of things seem hard or impossible and I think on the face of it, this seems like, oh, but of course.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I think it really has captured people’s imaginations about what is possible when we are dealing with these huge, like I said, these huge environmental problems. How do we generate clean energy in order to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels? How do save water in a state that is famous for not having enough water? People love a solution. They love an idea of a solution and the idea that it could be win-win. You know, a lot of things seem hard or impossible and I think on the face of it, this seems like, oh, but of course.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It kind of feels like, duh, like the solution has sort of been right under our noses this whole time and maybe that’s what’s also capturing people’s imagination with this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It kind of feels like, duh, like the solution has sort of been right under our noses this whole time and maybe that’s what’s also capturing people’s imagination with this story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right, like why not?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right, like why not?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Well, Erika Kelly, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for bringing it today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Well, Erika Kelly, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for bringing it today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Thank you for having me. I love talking about it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Thank you for having me. I love talking about it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And last but not least, senior editor Alan Montecillo, what story have you been following this month?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And last but not least, senior editor Alan Montecillo, what story have you been following this month?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So last year, the Golden State Valkyries made the playoffs in their inaugural season. They surprised everybody. They sold out all other games with a record of 23 and 21. But this year they are back in the playoffs, which start on Sunday, and they’re one of the best teams in the league.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So last year, the Golden State Valkyries made the playoffs in their inaugural season. They surprised everybody. They sold out all other games with a record of 23 and 21. But this year they are back in the playoffs, which start on Sunday, and they’re one of the best teams in the league.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know when they first started out, no one really expected them to be good, but then they were. And then after that, I think there was maybe an expectation that things would get harder over time. But it seems like they’re just still riding this wave.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know when they first started out, no one really expected them to be good, but then they were. And then after that, I think there was maybe an expectation that things would get harder over time. But it seems like they’re just still riding this wave.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ll say it’s probably not a surprise to the coach, Natalie Nakase, and the owner, Joe Lacob, who said that he wanted a championship within the first five years of starting the franchise. So just for some context, last year, like you said, first-year teams are not supposed to be very good. They defied expectations and just squeaked into the playoffs, which was already a huge accomplishment. No team in the WNBA had ever made it to the playoffs in their first year. This time, as of this taping, they are 31 and 12, and we’ll finish with either the second or third best record in the league. So we are officially out of the, oh, this is all gravy, oh my gosh, no expectations. We’re officially in like, oh this could end in disappointment or this could end in, dare I say, a championship?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ll say it’s probably not a surprise to the coach, Natalie Nakase, and the owner, Joe Lacob, who said that he wanted a championship within the first five years of starting the franchise. So just for some context, last year, like you said, first-year teams are not supposed to be very good. They defied expectations and just squeaked into the playoffs, which was already a huge accomplishment. No team in the WNBA had ever made it to the playoffs in their first year. This time, as of this taping, they are 31 and 12, and we’ll finish with either the second or third best record in the league. So we are officially out of the, oh, this is all gravy, oh my gosh, no expectations. We’re officially in like, oh this could end in disappointment or this could end in, dare I say, a championship?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>You’re a true fan because you know that those are the different ways things could go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s too late. I already opened my heart to elation or disappointment. That’s how it goes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Alan, can you talk a little bit about what makes this team so good and what has made them so good?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>A lot of the things that made the team impressive last year have gotten even better this year. The most important thing to know is defense. The Valkyries have the best defense in the league. They play together, they play hard. But I think the key thing to note about their defense, even if you’re not super into basketball, is that they play connected. Basketball is a very fast-moving sport. The ball moves around a lot, people dribble into the paint, they try and kick it out for three. So, what matters a lot is togetherness and quickness. The ability to recover if someone beats you, this team is elite at that. So it’s not just one individual defender, two individual defenders, it’s five people, no matter who’s on the floor, kind of playing on a string. The other thing I would say is the team’s depth. Those of you listening who were around for the 2015 Golden State Warriors know that the motto for that team was strength in numbers. I would that applies equally as much to this year’s edition of the Valkyries. So by depth, I mean, they can play lots of good players off their bench. It means that even when the starters are off the floor, this team is a threat to make a run. The other thing I’ll say is home court advantage. Chase Center, AKA Ballhalla, is loud. It’s sold out every single game over two seasons. And in multiple surveys across the league, players and coaches and other teams have said that the Valkyries have the best home court advantage in the league. Wow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>A lot of the things that made the team impressive last year have gotten even better this year. The most important thing to know is defense. The Valkyries have the best defense in the league. They play together, they play hard. But I think the key thing to note about their defense, even if you’re not super into basketball, is that they play connected. Basketball is a very fast-moving sport. The ball moves around a lot, people dribble into the paint, they try and kick it out for three. So, what matters a lot is togetherness and quickness. The ability to recover if someone beats you, this team is elite at that. So it’s not just one individual defender, two individual defenders, it’s five people, no matter who’s on the floor, kind of playing on a string. The other thing I would say is the team’s depth. Those of you listening who were around for the 2015 Golden State Warriors know that the motto for that team was strength in numbers. I would that applies equally as much to this year’s edition of the Valkyries. So by depth, I mean, they can play lots of good players off their bench. It means that even when the starters are off the floor, this team is a threat to make a run. The other thing I’ll say is home court advantage. Chase Center, AKA Ballhalla, is loud. It’s sold out every single game over two seasons. And in multiple surveys across the league, players and coaches and other teams have said that the Valkyries have the best home court advantage in the league. Wow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Not surprising at all. Have you been to Valkyrie’s game, Erika?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Not surprising at all. Have you been to Valkyrie’s game, Erika?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes, I went last season and it was so much fun. The music is loud, people are dressed up, everyone’s wearing purple. The people, you can see that there are people who come to all the games or a lot of the games who are just, you know, already die-hard fans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> It’s also very. I feel like intergenerational, like there’s so many kids, but also a lot of older people too, a lot women, which is which is very nice to see.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> It’s also very. I feel like intergenerational, like there’s so many kids, but also a lot of older people too, a lot women, which is which is very nice to see.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes absolutely and yeah and it’s really part of this whole like growth in women’s sports in the Bay Area. I also go see Bay FC the women’s soccer team down in the South Bay and again it’s like it’s very intergenerational a lot of women a lot and just a lot a love for the team. So when do the playoffs start and do you think they could actually win it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes absolutely and yeah and it’s really part of this whole like growth in women’s sports in the Bay Area. I also go see Bay FC the women’s soccer team down in the South Bay and again it’s like it’s very intergenerational a lot of women a lot and just a lot a love for the team. So when do the playoffs start and do you think they could actually win it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So we don’t know who they’re playing yet as of this taping. By the time this airs, we might know who their first round opponent is. But we do know that game one is going to be at Chase Center on Sunday. The WNBA playoffs are three rounds. As to their chances, I would say they are not the favorites, but they have a real shot. They do not necessarily have the superstar power of other teams like Minnesota or Las Vegas. But the things that I mentioned earlier in terms of this team’s defense, their togetherness, their toughness. Especially if the three-pointers are going in too, I think they could do it. I mean, it would be a surprise, but this team has surpassed expectations before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So we don’t know who they’re playing yet as of this taping. By the time this airs, we might know who their first round opponent is. But we do know that game one is going to be at Chase Center on Sunday. The WNBA playoffs are three rounds. As to their chances, I would say they are not the favorites, but they have a real shot. They do not necessarily have the superstar power of other teams like Minnesota or Las Vegas. But the things that I mentioned earlier in terms of this team’s defense, their togetherness, their toughness. Especially if the three-pointers are going in too, I think they could do it. I mean, it would be a surprise, but this team has surpassed expectations before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And before we go, this is actually our senior editor, Alan Montecillo:’s very last news roundup with us here at The Bay. Alan, you’re leaving the Bay, the show, but you’re also leaving the Bay Area. Where are you going?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And before we go, this is actually our senior editor, Alan Montecillo:’s very last news roundup with us here at The Bay. Alan, you’re leaving the Bay, the show, but you’re also leaving the Bay Area. Where are you going?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>I am moving to St. Louis with my partner who started a graduate program there. So next week I will be leaving KQED after nearly seven years with the show and hundreds of episodes later. Mm, definitely. Yeah, hard to count. And so it’s bittersweet. Excited for the new opportunity, but also I will miss the team very much and just all the work we’ve done.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>I am moving to St. Louis with my partner who started a graduate program there. So next week I will be leaving KQED after nearly seven years with the show and hundreds of episodes later. Mm, definitely. Yeah, hard to count. And so it’s bittersweet. Excited for the new opportunity, but also I will miss the team very much and just all the work we’ve done.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I remember when you first started on the Bay, right before actually the pandemic. I think I mentioned this to you the other day. You’re like the longest colleague I’ve ever had. I’ve never been a coworker with someone for as long as I’ve been on a team with you. And it’s been a pleasure and we’re gonna miss you. We’re gonna to miss you on the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I remember when you first started on the Bay, right before actually the pandemic. I think I mentioned this to you the other day. You’re like the longest colleague I’ve ever had. I’ve never been a coworker with someone for as long as I’ve been on a team with you. And it’s been a pleasure and we’re gonna miss you. We’re gonna to miss you on the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Thank you, ECG. It’s been so much fun working on this team. And I’m grateful to have worked at KQED and also with everyone who’s ever worked on The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Thank you, ECG. It’s been so much fun working on this team. And I’m grateful to have worked at KQED and also with everyone who’s ever worked on The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Alan Montecillo, senior editor of The Bay, for the last time, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Alan Montecillo, senior editor of The Bay, for the last time, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Erika Kelly, Interim Managing Editor for KQED. Thank you as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Gabriela Glueck, music courtesy of Audio Network and APM. The base of production of listener supported KQED public media in San Francisco. Support is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQE podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thank you so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>In this edition of The Bay’s monthly news roundup, we discuss a new report that found traffic delays could double if voters reject two public transit-related ballot measures. We also discuss a pilot program that builds solar panels over irrigation canals and preview the Golden State Valkyries return to the playoffs. Plus, we say goodbye to The Bay’s senior editor, Alan Montecillo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links: \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12100738/bay-bridge-traffic-delays-would-double-if-transit-tax-measures-fail-report-finds\">Bay Bridge Traffic Delays Would Double if Transit Tax Measures Fail, Report Finds \u003c/a>(KQED)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/2002033/heres-what-california-is-learning-from-solar-panels-built-over-irrigation-canals\">Here’s What California Is Learning From Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals \u003c/a>(KQED)\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2026/09/20/golden-state-valkyries-historic-season-title-contenders/\">The Valkyries aren’t just an impressive expansion team. This is an all-time season \u003c/a>(SF Standard) \u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay’s September News Roundup where we sit down and talk about some of the other stories on our radars this month. Today I’m joined by the Bay Senior Editor, Alan Montecillo. Hey, Alan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Hello, good morning.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And our very special guest this month is Erika Kelly, KQED’s interim managing editor. Hey, Erika.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Hello, Ericka. Two Erikas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Lots of Erikas.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Erika, folks might not be familiar with your voice and your name, but can you tell us a little bit more about what you do here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I usually am behind the scenes, and one of the things I really love about my job is that I get to work with teams across the newsroom covering all kinds of things from arts to housing to politics to labor and to health and climate, which is what I’m gonna talk about here today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I can’t believe it but fall is finally here, though it doesn’t really feel like it this week. It’s a little hot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>It’s Bay Area summer in September.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It is Bay Area summer, but that means the election is very near and our newsroom is gearing up and so are we, Alan. We’re working on Prop Fest, folks might remember that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is a collaboration between us and our friends at Bay Curious. So starting Monday, September 28th, every weekday until Friday, October 9th, expect daily drops in your feed about all 14 ballot measures on the ballot at the state level in this election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>If you’re in need of some help this November, I mean, there are 14 props, way too many.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>And they’re really complicated at times, too. Sometimes they’re simple, they’re like, should we do this or that? And sometimes they’re about process. Sometimes they are about some insidery fight between political factions. So there’s a lot to talk about with many of these.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s dive in then. We’re actually gonna start with my story here about a forecast report on what traffic would look like in the Bay Area if voters reject two ballot measures to fund BART, AC Transit, Muni, and Caltrain. And the forecast report is not pretty. It just is expected to get way worse than we already see it right now if voters reject this year’s regional transit measure and Prop H in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>There are actually two measures you’re talking about. What would they actually do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So the regional transit measure affects five Bay Area counties. It’s a half cent sales tax in Alameda, Contra Costa, San Mateo, and Santa Clara counties. For voters in San Francisco it’s one cent sales that is expected to generate about a billion dollars annually. Our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman reported on some new research published by the San Francisco Bay Area Planning and Urban Research Association, or SPUR. It’s a nonpartisan, non-profit public policy think tank. I should mention though that SPUR is a sponsor of one of the tax measures in question, but SPUR actually hired this engineering and infrastructure consulting firm to do this analysis. And it found that traffic in the Bay Area would more than double.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>That sounds apocalyptic for people who are already sitting in a lot of really bad Bay Area traffic. What are the things that are going to drive that? Does it mean fewer BART trains, fewer Muni trains, all those kinds of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it might be helpful to step back a little bit and talk about, I guess, really like the stakes of these transit measures on the ballot this November. So, BART, AC Transit, Muni, Caltrain, all really struggling since the pandemic to get people back riding their busses and trains. BART has been operating at 50% of ridership since the pandemic and each of these agencies face I mean, massive, massive budget deficits because of these pandemic era drops. And so these agencies are basically planning really big cuts if voters reject this regional transit measure. BART plans to close up to 15 stations. Caltrain plans to closed up to 10 stations. Muni stands to eliminate like 20 routes on their lines, and what this report shows is that without transit agencies operating at the same capacity that they are now, that’s just going to mean way, way, more traffic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Right, because presumably all these people who used to take BART into the city will have to figure out something else, probably drive more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Exactly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>When we say traffic is projected to double in the Bay Area, what do we mean by that? Does the report focus on specific crowded, you know, congested commute areas like the Bay Bridge, for instance?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh absolutely, I mean we all already know, it’s absolutely crazy on the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Didn’t you drive in this morning?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I did drive in this morning and it was horrendous, which is why I never really do drive in, but it just is expected to get, yeah, way worse than we already see it right now. And it’s especially gonna be hard for commuters in the East Bay who might hit multiple bottlenecks along the way into San Francisco, for example, so the Bay Bridge is expected to see delays from 30 minutes during the morning and afternoon rush to something more like 63 minutes in the morning and 73 minutes in the afternoon. And our colleague Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman actually talked with Laura Tolkoff, she’s the transportation policy director at SPUR, just about some of these findings.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Tolkoff \u003c/strong>Even if you don’t ride transit every day, your life is better because there is transit in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So, this report was published by SPUR, which is supporting the regional measure and then Prop H in San Francisco. Is there anyone out there saying, like, this is overblown, it’s not a big deal, these agencies just need to spend their money better, because there are groups opposing these measures to raise taxes to fund transit, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There is a campaign launched by the Contra Costa Taxpayers Association, who is opposed to the regional transit measure. And yeah, our colleague Azul has reported that this group is really arguing that these transit agencies should use their money better. And by that, they mean maybe reallocating money from certain projects to reduce their budget deficits. They also have argued that some of these agencies should increase efficiencies, so maybe try and reduce pay for some of their highest paid employees and stop construction on some of these ongoing projects to maybe fund day-to-day operations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And that is it for my story. We’re gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, we’ll dig into some of the other stories that we’ve been following this month. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, please consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. And we’re back with The Bay’s September News Roundup. Erika Kelly, what story did you bring for us today?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the story that has been ticking over my brain this week is called, Here’s What California Is Learning From Solar Panels Built Over Irrigation Canals. And it is by our tremendous intern, Ella Jackson. So this story is part of a series we’re called Flipping the Switch, and it is all about California’s effort to transition to clean and renewable energy by 2045. So I have a question for you. Have you ever driven down I-5 and seen the canals with all the water flowing in them?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Mm-hmm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So California has thousands of miles of these things that carry water all over the state. So Ella went out to Turlock in the Central Valley to get a look at a pilot project where they have built solar panels over a small section of the canal. And the idea is to see whether building these solar panels over the canal can provide energy and also protect the canals from evaporation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So the story is what California is learning from this. So what do these solar panels do? What are we learning from?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>So the pilot project is a collaboration between a firm called Solar AquaGrid, the local Turlock Irrigation District, UC Merced, and the California Department of Water Resources. And they have a lot of questions. And one of the things the researchers have learned is that if the state put panels over 100 miles of its canals, depending on the size, it could save enough water for 11,000 households, it could save that much water from evaporating into the atmosphere. It could also generate 1,400 megawatts of energy. Now, I don’t think much in megawatths, but that translates into enough power for 304,000 household. So really what we’re looking at is like a possible win-win for these like two thorny environmental problems, which is loss of water and also the need for clean energy. One of the other reasons it is potentially good is like, you need a lot of space to build solar panels, but to be able to build solar farms on undeveloped land, research shows that the permitting process can be up to two years, and much longer than if you’re trying to build it on something that’s already developed. So, that is like sort of the, third win in this win-win-win situation where you can build this on land that’s already being used and so you don’t come up against a lot of the resistance that could come from folks who are concerned about either wildlife in open areas or about concerns nearby to homes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Looking at the picture of just like what this even looks like I mean it looks massive like a huge solar panel over like a canal of water I can imagine this being maybe really expensive to do. I mean you mentioned this is just a pilot project, are there any limits to this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right now, yes, there is a question about cost, and the state at the moment is not committing to do more of it. It’s also, this can’t work everywhere. Ella spoke to somebody in Contra Costa County who oversees the the irrigation canals there, and their canals sit, instead of sitting out in the middle of fields and by a big highway, they run through people’s backyards and they run by parks. And so there is not the access and the space to be able to build a structure like this. So it might work some places, but it’s not gonna work everywhere. And actually this story has been read by a ton of people online. It’s actually generating a lot of conversation. Some of it is about the cost. Some of is about, about the costs of the steel, the like the feasibility of all of it. And so I think that’s really interesting about this story is like on the surface, this seems like a perfect solution to these big problems. But then you really have to dig down into the nitty gritty and say, how does it actually get done?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Isn’t this one of the most read stories on the website right now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Not only is it number one on our website this week, but it is about to surpass every other story we have published over the last year.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Wow. Why do you think that is?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>I’ve been thinking about this a lot. And I think it really has captured people’s imaginations about what is possible when we are dealing with these huge, like I said, these huge environmental problems. How do we generate clean energy in order to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels? How do save water in a state that is famous for not having enough water? People love a solution. They love an idea of a solution and the idea that it could be win-win. You know, a lot of things seem hard or impossible and I think on the face of it, this seems like, oh, but of course.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>It kind of feels like, duh, like the solution has sort of been right under our noses this whole time and maybe that’s what’s also capturing people’s imagination with this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Right, like why not?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Well, Erika Kelly, this was such an interesting story. Thank you so much for bringing it today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Thank you for having me. I love talking about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And last but not least, senior editor Alan Montecillo, what story have you been following this month?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So last year, the Golden State Valkyries made the playoffs in their inaugural season. They surprised everybody. They sold out all other games with a record of 23 and 21. But this year they are back in the playoffs, which start on Sunday, and they’re one of the best teams in the league.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I know when they first started out, no one really expected them to be good, but then they were. And then after that, I think there was maybe an expectation that things would get harder over time. But it seems like they’re just still riding this wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, I’ll say it’s probably not a surprise to the coach, Natalie Nakase, and the owner, Joe Lacob, who said that he wanted a championship within the first five years of starting the franchise. So just for some context, last year, like you said, first-year teams are not supposed to be very good. They defied expectations and just squeaked into the playoffs, which was already a huge accomplishment. No team in the WNBA had ever made it to the playoffs in their first year. This time, as of this taping, they are 31 and 12, and we’ll finish with either the second or third best record in the league. So we are officially out of the, oh, this is all gravy, oh my gosh, no expectations. We’re officially in like, oh this could end in disappointment or this could end in, dare I say, a championship?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>You’re a true fan because you know that those are the different ways things could go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s too late. I already opened my heart to elation or disappointment. That’s how it goes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Alan, can you talk a little bit about what makes this team so good and what has made them so good?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>A lot of the things that made the team impressive last year have gotten even better this year. The most important thing to know is defense. The Valkyries have the best defense in the league. They play together, they play hard. But I think the key thing to note about their defense, even if you’re not super into basketball, is that they play connected. Basketball is a very fast-moving sport. The ball moves around a lot, people dribble into the paint, they try and kick it out for three. So, what matters a lot is togetherness and quickness. The ability to recover if someone beats you, this team is elite at that. So it’s not just one individual defender, two individual defenders, it’s five people, no matter who’s on the floor, kind of playing on a string. The other thing I would say is the team’s depth. Those of you listening who were around for the 2015 Golden State Warriors know that the motto for that team was strength in numbers. I would that applies equally as much to this year’s edition of the Valkyries. So by depth, I mean, they can play lots of good players off their bench. It means that even when the starters are off the floor, this team is a threat to make a run. The other thing I’ll say is home court advantage. Chase Center, AKA Ballhalla, is loud. It’s sold out every single game over two seasons. And in multiple surveys across the league, players and coaches and other teams have said that the Valkyries have the best home court advantage in the league. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Not surprising at all. Have you been to Valkyrie’s game, Erika?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes, I went last season and it was so much fun. The music is loud, people are dressed up, everyone’s wearing purple. The people, you can see that there are people who come to all the games or a lot of the games who are just, you know, already die-hard fans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong> It’s also very. I feel like intergenerational, like there’s so many kids, but also a lot of older people too, a lot women, which is which is very nice to see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>Yes absolutely and yeah and it’s really part of this whole like growth in women’s sports in the Bay Area. I also go see Bay FC the women’s soccer team down in the South Bay and again it’s like it’s very intergenerational a lot of women a lot and just a lot a love for the team. So when do the playoffs start and do you think they could actually win it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>So we don’t know who they’re playing yet as of this taping. By the time this airs, we might know who their first round opponent is. But we do know that game one is going to be at Chase Center on Sunday. The WNBA playoffs are three rounds. As to their chances, I would say they are not the favorites, but they have a real shot. They do not necessarily have the superstar power of other teams like Minnesota or Las Vegas. But the things that I mentioned earlier in terms of this team’s defense, their togetherness, their toughness. Especially if the three-pointers are going in too, I think they could do it. I mean, it would be a surprise, but this team has surpassed expectations before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And before we go, this is actually our senior editor, Alan Montecillo:’s very last news roundup with us here at The Bay. Alan, you’re leaving the Bay, the show, but you’re also leaving the Bay Area. Where are you going?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>I am moving to St. Louis with my partner who started a graduate program there. So next week I will be leaving KQED after nearly seven years with the show and hundreds of episodes later. Mm, definitely. Yeah, hard to count. And so it’s bittersweet. Excited for the new opportunity, but also I will miss the team very much and just all the work we’ve done.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I remember when you first started on the Bay, right before actually the pandemic. I think I mentioned this to you the other day. You’re like the longest colleague I’ve ever had. I’ve never been a coworker with someone for as long as I’ve been on a team with you. And it’s been a pleasure and we’re gonna miss you. We’re gonna to miss you on the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>Thank you, ECG. It’s been so much fun working on this team. And I’m grateful to have worked at KQED and also with everyone who’s ever worked on The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Alan Montecillo, senior editor of The Bay, for the last time, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And Erika Kelly, Interim Managing Editor for KQED. Thank you as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erika Kelly: \u003c/strong>You, Erika.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Gabriela Glueck, music courtesy of Audio Network and APM. The base of production of listener supported KQED public media in San Francisco. Support is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQE podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thank you so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has ramped up immigration arrests at airports in recent months, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/iryna-gorb-sfo-arrest-released-22436690.php\">including at San Francisco International Airport\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to reporting by the San Francisco Chronicle, Customs and Border Protection has also been holding immigrants at SFO – in some cases, for more than a week. Reporter Sara DiNatale joins us to explain how the airport has become a de facto detention center.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/sfo-immigration-detention-ice-22405344.php\">Under Trump, SFO is now a de facto immigration detention center (San Francisco Chronicle)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Earlier this summer, plain clothes immigration officers were seen at San Francisco International Airport, pinning down a woman as she cried for help. Concerned travelers hovered nearby, recording the incident.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iryna Gorb: \u003c/strong>No, they’re fucking ICE! I’m from Ukraine!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The woman would be later identified as 38-year-old Iryna Gorb, a Ukrainian photographer and barista who’s been living and working in the U.S. for the last 16 years. Here’s her friend, Andy Eblin, speaking to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andy Eblin: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason that she’s got a lot of support, she is a good person that helped out a lot. That’s just kinda how she was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Gorb was detained by ICE for seven weeks. And it’s not just people being arrested by ICE at airports. According to reporting from the San Francisco Chronicle, SFO is also being used as a de facto detention center by Customs and Border Protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me like, yeah, a lot of people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we talk with the San Francisco Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale about how airports have become the new frontier in Trump’s immigration crackdown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>It’s not like this is happening constantly, but it is still happening more because it used to never happen. Historically ICE agents have not entered airports, domestic terminals, picking up people for visa overstays, especially people with visa overstay that have no criminal history. So we have seen this happen at our airport in San Francisco, it picked up over the summer and around that same time that we were noticing it locally, the New York Times tracked that it was happening regularly or at least semi-regularly at 15 major airports across the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, this is not something that we’ve seen before, like these kinds of immigration enforcement actions happening at airports. I mean is this part of a broader strategy by the Trump administration to target immigrants at airports specifically?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So it’s not like the Trump administration or ICE has come out directly and said, like, this is our strategical avenue we’re taking, but the impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me, like, yeah, a lot people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport. The reason we think that is likely what’s happening is because we do know that there are current court orders that are preventing ICE from targeting court houses, which is the main enforcement efforts we saw last year. So the thought among immigration attorneys and other experts in immigration is that the shift to focusing on airports is a response to the fact that it is not as easy anymore to get people when they’re doing court hearings or check-ins with ICE because of these court orders. Trump has still made it clear that he has, you know, these large deportation goals. And so that is why people think airports have become a shift in that strategy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Can you kind of describe some of the kinds of immigration actions that are happening at airports like SFO?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the videos we’ve seen all follow a very similar formula. You typically see plain, closed ICE agents. It’s not particularly obvious that they’re federal immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iryna Gorb: \u003c/strong>I need more! No!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>They are coming to the airport with some kind of list or understanding of exactly who they’re targeting. TSA is likely sharing information. So they’re intersecting them either right when they’re getting off a flight or waiting to get on a flight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So we’re seeing these videos of people getting arrested at airports, but also your reporting has shown that people are actually being detained and held at San Francisco International Airport by Customs and Border Protection sometimes for days. Can you tell us a little bit more about what your reporting found?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and there’s an important distinction here. Both practices are both part of Trump’s broader deportation crackdown, but the methods and framework that are being used are a little different. So when we’re talking about the people who are in domestic terminals that ICE agents are arresting in, those people are not the same people that we found being held in the airport. The people being held at the airport are flying internationally. Because when you’re flying internationally, you are essentially at the border asking for entry. And what we found and what our reporting found is that the people held at the airport are having this longer in-between step. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> So what exactly has changed? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> Traditionally, if you had been flying internationally you have a work permit visa or a green card and something about your background check pops in the Customs and Border Protection system. If it wasn’t like an active warrant, typically they would say, hey, something weird popped up on your your background check, we need to set up a follow up appointment to go through this, you would get like a temporary release. So you’re allowed to leave the airport and you know, you have to come back and check with the customs officers. Sometimes you would be able to bring your immigration attorney. And they’re basically holding your green card or your work permit as collateral. So like people always came back for these appointments. It wasn’t like people were running off. But now the follow-up appointment, which is called deferred inspection, is essentially dead. And so instead of a follow-up appointment, they’re just holding them at the airport until they can decide what to do with them. And typically the end decision, which sometimes can take up to a week or more, is to transfer them to ICE detention with an order to go before an immigration judge to decide whether or not they’re admissible into the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You’re saying some of these folks are being held at the airport for up to a week, potentially?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yes. So typically what happens because these are often really old arrests. And in a lot of cases, they are expunged from their state record. So they’re flying, not realizing that the federal system being used for the background check will still pull up a state expunges arrest. And then the agents are saying, Okay, well, we need to request your original court records. And until we have those court records to decide if you should be admitted or not. You just have to hold tight and the time that they’re waiting to get those records can span. If it is a Friday, the court is not going to send the certified records over the weekend. I’ve also had immigration attorneys tell me like, I have certified court records for the, like for this individual and I’m happy to bring them. And the agent said, no, we need them directly from either the arresting police agency or the court. Even if that was the case in the before times, it didn’t automatically mean you needed to be detained while you were awaiting that hearing. But now under Trump’s current executive orders, he’s made it very clear if there is a question about your admissibility and questions about your criminal history, you absolutely need to remain detained. They still have in there, it’s still linked on their website, you can read it, that people should not be held for more than 72 hours. And when we looked at the federal data which encompassed all the airports, we found that Customs and Border Protection has detained more than 400 people at international airports for longer than 72-hours since January and through July. And then of that 400 people, 146 were people who had valid green cards, so they were lawful permanent residents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And where exactly in the airport are they being held?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> It’s between A and G and like the part that connects both terminals that you like walk between. It’s all behind like the area you can’t get to unless like a customs agent is like walking with you. So this particular room is like kind of deep into the innards of the airport. There’s no windows. I have not been inside of it. They will not let me in. But it’s been described to me as just like a very, it looks like a basic like waiting room. Not somewhere you wanna sleep for days. There’s no beds. If you’ve ever been through customs and you get pulled for a secondary interview, you’re not allowed to have your phone. And that is the same with when you’re in being held in one of these rooms. You don’t have a phone or anything. So at SFO we know of 25 people who were held there for more than 72 hours from January through July and then 19 of those 25 people were transferred to ICE custody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with The Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting our work by becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And like you said, this detainment area is really out of sight, and we haven’t known a lot about what is actually happening there, but you actually talked with a 67-year-old man who was held there. Tell me about him and his story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>During this reporting process, I met a 67 year old man who was held at SFO for eight days starting in March. He agreed to talk to us without publishing his name because he doesn’t want any more attention to be put on his legal status. He is a green card holder. He has been a lawful permanent resident here for decades and he’s lived here legally for about 50 years. So he lives in Fresno. He was flying back from a trip to Mexico. And when he lands in Fresno, he is sitting on the plane and federal agents board and call his name. And they take him into custody right then and there. They cuffed his wrists and his feet, and they put him into a van, and they drove him to SFO. He was very confused about like what he was being arrested for on his way there actually in the van. He’s already starting to panic, especially because of his medical conditions. So he has diabetes and it was the end of his trip. So he didn’t have any more insulin on him because he was expecting to go home. Customs agents put him in this room. He is allowed one phone call to contact his son specifically just to ask for his medications. His son has to drive then from Fresno to SFO to deliver the medications. He also has no way to test his blood sugar. And it isn’t until a paramedic from the airport comes in to check him. That it becomes clear that he is having an episode. His blood sugar is way out of a normal range, he clearly needs insulin, and they do give him his insulin from his son finally, and he’s able to use it. He’s there for eight days. So through that eight days, he only had his blood sugar checked one time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How did he describe the conditions inside SFO while he was being detained?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>He described the whole experience as psychological torture. You know, he didn’t have a change of clothes. So they do take him to, they escort him to a shower every three days, but then he’s changing back into his dirty clothes after. You know he doesn’t have bed. So he’s described sleeping upright for the entire time. And you know, he was only snatching a couple hours of sleep in between, you know like it’s difficult to sleep upright. And in addition, the lights were always on. The diabetes wasn’t the only medical issue he had. He had some other medications he was required to take, and I didn’t even mention he’s also mostly blind. He doesn’t describe there being a formal medical screening, which is something you would expect and is required of any holding facility.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What do we know about why he was detained by Customs and Border Protection?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so he wasn’t given a lot of clarity while it was happening to him. But he had an old 20 year old like run in with law enforcement that they essentially were looking into. I had one attorney I spoke with about just like this process describing it like a fishing expedition, like they are looking for something that they can argue makes you inadmissible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So he was held at SFO for eight days, you said Sara. Where is he now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So, after his eight days, he was transferred to California City, which is the state’s largest detention center. Once he gets to California City, it takes a minute for him to be able to get connected with legal representation, but he eventually does. And they’re able to sort of untangle this old arrest and, you know, go before the court, make sure it’s clear that it’s a misdemeanor charge. And after five months, he does eventually get out. So he’s out, he has his green card still intact, and he’s just kind of recovering from this whole experience, which of course was very traumatic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Sara, you’re describing, I mean in his words, psychological torture, people being held for days without really understanding why, not having access to legal representation. I mean is this legal? I mean can Customs and Border Protection just do this at airports here in the United States?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So when someone is coming, re-entering the country, court history and case law history, time and time again says the government has its peak authority at that moment, because it is a matter of national security. And that gives them a lot of latitude to do these things within a legal framework. That’s not to say that like everything they’re doing is legal and won’t face legal challenges. We have seen attorneys challenge these spaces and, you know, saying, hey, you need to at least make sure they meet, like, the minimum requirement for what makes a facility safe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And is Customs and Border Protection still keeping people in conditions like this within SFO?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So since the 67-year-old’s detainment, Customs and Border Protections has started using a different room to house people and that room has padded benches where people can actually lay down. So that’s an improvement, at least slightly in the conditions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what does the airport say? Like, do they have any jurisdiction over how customs operate?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The airport itself has no control over what customs does with its space. So SFO cannot tell customs, hey, we don’t like this and you need to stop. Like because the airport is a border, customs has to have a space to operate and the airport has to provide that space. And once they hand over that space to them, they really can’t control what they do in it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how has the Trump administration responded to this story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>They did not respond to a long list of questions I sent them. I asked customs directly like, hey, I see in your guidelines that you have the 72-hour hold policy. Is that no longer a policy? And that was one of the specific questions they did not answer. I reached out to Congressman Kevin Mullin. He wound up using his congressional authority to demand inspection of the facility. Congressman Mullin was able to ask them some direct questions during his visit. According to him, they told him like, yes, this is a distinct policy shift under Trump. We would have given these people follow-up appointments before and now we keep them here. You know, they said sometimes because of waiting on court records and weekends. Uh, sometimes people are here longer than three days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, it seems just like it’s safe to say that airports have sort of become this new frontier in Trump’s immigration crackdown, I’m curious what immigrant attorneys and advocates are advising people to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely the advice out there to just not travel, and I understand why people are heeding that advice. I would say if you are someone with a green card or another visa, you need to be really aware of exactly what your status is. So if you’re a green-card holder who has had a past brushing with law enforcement, you need to really sure that if you think your charges are vacated that they actually are before you travel internationally. And then for those who have visa overstays, the risk is that you will be targeted even if you don’t have any criminal history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Sara, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us. I appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> That was Sara DiNatale, a politics reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle. We’ll leave you a link to Sara’s reporting on this in our show notes. Thanks as well to KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti for some of the tape that you heard at the top of this episode. This episode was cut down and edited by producer Gabriela Glueck. It was produced and scored by me. Our senior editor is Alan Montecillo, music courtesy of AudioNetwork. If you wanna reach us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebayatkqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening to The Bay. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Earlier this summer, plain clothes immigration officers were seen at San Francisco International Airport, pinning down a woman as she cried for help. Concerned travelers hovered nearby, recording the incident.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Earlier this summer, plain clothes immigration officers were seen at San Francisco International Airport, pinning down a woman as she cried for help. Concerned travelers hovered nearby, recording the incident.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iryna Gorb: \u003c/strong>No, they’re fucking ICE! I’m from Ukraine!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The woman would be later identified as 38-year-old Iryna Gorb, a Ukrainian photographer and barista who’s been living and working in the U.S. for the last 16 years. Here’s her friend, Andy Eblin, speaking to KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The woman would be later identified as 38-year-old Iryna Gorb, a Ukrainian photographer and barista who’s been living and working in the U.S. for the last 16 years. Here’s her friend, Andy Eblin, speaking to KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andy Eblin: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason that she’s got a lot of support, she is a good person that helped out a lot. That’s just kinda how she was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andy Eblin: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason that she’s got a lot of support, she is a good person that helped out a lot. That’s just kinda how she was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Gorb was detained by ICE for seven weeks. And it’s not just people being arrested by ICE at airports. According to reporting from the San Francisco Chronicle, SFO is also being used as a de facto detention center by Customs and Border Protection.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Gorb was detained by ICE for seven weeks. And it’s not just people being arrested by ICE at airports. According to reporting from the San Francisco Chronicle, SFO is also being used as a de facto detention center by Customs and Border Protection.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me like, yeah, a lot of people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me like, yeah, a lot of people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we talk with the San Francisco Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale about how airports have become the new frontier in Trump’s immigration crackdown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>It’s not like this is happening constantly, but it is still happening more because it used to never happen. Historically ICE agents have not entered airports, domestic terminals, picking up people for visa overstays, especially people with visa overstay that have no criminal history. So we have seen this happen at our airport in San Francisco, it picked up over the summer and around that same time that we were noticing it locally, the New York Times tracked that it was happening regularly or at least semi-regularly at 15 major airports across the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>It’s not like this is happening constantly, but it is still happening more because it used to never happen. Historically ICE agents have not entered airports, domestic terminals, picking up people for visa overstays, especially people with visa overstay that have no criminal history. So we have seen this happen at our airport in San Francisco, it picked up over the summer and around that same time that we were noticing it locally, the New York Times tracked that it was happening regularly or at least semi-regularly at 15 major airports across the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, this is not something that we’ve seen before, like these kinds of immigration enforcement actions happening at airports. I mean is this part of a broader strategy by the Trump administration to target immigrants at airports specifically?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So it’s not like the Trump administration or ICE has come out directly and said, like, this is our strategical avenue we’re taking, but the impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me, like, yeah, a lot people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport. The reason we think that is likely what’s happening is because we do know that there are current court orders that are preventing ICE from targeting court houses, which is the main enforcement efforts we saw last year. So the thought among immigration attorneys and other experts in immigration is that the shift to focusing on airports is a response to the fact that it is not as easy anymore to get people when they’re doing court hearings or check-ins with ICE because of these court orders. Trump has still made it clear that he has, you know, these large deportation goals. And so that is why people think airports have become a shift in that strategy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So it’s not like the Trump administration or ICE has come out directly and said, like, this is our strategical avenue we’re taking, but the impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me, like, yeah, a lot people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport. The reason we think that is likely what’s happening is because we do know that there are current court orders that are preventing ICE from targeting court houses, which is the main enforcement efforts we saw last year. So the thought among immigration attorneys and other experts in immigration is that the shift to focusing on airports is a response to the fact that it is not as easy anymore to get people when they’re doing court hearings or check-ins with ICE because of these court orders. Trump has still made it clear that he has, you know, these large deportation goals. And so that is why people think airports have become a shift in that strategy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Can you kind of describe some of the kinds of immigration actions that are happening at airports like SFO?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Can you kind of describe some of the kinds of immigration actions that are happening at airports like SFO?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the videos we’ve seen all follow a very similar formula. You typically see plain, closed ICE agents. It’s not particularly obvious that they’re federal immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iryna Gorb: \u003c/strong>I need more! No!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>They are coming to the airport with some kind of list or understanding of exactly who they’re targeting. TSA is likely sharing information. So they’re intersecting them either right when they’re getting off a flight or waiting to get on a flight.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So we’re seeing these videos of people getting arrested at airports, but also your reporting has shown that people are actually being detained and held at San Francisco International Airport by Customs and Border Protection sometimes for days. Can you tell us a little bit more about what your reporting found?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So we’re seeing these videos of people getting arrested at airports, but also your reporting has shown that people are actually being detained and held at San Francisco International Airport by Customs and Border Protection sometimes for days. Can you tell us a little bit more about what your reporting found?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and there’s an important distinction here. Both practices are both part of Trump’s broader deportation crackdown, but the methods and framework that are being used are a little different. So when we’re talking about the people who are in domestic terminals that ICE agents are arresting in, those people are not the same people that we found being held in the airport. The people being held at the airport are flying internationally. Because when you’re flying internationally, you are essentially at the border asking for entry. And what we found and what our reporting found is that the people held at the airport are having this longer in-between step. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and there’s an important distinction here. Both practices are both part of Trump’s broader deportation crackdown, but the methods and framework that are being used are a little different. So when we’re talking about the people who are in domestic terminals that ICE agents are arresting in, those people are not the same people that we found being held in the airport. The people being held at the airport are flying internationally. Because when you’re flying internationally, you are essentially at the border asking for entry. And what we found and what our reporting found is that the people held at the airport are having this longer in-between step. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> So what exactly has changed? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> Traditionally, if you had been flying internationally you have a work permit visa or a green card and something about your background check pops in the Customs and Border Protection system. If it wasn’t like an active warrant, typically they would say, hey, something weird popped up on your your background check, we need to set up a follow up appointment to go through this, you would get like a temporary release. So you’re allowed to leave the airport and you know, you have to come back and check with the customs officers. Sometimes you would be able to bring your immigration attorney. And they’re basically holding your green card or your work permit as collateral. So like people always came back for these appointments. It wasn’t like people were running off. But now the follow-up appointment, which is called deferred inspection, is essentially dead. And so instead of a follow-up appointment, they’re just holding them at the airport until they can decide what to do with them. And typically the end decision, which sometimes can take up to a week or more, is to transfer them to ICE detention with an order to go before an immigration judge to decide whether or not they’re admissible into the country.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> Traditionally, if you had been flying internationally you have a work permit visa or a green card and something about your background check pops in the Customs and Border Protection system. If it wasn’t like an active warrant, typically they would say, hey, something weird popped up on your your background check, we need to set up a follow up appointment to go through this, you would get like a temporary release. So you’re allowed to leave the airport and you know, you have to come back and check with the customs officers. Sometimes you would be able to bring your immigration attorney. And they’re basically holding your green card or your work permit as collateral. So like people always came back for these appointments. It wasn’t like people were running off. But now the follow-up appointment, which is called deferred inspection, is essentially dead. And so instead of a follow-up appointment, they’re just holding them at the airport until they can decide what to do with them. And typically the end decision, which sometimes can take up to a week or more, is to transfer them to ICE detention with an order to go before an immigration judge to decide whether or not they’re admissible into the country.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You’re saying some of these folks are being held at the airport for up to a week, potentially?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You’re saying some of these folks are being held at the airport for up to a week, potentially?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yes. So typically what happens because these are often really old arrests. And in a lot of cases, they are expunged from their state record. So they’re flying, not realizing that the federal system being used for the background check will still pull up a state expunges arrest. And then the agents are saying, Okay, well, we need to request your original court records. And until we have those court records to decide if you should be admitted or not. You just have to hold tight and the time that they’re waiting to get those records can span. If it is a Friday, the court is not going to send the certified records over the weekend. I’ve also had immigration attorneys tell me like, I have certified court records for the, like for this individual and I’m happy to bring them. And the agent said, no, we need them directly from either the arresting police agency or the court. Even if that was the case in the before times, it didn’t automatically mean you needed to be detained while you were awaiting that hearing. But now under Trump’s current executive orders, he’s made it very clear if there is a question about your admissibility and questions about your criminal history, you absolutely need to remain detained. They still have in there, it’s still linked on their website, you can read it, that people should not be held for more than 72 hours. And when we looked at the federal data which encompassed all the airports, we found that Customs and Border Protection has detained more than 400 people at international airports for longer than 72-hours since January and through July. And then of that 400 people, 146 were people who had valid green cards, so they were lawful permanent residents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yes. So typically what happens because these are often really old arrests. And in a lot of cases, they are expunged from their state record. So they’re flying, not realizing that the federal system being used for the background check will still pull up a state expunges arrest. And then the agents are saying, Okay, well, we need to request your original court records. And until we have those court records to decide if you should be admitted or not. You just have to hold tight and the time that they’re waiting to get those records can span. If it is a Friday, the court is not going to send the certified records over the weekend. I’ve also had immigration attorneys tell me like, I have certified court records for the, like for this individual and I’m happy to bring them. And the agent said, no, we need them directly from either the arresting police agency or the court. Even if that was the case in the before times, it didn’t automatically mean you needed to be detained while you were awaiting that hearing. But now under Trump’s current executive orders, he’s made it very clear if there is a question about your admissibility and questions about your criminal history, you absolutely need to remain detained. They still have in there, it’s still linked on their website, you can read it, that people should not be held for more than 72 hours. And when we looked at the federal data which encompassed all the airports, we found that Customs and Border Protection has detained more than 400 people at international airports for longer than 72-hours since January and through July. And then of that 400 people, 146 were people who had valid green cards, so they were lawful permanent residents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And where exactly in the airport are they being held?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And where exactly in the airport are they being held?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> It’s between A and G and like the part that connects both terminals that you like walk between. It’s all behind like the area you can’t get to unless like a customs agent is like walking with you. So this particular room is like kind of deep into the innards of the airport. There’s no windows. I have not been inside of it. They will not let me in. But it’s been described to me as just like a very, it looks like a basic like waiting room. Not somewhere you wanna sleep for days. There’s no beds. If you’ve ever been through customs and you get pulled for a secondary interview, you’re not allowed to have your phone. And that is the same with when you’re in being held in one of these rooms. You don’t have a phone or anything. So at SFO we know of 25 people who were held there for more than 72 hours from January through July and then 19 of those 25 people were transferred to ICE custody.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> It’s between A and G and like the part that connects both terminals that you like walk between. It’s all behind like the area you can’t get to unless like a customs agent is like walking with you. So this particular room is like kind of deep into the innards of the airport. There’s no windows. I have not been inside of it. They will not let me in. But it’s been described to me as just like a very, it looks like a basic like waiting room. Not somewhere you wanna sleep for days. There’s no beds. If you’ve ever been through customs and you get pulled for a secondary interview, you’re not allowed to have your phone. And that is the same with when you’re in being held in one of these rooms. You don’t have a phone or anything. So at SFO we know of 25 people who were held there for more than 72 hours from January through July and then 19 of those 25 people were transferred to ICE custody.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with The Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting our work by becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with The Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting our work by becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And like you said, this detainment area is really out of sight, and we haven’t known a lot about what is actually happening there, but you actually talked with a 67-year-old man who was held there. Tell me about him and his story?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And like you said, this detainment area is really out of sight, and we haven’t known a lot about what is actually happening there, but you actually talked with a 67-year-old man who was held there. Tell me about him and his story?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>During this reporting process, I met a 67 year old man who was held at SFO for eight days starting in March. He agreed to talk to us without publishing his name because he doesn’t want any more attention to be put on his legal status. He is a green card holder. He has been a lawful permanent resident here for decades and he’s lived here legally for about 50 years. So he lives in Fresno. He was flying back from a trip to Mexico. And when he lands in Fresno, he is sitting on the plane and federal agents board and call his name. And they take him into custody right then and there. They cuffed his wrists and his feet, and they put him into a van, and they drove him to SFO. He was very confused about like what he was being arrested for on his way there actually in the van. He’s already starting to panic, especially because of his medical conditions. So he has diabetes and it was the end of his trip. So he didn’t have any more insulin on him because he was expecting to go home. Customs agents put him in this room. He is allowed one phone call to contact his son specifically just to ask for his medications. His son has to drive then from Fresno to SFO to deliver the medications. He also has no way to test his blood sugar. And it isn’t until a paramedic from the airport comes in to check him. That it becomes clear that he is having an episode. His blood sugar is way out of a normal range, he clearly needs insulin, and they do give him his insulin from his son finally, and he’s able to use it. He’s there for eight days. So through that eight days, he only had his blood sugar checked one time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>During this reporting process, I met a 67 year old man who was held at SFO for eight days starting in March. He agreed to talk to us without publishing his name because he doesn’t want any more attention to be put on his legal status. He is a green card holder. He has been a lawful permanent resident here for decades and he’s lived here legally for about 50 years. So he lives in Fresno. He was flying back from a trip to Mexico. And when he lands in Fresno, he is sitting on the plane and federal agents board and call his name. And they take him into custody right then and there. They cuffed his wrists and his feet, and they put him into a van, and they drove him to SFO. He was very confused about like what he was being arrested for on his way there actually in the van. He’s already starting to panic, especially because of his medical conditions. So he has diabetes and it was the end of his trip. So he didn’t have any more insulin on him because he was expecting to go home. Customs agents put him in this room. He is allowed one phone call to contact his son specifically just to ask for his medications. His son has to drive then from Fresno to SFO to deliver the medications. He also has no way to test his blood sugar. And it isn’t until a paramedic from the airport comes in to check him. That it becomes clear that he is having an episode. His blood sugar is way out of a normal range, he clearly needs insulin, and they do give him his insulin from his son finally, and he’s able to use it. He’s there for eight days. So through that eight days, he only had his blood sugar checked one time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How did he describe the conditions inside SFO while he was being detained?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>He described the whole experience as psychological torture. You know, he didn’t have a change of clothes. So they do take him to, they escort him to a shower every three days, but then he’s changing back into his dirty clothes after. You know he doesn’t have bed. So he’s described sleeping upright for the entire time. And you know, he was only snatching a couple hours of sleep in between, you know like it’s difficult to sleep upright. And in addition, the lights were always on. The diabetes wasn’t the only medical issue he had. He had some other medications he was required to take, and I didn’t even mention he’s also mostly blind. He doesn’t describe there being a formal medical screening, which is something you would expect and is required of any holding facility.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>He described the whole experience as psychological torture. You know, he didn’t have a change of clothes. So they do take him to, they escort him to a shower every three days, but then he’s changing back into his dirty clothes after. You know he doesn’t have bed. So he’s described sleeping upright for the entire time. And you know, he was only snatching a couple hours of sleep in between, you know like it’s difficult to sleep upright. And in addition, the lights were always on. The diabetes wasn’t the only medical issue he had. He had some other medications he was required to take, and I didn’t even mention he’s also mostly blind. He doesn’t describe there being a formal medical screening, which is something you would expect and is required of any holding facility.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What do we know about why he was detained by Customs and Border Protection?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What do we know about why he was detained by Customs and Border Protection?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so he wasn’t given a lot of clarity while it was happening to him. But he had an old 20 year old like run in with law enforcement that they essentially were looking into. I had one attorney I spoke with about just like this process describing it like a fishing expedition, like they are looking for something that they can argue makes you inadmissible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so he wasn’t given a lot of clarity while it was happening to him. But he had an old 20 year old like run in with law enforcement that they essentially were looking into. I had one attorney I spoke with about just like this process describing it like a fishing expedition, like they are looking for something that they can argue makes you inadmissible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So he was held at SFO for eight days, you said Sara. Where is he now?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So he was held at SFO for eight days, you said Sara. Where is he now?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So, after his eight days, he was transferred to California City, which is the state’s largest detention center. Once he gets to California City, it takes a minute for him to be able to get connected with legal representation, but he eventually does. And they’re able to sort of untangle this old arrest and, you know, go before the court, make sure it’s clear that it’s a misdemeanor charge. And after five months, he does eventually get out. So he’s out, he has his green card still intact, and he’s just kind of recovering from this whole experience, which of course was very traumatic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So, after his eight days, he was transferred to California City, which is the state’s largest detention center. Once he gets to California City, it takes a minute for him to be able to get connected with legal representation, but he eventually does. And they’re able to sort of untangle this old arrest and, you know, go before the court, make sure it’s clear that it’s a misdemeanor charge. And after five months, he does eventually get out. So he’s out, he has his green card still intact, and he’s just kind of recovering from this whole experience, which of course was very traumatic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Sara, you’re describing, I mean in his words, psychological torture, people being held for days without really understanding why, not having access to legal representation. I mean is this legal? I mean can Customs and Border Protection just do this at airports here in the United States?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Sara, you’re describing, I mean in his words, psychological torture, people being held for days without really understanding why, not having access to legal representation. I mean is this legal? I mean can Customs and Border Protection just do this at airports here in the United States?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So when someone is coming, re-entering the country, court history and case law history, time and time again says the government has its peak authority at that moment, because it is a matter of national security. And that gives them a lot of latitude to do these things within a legal framework. That’s not to say that like everything they’re doing is legal and won’t face legal challenges. We have seen attorneys challenge these spaces and, you know, saying, hey, you need to at least make sure they meet, like, the minimum requirement for what makes a facility safe.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So when someone is coming, re-entering the country, court history and case law history, time and time again says the government has its peak authority at that moment, because it is a matter of national security. And that gives them a lot of latitude to do these things within a legal framework. That’s not to say that like everything they’re doing is legal and won’t face legal challenges. We have seen attorneys challenge these spaces and, you know, saying, hey, you need to at least make sure they meet, like, the minimum requirement for what makes a facility safe.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And is Customs and Border Protection still keeping people in conditions like this within SFO?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And is Customs and Border Protection still keeping people in conditions like this within SFO?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So since the 67-year-old’s detainment, Customs and Border Protections has started using a different room to house people and that room has padded benches where people can actually lay down. So that’s an improvement, at least slightly in the conditions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So since the 67-year-old’s detainment, Customs and Border Protections has started using a different room to house people and that room has padded benches where people can actually lay down. So that’s an improvement, at least slightly in the conditions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what does the airport say? Like, do they have any jurisdiction over how customs operate?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what does the airport say? Like, do they have any jurisdiction over how customs operate?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The airport itself has no control over what customs does with its space. So SFO cannot tell customs, hey, we don’t like this and you need to stop. Like because the airport is a border, customs has to have a space to operate and the airport has to provide that space. And once they hand over that space to them, they really can’t control what they do in it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The airport itself has no control over what customs does with its space. So SFO cannot tell customs, hey, we don’t like this and you need to stop. Like because the airport is a border, customs has to have a space to operate and the airport has to provide that space. And once they hand over that space to them, they really can’t control what they do in it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how has the Trump administration responded to this story?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how has the Trump administration responded to this story?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely the advice out there to just not travel, and I understand why people are heeding that advice. I would say if you are someone with a green card or another visa, you need to be really aware of exactly what your status is. So if you’re a green-card holder who has had a past brushing with law enforcement, you need to really sure that if you think your charges are vacated that they actually are before you travel internationally. And then for those who have visa overstays, the risk is that you will be targeted even if you don’t have any criminal history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Sara, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us. I appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> That was Sara DiNatale, a politics reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle. We’ll leave you a link to Sara’s reporting on this in our show notes. Thanks as well to KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti for some of the tape that you heard at the top of this episode. This episode was cut down and edited by producer Gabriela Glueck. It was produced and scored by me. Our senior editor is Alan Montecillo, music courtesy of AudioNetwork. If you wanna reach us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebayatkqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening to The Bay. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The Department of Homeland Security has ramped up immigration arrests at airports, including at SFO.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration has ramped up immigration arrests at airports in recent months, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/iryna-gorb-sfo-arrest-released-22436690.php\">including at San Francisco International Airport\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to reporting by the San Francisco Chronicle, Customs and Border Protection has also been holding immigrants at SFO – in some cases, for more than a week. Reporter Sara DiNatale joins us to explain how the airport has become a de facto detention center.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/sfo-immigration-detention-ice-22405344.php\">Under Trump, SFO is now a de facto immigration detention center (San Francisco Chronicle)\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Earlier this summer, plain clothes immigration officers were seen at San Francisco International Airport, pinning down a woman as she cried for help. Concerned travelers hovered nearby, recording the incident.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iryna Gorb: \u003c/strong>No, they’re fucking ICE! I’m from Ukraine!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The woman would be later identified as 38-year-old Iryna Gorb, a Ukrainian photographer and barista who’s been living and working in the U.S. for the last 16 years. Here’s her friend, Andy Eblin, speaking to KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andy Eblin: \u003c/strong>There’s a reason that she’s got a lot of support, she is a good person that helped out a lot. That’s just kinda how she was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Gorb was detained by ICE for seven weeks. And it’s not just people being arrested by ICE at airports. According to reporting from the San Francisco Chronicle, SFO is also being used as a de facto detention center by Customs and Border Protection.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me like, yeah, a lot of people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we talk with the San Francisco Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale about how airports have become the new frontier in Trump’s immigration crackdown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>It’s not like this is happening constantly, but it is still happening more because it used to never happen. Historically ICE agents have not entered airports, domestic terminals, picking up people for visa overstays, especially people with visa overstay that have no criminal history. So we have seen this happen at our airport in San Francisco, it picked up over the summer and around that same time that we were noticing it locally, the New York Times tracked that it was happening regularly or at least semi-regularly at 15 major airports across the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I mean, this is not something that we’ve seen before, like these kinds of immigration enforcement actions happening at airports. I mean is this part of a broader strategy by the Trump administration to target immigrants at airports specifically?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So it’s not like the Trump administration or ICE has come out directly and said, like, this is our strategical avenue we’re taking, but the impression that a lot of immigration attorneys have and folks who have been in the detention centers recently have told me, like, yeah, a lot people I’m in here with are people who were picked up at the airport. The reason we think that is likely what’s happening is because we do know that there are current court orders that are preventing ICE from targeting court houses, which is the main enforcement efforts we saw last year. So the thought among immigration attorneys and other experts in immigration is that the shift to focusing on airports is a response to the fact that it is not as easy anymore to get people when they’re doing court hearings or check-ins with ICE because of these court orders. Trump has still made it clear that he has, you know, these large deportation goals. And so that is why people think airports have become a shift in that strategy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Can you kind of describe some of the kinds of immigration actions that are happening at airports like SFO?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the videos we’ve seen all follow a very similar formula. You typically see plain, closed ICE agents. It’s not particularly obvious that they’re federal immigration enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Iryna Gorb: \u003c/strong>I need more! No!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>They are coming to the airport with some kind of list or understanding of exactly who they’re targeting. TSA is likely sharing information. So they’re intersecting them either right when they’re getting off a flight or waiting to get on a flight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So we’re seeing these videos of people getting arrested at airports, but also your reporting has shown that people are actually being detained and held at San Francisco International Airport by Customs and Border Protection sometimes for days. Can you tell us a little bit more about what your reporting found?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, and there’s an important distinction here. Both practices are both part of Trump’s broader deportation crackdown, but the methods and framework that are being used are a little different. So when we’re talking about the people who are in domestic terminals that ICE agents are arresting in, those people are not the same people that we found being held in the airport. The people being held at the airport are flying internationally. Because when you’re flying internationally, you are essentially at the border asking for entry. And what we found and what our reporting found is that the people held at the airport are having this longer in-between step. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> So what exactly has changed? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> Traditionally, if you had been flying internationally you have a work permit visa or a green card and something about your background check pops in the Customs and Border Protection system. If it wasn’t like an active warrant, typically they would say, hey, something weird popped up on your your background check, we need to set up a follow up appointment to go through this, you would get like a temporary release. So you’re allowed to leave the airport and you know, you have to come back and check with the customs officers. Sometimes you would be able to bring your immigration attorney. And they’re basically holding your green card or your work permit as collateral. So like people always came back for these appointments. It wasn’t like people were running off. But now the follow-up appointment, which is called deferred inspection, is essentially dead. And so instead of a follow-up appointment, they’re just holding them at the airport until they can decide what to do with them. And typically the end decision, which sometimes can take up to a week or more, is to transfer them to ICE detention with an order to go before an immigration judge to decide whether or not they’re admissible into the country.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You’re saying some of these folks are being held at the airport for up to a week, potentially?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yes. So typically what happens because these are often really old arrests. And in a lot of cases, they are expunged from their state record. So they’re flying, not realizing that the federal system being used for the background check will still pull up a state expunges arrest. And then the agents are saying, Okay, well, we need to request your original court records. And until we have those court records to decide if you should be admitted or not. You just have to hold tight and the time that they’re waiting to get those records can span. If it is a Friday, the court is not going to send the certified records over the weekend. I’ve also had immigration attorneys tell me like, I have certified court records for the, like for this individual and I’m happy to bring them. And the agent said, no, we need them directly from either the arresting police agency or the court. Even if that was the case in the before times, it didn’t automatically mean you needed to be detained while you were awaiting that hearing. But now under Trump’s current executive orders, he’s made it very clear if there is a question about your admissibility and questions about your criminal history, you absolutely need to remain detained. They still have in there, it’s still linked on their website, you can read it, that people should not be held for more than 72 hours. And when we looked at the federal data which encompassed all the airports, we found that Customs and Border Protection has detained more than 400 people at international airports for longer than 72-hours since January and through July. And then of that 400 people, 146 were people who had valid green cards, so they were lawful permanent residents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And where exactly in the airport are they being held?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> It’s between A and G and like the part that connects both terminals that you like walk between. It’s all behind like the area you can’t get to unless like a customs agent is like walking with you. So this particular room is like kind of deep into the innards of the airport. There’s no windows. I have not been inside of it. They will not let me in. But it’s been described to me as just like a very, it looks like a basic like waiting room. Not somewhere you wanna sleep for days. There’s no beds. If you’ve ever been through customs and you get pulled for a secondary interview, you’re not allowed to have your phone. And that is the same with when you’re in being held in one of these rooms. You don’t have a phone or anything. So at SFO we know of 25 people who were held there for more than 72 hours from January through July and then 19 of those 25 people were transferred to ICE custody.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with The Chronicle’s Sara DiNatale right after this. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting our work by becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> And like you said, this detainment area is really out of sight, and we haven’t known a lot about what is actually happening there, but you actually talked with a 67-year-old man who was held there. Tell me about him and his story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>During this reporting process, I met a 67 year old man who was held at SFO for eight days starting in March. He agreed to talk to us without publishing his name because he doesn’t want any more attention to be put on his legal status. He is a green card holder. He has been a lawful permanent resident here for decades and he’s lived here legally for about 50 years. So he lives in Fresno. He was flying back from a trip to Mexico. And when he lands in Fresno, he is sitting on the plane and federal agents board and call his name. And they take him into custody right then and there. They cuffed his wrists and his feet, and they put him into a van, and they drove him to SFO. He was very confused about like what he was being arrested for on his way there actually in the van. He’s already starting to panic, especially because of his medical conditions. So he has diabetes and it was the end of his trip. So he didn’t have any more insulin on him because he was expecting to go home. Customs agents put him in this room. He is allowed one phone call to contact his son specifically just to ask for his medications. His son has to drive then from Fresno to SFO to deliver the medications. He also has no way to test his blood sugar. And it isn’t until a paramedic from the airport comes in to check him. That it becomes clear that he is having an episode. His blood sugar is way out of a normal range, he clearly needs insulin, and they do give him his insulin from his son finally, and he’s able to use it. He’s there for eight days. So through that eight days, he only had his blood sugar checked one time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>How did he describe the conditions inside SFO while he was being detained?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>He described the whole experience as psychological torture. You know, he didn’t have a change of clothes. So they do take him to, they escort him to a shower every three days, but then he’s changing back into his dirty clothes after. You know he doesn’t have bed. So he’s described sleeping upright for the entire time. And you know, he was only snatching a couple hours of sleep in between, you know like it’s difficult to sleep upright. And in addition, the lights were always on. The diabetes wasn’t the only medical issue he had. He had some other medications he was required to take, and I didn’t even mention he’s also mostly blind. He doesn’t describe there being a formal medical screening, which is something you would expect and is required of any holding facility.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What do we know about why he was detained by Customs and Border Protection?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so he wasn’t given a lot of clarity while it was happening to him. But he had an old 20 year old like run in with law enforcement that they essentially were looking into. I had one attorney I spoke with about just like this process describing it like a fishing expedition, like they are looking for something that they can argue makes you inadmissible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So he was held at SFO for eight days, you said Sara. Where is he now?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So, after his eight days, he was transferred to California City, which is the state’s largest detention center. Once he gets to California City, it takes a minute for him to be able to get connected with legal representation, but he eventually does. And they’re able to sort of untangle this old arrest and, you know, go before the court, make sure it’s clear that it’s a misdemeanor charge. And after five months, he does eventually get out. So he’s out, he has his green card still intact, and he’s just kind of recovering from this whole experience, which of course was very traumatic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, Sara, you’re describing, I mean in his words, psychological torture, people being held for days without really understanding why, not having access to legal representation. I mean is this legal? I mean can Customs and Border Protection just do this at airports here in the United States?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So when someone is coming, re-entering the country, court history and case law history, time and time again says the government has its peak authority at that moment, because it is a matter of national security. And that gives them a lot of latitude to do these things within a legal framework. That’s not to say that like everything they’re doing is legal and won’t face legal challenges. We have seen attorneys challenge these spaces and, you know, saying, hey, you need to at least make sure they meet, like, the minimum requirement for what makes a facility safe.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And is Customs and Border Protection still keeping people in conditions like this within SFO?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>So since the 67-year-old’s detainment, Customs and Border Protections has started using a different room to house people and that room has padded benches where people can actually lay down. So that’s an improvement, at least slightly in the conditions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what does the airport say? Like, do they have any jurisdiction over how customs operate?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>The airport itself has no control over what customs does with its space. So SFO cannot tell customs, hey, we don’t like this and you need to stop. Like because the airport is a border, customs has to have a space to operate and the airport has to provide that space. And once they hand over that space to them, they really can’t control what they do in it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And how has the Trump administration responded to this story?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>They did not respond to a long list of questions I sent them. I asked customs directly like, hey, I see in your guidelines that you have the 72-hour hold policy. Is that no longer a policy? And that was one of the specific questions they did not answer. I reached out to Congressman Kevin Mullin. He wound up using his congressional authority to demand inspection of the facility. Congressman Mullin was able to ask them some direct questions during his visit. According to him, they told him like, yes, this is a distinct policy shift under Trump. We would have given these people follow-up appointments before and now we keep them here. You know, they said sometimes because of waiting on court records and weekends. Uh, sometimes people are here longer than three days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, it seems just like it’s safe to say that airports have sort of become this new frontier in Trump’s immigration crackdown, I’m curious what immigrant attorneys and advocates are advising people to do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale: \u003c/strong>Yeah, I mean, there’s definitely the advice out there to just not travel, and I understand why people are heeding that advice. I would say if you are someone with a green card or another visa, you need to be really aware of exactly what your status is. So if you’re a green-card holder who has had a past brushing with law enforcement, you need to really sure that if you think your charges are vacated that they actually are before you travel internationally. And then for those who have visa overstays, the risk is that you will be targeted even if you don’t have any criminal history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Sara, thank you so much for sharing your reporting with us. I appreciate it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sara DiNatale:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> That was Sara DiNatale, a politics reporter for the San Francisco Chronicle. We’ll leave you a link to Sara’s reporting on this in our show notes. Thanks as well to KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti for some of the tape that you heard at the top of this episode. This episode was cut down and edited by producer Gabriela Glueck. It was produced and scored by me. Our senior editor is Alan Montecillo, music courtesy of AudioNetwork. If you wanna reach us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebayatkqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening to The Bay. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s AI boom is making the rental market more competitive than ever. Prospective tenants face intense pressure to stand out, leaving them susceptible to substandard living conditions or outright scams. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6264762819\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Part 1: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099253/as-ai-booms-daniel-lurie-declares-rent-emergency-in-san-francisco\">As AI Booms, Daniel Lurie Declares ‘Rent Emergency’ in San Francisco \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095536/after-the-18000-scam-how-can-bay-area-renters-protect-themselves\">After the $18,000 Scam, How Can Bay Area Renters Protect Themselves? | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Beyond Deng is packing up the Mission District apartment he’d been living in for the last few years. He has yet to find his next landing spot, but he’s got a big deadline looming over him. On Friday, he’ll have to be out of this apartment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>I wake up every single morning in my bed that’s now on the floor because we did it to sell our bed frame. And I think I’m just, damn, where am I going to be next week?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Earlier this summer, Deng’s landlord announced that they were selling the apartment building, throwing Deng and everyone else in the building into San Francisco’s crazy rental market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>So the last month and a half, we’ve been through this whole tedious, arduous journey on learning more about how we can project ourselves as tenants to now try to face this brutal landscape of the rental market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The AI boom has injected even more money into an already competitive rental market. So renters like Deng are now facing a desperate situation. Some are willing to pay extra, others are accepting substandard living conditions, and some are even falling for scams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t, in these circumstances. It’s making renters more vulnerable. This is a landlord’s market right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 1: \u003c/strong>What makes San Francisco special is being threatened right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daniel Lurie:\u003c/strong> When San Franciscans sit down at the kitchen table at night, many are asking another question. Can I still afford to live here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 2: \u003c/strong>The listings are pretty sparse to begin with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 3: \u003c/strong>I really hope we’re not being priced out of our move to the city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 4: \u003c/strong>It was so competitive that we’re moving to the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, in part two of the Bay’s series on San Francisco’s AI-fueled rental crisis, KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí tells us about how far some renters are willing to go to stay in San Francisco. I wonder if you can just tell me about like the range of crazy things that you’re hearing renters settle for in this rental market right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t. It’s not a new thing that you find someone in San Francisco or the Bay Area who has four, five, six roommates. But things start getting a little strange when you start hearing folks having to visit places with no kitchen, no bathroom, no sunlight. On Reddit, one user shared that he went to visit a spot. He walked around the room and then he’s like, where am I supposed to go use the restroom? And the landlord was like, oh, well, there’s a gym down the street. You should get a membership.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh my god. San Francisco has always been a very expensive place to live, a difficult place to rent in, and we talked in our last episode of The Bay about how this is just a unique moment in the city because of just the sheer wealth that is being injected into the city with the AI boom, but how is this competition and this pressure in the rental market right now changing renters’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We know that in San Francisco, there’s always been a market for living spaces that offer the minimum. But now we’re seeing people who are, you know, have full-time jobs, who are professionals, who let’s say would be in most other places in the country in very comfortable circumstances, having to then also compete for the same exact spaces. As a renter, you don’t have any guarantee that a landlord’s even going to look at message right on Zillow or Craigslist, whatever. One way to stand out is to offer more. You know, if the listing was, hey, this is for 4,000, you’re gonna have some people emailing the landlord being, hey, I’m willing to pay 5,000. If I set my homie up in a closet, they might say, oh, this good, man, I’ll settle here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>People feel desperate and sometimes just think any four walls and ceiling and a floor is worth it and they’ll put up with a lot of problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>As part of my reporting, I spoke to Ora Prochovnick. She is the Director of Litigation at the San Francisco Eviction Defense Collaborative. This is a renter’s rights group. She’s seen how in this tight market, people are making desperate choices to find a home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>The escalating anxiety around, if you find a place that’s at all desirable and within your ballpark about what you can afford, you know that in one afternoon, at least 20 other tenants are gonna be putting in their applications to compete with yours.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, people are desperate. People are desperate to stay here and find a way to make it work here in San Francisco. And so, I mean it sounds like people are kind of not just going through crazy lengths in order to stay there, but are also more vulnerable, as you say. And another part of your reporting too is that folks have been more susceptible to scams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>When competition is this intense, this is both anecdotal and this is something that I’ve seen again and again, especially on Craigslist, are scams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to see the listing because it was a two bed, one and a half bath. And that was exactly what my roommate and I were looking for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>I spoke to Alvin Tran who lives in San Francisco and he got a 10% rent increase. You know, with his bestie, he starts looking for a new spot and they’re looking everywhere and they find a spot on Craigslist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>Photos and the description, the place looks huge. There’s a lot of sunlight and it was in an ideal location. It was within our top three neighborhoods that we were looking for and it within our budget.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He emails the contact on Craigslist. The person on Craiglist who put up the listing says, fantastic, why don’t you come to the open house?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>So when I arrived at the open house, I saw that there were around six or seven other parties there and people have already mentioned that they have already applied online on Zillow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He sees the competition and he’s like, okay, obviously, you know, he’s proactive as soon as they get home, let me email the person I’ve been talking to on Craigslist, makes his interest very clear. He says, hey, I’m ready to put money down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was feeling a little bit pressured on how do I make myself stand out? How do I be able to kind of secure this apartment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He and his roomie were asked to put down $18,000 together. It was $6,000 for the first month of rent, another $6000 for last month of the rent, and an additional $6k for a deposit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to finally get confirmation that we were approved and that lease included a signed signature. So I assumed that everything went well and this is the end.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Of a journey. And it turns out that the person he sent the money to on Craigslist was not the landlord. What this scammer had done was, you know, he had seen other listings on Zillow and other places and created a fake one on Craigslist and sent Alvin to the open house that the real landlord was doing. So he intercepted what would otherwise been a regular normal interaction between Alvin and the real landlord.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I tried texting the number that I had. I tried calling and emailing. I even tried knocking on the door, but never got any response.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The person he sent the money to just disappeared, blocked Alvin, you know, stop taking his calls, stop responding his emails, but obviously he was able to like keep the money, right? Because it was done through a bank wire, bank transfer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was just shocked and floored that it turned out to be a scam. And then that sadness turned into frustration and then devastation because I then now realized that I have wired a big chunk of money to the wrong person and to a scammer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So Alvin lost $18,000 through this scam. And I think maybe some people might hear this, Carlos, and have very little empathy for Alvin, because, I mean, Craigslist scams are not new, but also $18000 is a lot of money. I mean what stands out to you about his situation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. Alvin told me, he’s like, what was his blind spot? And what he shared was like, if he had just, maybe at the open house, talked with the landlord and was like hey, wanna confirm? Is this your email or is this your phone number? This wouldn’t have happened. But his mind was elsewhere. His mind, as he told me was to get this place soon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I know that in my case, when I was there in person, I had already been texting and emailing who I thought was the property owner. So I didn’t think to confirm or ask for his contact information in person. But I think had I just done that and gone the extra mile to verify this whole scam would have fallen apart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The incentive for scammers to get involved in the Bay Area rental market is huge. They’re hearing that people in San Francisco are willing to put down 18,000, 20,000 25,000 right? You know, with deposit, everything. Scammers are gonna be so like, they love that. They’re like, what, I can just do this and I get this huge payload. So that’s scary. And then the second thing is that, point out that if folks who are better off are getting this amount of pressure, are getting screwed over by this rental market, That is not good news for everyone else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting the work we do by becoming a KQED Sustaining Member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I wanna transition Carlos into what this means for people who are in the rental market right now and how to go about navigating this what feels like an impossible situation. So are your only options basically to pay 4,000 for a one bedroom, accept a bad living situation or get scammed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>That’s something really important to have in mind right now, that no matter how desperate you have, the state of California guarantees you basic rights as tenants. Any place that you’re paying for, you, ECG, my landlord in this situation, are legally required to provide these things to me as your tenants. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> What are those things? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí:\u003c/strong> Right, so these are some things that sound incredibly basic, but for example, a sink, a working heating system, a toilet. And as of this year, California also updated the set of rules to include a fridge and a stove. So if I’m paying rent for an apartment for a room, you need to guarantee that that I have access to a fridge and a stove. Something super super important that I think it seems like a you know for some people I mentioned to you know they even laugh when I say this but sunlight, natural sunlight you need access to natural sunlight. And the fact that this is in California’s legal code represents decades and decades of tenant activism. You know, that could be for a later story, but there’s a huge significance to mental health to just basic wellbeing, knowing that you wake up and if you want, you can raise the curtains or you can just open the window and have access to fresh air and sunlight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So landlords owe you basic things as a tenant, but what about how to avoid scams like Alvin’s situation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>There’s a few small things that you can do to just kind of immediately spot a scam. And in Alvin’s case, the $18,000 that he was asked for, that should have been the first red flag. And Ora had a lot to say about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>California limits the amount of money that landlords are allowed to charge at the start of a tenancy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Landlords, especially, you know, at the big level where they own multiple properties, they can’t charge you more than one month of rent and then a deposit. And in Alvin’s case, it was $6,000 for first month of rental, $6000 for last month of rent, and then $6K for an additional deposit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if they ask you for any more than that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Red flag because it’s well one it’s illegal so it’s either you have a landlord that doesn’t read the law which is okay that’s already a problem or two a scammer that doesn’ know anything about California rental law and something that everyone I spoke to told me is avoid a wire transfer which is unfortunately what Alvin you know ended up doing he sent the $18,000 via wire transfer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>It’s never a good idea to do, unfortunately, what was done in this case. Don’t wire money, don’t use crypto, don’t us those digital apps that we’ve all come to love like Venmo and Zelle because you’re not protected when you use those tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Once you send that money out, there’s no way for you to get it back, versus if I sign you a check, or even if I pay you through my credit card, I still have a chance to be able to cancel that and get that money back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, one thing I’m struggling with here, Carlos, is the fact that I think you could be as aware of your rights as a tenant as possible. You could be read up on California state law, but it sounds like there are enough renters in the market right now who are willing to settle for less. I mean what advice would you give to people right now on how to navigate San Francisco’s rental market?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We’ve been in a landlord’s market before. There’s a lot of circumstances, right, out of our control where the AI boom goes next. But we have to also remember that individual actions add up to a collective result. You know, like we normalize landlords charging $4,000, $5,000. We’re putting ourselves in a position where we as tenants collectively will have less power. You gotta make these rights worth it somehow, right? Like you gotta fight for them if they’re not, you know, rights are only there if you fight for them, if you stand up for them, if you use them, if you work them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Carlos, thank you so much for sharing your reporting. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Thank you ECG.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí, a community reporter for KQED. By the way, this episode is the first in a series of stories we’re doing here on the Bay about how AI is affecting the Bay Area’s rental crisis. We’ll leave a link to the first episode in our show notes. This episode was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Gabriela Glueck is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. Music courtesy of Audio Network. If you wanna get in touch with us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebayatkqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>Part 1: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099253/as-ai-booms-daniel-lurie-declares-rent-emergency-in-san-francisco\">As AI Booms, Daniel Lurie Declares ‘Rent Emergency’ in San Francisco \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Beyond Deng is packing up the Mission District apartment he’d been living in for the last few years. He has yet to find his next landing spot, but he’s got a big deadline looming over him. On Friday, he’ll have to be out of this apartment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Beyond Deng is packing up the Mission District apartment he’d been living in for the last few years. He has yet to find his next landing spot, but he’s got a big deadline looming over him. On Friday, he’ll have to be out of this apartment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>I wake up every single morning in my bed that’s now on the floor because we did it to sell our bed frame. And I think I’m just, damn, where am I going to be next week?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>I wake up every single morning in my bed that’s now on the floor because we did it to sell our bed frame. And I think I’m just, damn, where am I going to be next week?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Earlier this summer, Deng’s landlord announced that they were selling the apartment building, throwing Deng and everyone else in the building into San Francisco’s crazy rental market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Earlier this summer, Deng’s landlord announced that they were selling the apartment building, throwing Deng and everyone else in the building into San Francisco’s crazy rental market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>So the last month and a half, we’ve been through this whole tedious, arduous journey on learning more about how we can project ourselves as tenants to now try to face this brutal landscape of the rental market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>So the last month and a half, we’ve been through this whole tedious, arduous journey on learning more about how we can project ourselves as tenants to now try to face this brutal landscape of the rental market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The AI boom has injected even more money into an already competitive rental market. So renters like Deng are now facing a desperate situation. Some are willing to pay extra, others are accepting substandard living conditions, and some are even falling for scams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The AI boom has injected even more money into an already competitive rental market. So renters like Deng are now facing a desperate situation. Some are willing to pay extra, others are accepting substandard living conditions, and some are even falling for scams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t, in these circumstances. It’s making renters more vulnerable. This is a landlord’s market right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t, in these circumstances. It’s making renters more vulnerable. This is a landlord’s market right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 1: \u003c/strong>What makes San Francisco special is being threatened right now. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daniel Lurie:\u003c/strong> When San Franciscans sit down at the kitchen table at night, many are asking another question. Can I still afford to live here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daniel Lurie:\u003c/strong> When San Franciscans sit down at the kitchen table at night, many are asking another question. Can I still afford to live here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 2: \u003c/strong>The listings are pretty sparse to begin with.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 3: \u003c/strong>I really hope we’re not being priced out of our move to the city.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, in part two of the Bay’s series on San Francisco’s AI-fueled rental crisis, KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí tells us about how far some renters are willing to go to stay in San Francisco. I wonder if you can just tell me about like the range of crazy things that you’re hearing renters settle for in this rental market right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, in part two of the Bay’s series on San Francisco’s AI-fueled rental crisis, KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí tells us about how far some renters are willing to go to stay in San Francisco. I wonder if you can just tell me about like the range of crazy things that you’re hearing renters settle for in this rental market right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t. It’s not a new thing that you find someone in San Francisco or the Bay Area who has four, five, six roommates. But things start getting a little strange when you start hearing folks having to visit places with no kitchen, no bathroom, no sunlight. On Reddit, one user shared that he went to visit a spot. He walked around the room and then he’s like, where am I supposed to go use the restroom? And the landlord was like, oh, well, there’s a gym down the street. You should get a membership.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t. It’s not a new thing that you find someone in San Francisco or the Bay Area who has four, five, six roommates. But things start getting a little strange when you start hearing folks having to visit places with no kitchen, no bathroom, no sunlight. On Reddit, one user shared that he went to visit a spot. He walked around the room and then he’s like, where am I supposed to go use the restroom? And the landlord was like, oh, well, there’s a gym down the street. You should get a membership.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh my god. San Francisco has always been a very expensive place to live, a difficult place to rent in, and we talked in our last episode of The Bay about how this is just a unique moment in the city because of just the sheer wealth that is being injected into the city with the AI boom, but how is this competition and this pressure in the rental market right now changing renters’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh my god. San Francisco has always been a very expensive place to live, a difficult place to rent in, and we talked in our last episode of The Bay about how this is just a unique moment in the city because of just the sheer wealth that is being injected into the city with the AI boom, but how is this competition and this pressure in the rental market right now changing renters’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We know that in San Francisco, there’s always been a market for living spaces that offer the minimum. But now we’re seeing people who are, you know, have full-time jobs, who are professionals, who let’s say would be in most other places in the country in very comfortable circumstances, having to then also compete for the same exact spaces. As a renter, you don’t have any guarantee that a landlord’s even going to look at message right on Zillow or Craigslist, whatever. One way to stand out is to offer more. You know, if the listing was, hey, this is for 4,000, you’re gonna have some people emailing the landlord being, hey, I’m willing to pay 5,000. If I set my homie up in a closet, they might say, oh, this good, man, I’ll settle here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We know that in San Francisco, there’s always been a market for living spaces that offer the minimum. But now we’re seeing people who are, you know, have full-time jobs, who are professionals, who let’s say would be in most other places in the country in very comfortable circumstances, having to then also compete for the same exact spaces. As a renter, you don’t have any guarantee that a landlord’s even going to look at message right on Zillow or Craigslist, whatever. One way to stand out is to offer more. You know, if the listing was, hey, this is for 4,000, you’re gonna have some people emailing the landlord being, hey, I’m willing to pay 5,000. If I set my homie up in a closet, they might say, oh, this good, man, I’ll settle here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>People feel desperate and sometimes just think any four walls and ceiling and a floor is worth it and they’ll put up with a lot of problems.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>People feel desperate and sometimes just think any four walls and ceiling and a floor is worth it and they’ll put up with a lot of problems.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>As part of my reporting, I spoke to Ora Prochovnick. She is the Director of Litigation at the San Francisco Eviction Defense Collaborative. This is a renter’s rights group. She’s seen how in this tight market, people are making desperate choices to find a home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>As part of my reporting, I spoke to Ora Prochovnick. She is the Director of Litigation at the San Francisco Eviction Defense Collaborative. This is a renter’s rights group. She’s seen how in this tight market, people are making desperate choices to find a home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>The escalating anxiety around, if you find a place that’s at all desirable and within your ballpark about what you can afford, you know that in one afternoon, at least 20 other tenants are gonna be putting in their applications to compete with yours.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>The escalating anxiety around, if you find a place that’s at all desirable and within your ballpark about what you can afford, you know that in one afternoon, at least 20 other tenants are gonna be putting in their applications to compete with yours.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, people are desperate. People are desperate to stay here and find a way to make it work here in San Francisco. And so, I mean it sounds like people are kind of not just going through crazy lengths in order to stay there, but are also more vulnerable, as you say. And another part of your reporting too is that folks have been more susceptible to scams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, people are desperate. People are desperate to stay here and find a way to make it work here in San Francisco. And so, I mean it sounds like people are kind of not just going through crazy lengths in order to stay there, but are also more vulnerable, as you say. And another part of your reporting too is that folks have been more susceptible to scams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>When competition is this intense, this is both anecdotal and this is something that I’ve seen again and again, especially on Craigslist, are scams.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>When competition is this intense, this is both anecdotal and this is something that I’ve seen again and again, especially on Craigslist, are scams.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to see the listing because it was a two bed, one and a half bath. And that was exactly what my roommate and I were looking for.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to see the listing because it was a two bed, one and a half bath. And that was exactly what my roommate and I were looking for.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>I spoke to Alvin Tran who lives in San Francisco and he got a 10% rent increase. You know, with his bestie, he starts looking for a new spot and they’re looking everywhere and they find a spot on Craigslist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>I spoke to Alvin Tran who lives in San Francisco and he got a 10% rent increase. You know, with his bestie, he starts looking for a new spot and they’re looking everywhere and they find a spot on Craigslist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>Photos and the description, the place looks huge. There’s a lot of sunlight and it was in an ideal location. It was within our top three neighborhoods that we were looking for and it within our budget.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>Photos and the description, the place looks huge. There’s a lot of sunlight and it was in an ideal location. It was within our top three neighborhoods that we were looking for and it within our budget.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He emails the contact on Craigslist. The person on Craiglist who put up the listing says, fantastic, why don’t you come to the open house?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He emails the contact on Craigslist. The person on Craiglist who put up the listing says, fantastic, why don’t you come to the open house?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>So when I arrived at the open house, I saw that there were around six or seven other parties there and people have already mentioned that they have already applied online on Zillow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>So when I arrived at the open house, I saw that there were around six or seven other parties there and people have already mentioned that they have already applied online on Zillow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He sees the competition and he’s like, okay, obviously, you know, he’s proactive as soon as they get home, let me email the person I’ve been talking to on Craigslist, makes his interest very clear. He says, hey, I’m ready to put money down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was feeling a little bit pressured on how do I make myself stand out? How do I be able to kind of secure this apartment?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He and his roomie were asked to put down $18,000 together. It was $6,000 for the first month of rent, another $6000 for last month of the rent, and an additional $6k for a deposit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He and his roomie were asked to put down $18,000 together. It was $6,000 for the first month of rent, another $6000 for last month of the rent, and an additional $6k for a deposit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to finally get confirmation that we were approved and that lease included a signed signature. So I assumed that everything went well and this is the end.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to finally get confirmation that we were approved and that lease included a signed signature. So I assumed that everything went well and this is the end.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Of a journey. And it turns out that the person he sent the money to on Craigslist was not the landlord. What this scammer had done was, you know, he had seen other listings on Zillow and other places and created a fake one on Craigslist and sent Alvin to the open house that the real landlord was doing. So he intercepted what would otherwise been a regular normal interaction between Alvin and the real landlord.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I tried texting the number that I had. I tried calling and emailing. I even tried knocking on the door, but never got any response.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I tried texting the number that I had. I tried calling and emailing. I even tried knocking on the door, but never got any response.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The person he sent the money to just disappeared, blocked Alvin, you know, stop taking his calls, stop responding his emails, but obviously he was able to like keep the money, right? Because it was done through a bank wire, bank transfer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was just shocked and floored that it turned out to be a scam. And then that sadness turned into frustration and then devastation because I then now realized that I have wired a big chunk of money to the wrong person and to a scammer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So Alvin lost $18,000 through this scam. And I think maybe some people might hear this, Carlos, and have very little empathy for Alvin, because, I mean, Craigslist scams are not new, but also $18000 is a lot of money. I mean what stands out to you about his situation?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So Alvin lost $18,000 through this scam. And I think maybe some people might hear this, Carlos, and have very little empathy for Alvin, because, I mean, Craigslist scams are not new, but also $18000 is a lot of money. I mean what stands out to you about his situation?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. Alvin told me, he’s like, what was his blind spot? And what he shared was like, if he had just, maybe at the open house, talked with the landlord and was like hey, wanna confirm? Is this your email or is this your phone number? This wouldn’t have happened. But his mind was elsewhere. His mind, as he told me was to get this place soon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. Alvin told me, he’s like, what was his blind spot? And what he shared was like, if he had just, maybe at the open house, talked with the landlord and was like hey, wanna confirm? Is this your email or is this your phone number? This wouldn’t have happened. But his mind was elsewhere. His mind, as he told me was to get this place soon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I know that in my case, when I was there in person, I had already been texting and emailing who I thought was the property owner. So I didn’t think to confirm or ask for his contact information in person. But I think had I just done that and gone the extra mile to verify this whole scam would have fallen apart.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I know that in my case, when I was there in person, I had already been texting and emailing who I thought was the property owner. So I didn’t think to confirm or ask for his contact information in person. But I think had I just done that and gone the extra mile to verify this whole scam would have fallen apart.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The incentive for scammers to get involved in the Bay Area rental market is huge. They’re hearing that people in San Francisco are willing to put down 18,000, 20,000 25,000 right? You know, with deposit, everything. Scammers are gonna be so like, they love that. They’re like, what, I can just do this and I get this huge payload. So that’s scary. And then the second thing is that, point out that if folks who are better off are getting this amount of pressure, are getting screwed over by this rental market, That is not good news for everyone else.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The incentive for scammers to get involved in the Bay Area rental market is huge. They’re hearing that people in San Francisco are willing to put down 18,000, 20,000 25,000 right? You know, with deposit, everything. Scammers are gonna be so like, they love that. They’re like, what, I can just do this and I get this huge payload. So that’s scary. And then the second thing is that, point out that if folks who are better off are getting this amount of pressure, are getting screwed over by this rental market, That is not good news for everyone else.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting the work we do by becoming a KQED Sustaining Member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting the work we do by becoming a KQED Sustaining Member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I wanna transition Carlos into what this means for people who are in the rental market right now and how to go about navigating this what feels like an impossible situation. So are your only options basically to pay 4,000 for a one bedroom, accept a bad living situation or get scammed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>That’s something really important to have in mind right now, that no matter how desperate you have, the state of California guarantees you basic rights as tenants. Any place that you’re paying for, you, ECG, my landlord in this situation, are legally required to provide these things to me as your tenants. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>That’s something really important to have in mind right now, that no matter how desperate you have, the state of California guarantees you basic rights as tenants. Any place that you’re paying for, you, ECG, my landlord in this situation, are legally required to provide these things to me as your tenants. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí:\u003c/strong> Right, so these are some things that sound incredibly basic, but for example, a sink, a working heating system, a toilet. And as of this year, California also updated the set of rules to include a fridge and a stove. So if I’m paying rent for an apartment for a room, you need to guarantee that that I have access to a fridge and a stove. Something super super important that I think it seems like a you know for some people I mentioned to you know they even laugh when I say this but sunlight, natural sunlight you need access to natural sunlight. And the fact that this is in California’s legal code represents decades and decades of tenant activism. You know, that could be for a later story, but there’s a huge significance to mental health to just basic wellbeing, knowing that you wake up and if you want, you can raise the curtains or you can just open the window and have access to fresh air and sunlight.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí:\u003c/strong> Right, so these are some things that sound incredibly basic, but for example, a sink, a working heating system, a toilet. And as of this year, California also updated the set of rules to include a fridge and a stove. So if I’m paying rent for an apartment for a room, you need to guarantee that that I have access to a fridge and a stove. Something super super important that I think it seems like a you know for some people I mentioned to you know they even laugh when I say this but sunlight, natural sunlight you need access to natural sunlight. And the fact that this is in California’s legal code represents decades and decades of tenant activism. You know, that could be for a later story, but there’s a huge significance to mental health to just basic wellbeing, knowing that you wake up and if you want, you can raise the curtains or you can just open the window and have access to fresh air and sunlight.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So landlords owe you basic things as a tenant, but what about how to avoid scams like Alvin’s situation?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So landlords owe you basic things as a tenant, but what about how to avoid scams like Alvin’s situation?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>There’s a few small things that you can do to just kind of immediately spot a scam. And in Alvin’s case, the $18,000 that he was asked for, that should have been the first red flag. And Ora had a lot to say about that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>California limits the amount of money that landlords are allowed to charge at the start of a tenancy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>California limits the amount of money that landlords are allowed to charge at the start of a tenancy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Landlords, especially, you know, at the big level where they own multiple properties, they can’t charge you more than one month of rent and then a deposit. And in Alvin’s case, it was $6,000 for first month of rental, $6000 for last month of rent, and then $6K for an additional deposit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Landlords, especially, you know, at the big level where they own multiple properties, they can’t charge you more than one month of rent and then a deposit. And in Alvin’s case, it was $6,000 for first month of rental, $6000 for last month of rent, and then $6K for an additional deposit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if they ask you for any more than that?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Red flag because it’s well one it’s illegal so it’s either you have a landlord that doesn’t read the law which is okay that’s already a problem or two a scammer that doesn’ know anything about California rental law and something that everyone I spoke to told me is avoid a wire transfer which is unfortunately what Alvin you know ended up doing he sent the $18,000 via wire transfer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Red flag because it’s well one it’s illegal so it’s either you have a landlord that doesn’t read the law which is okay that’s already a problem or two a scammer that doesn’ know anything about California rental law and something that everyone I spoke to told me is avoid a wire transfer which is unfortunately what Alvin you know ended up doing he sent the $18,000 via wire transfer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>It’s never a good idea to do, unfortunately, what was done in this case. Don’t wire money, don’t use crypto, don’t us those digital apps that we’ve all come to love like Venmo and Zelle because you’re not protected when you use those tools.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>It’s never a good idea to do, unfortunately, what was done in this case. Don’t wire money, don’t use crypto, don’t us those digital apps that we’ve all come to love like Venmo and Zelle because you’re not protected when you use those tools.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Once you send that money out, there’s no way for you to get it back, versus if I sign you a check, or even if I pay you through my credit card, I still have a chance to be able to cancel that and get that money back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Once you send that money out, there’s no way for you to get it back, versus if I sign you a check, or even if I pay you through my credit card, I still have a chance to be able to cancel that and get that money back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, one thing I’m struggling with here, Carlos, is the fact that I think you could be as aware of your rights as a tenant as possible. You could be read up on California state law, but it sounds like there are enough renters in the market right now who are willing to settle for less. I mean what advice would you give to people right now on how to navigate San Francisco’s rental market?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, one thing I’m struggling with here, Carlos, is the fact that I think you could be as aware of your rights as a tenant as possible. You could be read up on California state law, but it sounds like there are enough renters in the market right now who are willing to settle for less. I mean what advice would you give to people right now on how to navigate San Francisco’s rental market?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We’ve been in a landlord’s market before. There’s a lot of circumstances, right, out of our control where the AI boom goes next. But we have to also remember that individual actions add up to a collective result. You know, like we normalize landlords charging $4,000, $5,000. We’re putting ourselves in a position where we as tenants collectively will have less power. You gotta make these rights worth it somehow, right? Like you gotta fight for them if they’re not, you know, rights are only there if you fight for them, if you stand up for them, if you use them, if you work them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Carlos, thank you so much for sharing your reporting. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Carlos, thank you so much for sharing your reporting. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Thank you ECG.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Thank you ECG.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí, a community reporter for KQED. By the way, this episode is the first in a series of stories we’re doing here on the Bay about how AI is affecting the Bay Area’s rental crisis. We’ll leave a link to the first episode in our show notes. This episode was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Gabriela Glueck is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. Music courtesy of Audio Network. If you wanna get in touch with us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebayatkqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n",
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Prospective tenants face intense pressure to stand out, leaving them susceptible to substandard living conditions or outright scams. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC6264762819\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>Part 1: \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12099253/as-ai-booms-daniel-lurie-declares-rent-emergency-in-san-francisco\">As AI Booms, Daniel Lurie Declares ‘Rent Emergency’ in San Francisco \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12095536/after-the-18000-scam-how-can-bay-area-renters-protect-themselves\">After the $18,000 Scam, How Can Bay Area Renters Protect Themselves? | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, and welcome to The Bay. Local news to keep you rooted. Beyond Deng is packing up the Mission District apartment he’d been living in for the last few years. He has yet to find his next landing spot, but he’s got a big deadline looming over him. On Friday, he’ll have to be out of this apartment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>I wake up every single morning in my bed that’s now on the floor because we did it to sell our bed frame. And I think I’m just, damn, where am I going to be next week?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Earlier this summer, Deng’s landlord announced that they were selling the apartment building, throwing Deng and everyone else in the building into San Francisco’s crazy rental market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Beyond Deng: \u003c/strong>So the last month and a half, we’ve been through this whole tedious, arduous journey on learning more about how we can project ourselves as tenants to now try to face this brutal landscape of the rental market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>The AI boom has injected even more money into an already competitive rental market. So renters like Deng are now facing a desperate situation. Some are willing to pay extra, others are accepting substandard living conditions, and some are even falling for scams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t, in these circumstances. It’s making renters more vulnerable. This is a landlord’s market right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 1: \u003c/strong>What makes San Francisco special is being threatened right now. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Daniel Lurie:\u003c/strong> When San Franciscans sit down at the kitchen table at night, many are asking another question. Can I still afford to live here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 2: \u003c/strong>The listings are pretty sparse to begin with.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 3: \u003c/strong>I really hope we’re not being priced out of our move to the city.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Speaker 4: \u003c/strong>It was so competitive that we’re moving to the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, in part two of the Bay’s series on San Francisco’s AI-fueled rental crisis, KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí tells us about how far some renters are willing to go to stay in San Francisco. I wonder if you can just tell me about like the range of crazy things that you’re hearing renters settle for in this rental market right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>People are accepting things that they otherwise wouldn’t. It’s not a new thing that you find someone in San Francisco or the Bay Area who has four, five, six roommates. But things start getting a little strange when you start hearing folks having to visit places with no kitchen, no bathroom, no sunlight. On Reddit, one user shared that he went to visit a spot. He walked around the room and then he’s like, where am I supposed to go use the restroom? And the landlord was like, oh, well, there’s a gym down the street. You should get a membership.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Oh my god. San Francisco has always been a very expensive place to live, a difficult place to rent in, and we talked in our last episode of The Bay about how this is just a unique moment in the city because of just the sheer wealth that is being injected into the city with the AI boom, but how is this competition and this pressure in the rental market right now changing renters’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We know that in San Francisco, there’s always been a market for living spaces that offer the minimum. But now we’re seeing people who are, you know, have full-time jobs, who are professionals, who let’s say would be in most other places in the country in very comfortable circumstances, having to then also compete for the same exact spaces. As a renter, you don’t have any guarantee that a landlord’s even going to look at message right on Zillow or Craigslist, whatever. One way to stand out is to offer more. You know, if the listing was, hey, this is for 4,000, you’re gonna have some people emailing the landlord being, hey, I’m willing to pay 5,000. If I set my homie up in a closet, they might say, oh, this good, man, I’ll settle here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>People feel desperate and sometimes just think any four walls and ceiling and a floor is worth it and they’ll put up with a lot of problems.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>As part of my reporting, I spoke to Ora Prochovnick. She is the Director of Litigation at the San Francisco Eviction Defense Collaborative. This is a renter’s rights group. She’s seen how in this tight market, people are making desperate choices to find a home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>The escalating anxiety around, if you find a place that’s at all desirable and within your ballpark about what you can afford, you know that in one afternoon, at least 20 other tenants are gonna be putting in their applications to compete with yours.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, people are desperate. People are desperate to stay here and find a way to make it work here in San Francisco. And so, I mean it sounds like people are kind of not just going through crazy lengths in order to stay there, but are also more vulnerable, as you say. And another part of your reporting too is that folks have been more susceptible to scams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>When competition is this intense, this is both anecdotal and this is something that I’ve seen again and again, especially on Craigslist, are scams.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to see the listing because it was a two bed, one and a half bath. And that was exactly what my roommate and I were looking for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>I spoke to Alvin Tran who lives in San Francisco and he got a 10% rent increase. You know, with his bestie, he starts looking for a new spot and they’re looking everywhere and they find a spot on Craigslist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>Photos and the description, the place looks huge. There’s a lot of sunlight and it was in an ideal location. It was within our top three neighborhoods that we were looking for and it within our budget.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He emails the contact on Craigslist. The person on Craiglist who put up the listing says, fantastic, why don’t you come to the open house?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>So when I arrived at the open house, I saw that there were around six or seven other parties there and people have already mentioned that they have already applied online on Zillow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He sees the competition and he’s like, okay, obviously, you know, he’s proactive as soon as they get home, let me email the person I’ve been talking to on Craigslist, makes his interest very clear. He says, hey, I’m ready to put money down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was feeling a little bit pressured on how do I make myself stand out? How do I be able to kind of secure this apartment?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>He and his roomie were asked to put down $18,000 together. It was $6,000 for the first month of rent, another $6000 for last month of the rent, and an additional $6k for a deposit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was super excited to finally get confirmation that we were approved and that lease included a signed signature. So I assumed that everything went well and this is the end.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Of a journey. And it turns out that the person he sent the money to on Craigslist was not the landlord. What this scammer had done was, you know, he had seen other listings on Zillow and other places and created a fake one on Craigslist and sent Alvin to the open house that the real landlord was doing. So he intercepted what would otherwise been a regular normal interaction between Alvin and the real landlord.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I tried texting the number that I had. I tried calling and emailing. I even tried knocking on the door, but never got any response.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The person he sent the money to just disappeared, blocked Alvin, you know, stop taking his calls, stop responding his emails, but obviously he was able to like keep the money, right? Because it was done through a bank wire, bank transfer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I was just shocked and floored that it turned out to be a scam. And then that sadness turned into frustration and then devastation because I then now realized that I have wired a big chunk of money to the wrong person and to a scammer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So Alvin lost $18,000 through this scam. And I think maybe some people might hear this, Carlos, and have very little empathy for Alvin, because, I mean, Craigslist scams are not new, but also $18000 is a lot of money. I mean what stands out to you about his situation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Yeah, yeah. Alvin told me, he’s like, what was his blind spot? And what he shared was like, if he had just, maybe at the open house, talked with the landlord and was like hey, wanna confirm? Is this your email or is this your phone number? This wouldn’t have happened. But his mind was elsewhere. His mind, as he told me was to get this place soon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alvin Tran: \u003c/strong>I know that in my case, when I was there in person, I had already been texting and emailing who I thought was the property owner. So I didn’t think to confirm or ask for his contact information in person. But I think had I just done that and gone the extra mile to verify this whole scam would have fallen apart.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>The incentive for scammers to get involved in the Bay Area rental market is huge. They’re hearing that people in San Francisco are willing to put down 18,000, 20,000 25,000 right? You know, with deposit, everything. Scammers are gonna be so like, they love that. They’re like, what, I can just do this and I get this huge payload. So that’s scary. And then the second thing is that, point out that if folks who are better off are getting this amount of pressure, are getting screwed over by this rental market, That is not good news for everyone else.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider supporting the work we do by becoming a KQED Sustaining Member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I wanna transition Carlos into what this means for people who are in the rental market right now and how to go about navigating this what feels like an impossible situation. So are your only options basically to pay 4,000 for a one bedroom, accept a bad living situation or get scammed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>That’s something really important to have in mind right now, that no matter how desperate you have, the state of California guarantees you basic rights as tenants. Any place that you’re paying for, you, ECG, my landlord in this situation, are legally required to provide these things to me as your tenants. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/strong> What are those things? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí:\u003c/strong> Right, so these are some things that sound incredibly basic, but for example, a sink, a working heating system, a toilet. And as of this year, California also updated the set of rules to include a fridge and a stove. So if I’m paying rent for an apartment for a room, you need to guarantee that that I have access to a fridge and a stove. Something super super important that I think it seems like a you know for some people I mentioned to you know they even laugh when I say this but sunlight, natural sunlight you need access to natural sunlight. And the fact that this is in California’s legal code represents decades and decades of tenant activism. You know, that could be for a later story, but there’s a huge significance to mental health to just basic wellbeing, knowing that you wake up and if you want, you can raise the curtains or you can just open the window and have access to fresh air and sunlight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So landlords owe you basic things as a tenant, but what about how to avoid scams like Alvin’s situation?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>There’s a few small things that you can do to just kind of immediately spot a scam. And in Alvin’s case, the $18,000 that he was asked for, that should have been the first red flag. And Ora had a lot to say about that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>California limits the amount of money that landlords are allowed to charge at the start of a tenancy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Landlords, especially, you know, at the big level where they own multiple properties, they can’t charge you more than one month of rent and then a deposit. And in Alvin’s case, it was $6,000 for first month of rental, $6000 for last month of rent, and then $6K for an additional deposit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So if they ask you for any more than that?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Red flag because it’s well one it’s illegal so it’s either you have a landlord that doesn’t read the law which is okay that’s already a problem or two a scammer that doesn’ know anything about California rental law and something that everyone I spoke to told me is avoid a wire transfer which is unfortunately what Alvin you know ended up doing he sent the $18,000 via wire transfer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ora Prochovnick: \u003c/strong>It’s never a good idea to do, unfortunately, what was done in this case. Don’t wire money, don’t use crypto, don’t us those digital apps that we’ve all come to love like Venmo and Zelle because you’re not protected when you use those tools.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Once you send that money out, there’s no way for you to get it back, versus if I sign you a check, or even if I pay you through my credit card, I still have a chance to be able to cancel that and get that money back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, one thing I’m struggling with here, Carlos, is the fact that I think you could be as aware of your rights as a tenant as possible. You could be read up on California state law, but it sounds like there are enough renters in the market right now who are willing to settle for less. I mean what advice would you give to people right now on how to navigate San Francisco’s rental market?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>We’ve been in a landlord’s market before. There’s a lot of circumstances, right, out of our control where the AI boom goes next. But we have to also remember that individual actions add up to a collective result. You know, like we normalize landlords charging $4,000, $5,000. We’re putting ourselves in a position where we as tenants collectively will have less power. You gotta make these rights worth it somehow, right? Like you gotta fight for them if they’re not, you know, rights are only there if you fight for them, if you stand up for them, if you use them, if you work them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Carlos, thank you so much for sharing your reporting. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí: \u003c/strong>Thank you ECG.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That was Carlos Cabrera-Lomelí, a community reporter for KQED. By the way, this episode is the first in a series of stories we’re doing here on the Bay about how AI is affecting the Bay Area’s rental crisis. We’ll leave a link to the first episode in our show notes. This episode was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Gabriela Glueck is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape. Music courtesy of Audio Network. If you wanna get in touch with us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebayatkqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Thanks so much for listening. Peace.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>In 2020, San Franciscans began reckoning with the city’s monuments — many of which honored violent figures and fraught histories. In the years since, the San Francisco Arts Commission has been reimagining what public memory could look like. Now, temporary monuments celebrating everyday people are popping up all around us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13991360/new-monuments-san-francisco-shaping-legacy-sfac\">In San Francisco, a Reckoning With Toppled Statues Gives Rise to New Monuments\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC2720065320\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is getting ready for a ‘Super El Niño’ this winter. This natural weather pattern, — made worse by human-caused climate change — could bring flooding, mudslides, power outages and road closures. KQED Climate reporter Ezra David Romero explains how we might feel the impact of El Niño in our day to day lives. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/12097546/el-nino-could-bring-a-wet-wild-winter-how-can-you-and-your-home-be-ready\">Guide: El Niño Could Bring a Wet, Wild Winter. How Can You — and Your Home — Be Ready?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8572061849\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Scientists have been warning about a super El Niño this year, which will bring wetter than normal weather to the Bay Area. But what is an El Niño?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s like the million-dollar question, right? I mean, this is a big scary thing that we see all these headlines about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino weather events have been happening for thousands of years. It’s when tropical winds shift in the Pacific, warming ocean water. And when the ocean warms, it could reshape weather systems, bringing stormy weather to California and disrupting marine life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Warm water, the ocean, affects how weather happens all around the whole world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Today, what this year’s El Niño will mean for the Bay and how to stay prepared.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, officials say that there’s a 69% chance this El Nino could exceed the strength of any El Nino dating back to 1950, that’s when records began.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra David Romero is a climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino’s are a natural climate phenomenon. They happen in the ocean, you know, this communication between land and sea. You know, studies indicate that human-caused climate change is creating a warmer, more moisture-related atmosphere, right, like up in the air. And that can, like, intensify the power and rainfall capacity of these modern El Nino events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So, we’re going to have a lot more warmer water along our coast, and broad strokes, how could that then impact us in the Bay Area? What kind of impacts may people feel in their everyday lives?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What this could look like is like your street flooding if you live near the bay. If you live in San Francisco, if you lived in a place where there’s like poor drainage, if there’s a big rainstorm, your street could flood. Water could come from underneath your house into your place. That could also mean like if you’re like on highway 101 and it’s so wet, a mudslide could come in front of you in front your car. Could mean if you are a fisher or a person banking on these crabs or the species to be there and they’re not because of the warm water, like you know, your livelihood at stake. It also could mean like downed trees and things like that in communities, you know, it could mean power outages, but the list goes on and on. So I think that’s why like everyone should prepare for the worst. Like if it means you have a go bag with water and batteries and extra flashlights and some canned food, you know, in your home, there’s just like so many impacts that could be happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And timeline-wise, when can we expect this El Nino to hit us here in the Bay Area the hardest?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Basically, this fall and winter, there are already effects in the ocean happening now down in Southern California. Like I talked to a scientist this week, he said the ocean water temperatures are already in the mid 70 degrees, ours are around mid 50s. So as we get deeper and deeper into fall and winter, that’s when we could see these effects of El Nino.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I want to talk about how this might affect us here in the Bay Area. I’m thinking about a place that you’ve reported on quite a bit, San Rafael, which is also a place in the bay area that has flooded a lot already without El Nino. And it’s also a place. That’s now bracing for what is to come, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Exactly. San Rafael is this community up in Marin County. There’s a creek that runs from San Francisco Bay called San Rafael Creek through the town. And that creek is kind of massive. It is built up on all the sides with homes and businesses. This is a place that flooded almost every year during king tides. King tides are one of the highest tides of the year that correlate with the moon. This past January, the King Tide happened that like with these back to back storms. And so the water was extra high and it flooded parts of neighborhoods and businesses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We flooded from the back wall all the way to the bathrooms to here and the karate school dojo went about three to four inches under water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I met a guy named Derek Bentley back in January. He runs a karate studio right next to a marina of this creek and his business flooded from the inside out and through the front door.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So the mats started filling with water and then they started kind of bubbling a little bit because all the foam in there started getting big and then we had another flood that happens underneath the mats.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He’s super nervous that what could happen this winter could be worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And like a lot of coastal cities, I mean, here in the Bay Area, I have to imagine a lot preparation is going on. So what is San Rafael doing to prepare?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I talked to Kate Hagemann about this, she’s the Climate Adaptation Resilience Planner with the City of San Rafael.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Our main options are just to do what we can to get people and critical equipment out of harm’s way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re working with the community. They want to create messaging so when flooding happens, they can put messaging out like, no, avoid this area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We have to focus, especially as bad weather approaches, on just making sure people have a plan and somewhere to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re also working with groups like Caltrans and Highway Patrol and things like that because there are Highway 101 cuts through the town, that’s an area that could flood too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We met with owners and operators of critical facilities like PG&E, water, sewer, fire, these areas are at risk. If this happens, then what?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>There are so many cities on our coast here in the Bay Area, I mean what else are cities doing to prepare and how can you prepare for something like this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I think cities across the Bay Area are thinking about this, you know, all at the same time. Places like Pacifica are thinking of the wave action that erodes the hills there, and what they do and how they message that. Places, like San Francisco, right, where we have this, like, huge downtown and this seawall that protects it that already floods in certain spots, they’re thinking about how they stop traffic, how they message to people. Do they put in pumps that can pump that water out? Because some of this water could go into like critical infrastructure, like the Muni tunnel. Cities like Alameda, you know, that are an island, they have water from all sides. And during these events where you have flooding from the side and from below, because it’s so saturated, they’re thinking about like similar things, like where they pump the water and also what kind of messaging, but also like what can homeowners do if like your basement’s full of water and you pump it out. So I think they’re encouraging people to come up with plans as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Ezra David Romero right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Listener donations are the lifeblood of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. I mean, Ezra, it sounds like there’s this short-term preparation that’s sort of happening, but what about long-term?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>The Bay Area is thinking about this. You know, there was a bill passed a few years ago that mandates every coastal city and Bay Area city and county come up with like a sea level rise plan. And so all these cities around the Bay are like in some status of this. Places like Alameda, San Rafael, Suisin City, Oakland. The city of San Francisco has come up with a plan with the Army Corps of Engineers to re-engineer the entire seawall. And that’s a very active seawall within that seawall, it’s like BART infrastructure, Muni, you know, electrical lines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, in some of these areas, we have very important assets for the functioning of the cities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> I talked with Brad Benson about this. He’s the Waterfront Resilience Program Director for the Port of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>One of the goals of the Downtown Coastal Resilience Project is to defend that area from future flooding. So we don’t have a super storm sandy kind of event that floods our underground uni system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They have a plan to do that, but they have to convince Congress to fund a big portion of it, because it’s going to cost billions of dollars to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And I want to go back, as read to Derek Bentley, who owns the karate studio in San Rafael. How is he preparing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He has this like, elaborate plan, sort of like, if the floods happen, he wants to get down there pretty immediately and like, put all these expensive mats he just bought like, up high so they don’t flood. He’s also working with the neighboring businesses, it’s like a long strip mo-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>If I stop the water, you know it’s going to the next business. So they have to be ready. And you know, it’ll go to the next business\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They want to have this plan together, you know, so they can all make it in San Rafael. Because I mean, they’re like literally across the street, like from his front window, you can see boats rise up and down in this marina. And so like the threat is like right in front of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>But my fear is just, we’re now getting to the point where you won’t be able to do anything. Like I can put tarps down, I can wrap them, I can send bags down, but my fear is that we’ll lose this place because it’ll just be too much water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What about us as individual people? What might we do to prepare for this El Nino?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Yeah, I talked to a lot of experts about this and they, you know, basically say like preparation is like the number one thing you can do. Like have a list of things that you need to take with you on your refrigerator. Think about this now, like meet your neighbors if you don’t know them, get their phone numbers, especially live in an area that floods, you know, clear drains. If you have a roof, make sure it’s not leaking. You know, if you have like a creek or like a something like that in your backyard, make sure you clear it out. So like if there is a big rainstorm, you know, it doesn’t get clogged in your home floods. It’s like. Talk to your neighbors, make a plan, and do that now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Why is it going to be important to see how this El Nino affects the Bay Area this winter?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>Well, I think what happens this year is sort of like this like window into the future. What could happen with sea level rise? Like state scientists project that we could have like one to three and a half feet by mid-century and even way more by the end of the century. What we’re going to see, depending on what happens to see or is sort like what could be like everyday flooding or everyday high tide levels in the next 20 to 70 years. Like I think this is an opportune moment to like witness our responses and what, what, what we do with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra thank you so much as always.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>That was Ezra David Romero, a climate reporter for KQED. I’m gonna leave you a link to Ezra’s guide on how to prepare for El Nino in our show notes. This conversation with Ezra was cut down and edited by Pauline Bartolone. Gabriela Glueck is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape, music courtesy of Audio Network and APM. If you want to get in touch with us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebay.kqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevvara. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Scientists have been warning about a super El Niño this year, which will bring wetter than normal weather to the Bay Area. But what is an El Niño?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Scientists have been warning about a super El Niño this year, which will bring wetter than normal weather to the Bay Area. But what is an El Niño?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s like the million-dollar question, right? I mean, this is a big scary thing that we see all these headlines about.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s like the million-dollar question, right? I mean, this is a big scary thing that we see all these headlines about.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino weather events have been happening for thousands of years. It’s when tropical winds shift in the Pacific, warming ocean water. And when the ocean warms, it could reshape weather systems, bringing stormy weather to California and disrupting marine life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino weather events have been happening for thousands of years. It’s when tropical winds shift in the Pacific, warming ocean water. And when the ocean warms, it could reshape weather systems, bringing stormy weather to California and disrupting marine life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Warm water, the ocean, affects how weather happens all around the whole world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Warm water, the ocean, affects how weather happens all around the whole world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Today, what this year’s El Niño will mean for the Bay and how to stay prepared.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Today, what this year’s El Niño will mean for the Bay and how to stay prepared.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, officials say that there’s a 69% chance this El Nino could exceed the strength of any El Nino dating back to 1950, that’s when records began.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, officials say that there’s a 69% chance this El Nino could exceed the strength of any El Nino dating back to 1950, that’s when records began.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra David Romero is a climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra David Romero is a climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino’s are a natural climate phenomenon. They happen in the ocean, you know, this communication between land and sea. You know, studies indicate that human-caused climate change is creating a warmer, more moisture-related atmosphere, right, like up in the air. And that can, like, intensify the power and rainfall capacity of these modern El Nino events.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino’s are a natural climate phenomenon. They happen in the ocean, you know, this communication between land and sea. You know, studies indicate that human-caused climate change is creating a warmer, more moisture-related atmosphere, right, like up in the air. And that can, like, intensify the power and rainfall capacity of these modern El Nino events.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So, we’re going to have a lot more warmer water along our coast, and broad strokes, how could that then impact us in the Bay Area? What kind of impacts may people feel in their everyday lives?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So, we’re going to have a lot more warmer water along our coast, and broad strokes, how could that then impact us in the Bay Area? What kind of impacts may people feel in their everyday lives?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What this could look like is like your street flooding if you live near the bay. If you live in San Francisco, if you lived in a place where there’s like poor drainage, if there’s a big rainstorm, your street could flood. Water could come from underneath your house into your place. That could also mean like if you’re like on highway 101 and it’s so wet, a mudslide could come in front of you in front your car. Could mean if you are a fisher or a person banking on these crabs or the species to be there and they’re not because of the warm water, like you know, your livelihood at stake. It also could mean like downed trees and things like that in communities, you know, it could mean power outages, but the list goes on and on. So I think that’s why like everyone should prepare for the worst. Like if it means you have a go bag with water and batteries and extra flashlights and some canned food, you know, in your home, there’s just like so many impacts that could be happening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What this could look like is like your street flooding if you live near the bay. If you live in San Francisco, if you lived in a place where there’s like poor drainage, if there’s a big rainstorm, your street could flood. Water could come from underneath your house into your place. That could also mean like if you’re like on highway 101 and it’s so wet, a mudslide could come in front of you in front your car. Could mean if you are a fisher or a person banking on these crabs or the species to be there and they’re not because of the warm water, like you know, your livelihood at stake. It also could mean like downed trees and things like that in communities, you know, it could mean power outages, but the list goes on and on. So I think that’s why like everyone should prepare for the worst. Like if it means you have a go bag with water and batteries and extra flashlights and some canned food, you know, in your home, there’s just like so many impacts that could be happening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And timeline-wise, when can we expect this El Nino to hit us here in the Bay Area the hardest?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And timeline-wise, when can we expect this El Nino to hit us here in the Bay Area the hardest?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Basically, this fall and winter, there are already effects in the ocean happening now down in Southern California. Like I talked to a scientist this week, he said the ocean water temperatures are already in the mid 70 degrees, ours are around mid 50s. So as we get deeper and deeper into fall and winter, that’s when we could see these effects of El Nino.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Basically, this fall and winter, there are already effects in the ocean happening now down in Southern California. Like I talked to a scientist this week, he said the ocean water temperatures are already in the mid 70 degrees, ours are around mid 50s. So as we get deeper and deeper into fall and winter, that’s when we could see these effects of El Nino.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I want to talk about how this might affect us here in the Bay Area. I’m thinking about a place that you’ve reported on quite a bit, San Rafael, which is also a place in the bay area that has flooded a lot already without El Nino. And it’s also a place. That’s now bracing for what is to come, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I want to talk about how this might affect us here in the Bay Area. I’m thinking about a place that you’ve reported on quite a bit, San Rafael, which is also a place in the bay area that has flooded a lot already without El Nino. And it’s also a place. That’s now bracing for what is to come, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Exactly. San Rafael is this community up in Marin County. There’s a creek that runs from San Francisco Bay called San Rafael Creek through the town. And that creek is kind of massive. It is built up on all the sides with homes and businesses. This is a place that flooded almost every year during king tides. King tides are one of the highest tides of the year that correlate with the moon. This past January, the King Tide happened that like with these back to back storms. And so the water was extra high and it flooded parts of neighborhoods and businesses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Exactly. San Rafael is this community up in Marin County. There’s a creek that runs from San Francisco Bay called San Rafael Creek through the town. And that creek is kind of massive. It is built up on all the sides with homes and businesses. This is a place that flooded almost every year during king tides. King tides are one of the highest tides of the year that correlate with the moon. This past January, the King Tide happened that like with these back to back storms. And so the water was extra high and it flooded parts of neighborhoods and businesses.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We flooded from the back wall all the way to the bathrooms to here and the karate school dojo went about three to four inches under water.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We flooded from the back wall all the way to the bathrooms to here and the karate school dojo went about three to four inches under water.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I met a guy named Derek Bentley back in January. He runs a karate studio right next to a marina of this creek and his business flooded from the inside out and through the front door.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I met a guy named Derek Bentley back in January. He runs a karate studio right next to a marina of this creek and his business flooded from the inside out and through the front door.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So the mats started filling with water and then they started kind of bubbling a little bit because all the foam in there started getting big and then we had another flood that happens underneath the mats.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So the mats started filling with water and then they started kind of bubbling a little bit because all the foam in there started getting big and then we had another flood that happens underneath the mats.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He’s super nervous that what could happen this winter could be worse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He’s super nervous that what could happen this winter could be worse.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And like a lot of coastal cities, I mean, here in the Bay Area, I have to imagine a lot preparation is going on. So what is San Rafael doing to prepare?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And like a lot of coastal cities, I mean, here in the Bay Area, I have to imagine a lot preparation is going on. So what is San Rafael doing to prepare?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I talked to Kate Hagemann about this, she’s the Climate Adaptation Resilience Planner with the City of San Rafael.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I talked to Kate Hagemann about this, she’s the Climate Adaptation Resilience Planner with the City of San Rafael.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Our main options are just to do what we can to get people and critical equipment out of harm’s way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Our main options are just to do what we can to get people and critical equipment out of harm’s way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re working with the community. They want to create messaging so when flooding happens, they can put messaging out like, no, avoid this area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re working with the community. They want to create messaging so when flooding happens, they can put messaging out like, no, avoid this area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We have to focus, especially as bad weather approaches, on just making sure people have a plan and somewhere to go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We have to focus, especially as bad weather approaches, on just making sure people have a plan and somewhere to go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re also working with groups like Caltrans and Highway Patrol and things like that because there are Highway 101 cuts through the town, that’s an area that could flood too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re also working with groups like Caltrans and Highway Patrol and things like that because there are Highway 101 cuts through the town, that’s an area that could flood too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We met with owners and operators of critical facilities like PG&E, water, sewer, fire, these areas are at risk. If this happens, then what?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We met with owners and operators of critical facilities like PG&E, water, sewer, fire, these areas are at risk. If this happens, then what?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>There are so many cities on our coast here in the Bay Area, I mean what else are cities doing to prepare and how can you prepare for something like this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>There are so many cities on our coast here in the Bay Area, I mean what else are cities doing to prepare and how can you prepare for something like this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I think cities across the Bay Area are thinking about this, you know, all at the same time. Places like Pacifica are thinking of the wave action that erodes the hills there, and what they do and how they message that. Places, like San Francisco, right, where we have this, like, huge downtown and this seawall that protects it that already floods in certain spots, they’re thinking about how they stop traffic, how they message to people. Do they put in pumps that can pump that water out? Because some of this water could go into like critical infrastructure, like the Muni tunnel. Cities like Alameda, you know, that are an island, they have water from all sides. And during these events where you have flooding from the side and from below, because it’s so saturated, they’re thinking about like similar things, like where they pump the water and also what kind of messaging, but also like what can homeowners do if like your basement’s full of water and you pump it out. So I think they’re encouraging people to come up with plans as well.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I think cities across the Bay Area are thinking about this, you know, all at the same time. Places like Pacifica are thinking of the wave action that erodes the hills there, and what they do and how they message that. Places, like San Francisco, right, where we have this, like, huge downtown and this seawall that protects it that already floods in certain spots, they’re thinking about how they stop traffic, how they message to people. Do they put in pumps that can pump that water out? Because some of this water could go into like critical infrastructure, like the Muni tunnel. Cities like Alameda, you know, that are an island, they have water from all sides. And during these events where you have flooding from the side and from below, because it’s so saturated, they’re thinking about like similar things, like where they pump the water and also what kind of messaging, but also like what can homeowners do if like your basement’s full of water and you pump it out. So I think they’re encouraging people to come up with plans as well.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Ezra David Romero right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Listener donations are the lifeblood of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. I mean, Ezra, it sounds like there’s this short-term preparation that’s sort of happening, but what about long-term?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Ezra David Romero right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Listener donations are the lifeblood of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. I mean, Ezra, it sounds like there’s this short-term preparation that’s sort of happening, but what about long-term?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>The Bay Area is thinking about this. You know, there was a bill passed a few years ago that mandates every coastal city and Bay Area city and county come up with like a sea level rise plan. And so all these cities around the Bay are like in some status of this. Places like Alameda, San Rafael, Suisin City, Oakland. The city of San Francisco has come up with a plan with the Army Corps of Engineers to re-engineer the entire seawall. And that’s a very active seawall within that seawall, it’s like BART infrastructure, Muni, you know, electrical lines.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>The Bay Area is thinking about this. You know, there was a bill passed a few years ago that mandates every coastal city and Bay Area city and county come up with like a sea level rise plan. And so all these cities around the Bay are like in some status of this. Places like Alameda, San Rafael, Suisin City, Oakland. The city of San Francisco has come up with a plan with the Army Corps of Engineers to re-engineer the entire seawall. And that’s a very active seawall within that seawall, it’s like BART infrastructure, Muni, you know, electrical lines.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, in some of these areas, we have very important assets for the functioning of the cities.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> I talked with Brad Benson about this. He’s the Waterfront Resilience Program Director for the Port of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>One of the goals of the Downtown Coastal Resilience Project is to defend that area from future flooding. So we don’t have a super storm sandy kind of event that floods our underground uni system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>One of the goals of the Downtown Coastal Resilience Project is to defend that area from future flooding. So we don’t have a super storm sandy kind of event that floods our underground uni system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They have a plan to do that, but they have to convince Congress to fund a big portion of it, because it’s going to cost billions of dollars to do.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They have a plan to do that, but they have to convince Congress to fund a big portion of it, because it’s going to cost billions of dollars to do.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And I want to go back, as read to Derek Bentley, who owns the karate studio in San Rafael. How is he preparing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He has this like, elaborate plan, sort of like, if the floods happen, he wants to get down there pretty immediately and like, put all these expensive mats he just bought like, up high so they don’t flood. He’s also working with the neighboring businesses, it’s like a long strip mo-\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He has this like, elaborate plan, sort of like, if the floods happen, he wants to get down there pretty immediately and like, put all these expensive mats he just bought like, up high so they don’t flood. He’s also working with the neighboring businesses, it’s like a long strip mo-\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>If I stop the water, you know it’s going to the next business. So they have to be ready. And you know, it’ll go to the next business\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>If I stop the water, you know it’s going to the next business. So they have to be ready. And you know, it’ll go to the next business\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They want to have this plan together, you know, so they can all make it in San Rafael. Because I mean, they’re like literally across the street, like from his front window, you can see boats rise up and down in this marina. And so like the threat is like right in front of them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They want to have this plan together, you know, so they can all make it in San Rafael. Because I mean, they’re like literally across the street, like from his front window, you can see boats rise up and down in this marina. And so like the threat is like right in front of them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>But my fear is just, we’re now getting to the point where you won’t be able to do anything. Like I can put tarps down, I can wrap them, I can send bags down, but my fear is that we’ll lose this place because it’ll just be too much water.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>But my fear is just, we’re now getting to the point where you won’t be able to do anything. Like I can put tarps down, I can wrap them, I can send bags down, but my fear is that we’ll lose this place because it’ll just be too much water.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What about us as individual people? What might we do to prepare for this El Nino?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What about us as individual people? What might we do to prepare for this El Nino?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Yeah, I talked to a lot of experts about this and they, you know, basically say like preparation is like the number one thing you can do. Like have a list of things that you need to take with you on your refrigerator. Think about this now, like meet your neighbors if you don’t know them, get their phone numbers, especially live in an area that floods, you know, clear drains. If you have a roof, make sure it’s not leaking. You know, if you have like a creek or like a something like that in your backyard, make sure you clear it out. So like if there is a big rainstorm, you know, it doesn’t get clogged in your home floods. It’s like. Talk to your neighbors, make a plan, and do that now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Yeah, I talked to a lot of experts about this and they, you know, basically say like preparation is like the number one thing you can do. Like have a list of things that you need to take with you on your refrigerator. Think about this now, like meet your neighbors if you don’t know them, get their phone numbers, especially live in an area that floods, you know, clear drains. If you have a roof, make sure it’s not leaking. You know, if you have like a creek or like a something like that in your backyard, make sure you clear it out. So like if there is a big rainstorm, you know, it doesn’t get clogged in your home floods. It’s like. Talk to your neighbors, make a plan, and do that now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Why is it going to be important to see how this El Nino affects the Bay Area this winter?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>Well, I think what happens this year is sort of like this like window into the future. What could happen with sea level rise? Like state scientists project that we could have like one to three and a half feet by mid-century and even way more by the end of the century. What we’re going to see, depending on what happens to see or is sort like what could be like everyday flooding or everyday high tide levels in the next 20 to 70 years. Like I think this is an opportune moment to like witness our responses and what, what, what we do with it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>Well, I think what happens this year is sort of like this like window into the future. What could happen with sea level rise? Like state scientists project that we could have like one to three and a half feet by mid-century and even way more by the end of the century. What we’re going to see, depending on what happens to see or is sort like what could be like everyday flooding or everyday high tide levels in the next 20 to 70 years. Like I think this is an opportune moment to like witness our responses and what, what, what we do with it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra thank you so much as always.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra thank you so much as always.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>That was Ezra David Romero, a climate reporter for KQED. I’m gonna leave you a link to Ezra’s guide on how to prepare for El Nino in our show notes. This conversation with Ezra was cut down and edited by Pauline Bartolone. Gabriela Glueck is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape, music courtesy of Audio Network and APM. If you want to get in touch with us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebay.kqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevvara. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is getting ready for a ‘Super El Niño’ this winter. This natural weather pattern, — made worse by human-caused climate change — could bring flooding, mudslides, power outages and road closures. KQED Climate reporter Ezra David Romero explains how we might feel the impact of El Niño in our day to day lives. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/news/12097546/el-nino-could-bring-a-wet-wild-winter-how-can-you-and-your-home-be-ready\">Guide: El Niño Could Bring a Wet, Wild Winter. How Can You — and Your Home — Be Ready?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8572061849\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Episode transcript\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This transcript is computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Scientists have been warning about a super El Niño this year, which will bring wetter than normal weather to the Bay Area. But what is an El Niño?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero:\u003c/strong> Yeah, that’s like the million-dollar question, right? I mean, this is a big scary thing that we see all these headlines about.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino weather events have been happening for thousands of years. It’s when tropical winds shift in the Pacific, warming ocean water. And when the ocean warms, it could reshape weather systems, bringing stormy weather to California and disrupting marine life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Warm water, the ocean, affects how weather happens all around the whole world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Today, what this year’s El Niño will mean for the Bay and how to stay prepared.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, officials say that there’s a 69% chance this El Nino could exceed the strength of any El Nino dating back to 1950, that’s when records began.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra David Romero is a climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>El Nino’s are a natural climate phenomenon. They happen in the ocean, you know, this communication between land and sea. You know, studies indicate that human-caused climate change is creating a warmer, more moisture-related atmosphere, right, like up in the air. And that can, like, intensify the power and rainfall capacity of these modern El Nino events.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So, we’re going to have a lot more warmer water along our coast, and broad strokes, how could that then impact us in the Bay Area? What kind of impacts may people feel in their everyday lives?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What this could look like is like your street flooding if you live near the bay. If you live in San Francisco, if you lived in a place where there’s like poor drainage, if there’s a big rainstorm, your street could flood. Water could come from underneath your house into your place. That could also mean like if you’re like on highway 101 and it’s so wet, a mudslide could come in front of you in front your car. Could mean if you are a fisher or a person banking on these crabs or the species to be there and they’re not because of the warm water, like you know, your livelihood at stake. It also could mean like downed trees and things like that in communities, you know, it could mean power outages, but the list goes on and on. So I think that’s why like everyone should prepare for the worst. Like if it means you have a go bag with water and batteries and extra flashlights and some canned food, you know, in your home, there’s just like so many impacts that could be happening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And timeline-wise, when can we expect this El Nino to hit us here in the Bay Area the hardest?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Basically, this fall and winter, there are already effects in the ocean happening now down in Southern California. Like I talked to a scientist this week, he said the ocean water temperatures are already in the mid 70 degrees, ours are around mid 50s. So as we get deeper and deeper into fall and winter, that’s when we could see these effects of El Nino.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I want to talk about how this might affect us here in the Bay Area. I’m thinking about a place that you’ve reported on quite a bit, San Rafael, which is also a place in the bay area that has flooded a lot already without El Nino. And it’s also a place. That’s now bracing for what is to come, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Exactly. San Rafael is this community up in Marin County. There’s a creek that runs from San Francisco Bay called San Rafael Creek through the town. And that creek is kind of massive. It is built up on all the sides with homes and businesses. This is a place that flooded almost every year during king tides. King tides are one of the highest tides of the year that correlate with the moon. This past January, the King Tide happened that like with these back to back storms. And so the water was extra high and it flooded parts of neighborhoods and businesses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We flooded from the back wall all the way to the bathrooms to here and the karate school dojo went about three to four inches under water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I met a guy named Derek Bentley back in January. He runs a karate studio right next to a marina of this creek and his business flooded from the inside out and through the front door.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>So the mats started filling with water and then they started kind of bubbling a little bit because all the foam in there started getting big and then we had another flood that happens underneath the mats.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He’s super nervous that what could happen this winter could be worse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And like a lot of coastal cities, I mean, here in the Bay Area, I have to imagine a lot preparation is going on. So what is San Rafael doing to prepare?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I talked to Kate Hagemann about this, she’s the Climate Adaptation Resilience Planner with the City of San Rafael.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Our main options are just to do what we can to get people and critical equipment out of harm’s way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re working with the community. They want to create messaging so when flooding happens, they can put messaging out like, no, avoid this area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We have to focus, especially as bad weather approaches, on just making sure people have a plan and somewhere to go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They’re also working with groups like Caltrans and Highway Patrol and things like that because there are Highway 101 cuts through the town, that’s an area that could flood too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kate Hagemann\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We met with owners and operators of critical facilities like PG&E, water, sewer, fire, these areas are at risk. If this happens, then what?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>There are so many cities on our coast here in the Bay Area, I mean what else are cities doing to prepare and how can you prepare for something like this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>I think cities across the Bay Area are thinking about this, you know, all at the same time. Places like Pacifica are thinking of the wave action that erodes the hills there, and what they do and how they message that. Places, like San Francisco, right, where we have this, like, huge downtown and this seawall that protects it that already floods in certain spots, they’re thinking about how they stop traffic, how they message to people. Do they put in pumps that can pump that water out? Because some of this water could go into like critical infrastructure, like the Muni tunnel. Cities like Alameda, you know, that are an island, they have water from all sides. And during these events where you have flooding from the side and from below, because it’s so saturated, they’re thinking about like similar things, like where they pump the water and also what kind of messaging, but also like what can homeowners do if like your basement’s full of water and you pump it out. So I think they’re encouraging people to come up with plans as well.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Ezra David Romero right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the local deep dives that we bring you on the bay, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. Listener donations are the lifeblood of what we do here at KQED. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back. I mean, Ezra, it sounds like there’s this short-term preparation that’s sort of happening, but what about long-term?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>The Bay Area is thinking about this. You know, there was a bill passed a few years ago that mandates every coastal city and Bay Area city and county come up with like a sea level rise plan. And so all these cities around the Bay are like in some status of this. Places like Alameda, San Rafael, Suisin City, Oakland. The city of San Francisco has come up with a plan with the Army Corps of Engineers to re-engineer the entire seawall. And that’s a very active seawall within that seawall, it’s like BART infrastructure, Muni, you know, electrical lines.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>You know, in some of these areas, we have very important assets for the functioning of the cities.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> I talked with Brad Benson about this. He’s the Waterfront Resilience Program Director for the Port of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brad Benson\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>One of the goals of the Downtown Coastal Resilience Project is to defend that area from future flooding. So we don’t have a super storm sandy kind of event that floods our underground uni system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They have a plan to do that, but they have to convince Congress to fund a big portion of it, because it’s going to cost billions of dollars to do.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>And I want to go back, as read to Derek Bentley, who owns the karate studio in San Rafael. How is he preparing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>He has this like, elaborate plan, sort of like, if the floods happen, he wants to get down there pretty immediately and like, put all these expensive mats he just bought like, up high so they don’t flood. He’s also working with the neighboring businesses, it’s like a long strip mo-\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>If I stop the water, you know it’s going to the next business. So they have to be ready. And you know, it’ll go to the next business\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>They want to have this plan together, you know, so they can all make it in San Rafael. Because I mean, they’re like literally across the street, like from his front window, you can see boats rise up and down in this marina. And so like the threat is like right in front of them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Derek Bentley\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>But my fear is just, we’re now getting to the point where you won’t be able to do anything. Like I can put tarps down, I can wrap them, I can send bags down, but my fear is that we’ll lose this place because it’ll just be too much water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>What about us as individual people? What might we do to prepare for this El Nino?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Yeah, I talked to a lot of experts about this and they, you know, basically say like preparation is like the number one thing you can do. Like have a list of things that you need to take with you on your refrigerator. Think about this now, like meet your neighbors if you don’t know them, get their phone numbers, especially live in an area that floods, you know, clear drains. If you have a roof, make sure it’s not leaking. You know, if you have like a creek or like a something like that in your backyard, make sure you clear it out. So like if there is a big rainstorm, you know, it doesn’t get clogged in your home floods. It’s like. Talk to your neighbors, make a plan, and do that now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Why is it going to be important to see how this El Nino affects the Bay Area this winter?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero \u003c/strong>Well, I think what happens this year is sort of like this like window into the future. What could happen with sea level rise? Like state scientists project that we could have like one to three and a half feet by mid-century and even way more by the end of the century. What we’re going to see, depending on what happens to see or is sort like what could be like everyday flooding or everyday high tide levels in the next 20 to 70 years. Like I think this is an opportune moment to like witness our responses and what, what, what we do with it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Ezra thank you so much as always.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ezra David Romero\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003cstrong>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/strong> \u003c/strong>That was Ezra David Romero, a climate reporter for KQED. I’m gonna leave you a link to Ezra’s guide on how to prepare for El Nino in our show notes. This conversation with Ezra was cut down and edited by Pauline Bartolone. Gabriela Glueck is our producer. She scored this episode and added all the tape, music courtesy of Audio Network and APM. If you want to get in touch with us here at The Bay, feel free to send us an email. We’re at thebay.kqed.org. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevvara. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you next time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Before Apple Watches, Oura Rings and Fitbits delivered mountains of health data to the masses, a group of obsessive self-tracking enthusiasts in Silicon Valley started a movement with the tagline “self-knowledge through numbers.” This was the Quantified Self. From tracking “urges to take aspirin” to using infrared cameras to keep tabs on sleeping positions while snoring, these eccentric knowledge-seekers built a community around technical expertise and an ethos of self-discovery. Reporter Gabriela Glueck traces what happened when self-tracking went mainstream — and how the data-obsessed idealists watched their movement get swallowed up by corporate tech giants with products to sell.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7979965838\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bookpassage.com/book/9781523527922\">The Quantified Self: Learning to Observe\u003c/a> — Gary Wolf, \u003cem>Workman Publishing Company\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/data-overload-quantified-self-really-future-n189596\">Data Overload: Is the ‘Quantified Self’ Really the Future?\u003c/a> — John Fortt, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/kg8-D4h5miE?si=3_PxJY0A6qK4qz6c\">Wearable Health Tech: Helpful Tool Or Health Hype\u003c/a> — @TalkingWithDocs, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.seattletimes.com/business/the-cutthroat-wearables-battle-is-about-more-than-tracking-your-fitness/\">The cutthroat wearables battle is about more than tracking your fitness\u003c/a> — Brent Crane, \u003cem>The Seattle Times\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/wellness-tracking-apps-sleep-score-stress-hurting-health-2026-6\">Wearables, Health-Tracking Apps Are Stressing Users, Causing Harm\u003c/a> — Emily Stewart, \u003cem>Business Insider\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckbrooks/2026/08/25/the-new-world-of-wearables-from-health-monitoring-to-human-augmentation/\">The New World Of Wearables: From Health Monitoring To Human Augmentation\u003c/a> — Chuck Brooks, \u003cem>Forbes\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hey Tabbies! We cover a lot on this show, but it’s basically impossible to keep tabs on everything going on online. So if there is a specific topic or story or rabbit hole you’re curious about that we haven’t done a deep dive into yet, you’re in luck! We just launched a listener question form, so you can ask us about internet trends, tech subcultures, or other online oddities you want Close All Tabs to cover! Check it out at KQED.org/closealltabs, and scroll to the bottom of the page. Or, click the link in our show notes. Ok, let’s get to the episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a good chance you’re being tracked, by you. Nearly one in three U.S. adults uses a wearable device to track their health and fitness. I’m talking Apple Watches, Oura Rings, Fitbits. Even our phones and cars have trackers. We track our sleep, heart rate, steps, location, behaviors, habits, and so much more. Self-tracking has become the norm but it wasn’t always this way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For much of history, self-tracking was the domain of eccentrics and obsessive academics. They were the freaks to the rest of polite society. Like in the 1600s, Venetian physician, Santorio Santorio built the weighing chair and obsessively tracked his weight. He measured everything he ate and drank, as well as everything that came out of his body. Founding father, Benjamin Franklin, also a meticulous self-tracker. He kept detailed accounts of his daily activities. But these were more than just diary entries. They were detailed charts, a rubric of the 13 virtues he wanted to live up to, logged every day of the week, also known as a habit tracker. And then there’s Buckminster Fuller, the architect, philosopher, inventor, and all-around futurist. From 1917 up until his death in the 1980s, Buckminster Fuller kept an exhaustive archive of his life: newspaper clippings, drawings, blueprints, receipts, and all correspondence. As a lifelong journaler, I aspire to archive my life like that. But again, these were outliers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, in the late 2000s, a group of self-tracking enthusiasts started a movement to create and share ways of obsessively collecting data on themselves. It was called the quantified self. Today, we’re exploring the early days of this obscure tech subculture and what changed when tracking went mainstream. And we’ll try to understand whether our mountains of self-track data are actually helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. This week, I’m passing the mouse and the mic to KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. She is going to lead this deep dive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. I’ll start like you do, by opening a new tab: The Quantified Self Movement. We’re going back to 2007, 2008, a time, technologically speaking, that feels so far from where we are today, you could consider christening it vintage. Apple had just released the first model of something they decided to call the iPhone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple Event]\u003cbr>Voice Over: Apple is going to reinvent the phone.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Lots of people were getting online to join a thing called Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Film The Social Network (2010)] \u003cbr>\u003cem>Mark Zuckerberg character: That’s what the Facebook is going to be about. People are going to log on because after all the cake and watermelon there’s a chance they’re actually going..\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: …to get laid\u003cbr>Mark Zuckerberg character: …meet a girl. Yes.\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: That is really good.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And the first Kindle even made its debut.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Kindle Commercial] \u003cbr>Voice Over: Now there’s a way to put 80,000 books, newspapers, and blogs right in the palm of your hand.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Complete with Blackberry-esque buttons that made it look more like a giant calculator than a book. Culturally, things were also a buzz. The final installment of Harry Potter had hit bookstores, Obama was about to get elected, and Rihanna was dropping bangers. -.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Rihanna song] \u003cbr>♪ You can stand under my umbrella. You can stand under my umbrella.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This was the backdrop that Gary Wolf found himself in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I was working as a journalist at that time and writing about the cultural impacts of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Gary was working for Wired Magazine, and he’d been getting interested in a new tech trend – self-tracking. More specifically, he was interested in how technology was allowing people to track their lives in novel and interesting ways. Suddenly, you could do things like input everything you ate into an online calculator to track calories, or clock every single restaurant, coffee shop, and store you went to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The very first popular geolocation systems were just coming out. So Foursquare, which is ancient now, so people were tracking where they had been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And courtesy of 23andMe, you could even spit into a test tube, mail it back to a lab, and log online to find out more about your own DNA. People had begun thinking about themselves and their behaviors as data. It was all enough to make Gary wonder.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>How are we going to use those tools? And what effect were they going to have on how they thought about ourselves?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That question fascinated Gary. It brought together both his love of new technology with his penchant for philosophizing. So he brought the idea to his editor at Wired Magazine, a guy named Kevin Kelly. Basically saying, ‘hey, this seems really interesting. Nobody is talking about it that much. I feel like we should report on it.’ Then they came up with the name for the new beat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>We put up some things on a whiteboard and I put the name “quantified self” on it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Quantified self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The self is the topic, and the quantified is, okay, what is the effect on the self of having access to data, access to new reasoning capacity, access to observational capacity through sensing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary told me the story about how it all went down, the quantified self, or QS, sounded interesting, but still kind of abstract and theoretical. And maybe the Wired duo were dealing with that same feeling because their next step was all about grounding their questions in the real world, finding people who were doing early self-tracking projects and trying to understand why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>We didn’t know that we would be encountering an already existing DIY culture of knowledge making, but it was there. So where did it come from? How did it get there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>They decided the best way to get answers would be to bring the stories to them. So they organized a meetup. It was gonna be at Kevin’s house in Pacifica, a coastal bay area town right next to tech’s epicenter. Although they didn’t know what to expect, the turnout was pretty good, about 20 or so people. Being basically right on top of Silicon Valley probably helped them draw a crowd. Anyways, they were all crowded into the space, sitting in an assortment of chairs. All pointed towards the front of the room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting around talking about what we were doing, very informally, and introducing ourselves, and somebody walked in late, and Kevin turned to him, his name was Ka-Ping Yee,, and said, “okay, you came in last, you go first, what are you doing? “\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Instead of offering up a standard introduction, Ka-Ping Yee opened his computer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And showed this detailed time diary of everything he’d done in the last year while he was working on his dissertation in 15-minute increments. And it was so fascinating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After Ka-Ping, other people presented their projects. There was Berkeley psychology professor, Seth Roberts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think he presented something about improving his balance. He was measuring it by standing on one foot. And so he would just start a timer and he would stand on one and he would see how long he could stand on a foot for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I talked to engineer and businessman Rajiv Mehta, who was at that first meeting, he said the common reaction from people who showed up was shock, shock that there were enough people nerdy enough to care about this sort of thing at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>And so it was just fantastic that there were other people interested in, just as importantly, to discover the huge range of interests in that tiny little group, which gave us all a sense of, this is much richer than any of us actually had thought.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And among the attendees were people who’d later go on to become famous, like Tim Ferriss, author of “The Four Hour Workweek.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>He’d been a wrestler in high school and college and so forth and he talked about how, like, he had these detailed records of what he ate and his exercise and so forth. And he made the claim that even today, if he wanted to hit a certain weight that he would be able to reproduce it by going to his old notes and following them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though everyone’s project was different, a kind of unifying undercurrent ran through the group. They were all the type of people who would spend their free time doing a QS project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>People were sort of attracted to this kind of self-tracking practice because they had two interests at the same time. On the one hand, they had a personal question that they were really interested in and they were scientific and technical professionals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When they had a personal question, it made sense to use the science techie tools they were already familiar with. As Gary tells it,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Without us really even doing anything, this genre was born.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica Meetup became the first of many, something called the Quantified Self Show and Tell.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like looking back to second grade. And it was really nice and interesting because it wasn’t about pitching anything, it wasn’t about convincing anybody that you had some magic solution, which was very common in the tech world. It was really just about saying what you personally had learned from doing something that you hadn’t necessarily been able to do even a year or two ago with the tools that were available then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Though they didn’t fully know it at the time, the Pacifica meeting was the start of something, something that was about to get big, or at least bigger. To get into that, let’s open a new tab: quantified self goes mainstream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After that first meeting in 2008, QS started to generate some buzz. Gary and his Wired editor, Kevin, made a blog for the quantified self as a way to catalog their discoveries and possibly showcase their incredible tagline, “self-knowledge through numbers. “There was also a QS forum and it gained traction as people shared their idiosyncratic projects and experiences online. Gary says this kind of knowledge sharing was a big part of the early community’s ethos. Very much in line with the budding DIY culture of the late 2000s and early 2010s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So people were sharing information on the internet about how to do things that were part really of a professional research repertoire but had started to become available to somewhat technical people to do at home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>QSers began spreading the show-and-tell format nationally and then internationally. One 2014 report points to over 100 QS meetup groups in 30 countries, with about 20,000 overall participants. Clearly, they’d hit upon something that resonated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>It was just a great way to just connect with a community of people all like-minded folks and really just learning from each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob Troia attended one of the early QS meetings in New York City, after hearing about some Bay Area folks who’d started some kind of self-research movement. He was already interested in tracking himself, and the association with Tim Ferriss didn’t hurt either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>And I showed up one day and watched people get these like 10, 12 minute talks about their own self-experiments, very informal, very casual, but it was very inspirational. And then I was like, wow, there’s actually a lot of people out there just, just like me. I’m not the weird one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob quickly got deep into QS. He even visited the Bay Area for a QS conference. After that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>I set up a blog that night like while I was in a hotel room and I just started writing I think my first post and I went and got a domain name quantifiedbob.com\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you talk to more people in the early QS movement, you’ll hear a similar story. They were outcasts, nerds, the weird ones tracking their every move. Here’s Gary again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think people who have really intense scientific and technical interests, many of them are used to being outliers in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He says this outsider identity became something like a point of pride and made the meetups that much more important. When you’re doing something that’s so far from the mainstream, community really matters. It’s kind of hard to imagine today since Apple Watches and self-tracking devices like Oura rings, a wearable smart ring, are so popular. But back in the 2010s, this was really niche stuff. And there was another piece of it. Because the technology was less advanced with way more friction. You had to put in a lot of effort to get data on yourself. Instead of just strapping on an Apple Watch and checking your phone, it was more like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Okay I set up an infrared camera and I recorded myself as I slept and tried to figure out if my snoring was connected to my posture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>To understand just how intensive or well thought out early QS projects were, Gary likes to point to examples, and there are many to choose from. But for the sake of time, we’ll look at one: the story of Jakob Eg Larsen. He’s one of Gary’s friends and co-founder of Quantified Self Copenhagen. His problem? Headaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>He took regular medication for those headaches, painkillers, and he decided that he wanted to really understand whether there was some pattern to his headaches and whether there were some things he could do besides take painkillers that would help him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Step one for Jakob, figure out how to measure a headache.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And he found it surprisingly difficult. There are so many apps for recording headaches, but they require you to make a lot of subtle judgments like, ‘okay, my headache started and now I think it’s gone and now it’s back again. Does that count as one headache or two headaches?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Gary calls these moments of evaluation “little frictions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>They’re just demoralizing and they become a bother.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jakob needed to come up with a better metric, narrow his focus, figure out what data he could get that could help him understand his problem. So he decided to track each time he took an aspirin. That’d mean the headache had reached a certain threshold worth noting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So he just focused on observing. He didn’t focus on intervening. And already he started to learn a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He learned he was taking aspirins more than he thought, and more than was recommended. One side effect of too much aspirin consumption? More headaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>By tracking the aspirins, he sort of adjusted his willingness to sit with the headache a little bit longer before taking the aspirin, and eventually his headaches got better and his aspirin consumption went to zero.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But Jakob wanted to keep up his tracking, so he refined his data metric, this time to the urge to take aspirin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So this was a wonderful example of being able to get really useful empirical data from your daily life, even though you’re not really following any kind of pre-established or vetted protocol that comes to us from biomedicine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This project is a classic example of many early self-tracking efforts. It took a lot of thinking, refining, and all in all, a lot mental work. Also, it didn’t necessarily take fancy technology, just a little persistence. And for many people who were, for lack of a better word, desperate to learn something about themselves, that effort was worth it. Take Swedish engineer Sara Riggare. She’s quite famous in the QS world and has done many self-experiments, including one to help her understand how medication for her Parkinson’s was actually impacting her. Here she is in a short video from Salzburg Global.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Salzburg Global Video]\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sara Riggare: Patients can do a lot for themselves in that I have actually optimized my own medication effect by learning about my individual responses over time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As she likes to point out, many patients see their neurologist or doctor once or twice a year, maybe for an hour or less. The rest of the year is self-care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>If you have a good medical practitioner, they are gonna use a lot of trial and error with you. They’re gonna ask you, ‘how did that work?’ And you’re getting a better answer about how that worked is very helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Projects like Sarah’s and Jacob’s helped reveal the potential of self-investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So there was this feeling that there were new possibilities. They hadn’t been turned into products yet. At those very early meetings, you know, we were just meeting the people who would go on to start Oura Ring and the Fitbit and other tools that were just a few years down the road.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But of course, if an impulse can be had, it can be sold. That’s next, after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2014, Tim Cook walked onto the Apple stage wearing an Apple Watch, the ad for Apple’s first watch iteration playing on the screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003cbr>Tim Cook: Apple Watch is the most personal device we’ve ever created.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Because you wear it, he says, they invented new, intimate ways to connect and communicate directly from your wrist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Tim Cook: And it’s also a comprehensive health and fitness device.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By 2014, the Fitbit had already been out for a fat minute, and the Oura ring was just around the corner. And as the 2010s climbed to their peak, Gary says something about the QS movement started to shift too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>There’s a way in which those ideas have become very mainstream. And when that happens, you don’t necessarily need a special place to work them through. Like, okay, I’m the only one doing this, I’m using these DIY tools, I need to meet some other people so I don’t feel like I’m crazy to apply scientific methods to my own questions. That stopped really being the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>A blog from the time declared the quantified self-movement dead, but many QS enthusiasts online begged to differ. One commentator on the QS forum wrote, It’s a bit dystopian to think that big companies can/should/will replace the basic agency of I want to understand something in my life by handing answers to people. But of course, in some ways, that’s what happened. And the questions that first drew Gary in, ‘how people would use the technology’ and ‘how it would shape their lives’ were no longer being answered by a careful group of self-experimenters, but by everyone else. Which brings us to a new tab: Is all this tracking actually helping us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These days, wearable tracking devices are everywhere, and they collect health data seamlessly. So what’s the impact of all this automated number crunching? Are we any healthier or happier? Have we all finally achieved self-understanding? And what, if anything, have we lost? To help answer these questions, I’m fast forwarding. From where we left off around 2017, 2018 to present day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The term “obsessive tracker” has now taken on a different meaning. It’s for people obsessed with their Fitbits, not their infrared camera setup that helps them track their posture in relation to snoring. I figured I needed to talk to someone who had at one point been a bit of an obsessive tracker. So I called up the host of this very show, Morgan Sung. She got into the whole thing a couple years back, when she switched her ADHD meds and realized they weren’t really working.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I was having like these really weird reactions and like, I was so sweaty and my heart rate was like kind of all over the place and I just like felt kind of sick all the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As one does, Morgan got on Reddit and came across a post from a user recounting a similar experience. That user was wearing an Oura ring when it all happened and was able to collect some data validating their symptoms. So Morgan got a ring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I was like, for the next two weeks, I’m going to be a little bit miserable, but I can probably at least see if like what I’m feeling is real or maybe I’m just making it up. Cause I think I was, like, oh, maybe, maybe this is purely psychosomatic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Turns out it was real. Her heart rate and body temperature were spiking dramatically throughout the day. And Morgan says it was kind of reassuring to have what she thought she was feeling confirmed by data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Especially if you’re a marginalized person in any way who is maybe not often listened to by doctors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Oura Ring was also giving her insight into things she hadn’t necessarily asked for and offered up mountains of sleep data. Over time, her relationship with the device began to change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So at first it started as a novelty, and then I think, yeah, it did kind of become a little bit of a compulsion. I don’t think it was, like, obsessive, but, you know, I would, like, wake up in the morning, turn off my alarm, open the app, and check how I slept instead of just thinking, hmm, I slept this way. You know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If the app said she slept badly, it’d put a damper on her day, even if she herself disagreed. If she went out drinking with friends the night before, her ring would clock that. If she pushed herself harder at the gym, she’d find herself wondering what her ring would say, if it would notice, if would tell her she did well. After a while, it all started to get into her head.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I think like trying to optimize my body in that way made me feel like I was having less fun in my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Then something happened that forced her to cut ties with the ring for good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She lost the charger. I was visiting my parents on the other side of the country and I left it at their house. I was like, I’m not gonna buy a new charger. I’m just gonna go visit my parents and pick up my charger then. And it was funny because I went back home and my charger wasn’t there. And at that point, I think I just, I don’t know, it fizzled out. The novelty wore off and I guess I was, like, wow, I don’t know if this has added to my life significantly. I felt like I wasn’t missing anything.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Morgan likens her experience before, during, and after wearing her Oura ring to this meme that’s popular online. It has three characters in it, all at different stages of enlightenment about wearable trackers. On the far left of the spectrum is this guy who’s a total beginner. He’s never touched a wearable. He thinks the whole idea is stupid. Then in the middle, there’s a guy who has become obsessed with them, kind of like Morgan at the height of her Oura-ring obsession. And he’s like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oh, I wear the wearables. I know I can’t sleep without my Oura ring. I need to use my Whoop, or I need my Apple Watch to tell me if I slept well. And then on the far right is this guy who’s reached full enlightenment. Like, very sage-looking, hooded figure who’s like, you don’t need a wearable to be happy. These days, Morgan says she feels more like him. I think wearables can be really helpful, but I do kind of feel like that meme sometimes where I’m like, oh, you know, I can trust my body. I can be intuitive. You know, I can, kind of, trust myself to tell when something is feeling off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Of course, this is just Morgan’s story, but take a look at the Oura Ring Forum and you’ll find similar tales. Still, I was curious if at a large scale these tracking devices are helpful for most people. So I gave Australian sociologist Deborah Lupton a call. She studied health tracking for quite a long time and she gave me a very good scientist answer: kinda, maybe, sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>I’ve done research where people have said, look I’m bored with self-tracking, I’ve had enough of it, I’m just, you know, it hasn’t helped me, so I’m stopping. I’ve had research findings where people have said, say with chronic health conditions that on the one hand, yes it gives me control over my condition, it makes me feel as I have more control, but on the other hand I’m sick of it. It’s turning my home into a clinic. It’s complicated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Take some of the recent research on sleep trackers, for instance. One survey from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine says that more than half of adults who use sleep trackers say they’ve changed their sleep habits based on what they’ve learned. So on one hand, tracking can encourage healthy habits. But this effort at sleepmaxing, like so many optimization dreams, can also hurt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>In fact, in some ways it can make things worse because we know from sleep studies and studies with people with insomnia that the more you fret and worry about your sleep, the more it can then have this vicious circle where you can’t sleep.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Gary’s part, these tracking devices have kind of lost the plot of what the original quantified self-movement was all about, an approach to self-discovery, not a technology or a product.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The idea is something like I’m just gonna get the tool and something great is gonna happen. But what did you care about? That question was never answered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The early days, that first meeting in Pacifica, the thousands of personalized science projects, they all took so much effort, thinking, adjustment, and reflection. Just strapping on an Apple Watch, he’d argue, can’t be a replacement for all that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think, thinking about what’s going on and learning about what is going on with yourself, it requires active processing, right? Being told what’s happening is not the same thing as learning what’s happening from observation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The effort, it turns out, was part of the quest for self-knowledge too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>That whole process led to a kind of deeper insight, which is commercial self-tracking tools, they’re products and products are designed to serve people who have needs, specific needs. They’re fantastic if that’s your goal. What if your goal lies outside that area where all the attention has been focused? Nobody’s gonna make a product for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, the movement, if it should be called that, is in a limbo state. One QS member told me that COVID basically killed the last of the meetups, although apparently there are some people trying to pick them back up. Gary says that for anyone wanting to carry on the spirit of quantified self, he has one piece of advice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Don’t start with the data. That’s often a big mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Start with the question and work backwards. Ask yourself what it is about yourself you want to learn. Then become your own personal scientist, figuring out how you might answer it, going back to the drawing board again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like, scientific practice and a scientific mindset, it belongs to absolutely everybody. And if we want to solve problems, it helps to think about them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>It feels like an obvious takeaway, but maybe these days it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. That’s it for today’s deep dive. If you need to open more tabs on the quantified self-movement and the mass adoption of wearable trackers, check out the show notes for some further reading. And if that’s not enough, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you need to close your rings or whatever, well, that’s not my problem. I’m finally free from the wearables. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Gabriela Glueck. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor, Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I thought Apple Watches, and I still do, and I maintain this, I’m sorry if you get offended, anyone else, I think Apple Watches are very ugly. I’m so sorry to anyone who wears an Apple Watch, but I will not get that tan line. Like, I have yet to see a wearable tracker that isn’t a little bit heinous.\u003c/p>\n",
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"The Quantified Self: Learning to Observe — Gary Wolf, Workman Publishing Company",
"Data Overload: Is the ‘Quantified Self’ Really the Future? — John Fortt, NBC News",
"Wearable Health Tech: Helpful Tool Or Health Hype — @TalkingWithDocs, YouTube ",
"The cutthroat wearables battle is about more than tracking your fitness — Brent Crane, The Seattle Times",
"Wearables, Health-Tracking Apps Are Stressing Users, Causing Harm — Emily Stewart, Business Insider",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hey Tabbies! We cover a lot on this show, but it’s basically impossible to keep tabs on everything going on online. So if there is a specific topic or story or rabbit hole you’re curious about that we haven’t done a deep dive into yet, you’re in luck! We just launched a listener question form, so you can ask us about internet trends, tech subcultures, or other online oddities you want Close All Tabs to cover! Check it out at KQED.org/closealltabs, and scroll to the bottom of the page. Or, click the link in our show notes. Ok, let’s get to the episode.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hey Tabbies! We cover a lot on this show, but it’s basically impossible to keep tabs on everything going on online. So if there is a specific topic or story or rabbit hole you’re curious about that we haven’t done a deep dive into yet, you’re in luck! We just launched a listener question form, so you can ask us about internet trends, tech subcultures, or other online oddities you want Close All Tabs to cover! Check it out at KQED.org/closealltabs, and scroll to the bottom of the page. Or, click the link in our show notes. Ok, let’s get to the episode.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a good chance you’re being tracked, by you. Nearly one in three U.S. adults uses a wearable device to track their health and fitness. I’m talking Apple Watches, Oura Rings, Fitbits. Even our phones and cars have trackers. We track our sleep, heart rate, steps, location, behaviors, habits, and so much more. Self-tracking has become the norm but it wasn’t always this way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a good chance you’re being tracked, by you. Nearly one in three U.S. adults uses a wearable device to track their health and fitness. I’m talking Apple Watches, Oura Rings, Fitbits. Even our phones and cars have trackers. We track our sleep, heart rate, steps, location, behaviors, habits, and so much more. Self-tracking has become the norm but it wasn’t always this way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For much of history, self-tracking was the domain of eccentrics and obsessive academics. They were the freaks to the rest of polite society. Like in the 1600s, Venetian physician, Santorio Santorio built the weighing chair and obsessively tracked his weight. He measured everything he ate and drank, as well as everything that came out of his body. Founding father, Benjamin Franklin, also a meticulous self-tracker. He kept detailed accounts of his daily activities. But these were more than just diary entries. They were detailed charts, a rubric of the 13 virtues he wanted to live up to, logged every day of the week, also known as a habit tracker. And then there’s Buckminster Fuller, the architect, philosopher, inventor, and all-around futurist. From 1917 up until his death in the 1980s, Buckminster Fuller kept an exhaustive archive of his life: newspaper clippings, drawings, blueprints, receipts, and all correspondence. As a lifelong journaler, I aspire to archive my life like that. But again, these were outliers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For much of history, self-tracking was the domain of eccentrics and obsessive academics. They were the freaks to the rest of polite society. Like in the 1600s, Venetian physician, Santorio Santorio built the weighing chair and obsessively tracked his weight. He measured everything he ate and drank, as well as everything that came out of his body. Founding father, Benjamin Franklin, also a meticulous self-tracker. He kept detailed accounts of his daily activities. But these were more than just diary entries. They were detailed charts, a rubric of the 13 virtues he wanted to live up to, logged every day of the week, also known as a habit tracker. And then there’s Buckminster Fuller, the architect, philosopher, inventor, and all-around futurist. From 1917 up until his death in the 1980s, Buckminster Fuller kept an exhaustive archive of his life: newspaper clippings, drawings, blueprints, receipts, and all correspondence. As a lifelong journaler, I aspire to archive my life like that. But again, these were outliers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Then, in the late 2000s, a group of self-tracking enthusiasts started a movement to create and share ways of obsessively collecting data on themselves. It was called the quantified self. Today, we’re exploring the early days of this obscure tech subculture and what changed when tracking went mainstream. And we’ll try to understand whether our mountains of self-track data are actually helpful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. This week, I’m passing the mouse and the mic to KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. She is going to lead this deep dive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. I’ll start like you do, by opening a new tab: The Quantified Self Movement. We’re going back to 2007, 2008, a time, technologically speaking, that feels so far from where we are today, you could consider christening it vintage. Apple had just released the first model of something they decided to call the iPhone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. I’ll start like you do, by opening a new tab: The Quantified Self Movement. We’re going back to 2007, 2008, a time, technologically speaking, that feels so far from where we are today, you could consider christening it vintage. Apple had just released the first model of something they decided to call the iPhone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Lots of people were getting online to join a thing called Facebook.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Film The Social Network (2010)] \u003cbr>\u003cem>Mark Zuckerberg character: That’s what the Facebook is going to be about. People are going to log on because after all the cake and watermelon there’s a chance they’re actually going..\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: …to get laid\u003cbr>Mark Zuckerberg character: …meet a girl. Yes.\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: That is really good.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Film The Social Network (2010)] \u003cbr>\u003cem>Mark Zuckerberg character: That’s what the Facebook is going to be about. People are going to log on because after all the cake and watermelon there’s a chance they’re actually going..\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: …to get laid\u003cbr>Mark Zuckerberg character: …meet a girl. Yes.\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: That is really good.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And the first Kindle even made its debut.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Complete with Blackberry-esque buttons that made it look more like a giant calculator than a book. Culturally, things were also a buzz. The final installment of Harry Potter had hit bookstores, Obama was about to get elected, and Rihanna was dropping bangers. -.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This was the backdrop that Gary Wolf found himself in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Gary was working for Wired Magazine, and he’d been getting interested in a new tech trend – self-tracking. More specifically, he was interested in how technology was allowing people to track their lives in novel and interesting ways. Suddenly, you could do things like input everything you ate into an online calculator to track calories, or clock every single restaurant, coffee shop, and store you went to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The very first popular geolocation systems were just coming out. So Foursquare, which is ancient now, so people were tracking where they had been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And courtesy of 23andMe, you could even spit into a test tube, mail it back to a lab, and log online to find out more about your own DNA. People had begun thinking about themselves and their behaviors as data. It was all enough to make Gary wonder.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>How are we going to use those tools? And what effect were they going to have on how they thought about ourselves?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That question fascinated Gary. It brought together both his love of new technology with his penchant for philosophizing. So he brought the idea to his editor at Wired Magazine, a guy named Kevin Kelly. Basically saying, ‘hey, this seems really interesting. Nobody is talking about it that much. I feel like we should report on it.’ Then they came up with the name for the new beat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Quantified self.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The self is the topic, and the quantified is, okay, what is the effect on the self of having access to data, access to new reasoning capacity, access to observational capacity through sensing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The self is the topic, and the quantified is, okay, what is the effect on the self of having access to data, access to new reasoning capacity, access to observational capacity through sensing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary told me the story about how it all went down, the quantified self, or QS, sounded interesting, but still kind of abstract and theoretical. And maybe the Wired duo were dealing with that same feeling because their next step was all about grounding their questions in the real world, finding people who were doing early self-tracking projects and trying to understand why.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary told me the story about how it all went down, the quantified self, or QS, sounded interesting, but still kind of abstract and theoretical. And maybe the Wired duo were dealing with that same feeling because their next step was all about grounding their questions in the real world, finding people who were doing early self-tracking projects and trying to understand why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>We didn’t know that we would be encountering an already existing DIY culture of knowledge making, but it was there. So where did it come from? How did it get there?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>They decided the best way to get answers would be to bring the stories to them. So they organized a meetup. It was gonna be at Kevin’s house in Pacifica, a coastal bay area town right next to tech’s epicenter. Although they didn’t know what to expect, the turnout was pretty good, about 20 or so people. Being basically right on top of Silicon Valley probably helped them draw a crowd. Anyways, they were all crowded into the space, sitting in an assortment of chairs. All pointed towards the front of the room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>They decided the best way to get answers would be to bring the stories to them. So they organized a meetup. It was gonna be at Kevin’s house in Pacifica, a coastal bay area town right next to tech’s epicenter. Although they didn’t know what to expect, the turnout was pretty good, about 20 or so people. Being basically right on top of Silicon Valley probably helped them draw a crowd. Anyways, they were all crowded into the space, sitting in an assortment of chairs. All pointed towards the front of the room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting around talking about what we were doing, very informally, and introducing ourselves, and somebody walked in late, and Kevin turned to him, his name was Ka-Ping Yee,, and said, “okay, you came in last, you go first, what are you doing? “\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting around talking about what we were doing, very informally, and introducing ourselves, and somebody walked in late, and Kevin turned to him, his name was Ka-Ping Yee,, and said, “okay, you came in last, you go first, what are you doing? “\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Instead of offering up a standard introduction, Ka-Ping Yee opened his computer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And showed this detailed time diary of everything he’d done in the last year while he was working on his dissertation in 15-minute increments. And it was so fascinating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And showed this detailed time diary of everything he’d done in the last year while he was working on his dissertation in 15-minute increments. And it was so fascinating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After Ka-Ping, other people presented their projects. There was Berkeley psychology professor, Seth Roberts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think he presented something about improving his balance. He was measuring it by standing on one foot. And so he would just start a timer and he would stand on one and he would see how long he could stand on a foot for.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I talked to engineer and businessman Rajiv Mehta, who was at that first meeting, he said the common reaction from people who showed up was shock, shock that there were enough people nerdy enough to care about this sort of thing at all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>And so it was just fantastic that there were other people interested in, just as importantly, to discover the huge range of interests in that tiny little group, which gave us all a sense of, this is much richer than any of us actually had thought.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>And so it was just fantastic that there were other people interested in, just as importantly, to discover the huge range of interests in that tiny little group, which gave us all a sense of, this is much richer than any of us actually had thought.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And among the attendees were people who’d later go on to become famous, like Tim Ferriss, author of “The Four Hour Workweek.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And among the attendees were people who’d later go on to become famous, like Tim Ferriss, author of “The Four Hour Workweek.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>He’d been a wrestler in high school and college and so forth and he talked about how, like, he had these detailed records of what he ate and his exercise and so forth. And he made the claim that even today, if he wanted to hit a certain weight that he would be able to reproduce it by going to his old notes and following them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>He’d been a wrestler in high school and college and so forth and he talked about how, like, he had these detailed records of what he ate and his exercise and so forth. And he made the claim that even today, if he wanted to hit a certain weight that he would be able to reproduce it by going to his old notes and following them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though everyone’s project was different, a kind of unifying undercurrent ran through the group. They were all the type of people who would spend their free time doing a QS project.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though everyone’s project was different, a kind of unifying undercurrent ran through the group. They were all the type of people who would spend their free time doing a QS project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>People were sort of attracted to this kind of self-tracking practice because they had two interests at the same time. On the one hand, they had a personal question that they were really interested in and they were scientific and technical professionals.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>People were sort of attracted to this kind of self-tracking practice because they had two interests at the same time. On the one hand, they had a personal question that they were really interested in and they were scientific and technical professionals.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When they had a personal question, it made sense to use the science techie tools they were already familiar with. As Gary tells it,\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When they had a personal question, it made sense to use the science techie tools they were already familiar with. As Gary tells it,\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Without us really even doing anything, this genre was born.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Without us really even doing anything, this genre was born.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica Meetup became the first of many, something called the Quantified Self Show and Tell.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica Meetup became the first of many, something called the Quantified Self Show and Tell.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like looking back to second grade. And it was really nice and interesting because it wasn’t about pitching anything, it wasn’t about convincing anybody that you had some magic solution, which was very common in the tech world. It was really just about saying what you personally had learned from doing something that you hadn’t necessarily been able to do even a year or two ago with the tools that were available then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like looking back to second grade. And it was really nice and interesting because it wasn’t about pitching anything, it wasn’t about convincing anybody that you had some magic solution, which was very common in the tech world. It was really just about saying what you personally had learned from doing something that you hadn’t necessarily been able to do even a year or two ago with the tools that were available then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Though they didn’t fully know it at the time, the Pacifica meeting was the start of something, something that was about to get big, or at least bigger. To get into that, let’s open a new tab: quantified self goes mainstream.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Though they didn’t fully know it at the time, the Pacifica meeting was the start of something, something that was about to get big, or at least bigger. To get into that, let’s open a new tab: quantified self goes mainstream.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>After that first meeting in 2008, QS started to generate some buzz. Gary and his Wired editor, Kevin, made a blog for the quantified self as a way to catalog their discoveries and possibly showcase their incredible tagline, “self-knowledge through numbers. “There was also a QS forum and it gained traction as people shared their idiosyncratic projects and experiences online. Gary says this kind of knowledge sharing was a big part of the early community’s ethos. Very much in line with the budding DIY culture of the late 2000s and early 2010s.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>After that first meeting in 2008, QS started to generate some buzz. Gary and his Wired editor, Kevin, made a blog for the quantified self as a way to catalog their discoveries and possibly showcase their incredible tagline, “self-knowledge through numbers. “There was also a QS forum and it gained traction as people shared their idiosyncratic projects and experiences online. Gary says this kind of knowledge sharing was a big part of the early community’s ethos. Very much in line with the budding DIY culture of the late 2000s and early 2010s.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So people were sharing information on the internet about how to do things that were part really of a professional research repertoire but had started to become available to somewhat technical people to do at home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So people were sharing information on the internet about how to do things that were part really of a professional research repertoire but had started to become available to somewhat technical people to do at home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>QSers began spreading the show-and-tell format nationally and then internationally. One 2014 report points to over 100 QS meetup groups in 30 countries, with about 20,000 overall participants. Clearly, they’d hit upon something that resonated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>QSers began spreading the show-and-tell format nationally and then internationally. One 2014 report points to over 100 QS meetup groups in 30 countries, with about 20,000 overall participants. Clearly, they’d hit upon something that resonated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>It was just a great way to just connect with a community of people all like-minded folks and really just learning from each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>It was just a great way to just connect with a community of people all like-minded folks and really just learning from each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob Troia attended one of the early QS meetings in New York City, after hearing about some Bay Area folks who’d started some kind of self-research movement. He was already interested in tracking himself, and the association with Tim Ferriss didn’t hurt either.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob Troia attended one of the early QS meetings in New York City, after hearing about some Bay Area folks who’d started some kind of self-research movement. He was already interested in tracking himself, and the association with Tim Ferriss didn’t hurt either.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>And I showed up one day and watched people get these like 10, 12 minute talks about their own self-experiments, very informal, very casual, but it was very inspirational. And then I was like, wow, there’s actually a lot of people out there just, just like me. I’m not the weird one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>And I showed up one day and watched people get these like 10, 12 minute talks about their own self-experiments, very informal, very casual, but it was very inspirational. And then I was like, wow, there’s actually a lot of people out there just, just like me. I’m not the weird one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob quickly got deep into QS. He even visited the Bay Area for a QS conference. After that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob quickly got deep into QS. He even visited the Bay Area for a QS conference. After that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>I set up a blog that night like while I was in a hotel room and I just started writing I think my first post and I went and got a domain name quantifiedbob.com\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>I set up a blog that night like while I was in a hotel room and I just started writing I think my first post and I went and got a domain name quantifiedbob.com\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you talk to more people in the early QS movement, you’ll hear a similar story. They were outcasts, nerds, the weird ones tracking their every move. Here’s Gary again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you talk to more people in the early QS movement, you’ll hear a similar story. They were outcasts, nerds, the weird ones tracking their every move. Here’s Gary again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think people who have really intense scientific and technical interests, many of them are used to being outliers in some way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think people who have really intense scientific and technical interests, many of them are used to being outliers in some way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He says this outsider identity became something like a point of pride and made the meetups that much more important. When you’re doing something that’s so far from the mainstream, community really matters. It’s kind of hard to imagine today since Apple Watches and self-tracking devices like Oura rings, a wearable smart ring, are so popular. But back in the 2010s, this was really niche stuff. And there was another piece of it. Because the technology was less advanced with way more friction. You had to put in a lot of effort to get data on yourself. Instead of just strapping on an Apple Watch and checking your phone, it was more like…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He says this outsider identity became something like a point of pride and made the meetups that much more important. When you’re doing something that’s so far from the mainstream, community really matters. It’s kind of hard to imagine today since Apple Watches and self-tracking devices like Oura rings, a wearable smart ring, are so popular. But back in the 2010s, this was really niche stuff. And there was another piece of it. Because the technology was less advanced with way more friction. You had to put in a lot of effort to get data on yourself. Instead of just strapping on an Apple Watch and checking your phone, it was more like…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Okay I set up an infrared camera and I recorded myself as I slept and tried to figure out if my snoring was connected to my posture.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Okay I set up an infrared camera and I recorded myself as I slept and tried to figure out if my snoring was connected to my posture.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>To understand just how intensive or well thought out early QS projects were, Gary likes to point to examples, and there are many to choose from. But for the sake of time, we’ll look at one: the story of Jakob Eg Larsen. He’s one of Gary’s friends and co-founder of Quantified Self Copenhagen. His problem? Headaches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>To understand just how intensive or well thought out early QS projects were, Gary likes to point to examples, and there are many to choose from. But for the sake of time, we’ll look at one: the story of Jakob Eg Larsen. He’s one of Gary’s friends and co-founder of Quantified Self Copenhagen. His problem? Headaches.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>He took regular medication for those headaches, painkillers, and he decided that he wanted to really understand whether there was some pattern to his headaches and whether there were some things he could do besides take painkillers that would help him.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>He took regular medication for those headaches, painkillers, and he decided that he wanted to really understand whether there was some pattern to his headaches and whether there were some things he could do besides take painkillers that would help him.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Step one for Jakob, figure out how to measure a headache.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Step one for Jakob, figure out how to measure a headache.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And he found it surprisingly difficult. There are so many apps for recording headaches, but they require you to make a lot of subtle judgments like, ‘okay, my headache started and now I think it’s gone and now it’s back again. Does that count as one headache or two headaches?’\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And he found it surprisingly difficult. There are so many apps for recording headaches, but they require you to make a lot of subtle judgments like, ‘okay, my headache started and now I think it’s gone and now it’s back again. Does that count as one headache or two headaches?’\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Gary calls these moments of evaluation “little frictions.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>They’re just demoralizing and they become a bother.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jakob needed to come up with a better metric, narrow his focus, figure out what data he could get that could help him understand his problem. So he decided to track each time he took an aspirin. That’d mean the headache had reached a certain threshold worth noting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jakob needed to come up with a better metric, narrow his focus, figure out what data he could get that could help him understand his problem. So he decided to track each time he took an aspirin. That’d mean the headache had reached a certain threshold worth noting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So he just focused on observing. He didn’t focus on intervening. And already he started to learn a lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He learned he was taking aspirins more than he thought, and more than was recommended. One side effect of too much aspirin consumption? More headaches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He learned he was taking aspirins more than he thought, and more than was recommended. One side effect of too much aspirin consumption? More headaches.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>By tracking the aspirins, he sort of adjusted his willingness to sit with the headache a little bit longer before taking the aspirin, and eventually his headaches got better and his aspirin consumption went to zero.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>By tracking the aspirins, he sort of adjusted his willingness to sit with the headache a little bit longer before taking the aspirin, and eventually his headaches got better and his aspirin consumption went to zero.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But Jakob wanted to keep up his tracking, so he refined his data metric, this time to the urge to take aspirin.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But Jakob wanted to keep up his tracking, so he refined his data metric, this time to the urge to take aspirin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So this was a wonderful example of being able to get really useful empirical data from your daily life, even though you’re not really following any kind of pre-established or vetted protocol that comes to us from biomedicine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So this was a wonderful example of being able to get really useful empirical data from your daily life, even though you’re not really following any kind of pre-established or vetted protocol that comes to us from biomedicine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This project is a classic example of many early self-tracking efforts. It took a lot of thinking, refining, and all in all, a lot mental work. Also, it didn’t necessarily take fancy technology, just a little persistence. And for many people who were, for lack of a better word, desperate to learn something about themselves, that effort was worth it. Take Swedish engineer Sara Riggare. She’s quite famous in the QS world and has done many self-experiments, including one to help her understand how medication for her Parkinson’s was actually impacting her. Here she is in a short video from Salzburg Global.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This project is a classic example of many early self-tracking efforts. It took a lot of thinking, refining, and all in all, a lot mental work. Also, it didn’t necessarily take fancy technology, just a little persistence. And for many people who were, for lack of a better word, desperate to learn something about themselves, that effort was worth it. Take Swedish engineer Sara Riggare. She’s quite famous in the QS world and has done many self-experiments, including one to help her understand how medication for her Parkinson’s was actually impacting her. Here she is in a short video from Salzburg Global.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Salzburg Global Video]\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sara Riggare: Patients can do a lot for themselves in that I have actually optimized my own medication effect by learning about my individual responses over time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Salzburg Global Video]\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sara Riggare: Patients can do a lot for themselves in that I have actually optimized my own medication effect by learning about my individual responses over time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As she likes to point out, many patients see their neurologist or doctor once or twice a year, maybe for an hour or less. The rest of the year is self-care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As she likes to point out, many patients see their neurologist or doctor once or twice a year, maybe for an hour or less. The rest of the year is self-care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>If you have a good medical practitioner, they are gonna use a lot of trial and error with you. They’re gonna ask you, ‘how did that work?’ And you’re getting a better answer about how that worked is very helpful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>If you have a good medical practitioner, they are gonna use a lot of trial and error with you. They’re gonna ask you, ‘how did that work?’ And you’re getting a better answer about how that worked is very helpful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Projects like Sarah’s and Jacob’s helped reveal the potential of self-investigation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Projects like Sarah’s and Jacob’s helped reveal the potential of self-investigation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So there was this feeling that there were new possibilities. They hadn’t been turned into products yet. At those very early meetings, you know, we were just meeting the people who would go on to start Oura Ring and the Fitbit and other tools that were just a few years down the road.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So there was this feeling that there were new possibilities. They hadn’t been turned into products yet. At those very early meetings, you know, we were just meeting the people who would go on to start Oura Ring and the Fitbit and other tools that were just a few years down the road.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But of course, if an impulse can be had, it can be sold. That’s next, after this break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But of course, if an impulse can be had, it can be sold. That’s next, after this break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 2014, Tim Cook walked onto the Apple stage wearing an Apple Watch, the ad for Apple’s first watch iteration playing on the screen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 2014, Tim Cook walked onto the Apple stage wearing an Apple Watch, the ad for Apple’s first watch iteration playing on the screen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003cbr>Tim Cook: Apple Watch is the most personal device we’ve ever created.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003cbr>Tim Cook: Apple Watch is the most personal device we’ve ever created.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Because you wear it, he says, they invented new, intimate ways to connect and communicate directly from your wrist.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Because you wear it, he says, they invented new, intimate ways to connect and communicate directly from your wrist.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Tim Cook: And it’s also a comprehensive health and fitness device.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Tim Cook: And it’s also a comprehensive health and fitness device.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By 2014, the Fitbit had already been out for a fat minute, and the Oura ring was just around the corner. And as the 2010s climbed to their peak, Gary says something about the QS movement started to shift too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By 2014, the Fitbit had already been out for a fat minute, and the Oura ring was just around the corner. And as the 2010s climbed to their peak, Gary says something about the QS movement started to shift too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>There’s a way in which those ideas have become very mainstream. And when that happens, you don’t necessarily need a special place to work them through. Like, okay, I’m the only one doing this, I’m using these DIY tools, I need to meet some other people so I don’t feel like I’m crazy to apply scientific methods to my own questions. That stopped really being the case.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>There’s a way in which those ideas have become very mainstream. And when that happens, you don’t necessarily need a special place to work them through. Like, okay, I’m the only one doing this, I’m using these DIY tools, I need to meet some other people so I don’t feel like I’m crazy to apply scientific methods to my own questions. That stopped really being the case.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>A blog from the time declared the quantified self-movement dead, but many QS enthusiasts online begged to differ. One commentator on the QS forum wrote, It’s a bit dystopian to think that big companies can/should/will replace the basic agency of I want to understand something in my life by handing answers to people. But of course, in some ways, that’s what happened. And the questions that first drew Gary in, ‘how people would use the technology’ and ‘how it would shape their lives’ were no longer being answered by a careful group of self-experimenters, but by everyone else. Which brings us to a new tab: Is all this tracking actually helping us?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>A blog from the time declared the quantified self-movement dead, but many QS enthusiasts online begged to differ. One commentator on the QS forum wrote, It’s a bit dystopian to think that big companies can/should/will replace the basic agency of I want to understand something in my life by handing answers to people. But of course, in some ways, that’s what happened. And the questions that first drew Gary in, ‘how people would use the technology’ and ‘how it would shape their lives’ were no longer being answered by a careful group of self-experimenters, but by everyone else. Which brings us to a new tab: Is all this tracking actually helping us?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>These days, wearable tracking devices are everywhere, and they collect health data seamlessly. So what’s the impact of all this automated number crunching? Are we any healthier or happier? Have we all finally achieved self-understanding? And what, if anything, have we lost? To help answer these questions, I’m fast forwarding. From where we left off around 2017, 2018 to present day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>These days, wearable tracking devices are everywhere, and they collect health data seamlessly. So what’s the impact of all this automated number crunching? Are we any healthier or happier? Have we all finally achieved self-understanding? And what, if anything, have we lost? To help answer these questions, I’m fast forwarding. From where we left off around 2017, 2018 to present day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The term “obsessive tracker” has now taken on a different meaning. It’s for people obsessed with their Fitbits, not their infrared camera setup that helps them track their posture in relation to snoring. I figured I needed to talk to someone who had at one point been a bit of an obsessive tracker. So I called up the host of this very show, Morgan Sung. She got into the whole thing a couple years back, when she switched her ADHD meds and realized they weren’t really working.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The term “obsessive tracker” has now taken on a different meaning. It’s for people obsessed with their Fitbits, not their infrared camera setup that helps them track their posture in relation to snoring. I figured I needed to talk to someone who had at one point been a bit of an obsessive tracker. So I called up the host of this very show, Morgan Sung. She got into the whole thing a couple years back, when she switched her ADHD meds and realized they weren’t really working.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I was having like these really weird reactions and like, I was so sweaty and my heart rate was like kind of all over the place and I just like felt kind of sick all the time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I was having like these really weird reactions and like, I was so sweaty and my heart rate was like kind of all over the place and I just like felt kind of sick all the time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As one does, Morgan got on Reddit and came across a post from a user recounting a similar experience. That user was wearing an Oura ring when it all happened and was able to collect some data validating their symptoms. So Morgan got a ring.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As one does, Morgan got on Reddit and came across a post from a user recounting a similar experience. That user was wearing an Oura ring when it all happened and was able to collect some data validating their symptoms. So Morgan got a ring.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I was like, for the next two weeks, I’m going to be a little bit miserable, but I can probably at least see if like what I’m feeling is real or maybe I’m just making it up. Cause I think I was, like, oh, maybe, maybe this is purely psychosomatic.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I was like, for the next two weeks, I’m going to be a little bit miserable, but I can probably at least see if like what I’m feeling is real or maybe I’m just making it up. Cause I think I was, like, oh, maybe, maybe this is purely psychosomatic.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Turns out it was real. Her heart rate and body temperature were spiking dramatically throughout the day. And Morgan says it was kind of reassuring to have what she thought she was feeling confirmed by data.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Turns out it was real. Her heart rate and body temperature were spiking dramatically throughout the day. And Morgan says it was kind of reassuring to have what she thought she was feeling confirmed by data.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Especially if you’re a marginalized person in any way who is maybe not often listened to by doctors.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Especially if you’re a marginalized person in any way who is maybe not often listened to by doctors.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Oura Ring was also giving her insight into things she hadn’t necessarily asked for and offered up mountains of sleep data. Over time, her relationship with the device began to change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Oura Ring was also giving her insight into things she hadn’t necessarily asked for and offered up mountains of sleep data. Over time, her relationship with the device began to change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So at first it started as a novelty, and then I think, yeah, it did kind of become a little bit of a compulsion. I don’t think it was, like, obsessive, but, you know, I would, like, wake up in the morning, turn off my alarm, open the app, and check how I slept instead of just thinking, hmm, I slept this way. You know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So at first it started as a novelty, and then I think, yeah, it did kind of become a little bit of a compulsion. I don’t think it was, like, obsessive, but, you know, I would, like, wake up in the morning, turn off my alarm, open the app, and check how I slept instead of just thinking, hmm, I slept this way. You know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If the app said she slept badly, it’d put a damper on her day, even if she herself disagreed. If she went out drinking with friends the night before, her ring would clock that. If she pushed herself harder at the gym, she’d find herself wondering what her ring would say, if it would notice, if would tell her she did well. After a while, it all started to get into her head.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If the app said she slept badly, it’d put a damper on her day, even if she herself disagreed. If she went out drinking with friends the night before, her ring would clock that. If she pushed herself harder at the gym, she’d find herself wondering what her ring would say, if it would notice, if would tell her she did well. After a while, it all started to get into her head.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I think like trying to optimize my body in that way made me feel like I was having less fun in my life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I think like trying to optimize my body in that way made me feel like I was having less fun in my life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Then something happened that forced her to cut ties with the ring for good.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Then something happened that forced her to cut ties with the ring for good.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She lost the charger. I was visiting my parents on the other side of the country and I left it at their house. I was like, I’m not gonna buy a new charger. I’m just gonna go visit my parents and pick up my charger then. And it was funny because I went back home and my charger wasn’t there. And at that point, I think I just, I don’t know, it fizzled out. The novelty wore off and I guess I was, like, wow, I don’t know if this has added to my life significantly. I felt like I wasn’t missing anything.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She lost the charger. I was visiting my parents on the other side of the country and I left it at their house. I was like, I’m not gonna buy a new charger. I’m just gonna go visit my parents and pick up my charger then. And it was funny because I went back home and my charger wasn’t there. And at that point, I think I just, I don’t know, it fizzled out. The novelty wore off and I guess I was, like, wow, I don’t know if this has added to my life significantly. I felt like I wasn’t missing anything.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Morgan likens her experience before, during, and after wearing her Oura ring to this meme that’s popular online. It has three characters in it, all at different stages of enlightenment about wearable trackers. On the far left of the spectrum is this guy who’s a total beginner. He’s never touched a wearable. He thinks the whole idea is stupid. Then in the middle, there’s a guy who has become obsessed with them, kind of like Morgan at the height of her Oura-ring obsession. And he’s like…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oh, I wear the wearables. I know I can’t sleep without my Oura ring. I need to use my Whoop, or I need my Apple Watch to tell me if I slept well. And then on the far right is this guy who’s reached full enlightenment. Like, very sage-looking, hooded figure who’s like, you don’t need a wearable to be happy. These days, Morgan says she feels more like him. I think wearables can be really helpful, but I do kind of feel like that meme sometimes where I’m like, oh, you know, I can trust my body. I can be intuitive. You know, I can, kind of, trust myself to tell when something is feeling off.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Of course, this is just Morgan’s story, but take a look at the Oura Ring Forum and you’ll find similar tales. Still, I was curious if at a large scale these tracking devices are helpful for most people. So I gave Australian sociologist Deborah Lupton a call. She studied health tracking for quite a long time and she gave me a very good scientist answer: kinda, maybe, sometimes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Of course, this is just Morgan’s story, but take a look at the Oura Ring Forum and you’ll find similar tales. Still, I was curious if at a large scale these tracking devices are helpful for most people. So I gave Australian sociologist Deborah Lupton a call. She studied health tracking for quite a long time and she gave me a very good scientist answer: kinda, maybe, sometimes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>I’ve done research where people have said, look I’m bored with self-tracking, I’ve had enough of it, I’m just, you know, it hasn’t helped me, so I’m stopping. I’ve had research findings where people have said, say with chronic health conditions that on the one hand, yes it gives me control over my condition, it makes me feel as I have more control, but on the other hand I’m sick of it. It’s turning my home into a clinic. It’s complicated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>I’ve done research where people have said, look I’m bored with self-tracking, I’ve had enough of it, I’m just, you know, it hasn’t helped me, so I’m stopping. I’ve had research findings where people have said, say with chronic health conditions that on the one hand, yes it gives me control over my condition, it makes me feel as I have more control, but on the other hand I’m sick of it. It’s turning my home into a clinic. It’s complicated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Take some of the recent research on sleep trackers, for instance. One survey from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine says that more than half of adults who use sleep trackers say they’ve changed their sleep habits based on what they’ve learned. So on one hand, tracking can encourage healthy habits. But this effort at sleepmaxing, like so many optimization dreams, can also hurt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Take some of the recent research on sleep trackers, for instance. One survey from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine says that more than half of adults who use sleep trackers say they’ve changed their sleep habits based on what they’ve learned. So on one hand, tracking can encourage healthy habits. But this effort at sleepmaxing, like so many optimization dreams, can also hurt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>In fact, in some ways it can make things worse because we know from sleep studies and studies with people with insomnia that the more you fret and worry about your sleep, the more it can then have this vicious circle where you can’t sleep.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>In fact, in some ways it can make things worse because we know from sleep studies and studies with people with insomnia that the more you fret and worry about your sleep, the more it can then have this vicious circle where you can’t sleep.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Gary’s part, these tracking devices have kind of lost the plot of what the original quantified self-movement was all about, an approach to self-discovery, not a technology or a product.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Gary’s part, these tracking devices have kind of lost the plot of what the original quantified self-movement was all about, an approach to self-discovery, not a technology or a product.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The idea is something like I’m just gonna get the tool and something great is gonna happen. But what did you care about? That question was never answered.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The idea is something like I’m just gonna get the tool and something great is gonna happen. But what did you care about? That question was never answered.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The early days, that first meeting in Pacifica, the thousands of personalized science projects, they all took so much effort, thinking, adjustment, and reflection. Just strapping on an Apple Watch, he’d argue, can’t be a replacement for all that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The early days, that first meeting in Pacifica, the thousands of personalized science projects, they all took so much effort, thinking, adjustment, and reflection. Just strapping on an Apple Watch, he’d argue, can’t be a replacement for all that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think, thinking about what’s going on and learning about what is going on with yourself, it requires active processing, right? Being told what’s happening is not the same thing as learning what’s happening from observation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think, thinking about what’s going on and learning about what is going on with yourself, it requires active processing, right? Being told what’s happening is not the same thing as learning what’s happening from observation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The effort, it turns out, was part of the quest for self-knowledge too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>That whole process led to a kind of deeper insight, which is commercial self-tracking tools, they’re products and products are designed to serve people who have needs, specific needs. They’re fantastic if that’s your goal. What if your goal lies outside that area where all the attention has been focused? Nobody’s gonna make a product for you.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>That whole process led to a kind of deeper insight, which is commercial self-tracking tools, they’re products and products are designed to serve people who have needs, specific needs. They’re fantastic if that’s your goal. What if your goal lies outside that area where all the attention has been focused? Nobody’s gonna make a product for you.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, the movement, if it should be called that, is in a limbo state. One QS member told me that COVID basically killed the last of the meetups, although apparently there are some people trying to pick them back up. Gary says that for anyone wanting to carry on the spirit of quantified self, he has one piece of advice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Don’t start with the data. That’s often a big mistake.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Don’t start with the data. That’s often a big mistake.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Start with the question and work backwards. Ask yourself what it is about yourself you want to learn. Then become your own personal scientist, figuring out how you might answer it, going back to the drawing board again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Start with the question and work backwards. Ask yourself what it is about yourself you want to learn. Then become your own personal scientist, figuring out how you might answer it, going back to the drawing board again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like, scientific practice and a scientific mindset, it belongs to absolutely everybody. And if we want to solve problems, it helps to think about them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. That’s it for today’s deep dive. If you need to open more tabs on the quantified self-movement and the mass adoption of wearable trackers, check out the show notes for some further reading. And if that’s not enough, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you need to close your rings or whatever, well, that’s not my problem. I’m finally free from the wearables. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. That’s it for today’s deep dive. If you need to open more tabs on the quantified self-movement and the mass adoption of wearable trackers, check out the show notes for some further reading. And if that’s not enough, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you need to close your rings or whatever, well, that’s not my problem. I’m finally free from the wearables. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Gabriela Glueck. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor, Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Gabriela Glueck. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor, Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Before Apple Watches, Oura Rings and Fitbits delivered mountains of health data to the masses, a group of obsessive self-tracking enthusiasts in Silicon Valley started a movement with the tagline “self-knowledge through numbers.” This was the Quantified Self. From tracking “urges to take aspirin” to using infrared cameras to keep tabs on sleeping positions while snoring, these eccentric knowledge-seekers built a community around technical expertise and an ethos of self-discovery. Reporter Gabriela Glueck traces what happened when self-tracking went mainstream — and how the data-obsessed idealists watched their movement get swallowed up by corporate tech giants with products to sell.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC7979965838\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://bookpassage.com/book/9781523527922\">The Quantified Self: Learning to Observe\u003c/a> — Gary Wolf, \u003cem>Workman Publishing Company\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/innovation/data-overload-quantified-self-really-future-n189596\">Data Overload: Is the ‘Quantified Self’ Really the Future?\u003c/a> — John Fortt, \u003cem>NBC News\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/kg8-D4h5miE?si=3_PxJY0A6qK4qz6c\">Wearable Health Tech: Helpful Tool Or Health Hype\u003c/a> — @TalkingWithDocs, \u003cem>YouTube\u003c/em> \u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.seattletimes.com/business/the-cutthroat-wearables-battle-is-about-more-than-tracking-your-fitness/\">The cutthroat wearables battle is about more than tracking your fitness\u003c/a> — Brent Crane, \u003cem>The Seattle Times\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.businessinsider.com/wellness-tracking-apps-sleep-score-stress-hurting-health-2026-6\">Wearables, Health-Tracking Apps Are Stressing Users, Causing Harm\u003c/a> — Emily Stewart, \u003cem>Business Insider\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckbrooks/2026/08/25/the-new-world-of-wearables-from-health-monitoring-to-human-augmentation/\">The New World Of Wearables: From Health Monitoring To Human Augmentation\u003c/a> — Chuck Brooks, \u003cem>Forbes\u003c/em>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Follow us on \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\">Instagram\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\">TikTok\u003c/a>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong> Hey Tabbies! We cover a lot on this show, but it’s basically impossible to keep tabs on everything going on online. So if there is a specific topic or story or rabbit hole you’re curious about that we haven’t done a deep dive into yet, you’re in luck! We just launched a listener question form, so you can ask us about internet trends, tech subcultures, or other online oddities you want Close All Tabs to cover! Check it out at KQED.org/closealltabs, and scroll to the bottom of the page. Or, click the link in our show notes. Ok, let’s get to the episode.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a good chance you’re being tracked, by you. Nearly one in three U.S. adults uses a wearable device to track their health and fitness. I’m talking Apple Watches, Oura Rings, Fitbits. Even our phones and cars have trackers. We track our sleep, heart rate, steps, location, behaviors, habits, and so much more. Self-tracking has become the norm but it wasn’t always this way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For much of history, self-tracking was the domain of eccentrics and obsessive academics. They were the freaks to the rest of polite society. Like in the 1600s, Venetian physician, Santorio Santorio built the weighing chair and obsessively tracked his weight. He measured everything he ate and drank, as well as everything that came out of his body. Founding father, Benjamin Franklin, also a meticulous self-tracker. He kept detailed accounts of his daily activities. But these were more than just diary entries. They were detailed charts, a rubric of the 13 virtues he wanted to live up to, logged every day of the week, also known as a habit tracker. And then there’s Buckminster Fuller, the architect, philosopher, inventor, and all-around futurist. From 1917 up until his death in the 1980s, Buckminster Fuller kept an exhaustive archive of his life: newspaper clippings, drawings, blueprints, receipts, and all correspondence. As a lifelong journaler, I aspire to archive my life like that. But again, these were outliers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Then, in the late 2000s, a group of self-tracking enthusiasts started a movement to create and share ways of obsessively collecting data on themselves. It was called the quantified self. Today, we’re exploring the early days of this obscure tech subculture and what changed when tracking went mainstream. And we’ll try to understand whether our mountains of self-track data are actually helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ready? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. This week, I’m passing the mouse and the mic to KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. She is going to lead this deep dive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Thanks, Morgan. I’ll start like you do, by opening a new tab: The Quantified Self Movement. We’re going back to 2007, 2008, a time, technologically speaking, that feels so far from where we are today, you could consider christening it vintage. Apple had just released the first model of something they decided to call the iPhone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple Event]\u003cbr>Voice Over: Apple is going to reinvent the phone.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Lots of people were getting online to join a thing called Facebook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Film The Social Network (2010)] \u003cbr>\u003cem>Mark Zuckerberg character: That’s what the Facebook is going to be about. People are going to log on because after all the cake and watermelon there’s a chance they’re actually going..\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: …to get laid\u003cbr>Mark Zuckerberg character: …meet a girl. Yes.\u003cbr>Eduardo Saverin character: That is really good.\u003c/em>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And the first Kindle even made its debut.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Kindle Commercial] \u003cbr>Voice Over: Now there’s a way to put 80,000 books, newspapers, and blogs right in the palm of your hand.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Complete with Blackberry-esque buttons that made it look more like a giant calculator than a book. Culturally, things were also a buzz. The final installment of Harry Potter had hit bookstores, Obama was about to get elected, and Rihanna was dropping bangers. -.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Rihanna song] \u003cbr>♪ You can stand under my umbrella. You can stand under my umbrella.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This was the backdrop that Gary Wolf found himself in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I was working as a journalist at that time and writing about the cultural impacts of new technologies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Gary was working for Wired Magazine, and he’d been getting interested in a new tech trend – self-tracking. More specifically, he was interested in how technology was allowing people to track their lives in novel and interesting ways. Suddenly, you could do things like input everything you ate into an online calculator to track calories, or clock every single restaurant, coffee shop, and store you went to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The very first popular geolocation systems were just coming out. So Foursquare, which is ancient now, so people were tracking where they had been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And courtesy of 23andMe, you could even spit into a test tube, mail it back to a lab, and log online to find out more about your own DNA. People had begun thinking about themselves and their behaviors as data. It was all enough to make Gary wonder.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>How are we going to use those tools? And what effect were they going to have on how they thought about ourselves?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That question fascinated Gary. It brought together both his love of new technology with his penchant for philosophizing. So he brought the idea to his editor at Wired Magazine, a guy named Kevin Kelly. Basically saying, ‘hey, this seems really interesting. Nobody is talking about it that much. I feel like we should report on it.’ Then they came up with the name for the new beat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>We put up some things on a whiteboard and I put the name “quantified self” on it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Quantified self.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The self is the topic, and the quantified is, okay, what is the effect on the self of having access to data, access to new reasoning capacity, access to observational capacity through sensing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary told me the story about how it all went down, the quantified self, or QS, sounded interesting, but still kind of abstract and theoretical. And maybe the Wired duo were dealing with that same feeling because their next step was all about grounding their questions in the real world, finding people who were doing early self-tracking projects and trying to understand why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>We didn’t know that we would be encountering an already existing DIY culture of knowledge making, but it was there. So where did it come from? How did it get there?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>They decided the best way to get answers would be to bring the stories to them. So they organized a meetup. It was gonna be at Kevin’s house in Pacifica, a coastal bay area town right next to tech’s epicenter. Although they didn’t know what to expect, the turnout was pretty good, about 20 or so people. Being basically right on top of Silicon Valley probably helped them draw a crowd. Anyways, they were all crowded into the space, sitting in an assortment of chairs. All pointed towards the front of the room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting around talking about what we were doing, very informally, and introducing ourselves, and somebody walked in late, and Kevin turned to him, his name was Ka-Ping Yee,, and said, “okay, you came in last, you go first, what are you doing? “\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Instead of offering up a standard introduction, Ka-Ping Yee opened his computer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And showed this detailed time diary of everything he’d done in the last year while he was working on his dissertation in 15-minute increments. And it was so fascinating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After Ka-Ping, other people presented their projects. There was Berkeley psychology professor, Seth Roberts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think he presented something about improving his balance. He was measuring it by standing on one foot. And so he would just start a timer and he would stand on one and he would see how long he could stand on a foot for.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I talked to engineer and businessman Rajiv Mehta, who was at that first meeting, he said the common reaction from people who showed up was shock, shock that there were enough people nerdy enough to care about this sort of thing at all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>And so it was just fantastic that there were other people interested in, just as importantly, to discover the huge range of interests in that tiny little group, which gave us all a sense of, this is much richer than any of us actually had thought.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And among the attendees were people who’d later go on to become famous, like Tim Ferriss, author of “The Four Hour Workweek.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rajiv Mehta: \u003c/strong>He’d been a wrestler in high school and college and so forth and he talked about how, like, he had these detailed records of what he ate and his exercise and so forth. And he made the claim that even today, if he wanted to hit a certain weight that he would be able to reproduce it by going to his old notes and following them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though everyone’s project was different, a kind of unifying undercurrent ran through the group. They were all the type of people who would spend their free time doing a QS project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>People were sort of attracted to this kind of self-tracking practice because they had two interests at the same time. On the one hand, they had a personal question that they were really interested in and they were scientific and technical professionals.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When they had a personal question, it made sense to use the science techie tools they were already familiar with. As Gary tells it,\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Without us really even doing anything, this genre was born.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica Meetup became the first of many, something called the Quantified Self Show and Tell.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like looking back to second grade. And it was really nice and interesting because it wasn’t about pitching anything, it wasn’t about convincing anybody that you had some magic solution, which was very common in the tech world. It was really just about saying what you personally had learned from doing something that you hadn’t necessarily been able to do even a year or two ago with the tools that were available then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Though they didn’t fully know it at the time, the Pacifica meeting was the start of something, something that was about to get big, or at least bigger. To get into that, let’s open a new tab: quantified self goes mainstream.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>After that first meeting in 2008, QS started to generate some buzz. Gary and his Wired editor, Kevin, made a blog for the quantified self as a way to catalog their discoveries and possibly showcase their incredible tagline, “self-knowledge through numbers. “There was also a QS forum and it gained traction as people shared their idiosyncratic projects and experiences online. Gary says this kind of knowledge sharing was a big part of the early community’s ethos. Very much in line with the budding DIY culture of the late 2000s and early 2010s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So people were sharing information on the internet about how to do things that were part really of a professional research repertoire but had started to become available to somewhat technical people to do at home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>QSers began spreading the show-and-tell format nationally and then internationally. One 2014 report points to over 100 QS meetup groups in 30 countries, with about 20,000 overall participants. Clearly, they’d hit upon something that resonated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>It was just a great way to just connect with a community of people all like-minded folks and really just learning from each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob Troia attended one of the early QS meetings in New York City, after hearing about some Bay Area folks who’d started some kind of self-research movement. He was already interested in tracking himself, and the association with Tim Ferriss didn’t hurt either.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>And I showed up one day and watched people get these like 10, 12 minute talks about their own self-experiments, very informal, very casual, but it was very inspirational. And then I was like, wow, there’s actually a lot of people out there just, just like me. I’m not the weird one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bob quickly got deep into QS. He even visited the Bay Area for a QS conference. After that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bob Troia: \u003c/strong>I set up a blog that night like while I was in a hotel room and I just started writing I think my first post and I went and got a domain name quantifiedbob.com\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you talk to more people in the early QS movement, you’ll hear a similar story. They were outcasts, nerds, the weird ones tracking their every move. Here’s Gary again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think people who have really intense scientific and technical interests, many of them are used to being outliers in some way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He says this outsider identity became something like a point of pride and made the meetups that much more important. When you’re doing something that’s so far from the mainstream, community really matters. It’s kind of hard to imagine today since Apple Watches and self-tracking devices like Oura rings, a wearable smart ring, are so popular. But back in the 2010s, this was really niche stuff. And there was another piece of it. Because the technology was less advanced with way more friction. You had to put in a lot of effort to get data on yourself. Instead of just strapping on an Apple Watch and checking your phone, it was more like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Okay I set up an infrared camera and I recorded myself as I slept and tried to figure out if my snoring was connected to my posture.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>To understand just how intensive or well thought out early QS projects were, Gary likes to point to examples, and there are many to choose from. But for the sake of time, we’ll look at one: the story of Jakob Eg Larsen. He’s one of Gary’s friends and co-founder of Quantified Self Copenhagen. His problem? Headaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>He took regular medication for those headaches, painkillers, and he decided that he wanted to really understand whether there was some pattern to his headaches and whether there were some things he could do besides take painkillers that would help him.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Step one for Jakob, figure out how to measure a headache.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>And he found it surprisingly difficult. There are so many apps for recording headaches, but they require you to make a lot of subtle judgments like, ‘okay, my headache started and now I think it’s gone and now it’s back again. Does that count as one headache or two headaches?’\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Gary calls these moments of evaluation “little frictions.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>They’re just demoralizing and they become a bother.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jakob needed to come up with a better metric, narrow his focus, figure out what data he could get that could help him understand his problem. So he decided to track each time he took an aspirin. That’d mean the headache had reached a certain threshold worth noting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So he just focused on observing. He didn’t focus on intervening. And already he started to learn a lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He learned he was taking aspirins more than he thought, and more than was recommended. One side effect of too much aspirin consumption? More headaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>By tracking the aspirins, he sort of adjusted his willingness to sit with the headache a little bit longer before taking the aspirin, and eventually his headaches got better and his aspirin consumption went to zero.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But Jakob wanted to keep up his tracking, so he refined his data metric, this time to the urge to take aspirin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So this was a wonderful example of being able to get really useful empirical data from your daily life, even though you’re not really following any kind of pre-established or vetted protocol that comes to us from biomedicine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This project is a classic example of many early self-tracking efforts. It took a lot of thinking, refining, and all in all, a lot mental work. Also, it didn’t necessarily take fancy technology, just a little persistence. And for many people who were, for lack of a better word, desperate to learn something about themselves, that effort was worth it. Take Swedish engineer Sara Riggare. She’s quite famous in the QS world and has done many self-experiments, including one to help her understand how medication for her Parkinson’s was actually impacting her. Here she is in a short video from Salzburg Global.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip from Salzburg Global Video]\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Sara Riggare: Patients can do a lot for themselves in that I have actually optimized my own medication effect by learning about my individual responses over time.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As she likes to point out, many patients see their neurologist or doctor once or twice a year, maybe for an hour or less. The rest of the year is self-care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>If you have a good medical practitioner, they are gonna use a lot of trial and error with you. They’re gonna ask you, ‘how did that work?’ And you’re getting a better answer about how that worked is very helpful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Projects like Sarah’s and Jacob’s helped reveal the potential of self-investigation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>So there was this feeling that there were new possibilities. They hadn’t been turned into products yet. At those very early meetings, you know, we were just meeting the people who would go on to start Oura Ring and the Fitbit and other tools that were just a few years down the road.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But of course, if an impulse can be had, it can be sold. That’s next, after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 2014, Tim Cook walked onto the Apple stage wearing an Apple Watch, the ad for Apple’s first watch iteration playing on the screen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003cbr>Tim Cook: Apple Watch is the most personal device we’ve ever created.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Because you wear it, he says, they invented new, intimate ways to connect and communicate directly from your wrist.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Clip of Apple’s September 2014 Event] \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Tim Cook: And it’s also a comprehensive health and fitness device.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By 2014, the Fitbit had already been out for a fat minute, and the Oura ring was just around the corner. And as the 2010s climbed to their peak, Gary says something about the QS movement started to shift too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>There’s a way in which those ideas have become very mainstream. And when that happens, you don’t necessarily need a special place to work them through. Like, okay, I’m the only one doing this, I’m using these DIY tools, I need to meet some other people so I don’t feel like I’m crazy to apply scientific methods to my own questions. That stopped really being the case.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>A blog from the time declared the quantified self-movement dead, but many QS enthusiasts online begged to differ. One commentator on the QS forum wrote, It’s a bit dystopian to think that big companies can/should/will replace the basic agency of I want to understand something in my life by handing answers to people. But of course, in some ways, that’s what happened. And the questions that first drew Gary in, ‘how people would use the technology’ and ‘how it would shape their lives’ were no longer being answered by a careful group of self-experimenters, but by everyone else. Which brings us to a new tab: Is all this tracking actually helping us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>These days, wearable tracking devices are everywhere, and they collect health data seamlessly. So what’s the impact of all this automated number crunching? Are we any healthier or happier? Have we all finally achieved self-understanding? And what, if anything, have we lost? To help answer these questions, I’m fast forwarding. From where we left off around 2017, 2018 to present day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The term “obsessive tracker” has now taken on a different meaning. It’s for people obsessed with their Fitbits, not their infrared camera setup that helps them track their posture in relation to snoring. I figured I needed to talk to someone who had at one point been a bit of an obsessive tracker. So I called up the host of this very show, Morgan Sung. She got into the whole thing a couple years back, when she switched her ADHD meds and realized they weren’t really working.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>And I was having like these really weird reactions and like, I was so sweaty and my heart rate was like kind of all over the place and I just like felt kind of sick all the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As one does, Morgan got on Reddit and came across a post from a user recounting a similar experience. That user was wearing an Oura ring when it all happened and was able to collect some data validating their symptoms. So Morgan got a ring.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I was like, for the next two weeks, I’m going to be a little bit miserable, but I can probably at least see if like what I’m feeling is real or maybe I’m just making it up. Cause I think I was, like, oh, maybe, maybe this is purely psychosomatic.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Turns out it was real. Her heart rate and body temperature were spiking dramatically throughout the day. And Morgan says it was kind of reassuring to have what she thought she was feeling confirmed by data.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Especially if you’re a marginalized person in any way who is maybe not often listened to by doctors.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Oura Ring was also giving her insight into things she hadn’t necessarily asked for and offered up mountains of sleep data. Over time, her relationship with the device began to change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>So at first it started as a novelty, and then I think, yeah, it did kind of become a little bit of a compulsion. I don’t think it was, like, obsessive, but, you know, I would, like, wake up in the morning, turn off my alarm, open the app, and check how I slept instead of just thinking, hmm, I slept this way. You know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If the app said she slept badly, it’d put a damper on her day, even if she herself disagreed. If she went out drinking with friends the night before, her ring would clock that. If she pushed herself harder at the gym, she’d find herself wondering what her ring would say, if it would notice, if would tell her she did well. After a while, it all started to get into her head.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I think like trying to optimize my body in that way made me feel like I was having less fun in my life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Then something happened that forced her to cut ties with the ring for good.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>She lost the charger. I was visiting my parents on the other side of the country and I left it at their house. I was like, I’m not gonna buy a new charger. I’m just gonna go visit my parents and pick up my charger then. And it was funny because I went back home and my charger wasn’t there. And at that point, I think I just, I don’t know, it fizzled out. The novelty wore off and I guess I was, like, wow, I don’t know if this has added to my life significantly. I felt like I wasn’t missing anything.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Morgan likens her experience before, during, and after wearing her Oura ring to this meme that’s popular online. It has three characters in it, all at different stages of enlightenment about wearable trackers. On the far left of the spectrum is this guy who’s a total beginner. He’s never touched a wearable. He thinks the whole idea is stupid. Then in the middle, there’s a guy who has become obsessed with them, kind of like Morgan at the height of her Oura-ring obsession. And he’s like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Oh, I wear the wearables. I know I can’t sleep without my Oura ring. I need to use my Whoop, or I need my Apple Watch to tell me if I slept well. And then on the far right is this guy who’s reached full enlightenment. Like, very sage-looking, hooded figure who’s like, you don’t need a wearable to be happy. These days, Morgan says she feels more like him. I think wearables can be really helpful, but I do kind of feel like that meme sometimes where I’m like, oh, you know, I can trust my body. I can be intuitive. You know, I can, kind of, trust myself to tell when something is feeling off.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Of course, this is just Morgan’s story, but take a look at the Oura Ring Forum and you’ll find similar tales. Still, I was curious if at a large scale these tracking devices are helpful for most people. So I gave Australian sociologist Deborah Lupton a call. She studied health tracking for quite a long time and she gave me a very good scientist answer: kinda, maybe, sometimes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>I’ve done research where people have said, look I’m bored with self-tracking, I’ve had enough of it, I’m just, you know, it hasn’t helped me, so I’m stopping. I’ve had research findings where people have said, say with chronic health conditions that on the one hand, yes it gives me control over my condition, it makes me feel as I have more control, but on the other hand I’m sick of it. It’s turning my home into a clinic. It’s complicated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Take some of the recent research on sleep trackers, for instance. One survey from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine says that more than half of adults who use sleep trackers say they’ve changed their sleep habits based on what they’ve learned. So on one hand, tracking can encourage healthy habits. But this effort at sleepmaxing, like so many optimization dreams, can also hurt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deborah Lupton: \u003c/strong>In fact, in some ways it can make things worse because we know from sleep studies and studies with people with insomnia that the more you fret and worry about your sleep, the more it can then have this vicious circle where you can’t sleep.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Gary’s part, these tracking devices have kind of lost the plot of what the original quantified self-movement was all about, an approach to self-discovery, not a technology or a product.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>The idea is something like I’m just gonna get the tool and something great is gonna happen. But what did you care about? That question was never answered.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The early days, that first meeting in Pacifica, the thousands of personalized science projects, they all took so much effort, thinking, adjustment, and reflection. Just strapping on an Apple Watch, he’d argue, can’t be a replacement for all that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>I think, thinking about what’s going on and learning about what is going on with yourself, it requires active processing, right? Being told what’s happening is not the same thing as learning what’s happening from observation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The effort, it turns out, was part of the quest for self-knowledge too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>That whole process led to a kind of deeper insight, which is commercial self-tracking tools, they’re products and products are designed to serve people who have needs, specific needs. They’re fantastic if that’s your goal. What if your goal lies outside that area where all the attention has been focused? Nobody’s gonna make a product for you.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, the movement, if it should be called that, is in a limbo state. One QS member told me that COVID basically killed the last of the meetups, although apparently there are some people trying to pick them back up. Gary says that for anyone wanting to carry on the spirit of quantified self, he has one piece of advice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Don’t start with the data. That’s often a big mistake.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Start with the question and work backwards. Ask yourself what it is about yourself you want to learn. Then become your own personal scientist, figuring out how you might answer it, going back to the drawing board again and again and again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Wolf: \u003c/strong>Like, scientific practice and a scientific mindset, it belongs to absolutely everybody. And if we want to solve problems, it helps to think about them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>It feels like an obvious takeaway, but maybe these days it’s not.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>That was KQED reporter and producer, Gabriela Glueck. That’s it for today’s deep dive. If you need to open more tabs on the quantified self-movement and the mass adoption of wearable trackers, check out the show notes for some further reading. And if that’s not enough, stick around after the credits for some bonus content. And if you need to close your rings or whatever, well, that’s not my problem. I’m finally free from the wearables. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios and is hosted by me, Morgan Sung. This episode was reported by Gabriela Glueck. It was produced by Maya Cueva and edited by Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. The Close All Tabs team also includes editor, Chris Hambrick and audio engineer, Brendan Willard. Additional music by APM. Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Jen Chien is our director of podcasts and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our editor-in-chief.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local. This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by Alex Tran, and recorded on his white Epomaker Hi75 keyboard with Fogruaden red samurai keycaps and gateron milky yellow pro v2 switches. Thanks for listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>I thought Apple Watches, and I still do, and I maintain this, I’m sorry if you get offended, anyone else, I think Apple Watches are very ugly. I’m so sorry to anyone who wears an Apple Watch, but I will not get that tan line. Like, I have yet to see a wearable tracker that isn’t a little bit heinous.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"reveal": {
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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},
"science-friday": {
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