The Wetsuit Changed Surfing — We’ve Got a Berkeley Physicist to Thank for It
It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today
Send Pics? Roblox Wants to Know Your Age
The Pay Phone That Lets San Franciscans ‘Call a Republican’
Lessons for U.S. Netizens from Behind China’s Great Firewall
Kaiser Strike Enters Its Fourth Week
Keeping Venezuelan Culture Alive Through Dance
Love In The Time Of Doom Scrolling
Could San Francisco Really Take Over PG&E?
Player sponsored by
window.__IS_SSR__=true
window.__INITIAL_STATE__={
"attachmentsReducer": {
"audio_0": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_0",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background0.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_1": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_1",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background1.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_2": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_2",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background2.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_3": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_3",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background3.jpg"
}
}
},
"audio_4": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "audio_4",
"imgSizes": {
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/themes/KQED-unified/img/audio_bgs/background4.jpg"
}
}
},
"placeholder": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "placeholder",
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-800x533.jpg",
"width": 800,
"height": 533,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"medium_large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-768x512.jpg",
"width": 768,
"height": 512,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1020x680.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"height": 680,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"fd-lrg": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"fd-med": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1020x680.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"height": 680,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"fd-sm": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-800x533.jpg",
"width": 800,
"height": 533,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"xxsmall": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"xsmall": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"small": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"xlarge": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1020x680.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"height": 680,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1-1920x1280.jpg",
"width": 1920,
"height": 1280,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-32": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 32,
"height": 32,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-50": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 50,
"height": 50,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-64": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 64,
"height": 64,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-96": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 96,
"height": 96,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"guest-author-128": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 128,
"height": 128,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"detail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-1333x1333-1-160x160.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 160,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/KQED-Default-Image-816638274-2000x1333-1.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
}
},
"news_12079093": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12079093",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12079093",
"found": true
},
"title": "HistoryofWetsuit",
"publishDate": 1775667962,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1775668137,
"caption": "Left and right: John S. Foster modeling early wet suit design around 1951. ",
"credit": "UC San Diego Library",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit-1200x675.jpg",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-square": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit-600x600.jpg",
"width": 600,
"height": 600,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12079605": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12079605",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12079605",
"found": true
},
"title": "260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV",
"publishDate": 1776042722,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1776889503,
"caption": "A person takes a photo of Pacifica State Beach outside the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. The Pacifica Taco Bell, just outside of San Francisco, is legendary for its beachfront views and retro architecture. How did a fast food chain end up with such prime real estate? ",
"credit": "Tâm Vũ/KQED",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV-1200x675.jpg",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-square": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV-600x600.jpg",
"width": 600,
"height": 600,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12074528": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12074528",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12074528",
"found": true
},
"title": "CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img",
"publishDate": 1771996229,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 12074525,
"modified": 1771998687,
"caption": "A composite image of Roblox avatars with facial tracking markers overlaid across their faces.",
"credit": "Composite image by Morgan Sung / KQED",
"altTag": "A composite image of animated Roblox characters with facial tracking squares overlaid across their faces. They include human, animal, and Lego characters. The background features a transparent overlay of patterns that resemble a galaxy. The words “CLOSE ALL TABS” appear in pixelated text in the top right hand corner.",
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img-160x90.png",
"width": 160,
"height": 90,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img-1536x864.png",
"width": 1536,
"height": 864,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img-672x372.png",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img-1038x576.png",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img-1200x675.png",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_RobloxAgeVerification_img.png",
"width": 1920,
"height": 1080
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12073052": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12073052",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073052",
"found": true
},
"title": "020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED",
"publishDate": 1770758059,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 12073446,
"modified": 1771021685,
"caption": "Maria, a San Francisco resident, speaks on The Party Line payphone installation outside a storefront at 14th Street and Valencia Street in San Francisco, on Feb. 9, 2026.",
"credit": "Gustavo Hernandez/KQED",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED-1536x1024.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1024,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED-1200x675.jpg",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/020926PHONEBOOTHEXPERIMENT_GH_014-KQED.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1333
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12073646": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12073646",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073646",
"found": true
},
"title": "CFGW_thumbnail",
"publishDate": 1771375776,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 12073645,
"modified": 1771375842,
"caption": "The Great Wall of China with distant mountains, overlaid with binary code and semiconductor patterns.",
"credit": "Photos by Cute Kitten Images, Yuichiro Chino, Eugene Mymrin and fotograzia / Getty Images; composite image by Gabriela Glueck / KQED",
"altTag": "The Great Wall of China winds through lush green mountains with distant peaks in the background. The background features a transparent overlay of patterns made from semiconductors and binary code.",
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"medium": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-2000x1125.png",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1125,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-2000x1125.png",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1125,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-160x90.png",
"width": 160,
"height": 90,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-1536x864.png",
"width": 1536,
"height": 864,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"2048x2048": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-2048x1152.png",
"width": 2048,
"height": 1152,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-672x372.png",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-1038x576.png",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-2000x1125.png",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1125,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail-1200x675.png",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CFGW_thumbnail.png",
"width": 6000,
"height": 3375
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12071095": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12071095",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12071095",
"found": true
},
"title": "260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1",
"publishDate": 1769467001,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1769467030,
"caption": "Workers walk a picket line at Kaiser Oakland Medical Center in Oakland on Jan. 26, 2026.",
"credit": "Martin do Nascimento/KQED",
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1-1536x1025.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1025,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1-1200x675.jpg",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260126-KAISER-STRIKE-BEGINS-MD-06-KQED-3_1.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1334
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12073369": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12073369",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073369",
"found": true
},
"title": "DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED",
"publishDate": 1770935401,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 12073361,
"modified": 1770935401,
"caption": "Carolina Meneses speaks with Zeus Hernandez, 5, during morning lessons at the Dulce Tricolor Venezolano dance group at the Ariel Dance Studio in Campbell, California, on Jan. 25, 2026.",
"credit": null,
"altTag": null,
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED-160x107.jpg",
"width": 160,
"height": 107,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED-1536x1025.jpg",
"width": 1536,
"height": 1025,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED-1200x675.jpg",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/DULCETRICOLOR-22-JL-012526-KQED.jpg",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1334
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_12073113": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_12073113",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073113",
"found": true
},
"title": "CAT_Val_2_9",
"publishDate": 1770768181,
"status": "inherit",
"parent": 12073100,
"modified": 1770768241,
"caption": "On a phone screen, a couple can be seen kissing, with a map behind them and hearts made from location pins.",
"credit": "Photos by J Studios, Malte Mueller and ilbusca / Getty Images; composite image by Gabriela Glueck / KQED",
"altTag": "This collage features a phone screen over a black-and-white map background. On the phone screen, a couple appears to be hugging and kissing. Behind them on the screen is a blue-toned map with hearts formed by two connected location pins. The words “CLOSE ALL TABS” appear in pixelated text in the bottom right hand corner, with a location pin to the right.",
"description": null,
"imgSizes": {
"medium": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-2000x1125.png",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1125,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"large": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-2000x1125.png",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1125,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-160x90.png",
"width": 160,
"height": 90,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"1536x1536": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-1536x864.png",
"width": 1536,
"height": 864,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"2048x2048": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-2048x1152.png",
"width": 2048,
"height": 1152,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-672x372.png",
"width": 672,
"height": 372,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-1038x576.png",
"width": 1038,
"height": 576,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"full-width": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-2000x1125.png",
"width": 2000,
"height": 1125,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"npr-cds-wide": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9-1200x675.png",
"width": 1200,
"height": 675,
"mimeType": "image/png"
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/CAT_Val_2_9.png",
"width": 6000,
"height": 3375
}
},
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
},
"news_11725572": {
"type": "attachments",
"id": "news_11725572",
"meta": {
"index": "attachments_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "11725572",
"found": true
},
"parent": 11725571,
"imgSizes": {
"twentyfourteen-full-width": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-1038x576.jpg",
"width": 1038,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 576
},
"thumbnail": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-160x120.jpg",
"width": 160,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 120
},
"post-thumbnail": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-672x372.jpg",
"width": 672,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 372
},
"kqedFullSize": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-e1549984154270.jpg",
"width": 1920,
"height": 1438
},
"large": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-1020x764.jpg",
"width": 1020,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 764
},
"complete_open_graph": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-1200x899.jpg",
"width": 1200,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 899
},
"guest-author-50": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-50x50.jpg",
"width": 50,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 50
},
"guest-author-96": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-96x96.jpg",
"width": 96,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 96
},
"medium": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-800x599.jpg",
"width": 800,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 599
},
"guest-author-64": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-64x64.jpg",
"width": 64,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 64
},
"guest-author-32": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-32x32.jpg",
"width": 32,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 32
},
"full-width": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-1920x1438.jpg",
"width": 1920,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 1438
},
"detail": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-150x150.jpg",
"width": 150,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 150
},
"guest-author-128": {
"file": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2019/02/ap_19032839240667-c3ea9c8607ab8c46c7dcbc486a7c0f917e3d5a08-128x128.jpg",
"width": 128,
"mimeType": "image/jpeg",
"height": 128
}
},
"publishDate": 1549984022,
"modified": 1549984145,
"caption": "A man walks past a PG&E sign.",
"description": "A man walks past a Pacific Gas",
"title": "A man walks past a Pacific Gas & Electric Co. entrance in Daly City, Calif. After filing for bankruptcy last month, the company will replace half of its board of directors.",
"credit": "Jeff Chiu/AP",
"status": "inherit",
"isLoading": false,
"fetchFailed": false
}
},
"audioPlayerReducer": {
"postId": "stream_live",
"isPaused": true,
"isPlaying": false,
"pfsActive": false,
"pledgeModalIsOpen": true,
"playerDrawerIsOpen": false,
"liveAudioPlayStartedAt": 0,
"liveAudioPlayContext": ""
},
"authorsReducer": {
"gglueck": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11946",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11946",
"found": true
},
"name": "Gabriela Glueck",
"firstName": "Gabriela",
"lastName": "Glueck",
"slug": "gglueck",
"email": "gglueck@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Gabriela Glueck | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/gglueck"
},
"lklivans": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "8648",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "8648",
"found": true
},
"name": "Laura Klivans",
"firstName": "Laura",
"lastName": "Klivans",
"slug": "lklivans",
"email": "lklivans@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news",
"science"
],
"title": "Reporter",
"bio": "Laura Klivans is an award-winning science reporter for KQED News, where she covers climate change with an eye on both groundbreaking progress and gaps in action. She is the former host of KQED's blockbuster video series about tiny, amazing animals, \u003cem>Deep Look\u003c/em>. Her work reaches national audiences through NPR, \u003cem>Here & Now, \u003c/em>PRI, and other major outlets. \r\n\r\nLaura’s won five Northern California Area Emmy Awards for Deep Look and First Place in the Greater Bay Area Journalism Awards for a podcast exploring how one Oakland neighborhood teamed up to reduce planet-heating pollution.\r\n\r\nBeyond her reporting, she hosts and moderates events. In the past, she taught audio storytelling at the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism, led international education programs, worked with immigrants and refugees along the Thai-Burmese border, taught high schoolers sex ed, and was an actress. \r\n\r\nShe's a former UC Berkeley Human Rights Fellow, USC Center for Health Journalism's California Fellow and Coro Fellow in Public Affairs. Laura has a master’s in journalism from UC Berkeley, a master’s in education from Harvard, and an undergraduate degree from Northwestern University.\r\n\r\nShe loves trying to riddle the meaning out of vanity license plates.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/af8e757bb8ce7b7fee6160ba66e37327?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "lauraklivans",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "stateofhealth",
"roles": [
"contributor",
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "science",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Laura Klivans | KQED",
"description": "Reporter",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/af8e757bb8ce7b7fee6160ba66e37327?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/af8e757bb8ce7b7fee6160ba66e37327?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/lklivans"
},
"ecruzguevarra": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "8654",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "8654",
"found": true
},
"name": "Ericka Cruz Guevarra",
"firstName": "Ericka",
"lastName": "Cruz Guevarra",
"slug": "ecruzguevarra",
"email": "ecruzguevarra@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "Producer, The Bay Podcast",
"bio": "Ericka Cruz Guevarra is host of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay\">\u003cem>The Bay\u003c/em>\u003c/a> podcast at KQED. Before host, she was the show’s producer. Her work in that capacity includes a three-part reported series on policing in Vallejo, which won a 2020 excellence in journalism award from the Society of Professional Journalists. Ericka has worked as a breaking news reporter at Oregon Public Broadcasting, helped produce the Code Switch podcast, and was KQED’s inaugural Raul Ramirez Diversity Fund intern. She’s also an alumna of NPR’s Next Generation Radio program. Send her an email if you have strong feelings about whether Fairfield and Suisun City are the Bay. Ericka is represented by SAG-AFTRA.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/25e5ab8d3d53fad2dcc7bb2b5c506b1a?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "NotoriousECG",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"subscriber"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor",
"manage_categories"
]
},
{
"site": "futureofyou",
"roles": [
"subscriber"
]
},
{
"site": "stateofhealth",
"roles": [
"subscriber"
]
},
{
"site": "science",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"subscriber"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Ericka Cruz Guevarra | KQED",
"description": "Producer, The Bay Podcast",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/25e5ab8d3d53fad2dcc7bb2b5c506b1a?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/25e5ab8d3d53fad2dcc7bb2b5c506b1a?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/ecruzguevarra"
},
"fjhabvala": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "8659",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "8659",
"found": true
},
"name": "Farida Jhabvala Romero",
"firstName": "Farida",
"lastName": "Jhabvala Romero",
"slug": "fjhabvala",
"email": "fjhabvala@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": "\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Farida Jhabvala Romero is a Labor Correspondent for KQED. She previously covered immigration. Farida was \u003ca href=\"https://www.ccnma.org/2022-most-influential-latina-journalists\">named\u003c/a> one of the 10 Most Influential Latina Journalists in California in 2022 by the California Chicano News Media Association. Her work has won awards from the Society of Professional Journalists (Northern California), as well as a national and regional Edward M. Murrow Award for the collaborative reporting projects “Dangerous Air” and “Graying California.” \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Before joining KQED, Farida worked as a producer at Radio Bilingüe, a national public radio network. Farida earned her master’s degree in journalism from Stanford University.\u003c/span>",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/c3ab27c5554b67b478f80971e515aa02?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "FaridaJhabvala",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": "https://www.linkedin.com/in/faridajhabvala/",
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "stateofhealth",
"roles": [
"author"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Farida Jhabvala Romero | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/c3ab27c5554b67b478f80971e515aa02?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/c3ab27c5554b67b478f80971e515aa02?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/fjhabvala"
},
"amontecillo": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11649",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11649",
"found": true
},
"name": "Alan Montecillo",
"firstName": "Alan",
"lastName": "Montecillo",
"slug": "amontecillo",
"email": "amontecillo@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": "Alan Montecillo is the senior editor of \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/thebay\">The Bay\u003c/a>, \u003c/em> KQED's local news podcast. Before moving to the Bay Area, he worked as a senior talk show producer for WILL in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois and at Oregon Public Broadcasting in Portland, Oregon. He has won journalism awards from the Society of Professional Journalists Northern California, the Public Media Journalists Association, The Signal Awards, and has also received a regional Edward R. Murrow award. Alan is a Filipino American from Hong Kong and a graduate of Reed College.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d5e4e7a76481969ccba76f4e2b5ccabc?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "alanmontecillo",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor",
"manage_categories"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Alan Montecillo | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d5e4e7a76481969ccba76f4e2b5ccabc?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/d5e4e7a76481969ccba76f4e2b5ccabc?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/amontecillo"
},
"btorres": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11666",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11666",
"found": true
},
"name": "Blanca Torres",
"firstName": "Blanca",
"lastName": "Torres",
"slug": "btorres",
"email": "btorres@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "Producer, Forum",
"bio": "Blanca Torres brings sharp news judgement and keen sense of lively conversation to her work as producer for Forum. She loves producing shows that leave listeners feeling like they heard distinctive voices, learned something new and gained a fresh perspective.\r\n\r\nShe joined KQED in January of 2020 after 16 years of working as a newspaper reporter most recently at the \u003cem>San Francisco Business Times,\u003c/em> where she wrote about real estate and economic development. Before that, she covered a variety of beats including crime, education, retail, workplace, the economy, consumer issues, and small business for the \u003cem>Contra Costa Times, Baltimore Sun\u003c/em> and\u003cem> The Seattle Times\u003c/em>. In addition to reporting, she worked as an editorial writer and columnist for the \u003cem>Seattle Times\u003c/em>. From 2017 to 2020, Blanca won a total of ten awards from the National Association of Real Estate Editors and won first place for land use reporting from the California News Publishers Association two years in a row. She is also a member and former board member for the National Association of Hispanic Journalists.\r\n\r\nA native of the Pacific Northwest, Blanca earned her bachelor's degree from Vanderbilt University in Nashville and a master's in fine arts in creative writing at Mills College. She lives in the East Bay with her family.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/f2322ff46076d337f7ba731ee6068cb1?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "@blancawrites",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "forum",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Blanca Torres | KQED",
"description": "Producer, Forum",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/f2322ff46076d337f7ba731ee6068cb1?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/f2322ff46076d337f7ba731ee6068cb1?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/btorres"
},
"adahlstromeckman": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11785",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11785",
"found": true
},
"name": "Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman",
"firstName": "Azul",
"lastName": "Dahlstrom-Eckman",
"slug": "adahlstromeckman",
"email": "adahlstrom-eckman@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": true,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "Reporter",
"bio": "Azul is a reporter for KQED focusing on transportation and features. He joined KQED in 2021 as an alumna of KALW's Audio Academy radio journalism training program.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9cb750298435add7815a777f55bf1f46845c1386bb8452555c60a7b820b5aba3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": "@zuliemann",
"bluesky": "@azul415.bsky.social",
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "science",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "liveblog",
"roles": [
"author"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman | KQED",
"description": "Reporter",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9cb750298435add7815a777f55bf1f46845c1386bb8452555c60a7b820b5aba3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/9cb750298435add7815a777f55bf1f46845c1386bb8452555c60a7b820b5aba3?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/adahlstromeckman"
},
"jchien": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11809",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11809",
"found": true
},
"name": "Jen Chien",
"firstName": "Jen",
"lastName": "Chien",
"slug": "jchien",
"email": "jchien@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/5c8e9c8fc238c516978f9040dfb459ba?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Jen Chien | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/5c8e9c8fc238c516978f9040dfb459ba?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/5c8e9c8fc238c516978f9040dfb459ba?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/jchien"
},
"jessicakariisa": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11831",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11831",
"found": true
},
"name": "Jessica Kariisa",
"firstName": "Jessica",
"lastName": "Kariisa",
"slug": "jessicakariisa",
"email": "jkariisa@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "Producer, The Bay",
"bio": "Jessica Kariisa is the producer of The Bay. She first joined KQED as an intern for The California Report Magazine, after which she became an on-call producer. She reported a Bay Curious episode on the use of rap lyrics in criminal trials which won a Society of Professional Journalists award in 2023 for Excellence in Features Journalism and the 2023 Signal Award for Best Conversation Starter. She’s worked on podcasts for Snap Judgment and American Public Media. Before embarking on her audio career, she was a music journalist.\r\n\r\nJessica Kariisa is represented by SAG-AFTRA.",
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/4afd355fd24f5515aeab77fd6c72b671?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"author"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor",
"manage_categories"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Jessica Kariisa | KQED",
"description": "Producer, The Bay",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/4afd355fd24f5515aeab77fd6c72b671?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/4afd355fd24f5515aeab77fd6c72b671?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/jessicakariisa"
},
"chambrick": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11832",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11832",
"found": true
},
"name": "Chris Hambrick",
"firstName": "Chris",
"lastName": "Hambrick",
"slug": "chambrick",
"email": "chambrick@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/c4a3663ebbd3a21fa35ef06a1236ce8a?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
},
{
"site": "podcasts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Chris Hambrick | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/c4a3663ebbd3a21fa35ef06a1236ce8a?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/c4a3663ebbd3a21fa35ef06a1236ce8a?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/chambrick"
},
"cegusa": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11869",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11869",
"found": true
},
"name": "Chris Egusa",
"firstName": "Chris",
"lastName": "Egusa",
"slug": "cegusa",
"email": "cegusa@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/86d00b34cb7eeb5247e991f0e20c70c4?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "arts",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Chris Egusa | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/86d00b34cb7eeb5247e991f0e20c70c4?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/86d00b34cb7eeb5247e991f0e20c70c4?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/cegusa"
},
"mcueva": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11943",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11943",
"found": true
},
"name": "Maya Cueva",
"firstName": "Maya",
"lastName": "Cueva",
"slug": "mcueva",
"email": "mcueva@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/26d0967153608e4720f52779f754087a?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Maya Cueva | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/26d0967153608e4720f52779f754087a?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/26d0967153608e4720f52779f754087a?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/mcueva"
},
"msung": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11944",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11944",
"found": true
},
"name": "Morgan Sung",
"firstName": "Morgan",
"lastName": "Sung",
"slug": "msung",
"email": "msung@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [],
"title": "Close All Tabs Host",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/34033b8d232ee6c987ca6f0a1a28f0e5?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {
"title": "Morgan Sung | KQED",
"description": "Close All Tabs Host",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/34033b8d232ee6c987ca6f0a1a28f0e5?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/34033b8d232ee6c987ca6f0a1a28f0e5?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/msung"
}
},
"pagesReducer": {
"author_gglueck": {
"type": "pages",
"id": "11946",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11946",
"score": 6.4147696,
"site": "authors"
},
"name": "Gabriela Glueck",
"firstName": "Gabriela",
"lastName": "Glueck",
"slug": "gglueck",
"email": "gglueck@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": [
"news"
],
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": [
{
"site": "news",
"roles": [
"editor"
]
}
],
"headData": {},
"isLoading": false,
"hasAllInfo": true,
"blocks": [
{
"blockName": "kqed/staff-member",
"attrs": {
"author": {
"type": "authors",
"id": "11946",
"meta": {
"index": "authors_1716337520",
"id": "11946",
"score": 6.4147696
},
"name": "Gabriela Glueck",
"firstName": "Gabriela",
"lastName": "Glueck",
"slug": "gglueck",
"email": "gglueck@kqed.org",
"display_author_email": false,
"staff_mastheads": "[Circular]",
"title": "KQED Contributor",
"bio": null,
"avatar": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twitter": null,
"bluesky": null,
"facebook": null,
"instagram": null,
"linkedin": null,
"sites": "[Circular]",
"headData": {
"title": "Gabriela Glueck | KQED",
"description": "KQED Contributor",
"ogImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g",
"twImgSrc": "https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/097b777fe1ad90e753bb1882b1ae01f3?s=600&d=blank&r=g"
},
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/author/gglueck",
"hasAllInfo": true
}
}
},
{
"blockName": "kqed/post-list",
"attrs": {
"query": "posts?author=11946&authorName=Gabriela Glueck",
"title": "By Gabriela Glueck",
"layout": "cardArticle2",
"className": "wp-block--nomargintop",
"seeMore": true
}
}
]
}
},
"pfsSessionReducer": {},
"postsReducer": {
"stream_live": {
"type": "live",
"id": "stream_live",
"audioUrl": "https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio",
"title": "Live Stream",
"excerpt": "Live Stream information currently unavailable.",
"link": "/radio",
"featImg": "",
"label": {
"name": "KQED Live",
"link": "/"
}
},
"stream_kqedNewscast": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "stream_kqedNewscast",
"audioUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1",
"title": "KQED Newscast",
"featImg": "",
"label": {
"name": "88.5 FM",
"link": "/"
}
},
"news_12084476": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12084476",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12084476",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1779357628000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "the-wetsuit-changed-surfing-weve-got-a-berkeley-physicist-to-thank-for-it",
"title": "The Wetsuit Changed Surfing — We’ve Got a Berkeley Physicist to Thank for It",
"publishDate": 1779357628,
"format": "standard",
"headTitle": "The Wetsuit Changed Surfing — We’ve Got a Berkeley Physicist to Thank for It | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove is located at the northernmost curve of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>’s Ocean Beach. Tucked right below the Cliff House, it was one of the earliest surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The now quintessential California sport was late to arrive in San Francisco, only coming into its own in the 1940s. If you’ve ever dipped your toes in the ocean here, you’ll know why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water temperatures would creep below 50 degrees at times,” longtime surfer Jim Gallagher said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was part of the Kelly’s Cove community. They were a select group, willing to brave frigid waters for the chance at the perfect wave. And in the early days, they did it without wetsuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before neoprene suits were invented, surfers like Gallagher had to rely on their senses to keep them safe. “We became experts in hypothermia,” Gallagher said. Surfers kept sessions short and experimented with creative ways to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Guys tried almost everything,” Gallagher said. People surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079528\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Surfers near Ocean Beach in San Francisco in an undated photograph believed to date to the late 1960s or early 1970s. Photographer unknown. The image is from a collection of photo negatives belonging to Dennis O’Rorke. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079525\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079525 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"850\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2000x664.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-1536x510.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2048x680.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Surfers check out a wetsuit at Kelly’s Cove on Ocean Beach, circa 1970s. Right: Beach goers lie out to enjoy a warm day at Ocean Beach, San Francisco, circa 1970s. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There was a theory that two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear, which was nylon and close-fit, you would have less cloth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That particular hypothesis was debunked quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonfires were the most reliable way to warm up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084172\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084172\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer walks in the water to surf at Ocean Beach in San Francisco on Feb. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Typically, somebody would bring down old tires because tires really hold the heat,” Gallagher said. “It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly 75 years later, everyone at Ocean Beach is wearing a wetsuit, not to mention neoprene hoods, gloves, and booties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How that happened has roots in Kelly’s Cove and a whole lot to do with a Berkeley physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Designing a suit for the military man\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the major challenges for Allied forces during World War II was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on enemy coasts. The shorelines were heavily fortified, rigged with concrete, metal and wood obstacles that could only be dismantled by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On D-Day in 1944, Naval Combat Demolition Units — better known as frogmen — deployed to Omaha Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re just wearing wool sweaters and things like that,” historian Peter Westwick said. “And they suffered terribly; their casualty rate was like 50%.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084194\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084194\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"901\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-160x72.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-1536x692.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Hugh Bradner at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. Right: Hugh Bradner at his desk at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire, doing precision work in cold water for a long time. For the U.S., it was part of a larger wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The U.S. Navy [is] quickly realizing the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference,” Westwick said. “So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Post-war, the Navy turned to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nasonline.org/\">National Academy of Sciences\u003c/a> for help. They convened a panel to tackle the problem and tapped Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner to join the group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After completing his PhD at Caltech, Bradner had worked on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11956611/from-berkeley-to-the-bomb-oppenheimer-before-los-alamos\">Manhattan Project\u003c/a>, helping the United States develop the atomic bomb. Perhaps more importantly, he was an avid diver and waterman.[aside postID=news_12082529 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_004-KQED.jpg']One of his first projects with the panel was trying to design a suit to help divers survive underwater explosions. But he soon realized the foam materials he was working with could help tackle the cold water problem, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was then, Westwick said, that Bradner came up with his fundamental contribution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a concept that flew in the face of accepted knowledge at the time, when the best option for watermen was a dry suit. Dry suits, as the name suggests, keep divers warm by keeping them dry. They’d bundle up in wool underlayers and step into a bulky rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around [in],” Westwick said. Bradner’s “wetsuit” idea wouldn’t depend on layers of wool underwear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You let the water in and then let [the divers’] body warm them up,” Westwick said. “The [suit] material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague. It’s the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other innovation in Bradner’s design was the use of neoprene, a synthetic rubber that became widely available during World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1211\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-1536x930.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Two men in diving gear with small, round raft. These diving suits predate the neoprene wetsuit. Right: John S. Foster modeling wet suit designed by Hugh Bradner around 1953. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Westwick said Bradner started testing his neoprene suit in 1951. “He tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. But Bradner wasn’t interested in becoming a businessman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He says, ‘No, no, I want to preserve my objectivity here,’” Westwick said. “‘I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, Bradner never patented his design. “‘Let’s just throw it out there,” Westwick paraphrased, “and let people run with it.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s exactly what happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The wetsuit goes mainstream\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On the other side of San Francisco Bay — back on foggy Ocean Beach — a local surfer and tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove was working on his own suit. After experimenting with other materials, Jack O’Neill also stumbled across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher, the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach, was friends with O’Neill. “He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things,” Gallagher said. “But he was a really curious sort of guy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084191\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084191\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1021\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-160x82.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-1536x784.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill as a young man wearing a pre-wetsuit in the 1950s. Right: Jack O’Neill and sons Pat and Mike demonstrating Jack’s supersuit he invented between 1970 and 1979. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>O’Neill has long been considered one of the fathers of the wetsuit, along with the Southern California company Body Glove, a distinction both were happy to cultivate. But this line on the \u003ca href=\"https://eu.oneill.com/blogs/all/who-was-jack-oneill\">O’Neill company blog\u003c/a> raises questions about those claims: “Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I reached out to the O’Neill company to get a better understanding of the degree to which O’Neill was aware of Bradner’s discovery, but the company did not respond to my request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, said the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher said the O’Neill suit was a game-changer for surfers at Kelly’s Cove. When they saw the inventor in his neoprene suit, “[they] said, ‘Well, how do I get one?’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll make you one.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was lucky enough to get one of the early models. It was custom in every sense of the word, carefully measured and tailored to his body.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080309\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080309\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gary Silberstein sits in the back of his car next to his surfboard at his home in Santa Cruz on April 14, 2026, before heading out to surf. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"820\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-160x66.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-1536x630.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Gary Silberstein holds a Jack O’Neill wetsuit he has owned since the 1960s. Right: Silberstein surfing at Ocean Beach in the 1960s. \u003ccite>(Left: Beth LaBerge/KQED. Right: Courtesy of Gary Silberstein)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These early suits weren’t lined. Surfers like Kelly’s Cove local Gary Silberstein used cornstarch or talc to help them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silberstein has held on to one of O’Neill’s later models. The neoprene is thick and inflexible by today’s standards, but it still looks warmer than a wool sweater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Silberstein has put the suit through the wringer. “The wetsuit has 18 holes; it’s real leaky and cold,” he said, pointing out the tears. “You can see this has been repaired, but this would still be a functional wetsuit 50 years in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080277\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080277\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill’s first surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco with Jack’s children, Cathy, Mike and Pat, standing in front of shop in 1957. Right: The site of the first Jack O’Neill surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco on April 14, 2026. The shop opened in the early 1950s and later moved to Santa Cruz in the late 1950s. \u003ccite>(Left: Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library. Right: Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1278\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-160x102.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-1536x982.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer stands at Ocean Beach in San Francisco in 1972. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops. He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles and diving headfirst into marketing. Today, O’Neill is one of the biggest surf companies out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why you might know his name, while Bradner has largely been left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the wetsuit changed surfing\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter, and of course at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world,” Silberstein said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed. “I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water,” despite the cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Jack O’Neill used to say, “When you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s a foggy day at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach … just like so many before it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Everything’s gray … cold and windy … but familiar landmarks stick out in the fog … seal rock … the Cliff House …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s the early 1950s … and the waves are roaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Waves crashing\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There are a few surfers paddling out. They’re wearing … shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>When you first went in the water, your fingers would sting and your toes would sting, and that stinging would begin to increase a little bit up your arms and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jim Gallagher was part of a group of surfers who braved Northern California’s frigid waters in the early days of surfing here. A place where ocean temperature stays in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/coastal-water-temperature-guide/all_table.html\">50s\u003c/a> for \u003ca href=\"https://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Ocean-Beach/seatemp\">most\u003c/a> of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> And then after an hour or so, that stinging would abate, and you start feeling good, well, you’re about to die, so you better get out of the water fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> At Ocean Beach, surfers found community and creative ways to keep warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> We became experts on hypothermia …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cu>\u003c/u>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim got into body surfing as a kid and soon found a community of surfers at Kelly’s Cove, at the north end of Ocean Beach. It was one of the earliest board and body surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>A myth went out that somebody named Kelly died on the beach. There was a competing story that was a Foster & Kleiser sign, a big advertisement for Kelly’s tires. So people had been saying, where’s the beach, or go down to see the Kelly sign …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the early days of the sport, people surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly, or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> Guys tried almost everything. There was a theory, two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear was nylon and close fit, you would get have less cloth. And that got debunked pretty quick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The solution was quick surf sessions, maybe ride a few waves and come running back to the beach, to the bonfires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>Typically, somebody would bring down old tires, and because tires really hold the heat. And so you could be standing 5 and 6 feet away from the fire and be quite warmed by that fire. It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>While Kelly’s Cove surfers were doing their best to outsmart the ocean … thousands of miles away, another group was having trouble with cold water too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, the U.S. military learned the hard way that a soldier’s capacity to function in cold water could make or break an invasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>World War II music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For the Allied forces, one of the major challenges of the war was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on heavily fortified enemy coasts\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concrete, metal and wood obstacles could only really be dealt with by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The story of the United States Navy’s frogmen is a story of adventure, of brave men against the enemy and against the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So-called “frogmen” trained in warm-weather Florida, in mild surf … not the kind of conditions you typically find off the coast of France.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The weather is none too good, but the little ships are plugging onto the beaches, bringing enormous support of manpower and weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>On D-Day, they deployed to Omaha Beach. And as historian Peter Westwick tells it, they were pretty poorly equipped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And basically, they’re just wearing kind of like wool sweaters and things like that. And they suffered terribly. Their casualty rate was like 50%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire … doing precision work in cold water for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the US military, the whole war was one big wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The US Navy is quickly realizing, OK, the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference. So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>At the time, if you wanted to stay warm underwater … dry suits were the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And what the dry suit basically did was, as its name suggests, was it kept you dry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The suits were bulky. You’d bundle up in wool layers and then step into a watertight rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even today, many scuba divers use a more advanced version of this technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Americans sometimes used drysuits during the war, they weren’t perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The downside was, you know, you stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>“Suit squeeze” was common, pinching watermen in sensitive places at the most inopportune times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Imagine trying to disarm a bomb underwater while wearing 20 leather jackets stacked on each other. Not exactly practical combat gear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, what’s a Navy to do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the war, the Navy turned to scientists for help. One man in particular seemed like a good bet — Hugh Bradner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>Bradner likes to dive, and has dived in cold water regions before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner got his PhD in physics from Caltech. During World War II, he worked on the Manhattan Project… helping the United States develop the atomic bomb.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After that, he got a job as a professor at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He’s diving, swimming and playing water polo around the Bay Area. So avid kind of waterman, as we would call it now, but also a top-notch physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner joined the project … working first on a different problem … a suit to protect divers from underwater explosions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s tinkering with these foam materials, using them like shock absorbers … and starts wondering if the foam could also help keep divers warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And then he comes in and ends up with the really fundamental contribution to this whole, this whole enterprise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Actually, I do not think it is necessary to have a waterproof suit. It should be possible to obtain adequate warmth by use of a “dead water” space from a furry type of porous material …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>There’s this really kind of central, counterintuitive insight there, before the whole assumption was that if you’re in cold water, the way you keep from getting cold is to keep the water out. The water is cold. If you keep the water out, you will stay warm. Bradner says you let the water in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Let the water in, he thought, and your body would warm it up naturally.\u003cu> \u003c/u>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And the material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>His other big breakthrough was identifying the kind of material needed to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>When he’s looking around for materials to test, here is this material right at hand that the chemical industry is cranking out in great quantities, especially for the U.S. military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The synthetic rubber was invented in the 1930s by chemists at DuPont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, it became an important substitute for rubber, which was hard to come by. Inventors improved on the material, making it better and more widely available … just in time for Bradner to prototype his wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He begins testing this in 195. And he tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. Bradner’s 1951 letter describing his idea is the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But chances are, unless you’re a physicist or history nerd, you probably haven’t heard of Hugh Bradner. That’s because he never patented his design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>So he says, no, no, I want to preserve my kind of objectivity here. I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He was a science guy … not a businessman. And as the thinking went, diving and surfing were destined to remain small niches, not places to make real money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And it’s funny, because some of the other panel members are actually writing Bradner at this time, saying, like, Dude, you’re blowing it. Like you can do both … you can be a businessman. And Brander says, like, no, no… forget it. I’m not going to patent it, and let’s just make it. Let’s just throw it out there and let people run with it, which is what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bradner had no idea that the suit he’d invented would forever change the world of surfing and water sports. More on that when we return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re enjoying stories like this one, consider becoming a member of KQED. We can’t do this work without listener donations, so consider joining the hundreds of thousands of your Bay Area neighbors today. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the invention of the wetsuit, and its Bay Area connection. Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner came up with the idea in 1951, but he never had it patented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It didn’t take long for the novel concept to go mainstream, thanks in part to the ingenuity and marketing prowess of a few California surfing legends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Just a short time after Bradner comes up with his wetsuit, a local tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove stumbled upon a similar idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher — the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach — he was friends with him: a man named Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things, but he was a really curious sort of guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Legend has it that O’Neill experimented with all kinds of interesting suit solutions. But nothing really worked. Until he, like Bradner, came across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He made the neoprene suit, and he made one for himself, went out and came back, and people saw that, and he said, Well, how did I get one? He said, Well, I’ll make you one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Unlike the mainstream wetsuits of today, Jack’s suits were always custom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>And I remember when I went down to get mine, I went to his home. He was still living on Wawona, and his brother Bob was there. He was working for Jack, and you went in and he measured you like a tailor would … almost you know, the length of from your elbow midpoint to your wrist and up to your shoulders, around your waist or chest, arm length, legs, the whole body, and he might make a template and then cut the neoprene to that template and glue it together. And that’s how the first ones were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles … and dove headfirst into marketing. At a 1956 San Francisco trade show, for instance, he dressed up his six kids in little wetsuits and threw them into tubs of ice water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove surfer Gary Silberstein remembers this time well, when the early wetsuit was gaining traction, rudimentary as they were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> They weren’t lined, okay, with any fabric. And … use cornstarch to or talc, something to make them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I met up with Gary at his Santa Cruz home, he pulled an old O’Neill suit out to show me … like most early wetsuits, it’s just a jacket, nothing covering the legs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You are looking at Jack O’Neill. This is his logo, which is now all kind of etched away from years and years of surfing. And it’s a jacket. It’s simply a long sleeved, long sleeve jacket, pretty heavy neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The neoprene was rough … and cracked in places …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>You can see that the stitches hold the arm pieces. These are all pieces of neoprene that had to be cut before they’re stitched together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>And do you remember how much they cost back in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>the day?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>I’m guessing everything’s so much cheaper, probably 35-40 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t be surprised if Gary’s old O’Neill suit ended up in a museum one day. It’s well-preserved evidence of an invention that changed surfing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter… and of course, at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> And so the whole culture, the whole availability of equipment, improved enormously over those years, from, let’s say, 58 to 65 or 64 when I left Kelly’s Cove … Wet suits became very inexpensive and available, and surfboards made of foam were mass produced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Due to his commercial success, O’Neill came to be known as one of the “fathers of the wetsuit.” Body Glove, an early SoCal surf and dive company, is often also given that accolade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bradner, though, was largely left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But about 40 years after walking away from wetsuit development, Bradner began writing letters to try to clarify the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Jack, You have lately been getting much well-deserved publicity for your invention of the surfing wetsuit. You perhaps recall that I was early in the wetsuit too, but not for surfers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>One letter recipient? Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>The enclosed xerox of my June 21, 1951, letter to Larry Marshall has the disclosure that I believe \u003cu>may\u003c/u> (underlined) have been the beginning of it all. I’d be interested to learn whether your wetsuit predates it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sincerely,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hugh Bradner\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner’s copy of O’Neill’s reply, if one existed, isn’t in the archive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there are a lot of other letters. All following a similar thread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Bill, I am enjoying very much your latest book … There is one experience in which I did participate: the wetsuit … We have there an important question of timing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I consider this very important because if your work predates June 21, 1951, I must set about recanting my claim and fame by contacting significant people and widely read publications.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Please set my mind at rest as soon as you can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The letter recipients, all in all, seem to have been less concerned than Bradner about clearing up the timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over Willard Bascom: \u003c/strong>“Dear Hugh … History is what we remember (including you).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My suggestion is that you let all statements stand …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Relax and have a merry Christmas. Kindest, Willard”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Like Hugh Bradner, I did some of my own due diligence … and reached out to O’Neill and Body Glove for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, told me the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The O’Neill company didn’t respond to my request for comment … But they’ve got this line on their company blog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Versions of this neoprene suit are everywhere these days. Now complete with gloves, booties, and a hood for the cold-weather rider. It’s a combination early Ocean Beach surfers could have only dreamed of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because, as Jack O’Neill would say, when you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I want to let you all in on something we’ve been working on behind the scenes for the last few months! A historically-themed gaming experience at San Francisco’s Conservatory of Flowers. It’s like nothing Bay Curious had done before … and now, it’s time to invite you to join us! Come out on June 20 and 21st and explore the history of the Conservatory and the people who created it. Tickets on sale at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">KQED.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be no episode dropping next week because of the Memorial Day holiday. We’ll be back with the freshy fresh on June 4.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "Despite its cold ocean water, the Bay Area played a big role in the invention of the wetsuit. Ocean Beach surfers and a UC Berkeley physicist had a part to play.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1779734103,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": false,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": true,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 177,
"wordCount": 5186
},
"headData": {
"title": "The Wetsuit Changed Surfing — We’ve Got a Berkeley Physicist to Thank for It | KQED",
"description": "Despite its cold ocean water, the Bay Area played a big role in the invention of the wetsuit. Ocean Beach surfers and a UC Berkeley physicist had a part to play.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "The Wetsuit Changed Surfing — We’ve Got a Berkeley Physicist to Thank for It",
"datePublished": "2026-05-21T03:00:28-07:00",
"dateModified": "2026-05-25T11:35:03-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 33520,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"source": "Bay Curious",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious",
"audioUrl": "https://dcs-spotify.megaphone.fm/KQINC8082480685.mp3?key=adb2f43969218d1af4c6ec28762e2983&request_event_id=01e74475-0bb6-445c-b368-b67566d9c608&session_id=01e74475-0bb6-445c-b368-b67566d9c608&timetoken=1779306301_E0A5E3AB55794D8390269C10B0CCF8C0",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12084476",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12084476/the-wetsuit-changed-surfing-weve-got-a-berkeley-physicist-to-thank-for-it",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove is located at the northernmost curve of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>’s Ocean Beach. Tucked right below the Cliff House, it was one of the earliest surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The now quintessential California sport was late to arrive in San Francisco, only coming into its own in the 1940s. If you’ve ever dipped your toes in the ocean here, you’ll know why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water temperatures would creep below 50 degrees at times,” longtime surfer Jim Gallagher said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was part of the Kelly’s Cove community. They were a select group, willing to brave frigid waters for the chance at the perfect wave. And in the early days, they did it without wetsuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before neoprene suits were invented, surfers like Gallagher had to rely on their senses to keep them safe. “We became experts in hypothermia,” Gallagher said. Surfers kept sessions short and experimented with creative ways to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Guys tried almost everything,” Gallagher said. People surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079528\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Surfers near Ocean Beach in San Francisco in an undated photograph believed to date to the late 1960s or early 1970s. Photographer unknown. The image is from a collection of photo negatives belonging to Dennis O’Rorke. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079525\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079525 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"850\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2000x664.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-1536x510.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2048x680.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Surfers check out a wetsuit at Kelly’s Cove on Ocean Beach, circa 1970s. Right: Beach goers lie out to enjoy a warm day at Ocean Beach, San Francisco, circa 1970s. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There was a theory that two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear, which was nylon and close-fit, you would have less cloth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That particular hypothesis was debunked quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonfires were the most reliable way to warm up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084172\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084172\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer walks in the water to surf at Ocean Beach in San Francisco on Feb. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Typically, somebody would bring down old tires because tires really hold the heat,” Gallagher said. “It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly 75 years later, everyone at Ocean Beach is wearing a wetsuit, not to mention neoprene hoods, gloves, and booties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How that happened has roots in Kelly’s Cove and a whole lot to do with a Berkeley physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Designing a suit for the military man\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the major challenges for Allied forces during World War II was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on enemy coasts. The shorelines were heavily fortified, rigged with concrete, metal and wood obstacles that could only be dismantled by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On D-Day in 1944, Naval Combat Demolition Units — better known as frogmen — deployed to Omaha Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re just wearing wool sweaters and things like that,” historian Peter Westwick said. “And they suffered terribly; their casualty rate was like 50%.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084194\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084194\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"901\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-160x72.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-1536x692.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Hugh Bradner at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. Right: Hugh Bradner at his desk at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire, doing precision work in cold water for a long time. For the U.S., it was part of a larger wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The U.S. Navy [is] quickly realizing the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference,” Westwick said. “So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Post-war, the Navy turned to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nasonline.org/\">National Academy of Sciences\u003c/a> for help. They convened a panel to tackle the problem and tapped Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner to join the group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After completing his PhD at Caltech, Bradner had worked on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11956611/from-berkeley-to-the-bomb-oppenheimer-before-los-alamos\">Manhattan Project\u003c/a>, helping the United States develop the atomic bomb. Perhaps more importantly, he was an avid diver and waterman.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "aside",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"postid": "news_12082529",
"hero": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_004-KQED.jpg",
"label": ""
},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One of his first projects with the panel was trying to design a suit to help divers survive underwater explosions. But he soon realized the foam materials he was working with could help tackle the cold water problem, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was then, Westwick said, that Bradner came up with his fundamental contribution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a concept that flew in the face of accepted knowledge at the time, when the best option for watermen was a dry suit. Dry suits, as the name suggests, keep divers warm by keeping them dry. They’d bundle up in wool underlayers and step into a bulky rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around [in],” Westwick said. Bradner’s “wetsuit” idea wouldn’t depend on layers of wool underwear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You let the water in and then let [the divers’] body warm them up,” Westwick said. “The [suit] material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague. It’s the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other innovation in Bradner’s design was the use of neoprene, a synthetic rubber that became widely available during World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1211\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-1536x930.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Two men in diving gear with small, round raft. These diving suits predate the neoprene wetsuit. Right: John S. Foster modeling wet suit designed by Hugh Bradner around 1953. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Westwick said Bradner started testing his neoprene suit in 1951. “He tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. But Bradner wasn’t interested in becoming a businessman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He says, ‘No, no, I want to preserve my objectivity here,’” Westwick said. “‘I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, Bradner never patented his design. “‘Let’s just throw it out there,” Westwick paraphrased, “and let people run with it.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s exactly what happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The wetsuit goes mainstream\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On the other side of San Francisco Bay — back on foggy Ocean Beach — a local surfer and tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove was working on his own suit. After experimenting with other materials, Jack O’Neill also stumbled across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher, the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach, was friends with O’Neill. “He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things,” Gallagher said. “But he was a really curious sort of guy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084191\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084191\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1021\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-160x82.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-1536x784.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill as a young man wearing a pre-wetsuit in the 1950s. Right: Jack O’Neill and sons Pat and Mike demonstrating Jack’s supersuit he invented between 1970 and 1979. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>O’Neill has long been considered one of the fathers of the wetsuit, along with the Southern California company Body Glove, a distinction both were happy to cultivate. But this line on the \u003ca href=\"https://eu.oneill.com/blogs/all/who-was-jack-oneill\">O’Neill company blog\u003c/a> raises questions about those claims: “Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I reached out to the O’Neill company to get a better understanding of the degree to which O’Neill was aware of Bradner’s discovery, but the company did not respond to my request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, said the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher said the O’Neill suit was a game-changer for surfers at Kelly’s Cove. When they saw the inventor in his neoprene suit, “[they] said, ‘Well, how do I get one?’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll make you one.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was lucky enough to get one of the early models. It was custom in every sense of the word, carefully measured and tailored to his body.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080309\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080309\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gary Silberstein sits in the back of his car next to his surfboard at his home in Santa Cruz on April 14, 2026, before heading out to surf. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"820\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-160x66.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-1536x630.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Gary Silberstein holds a Jack O’Neill wetsuit he has owned since the 1960s. Right: Silberstein surfing at Ocean Beach in the 1960s. \u003ccite>(Left: Beth LaBerge/KQED. Right: Courtesy of Gary Silberstein)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These early suits weren’t lined. Surfers like Kelly’s Cove local Gary Silberstein used cornstarch or talc to help them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silberstein has held on to one of O’Neill’s later models. The neoprene is thick and inflexible by today’s standards, but it still looks warmer than a wool sweater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Silberstein has put the suit through the wringer. “The wetsuit has 18 holes; it’s real leaky and cold,” he said, pointing out the tears. “You can see this has been repaired, but this would still be a functional wetsuit 50 years in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080277\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080277\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill’s first surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco with Jack’s children, Cathy, Mike and Pat, standing in front of shop in 1957. Right: The site of the first Jack O’Neill surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco on April 14, 2026. The shop opened in the early 1950s and later moved to Santa Cruz in the late 1950s. \u003ccite>(Left: Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library. Right: Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1278\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-160x102.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-1536x982.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer stands at Ocean Beach in San Francisco in 1972. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops. He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles and diving headfirst into marketing. Today, O’Neill is one of the biggest surf companies out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why you might know his name, while Bradner has largely been left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the wetsuit changed surfing\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter, and of course at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world,” Silberstein said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed. “I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water,” despite the cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Jack O’Neill used to say, “When you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "baycuriousquestion",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": ""
},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s a foggy day at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach … just like so many before it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Everything’s gray … cold and windy … but familiar landmarks stick out in the fog … seal rock … the Cliff House …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s the early 1950s … and the waves are roaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Waves crashing\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There are a few surfers paddling out. They’re wearing … shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>When you first went in the water, your fingers would sting and your toes would sting, and that stinging would begin to increase a little bit up your arms and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jim Gallagher was part of a group of surfers who braved Northern California’s frigid waters in the early days of surfing here. A place where ocean temperature stays in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/coastal-water-temperature-guide/all_table.html\">50s\u003c/a> for \u003ca href=\"https://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Ocean-Beach/seatemp\">most\u003c/a> of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> And then after an hour or so, that stinging would abate, and you start feeling good, well, you’re about to die, so you better get out of the water fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> At Ocean Beach, surfers found community and creative ways to keep warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> We became experts on hypothermia …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cu>\u003c/u>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim got into body surfing as a kid and soon found a community of surfers at Kelly’s Cove, at the north end of Ocean Beach. It was one of the earliest board and body surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>A myth went out that somebody named Kelly died on the beach. There was a competing story that was a Foster & Kleiser sign, a big advertisement for Kelly’s tires. So people had been saying, where’s the beach, or go down to see the Kelly sign …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the early days of the sport, people surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly, or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> Guys tried almost everything. There was a theory, two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear was nylon and close fit, you would get have less cloth. And that got debunked pretty quick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The solution was quick surf sessions, maybe ride a few waves and come running back to the beach, to the bonfires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>Typically, somebody would bring down old tires, and because tires really hold the heat. And so you could be standing 5 and 6 feet away from the fire and be quite warmed by that fire. It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>While Kelly’s Cove surfers were doing their best to outsmart the ocean … thousands of miles away, another group was having trouble with cold water too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, the U.S. military learned the hard way that a soldier’s capacity to function in cold water could make or break an invasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>World War II music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For the Allied forces, one of the major challenges of the war was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on heavily fortified enemy coasts\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concrete, metal and wood obstacles could only really be dealt with by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The story of the United States Navy’s frogmen is a story of adventure, of brave men against the enemy and against the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So-called “frogmen” trained in warm-weather Florida, in mild surf … not the kind of conditions you typically find off the coast of France.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The weather is none too good, but the little ships are plugging onto the beaches, bringing enormous support of manpower and weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>On D-Day, they deployed to Omaha Beach. And as historian Peter Westwick tells it, they were pretty poorly equipped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And basically, they’re just wearing kind of like wool sweaters and things like that. And they suffered terribly. Their casualty rate was like 50%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire … doing precision work in cold water for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the US military, the whole war was one big wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The US Navy is quickly realizing, OK, the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference. So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>At the time, if you wanted to stay warm underwater … dry suits were the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And what the dry suit basically did was, as its name suggests, was it kept you dry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The suits were bulky. You’d bundle up in wool layers and then step into a watertight rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even today, many scuba divers use a more advanced version of this technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Americans sometimes used drysuits during the war, they weren’t perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The downside was, you know, you stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>“Suit squeeze” was common, pinching watermen in sensitive places at the most inopportune times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Imagine trying to disarm a bomb underwater while wearing 20 leather jackets stacked on each other. Not exactly practical combat gear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, what’s a Navy to do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the war, the Navy turned to scientists for help. One man in particular seemed like a good bet — Hugh Bradner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>Bradner likes to dive, and has dived in cold water regions before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner got his PhD in physics from Caltech. During World War II, he worked on the Manhattan Project… helping the United States develop the atomic bomb.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After that, he got a job as a professor at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He’s diving, swimming and playing water polo around the Bay Area. So avid kind of waterman, as we would call it now, but also a top-notch physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner joined the project … working first on a different problem … a suit to protect divers from underwater explosions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s tinkering with these foam materials, using them like shock absorbers … and starts wondering if the foam could also help keep divers warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And then he comes in and ends up with the really fundamental contribution to this whole, this whole enterprise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Actually, I do not think it is necessary to have a waterproof suit. It should be possible to obtain adequate warmth by use of a “dead water” space from a furry type of porous material …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>There’s this really kind of central, counterintuitive insight there, before the whole assumption was that if you’re in cold water, the way you keep from getting cold is to keep the water out. The water is cold. If you keep the water out, you will stay warm. Bradner says you let the water in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Let the water in, he thought, and your body would warm it up naturally.\u003cu> \u003c/u>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And the material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>His other big breakthrough was identifying the kind of material needed to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>When he’s looking around for materials to test, here is this material right at hand that the chemical industry is cranking out in great quantities, especially for the U.S. military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The synthetic rubber was invented in the 1930s by chemists at DuPont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, it became an important substitute for rubber, which was hard to come by. Inventors improved on the material, making it better and more widely available … just in time for Bradner to prototype his wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He begins testing this in 195. And he tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. Bradner’s 1951 letter describing his idea is the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But chances are, unless you’re a physicist or history nerd, you probably haven’t heard of Hugh Bradner. That’s because he never patented his design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>So he says, no, no, I want to preserve my kind of objectivity here. I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He was a science guy … not a businessman. And as the thinking went, diving and surfing were destined to remain small niches, not places to make real money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And it’s funny, because some of the other panel members are actually writing Bradner at this time, saying, like, Dude, you’re blowing it. Like you can do both … you can be a businessman. And Brander says, like, no, no… forget it. I’m not going to patent it, and let’s just make it. Let’s just throw it out there and let people run with it, which is what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bradner had no idea that the suit he’d invented would forever change the world of surfing and water sports. More on that when we return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re enjoying stories like this one, consider becoming a member of KQED. We can’t do this work without listener donations, so consider joining the hundreds of thousands of your Bay Area neighbors today. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the invention of the wetsuit, and its Bay Area connection. Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner came up with the idea in 1951, but he never had it patented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It didn’t take long for the novel concept to go mainstream, thanks in part to the ingenuity and marketing prowess of a few California surfing legends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Just a short time after Bradner comes up with his wetsuit, a local tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove stumbled upon a similar idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher — the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach — he was friends with him: a man named Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things, but he was a really curious sort of guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Legend has it that O’Neill experimented with all kinds of interesting suit solutions. But nothing really worked. Until he, like Bradner, came across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He made the neoprene suit, and he made one for himself, went out and came back, and people saw that, and he said, Well, how did I get one? He said, Well, I’ll make you one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Unlike the mainstream wetsuits of today, Jack’s suits were always custom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>And I remember when I went down to get mine, I went to his home. He was still living on Wawona, and his brother Bob was there. He was working for Jack, and you went in and he measured you like a tailor would … almost you know, the length of from your elbow midpoint to your wrist and up to your shoulders, around your waist or chest, arm length, legs, the whole body, and he might make a template and then cut the neoprene to that template and glue it together. And that’s how the first ones were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles … and dove headfirst into marketing. At a 1956 San Francisco trade show, for instance, he dressed up his six kids in little wetsuits and threw them into tubs of ice water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove surfer Gary Silberstein remembers this time well, when the early wetsuit was gaining traction, rudimentary as they were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> They weren’t lined, okay, with any fabric. And … use cornstarch to or talc, something to make them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I met up with Gary at his Santa Cruz home, he pulled an old O’Neill suit out to show me … like most early wetsuits, it’s just a jacket, nothing covering the legs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You are looking at Jack O’Neill. This is his logo, which is now all kind of etched away from years and years of surfing. And it’s a jacket. It’s simply a long sleeved, long sleeve jacket, pretty heavy neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The neoprene was rough … and cracked in places …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>You can see that the stitches hold the arm pieces. These are all pieces of neoprene that had to be cut before they’re stitched together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>And do you remember how much they cost back in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>the day?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>I’m guessing everything’s so much cheaper, probably 35-40 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t be surprised if Gary’s old O’Neill suit ended up in a museum one day. It’s well-preserved evidence of an invention that changed surfing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter… and of course, at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> And so the whole culture, the whole availability of equipment, improved enormously over those years, from, let’s say, 58 to 65 or 64 when I left Kelly’s Cove … Wet suits became very inexpensive and available, and surfboards made of foam were mass produced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Due to his commercial success, O’Neill came to be known as one of the “fathers of the wetsuit.” Body Glove, an early SoCal surf and dive company, is often also given that accolade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bradner, though, was largely left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But about 40 years after walking away from wetsuit development, Bradner began writing letters to try to clarify the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Jack, You have lately been getting much well-deserved publicity for your invention of the surfing wetsuit. You perhaps recall that I was early in the wetsuit too, but not for surfers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>One letter recipient? Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>The enclosed xerox of my June 21, 1951, letter to Larry Marshall has the disclosure that I believe \u003cu>may\u003c/u> (underlined) have been the beginning of it all. I’d be interested to learn whether your wetsuit predates it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sincerely,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hugh Bradner\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner’s copy of O’Neill’s reply, if one existed, isn’t in the archive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there are a lot of other letters. All following a similar thread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Bill, I am enjoying very much your latest book … There is one experience in which I did participate: the wetsuit … We have there an important question of timing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I consider this very important because if your work predates June 21, 1951, I must set about recanting my claim and fame by contacting significant people and widely read publications.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Please set my mind at rest as soon as you can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The letter recipients, all in all, seem to have been less concerned than Bradner about clearing up the timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over Willard Bascom: \u003c/strong>“Dear Hugh … History is what we remember (including you).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My suggestion is that you let all statements stand …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Relax and have a merry Christmas. Kindest, Willard”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Like Hugh Bradner, I did some of my own due diligence … and reached out to O’Neill and Body Glove for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, told me the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The O’Neill company didn’t respond to my request for comment … But they’ve got this line on their company blog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Versions of this neoprene suit are everywhere these days. Now complete with gloves, booties, and a hood for the cold-weather rider. It’s a combination early Ocean Beach surfers could have only dreamed of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because, as Jack O’Neill would say, when you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I want to let you all in on something we’ve been working on behind the scenes for the last few months! A historically-themed gaming experience at San Francisco’s Conservatory of Flowers. It’s like nothing Bay Curious had done before … and now, it’s time to invite you to join us! Come out on June 20 and 21st and explore the history of the Conservatory and the people who created it. Tickets on sale at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">KQED.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be no episode dropping next week because of the Memorial Day holiday. We’ll be back with the freshy fresh on June 4.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "floatright"
},
"numeric": [
"floatright"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/news/12084476/the-wetsuit-changed-surfing-weve-got-a-berkeley-physicist-to-thank-for-it",
"authors": [
"11946"
],
"programs": [
"news_33523",
"news_34552"
],
"series": [
"news_17986"
],
"categories": [
"news_31795",
"news_28250",
"news_8",
"news_33520"
],
"tags": [
"news_3631",
"news_18426",
"news_3242",
"news_129",
"news_18538",
"news_20397",
"news_22973",
"news_27626",
"news_240",
"news_1071",
"news_18383",
"news_17597"
],
"featImg": "news_12079093",
"label": "source_news_12084476"
},
"news_12080794": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12080794",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12080794",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1776938407000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "its-the-most-beautiful-taco-bell-in-the-world-heres-why-it-could-never-be-built-today",
"title": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today",
"publishDate": 1776938407,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven south from\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> on California Highway 1 towards Pacifica, you know that moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You round a curve, and there it is all of a sudden: the glorious Pacific Ocean. Five minutes ago, you could have been on any highway in America. But now, it’s clear. You’re in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re seeing the ocean to your right, and all these little hamlets located in these small, little valleys on your left,” said Henry Lie, who was born and raised in Pacifica. “And that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods [tucked] into smaller valleys.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon enough, you’ll see Pacifica State Beach stretching out before you. Locals call it Linda Mar beach, but back in the day, it was San Pedro Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s very picturesque, and it just so happens, at the very center is a Taco Bell,” Lie said. “But it’s not a standard Taco Bell. It’s different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079611\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079611\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People enter the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sitting in a prime location nearly touching the sand, this Taco Bell is a little more stately than the average fast-food restaurant. It’s got dark brown wood siding, a deck looking out over the Pacific Ocean and a lot of history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie has always wondered how this Taco Bell ended up with such an incredible spot on the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A restaurant on the beach\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The town we now know as Pacifica was incorporated in 1957, but back in the day, it used to be a collection of distinct coastal communities — places like Sharp Park, Rockaway Beach, and Vallemar. After World War II, the new city served as a bedroom community for San Francisco, home to families and a slower pace of life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local historian Deb Wong said that baby boomers in Pacifica were craving something more than what the sleepy town had to offer. So, in the 1960s, a real estate agent named Bud Wiechers offered up a possible solution: a beachside restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11983182 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Crowds-flee.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Linda Mar beach was a quiet, sandy strip. “Just a really nice beach with a few structures on it,” Wong said. To Pacifica locals, the Wander Inn was the mainstay — its motto says it all: “Wander Inn, Stagger Out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wiechers planned to turn a small lot he owned nearby on Linda Mar beach into an A&W franchise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not everyone was excited by the prospect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The A&W attracted a lot of attention,” Wong said. “And it gave people ideas about businesses that they could build on the beach.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made the Pacifica planning commission wary of the idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were uneasy about private property on the beach and too much building on the beach,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their reservations, the city did eventually grant Wiechers permission to build his restaurant, on the condition that he deed some land to the public to ensure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/744727110/?match=1&terms=A%26W\">opened\u003c/a> in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former A&W employee Nancy Cook Long said the building had a “rustic-looking kind of design.” The exterior was covered in wood siding. A local paper described the intention: “blend with its marine location.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the restaurant, though, \u003cem>different\u003c/em> aesthetic choices had been made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was totally 70s; it was orange and brown,” Pacifica local Kelly Rose said. As a teen, Rose worked at the A&W.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had a brown shag carpet, dark wood paneling; it had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood, and they had a very thick layer of varithane on them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1913px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1913\" height=\"1275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg 1913w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1913px) 100vw, 1913px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers walk out of Taco Bell Cantina with their orders in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rose remembered a long counter — typical of a fast food restaurant — and then two sets of doors. One leads to the parking lot, the other to the beach. The back patio was built on stilts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it,” Cook Long said. ”And that was absolutely unbelievable to a lot of us, like, are you kidding?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even back then — before Taco Bell and internet fame — the restaurant managed to achieve its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the A&W wouldn’t last forever. In 1985, it closed its doors. The reasons for the closure, as reported in a local newspaper at the time, included the owner-operator’s scheduling constraints and plans for the opening of Wendy’s restaurant nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s next for the primo locale?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, locals had lined up at the beachside A&W — but a new chapter was about to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The owner of the San Pedro Beach land on which the A&W Restaurant has stood for many years has bought out the lease and is completing negotiations with another firm which contemplates replacing it with a Taco Bell restaurant,” the \u003cem>Pacifica Tribune\u003c/em> said on July 31, 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12079104 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_019_qed.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That year, the restaurant transitioned to a Taco Bell. For locals who grew up with the A&W, the change was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was really sad about it,” Long said. “Because A&W [was] unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was an institution for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the past 40 years, the Taco Bell here has thrived. Dubbed by news outlets and influencers alike as “‘the world’s most beautiful Taco Bell,”’ it has attracted visitors from around the globe. Taco Bell even lists it on their \u003ca href=\"https://www.tacobell.com/stories/Coolesttacobells\">website\u003c/a> as the number one most beautiful Taco Bell you never knew existed. American surfer Kai Lenny said that every time he surfs at nearby Mavericks, he stops by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hl2M9BpEdg\">Taco Bell for a burrito.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then, in 2019, the Taco Bell became a Cantina, an establishment that can legally sell alcohol. The change has only helped make it more popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie, our question-asker, said it’s one of his go-to spots when friends visit the Bay Area. “I feel like it’s a Bay Area landmark that really only locals know,” Lie said. “It is fun because it’s an interesting quirk of our hometown, and it’s something that makes Pacifica unique.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, it’s the location that does the heavy lifting. You can get a spicy potato soft taco anywhere — but how often can you eat it while watching surfers take on the rolling waves of the Pacific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not very often. The reason? California’s Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Coastal Act and the Taco Bell\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Charles Lester is a coastal policy expert. And when he looks at the Taco Bell, he sees evidence of a very different time in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I see it, I go, oh, that must be from the ‘60s or the ‘70s, without knowing for sure,” Lester said. “It looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coasts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Informational signs at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Around the same time Pacifica locals were raising their concerns about private businesses on public beaches, similar battles were playing out up and down California’s coast. Reactions to the Sea Ranch development and a proposed nuclear plant at Bodega Head, both in Sonoma County, are just two examples.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Places like Malibu were already starting to see this cheek-to-jowl residential development along the beach,” Lester said. “People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway 1 the way they used to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Citizens took their concerns to local and state officials, but Sacramento was slow to respond. The growing unease spurred a grassroots movement that would come to impact California forever. In 1972 — the same year the A&W opened its doors — California voters passed Proposition 20. It established the California Coastal Commission, a body whose mandate is to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The A&W — and by extension the Taco Bell — snuck in before regulations went into effect.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A future hanging in balance\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Lester, the bigger question now is of the building’s future. When I met up with him at his home, he’d come prepared. His 40-inch television screen turned monitor showed an aerial view of Linda Mar beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to look at this 2023 photo because it shows you where the wave run-up was at the time,” Lester points to a line in the sand. “You can see that at some point, right before this photo was taken, the waves were coming up right to the toe of that structure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Families and individuals enjoy a day at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With just two meters of sea level rise, he said, the ocean could push right up against the restaurant regularly. Throw in a storm, and the waves could inundate it. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear — some extreme estimates say in\u003ca href=\"https://scripps.ucsd.edu/research/climate-change-resources/faq-sea-level-rise-and-california\"> 75 years, \u003c/a>but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In my mind, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically,” Lester said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Taco Bell might qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act, Lester said, potentially entitling it to some form of protection. If he could, though, he’d pick it up and move it inland. This form of managed retreat, he said, is our best option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are thinking, given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned, in a lot of places,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, the Pacifica Taco Bell exists as an anomaly. It was built before modern rules, giving it a prime spot on the sand and very little competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whatever you put there is going to be popular,” Wong said. “But the thing is, you can’t put anything else there, and Taco Bell isn’t giving it up, and they are famous now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>We are on Highway One, officially coming off 280 onto Highway One. And oh my gosh, there she is, the mighty Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape: \u003c/strong>And you’re seeing, like the ocean to your right, and all these little like hamlets on your left and and that whole that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods nooked into smaller valleys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck and I are following directions from question asker Henry Lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>We pass neighborhoods like Sharp Park and Rockaway Beach on our way to an iconic Pacifica landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape:\u003c/strong> I love this drive in…. I mean, right now, it’s like, sun soaked, which is actually rare. Usually, I feel like, as you come to Pacifica, you’re like stepping into the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> And so you get further south, and you come across this crest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>Wow! Okay, so we’re passing over where the pier juts out into the ocean, seeing some jagged rocks on the horizon as we make our way toward the beach. Which beach are we going to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> I think it’s technically called Pacifica State Beach, but everyone calls it Linda Mar. And then you notice this one big brown building…and all of a sudden you see that it’s a Taco Bell, on the beach!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This Taco Bell is legendary. Tiktokers can’t resist it, and Bay Area locals are no different. It’s a fast food restaurant like any other… but the views! The weathered wood exterior has an organic feel, blending in with the natural beauty around it. There’s a palm tree right next to the parking lot and the back porch of the restaurant is built on stilts right on the sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio: \u003c/strong>Henry wanted to know more about this Taco Bell. How did it end up on the beach like this? And what’s gonna happen to it in the future? It’s a story that goes beyond Pacifica and asks who are California beaches for? Who gets to use them and how.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though the Taco Bell parking lot is packed today, back in the 1960s and 70s Pacifica was pretty quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>I’d say it was mostly middle-class families who were just starting out post war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Nancy Cook Long grew up here back when it was not a place on most people’s radar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Everybody knew everybody. You played outside, kick the can and freeze tag, and you rode cardboard boxes down the sides of hills. …it was just a little hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beach at Linda Mar, known back in the day as San Pedro beach – was pretty bare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Certainly in high school, people would go hang out at the beach. But before that, it was just, I’m going to say, almost something we took for granted and I don’t think it had anywhere near the popularity for surfing that it does now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There were a few small buildings, but all in all, mostly a stretch of sand. Until that is, a man by the name of “Bud” Wikers got an idea to turn a small oceanside lot he owned into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>He knew that with the baby boomers out there who were demanding something more than what we had in Pacifica at the time, he thought it would be a great idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As local historian Deb Wong tells it, Bud got in touch with A&W, the root beer company, to set up a franchise. Back in the day their restaurants were really popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A&W Advertising Song\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But not everyone in Pacifica was totally into the idea of a restaurant on the beach. Weicher’s plan to build so close to the water sparked a big debate in the community. Who are the beaches for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The restaurant was like an open invitation for others who wish to park their businesses on the beach. So you know, let one build there, and others will follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica planning commission wasn’t that jazzed about people building commercial structures on the beach at all, Deb says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The A&W on the beach was the main example of what could happen if beach property were privately owned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Despite concerns, the commission approved the plan, but required Weichers to deed some strips of land near the building to the public to ensure access and public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment opened in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The outside may have been meant to blend in with the dunes, but the inside made no such concessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>It was totally 70s. It was orange and brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Pacifica local Kelly Rose worked at the restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I can remember it so well. The image of it is burned into my memory banks. It had a shag a brown shag carpet., dark wood paneling. It had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood and they had a very thick layer of varathane on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Kelly remembers a long counter and two sets of glass doors. One led to the parking lot, the other, to the beach. She says the counter was staffed mostly by high school girls, also donning the orange and brown. Slip over aprons paired with triangular head scarves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>When the weather was nice, which wasn’t often, there would be times when every cashier would be working, taking orders. So I imagine it was probably grossing a lot for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beachside location was a big draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it. And I worked there one night and you could see it come out onto the parking lot, out in front. It was crazy. We just couldn’t believe it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even in those pre-internet days, the A&W achieved its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But the A&W didn’t last forever…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover: \u003c/strong>Pacifica Tribune, July 1985 – Beachfront A&W to be replaced by a Taco Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>Well, you know what it is, location, location, location, and that’s it. Whatever you put there is going to be popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For locals like Nancy who grew up with the burger joint, the shift to a Taco Bell was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long:\u003c/strong> I was really sad about it, because A&W is unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was there for a long time. It was an institution for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In 2019, the Taco Bell became a “cantina” and now serves alcohol. When Olivia and I visit, we put that part of the menu to the test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>OK, so we went with the frozen margarita with premium tequila, because that’s how we roll on Bay Curious. We have two potato …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>spicy potato soft tacos…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even on a weekday afternoon, the Taco Bell is packed. There are people waiting to place their orders on the self-service tablets, kids munching tacos and groups hanging out on the back deck enjoying 32 ounce slushy margaritas out of novelty cups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> A yard, 32 ounces? Oh my god, no. Thank you. Regular! (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn why you don’t see many other restaurants on beaches in California. And what sea level rise could mean for this beachside spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, and while we’re on break, maybe take a moment to donate to KQED? It takes just a few minutes and helps keep shows ours running. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about *THAT* Taco Bell in Pacifica – a cantina that’s literally right on the beach. Some people love it, but others have fought hard to prevent places like it from popping up along the California coast. Reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Around the same time Pacificans were raising concerns about the A&W, similar battles were playing out up and down the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway One, the way they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Charles Lester. He worked for the State of California and the California Coastal Commission for twenty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>And places like Malibu were already starting to see kind of this cheek to jowl residential development along the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Efforts to rein in coastal developments were slow going. But out of these local fights, a broader grassroots response was taking shape: the “save our coast” movement. Californians put an initiative on the ballot, and it passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip: \u003c/strong>The passage of Proposition 20 on November the 8th has signaled the beginning of the most ambitious and comprehensive effort ever mounted in this nation and perhaps the world. For the purpose of developing a process for managing coastal zone resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>The reason why we have an initiative is because there was failed efforts in the legislature to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Proposition 20 established the California Coastal Commission to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline. California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip:\u003c/strong> It has taken many hard lessons for us here in California to begin to understand the need for land and marine resource conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Approved by voters in 1972, the proposition didn’t go into effect until 1973. That’s a year after the A&W opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>When I see it I go, oh, that must be from the 60s or the 70s, it looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That old A&W made it onto the beach in the nick of time. The building that would later become the Taco Bell, was grandfathered in. And thanks to prop 20, competition in the beachside fast food scene is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Charles, the bigger question now is of the building’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>It’s a challenging location when you’re that close to the surf zone and you get big storms, the waves are going to come up, and eventually, with sea level rise, you’re going to have some serious issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With just two meters of sea level rise, he says, the ocean would push right up against the restaurant. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear—but some estimates put that at 75 years from now, but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>In my mind, yeah, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time, you know, responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Charles says the Taco Bell would likely qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act. That could make it eligible for a protective structure. Think sea wall or some other form of shoreline protection. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester:\u003c/strong> …. a lot of people are thinking given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned in a lot of places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of inside the Taco Bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price and Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>Mmm. It’s like a lighter churro. It tastes like Cinnamon Toast Crunch.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nGabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Back at the Taco Bell, on this gloriously sunny day, it’s hard to imagine this place not being here. For now though, for as long as it lasts, it’s safe to say it will remain iconic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katie Sprenger, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "The Pacifica Taco Bell, just outside of San Francisco, is legendary for its beachfront views and retro architecture. How did a fast food chain end up with such prime real estate? ",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1776891148,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": false,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": true,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 132,
"wordCount": 4270
},
"headData": {
"title": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today | KQED",
"description": "The Pacifica Taco Bell, just outside of San Francisco, is legendary for its beachfront views and retro architecture. How did a fast food chain end up with such prime real estate? ",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today",
"datePublished": "2026-04-23T03:00:07-07:00",
"dateModified": "2026-04-22T13:52:28-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 19906,
"slug": "environment",
"name": "Environment"
},
"source": "Bay Curious",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious",
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC1842051924.mp3?updated=1776880378",
"sticky": false,
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12080794/its-the-most-beautiful-taco-bell-in-the-world-heres-why-it-could-never-be-built-today",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven south from\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> on California Highway 1 towards Pacifica, you know that moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You round a curve, and there it is all of a sudden: the glorious Pacific Ocean. Five minutes ago, you could have been on any highway in America. But now, it’s clear. You’re in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re seeing the ocean to your right, and all these little hamlets located in these small, little valleys on your left,” said Henry Lie, who was born and raised in Pacifica. “And that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods [tucked] into smaller valleys.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon enough, you’ll see Pacifica State Beach stretching out before you. Locals call it Linda Mar beach, but back in the day, it was San Pedro Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s very picturesque, and it just so happens, at the very center is a Taco Bell,” Lie said. “But it’s not a standard Taco Bell. It’s different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079611\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079611\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People enter the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sitting in a prime location nearly touching the sand, this Taco Bell is a little more stately than the average fast-food restaurant. It’s got dark brown wood siding, a deck looking out over the Pacific Ocean and a lot of history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie has always wondered how this Taco Bell ended up with such an incredible spot on the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A restaurant on the beach\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The town we now know as Pacifica was incorporated in 1957, but back in the day, it used to be a collection of distinct coastal communities — places like Sharp Park, Rockaway Beach, and Vallemar. After World War II, the new city served as a bedroom community for San Francisco, home to families and a slower pace of life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local historian Deb Wong said that baby boomers in Pacifica were craving something more than what the sleepy town had to offer. So, in the 1960s, a real estate agent named Bud Wiechers offered up a possible solution: a beachside restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "aside",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"postid": "news_11983182",
"hero": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Crowds-flee.jpg",
"label": ""
},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Linda Mar beach was a quiet, sandy strip. “Just a really nice beach with a few structures on it,” Wong said. To Pacifica locals, the Wander Inn was the mainstay — its motto says it all: “Wander Inn, Stagger Out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wiechers planned to turn a small lot he owned nearby on Linda Mar beach into an A&W franchise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not everyone was excited by the prospect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The A&W attracted a lot of attention,” Wong said. “And it gave people ideas about businesses that they could build on the beach.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made the Pacifica planning commission wary of the idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were uneasy about private property on the beach and too much building on the beach,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their reservations, the city did eventually grant Wiechers permission to build his restaurant, on the condition that he deed some land to the public to ensure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/744727110/?match=1&terms=A%26W\">opened\u003c/a> in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former A&W employee Nancy Cook Long said the building had a “rustic-looking kind of design.” The exterior was covered in wood siding. A local paper described the intention: “blend with its marine location.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the restaurant, though, \u003cem>different\u003c/em> aesthetic choices had been made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was totally 70s; it was orange and brown,” Pacifica local Kelly Rose said. As a teen, Rose worked at the A&W.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had a brown shag carpet, dark wood paneling; it had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood, and they had a very thick layer of varithane on them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1913px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1913\" height=\"1275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg 1913w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1913px) 100vw, 1913px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers walk out of Taco Bell Cantina with their orders in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rose remembered a long counter — typical of a fast food restaurant — and then two sets of doors. One leads to the parking lot, the other to the beach. The back patio was built on stilts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it,” Cook Long said. ”And that was absolutely unbelievable to a lot of us, like, are you kidding?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even back then — before Taco Bell and internet fame — the restaurant managed to achieve its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the A&W wouldn’t last forever. In 1985, it closed its doors. The reasons for the closure, as reported in a local newspaper at the time, included the owner-operator’s scheduling constraints and plans for the opening of Wendy’s restaurant nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s next for the primo locale?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, locals had lined up at the beachside A&W — but a new chapter was about to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The owner of the San Pedro Beach land on which the A&W Restaurant has stood for many years has bought out the lease and is completing negotiations with another firm which contemplates replacing it with a Taco Bell restaurant,” the \u003cem>Pacifica Tribune\u003c/em> said on July 31, 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "aside",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"postid": "news_12079104",
"hero": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_019_qed.jpg",
"label": ""
},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That year, the restaurant transitioned to a Taco Bell. For locals who grew up with the A&W, the change was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was really sad about it,” Long said. “Because A&W [was] unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was an institution for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the past 40 years, the Taco Bell here has thrived. Dubbed by news outlets and influencers alike as “‘the world’s most beautiful Taco Bell,”’ it has attracted visitors from around the globe. Taco Bell even lists it on their \u003ca href=\"https://www.tacobell.com/stories/Coolesttacobells\">website\u003c/a> as the number one most beautiful Taco Bell you never knew existed. American surfer Kai Lenny said that every time he surfs at nearby Mavericks, he stops by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hl2M9BpEdg\">Taco Bell for a burrito.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then, in 2019, the Taco Bell became a Cantina, an establishment that can legally sell alcohol. The change has only helped make it more popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie, our question-asker, said it’s one of his go-to spots when friends visit the Bay Area. “I feel like it’s a Bay Area landmark that really only locals know,” Lie said. “It is fun because it’s an interesting quirk of our hometown, and it’s something that makes Pacifica unique.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, it’s the location that does the heavy lifting. You can get a spicy potato soft taco anywhere — but how often can you eat it while watching surfers take on the rolling waves of the Pacific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not very often. The reason? California’s Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Coastal Act and the Taco Bell\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Charles Lester is a coastal policy expert. And when he looks at the Taco Bell, he sees evidence of a very different time in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I see it, I go, oh, that must be from the ‘60s or the ‘70s, without knowing for sure,” Lester said. “It looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coasts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Informational signs at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Around the same time Pacifica locals were raising their concerns about private businesses on public beaches, similar battles were playing out up and down California’s coast. Reactions to the Sea Ranch development and a proposed nuclear plant at Bodega Head, both in Sonoma County, are just two examples.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Places like Malibu were already starting to see this cheek-to-jowl residential development along the beach,” Lester said. “People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway 1 the way they used to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Citizens took their concerns to local and state officials, but Sacramento was slow to respond. The growing unease spurred a grassroots movement that would come to impact California forever. In 1972 — the same year the A&W opened its doors — California voters passed Proposition 20. It established the California Coastal Commission, a body whose mandate is to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The A&W — and by extension the Taco Bell — snuck in before regulations went into effect.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A future hanging in balance\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Lester, the bigger question now is of the building’s future. When I met up with him at his home, he’d come prepared. His 40-inch television screen turned monitor showed an aerial view of Linda Mar beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to look at this 2023 photo because it shows you where the wave run-up was at the time,” Lester points to a line in the sand. “You can see that at some point, right before this photo was taken, the waves were coming up right to the toe of that structure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Families and individuals enjoy a day at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With just two meters of sea level rise, he said, the ocean could push right up against the restaurant regularly. Throw in a storm, and the waves could inundate it. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear — some extreme estimates say in\u003ca href=\"https://scripps.ucsd.edu/research/climate-change-resources/faq-sea-level-rise-and-california\"> 75 years, \u003c/a>but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In my mind, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically,” Lester said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Taco Bell might qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act, Lester said, potentially entitling it to some form of protection. If he could, though, he’d pick it up and move it inland. This form of managed retreat, he said, is our best option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are thinking, given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned, in a lot of places,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, the Pacifica Taco Bell exists as an anomaly. It was built before modern rules, giving it a prime spot on the sand and very little competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whatever you put there is going to be popular,” Wong said. “But the thing is, you can’t put anything else there, and Taco Bell isn’t giving it up, and they are famous now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "baycuriousquestion",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": ""
},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>We are on Highway One, officially coming off 280 onto Highway One. And oh my gosh, there she is, the mighty Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape: \u003c/strong>And you’re seeing, like the ocean to your right, and all these little like hamlets on your left and and that whole that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods nooked into smaller valleys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck and I are following directions from question asker Henry Lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>We pass neighborhoods like Sharp Park and Rockaway Beach on our way to an iconic Pacifica landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape:\u003c/strong> I love this drive in…. I mean, right now, it’s like, sun soaked, which is actually rare. Usually, I feel like, as you come to Pacifica, you’re like stepping into the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> And so you get further south, and you come across this crest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>Wow! Okay, so we’re passing over where the pier juts out into the ocean, seeing some jagged rocks on the horizon as we make our way toward the beach. Which beach are we going to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> I think it’s technically called Pacifica State Beach, but everyone calls it Linda Mar. And then you notice this one big brown building…and all of a sudden you see that it’s a Taco Bell, on the beach!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This Taco Bell is legendary. Tiktokers can’t resist it, and Bay Area locals are no different. It’s a fast food restaurant like any other… but the views! The weathered wood exterior has an organic feel, blending in with the natural beauty around it. There’s a palm tree right next to the parking lot and the back porch of the restaurant is built on stilts right on the sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio: \u003c/strong>Henry wanted to know more about this Taco Bell. How did it end up on the beach like this? And what’s gonna happen to it in the future? It’s a story that goes beyond Pacifica and asks who are California beaches for? Who gets to use them and how.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though the Taco Bell parking lot is packed today, back in the 1960s and 70s Pacifica was pretty quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>I’d say it was mostly middle-class families who were just starting out post war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Nancy Cook Long grew up here back when it was not a place on most people’s radar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Everybody knew everybody. You played outside, kick the can and freeze tag, and you rode cardboard boxes down the sides of hills. …it was just a little hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beach at Linda Mar, known back in the day as San Pedro beach – was pretty bare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Certainly in high school, people would go hang out at the beach. But before that, it was just, I’m going to say, almost something we took for granted and I don’t think it had anywhere near the popularity for surfing that it does now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There were a few small buildings, but all in all, mostly a stretch of sand. Until that is, a man by the name of “Bud” Wikers got an idea to turn a small oceanside lot he owned into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>He knew that with the baby boomers out there who were demanding something more than what we had in Pacifica at the time, he thought it would be a great idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As local historian Deb Wong tells it, Bud got in touch with A&W, the root beer company, to set up a franchise. Back in the day their restaurants were really popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A&W Advertising Song\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But not everyone in Pacifica was totally into the idea of a restaurant on the beach. Weicher’s plan to build so close to the water sparked a big debate in the community. Who are the beaches for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The restaurant was like an open invitation for others who wish to park their businesses on the beach. So you know, let one build there, and others will follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica planning commission wasn’t that jazzed about people building commercial structures on the beach at all, Deb says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The A&W on the beach was the main example of what could happen if beach property were privately owned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Despite concerns, the commission approved the plan, but required Weichers to deed some strips of land near the building to the public to ensure access and public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment opened in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The outside may have been meant to blend in with the dunes, but the inside made no such concessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>It was totally 70s. It was orange and brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Pacifica local Kelly Rose worked at the restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I can remember it so well. The image of it is burned into my memory banks. It had a shag a brown shag carpet., dark wood paneling. It had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood and they had a very thick layer of varathane on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Kelly remembers a long counter and two sets of glass doors. One led to the parking lot, the other, to the beach. She says the counter was staffed mostly by high school girls, also donning the orange and brown. Slip over aprons paired with triangular head scarves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>When the weather was nice, which wasn’t often, there would be times when every cashier would be working, taking orders. So I imagine it was probably grossing a lot for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beachside location was a big draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it. And I worked there one night and you could see it come out onto the parking lot, out in front. It was crazy. We just couldn’t believe it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even in those pre-internet days, the A&W achieved its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But the A&W didn’t last forever…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover: \u003c/strong>Pacifica Tribune, July 1985 – Beachfront A&W to be replaced by a Taco Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>Well, you know what it is, location, location, location, and that’s it. Whatever you put there is going to be popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For locals like Nancy who grew up with the burger joint, the shift to a Taco Bell was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long:\u003c/strong> I was really sad about it, because A&W is unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was there for a long time. It was an institution for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In 2019, the Taco Bell became a “cantina” and now serves alcohol. When Olivia and I visit, we put that part of the menu to the test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>OK, so we went with the frozen margarita with premium tequila, because that’s how we roll on Bay Curious. We have two potato …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>spicy potato soft tacos…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even on a weekday afternoon, the Taco Bell is packed. There are people waiting to place their orders on the self-service tablets, kids munching tacos and groups hanging out on the back deck enjoying 32 ounce slushy margaritas out of novelty cups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> A yard, 32 ounces? Oh my god, no. Thank you. Regular! (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn why you don’t see many other restaurants on beaches in California. And what sea level rise could mean for this beachside spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, and while we’re on break, maybe take a moment to donate to KQED? It takes just a few minutes and helps keep shows ours running. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about *THAT* Taco Bell in Pacifica – a cantina that’s literally right on the beach. Some people love it, but others have fought hard to prevent places like it from popping up along the California coast. Reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Around the same time Pacificans were raising concerns about the A&W, similar battles were playing out up and down the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway One, the way they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Charles Lester. He worked for the State of California and the California Coastal Commission for twenty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>And places like Malibu were already starting to see kind of this cheek to jowl residential development along the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Efforts to rein in coastal developments were slow going. But out of these local fights, a broader grassroots response was taking shape: the “save our coast” movement. Californians put an initiative on the ballot, and it passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip: \u003c/strong>The passage of Proposition 20 on November the 8th has signaled the beginning of the most ambitious and comprehensive effort ever mounted in this nation and perhaps the world. For the purpose of developing a process for managing coastal zone resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>The reason why we have an initiative is because there was failed efforts in the legislature to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Proposition 20 established the California Coastal Commission to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline. California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip:\u003c/strong> It has taken many hard lessons for us here in California to begin to understand the need for land and marine resource conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Approved by voters in 1972, the proposition didn’t go into effect until 1973. That’s a year after the A&W opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>When I see it I go, oh, that must be from the 60s or the 70s, it looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That old A&W made it onto the beach in the nick of time. The building that would later become the Taco Bell, was grandfathered in. And thanks to prop 20, competition in the beachside fast food scene is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Charles, the bigger question now is of the building’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>It’s a challenging location when you’re that close to the surf zone and you get big storms, the waves are going to come up, and eventually, with sea level rise, you’re going to have some serious issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With just two meters of sea level rise, he says, the ocean would push right up against the restaurant. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear—but some estimates put that at 75 years from now, but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>In my mind, yeah, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time, you know, responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Charles says the Taco Bell would likely qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act. That could make it eligible for a protective structure. Think sea wall or some other form of shoreline protection. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester:\u003c/strong> …. a lot of people are thinking given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned in a lot of places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of inside the Taco Bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price and Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>Mmm. It’s like a lighter churro. It tastes like Cinnamon Toast Crunch.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nGabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Back at the Taco Bell, on this gloriously sunny day, it’s hard to imagine this place not being here. For now though, for as long as it lasts, it’s safe to say it will remain iconic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katie Sprenger, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "floatright"
},
"numeric": [
"floatright"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/news/12080794/its-the-most-beautiful-taco-bell-in-the-world-heres-why-it-could-never-be-built-today",
"authors": [
"11946"
],
"programs": [
"news_33523",
"news_34552",
"news_28779"
],
"series": [
"news_17986"
],
"categories": [
"news_19906",
"news_8",
"news_33520"
],
"tags": [
"news_1386",
"news_24312",
"news_18426",
"news_18538",
"news_6301",
"news_31573",
"news_27626",
"news_5521"
],
"featImg": "news_12079605",
"label": "source_news_12080794"
},
"news_12074525": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12074525",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12074525",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1772017226000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "send-pics-roblox-wants-to-know-your-age",
"title": "Send Pics? Roblox Wants to Know Your Age",
"publishDate": 1772017226,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Send Pics? Roblox Wants to Know Your Age | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox is one of the most popular gaming platforms for kids, with millions of young gamers playing user-created games. It’s also been heavily criticized for its track record on child safety, and is now facing more than 80 lawsuits alleging child abuse and grooming. In response, the company recently rolled out a new safety measure: AI-powered facial age verification that restricts who players can talk with. The reception from players has been anything but warm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by youth mental health reporter Rachel Hale, who explains how predators operate on the platform, why everyone seems to hate Roblox’s new AI age verification feature, and the incredible lengths some users are willing to go to get around it. And while Roblox says age verification is about improving safety, questions have emerged about its accuracy, digital privacy and how this move impacts the broader push for age verification across the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8728402132\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel Hale, youth mental health reporter at \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2026/01/05/roblox-face-scan-child-safety-features/87970290007/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got an up-close look at Roblox’s new safety feature. Here’s what I found.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachel Hale, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">USA Today \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2025/12/18/roblox-lawsuits-sexual-abuse/87780803007/\">She just wanted to play Roblox with friends. Then the messages from a predator began.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachel Hale\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>USA Today\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://restofworld.org/2026/social-media-age-verification-tools/\">Can social media age verification really protect kids?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rina Chandran\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>Rest Of World\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.engadget.com/gaming/robloxs-age-verification-system-is-reportedly-a-trainwreck-220320016.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox’s age verification system is reportedly a trainwreck\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Will Shanklin, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Engadget \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, a quick heads up: this episode discusses abuse and grooming, which may be triggering for some people, so listen with care. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Youtube User \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Foxboy12\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as a content creator, you can see why all this is really bad because how am I supposed to communicate with my fans if Roblox just doesn’t let me hear what they have to say?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let me explain what’s going on here. This is a Roblox creator who’s complaining about the new Roblox age verification system. It limits interactions between players depending on their age. This creator, and many others, are pretty frustrated about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Youtube User \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Foxboy12\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I won’t be able to chat to them! Because they’ll have no idea what I’m saying because Roblox just filters everything out. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have kids, or nieces or nephews or little neighbors you’ve probably heard of Roblox. If not, let me try to explain just how popular this game is among children. It has 83 million daily users\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and 42% of them are under the age of 13.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it’s not actually a single game, but really a platform with lots of different games, all created with the Roblox’s game engine, Roblox Studio. And it has millions of user-created games, called experiences.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s Dress To Impress, where you get six minutes to put together an outfit based on a theme, and then strut down a runway with other players who vote on the best look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">[\u003cem>Audio clip from Youtube User CakeMiix\u003c/em>]\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>She said she hated my videos and needed to learn how to dress. I decided to copy my hater’s outfits every round, but make them better.\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Or there’s Siberian Coal Mining Simulator, where the only objective is to work the mines, collaborating or competing with other players. And if you don’t meet your quota, the debt collectors might come for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">And then there’s the very popular Steal a Brainrot, which is kind of like capture the flag, but you’re stealing creatures called brainrots. The more rare the brainrot, the more valuable it is. And you can build fortresses to protect your brainrot collection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">Almost all of these games are multiplayer experiences, and revolve around interaction with other players. Here’s the snag: Roblox introduced the new age verification system in select countries late last year, and in January, made it a worldwide requirement. It limits players’ ability to chat with others, based on their Roblox-determined age group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">Here’s another creator pointing out how much quieter Roblox is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">[\u003cem>Audio clip from Youtube User Flamingo\u003c/em>]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan class=\"s1\">We have officially entered the new era of Roblox. We are in the silent era of Roblox. We are in the “shh” era.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox rolled out age checks because the platform does have a real child safety issue on its hands. The company is facing over 80 lawsuits\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> over allegations of child abuse and grooming. The lawsuits allege that Roblox not only markets its games to children, but also enables predators to contact underage users. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But a lot of players aren’t happy with the new system — and it’s not just because they’re siloed by age group. The way Roblox is determining players’ ages raises red flags when it comes to privacy. Many parents aren’t thrilled about the new system, either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into the world of Roblox — and why age checks aren’t the perfect solution to child safety issues.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we get into the privacy questions, we need to understand the Roblox landscape. Let’s open a new tab: The Roblox predator problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel Hale is a USA Today reporter who covers youth mental health. She’s been reporting on child safety across digital platforms, and has been following the Roblox lawsuits. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s spoken to several parents who allege that their children were groomed by predators they met on the platform. Here’s Rachel, telling the story of Amie and her 13-year-old daughter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In Amie’s case as well as in many others, the Predator initially reached out on Roblox and then moved the interactions and messaging to another platform. In Amie’s specific case, you know, you had someone who asked. Something that is irresistible to, to kids all around the world, “Do you wanna make Robux?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robux is the in-game currency that costs real money. Like a lot of freemium games, Roblox runs on micro-transactions; you get the base experience, but with Robux, you can buy cool outfits, use unique weapons, and get game passes that grant perks like accessing special areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the predator reached out to Amie’s daughter through Roblox’s in-game chat feature, and told her that she could make Robux by playing a game. They told her that in order to play, they had to move to Discord. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They first asked Amie’s daughter to hold up two fingers to verify before they started the game, and then asked Amie’s daughter to send sexually explicit videos and images. But it didn’t stop there. It turned into, you know, what many people would classify as grooming. If Amie’s daughter went more than a few hours without contacting the predator, they would message, I’ve missed you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He would shower her with affection saying, “I love you so much,” or sending her sexually explicit content of himself. “I would never leave you,” messages like that. It was relentless. And when Amie discovered what was happening to her daughter, she discontinued her daughter’s use of both Roblox and Discord and reported the username to the FBI. And this is a situation that has happened countless times and that I spoke with numerous parents about, um, with stories that sound really similar to Amie’s.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is such a common problem that some creators have taken it upon themselves to confront predators. Like this one YouTuber, who goes by Schlep. He’s conducted Roblox sting operations, where he and other creators pretend to be minors, collect incriminating explicit messages from predators, lure them into in-person meetings and then alert police about it. To date, he’s documented six arrests in his YouTube videos.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio from the account of Youtube user Schlep\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was arrested and charged with three felony counts related to illicit material . . . I’m so proud to see our efforts at stopping predators finally make an impact beyond the screen… I don’t hate Roblox. I love it. And that’s why I care so much about this problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Schlep is kind of like a modern day version of Chris Hansen and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To Catch A Predator.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Schlep was even referenced in one of the child safety lawsuits against Roblox. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bad actors exist on all online platforms, but child predation is especially prevalent on Roblox. Part of it is sheer volume because it’s so popular with kids — again, more than 40% of users are under 13.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But other games are also popular with minors, like Fortnite or Minecraft. What makes Roblox different? Here’s Rachel again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a combination of the business model and the steps a company is willing to take towards safety, even if that could potentially harm their usage patterns and profits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Roblox uses a free model, some people might call it a freemium model. The game is free to download and play, and the company makes their money from players spending Robux. So from their in-game interactions. And the more time a user spends on the platform, the more likely they are to spend Robux and generate, um, money for the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Minecraft, on the other hand, is a paid model and you buy it upfront, so there’s less incentive to push user interaction with each other. Take another example, like Fortnite. It’s got a similar freemium model to Roblox, but some safety advocates that I spoke with have credited Fortnite for choosing to implement it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kid protective features, like more options for private or controlled play zones. Roblox does have some of those same features, including parent controls, but in Fortnite, kids are usually playing with a smaller group, sometimes with their preexisting friends as opposed to roaming in these social spaces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Roblox is really set up based on having people, um, move through these different experiences and interacting with strangers in the public.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How has Roblox responded to this issue? How are people criticizing the way that they’ve responded?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I visited Roblox’s headquarters in San Mateo, California in December, to ask them about the steps that they’ve taken following these lawsuits and the criticism that they’ve received, and they emphasized that they take their child safety very seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The biggest step that they’ve taken, uh, in this area is implementing a new facial age verification feature. It started rolling out in November in select markets and became mandatory on January 7th for anyone looking to use the chat bar feature. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the way that it works is that once you open the app, if you wanna go to the chat bar, Roblox will now prompt any users past, present, anyone who’s on the platform to decide if they would like to go through facial age estimation or if they would like to not use the chat bar feature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you choose to continue, it uses AI to take a scan of your face and estimates your age. Roblox, as executives told me that their data shows that it can estimate an age within two years of accuracy. And after that, users are placed into one of six different age groups. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They said that they were working on this feature and they wouldn’t necessarily portray it as like directly a response to these lawsuits, but of course it is in response to, um, the child safety issues that they’ve had. And they’ve really tried to emphasize that they’re the one of the largest platforms that has implemented this type of age verification. So that’s really the biggest step that they’ve taken in conjunction with their parental controls, which they say can make a big difference in how users, um, are, are engaging on the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Roblos’s new features, the age checks to chat now look like this and, bear with me here, you’re about to hear a lot of numbers. So if your child is under 9 years old, they can’t talk to anyone 13 or older. Kids between 10 and 13 can’t message anyone over 16. Users in the 13 to 15 group can’t chat with anyone over 17. But users who are 16 to 17 can’t chat with anyone under 13, or over 21. If you’re 18-20, you can chat with anyone over the age of 16, but not under. And if you’re over 21, you can only chat with users who are over 18. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re overwhelmed right now, I don’t blame you. Roblox’s age-gating is pretty granular. It’s supposed to imitate the clusters of age groups that would interact in real life. Like, it’s appropriate for a 14 year old and 16 year old to hang out and be friends, but it would raise red flags if it was a 12 year old and a 19 year old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that it is confusing for players. The way that Roblox has described it is that these groups are supposed to kind of mimic real life groups that you would see at like, a lunch table or you know, on sporting teams. So the idea is that users would be playing alongside other users who are of similar ages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI estimation works by analyzing the user’s face for physiological markers that correlate with a specific age. A person’s face changes the most when they’re young, so it’s easier for the system to estimate someone’s age when they’re, say, between 6 and 10 years old as opposed to 40 or 45. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once you go through the facial age estimation, you’re able to upload a photo of an ID if you, if it was incorrect, um, in estimating your age. But you know, as they’ve started to roll it out, there’s been a lot of talk about it online, especially in online communities like the r/roblox subreddit. So we’ve been able to already start to see some of the feedback there from current users of Roblox and I think that what users are concerned about is those cases where the facial age estimation feature is inaccurate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then you might have a user who’s 12, who is able to talk with 17 year olds or 18 year olds if their age is inaccurately estimated as 16. So these of course, are more the outlier cases, but there are enough of them that people have criticized it pretty heavily online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to get into the community backlash against Roblox’s age checks in a new tab … after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back! Roblox rolled out a new age verification system, but it can be inaccurate and now, Roblox players and their parents are raising concerns over it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab: Did Roblox Age Verification flop?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in December, USA Today reporter Rachel Hale flew out from New York to visit the Roblox headquarters in San Mateo, California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when I was there, I was able to meet with multiple Roblox executives, including Matt Kaufman, who is the chief Safety Officer there, then Elizabeth Milo, Roblox Global Head of Parental Advocacy, and both of those people walked me through how they think about, uh, safety on the app. After we did our standard interviews, we did a demo of the facial age estimation feature and of the parental control features with two of the safety leads who had helped put together these features. So I was able to kind of pick their brains about how the AI was going to work in the facial age estimation feature. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we walked through it with a phone and an iPad so that I could see what it would be like for a parent who had kids of two different ages, and I could see how that would change users experiences playing on the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what did you expect going in? I know you tried the feature ahead of time and it wasn’t quite right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will say I was disappointed with the features accuracy, because Roblox had emphasized in prior press conferences that it would be within two years of accuracy. And because I’m under 25, so I’m still in that younger range that they said the accuracy is usually within those two years. I was hoping that it would get my age within one to two years. But when I did the demo, I tried it the night before in my hotel room, not wearing any makeup, you know, with kind of different lighting behind me. And then I did it again the next day at their office wearing a full face of makeup with much brighter, better lighting on me. I’m 24, and both times it estimated my age as 18 to 20.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I found that that didn’t make a difference. I have seen users online talk about things like, how facial hair, things like that, how that might impact what age you’re estimated as. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some players have complained that they were incorrectly placed in older age groups because they went through puberty earlier than their peers. And others have complained that they were incorrectly placed in younger age groups because they just look younger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing that I’ve seen anecdotally online in some of these same online forums, um, or in direct messages to me, are concerns about kids who might have different developmental markers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So maybe someone who’s, you know, has developmental disability that might change the way that they look and that’s a valid concern. I think that that exists across platforms with age verification. So that’s not specific to roblox. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you spend some time, like you said, in Roblox Communities online, a lot of users are really unhappy with this change. Their concern is that it hasn’t actually worked to solve child safety because of issues with accuracy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen parents who are concerned because their kids who are maybe 12 years old have used the feature and it’s estimated them as 15 and now they’re able to be on the platform without the parental controls. And it’s very hard for the parent to kind of roll that back, um, unless the kid is willing to cooperate with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, YouTube and TikTok are brimming with tutorials for bypassing the age check system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Snippet from How to unlock chat in Roblox video\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this video, I’m going to be showing you exactly how you can verify your age on Roblox and unlock any Roblox feature you want, including the chat. And this works for all ages.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The facial recognition system isn’t that difficult to trick, either. Users have managed to pass as adults by drawing fake mustaches on themselves, or by caking on really heavy, Jersey Shore-type makeup. They’ve also gotten around it by scanning videos of other people’s faces. On YouTube, there’s this video from 12 years ago, of a woman slowly turning her face left and right, for artists to use as a figure drawing reference.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, that video has more than half a million views … and nearly all of the 800 comments are from Roblox users who’ve used her face to pass the age check. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel isn’t surprised at how far users are going to pass as adults. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I wish I could say that I was, but I think when you have a platform this big, you know, there are going to be people who will go to any links, uh, especially just at scale with how many users there are. So taken in isolation it does feel, um, pretty alarming, but put into context, it makes sense with what we know about Roblox.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve also seen people start to try to work around the chat feature as a whole by making custom avatars that might say their discord username or username for another platform, which then circumvents the, the whole purpose of the safety in the feature and the idea of getting people to keep the chat in game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve also even seen things as extreme as people talking about someone selling an underage account on eBay (this was later taken down.) So we’ve definitely seen Roblox users start to try to either circumvent the system, uh, and who have been extreme in their criticisms that it hasn’t really been accurate in solving the safety issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI facial age estimator seems pretty concerning to a lot of people, especially parents. Can you explain why this technology is so controversial?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So part of the reason that the artificial intelligence is controversial is because people have data privacy concerns. The artificial intelligence here is used to estimate the user’s age after the face scan and the picture is deleted afterwards. Roblox outsources this to a company called Persona and says that users can trust that their picture is deleted afterwards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some families that I spoke with, and you can also find this on Reddit and online communities, people have concerns because of issues with similar features on other platforms. For example, in October of last year, the messaging platform Discord had hackers who compromised five CA, their third party vendor that they used for age verification, and stole nearly 70,000 images of government issued IDs in Australia and the UK.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even though Roblox says that you can trust that artificial intelligence, um, I think that people have some concerns because of what’s happened on other platforms with similar features.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that parents who are tuned in enough to what’s happening on Roblox are already having conversations with their children about digital safety. Um, I think that the real issue is kids whose parents aren’t tuned in, and so they’re probably making decisions about whether or not to use the feature without parental input.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think that a lot of parents who are already tuned into Roblox and are closely following their children’s gameplay, some of those parents have made the decision to not use the feature and to instead decide that their child won’t use the chat bar feature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox’s age checks are an attempt to prevent predators from interacting with children, but that’s not the only reason the platform rolled it out. It’s also to comply with the United Kingdom’s Online Safety Act, which went into effect last year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This law requires all internet users to be at least 18 to access quote, “harmful content.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Certain Roblox experiences that are more graphic or have more mature themes are rated as “Restricted.” They’re for players who are at least 18. Now, only players who have verified their age with Roblox can access this content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Harmful content” is a very broad umbrella — and now, many websites and social platforms are enforcing age checks like Roblox. Efforts to age-gate the internet are sweeping Europe, Australia, and here, in the US, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But like we’ve explored in this deep dive, it’s not going great for Roblox. Surely there are other ways to protect children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have time to open one more tab. Right?: Is Roblox’s method the future of age verification?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox CEO Dave Baszucki isn’t exactly helping the situation, either. Late last year, he went on the New York Times tech podcast Hard Fork to talk about the age-gating policy. Here’s how he responded to a question about Roblox’s predator problem: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hard Fork Podcast clip\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David Baszucki: We think of it not necessarily just as a problem but an opportunity as well. How do we allow young people to build, communicate and hang out together? How do we build the future of communication at the same time? So we, you know, we’ve been, I think, in a good way working on this ever since we started.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s Rachel again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, there’s been a lot of criticism toward Roblox. And as you’ll see in that New York Times interview, you know, uh, a lot of head employees at the company, it’s really tense when they’re asked about it because they know that they’re pushed between a rock and a hard place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, uh, Dave and other top employees there who are in charge of safety, like Matt Kaufman, have faced a lot of personal and direct criticism over the ways that they’ve led child safety on the app. And I think it’s an issue that Roblox will continue to have to deal with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In some ways Roblox seems to be in a real lose-lose situation. Um, I mean, they had to respond to the predator issue and the lawsuits, and yet the solution that they’ve come up with has been received incredibly poorly. How do you think the company views the situation that they’re currently in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that question is what they’re going to have to think about this year. And ultimately if more of these lawsuits continue to come out. I think that they will have to consider more heavily if they want to continue to prioritize profits or if they would move to implement safety features that would maybe take a hit toward the number of users on the platform.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that they’re going to have to think about that decision much more heavily this year than they have in the past as these lawsuits have continued to gain a lot more publicity and traction. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other two things that the company has faced a lot of scrutiny over that I think they’ll need to consider in line with this, um, is their removal of so-called vigilantes from the platform who, you know, call themselves predator hunters. Roblox faced a lot of scrutiny over their removal of these vigilantes, uh, without more efforts put toward the actual child safety issues on the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s also been a push for some legal cases to be resolved via arbitration instead of in public court. And Roblox has faced a lot of criticism over not having these cases play out more publicly, uh, because a lot of safety advocates and families feel that that’s what would be in the best interest for, for the public in terms of transparency and accountability. So I think that Roblox is going to have to really think about those different things in line with the child safety this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are there any other solutions that have been suggested?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of people have suggested that Roblox remove the chat feature altogether for in-game. How plausible this is? I’m not sure. Um, I think that that would change the entire nature of the game. Other people have brought up that Roblox could implement more options for private play among friends that you already know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The way that that works right now is through something called trusted users. So you could play with someone who’s not your exact age, but who through parental controls has been listed as a trusted user, like an older cousin or an aunt or uncle, that type of thing. Um, but some safety advocates have brought up that it would be beneficial for Roblox to put more efforts into those private play places, uh, or groups as opposed to putting so much emphasis on the public gameplay, uh, between each other.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The issue there, again, is it comes back to profits and the way that the platform is set up and because the profits are based off of users, um, generating new games or experiences and using those in-game robux. The incentive is definitely to keep people playing with each other in a public space and moving through as many new games as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that Roblox will have to make some decisions about their priorities in terms of, um, profits compared to child safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As you mentioned like, earlier in our interview, Roblox really sees themselves as pioneering this technology. Do you see other companies like Fortnite, like Minecraft, um, I guess Club Penguin, if it was still around by like, also adopting a kind of facial recognition, age verification?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that based on how Roblox’s rollout has gone, places who may have been looking into this will probably take a longer pause to think about the best way to implement it. I do think a lot of the concerns come down to AI and how accurate it is, and even though Roblox has emphasized that they’ve been the first to do this and that they’ve been leading the way. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox also has a much larger issue with child predators than Minecraft or Fortnite does. So I don’t necessarily see other platforms moving to implement this right away as a result of Roblox. If anything, I think people are probably looking at how Roblox’s user database has responded and thinking about that and how they’re shaping their responses to safety on their own platforms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This situation with Roblox especially, it comes at a time when age verification is being pushed all over the internet, um, often through legislation in Australia and the UK, soon enough probably here in the U.S. How does that impact the larger conversation around this issue and the way that other gaming platforms will probably also have to, in some way, age-gate their content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that it continues to make it so that it’s a norm of these platforms. You know, um, five years ago, hardly any platform had an age verification feature. We’re seeing the same thing with Beyond Games, things like sports betting platforms, you know. We’re seeing it go from a user-oriented age verification, where it’s just you’re putting in an email and checking and it’s very easy to just check the box they’re over 13, to an actual form of verification. What that verification looks like likely will differ between platforms, but I do think that Roblox implementing this feature has contributed to that wider norm of age verification being a more common practice on online platforms.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a youth mental health reporter, what are you keeping your eye on when it comes to this situation?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that right now I am really looking at how not just the general community is responding, but how parents are responding. One thing that we did is we did an AMA, like, an ask-me-anything in the r/roblox subreddit and it was really interesting to see the questions that different families had about Roblox and about this new feature.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think I’m keeping my eye on how that community continues to respond and then also on how these lawsuits are going to play out. and if we’re going to see more. The other thing that I’m looking at in conjunction with Roblox is Discord and other platforms. Because even if the initial messaging with a predator happens on Roblox, it is then usually turning to other platforms that, you know, have turned into situations where a child is really unsafe. So I think that that goes hand in hand with the issues on Roblox, and it’s something that I’m continuing to look into.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox’s age verification system is unique, because the platform is trying to tackle a very real problem with predators. But age gating is becoming the norm online, as platforms face increasing pressure to keep kids from seeing potentially harmful content, namely, porn. But restricting access to sexual content opens the door for broader censorship, beyond just porn.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with free speech? A lot more than you’d think. For years, sex workers have been ringing the alarm bell when it comes to online surveillance and censorship. If age verification does become the norm, the internet will change for everyone and cracking down on porn is the first step. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re diving into that next week. But for Roblox, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our team includes our senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music and Jen Chien, who is the Director of Podcasts. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Are you closing your tabs? Then don’t forget to rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! Maybe drop a comment too! And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "Roblox says their new age verification is about improving safety, but will it compromise digital privacy?",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1773259766,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 93,
"wordCount": 6052
},
"headData": {
"title": "Send Pics? Roblox Wants to Know Your Age | KQED",
"description": "Roblox is one of the most popular gaming platforms for kids, with millions of young gamers playing user-created games. It’s also been heavily criticized for its track record on child safety, and is now facing more than 80 lawsuits alleging child abuse and grooming. In response, the company recently rolled out a new safety measure: AI-powered facial age verification that restricts who players can talk with. The reception from players has been anything but warm.In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by youth mental health reporter Rachel Hale, who explains how predators operate on the platform, why everyone seems to hate Roblox’s new AI age verification feature, and the incredible lengths some users are willing to go to get around it. And while Roblox says age verification is about improving safety, questions have emerged about its accuracy, digital privacy and how this move impacts the broader push for age verification across the internet.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"socialDescription": "Roblox is one of the most popular gaming platforms for kids, with millions of young gamers playing user-created games. It’s also been heavily criticized for its track record on child safety, and is now facing more than 80 lawsuits alleging child abuse and grooming. In response, the company recently rolled out a new safety measure: AI-powered facial age verification that restricts who players can talk with. The reception from players has been anything but warm.In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by youth mental health reporter Rachel Hale, who explains how predators operate on the platform, why everyone seems to hate Roblox’s new AI age verification feature, and the incredible lengths some users are willing to go to get around it. And while Roblox says age verification is about improving safety, questions have emerged about its accuracy, digital privacy and how this move impacts the broader push for age verification across the internet.",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Send Pics? Roblox Wants to Know Your Age",
"datePublished": "2026-02-25T03:00:26-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-03-11T13:09:26-07:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 33520,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"source": "Close All Tabs",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"audioUrl": "https://traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC8728402132.mp3?updated=1771995978",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12074525",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12074525/send-pics-roblox-wants-to-know-your-age",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox is one of the most popular gaming platforms for kids, with millions of young gamers playing user-created games. It’s also been heavily criticized for its track record on child safety, and is now facing more than 80 lawsuits alleging child abuse and grooming. In response, the company recently rolled out a new safety measure: AI-powered facial age verification that restricts who players can talk with. The reception from players has been anything but warm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this episode, host Morgan Sung is joined by youth mental health reporter Rachel Hale, who explains how predators operate on the platform, why everyone seems to hate Roblox’s new AI age verification feature, and the incredible lengths some users are willing to go to get around it. And while Roblox says age verification is about improving safety, questions have emerged about its accuracy, digital privacy and how this move impacts the broader push for age verification across the internet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8728402132\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel Hale, youth mental health reporter at \u003cem>USA Today\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2026/01/05/roblox-face-scan-child-safety-features/87970290007/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I got an up-close look at Roblox’s new safety feature. Here’s what I found.\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachel Hale, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">USA Today \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2025/12/18/roblox-lawsuits-sexual-abuse/87780803007/\">She just wanted to play Roblox with friends. Then the messages from a predator began.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rachel Hale\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>USA Today\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://restofworld.org/2026/social-media-age-verification-tools/\">Can social media age verification really protect kids?\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Rina Chandran\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, \u003ci>Rest Of World\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.engadget.com/gaming/robloxs-age-verification-system-is-reportedly-a-trainwreck-220320016.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox’s age verification system is reportedly a trainwreck\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Will Shanklin, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Engadget \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey, a quick heads up: this episode discusses abuse and grooming, which may be triggering for some people, so listen with care. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Youtube User \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Foxboy12\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, as a content creator, you can see why all this is really bad because how am I supposed to communicate with my fans if Roblox just doesn’t let me hear what they have to say?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, let me explain what’s going on here. This is a Roblox creator who’s complaining about the new Roblox age verification system. It limits interactions between players depending on their age. This creator, and many others, are pretty frustrated about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from Youtube User \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Foxboy12\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I won’t be able to chat to them! Because they’ll have no idea what I’m saying because Roblox just filters everything out. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you have kids, or nieces or nephews or little neighbors you’ve probably heard of Roblox. If not, let me try to explain just how popular this game is among children. It has 83 million daily users\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, and 42% of them are under the age of 13.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it’s not actually a single game, but really a platform with lots of different games, all created with the Roblox’s game engine, Roblox Studio. And it has millions of user-created games, called experiences.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s Dress To Impress, where you get six minutes to put together an outfit based on a theme, and then strut down a runway with other players who vote on the best look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">[\u003cem>Audio clip from Youtube User CakeMiix\u003c/em>]\u003cbr>\n\u003cem>She said she hated my videos and needed to learn how to dress. I decided to copy my hater’s outfits every round, but make them better.\u003c/em>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Or there’s Siberian Coal Mining Simulator, where the only objective is to work the mines, collaborating or competing with other players. And if you don’t meet your quota, the debt collectors might come for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">And then there’s the very popular Steal a Brainrot, which is kind of like capture the flag, but you’re stealing creatures called brainrots. The more rare the brainrot, the more valuable it is. And you can build fortresses to protect your brainrot collection. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">Almost all of these games are multiplayer experiences, and revolve around interaction with other players. Here’s the snag: Roblox introduced the new age verification system in select countries late last year, and in January, made it a worldwide requirement. It limits players’ ability to chat with others, based on their Roblox-determined age group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">Here’s another creator pointing out how much quieter Roblox is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp class=\"p1\">\u003cspan class=\"s1\">[\u003cem>Audio clip from Youtube User Flamingo\u003c/em>]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan class=\"s1\">We have officially entered the new era of Roblox. We are in the silent era of Roblox. We are in the “shh” era.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox rolled out age checks because the platform does have a real child safety issue on its hands. The company is facing over 80 lawsuits\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> over allegations of child abuse and grooming. The lawsuits allege that Roblox not only markets its games to children, but also enables predators to contact underage users. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But a lot of players aren’t happy with the new system — and it’s not just because they’re siloed by age group. The way Roblox is determining players’ ages raises red flags when it comes to privacy. Many parents aren’t thrilled about the new system, either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re diving into the world of Roblox — and why age checks aren’t the perfect solution to child safety issues.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Before we get into the privacy questions, we need to understand the Roblox landscape. Let’s open a new tab: The Roblox predator problem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel Hale is a USA Today reporter who covers youth mental health. She’s been reporting on child safety across digital platforms, and has been following the Roblox lawsuits. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s spoken to several parents who allege that their children were groomed by predators they met on the platform. Here’s Rachel, telling the story of Amie and her 13-year-old daughter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In Amie’s case as well as in many others, the Predator initially reached out on Roblox and then moved the interactions and messaging to another platform. In Amie’s specific case, you know, you had someone who asked. Something that is irresistible to, to kids all around the world, “Do you wanna make Robux?”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robux is the in-game currency that costs real money. Like a lot of freemium games, Roblox runs on micro-transactions; you get the base experience, but with Robux, you can buy cool outfits, use unique weapons, and get game passes that grant perks like accessing special areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After the predator reached out to Amie’s daughter through Roblox’s in-game chat feature, and told her that she could make Robux by playing a game. They told her that in order to play, they had to move to Discord. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They first asked Amie’s daughter to hold up two fingers to verify before they started the game, and then asked Amie’s daughter to send sexually explicit videos and images. But it didn’t stop there. It turned into, you know, what many people would classify as grooming. If Amie’s daughter went more than a few hours without contacting the predator, they would message, I’ve missed you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He would shower her with affection saying, “I love you so much,” or sending her sexually explicit content of himself. “I would never leave you,” messages like that. It was relentless. And when Amie discovered what was happening to her daughter, she discontinued her daughter’s use of both Roblox and Discord and reported the username to the FBI. And this is a situation that has happened countless times and that I spoke with numerous parents about, um, with stories that sound really similar to Amie’s.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is such a common problem that some creators have taken it upon themselves to confront predators. Like this one YouTuber, who goes by Schlep. He’s conducted Roblox sting operations, where he and other creators pretend to be minors, collect incriminating explicit messages from predators, lure them into in-person meetings and then alert police about it. To date, he’s documented six arrests in his YouTube videos.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio from the account of Youtube user Schlep\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was arrested and charged with three felony counts related to illicit material . . . I’m so proud to see our efforts at stopping predators finally make an impact beyond the screen… I don’t hate Roblox. I love it. And that’s why I care so much about this problem. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Schlep is kind of like a modern day version of Chris Hansen and \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To Catch A Predator.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Schlep was even referenced in one of the child safety lawsuits against Roblox. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bad actors exist on all online platforms, but child predation is especially prevalent on Roblox. Part of it is sheer volume because it’s so popular with kids — again, more than 40% of users are under 13.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But other games are also popular with minors, like Fortnite or Minecraft. What makes Roblox different? Here’s Rachel again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a combination of the business model and the steps a company is willing to take towards safety, even if that could potentially harm their usage patterns and profits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Roblox uses a free model, some people might call it a freemium model. The game is free to download and play, and the company makes their money from players spending Robux. So from their in-game interactions. And the more time a user spends on the platform, the more likely they are to spend Robux and generate, um, money for the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Minecraft, on the other hand, is a paid model and you buy it upfront, so there’s less incentive to push user interaction with each other. Take another example, like Fortnite. It’s got a similar freemium model to Roblox, but some safety advocates that I spoke with have credited Fortnite for choosing to implement it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kid protective features, like more options for private or controlled play zones. Roblox does have some of those same features, including parent controls, but in Fortnite, kids are usually playing with a smaller group, sometimes with their preexisting friends as opposed to roaming in these social spaces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Roblox is really set up based on having people, um, move through these different experiences and interacting with strangers in the public.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How has Roblox responded to this issue? How are people criticizing the way that they’ve responded?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I visited Roblox’s headquarters in San Mateo, California in December, to ask them about the steps that they’ve taken following these lawsuits and the criticism that they’ve received, and they emphasized that they take their child safety very seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The biggest step that they’ve taken, uh, in this area is implementing a new facial age verification feature. It started rolling out in November in select markets and became mandatory on January 7th for anyone looking to use the chat bar feature. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the way that it works is that once you open the app, if you wanna go to the chat bar, Roblox will now prompt any users past, present, anyone who’s on the platform to decide if they would like to go through facial age estimation or if they would like to not use the chat bar feature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you choose to continue, it uses AI to take a scan of your face and estimates your age. Roblox, as executives told me that their data shows that it can estimate an age within two years of accuracy. And after that, users are placed into one of six different age groups. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They said that they were working on this feature and they wouldn’t necessarily portray it as like directly a response to these lawsuits, but of course it is in response to, um, the child safety issues that they’ve had. And they’ve really tried to emphasize that they’re the one of the largest platforms that has implemented this type of age verification. So that’s really the biggest step that they’ve taken in conjunction with their parental controls, which they say can make a big difference in how users, um, are, are engaging on the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because of Roblos’s new features, the age checks to chat now look like this and, bear with me here, you’re about to hear a lot of numbers. So if your child is under 9 years old, they can’t talk to anyone 13 or older. Kids between 10 and 13 can’t message anyone over 16. Users in the 13 to 15 group can’t chat with anyone over 17. But users who are 16 to 17 can’t chat with anyone under 13, or over 21. If you’re 18-20, you can chat with anyone over the age of 16, but not under. And if you’re over 21, you can only chat with users who are over 18. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’re overwhelmed right now, I don’t blame you. Roblox’s age-gating is pretty granular. It’s supposed to imitate the clusters of age groups that would interact in real life. Like, it’s appropriate for a 14 year old and 16 year old to hang out and be friends, but it would raise red flags if it was a 12 year old and a 19 year old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that it is confusing for players. The way that Roblox has described it is that these groups are supposed to kind of mimic real life groups that you would see at like, a lunch table or you know, on sporting teams. So the idea is that users would be playing alongside other users who are of similar ages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The AI estimation works by analyzing the user’s face for physiological markers that correlate with a specific age. A person’s face changes the most when they’re young, so it’s easier for the system to estimate someone’s age when they’re, say, between 6 and 10 years old as opposed to 40 or 45. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once you go through the facial age estimation, you’re able to upload a photo of an ID if you, if it was incorrect, um, in estimating your age. But you know, as they’ve started to roll it out, there’s been a lot of talk about it online, especially in online communities like the r/roblox subreddit. So we’ve been able to already start to see some of the feedback there from current users of Roblox and I think that what users are concerned about is those cases where the facial age estimation feature is inaccurate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then you might have a user who’s 12, who is able to talk with 17 year olds or 18 year olds if their age is inaccurately estimated as 16. So these of course, are more the outlier cases, but there are enough of them that people have criticized it pretty heavily online.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to get into the community backlash against Roblox’s age checks in a new tab … after this break. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome back! Roblox rolled out a new age verification system, but it can be inaccurate and now, Roblox players and their parents are raising concerns over it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open a new tab: Did Roblox Age Verification flop?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Back in December, USA Today reporter Rachel Hale flew out from New York to visit the Roblox headquarters in San Mateo, California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when I was there, I was able to meet with multiple Roblox executives, including Matt Kaufman, who is the chief Safety Officer there, then Elizabeth Milo, Roblox Global Head of Parental Advocacy, and both of those people walked me through how they think about, uh, safety on the app. After we did our standard interviews, we did a demo of the facial age estimation feature and of the parental control features with two of the safety leads who had helped put together these features. So I was able to kind of pick their brains about how the AI was going to work in the facial age estimation feature. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we walked through it with a phone and an iPad so that I could see what it would be like for a parent who had kids of two different ages, and I could see how that would change users experiences playing on the app.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what did you expect going in? I know you tried the feature ahead of time and it wasn’t quite right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I will say I was disappointed with the features accuracy, because Roblox had emphasized in prior press conferences that it would be within two years of accuracy. And because I’m under 25, so I’m still in that younger range that they said the accuracy is usually within those two years. I was hoping that it would get my age within one to two years. But when I did the demo, I tried it the night before in my hotel room, not wearing any makeup, you know, with kind of different lighting behind me. And then I did it again the next day at their office wearing a full face of makeup with much brighter, better lighting on me. I’m 24, and both times it estimated my age as 18 to 20.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I found that that didn’t make a difference. I have seen users online talk about things like, how facial hair, things like that, how that might impact what age you’re estimated as. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some players have complained that they were incorrectly placed in older age groups because they went through puberty earlier than their peers. And others have complained that they were incorrectly placed in younger age groups because they just look younger. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another thing that I’ve seen anecdotally online in some of these same online forums, um, or in direct messages to me, are concerns about kids who might have different developmental markers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So maybe someone who’s, you know, has developmental disability that might change the way that they look and that’s a valid concern. I think that that exists across platforms with age verification. So that’s not specific to roblox. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you spend some time, like you said, in Roblox Communities online, a lot of users are really unhappy with this change. Their concern is that it hasn’t actually worked to solve child safety because of issues with accuracy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen parents who are concerned because their kids who are maybe 12 years old have used the feature and it’s estimated them as 15 and now they’re able to be on the platform without the parental controls. And it’s very hard for the parent to kind of roll that back, um, unless the kid is willing to cooperate with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, YouTube and TikTok are brimming with tutorials for bypassing the age check system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Snippet from How to unlock chat in Roblox video\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In this video, I’m going to be showing you exactly how you can verify your age on Roblox and unlock any Roblox feature you want, including the chat. And this works for all ages.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The facial recognition system isn’t that difficult to trick, either. Users have managed to pass as adults by drawing fake mustaches on themselves, or by caking on really heavy, Jersey Shore-type makeup. They’ve also gotten around it by scanning videos of other people’s faces. On YouTube, there’s this video from 12 years ago, of a woman slowly turning her face left and right, for artists to use as a figure drawing reference.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Today, that video has more than half a million views … and nearly all of the 800 comments are from Roblox users who’ve used her face to pass the age check. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachel isn’t surprised at how far users are going to pass as adults. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I wish I could say that I was, but I think when you have a platform this big, you know, there are going to be people who will go to any links, uh, especially just at scale with how many users there are. So taken in isolation it does feel, um, pretty alarming, but put into context, it makes sense with what we know about Roblox.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve also seen people start to try to work around the chat feature as a whole by making custom avatars that might say their discord username or username for another platform, which then circumvents the, the whole purpose of the safety in the feature and the idea of getting people to keep the chat in game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve also even seen things as extreme as people talking about someone selling an underage account on eBay (this was later taken down.) So we’ve definitely seen Roblox users start to try to either circumvent the system, uh, and who have been extreme in their criticisms that it hasn’t really been accurate in solving the safety issue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The AI facial age estimator seems pretty concerning to a lot of people, especially parents. Can you explain why this technology is so controversial?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So part of the reason that the artificial intelligence is controversial is because people have data privacy concerns. The artificial intelligence here is used to estimate the user’s age after the face scan and the picture is deleted afterwards. Roblox outsources this to a company called Persona and says that users can trust that their picture is deleted afterwards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But some families that I spoke with, and you can also find this on Reddit and online communities, people have concerns because of issues with similar features on other platforms. For example, in October of last year, the messaging platform Discord had hackers who compromised five CA, their third party vendor that they used for age verification, and stole nearly 70,000 images of government issued IDs in Australia and the UK.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So even though Roblox says that you can trust that artificial intelligence, um, I think that people have some concerns because of what’s happened on other platforms with similar features.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that parents who are tuned in enough to what’s happening on Roblox are already having conversations with their children about digital safety. Um, I think that the real issue is kids whose parents aren’t tuned in, and so they’re probably making decisions about whether or not to use the feature without parental input.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I do think that a lot of parents who are already tuned into Roblox and are closely following their children’s gameplay, some of those parents have made the decision to not use the feature and to instead decide that their child won’t use the chat bar feature.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox’s age checks are an attempt to prevent predators from interacting with children, but that’s not the only reason the platform rolled it out. It’s also to comply with the United Kingdom’s Online Safety Act, which went into effect last year.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This law requires all internet users to be at least 18 to access quote, “harmful content.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Certain Roblox experiences that are more graphic or have more mature themes are rated as “Restricted.” They’re for players who are at least 18. Now, only players who have verified their age with Roblox can access this content.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“Harmful content” is a very broad umbrella — and now, many websites and social platforms are enforcing age checks like Roblox. Efforts to age-gate the internet are sweeping Europe, Australia, and here, in the US, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But like we’ve explored in this deep dive, it’s not going great for Roblox. Surely there are other ways to protect children.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have time to open one more tab. Right?: Is Roblox’s method the future of age verification?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox CEO Dave Baszucki isn’t exactly helping the situation, either. Late last year, he went on the New York Times tech podcast Hard Fork to talk about the age-gating policy. Here’s how he responded to a question about Roblox’s predator problem: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hard Fork Podcast clip\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">David Baszucki: We think of it not necessarily just as a problem but an opportunity as well. How do we allow young people to build, communicate and hang out together? How do we build the future of communication at the same time? So we, you know, we’ve been, I think, in a good way working on this ever since we started.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s Rachel again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I mean, there’s been a lot of criticism toward Roblox. And as you’ll see in that New York Times interview, you know, uh, a lot of head employees at the company, it’s really tense when they’re asked about it because they know that they’re pushed between a rock and a hard place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, uh, Dave and other top employees there who are in charge of safety, like Matt Kaufman, have faced a lot of personal and direct criticism over the ways that they’ve led child safety on the app. And I think it’s an issue that Roblox will continue to have to deal with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In some ways Roblox seems to be in a real lose-lose situation. Um, I mean, they had to respond to the predator issue and the lawsuits, and yet the solution that they’ve come up with has been received incredibly poorly. How do you think the company views the situation that they’re currently in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that question is what they’re going to have to think about this year. And ultimately if more of these lawsuits continue to come out. I think that they will have to consider more heavily if they want to continue to prioritize profits or if they would move to implement safety features that would maybe take a hit toward the number of users on the platform.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that they’re going to have to think about that decision much more heavily this year than they have in the past as these lawsuits have continued to gain a lot more publicity and traction. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other two things that the company has faced a lot of scrutiny over that I think they’ll need to consider in line with this, um, is their removal of so-called vigilantes from the platform who, you know, call themselves predator hunters. Roblox faced a lot of scrutiny over their removal of these vigilantes, uh, without more efforts put toward the actual child safety issues on the platform.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then there’s also been a push for some legal cases to be resolved via arbitration instead of in public court. And Roblox has faced a lot of criticism over not having these cases play out more publicly, uh, because a lot of safety advocates and families feel that that’s what would be in the best interest for, for the public in terms of transparency and accountability. So I think that Roblox is going to have to really think about those different things in line with the child safety this year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are there any other solutions that have been suggested?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A lot of people have suggested that Roblox remove the chat feature altogether for in-game. How plausible this is? I’m not sure. Um, I think that that would change the entire nature of the game. Other people have brought up that Roblox could implement more options for private play among friends that you already know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The way that that works right now is through something called trusted users. So you could play with someone who’s not your exact age, but who through parental controls has been listed as a trusted user, like an older cousin or an aunt or uncle, that type of thing. Um, but some safety advocates have brought up that it would be beneficial for Roblox to put more efforts into those private play places, uh, or groups as opposed to putting so much emphasis on the public gameplay, uh, between each other.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The issue there, again, is it comes back to profits and the way that the platform is set up and because the profits are based off of users, um, generating new games or experiences and using those in-game robux. The incentive is definitely to keep people playing with each other in a public space and moving through as many new games as possible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think that Roblox will have to make some decisions about their priorities in terms of, um, profits compared to child safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As you mentioned like, earlier in our interview, Roblox really sees themselves as pioneering this technology. Do you see other companies like Fortnite, like Minecraft, um, I guess Club Penguin, if it was still around by like, also adopting a kind of facial recognition, age verification?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that based on how Roblox’s rollout has gone, places who may have been looking into this will probably take a longer pause to think about the best way to implement it. I do think a lot of the concerns come down to AI and how accurate it is, and even though Roblox has emphasized that they’ve been the first to do this and that they’ve been leading the way. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox also has a much larger issue with child predators than Minecraft or Fortnite does. So I don’t necessarily see other platforms moving to implement this right away as a result of Roblox. If anything, I think people are probably looking at how Roblox’s user database has responded and thinking about that and how they’re shaping their responses to safety on their own platforms.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This situation with Roblox especially, it comes at a time when age verification is being pushed all over the internet, um, often through legislation in Australia and the UK, soon enough probably here in the U.S. How does that impact the larger conversation around this issue and the way that other gaming platforms will probably also have to, in some way, age-gate their content?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that it continues to make it so that it’s a norm of these platforms. You know, um, five years ago, hardly any platform had an age verification feature. We’re seeing the same thing with Beyond Games, things like sports betting platforms, you know. We’re seeing it go from a user-oriented age verification, where it’s just you’re putting in an email and checking and it’s very easy to just check the box they’re over 13, to an actual form of verification. What that verification looks like likely will differ between platforms, but I do think that Roblox implementing this feature has contributed to that wider norm of age verification being a more common practice on online platforms.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As a youth mental health reporter, what are you keeping your eye on when it comes to this situation?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Rachel Hale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that right now I am really looking at how not just the general community is responding, but how parents are responding. One thing that we did is we did an AMA, like, an ask-me-anything in the r/roblox subreddit and it was really interesting to see the questions that different families had about Roblox and about this new feature.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I think I’m keeping my eye on how that community continues to respond and then also on how these lawsuits are going to play out. and if we’re going to see more. The other thing that I’m looking at in conjunction with Roblox is Discord and other platforms. Because even if the initial messaging with a predator happens on Roblox, it is then usually turning to other platforms that, you know, have turned into situations where a child is really unsafe. So I think that that goes hand in hand with the issues on Roblox, and it’s something that I’m continuing to look into.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Roblox’s age verification system is unique, because the platform is trying to tackle a very real problem with predators. But age gating is becoming the norm online, as platforms face increasing pressure to keep kids from seeing potentially harmful content, namely, porn. But restricting access to sexual content opens the door for broader censorship, beyond just porn.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So what does this have to do with free speech? A lot more than you’d think. For years, sex workers have been ringing the alarm bell when it comes to online surveillance and censorship. If age verification does become the norm, the internet will change for everyone and cracking down on porn is the first step. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re diving into that next week. But for Roblox, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Chris Hambrick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our team includes our senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music and Jen Chien, who is the Director of Podcasts. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you like these deep dives? Are you closing your tabs? Then don’t forget to rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show! Maybe drop a comment too! And if you really like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate dot KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
}
],
"link": "/news/12074525/send-pics-roblox-wants-to-know-your-age",
"authors": [
"11944",
"11943",
"11946",
"11869",
"11832"
],
"programs": [
"news_35082"
],
"categories": [
"news_33520"
],
"tags": [
"news_25184",
"news_35092",
"news_23800",
"news_3137",
"news_31079",
"news_34646",
"news_2125",
"news_1631"
],
"featImg": "news_12074528",
"label": "source_news_12074525"
},
"news_12074002": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12074002",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12074002",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1771844441000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "the-payphone-that-lets-san-franciscans-call-a-republican",
"title": "The Pay Phone That Lets San Franciscans ‘Call a Republican’",
"publishDate": 1771844441,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "The Pay Phone That Lets San Franciscans ‘Call a Republican’ | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For several weeks, a red pay phone sat outside a tattoo parlor in San Francisco’s Mission District — with a sign reading ‘Call a Republican.’ If you picked it up, a blue pay phone with the sign ‘Call a Democrat’ in the conservative city of Abilene, Texas would ring.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This project, created by a company called Matter Neuroscience, aimed to connect Americans from vastly different backgrounds via the old-fashioned phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Links:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073446/what-happens-when-democrats-in-san-francisco-call-up-republicans-in-texas-its-pretty-cordial\">What Happens When Democrats in San Francisco Call Up Republicans in Texas? It’s Pretty Cordial | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5345988675\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. For weeks outside of a tattoo shop in San Francisco’s Mission District, an old school payphone painted red could be heard ringing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello? Hey, this is Chris calling from San Francisco. Who am I speaking with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On top of the payphone was a sign inviting people walking by to ‘Call a Republican.’ The phone connected to a nearly identical phone booth in Abilene, Texas, except for the sign that read ‘Call a Democrat.’ And it’s all part of a social experiment called The Party Line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it was sort of a social experiment to see what would people choose, common ground or conflict. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Studies show that most American voters are pretty pessimistic that we can overcome our country’s deep political divides. So today, we’re gonna talk with KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman about this social experiment and listen in on conversations between residents of San Francisco and Abilene, Texas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the payphone is a project of Matter Neuroscience. That’s a tech startup in Boulder, Colorado.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their mission is basically just to try to help people live more emotionally balanced lives. One example of that is that they’re in clinical trials at Stanford right now, trying to help people with depression who aren’t responding to traditional treatments. But they also do these sort of like side quest projects. For instance, one was they prototype this six pound phone case to prevent people from doom scrolling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So basically the phone case was so heavy that it was just physically impossible to sit there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, to do the infinite scroll on your phone. But the common thread here with the payphone is that they’re trying to get people away from habits that are bad for our emotional health. So the idea with this payphone is how can we get people to connect in a way that’s emotionally positive and healthy for our brains?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How does the payphone work exactly? So there’s one in San Francisco and then another elsewhere in the country?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, Matter Neuroscience bought two payphones on Facebook Marketplace, ripped out their guts, and outfitted them with SIM cards that basically turned them into cell phones. And they put one in San Francisco, and they put another in Abilene, Texas. So the idea was to connect two very politically different parts of our country. So San Francisco voted heavily for Kamala Harris in the 2024 presidential election. Abilene, Texas voted heavily for Donald Trump. Both cities are over 100,000 residents, so that was sort of the thinking of connecting America’s most, you know, I’m saying this in air quotes, most conservative city and most liberal city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Audio from outside the payphone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is anybody picking up? No. Oh, darn. That’s too bad. It might take a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so what happens is if you pick up the phone in San Francisco, it rings the phone in Texas. And the phone in Texas is located outside a bookstore in Abilene. Same thing, if you pick up the phone in Texas, it’ll ring the payphone in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you just wait basically for someone to pick up on the other side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, you pick it up, it calls, and then it rings on the other side. And I was standing outside the payphone for a while and there were times when it was ringing and nobody picked up. There were other times when people walked by and they decided to pick it up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m so curious about the conversations that you heard folks having and also who was interested and engaging with this payphone. I know you met a woman named Maria out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so Maria Gonzalez is a lifelong San Franciscan, lives pretty close to the payphone, and she was walking by, heard a ring, and decided to pick it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh, really? Where? Where are you at? Oh, you just told me where you’re at. Yeah. You need to get out here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She ended up finding a Democrat in Texas or the person who called was a Democrat wanting to sort of commiserate about you know politics and say oh you know I want to be where you are essentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was nice to speak to somebody and we had similar ways of looking at life and so, you know, I mean every time you pick up the phone it’s going to be a different experience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She told me that the conversation that she had reminded her of sort of her own difficulties in her family speaking with the family members who are supporters of President Trump. She said her uncle is a quote Trumpster and that she tries to maintain a relationship with him but it’s hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we have these discussions every time we speak, you know, and I love my uncle, I just don’t, we just don’t agree in our political views. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I think a lot of people feel is that it can be difficult to talk about politics when people have different views.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that we need something like this for sure. I was born and raised in San Francisco, so I grew up around a lot of different people with different ethnicities, going to different people’s houses and having food with them and experiencing their life. And I think that’s the best way that you can open up your mind if you live amongst people that are different from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another man named Stephen Albert said that his twin sister is a Trump supporter and that he was put on this earth to cancel out her vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’re gonna play and listen to a snippet from a phone call between a 46 year old man in San Francisco and it turns out a 46-year-old woman in Abilene, Texas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I’m Steve. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Hi, Steve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing much. Just looking for books. Classic books.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well this says ‘Call a Republican.’ Are you a Republican? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I am.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, probably an independent I would say as I’ve got older independent Are you, what are you? Are you a Republican? Are you a Democrat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god, I don’t, I don’t I mean I live in San Francisco, you know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yeah, so you’re liberal, that’s fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m pretty liberal. Okay. Yeah Yeah, I… do you see the world as crazy as I do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do, worse and worse every day. It’s getting worse every day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See we have so much in common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know, we do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love this clip so much because I feel like it’s so awkward in the beginning. They’re like, are you a liberal? I am a liberal. And then you feel this like sigh of relief when they both agree that the world is crazy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they’re sort of tiptoeing around each other at the beginning, like being like, is this okay? And then they both like say like, yeah, I’m willing to have a conversation with you. And I thought it was interesting that the woman was like, you know, I am kind of Republican, but I’m kind of an independent. You know, there’s some of that nuance that you might not get in an online conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I’m out here in the middle of the day and I’m about to have a delicious tuna salad sandwich and you’re shopping for books and neither of us are at work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I’m a stay-at-home mom, so I don’t work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re a stay at home mom? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, with four kids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Four kids?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God, how old are you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m 46. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m also 46. I have no kids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have no kids… Hey, you’re living the life then, let me tell you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am living the live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m tied down forever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, but you love it, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do love it. I do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re also having the AI here, did you know that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>I did not know that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so they’re building a huge AI center here. It’s one of the biggest in the, I guess in the world is coming, or they’ve already been building it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A data center?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is that a positive impact? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I would say there’s a lot more traffic. There’s a lotta more traffic\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it probably, what, takes a lot of energy and water to run a place like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah, it’s going to be very interesting when it’s all done, what happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s probably not being done for our benefit, is it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, probably not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that they’re like learning from each other in this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and having, finding a commonality again, like San Francisco, we sort of live in the shadow of AI, and then right down there on Main Street, Texas, you’ve also got AI’s influence coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you can hear her bringing it up because she knows that. She knows that him living in San Francisco is like, yeah, you live in AI capital of the world and it’s here too. Okay, and here’s another conversation between, as it turns out, two progressives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh, Texas, and hell yeah. What’s it like over there? I’m a little scared for you guys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s OK. You’re in California? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, I always wanted to go there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s amazing. What can I say, queer? Quite queer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, okay, so I have to tell you, I’m not a Republican.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, okay, okay. I was testing. That was a test. The queer thing was a task. I knew instantly when you said you wanted to go to San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I have a trans, I have a trans child, so, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to say it quietly. I have say it really quietly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah, I’d imagine, I would imagine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, I just love their energy. They’re just like, they just sound like two girls on the phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all gonna be okay, it’s all going to be okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s all going to be okay. There’s so many amazing people in the world all across, no matter what state you’re in. The people of Texas, there’s some great hard-working people in Texas that you are ready to do the work to really turn some stuff around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s right. We’re going to get there. We are going to go there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, and I believe in you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s like, it’s very fun. It’s a very odd situation when you’re put on the phone with a stranger and tasked with having a conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s like that element of surprise that’s kind of fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like mystery box.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think another thing that you’re hearing is like, not everyone in Abilene is a Republican and not everyone in San Francisco is a Democrat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m glad I got to hear you. This is so beautiful. I don’t even know exactly what this phone thing is, but I, I, this is awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I talked to the bookstore owner in Texas and she said, yeah, a lot of the Democrats and Abilene have been like coming out of the woodwork and seeking out this payphone trying to find like-minded people, which could be sort of a little more challenging there. And in the same way, she said she’s picked up calls where San Francisco Republicans are calling looking to talk to like-minded folk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, did you pick up the phone and try to talk to anyone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I did. And you know, I have my journalist hat on, so people are like, well, are you a Republican or a Democrat? I’m like, I’m sort of a journalist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a journalist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not really supposed to have a political view when I’m working, but I did experience that same feeling of like, you’re a person in Texas and I grew up in San Francisco, I’ve lived here almost my whole life. I’ve never been to Texas. What’s that like? Like we’re part of the same country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do wonder, Azul, just like after hearing some of these phone calls, I’m sure there were many, many more that we haven’t listened to, but do the folks who put this payphone out there, do they think that it did what it was supposed to do? Like, did it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the payphones were up for a month and they recorded around 200 conversations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ended up happening was quite beautiful and quite affirming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I spoke to Ben Goldhirsh, he’s a co-founder of Matter Neuroscience, and he said listening to these conversations has been incredibly meaningful for him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whatever the human topic is that allows us to actually connect, that’s what people gravitate towards. And people also gravitated away from kind of broad brushstrokes, like, oh, I’m a Republican, but don’t think that all of my positions are all on the right. I also believe in X and Y on the left side. I think people really pronounced the nuanced reality of their existence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, small sample size. Can we draw major conclusions from these conversations? I can’t say, but to him, I think it is proof that when people take the time to connect in a healthier way, there can be positive benefits. So when we get offline, we get on the phone or talk to somebody in person, it can be beneficial for us as humans and we can sort of break down some of these barriers that we might construct that prevent us from relating to each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if you pulled an alien that was looking at America from, you know, a million miles away who was just digesting our news and our social media, and you said, hey, like, evaluate how far apart these people are, I think it would be reasonable to set a pretty wide delta. And I think when that alien listens to these conversations, they’ll be like, a lot of these are buds. These folks are all buds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they took the payphones down on Wednesday, right? Wednesday of last week. Do they plan to do this again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Matter Neuroscience told me that they’re looking at other applications for the payphones that could have similar benefits for different populations. One idea is a senior center and a college campus to sort of unite people across generations. And the other idea is to go international with it. Unite people from different countries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you feel like it worked on you? I mean, like the purpose of this payphone. Are you convinced? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One question I have about this project is that, you know, there were around 200 conversations. This is a drop in the bucket compared to how many billions of people use social media every day. And this project was literally based on a payphone, like a piece of tech that does not exist anymore largely. It’s definitely going against the prevailing headwinds of how we’re communicating and how we are. The methods we’re increasingly turning to to get information out. But there is a lot of research to say that like social connection is good for us. And I did feel, I felt good when I talked to the payphone and it felt good to listen to people talking and it feel good to listened to these conversations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah and especially I feel like in this like world where we’re presumably more connected than ever with social media and stuff but actually like sometimes you just need to pick up the phone and talk to someone. Well Azul, this was such a fun story, thank you so much for sharing it with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, happy to be here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Payphone sound: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You are now being connected to the party line in Abilene, Texas. Participants must be 18 or older. This call may be recorded for use in a public project. By staying on the line, you consent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, a reporter for KQED. This conversation was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Gabriela Glueck produced this episode, scored it, and added all the tape, music courtesy of Audio Network. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild. American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, thank you so much for listening. Talk to you next time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "Two pay phones, in San Francisco and Abilene, Texas, aimed to connect Americans across political divides.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1771868184,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 122,
"wordCount": 3513
},
"headData": {
"title": "The Pay Phone That Lets San Franciscans ‘Call a Republican’ | KQED",
"description": "Two pay phones, in San Francisco and Abilene, Texas, aimed to connect Americans across political divides.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "The Pay Phone That Lets San Franciscans ‘Call a Republican’",
"datePublished": "2026-02-23T03:00:41-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-02-23T09:36:24-08:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 28250,
"slug": "local",
"name": "Local"
},
"source": "The Bay",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC5345988675.mp3",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12074002",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12074002/the-payphone-that-lets-san-franciscans-call-a-republican",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For several weeks, a red pay phone sat outside a tattoo parlor in San Francisco’s Mission District — with a sign reading ‘Call a Republican.’ If you picked it up, a blue pay phone with the sign ‘Call a Democrat’ in the conservative city of Abilene, Texas would ring.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This project, created by a company called Matter Neuroscience, aimed to connect Americans from vastly different backgrounds via the old-fashioned phone. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Links:\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"list-style-type: none\">\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12073446/what-happens-when-democrats-in-san-francisco-call-up-republicans-in-texas-its-pretty-cordial\">What Happens When Democrats in San Francisco Call Up Republicans in Texas? It’s Pretty Cordial | KQED\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5345988675\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. For weeks outside of a tattoo shop in San Francisco’s Mission District, an old school payphone painted red could be heard ringing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello? Hey, this is Chris calling from San Francisco. Who am I speaking with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On top of the payphone was a sign inviting people walking by to ‘Call a Republican.’ The phone connected to a nearly identical phone booth in Abilene, Texas, except for the sign that read ‘Call a Democrat.’ And it’s all part of a social experiment called The Party Line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so it was sort of a social experiment to see what would people choose, common ground or conflict. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Studies show that most American voters are pretty pessimistic that we can overcome our country’s deep political divides. So today, we’re gonna talk with KQED reporter Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman about this social experiment and listen in on conversations between residents of San Francisco and Abilene, Texas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the payphone is a project of Matter Neuroscience. That’s a tech startup in Boulder, Colorado.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman is a reporter for KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their mission is basically just to try to help people live more emotionally balanced lives. One example of that is that they’re in clinical trials at Stanford right now, trying to help people with depression who aren’t responding to traditional treatments. But they also do these sort of like side quest projects. For instance, one was they prototype this six pound phone case to prevent people from doom scrolling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So basically the phone case was so heavy that it was just physically impossible to sit there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, to do the infinite scroll on your phone. But the common thread here with the payphone is that they’re trying to get people away from habits that are bad for our emotional health. So the idea with this payphone is how can we get people to connect in a way that’s emotionally positive and healthy for our brains?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How does the payphone work exactly? So there’s one in San Francisco and then another elsewhere in the country?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, Matter Neuroscience bought two payphones on Facebook Marketplace, ripped out their guts, and outfitted them with SIM cards that basically turned them into cell phones. And they put one in San Francisco, and they put another in Abilene, Texas. So the idea was to connect two very politically different parts of our country. So San Francisco voted heavily for Kamala Harris in the 2024 presidential election. Abilene, Texas voted heavily for Donald Trump. Both cities are over 100,000 residents, so that was sort of the thinking of connecting America’s most, you know, I’m saying this in air quotes, most conservative city and most liberal city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Audio from outside the payphone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is anybody picking up? No. Oh, darn. That’s too bad. It might take a while. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so what happens is if you pick up the phone in San Francisco, it rings the phone in Texas. And the phone in Texas is located outside a bookstore in Abilene. Same thing, if you pick up the phone in Texas, it’ll ring the payphone in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you just wait basically for someone to pick up on the other side.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, you pick it up, it calls, and then it rings on the other side. And I was standing outside the payphone for a while and there were times when it was ringing and nobody picked up. There were other times when people walked by and they decided to pick it up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m so curious about the conversations that you heard folks having and also who was interested and engaging with this payphone. I know you met a woman named Maria out there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so Maria Gonzalez is a lifelong San Franciscan, lives pretty close to the payphone, and she was walking by, heard a ring, and decided to pick it up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh, really? Where? Where are you at? Oh, you just told me where you’re at. Yeah. You need to get out here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She ended up finding a Democrat in Texas or the person who called was a Democrat wanting to sort of commiserate about you know politics and say oh you know I want to be where you are essentially.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was nice to speak to somebody and we had similar ways of looking at life and so, you know, I mean every time you pick up the phone it’s going to be a different experience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She told me that the conversation that she had reminded her of sort of her own difficulties in her family speaking with the family members who are supporters of President Trump. She said her uncle is a quote Trumpster and that she tries to maintain a relationship with him but it’s hard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we have these discussions every time we speak, you know, and I love my uncle, I just don’t, we just don’t agree in our political views. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something that I think a lot of people feel is that it can be difficult to talk about politics when people have different views.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Gonzalez: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that we need something like this for sure. I was born and raised in San Francisco, so I grew up around a lot of different people with different ethnicities, going to different people’s houses and having food with them and experiencing their life. And I think that’s the best way that you can open up your mind if you live amongst people that are different from you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another man named Stephen Albert said that his twin sister is a Trump supporter and that he was put on this earth to cancel out her vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’re gonna play and listen to a snippet from a phone call between a 46 year old man in San Francisco and it turns out a 46-year-old woman in Abilene, Texas.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I’m Steve. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay. Hi, Steve.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s up? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Nothing much. Just looking for books. Classic books.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well this says ‘Call a Republican.’ Are you a Republican? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, I am.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, probably an independent I would say as I’ve got older independent Are you, what are you? Are you a Republican? Are you a Democrat? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh god, I don’t, I don’t I mean I live in San Francisco, you know.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So yeah, so you’re liberal, that’s fine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m pretty liberal. Okay. Yeah Yeah, I… do you see the world as crazy as I do? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I do, worse and worse every day. It’s getting worse every day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">See we have so much in common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I know, we do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love this clip so much because I feel like it’s so awkward in the beginning. They’re like, are you a liberal? I am a liberal. And then you feel this like sigh of relief when they both agree that the world is crazy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, they’re sort of tiptoeing around each other at the beginning, like being like, is this okay? And then they both like say like, yeah, I’m willing to have a conversation with you. And I thought it was interesting that the woman was like, you know, I am kind of Republican, but I’m kind of an independent. You know, there’s some of that nuance that you might not get in an online conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like I’m out here in the middle of the day and I’m about to have a delicious tuna salad sandwich and you’re shopping for books and neither of us are at work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I’m a stay-at-home mom, so I don’t work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’re a stay at home mom? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, with four kids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Four kids?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my God, how old are you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m 46. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m also 46. I have no kids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You have no kids… Hey, you’re living the life then, let me tell you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am living the live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m tied down forever. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, but you love it, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do love it. I do. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re also having the AI here, did you know that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>I did not know that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, so they’re building a huge AI center here. It’s one of the biggest in the, I guess in the world is coming, or they’ve already been building it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A data center?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, that’s right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Is that a positive impact? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, I would say there’s a lot more traffic. There’s a lotta more traffic\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it probably, what, takes a lot of energy and water to run a place like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh yeah, it’s going to be very interesting when it’s all done, what happens. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, it’s probably not being done for our benefit, is it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, probably not.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I love that they’re like learning from each other in this conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, and having, finding a commonality again, like San Francisco, we sort of live in the shadow of AI, and then right down there on Main Street, Texas, you’ve also got AI’s influence coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And you can hear her bringing it up because she knows that. She knows that him living in San Francisco is like, yeah, you live in AI capital of the world and it’s here too. Okay, and here’s another conversation between, as it turns out, two progressives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my gosh, Texas, and hell yeah. What’s it like over there? I’m a little scared for you guys. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, it’s OK. You’re in California? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, I always wanted to go there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, it’s amazing. What can I say, queer? Quite queer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, okay, so I have to tell you, I’m not a Republican.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, okay, okay. I was testing. That was a test. The queer thing was a task. I knew instantly when you said you wanted to go to San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, well, I have a trans, I have a trans child, so, yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have to say it quietly. I have say it really quietly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, yeah, I’d imagine, I would imagine. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh my god, I just love their energy. They’re just like, they just sound like two girls on the phone.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s all gonna be okay, it’s all going to be okay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, it’s all going to be okay. There’s so many amazing people in the world all across, no matter what state you’re in. The people of Texas, there’s some great hard-working people in Texas that you are ready to do the work to really turn some stuff around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s right. We’re going to get there. We are going to go there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No, and I believe in you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s like, it’s very fun. It’s a very odd situation when you’re put on the phone with a stranger and tasked with having a conversation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, it’s like that element of surprise that’s kind of fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like mystery box.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think another thing that you’re hearing is like, not everyone in Abilene is a Republican and not everyone in San Francisco is a Democrat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m glad I got to hear you. This is so beautiful. I don’t even know exactly what this phone thing is, but I, I, this is awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Unidentified Caller 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I talked to the bookstore owner in Texas and she said, yeah, a lot of the Democrats and Abilene have been like coming out of the woodwork and seeking out this payphone trying to find like-minded people, which could be sort of a little more challenging there. And in the same way, she said she’s picked up calls where San Francisco Republicans are calling looking to talk to like-minded folk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I mean, did you pick up the phone and try to talk to anyone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, I did. And you know, I have my journalist hat on, so people are like, well, are you a Republican or a Democrat? I’m like, I’m sort of a journalist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m a journalist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m not really supposed to have a political view when I’m working, but I did experience that same feeling of like, you’re a person in Texas and I grew up in San Francisco, I’ve lived here almost my whole life. I’ve never been to Texas. What’s that like? Like we’re part of the same country. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do wonder, Azul, just like after hearing some of these phone calls, I’m sure there were many, many more that we haven’t listened to, but do the folks who put this payphone out there, do they think that it did what it was supposed to do? Like, did it work? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the payphones were up for a month and they recorded around 200 conversations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What ended up happening was quite beautiful and quite affirming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I spoke to Ben Goldhirsh, he’s a co-founder of Matter Neuroscience, and he said listening to these conversations has been incredibly meaningful for him. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whatever the human topic is that allows us to actually connect, that’s what people gravitate towards. And people also gravitated away from kind of broad brushstrokes, like, oh, I’m a Republican, but don’t think that all of my positions are all on the right. I also believe in X and Y on the left side. I think people really pronounced the nuanced reality of their existence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, small sample size. Can we draw major conclusions from these conversations? I can’t say, but to him, I think it is proof that when people take the time to connect in a healthier way, there can be positive benefits. So when we get offline, we get on the phone or talk to somebody in person, it can be beneficial for us as humans and we can sort of break down some of these barriers that we might construct that prevent us from relating to each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Goldhirsh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think if you pulled an alien that was looking at America from, you know, a million miles away who was just digesting our news and our social media, and you said, hey, like, evaluate how far apart these people are, I think it would be reasonable to set a pretty wide delta. And I think when that alien listens to these conversations, they’ll be like, a lot of these are buds. These folks are all buds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they took the payphones down on Wednesday, right? Wednesday of last week. Do they plan to do this again? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Matter Neuroscience told me that they’re looking at other applications for the payphones that could have similar benefits for different populations. One idea is a senior center and a college campus to sort of unite people across generations. And the other idea is to go international with it. Unite people from different countries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you feel like it worked on you? I mean, like the purpose of this payphone. Are you convinced? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One question I have about this project is that, you know, there were around 200 conversations. This is a drop in the bucket compared to how many billions of people use social media every day. And this project was literally based on a payphone, like a piece of tech that does not exist anymore largely. It’s definitely going against the prevailing headwinds of how we’re communicating and how we are. The methods we’re increasingly turning to to get information out. But there is a lot of research to say that like social connection is good for us. And I did feel, I felt good when I talked to the payphone and it felt good to listen to people talking and it feel good to listened to these conversations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah and especially I feel like in this like world where we’re presumably more connected than ever with social media and stuff but actually like sometimes you just need to pick up the phone and talk to someone. Well Azul, this was such a fun story, thank you so much for sharing it with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, happy to be here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Payphone sound: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You are now being connected to the party line in Abilene, Texas. Participants must be 18 or older. This call may be recorded for use in a public project. By staying on the line, you consent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "floatright"
},
"numeric": [
"floatright"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman, a reporter for KQED. This conversation was cut down and edited by senior editor Alan Montecillo. Gabriela Glueck produced this episode, scored it, and added all the tape, music courtesy of Audio Network. Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild. American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, thank you so much for listening. Talk to you next time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/news/12074002/the-payphone-that-lets-san-franciscans-call-a-republican",
"authors": [
"8654",
"11785",
"11649",
"11946"
],
"categories": [
"news_28250",
"news_8"
],
"tags": [
"news_18538",
"news_176",
"news_33812",
"news_17968",
"news_386",
"news_38",
"news_21540",
"news_22598"
],
"featImg": "news_12073052",
"label": "source_news_12074002"
},
"news_12073645": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12073645",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073645",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1771412446000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "lessons-for-u-s-netizens-from-behind-chinas-great-firewall",
"title": "Lessons for U.S. Netizens from Behind China’s Great Firewall",
"publishDate": 1771412446,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Lessons for U.S. Netizens from Behind China’s Great Firewall | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you going through “a very Chinese time in your life”? If so, maybe you’re one of the many American social media users who’ve jumped on the Chinamaxxing trend (or…you’re Chinese). But it’s more than just slippers in the house and hot water at breakfast — as Western netizens experience increased surveillance and censorship across internet platforms, they are ironically turning to one of the most repressive regimes in the world for respite. On today’s episode, Morgan talks to Yi-Ling Liu, author of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/708614/the-wall-dancers-by-yi-ling-liu/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, about the Chinese government’s history of internet censorship, how online creativity has still flourished inside China’s “walled garden,” and what Americans have to learn from our neighbors in the East. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5900146793\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.yi-lingliu.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling Liu\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, writer and editor\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/708614/the-wall-dancers-by-yi-ling-liu/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Wall Dancers Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yi-Ling Liu\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/magazine/blued-china-gay-dating-app.html\">How a Dating App Helped a Generation of Chinese Come Out of the Closet\u003c/a> — Yi-Ling Liu, \u003ci>The New York Times Magazine\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/made-in-china-chinese-time-of-my-life/\">Why Everyone Is Suddenly in a ‘Very Chinese Time’ in Their Lives\u003c/a>\u003ci> —\u003c/i> Zeyi Yang and Louise Matsakis\u003ci>, \u003ci>Wired \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/tiktok-fixed-power-outage-not-censorship-work-views-down-rcna255964\">TikTok censorship claims spark California probe of app’s handling of anti-Trump content\u003c/a> — Kevin Collier and Bruna Horvath, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/feb/01/tiktok-first-week\">Why TikTok’s first week of American ownership was a disaster\u003c/a> — Blake Montgomery\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>, \u003ci>The Guardian\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://restofworld.org/2023/china-grindr-blued-gay-dating-app/\">China’s biggest gay dating app wants to beat Grindr\u003c/a> — Viola Zhou and Andrew Deck, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Rest of World\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://edition.cnn.com/2025/11/11/china/china-gay-dating-apps-removed-intl-hnk\">Two of China’s most popular gay dating apps have disappeared from app stores \u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>— \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>Chris Lau and Steven Jiang\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>, \u003ci>CNN \u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yesterday was the first day of the lunar new year. I grew up celebrating it as Chinese New Year, and this year is kind of funny. I don’t know if you’ve heard, but being Chinese is like, really in right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @kaynicole.m]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, I’ve been Chinese for about 90 minutes now, and so far these are the things that I’ve learned.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from Youtube user \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">@WillNeff\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been Chinamaxxing all day, feeling like a shu shu, you know what I mean? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @seanghedi\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Send this video to a friend that you met during a very Chinese time in your life\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @nurseblake/video\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To all the Chinese baddies who told us all to drink a cup of hot water in the morning, thank you! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“You’ve met me at a very Chinese time in my life.” Speaking from a Chinese American perspective, this trend is pretty loaded. Being Chinese, for a Chinese person, isn’t something you can really opt in and out of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to unpack these memes today, but first, let’s talk about when this obsession with China started. It goes back to just over a year ago, when TikTok went down in the United States. And we actually covered this in our very first episode of Close All Tabs. Some of you might remember when Americans fled to RedNote and called themselves TikTok refugees?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the Close All Tabs episode “TikTok’s Vibe Shift”]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dajia hao, Hi everybody! My name is Jeffrey, I’m a TikTok refugee. I’ve been practicing my Mandarin for a year now…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RedNote is also known by its Chinese name, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Xiǎohóngshū\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In January last year, the Supreme Court decided to uphold the law banning TikTok, unless its Chinese parent company ByteDance sold its U.S. assets and operations to an American company. So this mass migration of users from TikTok to another Chinese-owned app was like a collective middle finger to the U.S. government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account@bsant102]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ni hao, fine shyt \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok’s 14-hour shutdown actually led to some very sweet cultural exchange. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was delightful in a very earnest way, because this was the first time that I was seeing Chinese internet users. And, uh, American internet users actually engage with each other in this very direct way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling Liu is a writer and journalist covering technology and censorship in China. She’s also the author of a new book: The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet. Her book opens with this moment when TikTok went down and Americans went to RedNote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and they were like, genuinely curious about each other’s lives. Right? American users were volunteering English tutoring and Chinese users were like, demanding that they get paid a cat tax in return, which is like, essentially like, send me a cute photo of your, your cat. Um, and they were like flirting and like sharing jokes, So I, I just found it a to be a very beautiful moment of exchange \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok came back online in the United States the next morning, and returned with an ominous message crediting President Trump with “saving” the app. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of users noticed a kind vibe shift when TikTok returned — this sense that political content was being suppressed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, ByteDance finalized a deal to sell its U.S. operations of TikTok to a group of American investors which included some Trump allies. And now, users are noticing that their For You Pages seem different. Content about immigration protests, ICE raids, and anything critical of Trump seems to be censored. And many TikTok creators have raised concerns over the app’s new data collection policies.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This system of surveillance and censorship online is what Yi-Ling calls a “walled garden.” Chinese social media users have been living in one for decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People kind of assume that, um, it’s this like, complete barren landscape because of censorship, when in reality it’s this garden that’s just flowering with fauna and plants that are unique to its own cultural system and its own ecosystem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the flip side, people just assume that the American internet is this like, free and vast frontier, like, this open space where anyone can do whatever what they want. But increasingly we’re realizing it is also a walled garden in itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re talking about how China’s walled garden was built, and we’ll dive into the story of one particular bloom inside those walls. Also, we’re talking about what Americans can learn from Chinese netizens especially now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs, I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOk, let’s open a new tab: What is China’s great firewall? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling was born in 1995, two years before the British handover of Hong Kong back to China. And growing up in Hong Kong at that time, she had a very different understanding of censorship than someone growing up in mainland China. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Hong Kong in many ways is this faultline between two systems, both politically, culturally, but also online. And so, you know, moving back and forth between Hong Kong and the mainland and the U.S. where I ended up going to college, allowed me to straddle between these different divides and experience the internet ecosystems, both in mainland China and outside mainland China. And that has really shaped my worldview, being able to kind of be both an insider and outsider, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling didn’t understand the reality of China’s censorship until she was 15. She was interning at a state media newspaper in Beijing, and had written an article about Hong Kong’s literary magazine scene. One of the subjects of her article had mentioned the Tiananmen Square protests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when I brought this to my editor, she was like, oh, this absolutely cannot be included in your article.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not like her internship orientation included a list of explicitly forbidden topics. And growing up in Hong Kong, this had never been an issue for Yi-Ling. But those who grew up on the mainland had developed this sense for what was and wasn’t permitted to publish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things that makes this censorship in China so tricky to live under, is that it’s very vague and vagueness is very powerful because it means that there’s no guidebook. And so it’s almost like following a kind of intuitive gut instinct, of, oh, maybe I shouldn’t go there. Most people will censor themselves before they’re even censored. I think this was the first time that I felt the hand of the censor and that really galvanized me and sparked a question, which is what does it mean to actually write truthfully and with integrity from within the bounds of the firewall?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, let’s talk about this firewall. China got its first internet service provider in 1995. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was really exciting. Like, it was chaotic. It was overwhelming. It was, one of my friends described as, steamy, you know. Like it, it was this sense of wow, the entire world is opening up before me. Like, I can access things that I never could have accessed before. And you know, we see this in, in the lives of the subjects that I write about. So there’s this like overwhelming rush of information, I would say, just an incredible, incredible moment to be part of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But this rush of information also had the potential to destabilize the authority of the Chinese Communist Party. The Party controls all aspects of the government, and political opposition is not allowed. At the time, the state maintained a tight grip on all media in the country — newspapers, TV shows, radio and then, state officials cracked down on the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, you know, the Golden Shield project was created in 1997, and in some sense, the Chinese government was confronted with a dilemma. Right? The internet in their minds was this double edge sword. On one hand, it was gonna let in all this information that was gonna be a source of huge innovation. On the other hand, it was gonna be a huge source of instability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Golden Shield Project took two approaches to censorship. First, it blocked forbidden websites and certain IP addresses from outside the country. It also included a complex system of surveillance to flag and track anyone who posted politically sensitive content. In 1997, Wired magazine dubbed the censorship system, “The Great Firewall of China” — a play on the nearly 3,000 year old Great Wall of China. And over the last 30 years, the censorship system has become even more robust as technology advances. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s effective for its purposes. Right? The point of it was to prevent, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">um\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I would say at core collective action. And so if we were to follow that logic, it doesn’t really need to get rid of all information it doesn’t like. Like, if some information that’s even critical of government officials come in that’s okay. I think the thing that they’re really worried about is people gathering and mobilizing and in that sense it has been very successful, um, at stopping that from happening. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if success is measured in that way, yes. But if success is measured in terms of stifling vibrant, creative expression, um, turning China into kind of a barren landscape where everyone believes what the government believes, then no, I still think there’s like huge amounts of vibrant discourse, um, and creative expression even taking place within the bounds of the firewall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling refers to them as “the wall dancers” — the people who push the boundaries of creative expression even in this system of censorship. It comes from the phrase “dancing in shackles,” which Chinese journalists used in the early 2000s to describe what it’s like to report under state constraints. It’s not just journalists in this position, though. Musicians, writers, artists, entrepreneurs even have all pushed the limits of state censorship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To live in Chinese society is this vacillation between freedom and control. It is very contradictory. It’s very dynamic, this push and pull between state and society. And so I found myself really gravitating towards people, individuals who were very adept at navigating this terrain. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to go deep into the story of one of these dancers: Ma Baoli. He created one of the most popular gay dating apps not just in China, but in the world. And it all started with a blog in the 90s, when being gay was still a crime. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! Let’s get into the story of one particular wall dancer. His story will show us how people can learn to work the system — to survive and thrive under repression. And for that? We’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma Baoli, and the rise and fall of China’s gay dating app. We’re going back to the 90s. This story starts with a teenager. Here’s Yi-Ling Liu again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His name is Ma Baoli and he grew up in Qinhuangdao, which is a small town up in northern China by the sea. And he attended a police academy as a young student before joining the police bureau. He kind of started having crushes on boys. From his school textbooks, he realized that he was “homosexual” and, according to his textbook, this was a crime and an illness. So he kept his secret to himself, hoping that one day he would be cured. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Historically, Chinese culture didn’t condemn homosexuality. They weren’t celebrating being gay, but they also weren’t persecuting people for same-sex relationships. There are references to queer life throughout Chinese literature. One of the most famous ones, of the Emperor and his cut sleeve, is nearly 2,000 years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Really kind of strong, explicit repression only took place in the modern era after the 1900s through a combination of both, you know, Western influence as well as, the communist revolution, in the mid 1950s. Being gay was included under this broad umbrella of hooliganism, um, and considered a crime, uh, up until 1997. So it was only decriminalized in 1997, and it was only declassified as a mental illness until 2001. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: So \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up until the mid 90’s, when Ma Baoli was growing up, gay men and women were arrested, forced into conversion therapy, and even sent to labor camps.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eventually, Ma became a police officer. In 1998, a new internet cafe opened in his town, right next to the police bureau. He wandered in, and by chance, stumbled across a story posted by an anonymous writer. It was a romance, about two young men who fall in love and start an affair. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it was this hugely cathartic experience for him because he realized like, oh my gosh, I’m not alone; In this world there are other people who love like me. And it just opens up this portal into a whole array of other websites where he connects and, you know, reads about the experiences of gay men.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The internet was life changing for him. A few years later, he taught himself how to code and built his own website. He named it Dànlán, or Light Blue, after the sea in his hometown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a very kind of like bare bones, HTML, lots of ads, kind of blurry photos and at some point there was also like a chat function where people could message each other across, uh, different provinces and cities. I don’t know what their exact user base looked like, I would say maybe in the thousands at first, but it grew pretty quickly. Within like, five years, Ma had recruited five other young men who he found through the website to join the team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the early 2000s, same-sex relationships were decriminalized, but depictions of homosexuality were still prohibited. The site was repeatedly shut down for “violating public morality.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when they got shut down, they would have to, uh, get a new server, literally like buy a new server, shuttle a new server to a different location, which is something that’s very hard for us to like wrap our head around now, like literally moving a physical server. I had to like, get them to explain this to me many times. But say your server gets shut down in Qinhuangdao, you then like, apply for a server in Shanghai and you go and move that server to Shanghai and like, reapply for one there. You know, there’s this whole process of kind of like dodging different local and competing internet service providers and internet, um, bureau officials to try to, uh, what Ma called, you know, engage in guerilla warfare in some ways to keep the site alive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So those early days were really hard, but after 2008, is a big turning point for China, most crucially because of the Beijing Summer Olympics.They wanted the world to see it step onto the global stage as this modern, um, cosmopolitan country, this modern nation. And a lot of people at the time actually referred to this moment as China’s coming out party. which is funny because China’s coming out party just also happened to coincide with Ma Baoli decision to come out, or at least to, to come out to Beijing. And so I think this was a moment of liberalization for China, and this also translated into a moment of liberalization for China’s queer community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That summer, ahead of the Olympics, the newspaper People’s Daily published an article on Beijing’s burgeoning gay scene, and featured the hottest gay club in the city. People’s Daily was the biggest newspaper in China, and\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the official newspaper of the Chinese Communist Party. This was essentially the government’s mouthpiece, extolling Beijing’s queer community. And to top it off, the article even mentioned Ma’s website really positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And he was thrilled. He was really delighted and he thought, well, this is the time A, to move to Beijing, kind of like moving from a small town and to see what, uh, queer life is like there, to build up his team, to hire more and to see if he can kind of gain legitimacy, uh, in the eyes of authority. And his way of doing this was through orchestrating collaborations with the government.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma’s gay friends were very concerned about safe sex and had reached out to him with questions about HIV. This was 2010 — sex education wasn’t mandatory yet, and many of Ma’s gay friends didn’t know that condoms prevented more than just pregnancy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Chinese government was very concerned about transmission, but their efforts weren’t reaching gay people. Ma saw a way in. After all, he was the founder of China’s largest gay website.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so he literally just like, picked up the phone and called someone at the Center for Disease Control and was like, can you support me? And they agreed and that collaboration changed everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It started with an HIV testing site on the first floor of a Beijing gay club. China’s CDC gave him a small grant to run HIV screenings and distribute educational resources. That led to Danlan’s national partnership with the Ministry of Health. They opened testing centers across the country. Ma’s website became the go-to source for HIV education. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then in 2012, he was invited to a health conference with several high-ranking government officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Including the premier at the time, Li Keqiang. And when he was invited to this conference, he shook the premier’s hand, which was captured in a photograph. And this was a huge turning point for him. It’s definitely not a fair equivalent, but if like, RuPaul shook hands with Ronald Reagan. I think that’s definitely not a fair equivalent, but, you know, that was what it was what it looked like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma had been estranged from his parents since coming out, but that photograph convinced his mother that her son’s work wasn’t shameful at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That photograph is still in the office. That photograph is given to investors because it essentially was proof to anyone who sees this photo, like, I am legitimate, my company is legitimate, my cause is legitimate from one of the most powerful men in the party. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This stamp of approval was invaluable as Ma’s business grew. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a website Danlan had been very successful, but the world was moving toward apps. This American gay dating app called Jack’d was sweeping China’s queer scene. Like Grindr, Jack’d was location-based. Users in China called it the “Hookup King.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma jumped at the opportunity to make a Chinese version. And that handshake with the premier? It turned out to be really helpful for attracting investors to fund the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, he and a team of Danlan’s software engineers launched “Blued.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was essentially like a straight up copy of Jack’d. Um, and this was how a lot of Chinese apps were formed, you know, in the early 2010s. People like copycat apps essentially. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blued was a hit. It was so successful that Ma even considered buying Grindr, the preeminent queer hookup app. Blued expanded to other countries, and kept adding more features. It eventually became a whole queer social network, with a newsfeed, a livestreaming function, resources for HIV testing and education, Snapchat-like disappearing photo messaging, and chatrooms. At one point, Blued even ran a service to match aspiring gay fathers with potential surrogates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, other Chinese tech companies were trying to market specifically to gay people – trying to get in on what’s called the “pink economy.” Queer acceptance was growing – and it was profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But under the surface, the reality of gay rights was very different. Gay marriage wasn’t legal, and neither was adoption by same-sex couples. There were no openly gay government figures, and there was no protection against discrimination in the workplace. And attempts to establish institutional rights for gay people were heavily suppressed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say at its peak, you know, we were seeing a lot of gay content online. There was a really popular gay television show, as you were saying, all these companies were jumping on, uh, the pink economy bandwagon. The reality was, and I think this was what drove a lot of Ma Baoli’s logic when he was thinking about Blued, was that he was going to “build community without activism.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That he was going to, uh, create greater visibility for gay people in China, but specifically through the marketplace, like specifically through business. And this meant not veering into politics, not veering into protest, not veering into civil society activism. And this really reflected what the state of gay rights was like in China at the time, which is you can be gay. You can live however you choose to live as a queer person, as long as you don’t organize, like, as long as you don’t try to create community that agitates for rights or that pushes for activism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But around 2018, the tide had turned and this time, against China’s queer community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First I would say there was a much stronger crackdown on civil society. So a lot of LGBT groups were being shut down. A lot of, uh, LGBT activists were being told to stop doing their work or interrogated. Queer content was being scrubbed off the media. It was this clear shift towards a more patriarchal attitude towards gender and sexuality. And, um, there is like a promotion of like traditional marital norms, also part of an effort to get people to have more babies. So another part of it is like a fear of demographic decline, which was an issue in China. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Blued was already facing increased scrutiny from the government, even as the company skirted actual political advocacy for gay people. In 2020, Blued went public on the New York Stock Exchange. This was a huge deal, for a gay company to be recognized as legitimate not just in China, but also in the global marketplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, this was the peak of the COVID pandemic, and U.S.-China relations were souring. This coincided with the Party’s larger crackdown on tech companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Throughout the book I have mentioned these kind of waves of freedom and control or opening and tightening that’s actually taken place throughout the course of Chinese history. And I call this fang and shou. Fang being opening and shou being tightening. I think there was this sense that this like, freewheeling period of the mid 2000 and 2010’s where entrepreneurs were really emboldened to do whatever they want to, you know, start companies to raise funding to be innovative and bold was getting to kind of a fever pitch. So I think part of it was a sense of these tech moguls are getting out of hand. Like they need to remember, they need to fall in line and remember who the boss is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blued couldn’t turn a profit after going public — venture capital money wasn’t coming in like it used to, the stock price was plummeting, and the company struggled to monetize the app. So in 2022, Ma Baoli took the company private and delisted it from the New York Stock Exchange. To cover his losses, he sold a majority of Blued’s shares to another social media company, which asked him to resign as CEO. Then late last year, Blued was removed from the app store in China at the request of state regulators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s hard to say for sure exactly why it got taken down But I would say at the end of the day, it’s all linked to what I’ve been talking about. It’s all linked to this broader turn against, queer content and the shutting down and the silencing of queer voices in general in the public sphere.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma ended up moving back to his hometown by the sea, where it all started. For a while, he was depressed. But by the time Yi-Ling followed up with him for her book, he had already found a new purpose in his family, with his partner, their son, and Ma’s father all under the same roof for the first time. Despite the government’s mounting suppression of LGBTQ advocacy, Chinese society had changed — becoming more accepting of queer families than ever before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening now with TikTok isn’t really a one to one equivalent of the censorship and surveillance in China. But this walled garden of the American internet is becoming increasingly restrictive. So what can we learn from Chinese netizens? And what does this have to do with the internet’s new obsession with China? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab: You’ve met me at a very Chinese time in my life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This phrase became a meme late last year. It’s a twist on this line in the final scene of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fight Club. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the film Fight Club\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve met me at a very strange time in my life. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It blew up as this absurdist meme phrase online, kind of riding on the coattails of this other viral TikTok from a few years ago. It’s captioned, “When you get to heaven, but it’s Chinese.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from TikTok user@\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">papist_dalton\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No it’s fine, I just didn’t expect it to be Chinese. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to become Chinese has kind of, become a joke online. Speaking as a Chinese-American, I think a lot of the surface-level jokes are just orientalism repackaged into a meme format. No, drinking hot water and wearing slippers in the house does not make you Chinese. But then there’s this deeper side to this trend, where people are genuinely becoming interested in Chinese food, Chinese herbalism, Chinese city infrastructure, Chinese tech, Chinese languages, Chinese internet culture and memes, and most of all, Chinese high speed rail. Welcome to Chinamaxxing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely not.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back to last year, to when American TikTok refugees fled to RedNote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was just this like lovely irony to the whole situation, you know, for so many years the reverse was taking place like this desire to get out of the firewall and step into U.S. platforms and step into platforms outside of China. And now it was happening the other way around, like the American internet sphere had become, um, so boxed in and siloed that people we’re going into like literally the most, one of the more repressive internet spheres in the world to look for what they believe to be a, a freer, you know, a freer internet ecosystem. So the irony was hilarious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Americans are treating Red Note as like a lifeboat outta the censorship that they were experiencing. What do you think about that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To me it’s just a sign that the American internet is paradoxically starting to look a lot more like the Chinese one. That, you know, I think for a long time Americans kind of took for granted that their internet would remain free and open and unsiloed, but in fact, it’s not. Like, in fact, like a lot of decisions and the way people engage on platforms are dictated by a handful of tech moguls in Silicon Valley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, x, which used to be this like, uh, place that I think one journalist called it, like “throbbing networked intelligence,” where anyone who could say anything they want. This like, beautiful platform of democratic discourse is now like what some people call a hell site. Right? Where it’s just, at least when I open my x feed, it’s just like Andrew Tate YouTube videos, you know? And I didn’t even sign up for that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And a lot of, we don’t know how its algorithms or being decided, it could very well be, you know, shaped by the whims of Elon Musk, who also happens to be, even though he’s not a political leader, like one of the most powerful men in the world. So I think there’s this sense of Americans realizing that their internet actually kind of sucks. Um, and like the, the, the irony of it is they’re turning to an internet that also kind of sucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We eventually got TikTok back, um, even though who knows if it’ll stay in, you know, in the capacity that we have it in but that cultural exchange that we had that night did really plant a seed. And now everyone on the Western internet is obsessed with China. We’re all Chinamaxing. I mean, as part of the Chinese diaspora myself, I have very mixed feelings about this meme. But then again, why do you think that everyone is in such a “Chinese time” in their lives? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’ve been thinking about this a lot and kind of can unpack it. I think it’s part of a broader vibe shift that started with the TikTok refugees moving to Red Note and part of the vibe shift that started when DeepSeek was released in January of last year where a lot of Americans were kind of shocked by the power and the vibrancy of Chinese technology and freaking out. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it started with maybe like the chattering class. So a lot of like policy wonks, um, and Silicon Valley tech bros. And a lot of these guys were making like two week trips to China. You have like everyone from like Tom Friedman for the New York Times, Sador, Kash Patel, Silicon Valley podcasters, flocking to China and being like, oh my gosh, like, there are dancing humanoids and like, oh my gosh, high speed rail is so fast here. Or like, I, I have a TV screen in my Huawei car. And I think to me what I wanna point out is, is this discourse does really not reveal anything about China. Um, and it reveals a lot about America. Like it, when I speak to my friends in China, um, they don’t think their lives have really drastically changed over the past year, have become shinier or more incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like what has shifted is the American perspective. And it’s like, you know, Wired recently wrote a really great article, I think it was like Louise Matsakis and Zeyi Yang, um, where they said it, it isn’t really about China or or Chinese people. It’s a symbol of what Americans believe their country has lost.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s this sense of like, it being really, I think a projection like it being China becoming this mirror onto which American fears and dreams and desires are being projected on. And I think the U.S. is suddenly obsessed with China’s ability to build bridges, you know, and on TikTok you’re seeing all this kind of infrastructure porn, because they’re increasingly aware of their own dysfunction and America’s own ability, inability to build and the erosion of its political system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And suddenly China becomes just like more appealing as a result of that. Americans are looking at this like alien empire in some ways and realizing like, oh actually they’re kind of like us. Like we’re the same in many ways except their OS is at least functioning. Like at least they have functioning infrastructure, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> At least they have high speed rail.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. Exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The U.S. has several pieces of legislation in the works that do restrict speech online from age verification laws, potential repeal of section 230, de-platforming adult content, but framing it as child safety, uh, vetting social media profiles before letting people into the country. And I’ve seen a lot of people being like, oh, this is just like China. This is what China does. They’re really trying to make comparisons to Chinese state censorship. Are those comparisons misguided? Like what similarities are there here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The U.S. state is using a lot of tactics of control and surveillance and censorship that are starting to look very similar to what I see in China. I think for example, like a border control and going through, um, phones and social media accounts before allowing people to enter the country. That’s something that has taken place in China pretty frequently. And the fact that it’s taking place in the U.S. now is actually quite eerie and they are quite similar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that another similarity that I find quite startling is how big tech and the government are now working actually quite closely together to centralize power into their own hands. Like, that used to be something that I associated more with China, the fact that big tech companies would like, kowtow essentially to the party and do its bidding. When Trump was inaugurated last year, it was shocking to me to see, you know, the leaders of Meta and Apple and OpenAI essentially do the same thing and start speaking in the rhetoric of the administration.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for all its differences, I do think that both of the internets or and both of those societies are becoming increasingly illiberal and increasingly putting the hands of technological control in the hands of a small elite.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Despite the amount of surveillance and censorship that Chinese netizens have existed under online, Chinese internet culture is still fun. It’s still vibrant. There’s still so much happening and still ways that people do try to get around these, these firewalls. Given the state of, of the U.S. right now, what can American internet users learn from Chinese netizens?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think maybe U.S. netizens already know this,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">don’t assume that your internet is freewheeling and not subject to censorship. Like always assume to a certain extent that the information you’re getting may be filtered in some shape or form and it might not be through the government, but it may be through specific digital and algorithmic ecosystems that you’re already living in. That’s something that I think American internet users are starting to become more aware of in the way that it’s always been the sixth sense in China.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing that I would say is like, try to understand what other internet ecosystems look like outside of your own bubble. Because this also allows people to like, communicate and build solidarity across, um, different ecosystems and different platforms. And then lastly, it’s just like, be creative, and this is actually something that I do think American netizens have already, but like memes, viral slang, pushing it back against authority through jokes. Like, it’s both fun and extremely powerful. Like people really love a good joke and it brings people together and it creates solidarity and it creates like, a rallying cry around causes that you care about and I think Chinese people have always, um, turned to this during moments that they can’t come together because of various restraints. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Those are all my questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thank you for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To all my fellow Chinamaxxers: Happy New Year! Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Gabriela Glick with support from our show’s producer, Maya Cueva. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our team includes our editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor is Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. and\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "Author Yi-Ling Liu breaks down China's history of internet censorship and lessons U.S. netizens can take.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1772137127,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 107,
"wordCount": 7106
},
"headData": {
"title": "Lessons for U.S. Netizens from Behind China’s Great Firewall | KQED",
"description": "Are you going through “a very Chinese time in your life”? If so, maybe you’re one of the many American social media users who’ve jumped on the Chinamaxxing trend (or…you’re Chinese). But it’s more than just slippers in the house and hot water at breakfast — as Western netizens experience increased surveillance and censorship across internet platforms, they are ironically turning to one of the most repressive regimes in the world for respite. On today’s episode, Morgan talks to Yi-Ling Liu, author of The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet, about the Chinese government’s history of internet censorship, how online creativity has still flourished inside China’s “walled garden,” and what Americans have to learn from our neighbors in the East. ",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"socialDescription": "Are you going through “a very Chinese time in your life”? If so, maybe you’re one of the many American social media users who’ve jumped on the Chinamaxxing trend (or…you’re Chinese). But it’s more than just slippers in the house and hot water at breakfast — as Western netizens experience increased surveillance and censorship across internet platforms, they are ironically turning to one of the most repressive regimes in the world for respite. On today’s episode, Morgan talks to Yi-Ling Liu, author of The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet, about the Chinese government’s history of internet censorship, how online creativity has still flourished inside China’s “walled garden,” and what Americans have to learn from our neighbors in the East. ",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Lessons for U.S. Netizens from Behind China’s Great Firewall",
"datePublished": "2026-02-18T03:00:46-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-02-26T12:18:47-08:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 33520,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"source": "Close All Tabs",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"audioUrl": "https://traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC5900146793.mp3?updated=1771376014",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12073645",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12073645/lessons-for-u-s-netizens-from-behind-chinas-great-firewall",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Are you going through “a very Chinese time in your life”? If so, maybe you’re one of the many American social media users who’ve jumped on the Chinamaxxing trend (or…you’re Chinese). But it’s more than just slippers in the house and hot water at breakfast — as Western netizens experience increased surveillance and censorship across internet platforms, they are ironically turning to one of the most repressive regimes in the world for respite. On today’s episode, Morgan talks to Yi-Ling Liu, author of \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/708614/the-wall-dancers-by-yi-ling-liu/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, about the Chinese government’s history of internet censorship, how online creativity has still flourished inside China’s “walled garden,” and what Americans have to learn from our neighbors in the East. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5900146793\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guest:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.yi-lingliu.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling Liu\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, writer and editor\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/708614/the-wall-dancers-by-yi-ling-liu/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Wall Dancers Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Yi-Ling Liu\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/05/magazine/blued-china-gay-dating-app.html\">How a Dating App Helped a Generation of Chinese Come Out of the Closet\u003c/a> — Yi-Ling Liu, \u003ci>The New York Times Magazine\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/story/made-in-china-chinese-time-of-my-life/\">Why Everyone Is Suddenly in a ‘Very Chinese Time’ in Their Lives\u003c/a>\u003ci> —\u003c/i> Zeyi Yang and Louise Matsakis\u003ci>, \u003ci>Wired \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/tiktok-fixed-power-outage-not-censorship-work-views-down-rcna255964\">TikTok censorship claims spark California probe of app’s handling of anti-Trump content\u003c/a> — Kevin Collier and Bruna Horvath, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>NBC News\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/feb/01/tiktok-first-week\">Why TikTok’s first week of American ownership was a disaster\u003c/a> — Blake Montgomery\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>, \u003ci>The Guardian\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://restofworld.org/2023/china-grindr-blued-gay-dating-app/\">China’s biggest gay dating app wants to beat Grindr\u003c/a> — Viola Zhou and Andrew Deck, \u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>Rest of World\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://edition.cnn.com/2025/11/11/china/china-gay-dating-apps-removed-intl-hnk\">Two of China’s most popular gay dating apps have disappeared from app stores \u003c/a>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>— \u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>Chris Lau and Steven Jiang\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>\u003ci>, \u003ci>CNN \u003c/i>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/i>\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yesterday was the first day of the lunar new year. I grew up celebrating it as Chinese New Year, and this year is kind of funny. I don’t know if you’ve heard, but being Chinese is like, really in right now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @kaynicole.m]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, I’ve been Chinese for about 90 minutes now, and so far these are the things that I’ve learned.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from Youtube user \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">@WillNeff\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ve been Chinamaxxing all day, feeling like a shu shu, you know what I mean? \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @seanghedi\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Send this video to a friend that you met during a very Chinese time in your life\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @nurseblake/video\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To all the Chinese baddies who told us all to drink a cup of hot water in the morning, thank you! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“You’ve met me at a very Chinese time in my life.” Speaking from a Chinese American perspective, this trend is pretty loaded. Being Chinese, for a Chinese person, isn’t something you can really opt in and out of. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to unpack these memes today, but first, let’s talk about when this obsession with China started. It goes back to just over a year ago, when TikTok went down in the United States. And we actually covered this in our very first episode of Close All Tabs. Some of you might remember when Americans fled to RedNote and called themselves TikTok refugees?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the Close All Tabs episode “TikTok’s Vibe Shift”]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dajia hao, Hi everybody! My name is Jeffrey, I’m a TikTok refugee. I’ve been practicing my Mandarin for a year now…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RedNote is also known by its Chinese name, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Xiǎohóngshū\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. In January last year, the Supreme Court decided to uphold the law banning TikTok, unless its Chinese parent company ByteDance sold its U.S. assets and operations to an American company. So this mass migration of users from TikTok to another Chinese-owned app was like a collective middle finger to the U.S. government. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account@bsant102]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ni hao, fine shyt \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok’s 14-hour shutdown actually led to some very sweet cultural exchange. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was delightful in a very earnest way, because this was the first time that I was seeing Chinese internet users. And, uh, American internet users actually engage with each other in this very direct way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling Liu is a writer and journalist covering technology and censorship in China. She’s also the author of a new book: The Wall Dancers: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet. Her book opens with this moment when TikTok went down and Americans went to RedNote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and they were like, genuinely curious about each other’s lives. Right? American users were volunteering English tutoring and Chinese users were like, demanding that they get paid a cat tax in return, which is like, essentially like, send me a cute photo of your, your cat. Um, and they were like flirting and like sharing jokes, So I, I just found it a to be a very beautiful moment of exchange \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok came back online in the United States the next morning, and returned with an ominous message crediting President Trump with “saving” the app. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of users noticed a kind vibe shift when TikTok returned — this sense that political content was being suppressed. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last month, ByteDance finalized a deal to sell its U.S. operations of TikTok to a group of American investors which included some Trump allies. And now, users are noticing that their For You Pages seem different. Content about immigration protests, ICE raids, and anything critical of Trump seems to be censored. And many TikTok creators have raised concerns over the app’s new data collection policies.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This system of surveillance and censorship online is what Yi-Ling calls a “walled garden.” Chinese social media users have been living in one for decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People kind of assume that, um, it’s this like, complete barren landscape because of censorship, when in reality it’s this garden that’s just flowering with fauna and plants that are unique to its own cultural system and its own ecosystem.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">On the flip side, people just assume that the American internet is this like, free and vast frontier, like, this open space where anyone can do whatever what they want. But increasingly we’re realizing it is also a walled garden in itself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re talking about how China’s walled garden was built, and we’ll dive into the story of one particular bloom inside those walls. Also, we’re talking about what Americans can learn from Chinese netizens especially now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Close All Tabs, I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOk, let’s open a new tab: What is China’s great firewall? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling was born in 1995, two years before the British handover of Hong Kong back to China. And growing up in Hong Kong at that time, she had a very different understanding of censorship than someone growing up in mainland China. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Hong Kong in many ways is this faultline between two systems, both politically, culturally, but also online. And so, you know, moving back and forth between Hong Kong and the mainland and the U.S. where I ended up going to college, allowed me to straddle between these different divides and experience the internet ecosystems, both in mainland China and outside mainland China. And that has really shaped my worldview, being able to kind of be both an insider and outsider, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling didn’t understand the reality of China’s censorship until she was 15. She was interning at a state media newspaper in Beijing, and had written an article about Hong Kong’s literary magazine scene. One of the subjects of her article had mentioned the Tiananmen Square protests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when I brought this to my editor, she was like, oh, this absolutely cannot be included in your article.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not like her internship orientation included a list of explicitly forbidden topics. And growing up in Hong Kong, this had never been an issue for Yi-Ling. But those who grew up on the mainland had developed this sense for what was and wasn’t permitted to publish. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the things that makes this censorship in China so tricky to live under, is that it’s very vague and vagueness is very powerful because it means that there’s no guidebook. And so it’s almost like following a kind of intuitive gut instinct, of, oh, maybe I shouldn’t go there. Most people will censor themselves before they’re even censored. I think this was the first time that I felt the hand of the censor and that really galvanized me and sparked a question, which is what does it mean to actually write truthfully and with integrity from within the bounds of the firewall?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, let’s talk about this firewall. China got its first internet service provider in 1995. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was really exciting. Like, it was chaotic. It was overwhelming. It was, one of my friends described as, steamy, you know. Like it, it was this sense of wow, the entire world is opening up before me. Like, I can access things that I never could have accessed before. And you know, we see this in, in the lives of the subjects that I write about. So there’s this like overwhelming rush of information, I would say, just an incredible, incredible moment to be part of.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But this rush of information also had the potential to destabilize the authority of the Chinese Communist Party. The Party controls all aspects of the government, and political opposition is not allowed. At the time, the state maintained a tight grip on all media in the country — newspapers, TV shows, radio and then, state officials cracked down on the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, you know, the Golden Shield project was created in 1997, and in some sense, the Chinese government was confronted with a dilemma. Right? The internet in their minds was this double edge sword. On one hand, it was gonna let in all this information that was gonna be a source of huge innovation. On the other hand, it was gonna be a huge source of instability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Golden Shield Project took two approaches to censorship. First, it blocked forbidden websites and certain IP addresses from outside the country. It also included a complex system of surveillance to flag and track anyone who posted politically sensitive content. In 1997, Wired magazine dubbed the censorship system, “The Great Firewall of China” — a play on the nearly 3,000 year old Great Wall of China. And over the last 30 years, the censorship system has become even more robust as technology advances. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s effective for its purposes. Right? The point of it was to prevent, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">um\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I would say at core collective action. And so if we were to follow that logic, it doesn’t really need to get rid of all information it doesn’t like. Like, if some information that’s even critical of government officials come in that’s okay. I think the thing that they’re really worried about is people gathering and mobilizing and in that sense it has been very successful, um, at stopping that from happening. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if success is measured in that way, yes. But if success is measured in terms of stifling vibrant, creative expression, um, turning China into kind of a barren landscape where everyone believes what the government believes, then no, I still think there’s like huge amounts of vibrant discourse, um, and creative expression even taking place within the bounds of the firewall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yi-Ling refers to them as “the wall dancers” — the people who push the boundaries of creative expression even in this system of censorship. It comes from the phrase “dancing in shackles,” which Chinese journalists used in the early 2000s to describe what it’s like to report under state constraints. It’s not just journalists in this position, though. Musicians, writers, artists, entrepreneurs even have all pushed the limits of state censorship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To live in Chinese society is this vacillation between freedom and control. It is very contradictory. It’s very dynamic, this push and pull between state and society. And so I found myself really gravitating towards people, individuals who were very adept at navigating this terrain. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re going to go deep into the story of one of these dancers: Ma Baoli. He created one of the most popular gay dating apps not just in China, but in the world. And it all started with a blog in the 90s, when being gay was still a crime. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a new tab … but first, a quick break. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re back! Let’s get into the story of one particular wall dancer. His story will show us how people can learn to work the system — to survive and thrive under repression. And for that? We’re opening a new tab: \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma Baoli, and the rise and fall of China’s gay dating app. We’re going back to the 90s. This story starts with a teenager. Here’s Yi-Ling Liu again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His name is Ma Baoli and he grew up in Qinhuangdao, which is a small town up in northern China by the sea. And he attended a police academy as a young student before joining the police bureau. He kind of started having crushes on boys. From his school textbooks, he realized that he was “homosexual” and, according to his textbook, this was a crime and an illness. So he kept his secret to himself, hoping that one day he would be cured. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Historically, Chinese culture didn’t condemn homosexuality. They weren’t celebrating being gay, but they also weren’t persecuting people for same-sex relationships. There are references to queer life throughout Chinese literature. One of the most famous ones, of the Emperor and his cut sleeve, is nearly 2,000 years old. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Really kind of strong, explicit repression only took place in the modern era after the 1900s through a combination of both, you know, Western influence as well as, the communist revolution, in the mid 1950s. Being gay was included under this broad umbrella of hooliganism, um, and considered a crime, uh, up until 1997. So it was only decriminalized in 1997, and it was only declassified as a mental illness until 2001. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: So \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up until the mid 90’s, when Ma Baoli was growing up, gay men and women were arrested, forced into conversion therapy, and even sent to labor camps.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Eventually, Ma became a police officer. In 1998, a new internet cafe opened in his town, right next to the police bureau. He wandered in, and by chance, stumbled across a story posted by an anonymous writer. It was a romance, about two young men who fall in love and start an affair. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And it was this hugely cathartic experience for him because he realized like, oh my gosh, I’m not alone; In this world there are other people who love like me. And it just opens up this portal into a whole array of other websites where he connects and, you know, reads about the experiences of gay men.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The internet was life changing for him. A few years later, he taught himself how to code and built his own website. He named it Dànlán, or Light Blue, after the sea in his hometown. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a very kind of like bare bones, HTML, lots of ads, kind of blurry photos and at some point there was also like a chat function where people could message each other across, uh, different provinces and cities. I don’t know what their exact user base looked like, I would say maybe in the thousands at first, but it grew pretty quickly. Within like, five years, Ma had recruited five other young men who he found through the website to join the team.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the early 2000s, same-sex relationships were decriminalized, but depictions of homosexuality were still prohibited. The site was repeatedly shut down for “violating public morality.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when they got shut down, they would have to, uh, get a new server, literally like buy a new server, shuttle a new server to a different location, which is something that’s very hard for us to like wrap our head around now, like literally moving a physical server. I had to like, get them to explain this to me many times. But say your server gets shut down in Qinhuangdao, you then like, apply for a server in Shanghai and you go and move that server to Shanghai and like, reapply for one there. You know, there’s this whole process of kind of like dodging different local and competing internet service providers and internet, um, bureau officials to try to, uh, what Ma called, you know, engage in guerilla warfare in some ways to keep the site alive. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So those early days were really hard, but after 2008, is a big turning point for China, most crucially because of the Beijing Summer Olympics.They wanted the world to see it step onto the global stage as this modern, um, cosmopolitan country, this modern nation. And a lot of people at the time actually referred to this moment as China’s coming out party. which is funny because China’s coming out party just also happened to coincide with Ma Baoli decision to come out, or at least to, to come out to Beijing. And so I think this was a moment of liberalization for China, and this also translated into a moment of liberalization for China’s queer community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That summer, ahead of the Olympics, the newspaper People’s Daily published an article on Beijing’s burgeoning gay scene, and featured the hottest gay club in the city. People’s Daily was the biggest newspaper in China, and\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the official newspaper of the Chinese Communist Party. This was essentially the government’s mouthpiece, extolling Beijing’s queer community. And to top it off, the article even mentioned Ma’s website really positively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And he was thrilled. He was really delighted and he thought, well, this is the time A, to move to Beijing, kind of like moving from a small town and to see what, uh, queer life is like there, to build up his team, to hire more and to see if he can kind of gain legitimacy, uh, in the eyes of authority. And his way of doing this was through orchestrating collaborations with the government.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma’s gay friends were very concerned about safe sex and had reached out to him with questions about HIV. This was 2010 — sex education wasn’t mandatory yet, and many of Ma’s gay friends didn’t know that condoms prevented more than just pregnancy. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Chinese government was very concerned about transmission, but their efforts weren’t reaching gay people. Ma saw a way in. After all, he was the founder of China’s largest gay website.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so he literally just like, picked up the phone and called someone at the Center for Disease Control and was like, can you support me? And they agreed and that collaboration changed everything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It started with an HIV testing site on the first floor of a Beijing gay club. China’s CDC gave him a small grant to run HIV screenings and distribute educational resources. That led to Danlan’s national partnership with the Ministry of Health. They opened testing centers across the country. Ma’s website became the go-to source for HIV education. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then in 2012, he was invited to a health conference with several high-ranking government officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Including the premier at the time, Li Keqiang. And when he was invited to this conference, he shook the premier’s hand, which was captured in a photograph. And this was a huge turning point for him. It’s definitely not a fair equivalent, but if like, RuPaul shook hands with Ronald Reagan. I think that’s definitely not a fair equivalent, but, you know, that was what it was what it looked like. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma had been estranged from his parents since coming out, but that photograph convinced his mother that her son’s work wasn’t shameful at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That photograph is still in the office. That photograph is given to investors because it essentially was proof to anyone who sees this photo, like, I am legitimate, my company is legitimate, my cause is legitimate from one of the most powerful men in the party. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This stamp of approval was invaluable as Ma’s business grew. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As a website Danlan had been very successful, but the world was moving toward apps. This American gay dating app called Jack’d was sweeping China’s queer scene. Like Grindr, Jack’d was location-based. Users in China called it the “Hookup King.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma jumped at the opportunity to make a Chinese version. And that handshake with the premier? It turned out to be really helpful for attracting investors to fund the app. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, he and a team of Danlan’s software engineers launched “Blued.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was essentially like a straight up copy of Jack’d. Um, and this was how a lot of Chinese apps were formed, you know, in the early 2010s. People like copycat apps essentially. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blued was a hit. It was so successful that Ma even considered buying Grindr, the preeminent queer hookup app. Blued expanded to other countries, and kept adding more features. It eventually became a whole queer social network, with a newsfeed, a livestreaming function, resources for HIV testing and education, Snapchat-like disappearing photo messaging, and chatrooms. At one point, Blued even ran a service to match aspiring gay fathers with potential surrogates.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, other Chinese tech companies were trying to market specifically to gay people – trying to get in on what’s called the “pink economy.” Queer acceptance was growing – and it was profitable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But under the surface, the reality of gay rights was very different. Gay marriage wasn’t legal, and neither was adoption by same-sex couples. There were no openly gay government figures, and there was no protection against discrimination in the workplace. And attempts to establish institutional rights for gay people were heavily suppressed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would say at its peak, you know, we were seeing a lot of gay content online. There was a really popular gay television show, as you were saying, all these companies were jumping on, uh, the pink economy bandwagon. The reality was, and I think this was what drove a lot of Ma Baoli’s logic when he was thinking about Blued, was that he was going to “build community without activism.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That he was going to, uh, create greater visibility for gay people in China, but specifically through the marketplace, like specifically through business. And this meant not veering into politics, not veering into protest, not veering into civil society activism. And this really reflected what the state of gay rights was like in China at the time, which is you can be gay. You can live however you choose to live as a queer person, as long as you don’t organize, like, as long as you don’t try to create community that agitates for rights or that pushes for activism. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But around 2018, the tide had turned and this time, against China’s queer community. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> First I would say there was a much stronger crackdown on civil society. So a lot of LGBT groups were being shut down. A lot of, uh, LGBT activists were being told to stop doing their work or interrogated. Queer content was being scrubbed off the media. It was this clear shift towards a more patriarchal attitude towards gender and sexuality. And, um, there is like a promotion of like traditional marital norms, also part of an effort to get people to have more babies. So another part of it is like a fear of demographic decline, which was an issue in China. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Blued was already facing increased scrutiny from the government, even as the company skirted actual political advocacy for gay people. In 2020, Blued went public on the New York Stock Exchange. This was a huge deal, for a gay company to be recognized as legitimate not just in China, but also in the global marketplace. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Unfortunately, this was the peak of the COVID pandemic, and U.S.-China relations were souring. This coincided with the Party’s larger crackdown on tech companies, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Throughout the book I have mentioned these kind of waves of freedom and control or opening and tightening that’s actually taken place throughout the course of Chinese history. And I call this fang and shou. Fang being opening and shou being tightening. I think there was this sense that this like, freewheeling period of the mid 2000 and 2010’s where entrepreneurs were really emboldened to do whatever they want to, you know, start companies to raise funding to be innovative and bold was getting to kind of a fever pitch. So I think part of it was a sense of these tech moguls are getting out of hand. Like they need to remember, they need to fall in line and remember who the boss is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Blued couldn’t turn a profit after going public — venture capital money wasn’t coming in like it used to, the stock price was plummeting, and the company struggled to monetize the app. So in 2022, Ma Baoli took the company private and delisted it from the New York Stock Exchange. To cover his losses, he sold a majority of Blued’s shares to another social media company, which asked him to resign as CEO. Then late last year, Blued was removed from the app store in China at the request of state regulators. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s hard to say for sure exactly why it got taken down But I would say at the end of the day, it’s all linked to what I’ve been talking about. It’s all linked to this broader turn against, queer content and the shutting down and the silencing of queer voices in general in the public sphere.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ma ended up moving back to his hometown by the sea, where it all started. For a while, he was depressed. But by the time Yi-Ling followed up with him for her book, he had already found a new purpose in his family, with his partner, their son, and Ma’s father all under the same roof for the first time. Despite the government’s mounting suppression of LGBTQ advocacy, Chinese society had changed — becoming more accepting of queer families than ever before. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s happening now with TikTok isn’t really a one to one equivalent of the censorship and surveillance in China. But this walled garden of the American internet is becoming increasingly restrictive. So what can we learn from Chinese netizens? And what does this have to do with the internet’s new obsession with China? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open one more tab: You’ve met me at a very Chinese time in my life. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This phrase became a meme late last year. It’s a twist on this line in the final scene of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fight Club. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the film Fight Club\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You’ve met me at a very strange time in my life. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It blew up as this absurdist meme phrase online, kind of riding on the coattails of this other viral TikTok from a few years ago. It’s captioned, “When you get to heaven, but it’s Chinese.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from TikTok user@\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">papist_dalton\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No it’s fine, I just didn’t expect it to be Chinese. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to become Chinese has kind of, become a joke online. Speaking as a Chinese-American, I think a lot of the surface-level jokes are just orientalism repackaged into a meme format. No, drinking hot water and wearing slippers in the house does not make you Chinese. But then there’s this deeper side to this trend, where people are genuinely becoming interested in Chinese food, Chinese herbalism, Chinese city infrastructure, Chinese tech, Chinese languages, Chinese internet culture and memes, and most of all, Chinese high speed rail. Welcome to Chinamaxxing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Absolutely not.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s go back to last year, to when American TikTok refugees fled to RedNote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There was just this like lovely irony to the whole situation, you know, for so many years the reverse was taking place like this desire to get out of the firewall and step into U.S. platforms and step into platforms outside of China. And now it was happening the other way around, like the American internet sphere had become, um, so boxed in and siloed that people we’re going into like literally the most, one of the more repressive internet spheres in the world to look for what they believe to be a, a freer, you know, a freer internet ecosystem. So the irony was hilarious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Americans are treating Red Note as like a lifeboat outta the censorship that they were experiencing. What do you think about that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To me it’s just a sign that the American internet is paradoxically starting to look a lot more like the Chinese one. That, you know, I think for a long time Americans kind of took for granted that their internet would remain free and open and unsiloed, but in fact, it’s not. Like, in fact, like a lot of decisions and the way people engage on platforms are dictated by a handful of tech moguls in Silicon Valley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, x, which used to be this like, uh, place that I think one journalist called it, like “throbbing networked intelligence,” where anyone who could say anything they want. This like, beautiful platform of democratic discourse is now like what some people call a hell site. Right? Where it’s just, at least when I open my x feed, it’s just like Andrew Tate YouTube videos, you know? And I didn’t even sign up for that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And a lot of, we don’t know how its algorithms or being decided, it could very well be, you know, shaped by the whims of Elon Musk, who also happens to be, even though he’s not a political leader, like one of the most powerful men in the world. So I think there’s this sense of Americans realizing that their internet actually kind of sucks. Um, and like the, the, the irony of it is they’re turning to an internet that also kind of sucks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We eventually got TikTok back, um, even though who knows if it’ll stay in, you know, in the capacity that we have it in but that cultural exchange that we had that night did really plant a seed. And now everyone on the Western internet is obsessed with China. We’re all Chinamaxing. I mean, as part of the Chinese diaspora myself, I have very mixed feelings about this meme. But then again, why do you think that everyone is in such a “Chinese time” in their lives? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’ve been thinking about this a lot and kind of can unpack it. I think it’s part of a broader vibe shift that started with the TikTok refugees moving to Red Note and part of the vibe shift that started when DeepSeek was released in January of last year where a lot of Americans were kind of shocked by the power and the vibrancy of Chinese technology and freaking out. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think it started with maybe like the chattering class. So a lot of like policy wonks, um, and Silicon Valley tech bros. And a lot of these guys were making like two week trips to China. You have like everyone from like Tom Friedman for the New York Times, Sador, Kash Patel, Silicon Valley podcasters, flocking to China and being like, oh my gosh, like, there are dancing humanoids and like, oh my gosh, high speed rail is so fast here. Or like, I, I have a TV screen in my Huawei car. And I think to me what I wanna point out is, is this discourse does really not reveal anything about China. Um, and it reveals a lot about America. Like it, when I speak to my friends in China, um, they don’t think their lives have really drastically changed over the past year, have become shinier or more incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like what has shifted is the American perspective. And it’s like, you know, Wired recently wrote a really great article, I think it was like Louise Matsakis and Zeyi Yang, um, where they said it, it isn’t really about China or or Chinese people. It’s a symbol of what Americans believe their country has lost.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So there’s this sense of like, it being really, I think a projection like it being China becoming this mirror onto which American fears and dreams and desires are being projected on. And I think the U.S. is suddenly obsessed with China’s ability to build bridges, you know, and on TikTok you’re seeing all this kind of infrastructure porn, because they’re increasingly aware of their own dysfunction and America’s own ability, inability to build and the erosion of its political system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And suddenly China becomes just like more appealing as a result of that. Americans are looking at this like alien empire in some ways and realizing like, oh actually they’re kind of like us. Like we’re the same in many ways except their OS is at least functioning. Like at least they have functioning infrastructure, you know?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> At least they have high speed rail.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Exactly. Exactly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The U.S. has several pieces of legislation in the works that do restrict speech online from age verification laws, potential repeal of section 230, de-platforming adult content, but framing it as child safety, uh, vetting social media profiles before letting people into the country. And I’ve seen a lot of people being like, oh, this is just like China. This is what China does. They’re really trying to make comparisons to Chinese state censorship. Are those comparisons misguided? Like what similarities are there here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The U.S. state is using a lot of tactics of control and surveillance and censorship that are starting to look very similar to what I see in China. I think for example, like a border control and going through, um, phones and social media accounts before allowing people to enter the country. That’s something that has taken place in China pretty frequently. And the fact that it’s taking place in the U.S. now is actually quite eerie and they are quite similar.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think that another similarity that I find quite startling is how big tech and the government are now working actually quite closely together to centralize power into their own hands. Like, that used to be something that I associated more with China, the fact that big tech companies would like, kowtow essentially to the party and do its bidding. When Trump was inaugurated last year, it was shocking to me to see, you know, the leaders of Meta and Apple and OpenAI essentially do the same thing and start speaking in the rhetoric of the administration.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So for all its differences, I do think that both of the internets or and both of those societies are becoming increasingly illiberal and increasingly putting the hands of technological control in the hands of a small elite.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Despite the amount of surveillance and censorship that Chinese netizens have existed under online, Chinese internet culture is still fun. It’s still vibrant. There’s still so much happening and still ways that people do try to get around these, these firewalls. Given the state of, of the U.S. right now, what can American internet users learn from Chinese netizens?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think maybe U.S. netizens already know this,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">don’t assume that your internet is freewheeling and not subject to censorship. Like always assume to a certain extent that the information you’re getting may be filtered in some shape or form and it might not be through the government, but it may be through specific digital and algorithmic ecosystems that you’re already living in. That’s something that I think American internet users are starting to become more aware of in the way that it’s always been the sixth sense in China.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The other thing that I would say is like, try to understand what other internet ecosystems look like outside of your own bubble. Because this also allows people to like, communicate and build solidarity across, um, different ecosystems and different platforms. And then lastly, it’s just like, be creative, and this is actually something that I do think American netizens have already, but like memes, viral slang, pushing it back against authority through jokes. Like, it’s both fun and extremely powerful. Like people really love a good joke and it brings people together and it creates solidarity and it creates like, a rallying cry around causes that you care about and I think Chinese people have always, um, turned to this during moments that they can’t come together because of various restraints. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Those are all my questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you Morgan.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thank you for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Yi-Ling Liu:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To all my fellow Chinamaxxers: Happy New Year! Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Gabriela Glick with support from our show’s producer, Maya Cueva. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s director of podcasts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our team includes our editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor is Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Additional music by APM. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brendan Willard is our audio engineer. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. and\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would really help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.KQED.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
}
],
"link": "/news/12073645/lessons-for-u-s-netizens-from-behind-chinas-great-firewall",
"authors": [
"11944",
"11946",
"11943",
"11809",
"11832",
"11869"
],
"programs": [
"news_35082"
],
"categories": [
"news_33520"
],
"tags": [
"news_20759",
"news_18378",
"news_35092",
"news_3137",
"news_31079",
"news_34646",
"news_1631"
],
"featImg": "news_12073646",
"label": "source_news_12073645"
},
"news_12073611": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12073611",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073611",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1771412439000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "kaiser-strike-enters-its-fourth-week",
"title": "Kaiser Strike Enters Its Fourth Week",
"publishDate": 1771412439,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Kaiser Strike Enters Its Fourth Week | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>Nearly 31,000 health care workers with the United Nurses Associations of California/Union of Health Care Professionals have been on strike for the last four weeks. Nurses, physicians assistants, pharmacists and other workers at Kaiser Permanente say that their wages have not kept up with inflation and that their workloads have negatively impacted patient care. As the strike drags on and negotiations continue to stall, more patients face canceled surgeries and appointments without an end in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4078420376\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:33] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Outside of Kaiser Oakland on Monday, Kaiser Permanente nurses, physicians assistants, and other workers stood out in the rain to hold the picket line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Picket Line: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:53] \u003c/em>Thank you. Be safe in the rain. Let’s get this contract done!\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:03] \u003c/em>It’s been four weeks since tens of thousands of Kaiser workers who make up the backbone of patient care for the company began striking over staffing and pay, including Chris Pyper, a physicians assistant at the Kaiser in San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Pyper: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:22] \u003c/em>It just kind of feels like they’ve forgotten the healthcare workers who are doing a lot of the patient care. I’m basically using up savings that I’ve had, hoping that this is going to produce a good contract and I’m willing to stay out as long as we need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:40] \u003c/em>Workers also have larger concerns over the direction of the company. Kaiser is the largest non-profit health insurer in the country. And employees say that as Kaiser has grown, their work has gotten harder and harder. Today, we talk with KQED labor correspondent, Farida Javala Romero, about the Kaiser strike and what it means for patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:21] \u003c/em>This is a large strike, even for a very large company like Kaiser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:29] \u003c/em>Farida Javala-Romero is a labor correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:33] \u003c/em>So this particular strike involves up to 31,000 employees in California. Most of them are based in Southern California, but there are some happening in Northern California as well. It’s made up of nurses, including nurse anesthetists, physicians assistants, physical therapists, midwives. And then in Southern California, there’s also pharmacists and other very key healthcare workers. They’re key people for operations and surgeries. So we’ve heard of some surgeries being delayed. And so I wanted to speak with Kaiser patients who are facing some of these disruptions in care because of the strike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:25] \u003c/em>Honestly, when the scheduler first called me and told me about it, I sobbed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:31] \u003c/em>So I spoke with folks like Kayla Howell in San Jose. She was going to have surgery to repair her torn ACL.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:39] \u003c/em>Having that taken away you realize like oh my god i use my leg for everything going to the bathroom taking a shower is extremely difficult and painful\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:48] \u003c/em>And so she was one of the folks who got a call saying, this thing is gonna be delayed until March.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:55] \u003c/em>I’ve never had surgery before. It’s kind of a big thing. And so in my head, I was like, OK, this is what I’m going to do. I’m ready for it. You know, I’m preparing myself. It’s going to happen on this day. And then to have that, like, snatched away from me just like five days before it’s supposed to happen. I was, like Oh, that’s like a big paradigm shift, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:13] \u003c/em>Her mom was gonna travel from abroad to care for her. Her mom couldn’t change her ticket to come to the U.S. To help her and her lodging. It just seemed like there were so many ripple effects just for one patient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:27] \u003c/em>When Kaiser said they’re canceling non-essential surgeries, like before I would think like, oh, non-essential, like plastic surgery, stuff that like people don’t really like need, you know, but like I need my mobility and I need to my legs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:41] \u003c/em>Some of the people that wrote to us, you know, to tell us about their stories, they had hip replacement surgeries, you know where everything hurts, like it hurts to get in and out of their car. They told me that they’ve been waiting for these surgeries for months already to get on the schedule. So this, you now, additional delay hit really hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:02] \u003c/em>I mean, that’s a huge inconvenience for people I can’t imagine. And we are already on week four which feels that feels pretty long to me is that long I guess in comparison to these other strikes that you’ve been talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:18] \u003c/em>Yeah, I think so. Since September, this is the third time they’ve gone on strike. But the previous strikes were limited duration, so they lasted one day or five days. And they said ahead of time how long it was going to last, which helps the employer prepare and also for people to know what’s going to happen. With this situation we have now, the stakes are higher because this could go on for a lot longer. It seems like many of these issues, at least from the employee’s perspective, are not getting resolved. And a lot of them have to do with staffing levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sanne Jacobsen: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:06] \u003c/em>I’ve been here for 14 years, I really am honestly at this point feeling like I work for an investment bank that poses as a healthcare organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:17] \u003c/em>Sanne Jacobson, I met her outside of the Oakland Medical Center. It was the first day of this strike on January 26. And she’s part of the bargaining committee. So they’re looking for more input into their scheduling, the number of patients that they see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sanne Jacobsen: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:36] \u003c/em>You get providers that are double and triple booked and they can’t adequately provide care for the patients. And they suffer moral injury when they go to work and they can’t practice like they are supposed to be practicing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:50] \u003c/em>What she, and this is echoing what a lot of other folks have told me at Picket Lines, is that increasing pressure to see more and more patients, they feel like they need to rush more to see more patients. They’re seeing their patients have to wait longer to be able to return to come see them for follow-up visits. And then from Kaiser’s perspective, they have been, for months, dismissing any claims that their patient care quality is sliding. And that there aren’t enough staffers to see patients. They say they meet all of the staffing levels that are required. And so, at least from workers’ perspective, the company is focusing on wages and wage increases, but not so much talking about the staffing problems that workers see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:38] \u003c/em>So would you say that’s like, the main sticking point for workers in this particular strike? This feeling that they’re just a little overwhelmed with low staffing compared to the number of patients they have to take care of, and that wages maybe actually isn’t the number one issue for them?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:58] \u003c/em>I think it’s all connected. We can say that compensation and staffing levels are the two top issues. And those are nationwide top concerns for nurses and other healthcare workers. And when we’re talking about wages in this particular strike, the union wants a 25% increase over four years and Kaiser has drawn the line at 21.5%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:31] \u003c/em>Well, I wanna zoom out a little bit from this strike because I feel like I’ve seen a lot of strikes from Kaiser workers lately. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:39] \u003c/em>We have seen several strikes in the last few years as these contracts expire and Kaiser is in negotiations for a new contract with different unions. This is a company where many of their employees, I think it’s more than 130,000, are unionized. And I think that goes back to this central conflict that we’re seeing for a company like Kaiser, which is. Employees feel like the company is moving away from its mission as a nonprofit, and that instead the company has expanded to new states, building new facilities, buying hospitals, and investing the revenues they’re getting from their health insurance business into growing. Meanwhile, the employees feel like they’ve been sort of left behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Logan: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:09:36] \u003c/em>What’s happening at Kaiser in some ways reflects what’s happening in terms of the structure of the healthcare industry at the national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:09:45] \u003c/em>John Logan chairs the Labor Studies Department at San Francisco State University. He’s a really interesting person to talk to about the strike because he’s kept an eye on Kaiser for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Logan: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:01] \u003c/em>You know, the one thing about the Kaiser partnership that’s existed now for over 25 years, nurses, technicians, others had a great deal more say over working conditions, scheduling, and those types of things. And that’s what a lot of the workers say has been eroded in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:22] \u003c/em>The mission of Kaiser is to reinvest all of its revenues into patient care and their facilities. But employees, many of them who’ve worked at Kaiser for more than 10 years, they see the company as changing, they describe it as more corporate, more top-down, and I think that’s some of the conflict that we’re seeing now. It’s making billions of dollars in net income. It has really large reserves. That Kaiser says it needs to deal with long-term commitments, like pensions and building maintenance, and have enough money in case there’s another emergency, like a pandemic. And employees say, hey, this company has a lot of money. How come they’re not investing in their workforce and improving patient care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:14] \u003c/em>It sounds like employees are feeling like they have to shoulder a lot of this growth that is happening in Kaiser without necessarily getting the support to do that. What is Kaiser saying in response?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:28] \u003c/em>What they’ve said in their public statements is that Kaiser is a great health care provider, that they have a really good model benefiting patients, and that they’re trying their best to meet the demand of Kaiser customers or members, which is what they call them. They have not really addressed these employee big concerns about staffing, about scheduling problems. We have not been able to get an interview with like a Kaiser executive or a representative to really dig into you know how they’re thinking about their reality and this you know labor conflict they have now. And then what we talked about earlier that the policies of the federal government are giving health care executives a really uncertain financial picture for the next couple of years. At companies like Kaiser, which is a health insurer and health provider. I mean, this means they could see a lot less money from people not being able to buy insurance or losing their health insurance, at the same time that they could higher costs from uninsured folks coming to hospitals for care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:42] \u003c/em>Well, I want to come back to Kayla who has the torn ACL. I mean, we’re four weeks into the strike now. I imagine she’s watching this all very, very closely. Do you have any sense of what public support is like from people like Kayla who are directly affected?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:03] \u003c/em>Kayla and other patients I spoke with, they all feel like they need the strike to be resolved as soon as possible so that they can get the care that they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:15] \u003c/em>We live in one of the richest countries in the world. I pay my health insurance and I pay my premiums and where is that money going to? I just wish they would figure out a way to resolve it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:27] \u003c/em>I think many of these folks sympathize with the employees and they want Kaiser to treat this as a very urgent matter and, you know, come to some deal. I think from both sides, but definitely when you go talk to people at the picket line, they really feel for the patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:47] \u003c/em>What is it going to take for this to end and when could it end?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:52] \u003c/em>So, there’s a national contract for all of these workers. And then there are locals in each of the regions where workers are represented. And Kaiser, at this point, is refusing to meet with national union negotiators. And there is some bargaining at the local level. What the union folks have told me is that the strike is not going to be resolved without a national contract, or that would be the easiest way for Kaiser to resolve it. The conflict has gone to such a bad place on both sides that you have the employer saying, we’re not going to deal with these national union negotiators anymore. And so we’re just going to try to resolve everything at the local level. And meanwhile, the union is saying, ‘That’s illegal. No, you have to talk to us.’\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:14:45] \u003c/em>Do you see any parallels between this Kaiser strike and the teacher strike that just ended in San Francisco last week?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:14:53] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, so much right now with these big conflicts we’re seeing are about affordability. For example, the Kaiser employees on strike say that during the pandemic, they agreed to much smaller wage increases because Kaiser had some big financial and other challenges, as many health systems did. And so now they feel like it’s a time to catch up and to really try to keep up with inflation and the high prices of everything. And then in San Francisco, with the teachers… It was a similar big issue, which is people feel like they can’t afford to live, you know, where do they work in San Francisco? And so the big topic over all of this is affordability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:47] \u003c/em>And the teachers were talking about not being able to afford their health care\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:50] \u003c/em>Health insurance right.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:55] \u003c/em>Farida, thank you so much for breaking this down. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:57] \u003c/em>Thank you, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "As the strike drags on and negotiations continue to stall, more patients face canceled surgeries and appointments without an end in sight. ",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1771521363,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 50,
"wordCount": 2731
},
"headData": {
"title": "Kaiser Strike Enters Its Fourth Week | KQED",
"description": "As the strike drags on and negotiations continue to stall, more patients face canceled surgeries and appointments without an end in sight. ",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Kaiser Strike Enters Its Fourth Week",
"datePublished": "2026-02-18T03:00:39-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-02-19T09:16:03-08:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 34551,
"slug": "labor",
"name": "Labor"
},
"source": "The Bay",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC4078420376.mp3",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12073611",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12073611/kaiser-strike-enters-its-fourth-week",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Nearly 31,000 health care workers with the United Nurses Associations of California/Union of Health Care Professionals have been on strike for the last four weeks. Nurses, physicians assistants, pharmacists and other workers at Kaiser Permanente say that their wages have not kept up with inflation and that their workloads have negatively impacted patient care. As the strike drags on and negotiations continue to stall, more patients face canceled surgeries and appointments without an end in sight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4078420376\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:33] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Outside of Kaiser Oakland on Monday, Kaiser Permanente nurses, physicians assistants, and other workers stood out in the rain to hold the picket line.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Picket Line: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:53] \u003c/em>Thank you. Be safe in the rain. Let’s get this contract done!\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:03] \u003c/em>It’s been four weeks since tens of thousands of Kaiser workers who make up the backbone of patient care for the company began striking over staffing and pay, including Chris Pyper, a physicians assistant at the Kaiser in San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Pyper: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:22] \u003c/em>It just kind of feels like they’ve forgotten the healthcare workers who are doing a lot of the patient care. I’m basically using up savings that I’ve had, hoping that this is going to produce a good contract and I’m willing to stay out as long as we need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:40] \u003c/em>Workers also have larger concerns over the direction of the company. Kaiser is the largest non-profit health insurer in the country. And employees say that as Kaiser has grown, their work has gotten harder and harder. Today, we talk with KQED labor correspondent, Farida Javala Romero, about the Kaiser strike and what it means for patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:21] \u003c/em>This is a large strike, even for a very large company like Kaiser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:29] \u003c/em>Farida Javala-Romero is a labor correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:33] \u003c/em>So this particular strike involves up to 31,000 employees in California. Most of them are based in Southern California, but there are some happening in Northern California as well. It’s made up of nurses, including nurse anesthetists, physicians assistants, physical therapists, midwives. And then in Southern California, there’s also pharmacists and other very key healthcare workers. They’re key people for operations and surgeries. So we’ve heard of some surgeries being delayed. And so I wanted to speak with Kaiser patients who are facing some of these disruptions in care because of the strike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:25] \u003c/em>Honestly, when the scheduler first called me and told me about it, I sobbed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:31] \u003c/em>So I spoke with folks like Kayla Howell in San Jose. She was going to have surgery to repair her torn ACL.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:39] \u003c/em>Having that taken away you realize like oh my god i use my leg for everything going to the bathroom taking a shower is extremely difficult and painful\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:48] \u003c/em>And so she was one of the folks who got a call saying, this thing is gonna be delayed until March.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:55] \u003c/em>I’ve never had surgery before. It’s kind of a big thing. And so in my head, I was like, OK, this is what I’m going to do. I’m ready for it. You know, I’m preparing myself. It’s going to happen on this day. And then to have that, like, snatched away from me just like five days before it’s supposed to happen. I was, like Oh, that’s like a big paradigm shift, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:13] \u003c/em>Her mom was gonna travel from abroad to care for her. Her mom couldn’t change her ticket to come to the U.S. To help her and her lodging. It just seemed like there were so many ripple effects just for one patient.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:27] \u003c/em>When Kaiser said they’re canceling non-essential surgeries, like before I would think like, oh, non-essential, like plastic surgery, stuff that like people don’t really like need, you know, but like I need my mobility and I need to my legs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:41] \u003c/em>Some of the people that wrote to us, you know, to tell us about their stories, they had hip replacement surgeries, you know where everything hurts, like it hurts to get in and out of their car. They told me that they’ve been waiting for these surgeries for months already to get on the schedule. So this, you now, additional delay hit really hard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:02] \u003c/em>I mean, that’s a huge inconvenience for people I can’t imagine. And we are already on week four which feels that feels pretty long to me is that long I guess in comparison to these other strikes that you’ve been talking about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:18] \u003c/em>Yeah, I think so. Since September, this is the third time they’ve gone on strike. But the previous strikes were limited duration, so they lasted one day or five days. And they said ahead of time how long it was going to last, which helps the employer prepare and also for people to know what’s going to happen. With this situation we have now, the stakes are higher because this could go on for a lot longer. It seems like many of these issues, at least from the employee’s perspective, are not getting resolved. And a lot of them have to do with staffing levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sanne Jacobsen: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:06] \u003c/em>I’ve been here for 14 years, I really am honestly at this point feeling like I work for an investment bank that poses as a healthcare organization.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:17] \u003c/em>Sanne Jacobson, I met her outside of the Oakland Medical Center. It was the first day of this strike on January 26. And she’s part of the bargaining committee. So they’re looking for more input into their scheduling, the number of patients that they see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sanne Jacobsen: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:36] \u003c/em>You get providers that are double and triple booked and they can’t adequately provide care for the patients. And they suffer moral injury when they go to work and they can’t practice like they are supposed to be practicing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:50] \u003c/em>What she, and this is echoing what a lot of other folks have told me at Picket Lines, is that increasing pressure to see more and more patients, they feel like they need to rush more to see more patients. They’re seeing their patients have to wait longer to be able to return to come see them for follow-up visits. And then from Kaiser’s perspective, they have been, for months, dismissing any claims that their patient care quality is sliding. And that there aren’t enough staffers to see patients. They say they meet all of the staffing levels that are required. And so, at least from workers’ perspective, the company is focusing on wages and wage increases, but not so much talking about the staffing problems that workers see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:38] \u003c/em>So would you say that’s like, the main sticking point for workers in this particular strike? This feeling that they’re just a little overwhelmed with low staffing compared to the number of patients they have to take care of, and that wages maybe actually isn’t the number one issue for them?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:58] \u003c/em>I think it’s all connected. We can say that compensation and staffing levels are the two top issues. And those are nationwide top concerns for nurses and other healthcare workers. And when we’re talking about wages in this particular strike, the union wants a 25% increase over four years and Kaiser has drawn the line at 21.5%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:31] \u003c/em>Well, I wanna zoom out a little bit from this strike because I feel like I’ve seen a lot of strikes from Kaiser workers lately. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:39] \u003c/em>We have seen several strikes in the last few years as these contracts expire and Kaiser is in negotiations for a new contract with different unions. This is a company where many of their employees, I think it’s more than 130,000, are unionized. And I think that goes back to this central conflict that we’re seeing for a company like Kaiser, which is. Employees feel like the company is moving away from its mission as a nonprofit, and that instead the company has expanded to new states, building new facilities, buying hospitals, and investing the revenues they’re getting from their health insurance business into growing. Meanwhile, the employees feel like they’ve been sort of left behind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Logan: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:09:36] \u003c/em>What’s happening at Kaiser in some ways reflects what’s happening in terms of the structure of the healthcare industry at the national level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:09:45] \u003c/em>John Logan chairs the Labor Studies Department at San Francisco State University. He’s a really interesting person to talk to about the strike because he’s kept an eye on Kaiser for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Logan: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:01] \u003c/em>You know, the one thing about the Kaiser partnership that’s existed now for over 25 years, nurses, technicians, others had a great deal more say over working conditions, scheduling, and those types of things. And that’s what a lot of the workers say has been eroded in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:22] \u003c/em>The mission of Kaiser is to reinvest all of its revenues into patient care and their facilities. But employees, many of them who’ve worked at Kaiser for more than 10 years, they see the company as changing, they describe it as more corporate, more top-down, and I think that’s some of the conflict that we’re seeing now. It’s making billions of dollars in net income. It has really large reserves. That Kaiser says it needs to deal with long-term commitments, like pensions and building maintenance, and have enough money in case there’s another emergency, like a pandemic. And employees say, hey, this company has a lot of money. How come they’re not investing in their workforce and improving patient care?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:14] \u003c/em>It sounds like employees are feeling like they have to shoulder a lot of this growth that is happening in Kaiser without necessarily getting the support to do that. What is Kaiser saying in response?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:28] \u003c/em>What they’ve said in their public statements is that Kaiser is a great health care provider, that they have a really good model benefiting patients, and that they’re trying their best to meet the demand of Kaiser customers or members, which is what they call them. They have not really addressed these employee big concerns about staffing, about scheduling problems. We have not been able to get an interview with like a Kaiser executive or a representative to really dig into you know how they’re thinking about their reality and this you know labor conflict they have now. And then what we talked about earlier that the policies of the federal government are giving health care executives a really uncertain financial picture for the next couple of years. At companies like Kaiser, which is a health insurer and health provider. I mean, this means they could see a lot less money from people not being able to buy insurance or losing their health insurance, at the same time that they could higher costs from uninsured folks coming to hospitals for care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:42] \u003c/em>Well, I want to come back to Kayla who has the torn ACL. I mean, we’re four weeks into the strike now. I imagine she’s watching this all very, very closely. Do you have any sense of what public support is like from people like Kayla who are directly affected?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:03] \u003c/em>Kayla and other patients I spoke with, they all feel like they need the strike to be resolved as soon as possible so that they can get the care that they need.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kayla Howell: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:15] \u003c/em>We live in one of the richest countries in the world. I pay my health insurance and I pay my premiums and where is that money going to? I just wish they would figure out a way to resolve it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:27] \u003c/em>I think many of these folks sympathize with the employees and they want Kaiser to treat this as a very urgent matter and, you know, come to some deal. I think from both sides, but definitely when you go talk to people at the picket line, they really feel for the patients.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:47] \u003c/em>What is it going to take for this to end and when could it end?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:13:52] \u003c/em>So, there’s a national contract for all of these workers. And then there are locals in each of the regions where workers are represented. And Kaiser, at this point, is refusing to meet with national union negotiators. And there is some bargaining at the local level. What the union folks have told me is that the strike is not going to be resolved without a national contract, or that would be the easiest way for Kaiser to resolve it. The conflict has gone to such a bad place on both sides that you have the employer saying, we’re not going to deal with these national union negotiators anymore. And so we’re just going to try to resolve everything at the local level. And meanwhile, the union is saying, ‘That’s illegal. No, you have to talk to us.’\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:14:45] \u003c/em>Do you see any parallels between this Kaiser strike and the teacher strike that just ended in San Francisco last week?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:14:53] \u003c/em>Yeah, I mean, so much right now with these big conflicts we’re seeing are about affordability. For example, the Kaiser employees on strike say that during the pandemic, they agreed to much smaller wage increases because Kaiser had some big financial and other challenges, as many health systems did. And so now they feel like it’s a time to catch up and to really try to keep up with inflation and the high prices of everything. And then in San Francisco, with the teachers… It was a similar big issue, which is people feel like they can’t afford to live, you know, where do they work in San Francisco? And so the big topic over all of this is affordability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:47] \u003c/em>And the teachers were talking about not being able to afford their health care\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:50] \u003c/em>Health insurance right.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:55] \u003c/em>Farida, thank you so much for breaking this down. I appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "floatright"
},
"numeric": [
"floatright"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Farida Jhabvala Romero: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:15:57] \u003c/em>Thank you, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/news/12073611/kaiser-strike-enters-its-fourth-week",
"authors": [
"8654",
"8659",
"11946",
"11649"
],
"categories": [
"news_34551",
"news_8"
],
"tags": [
"news_35118",
"news_33812",
"news_421",
"news_19904",
"news_24590",
"news_22598"
],
"featImg": "news_12071095",
"label": "source_news_12073611"
},
"news_12073361": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12073361",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073361",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1770980448000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "keeping-venezuelan-culture-alive-through-dance",
"title": "Keeping Venezuelan Culture Alive Through Dance",
"publishDate": 1770980448,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Keeping Venezuelan Culture Alive Through Dance | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>The Venezuelan diaspora in the Bay Area is relatively small. Of the estimated 770,000 Venezuelan natives living in the United States in 2024, only about 23,000 — or 3% — are in California, according to the Migration Policy Institute. But as the country’s political turmoil continues to make headlines, a nonprofit called Dulce Tricolor Venezolano is committed to keeping their culture alive and building community through teaching traditional dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8890158140&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072776/venezuelan-dance-group-in-the-bay-area-keeps-culture-alive-for-a-new-ge\">Venezuelan Dance Group in the Bay Area Keeps Culture Alive for a New Generation\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/k-onda\">Subscribe to KQED’s K Onda newsletter\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dulcetricolor.com/#7456f354-83e8-4f0e-9cb1-dea9903bc5ca\">Dulce Tricolor Venezolano\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:57] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Inside a dance studio in Campbell, a group of adults and kids are draped in white skirts and shirts with red, blue, and yellow accents and floral headpieces. There’s a Venezuelan flag on the wall and everyone is practicing traditional dances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:28] \u003c/em>I was interested in just learning more about the Venezuelan diaspora here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:35] \u003c/em>This is my colleague Blanca Torres. She’s a reporter and producer here at KQED, and she went out to visit this dance studio for Que onda, KQEd’s monthly newsletter spotlighting the Bay’s Latinx community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:54] \u003c/em>I am of Mexican descent and feel pretty represented in the Bay Area, but I know that other groups that don’t have as big of numbers in the Latino community are often overshadowed or just don’t really have a big presence here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:11] \u003c/em>The Bay Area has a relatively small Venezuelan population, with an estimated 23,000 Venezuelans in California. So Blanca wanted to know, what does community look like for the Venezuelans who are here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:29] \u003c/em>I learned a lot about just what it’s been like for Venezuelan people to have a country that was once very prosperous and just see it disintegrate politically, socially, economically. And now Venezuelans are spread all over the world. It’s a very fragmented community for Venezualans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:48] \u003c/em>At Dulce Tricolor Venezolano, Venezuelans gather with that very specific understanding of fragmentation, of displacement, and they find belonging in that and connect through dance. So today we’re going to take you inside a dance class with Dulce Tricolor to hear about what this group means to the Bay’s Venezuelan community, in their own words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:29] \u003c/em>So I’m Michelle Paulin and I’m the founder and executive director of Dulce Tricolor Venezuela. Dulce is sweet. These are sweet, cute, beautiful cats, so that’s where the Dulce came. And Tricolor is our flag, it’s yellow, blue and red, so it’s the tricolor of the flag. So Dulce, Tricolor, Venezuelano came from that. It’s an organization that is showing the cuteness within the country, the beautiful, the sweet of the country. And we have this flag that we feel proud of. We’re teaching traditional Venezuelan music. So in Venezuela, there are all sort of rhythms, like if you talk to the new generation, that will be merengue and salsa and reggaeton. But we also within Venezuela grow all the time listening to Joropo. That’s a traditional Venezuan dance. Listening to tambores, there is no party without tambores. And when you are a kid at school, there are always these end of the year performances. And the different grades are assigned different music that they learn. So what we are teaching us is reminding me and my older friends of when we were kids and we were at school and we had to perform the joropo or the tambores. And then that’s what we decided to do. Let’s rescue that traditional music that is still as part of parties, et cetera, but teach them the traditional steps. Well, for me, the first time I found my community, I was walking at the supermarket, and somebody hear me talking, and she approached me and she said, you are Venezuelan? Yeah, I’m Venezuelana. And she’s like, oh, come and join this WhatsApp group. And I feel the place you grew up actually define a lot of who you are. And despite, as I said, I have friends from everywhere, but being close to Venezuelans gives me a special fulfillment. I get out of being with people that speak the same language and the same culture, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:39] \u003c/em> We decided that we wanted to make sure that our kids, some of them born in the U.S., some of the born in Venezuela, were able to carry on with the traditions that we have in Venezuela. We wanted to teach them about what Venezuela meant, how Venezuelans felt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sounds from the dance class: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:58] \u003c/em>Y diciendo viva dulce tricolor venezolano!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:08] \u003c/em>Although we speak Spanish at home and we eat arepas and all the stuff, having something more structured was better. We started back in 2019 just as, okay, friends, let’s go and practice. Let’s go dance. And we started instructing them. And then, unfortunately, six months later, COVID happened. And I was like, oh my God, what do we do now? We said we didn’t want to stop it. So we actually set classes on Zoom. And then we pivot a little bit. We were doing dance, but also Venezuelan traditional games, talking about traditions. And then when we were able to come back in person, we actually did, we started doing it in the park. We didn’t want to lose what we started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:48] \u003c/em>My name is Lara Miras and I’m 10 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:51] \u003c/em>My name Katarina Boscon and I am 11 years old and I think I’ve been since the dance company actually started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:01] \u003c/em>I think it is such a wonderful thing to be able to share your culture through dance. I really like dancing and being with my friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:12] \u003c/em>When you’re in the older levels, you get to create your own dance, and it’s really fun, especially through the community and all the friends. I really like those that take a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:22] \u003c/em>Well it’s definitely a life changing experience because not only do you get to represent your country and the people you love and dance for, but you also get to share a community and it’s very loving and inspiring. It will definitely change your life because when I came here I didn’t, we had like not many friends, but like once you enter it’s really good because of that community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:50] \u003c/em>I feel proud of being Venezuelan because I love eating arepas. The things that I do not like is that I don’t like how social they are. It’s too overly social, but I like arepas and panadas going to the beach and I like the parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sounds from the dance class: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:07] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:11] \u003c/em>It’s uncommon and I’m proud to be uncommon because I get people when I was asking at my school like, oh your friend is good, what is his like, do you like the food, everything. Well I was born there but I don’t remember much. It feels like it’s such a big country but it feels like everyone knows each other there because they’re so kind. I would really recommend you to go to at least one or two shows and at least see, especially our new exclusive dances that we’re practicing. It’s going to blow your mind, and also the costumes and the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:48] \u003c/em>We bring songs to our shows that express what Venezuela is and what we hope for Venezuela. So in this event, we have plans to sing two of those songs. So one is called ‘My Illusions,’ and it refers to having all your hope and illusions in a country that hasn’t been in the best positions of all right now, but is moving towards a positive future. And the other one is call Venezuela. And it’s not the national song, but it’s kind of the national sound. Wherever you go, somebody lives in Venezuela and you cannot stop just crying. Because it just spreads the feelings of people that were born there and how you experience your country and how, no matter what, at the end of life, you want to be one way or another one back to Venezuela. I have family still in Venezuela, so I keep connected. There is still a lot of repression internally. They cannot really openly talk about what’s happening and interchange WhatsApp messages. Like my WhatsApp messages with my family in Venezuela are filled of prayers and good news because they cannot talk about was happening. While my conversation with my friends here is different. It’s like, okay, well, what’s happenin’? I saw this on the news. This is happenin’. Look at what this person say. So we have freedom of speech, which they don’t have there. So the way we feel that we support them… Being here in the U.S. Is by, again, like keeping Venezuela alive and making sure that people don’t only listen to the bad side of the news, but also to what Venezuela was and hopefully will be soon enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:29] \u003c/em>What do you think is important for people who aren’t from Venezuela to know about Venezuela?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:35] \u003c/em>Just know that even apart from like all the news breaking, Venezuela is still a wonderful and beautiful place where you can go and enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:43] \u003c/em>It’s important for me to be exposed from Venezuela because I do not want to forget to learn the language and I do not want forget the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:52] \u003c/em>I’d like to see the community growing, while at the same time I also feel a little nervous about some part of that community came with the TPS and those figures that were created to protect Venezuelans. And now they’re struggling a little bit because they’re in a situation where it’s not well defined. Where are they? Are they standing in safe ground or not? So that’s also a little worrisome and give us the need to also help where we can. We don’t know what the future will bring. We don’t really know if the future will be better or not, based on what happened recently. But give people, again, that hope, that feeling that hopefully we’re gonna be dancing this Oroppo in Venezuela sometime soon. But giving that space for people to express, again, let the feelings flow because it’s conflicting right now. We bring songs to our shows. That express what Venezuela is and what we hope for Venezuela. But the main objective is to get a space to express our feelings about what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "As the country’s political turmoil continues to make headlines, a nonprofit called Dulce Tricolor Venezolano is committed to keeping their culture alive and building community through teaching traditional dance.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1771017875,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 31,
"wordCount": 2035
},
"headData": {
"title": "Keeping Venezuelan Culture Alive Through Dance | KQED",
"description": "As the country’s political turmoil continues to make headlines, a nonprofit called Dulce Tricolor Venezolano is committed to keeping their culture alive and building community through teaching traditional dance.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Keeping Venezuelan Culture Alive Through Dance",
"datePublished": "2026-02-13T03:00:48-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-02-13T13:24:35-08:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 8,
"slug": "news",
"name": "News"
},
"source": "The Bay",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC8890158140.mp3",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12073361",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12073361/keeping-venezuelan-culture-alive-through-dance",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>The Venezuelan diaspora in the Bay Area is relatively small. Of the estimated 770,000 Venezuelan natives living in the United States in 2024, only about 23,000 — or 3% — are in California, according to the Migration Policy Institute. But as the country’s political turmoil continues to make headlines, a nonprofit called Dulce Tricolor Venezolano is committed to keeping their culture alive and building community through teaching traditional dance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8890158140&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12072776/venezuelan-dance-group-in-the-bay-area-keeps-culture-alive-for-a-new-ge\">Venezuelan Dance Group in the Bay Area Keeps Culture Alive for a New Generation\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/k-onda\">Subscribe to KQED’s K Onda newsletter\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://dulcetricolor.com/#7456f354-83e8-4f0e-9cb1-dea9903bc5ca\">Dulce Tricolor Venezolano\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:57] \u003c/em>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Inside a dance studio in Campbell, a group of adults and kids are draped in white skirts and shirts with red, blue, and yellow accents and floral headpieces. There’s a Venezuelan flag on the wall and everyone is practicing traditional dances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:28] \u003c/em>I was interested in just learning more about the Venezuelan diaspora here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:35] \u003c/em>This is my colleague Blanca Torres. She’s a reporter and producer here at KQED, and she went out to visit this dance studio for Que onda, KQEd’s monthly newsletter spotlighting the Bay’s Latinx community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:54] \u003c/em>I am of Mexican descent and feel pretty represented in the Bay Area, but I know that other groups that don’t have as big of numbers in the Latino community are often overshadowed or just don’t really have a big presence here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:11] \u003c/em>The Bay Area has a relatively small Venezuelan population, with an estimated 23,000 Venezuelans in California. So Blanca wanted to know, what does community look like for the Venezuelans who are here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Blanca Torres: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:29] \u003c/em>I learned a lot about just what it’s been like for Venezuelan people to have a country that was once very prosperous and just see it disintegrate politically, socially, economically. And now Venezuelans are spread all over the world. It’s a very fragmented community for Venezualans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:48] \u003c/em>At Dulce Tricolor Venezolano, Venezuelans gather with that very specific understanding of fragmentation, of displacement, and they find belonging in that and connect through dance. So today we’re going to take you inside a dance class with Dulce Tricolor to hear about what this group means to the Bay’s Venezuelan community, in their own words.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:29] \u003c/em>So I’m Michelle Paulin and I’m the founder and executive director of Dulce Tricolor Venezuela. Dulce is sweet. These are sweet, cute, beautiful cats, so that’s where the Dulce came. And Tricolor is our flag, it’s yellow, blue and red, so it’s the tricolor of the flag. So Dulce, Tricolor, Venezuelano came from that. It’s an organization that is showing the cuteness within the country, the beautiful, the sweet of the country. And we have this flag that we feel proud of. We’re teaching traditional Venezuelan music. So in Venezuela, there are all sort of rhythms, like if you talk to the new generation, that will be merengue and salsa and reggaeton. But we also within Venezuela grow all the time listening to Joropo. That’s a traditional Venezuan dance. Listening to tambores, there is no party without tambores. And when you are a kid at school, there are always these end of the year performances. And the different grades are assigned different music that they learn. So what we are teaching us is reminding me and my older friends of when we were kids and we were at school and we had to perform the joropo or the tambores. And then that’s what we decided to do. Let’s rescue that traditional music that is still as part of parties, et cetera, but teach them the traditional steps. Well, for me, the first time I found my community, I was walking at the supermarket, and somebody hear me talking, and she approached me and she said, you are Venezuelan? Yeah, I’m Venezuelana. And she’s like, oh, come and join this WhatsApp group. And I feel the place you grew up actually define a lot of who you are. And despite, as I said, I have friends from everywhere, but being close to Venezuelans gives me a special fulfillment. I get out of being with people that speak the same language and the same culture, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:39] \u003c/em> We decided that we wanted to make sure that our kids, some of them born in the U.S., some of the born in Venezuela, were able to carry on with the traditions that we have in Venezuela. We wanted to teach them about what Venezuela meant, how Venezuelans felt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sounds from the dance class: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:58] \u003c/em>Y diciendo viva dulce tricolor venezolano!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:08] \u003c/em>Although we speak Spanish at home and we eat arepas and all the stuff, having something more structured was better. We started back in 2019 just as, okay, friends, let’s go and practice. Let’s go dance. And we started instructing them. And then, unfortunately, six months later, COVID happened. And I was like, oh my God, what do we do now? We said we didn’t want to stop it. So we actually set classes on Zoom. And then we pivot a little bit. We were doing dance, but also Venezuelan traditional games, talking about traditions. And then when we were able to come back in person, we actually did, we started doing it in the park. We didn’t want to lose what we started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:48] \u003c/em>My name is Lara Miras and I’m 10 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:51] \u003c/em>My name Katarina Boscon and I am 11 years old and I think I’ve been since the dance company actually started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:01] \u003c/em>I think it is such a wonderful thing to be able to share your culture through dance. I really like dancing and being with my friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:12] \u003c/em>When you’re in the older levels, you get to create your own dance, and it’s really fun, especially through the community and all the friends. I really like those that take a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:22] \u003c/em>Well it’s definitely a life changing experience because not only do you get to represent your country and the people you love and dance for, but you also get to share a community and it’s very loving and inspiring. It will definitely change your life because when I came here I didn’t, we had like not many friends, but like once you enter it’s really good because of that community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:50] \u003c/em>I feel proud of being Venezuelan because I love eating arepas. The things that I do not like is that I don’t like how social they are. It’s too overly social, but I like arepas and panadas going to the beach and I like the parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sounds from the dance class: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:07] \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:11] \u003c/em>It’s uncommon and I’m proud to be uncommon because I get people when I was asking at my school like, oh your friend is good, what is his like, do you like the food, everything. Well I was born there but I don’t remember much. It feels like it’s such a big country but it feels like everyone knows each other there because they’re so kind. I would really recommend you to go to at least one or two shows and at least see, especially our new exclusive dances that we’re practicing. It’s going to blow your mind, and also the costumes and the community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:48] \u003c/em>We bring songs to our shows that express what Venezuela is and what we hope for Venezuela. So in this event, we have plans to sing two of those songs. So one is called ‘My Illusions,’ and it refers to having all your hope and illusions in a country that hasn’t been in the best positions of all right now, but is moving towards a positive future. And the other one is call Venezuela. And it’s not the national song, but it’s kind of the national sound. Wherever you go, somebody lives in Venezuela and you cannot stop just crying. Because it just spreads the feelings of people that were born there and how you experience your country and how, no matter what, at the end of life, you want to be one way or another one back to Venezuela. I have family still in Venezuela, so I keep connected. There is still a lot of repression internally. They cannot really openly talk about what’s happening and interchange WhatsApp messages. Like my WhatsApp messages with my family in Venezuela are filled of prayers and good news because they cannot talk about was happening. While my conversation with my friends here is different. It’s like, okay, well, what’s happenin’? I saw this on the news. This is happenin’. Look at what this person say. So we have freedom of speech, which they don’t have there. So the way we feel that we support them… Being here in the U.S. Is by, again, like keeping Venezuela alive and making sure that people don’t only listen to the bad side of the news, but also to what Venezuela was and hopefully will be soon enough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:29] \u003c/em>What do you think is important for people who aren’t from Venezuela to know about Venezuela?\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lara Miras: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:35] \u003c/em>Just know that even apart from like all the news breaking, Venezuela is still a wonderful and beautiful place where you can go and enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katarina Boscon: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:43] \u003c/em>It’s important for me to be exposed from Venezuela because I do not want to forget to learn the language and I do not want forget the culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michelle Paulin: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:52] \u003c/em>I’d like to see the community growing, while at the same time I also feel a little nervous about some part of that community came with the TPS and those figures that were created to protect Venezuelans. And now they’re struggling a little bit because they’re in a situation where it’s not well defined. Where are they? Are they standing in safe ground or not? So that’s also a little worrisome and give us the need to also help where we can. We don’t know what the future will bring. We don’t really know if the future will be better or not, based on what happened recently. But give people, again, that hope, that feeling that hopefully we’re gonna be dancing this Oroppo in Venezuela sometime soon. But giving that space for people to express, again, let the feelings flow because it’s conflicting right now. We bring songs to our shows. That express what Venezuela is and what we hope for Venezuela. But the main objective is to get a space to express our feelings about what’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "floatright"
},
"numeric": [
"floatright"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/news/12073361/keeping-venezuelan-culture-alive-through-dance",
"authors": [
"8654",
"11666",
"11946",
"11649"
],
"categories": [
"news_8"
],
"tags": [
"news_32662",
"news_18192",
"news_33812",
"news_22598",
"news_36321"
],
"featImg": "news_12073369",
"label": "source_news_12073361"
},
"news_12073100": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12073100",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12073100",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1770832830000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "love-in-the-time-of-doom-scrolling",
"title": "Love In The Time Of Doom Scrolling",
"publishDate": 1770832830,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Love In The Time Of Doom Scrolling | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8381904068\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Avgitidis Pyrgiotakis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Matchmaker and CEO of Agapematch\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@thisshouldbeatrend\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Musician and content creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friends of Close All Tabs: Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Anna Iovine, Tanya Chen, Amanda Silberling, Harriet Weber, and Taj Weaver\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/technology/ai-dating-apps.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Don’t Need to Swipe Right. A.I. Is Transforming Dating Apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eli Tan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/podcasts/location-sharing-relationships.html\">To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Modern Love Podcast\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/perfection-without-connection-how-ai-is-becoming-digital-wingman-2025-10-04/\">‘Perfection without the connection’: How AI is becoming a digital wingman\u003c/a> — Hani Richter, \u003ci>Reuters\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/09/ai-matchmaking-online-dating/684386/\">The Doomed Dream of an AI Matchmaker\u003c/a> — Faith Hill, \u003ci>The Atlantic\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/book\">Ask A Matchmaker: Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love\u003c/a> — Maria Avgitidis, \u003ci>Matchmaker Maria\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bustle.com/articles/157064-is-u-hauling-real-heres-whats-behind-the-lesbian-stereotype\">Is U-Hauling Real? Here’s What’s Behind The Lesbian Stereotype \u003c/a>— Lea Rose Emery, \u003ci>Bustle\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pagingdrlesbian.com/p/whats-the-deal-with-u-haul-lesbians\">What’s The Deal With U-Haul Lesbians?\u003c/a> — Kira Deshler,\u003ci> Paging Dr. Lesbian\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, covering what we cover on this show, things right now can feel pretty bleak — surveillance culture, environmental injustice, the erosion of constitutional rights, the way algorithms silo and divide us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At a time when it feels like the machines are taking over, we thought we could spend an episode reminding all of you of what makes us most human: Love. And what better time to do that than a commercialized holiday designed to sell mass-produced chocolate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to our Valentine’s Day episode! Today, we have a little heart shaped box of chocolates for you: three stories about how we connect as humans … even in this modern digital hellscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether it’s through a human matchmaker, in a sea of AI-powered dating apps, or stumbling across a comment thread of hot singles in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or, literally finding the one and that involves unpacking a very thorny relationship debate: Do you share your location with your partner? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into our first story today. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, dating apps have been part of the romance ecosystem for over a decade. And they can be exhausting. But, we live so much of our lives online these days, and it’s not easy to meet someone in real life either. So some people have taken it upon themselves to play digital matchmaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open up a new tab: Doom scroll speed date. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So picture this: It’s late at night, you’re doomscrolling. Just consuming content until your brain shuts down and you can finally fall asleep. And then you come across a guy who also appears to be laying in bed, in the dark, in the same situation as you. And he starts talking directly to you, through the screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, hi. It appears as though we’re both doom scrolling at the same time right now. Uh, how, how’s it going? What the hell’s going on on your feed right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are doomscroll dates. It’s like a meet-cute, in the middle of the night when neither person should be awake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that. Um, it’s getting late. You should probably go to bed and I should probably go to bed, so it was cool bumping into you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joseph Manzo, also known as Jojo Manzo, also known by his TikTok handle, ThisShouldBeATrend, started his TikTok account as marketing research for his job. Then last year, on a whim, Jojo started a series where he pretended to take viewers on dates in the middle of a doom scrolling session.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People started really responding to his series. And Jojo realized that he could use his platform to play matchmaker. So he put together what he calls the doomscroll speed date. I’ll let Jojo tell the story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I noticed how many people in the comment sections of the doom scroll date videos that I was putting out. I, I feel like everyone’s just like craving connection, you know? Speaking for myself, I love being the matchmaker. Like I, I really want to put a bunch of people in a room just to see what happens and hope that some of them fall in love or some of them like connect in some way, shape, or form.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Jojo posted a video asking his audience to respond with comments, and laid out some instructions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, basically the ground rules of this, uh, doom scroll, speed date, is what I called it, is basically post a photo of yourself or a meme that you really like, and then your age and where you’re from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once people did that. Other users were encouraged to leave a reply underneath with a photo of themselves or another meme that might match the energy, and whoever left the original comment, was the only person that is allowed to reach out to someone who replied to them. So that way it kind of respected boundaries on everyone’s parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments poured in, gym selfies, polished headshots, goofy unposed photos that you probably wouldn’t find on a typical dating app profile and lots of memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This user said Dallas, Texas with a meme of a very nefarious cartoon just kind of sticking out their tongue, all like, and then someone said, ain’t too far drive for me with the eye emojis. But as this user, so absolutely put, “I don’t have a meme, but I did see this cool apple in the store the other day. This is flirting, right? Why does this feel like a better dating opportunity than hinge? “\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone decided to post a photo of them on Halloween, dressed as Benjamin Franklin, and yes, this is a woman dressed as Benjamin Franklin, uh, with a 0.5 camera selfie, and also put some of their music taste \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo’s doom scroll speed date video got thousands of comments overnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that post resonated with people so well is because I was almost selling them on a pitch to be like. H Hinge and Bumble aren’t working, but TikTok might work Dating app algorithms are very much like Instagram, like everyone really curates their profiles, whereas I feel like people on TikTok are. A lot more comfortable in being careless. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That kind of just develops this opportunity for people to not feel like there’s so much pressure. like it is a casual interaction. You either connect or you don’t \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: While a lot of people \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> put themselves out there in the comments, they weren’t getting many replies … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the comments that were coming in were largely women:, \u003c/span>\u003cb>“\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments are full of baddies, but I’m not seeing a male in New York City.” The straight men were not making moves. I actually left a reply to somebody who had asked, “Where are all the men at?” And I think one of my comments verbatim was, “Yo! Respectfully, y’all aren’t flirting enough.” And that comment got lit up with likes and then a lot of replies started coming in for the people who already posted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “38-year-old anime nerd in Columbus, Ohio. Forgive the gym photo, don’t have a lot of full body pictures.” And it’s, it’s a dude in the gym, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that this person sent high with five eyes and a classic smiley face really, really cheesing. Aw, she’s so cute. With a little cardigan on and the glasses. Aw, I hope they work out. I hope they get to meet up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did not follow up with anyone. Quite frankly, there are thousands of comments on that post that I would have to, I would have to doom scroll the comment section that that’s how many there are and that’s how much time it would take. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think some of the, these ones, like I just mentioned, might have a little bit of merit and I’ll need to reach out to them on the side. Just be like, so, uh, you guys meet up yet? and then there were a lot of, there was actually a lot of requests for me to do this again, but to do it by city, which I haven’t done yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do think this experiment was a success. I mean, my head canon is that there’s at least one potential couple now, you know, I, I really do feel like. This was a good exercise for people to put themselves out there and, um, for either starting the conversation or to drive the conversation. Um, and man, I really, really hope that I can be invited to somebody’s wedding someday\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo tapped into people’s frustration with dating apps and swipe fatigue and tried to DIY a solution. Like he said, he likes playing matchmaker. Tech companies also say they have a solution, with the hottest feature in dating apps right now: AI matchmakers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But will they actually help? Well, let’s open a new tab. What are AI matchmakers missing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, these aren’t AI companions that would replace human dates. These are AI-powered features to help users connect with dates. Like one called Amata, that talks to users, and then describes them to potential matches. Or Rizz, the digital wingman that analyzes screenshots of messages, and generates a quippy, conversation-sparking response. Sliding into DMs? You can outsource your flirting! There are now dozens of apps that offer AI-powered relationship advice. A dating coach in your pocket, available 24/7. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these features are designed to alleviate swipe fatigue: the mental, emotional, and physical burnout of modern dating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wanted to hear from a human matchmaker about why she’s so suspicious of integrating AI features into dating apps, and what it really takes to find a match. What’s the secret sauce to meeting new people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Matchmaker Maria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am Maria Avgitidis better known as Matchmaker Maria, and I am the founder of Agape Match, which is a matchmaking service based out of New York City. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s also an author, and the host of the podcast Ask A Matchmaker. Maria comes from a long line of matchmakers. Before her, her grandmother, her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother were matchmakers in Greece. These previous generations lived through times of famine and political unrest. So back then, matchmaking was really more about building alliances between families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so when I say alliance, you have to think about bartering and trade. And you know, if my family makes milk and your family makes glass bottles, that’s a pretty good match. So these are the things that they were thinking about.They weren’t thinking about are these two people in love? They were thinking about are these families gonna get on. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when my grandmother was matchmaking, first of all, there’s no computers, let alone the internet, let alone mobile phones where we would swipe on potential soulmates while sitting on the couch. And a lot of my clientele now in 2026 and didn’t just start now, it started, I wanna say 11 years ago. In 2015 we started getting the new audience of people who just felt a lot of dating fatigue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it, they didn’t have problem going on dates, you know, they could open up an app, but if it takes too long to go from online to offline, you can feel a bit of dating fatigue. But in 2026 what I see the biggest difference in singles is how the algorithm and also how an AI can reaffirm things that might not necessarily be the right thing for us. And I think about that a lot because, there is a rise in AI in dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up AI because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. the biggest trend in, in dating app tech right now is so-called AI matchmaking. Everyone’s trying to get their LLMs to be the next cupid. Um, a lot of them use AI chatbots to basically ask users questions and then match them with other users based on their answers so that they don’t have to build a profile, they don’t have to swipe, removing a lot of that friction, you know, what do you make of this trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, first of all, I resent the fact that it’s called matchmaker. just because I’m maybe a generational matchmaker. I know what it takes to be a professional matchmaker. It’s so much about community building. At the end of the day, you know, matchmaking is considered one of the oldest professions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It ranks up there with a midwife and uh, and sex work and, The reason why matchmaking has always existed is because dating is a communal activity. You know, don’t look at yourself right now if you are single, laying on the couch, swiping while an episode of Friends or Big Bang Theory playing in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not what dating, that’s not what courtship is supposed to be like. It’s supposed to be your parents meddling. It’s supposed to be your cousin setting up with their friends. It’s your friends setting you up with their friends and you meeting their coworkers at a barbecue. Like dating is a communal effort, ’cause we were not meant to date alone. Humans have this instinct to connect. So that’s the first part, but now what is it exactly doing? And it goes back to my suspicions of, you know, what algorithms and AI can do. I’m not saying that they’re not helpful in certain elements of our jobs, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I just actually put the privacy policy of a social media site on my ChatGPT to be like, what am I, what’s wrong with it? You know, and like, let me know so I don’t have to read the whole privacy policy. So I’m not saying that there’s not some really great benefits with having ai, um, help us, but I do feel like people have a very poor perception of who they actually are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when you talk to an AI, you wanna say really good things about yourself. You’re not necessarily being tasked to look at yourself critically and. Because the AI is built to reaffirm you, even if you’re making a very bad decision. So now take it to dating, what questions are these apps asking to really get to know you, to really understand what kind of partner you will be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a chat bot can do a really great job at making some assumptions on your horoscope or numerology or your Enneagram because a lot of content in on the internet already exists, where it pulls from. I wonder what kind of content it would pull from to help someone who is experiencing extreme loneliness. And then it goes back to the end of who is this for? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No one’s building an AI matchmaking company from the goodness of their heart. There’s probably gonna be investors, there’s probably gonna be shareholders. There’s probably a company that wants to buy it and someone’s gonna profit. And I’m not saying that a dating company or a dating service provider should not get paid for the work that they do. They should absolutely get paid. I’ll be the first to say it. Hello!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I, as a human matchmaker, have a motivation to get my client into a relationship as quickly as possible, because as a human being, I don’t wanna talk to my clients longer than I have to. Right? Like, I really want them in relationships because I want them to leave me alone. That’s not, that’s an optimistic way of looking at it. Right? I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be a good matchmaker. Right? But dating companies, they don’t have that, they can tell us, oh, you know, it’s not just about shareholders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, we wanna help people fall in love. Okay. But you, you, you’re not creating apps that are providing that safe environment. Women are looking for. And you are showing men, women that don’t wanna date them, so they’re having a terrible dating experience and all this because they get to pay every month their subscription to make the shareholders happy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a lot of these dating apps or a lot of these, I, I know you hate the term, but that’s what they’re calling themselves, AI matchmakers, um, report to. Yeah. Just take that kind of friction out of, swiping,out of like having to sift through all these new people and all these new profiles. I mean, Facebook’s dating assistant for example, it works by basically telling the chat bot, uh, a bunch of unique traits that you’re looking for in a partner and they will present you with matches. And the example that meta itself used was find me a Brooklyn girl in tech and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chatbot will present profiles of Brooklyn Girls in Tech. I, it’s not dissimilar to what you do, but also, you know, it’s, it seems to be the final evolution of everything that people have been complaining about when it comes to dating apps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are all living pretty frictionless lives in 2026 in the United States. What I mean by that is you do most things that you need to do on technology on your phone. You can order food through Uber Eats. You can order a car through Lyft you can go to the Starbucks checkout line and actually use the app, not have to interact with a barista at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so when you look at dating, I just said before that, you know, dating was never meant to be done, like solo. It’s supposed to be a communal thing because at the end of the day, should you two work out, the alliance of family is still there. And it, that is important because family is what determines our long-term values, even the ones we don’t agree with. that is where our attachment comes from.That is where our initial beliefs, our initial philosophies in life come from. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like it’s all developed from these families that we are a part of and what we might create, so for dating apps or AI matchmakers, which I hate that I’m even using that word, but whatever, um, what I find really shocking is that it’s because the environment is so frictionless that people are experiencing dating fatigue. Why would you make it even more frictionless? Like, I don’t know how that helps people. and by the way, I’m not anti dating app, but we, we, you don’t have to participate in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a world out there where you could use. An an online tool to get offline. And those tools are called Eventbrite. There’s also social clubs in New York. The fastest growing social club is New York City Backgammon Club. Uh, people, hundreds of people show up to play an ancient game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They put their phones away. And I know that sounds for some people it’s like, ‘oh my God, you want me to go out?’ But you wouldn’t be thinking, this is weird. If it was 2016 or if it was 2006. But now that we have worked from home, now that we have these hybrid work schedules, which again, I’m not against, I think these are fantastic opportunities, but if you’re gonna work from home,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that means you have to put in even more effort to actually be involved in social events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’ve really talked about how friction is necessary for. Community. You need to be a little uncomfortable to meet people, and that community is the secret to relationships. Can you expand on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason why I say that you have to fill up a social calendar is because it’s not just romantic relationships, but friendships. We have this idea that friendship is supposed to be organic, but romantic relationships are supposed to be intentional. And it’s actually the reverse. Your friendships have always been intentional, right? The friendships you made in high school or in elementary school, it wasn’t your intention, but your parents intended to live in that neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You and your group of friends went to the same school and you met, and through proximity, you became friends. You see this with your college friends, you see this with your work friends. You see this with most adult friendships, that these were intentional choices that had you meet this person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to think that friendship is now organic, it really collapses like how we make friends, because you typically don’t make friends just walking in the supermarket. more than half of you’re wearing AirPods when you go in there. So you know, no one’s really talking to you either. So. The way to create any sort of relationship is we have to have the baseline foundation of friendship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, friendship can only happen with two things in this formula, proximity and familiarity. If your algorithm is only showing you one single race, one single body type, one single lifestyle, then that is what you’re familiar with. And I can understand when people say to me, I’m just not attracted to this, or I’m not attracted to that. I, I get it. Your, your own upbringing is going to influence what you are familiar with. Right? But then there’s that proximity and that re, you know, proximity is also about repetition. You have to have that time invested in that person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you were to develop friendships, if you really put that as your goal in 2026, the odds of you getting a relationship through this friendship circle, through this brand new social circle would exponentially grow. Because the people that are going to have the most influence over what your future looks like at this point is whoever is new to that social circle that you’re developing, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember when I met my spouse, my husband, the people that introduced us, who I intentionally met, I actively did things to meet these people. I had only met them three months before and they completely changed my life and I will forever be grateful for them. But that’s it though, is why did that friendship flourish? Familiarity, proximity. I was constantly seeing them, so that way when I met the rest of their friendship circle. I was familiar with the values that both my spouse and our mutual friend shared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What my grandmother, her mother, and her grandmother did really well was build community and they also understood that marriage was a long term commitment, not necessarily by just two people, but by two families because you know, they had a village and that village has to be there for each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Matchmaker Maria, the host of the podcast Ask a Matchmaker and author of the book, Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve been talking about how to find someone online and in real life — and hate to break it to you, but sometimes that does involve going outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But once you’ve found the one do you keep tabs on them? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this episode is all about finding love in this very online landscape. And so far, we’ve heard about how people are finding connection — whether it’s through a matchmaker, an AI-powered dating app, or a doom scroll speed date. Now, for the last chocolate in our Valentine’s Day assortment, it’s time for a story about literally finding your love … Or at least, finding your love’s location. And this one’s personal for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? How about opening one last tab?: Did I digitally u-haul?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Chinese folklore, there is the Red Thread of Fate. It’s a magical red cord that connects lovers who are destined to be together, no matter what happens. The lore says that the old god of matchmaking binds the couple together by tying the cord around their ankles or their pinkies, depending on who you ask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the cord might twist and tangle, it’ll never break. They’ll always find their way back to each other in the end. Today, we just have Find My Friends. With this nifty little app, you can see all your loved ones as little dots on a map, whenever you want! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with over a dozen people — family members, close friends, and my partner. Over the holidays, a relative who isn’t much older than me was shocked that I’m so cavalier about sharing my location with others. Especially because we just put out an episode on digital hygiene and personal security. And their reaction made me reevaluate some of my online habits: Am I a digital u-hauler? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you aren’t familiar with this, u-hauling is a lesbian stereotype. Many queer women are inclined to develop intense emotional bonds and commit to new relationships, very quickly. So quickly, they move in together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from TikTok account @Madeitoutpodcast]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A u-haul! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was comedian Lea DeLaria recently retelling her 30-year old joke. She first told it during her comedy special in the 90s, and the u-haul lesbian has been a community-defining punchline ever since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, the so-called “urge to merge” is influencing digital habits, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have managed to avoid the stereotype of actually u-hauling. It took me well over a year of dating, and before that, eight years of friendship, to move in with my partner. And in previous relationships, I’d always been adamant that we really know each other before sharing a home. In fact, I didn’t even want to share an Instagram grid. Up until my partner and I got together, I had never hard launched a girlfriend. I always had very firm boundaries in relationships. But when it comes to sharing my location? Maybe it’s a different story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m definitely not the first queer person to hop into the proverbial digital u-haul. For this story, our team asked people to send voice notes about their experiences with location sharing and romance. Our producer Maya Cueva got this voice note from her friend, Taj. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I sent this person, who I was dating, my location and I thought that was fine. They shared their location with me uh, really early on, like probably in the first, like month or two. And at the time I shared locations with all my friends, like 15 people at this time, like, I didn’t think anything of it. Did it early on. Had no idea it was called digital U-Hauling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Ok, it’s not really a thing. I made it up, because I’ve done it so often. \u003cb> \u003c/b>I may not be a serial u-hauler, but I am definitely guilty of \u003ci>digital\u003c/i> u-hauling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it may be a surprise that I myself am guilty of this, because, as a tech journalist you’d think that I’d be more guarded about this. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sharing my location like that felt like wearing my heart on my sleeve. Here! I’m giving you access to my whereabouts all the time! I’m trusting you to find me, but only when it’s socially appropriate! And I would never expect the object of my very trackable affections to send me \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">their \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">location — although, whenever they did reciprocate, it was always like, a nice affirmation that we were on the same page. And more importantly, it was convenient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Tanya, though, has a completely different approach to this than I do. Tanya is a tech journalist too, and she takes privacy pretty seriously. She sent me this voice note: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s not that I refuse to share my location, especially with, close, uh, trusted friends and family and I have, it’s just something I really prioritize just to be unsearchable and unknowable, just to kind of like be able to exist freely without people knowing where I am. Or bothering me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not like knowing, you know, where I am. I do like knowing where you are though, but you can’t have a one way situation, uh, relationship as it turns out like that. so if I were to offer my own thoughts on this yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to be really precious about like who you share it with, I mean, for the obvious reason, like precarious stalking stuff. Right? it’s an absolute right. And even, um, now something that’s kind of rare to just like, not have anyone find you. Um, love you. Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> U-hauling may be a lesbian stereotype, but the practice of sharing locations is of course, not exclusive to sapphic relationships. And It’s not always a philosophical debate about privacy and personal freedom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times, it’s just a matter of practicality. Like, I have these friends, Mandy and Jackson. They’re engaged now, been together for six and a half years, and they’ve been sharing their location for most of their relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jackson only shares his location with me, but I actually share my location with 14 people, including my mom. I just, I like to look at my little sims and see where my friends are. When do you check my location? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackson Maxwell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s pretty rare that I do, uh, Mandy recently had a foot surgery a few months ago, and, uh, getting around, uh, with limited mobility on the New York City subway system, really not easy. Uh, getting around on the streets also not easy, so I would just double check \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and similar, I mean, Jackson making sure I’m okay. but Jackson used to have. seizures. and so if he was out like taking a walk or running errands and I hadn’t heard from him for a while, it gave me a lot of peace of mind to be able to see where he was and know that if something happened and he was stuck somewhere, that I would be able to come find him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of our long-term partnership or any long-term partnership as being like the buddy system in school. Like you always have to know, be with your buddy and know where your buddy is. And that’s what, that’s what having a fiance is, is the buddy system. so I just gotta be able to check on my buddy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Location sharing in relationships has been a decade long debate at this point. It’s super polarizing. Some see it as another form of surveillance, while others can’t trust their partners without location sharing. Like, for my friend Amanda, location sharing is a sticking point. Not between Amanda and her boyfriend, but between the couple and everyone else they know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am very online. I am an internet culture reporter. I am professionally, very online. I share my location with a bunch of people, but I don’t have my boyfriend’s location.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is interesting to me how some friends, when I’ve told them I don’t have his location, they’re like, what are you doing? That’s a red flag. Like, is that okay? And I’m like, I don’t think he’s hiding anything. and I don’t think that we should assume that not sharing your location means you’re hiding something. Because like. Like, I think it’s very reasonable to not want someone to know where you are at all times of the day, like as long as he texts me when he gets home, if he’s out late, I don’t really care that I don’t have his location. But then it’s funny because some of our other friends have been like, I would be worried if you did have your, that their location, like that’s a sign of distrust. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost like a micro generational gap where people born in like 1998 think it’s weird that I don’t have my boyfriend’s location and people born in like 1994 are like, it would be really weird if you had it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are legitimate reasons to hide or obscure your location, and it’s not always to hide cheating or anything nefarious. On this show, we’re always talking about the surveillance state, and how our right to privacy is getting chipped away every day. Big tech companies are collecting all of our data and selling it off to the highest bidder, all the time. And at the individual level, people do abuse these apps to stalk and monitor and control others. My friend Anna is a journalist who’s covered sex and relationships for years, so I consider her an expert in the realm of love and the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m pretty ambivalent about location sharing because it’s absolutely a tool to surveil people and I ultimately think that breeds more paranoia and, honestly hiding things that don’t need to be hidden. I generally think that more surveillance doesn’t work and just like encourages people to find loopholes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, Anna and her fiancee, Kat, do share their locations with each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I prefer it that way. I think it’s a great utility. And I ultimately think if someone, if you share your location and someone’s doing something nefarious, they will figure out a way to, um, not be seen. And even in like other ways where you don’t really want someone to know what you’re doing. Like last year when I was. Planning on proposing, um, a week before Kat had plans. So I went to the location and I swapped the location of my device to my iPad. So if Kat did check my location, in that instance I was like, oh, I need her to see that I’m home. So I changed my location. Bu that was like, so galaxy-brained. I was like, what am I doing? But hey, she didn’t find out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a degree of vulnerability involved in sharing locations, especially in a new relationship. In a way, it’s like giving a piece of yourself to another person. Screw the predestined red thread of fate! With a couple of taps, you can give someone\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the other end of a digital tether to yourself. No old god of matchmaking needed! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But not everyone is comfortable with that. My friend Harriet has the complete opposite approach to new relationships than I did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would need to build a lot of trust with someone before wanting to do that. It, it was even a big deal to me to share my location with friends. Um, and I only started doing that because I’ve been going on dates, uh, with total strangers. So if you’re my friend and I’ve shared my location with you, that is a big deal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m honored to be one of the select few that Harriet does share her location with. We swapped locations when she got back on the apps, and wanted to make sure that her friends knew that she got home safe. And since then, it has been really convenient. Like, having each others’ locations came in handy when we were trying to find each other in a crowded park during Pride. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many other people in this story, Harriet is also a tech journalist. Hey, a lot of my friends are, ok? And I, as well as a lot of my friends, are hyperaware of the fact that convenience often comes at the cost of personal privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something I have feelings on myself is, um, the feeling of being surveilled. It’s so abstracted that it’s not really in my face, like a camera would be in my face. For example. If, if a camera’s in your face, you’re gonna act a little different, um, regardless of what you’re doing. There’s just something about it that reminds me a little bit too much of like, spyware.I guess it just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something I had grappled with, amid all of my digital u-hauling antics. You’re giving the other person the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">option\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to surveil you, sure, but you’re also trusting that they won’t. The social contract dictates that location sharing is a sacred bond. When you opt in, you’re agreeing that you’ll only use that connection when it’s appropriate. To me, the inherent vulnerability in location sharing is what makes it feel like such a romantic gesture. I mean, it’s commitment, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t recommend it. Clearly, I think it is a little too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Taj again. They had shared their location after just a month of dating their new girlfriend. Long story short, they aren’t together anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it put a lot of stress in like, I don’t know, a weird surveillance on the relationship and there was a few times where it was like, okay, she could see my location. And she’s like, oh, like, ‘what’s up? You haven’t hit me,’ versus like, oh, maybe you’re just at home focusing on yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It only takes one weird experience to drain the romance out of location sharing. Years ago, amid a breakup, I felt that exact sense of surveillance that Taj was talking about. The whole thing made me a lot more parsimonious about sharing my location especially when there are romantic stakes involved. When it came to finding my dates in crowded places, I had become a big fan of the “share for one hour” option. The other person can see where you are, but that link expires. You get all the convenience, without any of the commitment or vulnerability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then when \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the right time to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">permanently\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> share locations? When do you take that leap of faith? My friend Anna weighed in on this again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t remember having a discussion like, oh, are we gonna share locations now? Or, oh, can I have your location? I’m sure it was an instance where, like, oh, the subway’s down and I’m gonna be late, so why don’t, I’m gonna give you my location so you can see where I am. It definitely felt good. It didn’t feel like as significant as, say, becoming girlfriends or obviously like moving in together or something like that. But it felt nice. It’s like an even deeper level of trust.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My days of digital u-hauling, of sharing and then un-sharing with new people, came to an end three years ago, when my partner and I got together. We were best friends for nearly a decade at that point, and had each others’ locations the entire time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time we finally started dating, we had already established a routine of following the other person’s little blue dot to find each other — at concerts, at the farmer’s market, and yes, even as friends at the giant IKEA in Burbank, California. In fact, I didn’t know her address for a good year, because I would just drive to her location on Find My Friends. Although we didn’t \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">literally\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> u-haul, we were already sharing this hugely vulnerable connection. I don’t remember when we actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">started\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> sharing our locations with each other. But I like to think that the red thread of fate bound us together long before an app ever did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In all of my digital u-hauling, things would end, and I would inevitably cut that tether — digital and emotional. But this time, I know it won’t break. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to our friends for sending us their location sharing stories: Taj Weaver, Tanya Chen, Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Amanda Silberling, Anna lovine, and Harriet Weber. If there’s anything I love more than love stories, it’s a juicy voice note. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, happy Valentine’s day, lovers. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOur team includes editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "A tale of AI matchmaking, digital u-hauling, and doomscroll speed dating ... all in the name of love.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1770842220,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 127,
"wordCount": 7749
},
"headData": {
"title": "Love In The Time Of Doom Scrolling | KQED",
"description": "In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"socialDescription": "In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Love In The Time Of Doom Scrolling",
"datePublished": "2026-02-11T10:00:30-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-02-11T12:37:00-08:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 33520,
"slug": "podcast",
"name": "Podcast"
},
"source": "Close All Tabs",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"audioUrl": "https://traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC8381904068.mp3?updated=1770830460",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12073100",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12073100/love-in-the-time-of-doom-scrolling",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In honor of Valentine’s Day, we’re bringing you an episode about love. We start with TikTok creator Jojo Manzo, who turned his late-night doomscrolling into a matchmaking experiment when he invited thousands of strangers to flirt in his comment section. Then we talk to Maria Avgitidis, a third-generation matchmaker, about why friction, community, and a little discomfort might actually be the point of dating. And finally, we get to the physical … or, at least, geographical. When you find someone you care about, do you share your location with them? Is it intimacy, convenience, surveillance or all three? We explore what it looks like to find human connection in a deeply digital world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8381904068\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guests:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maria Avgitidis Pyrgiotakis\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Matchmaker and CEO of Agapematch\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@thisshouldbeatrend\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Musician and content creator\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Friends of Close All Tabs: Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Anna Iovine, Tanya Chen, Amanda Silberling, Harriet Weber, and Taj Weaver\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading/Listening:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/11/03/technology/ai-dating-apps.html\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You Don’t Need to Swipe Right. A.I. Is Transforming Dating Apps\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> — Eli Tan, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The New York Times\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/25/podcasts/location-sharing-relationships.html\">To Share or Not to Share? How Location Sharing Is Changing Our Relationships\u003c/a> — \u003ci>Modern Love Podcast\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/perfection-without-connection-how-ai-is-becoming-digital-wingman-2025-10-04/\">‘Perfection without the connection’: How AI is becoming a digital wingman\u003c/a> — Hani Richter, \u003ci>Reuters\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.theatlantic.com/family/2025/09/ai-matchmaking-online-dating/684386/\">The Doomed Dream of an AI Matchmaker\u003c/a> — Faith Hill, \u003ci>The Atlantic\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.matchmakermaria.com/book\">Ask A Matchmaker: Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love\u003c/a> — Maria Avgitidis, \u003ci>Matchmaker Maria\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bustle.com/articles/157064-is-u-hauling-real-heres-whats-behind-the-lesbian-stereotype\">Is U-Hauling Real? Here’s What’s Behind The Lesbian Stereotype \u003c/a>— Lea Rose Emery, \u003ci>Bustle\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pagingdrlesbian.com/p/whats-the-deal-with-u-haul-lesbians\">What’s The Deal With U-Haul Lesbians?\u003c/a> — Kira Deshler,\u003ci> Paging Dr. Lesbian\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>Want to give us feedback on the show? Shoot us an email at \u003ca href=\"mailto:CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\">CloseAllTabs@KQED.org\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Follow us on\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/closealltabspod/\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Instagram\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and\u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.tiktok.com/@closealltabs\"> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">TikTok\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Look, covering what we cover on this show, things right now can feel pretty bleak — surveillance culture, environmental injustice, the erosion of constitutional rights, the way algorithms silo and divide us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At a time when it feels like the machines are taking over, we thought we could spend an episode reminding all of you of what makes us most human: Love. And what better time to do that than a commercialized holiday designed to sell mass-produced chocolate? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to our Valentine’s Day episode! Today, we have a little heart shaped box of chocolates for you: three stories about how we connect as humans … even in this modern digital hellscape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whether it’s through a human matchmaker, in a sea of AI-powered dating apps, or stumbling across a comment thread of hot singles in your area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or, literally finding the one and that involves unpacking a very thorny relationship debate: Do you share your location with your partner? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s get into our first story today. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, dating apps have been part of the romance ecosystem for over a decade. And they can be exhausting. But, we live so much of our lives online these days, and it’s not easy to meet someone in real life either. So some people have taken it upon themselves to play digital matchmaker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s open up a new tab: Doom scroll speed date. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So picture this: It’s late at night, you’re doomscrolling. Just consuming content until your brain shuts down and you can finally fall asleep. And then you come across a guy who also appears to be laying in bed, in the dark, in the same situation as you. And he starts talking directly to you, through the screen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, hi. It appears as though we’re both doom scrolling at the same time right now. Uh, how, how’s it going? What the hell’s going on on your feed right now?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">These are doomscroll dates. It’s like a meet-cute, in the middle of the night when neither person should be awake. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audio clip from the TikTok account @thisshouldbeatrend\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">]\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Actually, you know what? Don’t answer that. Um, it’s getting late. You should probably go to bed and I should probably go to bed, so it was cool bumping into you. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joseph Manzo, also known as Jojo Manzo, also known by his TikTok handle, ThisShouldBeATrend, started his TikTok account as marketing research for his job. Then last year, on a whim, Jojo started a series where he pretended to take viewers on dates in the middle of a doom scrolling session.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People started really responding to his series. And Jojo realized that he could use his platform to play matchmaker. So he put together what he calls the doomscroll speed date. I’ll let Jojo tell the story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I noticed how many people in the comment sections of the doom scroll date videos that I was putting out. I, I feel like everyone’s just like craving connection, you know? Speaking for myself, I love being the matchmaker. Like I, I really want to put a bunch of people in a room just to see what happens and hope that some of them fall in love or some of them like connect in some way, shape, or form.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So Jojo posted a video asking his audience to respond with comments, and laid out some instructions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, basically the ground rules of this, uh, doom scroll, speed date, is what I called it, is basically post a photo of yourself or a meme that you really like, and then your age and where you’re from. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Once people did that. Other users were encouraged to leave a reply underneath with a photo of themselves or another meme that might match the energy, and whoever left the original comment, was the only person that is allowed to reach out to someone who replied to them. So that way it kind of respected boundaries on everyone’s parts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments poured in, gym selfies, polished headshots, goofy unposed photos that you probably wouldn’t find on a typical dating app profile and lots of memes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This user said Dallas, Texas with a meme of a very nefarious cartoon just kind of sticking out their tongue, all like, and then someone said, ain’t too far drive for me with the eye emojis. But as this user, so absolutely put, “I don’t have a meme, but I did see this cool apple in the store the other day. This is flirting, right? Why does this feel like a better dating opportunity than hinge? “\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Someone decided to post a photo of them on Halloween, dressed as Benjamin Franklin, and yes, this is a woman dressed as Benjamin Franklin, uh, with a 0.5 camera selfie, and also put some of their music taste \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo’s doom scroll speed date video got thousands of comments overnight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think that post resonated with people so well is because I was almost selling them on a pitch to be like. H Hinge and Bumble aren’t working, but TikTok might work Dating app algorithms are very much like Instagram, like everyone really curates their profiles, whereas I feel like people on TikTok are. A lot more comfortable in being careless. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That kind of just develops this opportunity for people to not feel like there’s so much pressure. like it is a casual interaction. You either connect or you don’t \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: While a lot of people \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">did\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> put themselves out there in the comments, they weren’t getting many replies … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the comments that were coming in were largely women:, \u003c/span>\u003cb>“\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The comments are full of baddies, but I’m not seeing a male in New York City.” The straight men were not making moves. I actually left a reply to somebody who had asked, “Where are all the men at?” And I think one of my comments verbatim was, “Yo! Respectfully, y’all aren’t flirting enough.” And that comment got lit up with likes and then a lot of replies started coming in for the people who already posted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jojo Manzo:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “38-year-old anime nerd in Columbus, Ohio. Forgive the gym photo, don’t have a lot of full body pictures.” And it’s, it’s a dude in the gym, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Uh, that this person sent high with five eyes and a classic smiley face really, really cheesing. Aw, she’s so cute. With a little cardigan on and the glasses. Aw, I hope they work out. I hope they get to meet up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I did not follow up with anyone. Quite frankly, there are thousands of comments on that post that I would have to, I would have to doom scroll the comment section that that’s how many there are and that’s how much time it would take. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I think some of the, these ones, like I just mentioned, might have a little bit of merit and I’ll need to reach out to them on the side. Just be like, so, uh, you guys meet up yet? and then there were a lot of, there was actually a lot of requests for me to do this again, but to do it by city, which I haven’t done yet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I really do think this experiment was a success. I mean, my head canon is that there’s at least one potential couple now, you know, I, I really do feel like. This was a good exercise for people to put themselves out there and, um, for either starting the conversation or to drive the conversation. Um, and man, I really, really hope that I can be invited to somebody’s wedding someday\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jojo Manzo tapped into people’s frustration with dating apps and swipe fatigue and tried to DIY a solution. Like he said, he likes playing matchmaker. Tech companies also say they have a solution, with the hottest feature in dating apps right now: AI matchmakers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But will they actually help? Well, let’s open a new tab. What are AI matchmakers missing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To be clear, these aren’t AI companions that would replace human dates. These are AI-powered features to help users connect with dates. Like one called Amata, that talks to users, and then describes them to potential matches. Or Rizz, the digital wingman that analyzes screenshots of messages, and generates a quippy, conversation-sparking response. Sliding into DMs? You can outsource your flirting! There are now dozens of apps that offer AI-powered relationship advice. A dating coach in your pocket, available 24/7. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of these features are designed to alleviate swipe fatigue: the mental, emotional, and physical burnout of modern dating. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I wanted to hear from a human matchmaker about why she’s so suspicious of integrating AI features into dating apps, and what it really takes to find a match. What’s the secret sauce to meeting new people?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Matchmaker Maria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis, Guest:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am Maria Avgitidis better known as Matchmaker Maria, and I am the founder of Agape Match, which is a matchmaking service based out of New York City. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s also an author, and the host of the podcast Ask A Matchmaker. Maria comes from a long line of matchmakers. Before her, her grandmother, her great grandmother, and her great great grandmother were matchmakers in Greece. These previous generations lived through times of famine and political unrest. So back then, matchmaking was really more about building alliances between families. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And so when I say alliance, you have to think about bartering and trade. And you know, if my family makes milk and your family makes glass bottles, that’s a pretty good match. So these are the things that they were thinking about.They weren’t thinking about are these two people in love? They were thinking about are these families gonna get on. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, when my grandmother was matchmaking, first of all, there’s no computers, let alone the internet, let alone mobile phones where we would swipe on potential soulmates while sitting on the couch. And a lot of my clientele now in 2026 and didn’t just start now, it started, I wanna say 11 years ago. In 2015 we started getting the new audience of people who just felt a lot of dating fatigue.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So it, they didn’t have problem going on dates, you know, they could open up an app, but if it takes too long to go from online to offline, you can feel a bit of dating fatigue. But in 2026 what I see the biggest difference in singles is how the algorithm and also how an AI can reaffirm things that might not necessarily be the right thing for us. And I think about that a lot because, there is a rise in AI in dating.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up AI because that’s what we’re here to talk about today. the biggest trend in, in dating app tech right now is so-called AI matchmaking. Everyone’s trying to get their LLMs to be the next cupid. Um, a lot of them use AI chatbots to basically ask users questions and then match them with other users based on their answers so that they don’t have to build a profile, they don’t have to swipe, removing a lot of that friction, you know, what do you make of this trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Um, first of all, I resent the fact that it’s called matchmaker. just because I’m maybe a generational matchmaker. I know what it takes to be a professional matchmaker. It’s so much about community building. At the end of the day, you know, matchmaking is considered one of the oldest professions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It ranks up there with a midwife and uh, and sex work and, The reason why matchmaking has always existed is because dating is a communal activity. You know, don’t look at yourself right now if you are single, laying on the couch, swiping while an episode of Friends or Big Bang Theory playing in the background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s not what dating, that’s not what courtship is supposed to be like. It’s supposed to be your parents meddling. It’s supposed to be your cousin setting up with their friends. It’s your friends setting you up with their friends and you meeting their coworkers at a barbecue. Like dating is a communal effort, ’cause we were not meant to date alone. Humans have this instinct to connect. So that’s the first part, but now what is it exactly doing? And it goes back to my suspicions of, you know, what algorithms and AI can do. I’m not saying that they’re not helpful in certain elements of our jobs, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know, I just actually put the privacy policy of a social media site on my ChatGPT to be like, what am I, what’s wrong with it? You know, and like, let me know so I don’t have to read the whole privacy policy. So I’m not saying that there’s not some really great benefits with having ai, um, help us, but I do feel like people have a very poor perception of who they actually are.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think when you talk to an AI, you wanna say really good things about yourself. You’re not necessarily being tasked to look at yourself critically and. Because the AI is built to reaffirm you, even if you’re making a very bad decision. So now take it to dating, what questions are these apps asking to really get to know you, to really understand what kind of partner you will be? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I think a chat bot can do a really great job at making some assumptions on your horoscope or numerology or your Enneagram because a lot of content in on the internet already exists, where it pulls from. I wonder what kind of content it would pull from to help someone who is experiencing extreme loneliness. And then it goes back to the end of who is this for? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No one’s building an AI matchmaking company from the goodness of their heart. There’s probably gonna be investors, there’s probably gonna be shareholders. There’s probably a company that wants to buy it and someone’s gonna profit. And I’m not saying that a dating company or a dating service provider should not get paid for the work that they do. They should absolutely get paid. I’ll be the first to say it. Hello!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But I, as a human matchmaker, have a motivation to get my client into a relationship as quickly as possible, because as a human being, I don’t wanna talk to my clients longer than I have to. Right? Like, I really want them in relationships because I want them to leave me alone. That’s not, that’s an optimistic way of looking at it. Right? I wanna be good at my job. I wanna be a good matchmaker. Right? But dating companies, they don’t have that, they can tell us, oh, you know, it’s not just about shareholders.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like, we wanna help people fall in love. Okay. But you, you, you’re not creating apps that are providing that safe environment. Women are looking for. And you are showing men, women that don’t wanna date them, so they’re having a terrible dating experience and all this because they get to pay every month their subscription to make the shareholders happy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a lot of these dating apps or a lot of these, I, I know you hate the term, but that’s what they’re calling themselves, AI matchmakers, um, report to. Yeah. Just take that kind of friction out of, swiping,out of like having to sift through all these new people and all these new profiles. I mean, Facebook’s dating assistant for example, it works by basically telling the chat bot, uh, a bunch of unique traits that you’re looking for in a partner and they will present you with matches. And the example that meta itself used was find me a Brooklyn girl in tech and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The chatbot will present profiles of Brooklyn Girls in Tech. I, it’s not dissimilar to what you do, but also, you know, it’s, it seems to be the final evolution of everything that people have been complaining about when it comes to dating apps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are all living pretty frictionless lives in 2026 in the United States. What I mean by that is you do most things that you need to do on technology on your phone. You can order food through Uber Eats. You can order a car through Lyft you can go to the Starbucks checkout line and actually use the app, not have to interact with a barista at all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so when you look at dating, I just said before that, you know, dating was never meant to be done, like solo. It’s supposed to be a communal thing because at the end of the day, should you two work out, the alliance of family is still there. And it, that is important because family is what determines our long-term values, even the ones we don’t agree with. that is where our attachment comes from.That is where our initial beliefs, our initial philosophies in life come from. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like it’s all developed from these families that we are a part of and what we might create, so for dating apps or AI matchmakers, which I hate that I’m even using that word, but whatever, um, what I find really shocking is that it’s because the environment is so frictionless that people are experiencing dating fatigue. Why would you make it even more frictionless? Like, I don’t know how that helps people. and by the way, I’m not anti dating app, but we, we, you don’t have to participate in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a world out there where you could use. An an online tool to get offline. And those tools are called Eventbrite. There’s also social clubs in New York. The fastest growing social club is New York City Backgammon Club. Uh, people, hundreds of people show up to play an ancient game.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They put their phones away. And I know that sounds for some people it’s like, ‘oh my God, you want me to go out?’ But you wouldn’t be thinking, this is weird. If it was 2016 or if it was 2006. But now that we have worked from home, now that we have these hybrid work schedules, which again, I’m not against, I think these are fantastic opportunities, but if you’re gonna work from home,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that means you have to put in even more effort to actually be involved in social events.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. You’ve really talked about how friction is necessary for. Community. You need to be a little uncomfortable to meet people, and that community is the secret to relationships. Can you expand on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The reason why I say that you have to fill up a social calendar is because it’s not just romantic relationships, but friendships. We have this idea that friendship is supposed to be organic, but romantic relationships are supposed to be intentional. And it’s actually the reverse. Your friendships have always been intentional, right? The friendships you made in high school or in elementary school, it wasn’t your intention, but your parents intended to live in that neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You and your group of friends went to the same school and you met, and through proximity, you became friends. You see this with your college friends, you see this with your work friends. You see this with most adult friendships, that these were intentional choices that had you meet this person.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to think that friendship is now organic, it really collapses like how we make friends, because you typically don’t make friends just walking in the supermarket. more than half of you’re wearing AirPods when you go in there. So you know, no one’s really talking to you either. So. The way to create any sort of relationship is we have to have the baseline foundation of friendship.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, friendship can only happen with two things in this formula, proximity and familiarity. If your algorithm is only showing you one single race, one single body type, one single lifestyle, then that is what you’re familiar with. And I can understand when people say to me, I’m just not attracted to this, or I’m not attracted to that. I, I get it. Your, your own upbringing is going to influence what you are familiar with. Right? But then there’s that proximity and that re, you know, proximity is also about repetition. You have to have that time invested in that person. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So if you were to develop friendships, if you really put that as your goal in 2026, the odds of you getting a relationship through this friendship circle, through this brand new social circle would exponentially grow. Because the people that are going to have the most influence over what your future looks like at this point is whoever is new to that social circle that you’re developing, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I remember when I met my spouse, my husband, the people that introduced us, who I intentionally met, I actively did things to meet these people. I had only met them three months before and they completely changed my life and I will forever be grateful for them. But that’s it though, is why did that friendship flourish? Familiarity, proximity. I was constantly seeing them, so that way when I met the rest of their friendship circle. I was familiar with the values that both my spouse and our mutual friend shared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What my grandmother, her mother, and her grandmother did really well was build community and they also understood that marriage was a long term commitment, not necessarily by just two people, but by two families because you know, they had a village and that village has to be there for each other.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much for joining us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maria Avgitidis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was Matchmaker Maria, the host of the podcast Ask a Matchmaker and author of the book, Matchmaker Maria’s No Nonsense Guide to Finding Love.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we’ve been talking about how to find someone online and in real life — and hate to break it to you, but sometimes that does involve going outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But once you’ve found the one do you keep tabs on them? That’s after this break.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So this episode is all about finding love in this very online landscape. And so far, we’ve heard about how people are finding connection — whether it’s through a matchmaker, an AI-powered dating app, or a doom scroll speed date. Now, for the last chocolate in our Valentine’s Day assortment, it’s time for a story about literally finding your love … Or at least, finding your love’s location. And this one’s personal for me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ready? How about opening one last tab?: Did I digitally u-haul?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Chinese folklore, there is the Red Thread of Fate. It’s a magical red cord that connects lovers who are destined to be together, no matter what happens. The lore says that the old god of matchmaking binds the couple together by tying the cord around their ankles or their pinkies, depending on who you ask. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Although the cord might twist and tangle, it’ll never break. They’ll always find their way back to each other in the end. Today, we just have Find My Friends. With this nifty little app, you can see all your loved ones as little dots on a map, whenever you want! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I share my location with over a dozen people — family members, close friends, and my partner. Over the holidays, a relative who isn’t much older than me was shocked that I’m so cavalier about sharing my location with others. Especially because we just put out an episode on digital hygiene and personal security. And their reaction made me reevaluate some of my online habits: Am I a digital u-hauler? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you aren’t familiar with this, u-hauling is a lesbian stereotype. Many queer women are inclined to develop intense emotional bonds and commit to new relationships, very quickly. So quickly, they move in together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Audio clip from TikTok account @Madeitoutpodcast]\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A u-haul! \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was comedian Lea DeLaria recently retelling her 30-year old joke. She first told it during her comedy special in the 90s, and the u-haul lesbian has been a community-defining punchline ever since. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And now, the so-called “urge to merge” is influencing digital habits, too. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have managed to avoid the stereotype of actually u-hauling. It took me well over a year of dating, and before that, eight years of friendship, to move in with my partner. And in previous relationships, I’d always been adamant that we really know each other before sharing a home. In fact, I didn’t even want to share an Instagram grid. Up until my partner and I got together, I had never hard launched a girlfriend. I always had very firm boundaries in relationships. But when it comes to sharing my location? Maybe it’s a different story. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I’m definitely not the first queer person to hop into the proverbial digital u-haul. For this story, our team asked people to send voice notes about their experiences with location sharing and romance. Our producer Maya Cueva got this voice note from her friend, Taj. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I sent this person, who I was dating, my location and I thought that was fine. They shared their location with me uh, really early on, like probably in the first, like month or two. And at the time I shared locations with all my friends, like 15 people at this time, like, I didn’t think anything of it. Did it early on. Had no idea it was called digital U-Hauling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: Ok, it’s not really a thing. I made it up, because I’ve done it so often. \u003cb> \u003c/b>I may not be a serial u-hauler, but I am definitely guilty of \u003ci>digital\u003c/i> u-hauling. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it may be a surprise that I myself am guilty of this, because, as a tech journalist you’d think that I’d be more guarded about this. Right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But sharing my location like that felt like wearing my heart on my sleeve. Here! I’m giving you access to my whereabouts all the time! I’m trusting you to find me, but only when it’s socially appropriate! And I would never expect the object of my very trackable affections to send me \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">their \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">location — although, whenever they did reciprocate, it was always like, a nice affirmation that we were on the same page. And more importantly, it was convenient. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My friend Tanya, though, has a completely different approach to this than I do. Tanya is a tech journalist too, and she takes privacy pretty seriously. She sent me this voice note: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tanya Chen:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s not that I refuse to share my location, especially with, close, uh, trusted friends and family and I have, it’s just something I really prioritize just to be unsearchable and unknowable, just to kind of like be able to exist freely without people knowing where I am. Or bothering me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I do not like knowing, you know, where I am. I do like knowing where you are though, but you can’t have a one way situation, uh, relationship as it turns out like that. so if I were to offer my own thoughts on this yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just to be really precious about like who you share it with, I mean, for the obvious reason, like precarious stalking stuff. Right? it’s an absolute right. And even, um, now something that’s kind of rare to just like, not have anyone find you. Um, love you. Bye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> U-hauling may be a lesbian stereotype, but the practice of sharing locations is of course, not exclusive to sapphic relationships. And It’s not always a philosophical debate about privacy and personal freedom. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times, it’s just a matter of practicality. Like, I have these friends, Mandy and Jackson. They’re engaged now, been together for six and a half years, and they’ve been sharing their location for most of their relationship. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Jackson only shares his location with me, but I actually share my location with 14 people, including my mom. I just, I like to look at my little sims and see where my friends are. When do you check my location? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackson Maxwell:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it’s pretty rare that I do, uh, Mandy recently had a foot surgery a few months ago, and, uh, getting around, uh, with limited mobility on the New York City subway system, really not easy. Uh, getting around on the streets also not easy, so I would just double check \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mandy Seiner:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and similar, I mean, Jackson making sure I’m okay. but Jackson used to have. seizures. and so if he was out like taking a walk or running errands and I hadn’t heard from him for a while, it gave me a lot of peace of mind to be able to see where he was and know that if something happened and he was stuck somewhere, that I would be able to come find him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think of our long-term partnership or any long-term partnership as being like the buddy system in school. Like you always have to know, be with your buddy and know where your buddy is. And that’s what, that’s what having a fiance is, is the buddy system. so I just gotta be able to check on my buddy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Location sharing in relationships has been a decade long debate at this point. It’s super polarizing. Some see it as another form of surveillance, while others can’t trust their partners without location sharing. Like, for my friend Amanda, location sharing is a sticking point. Not between Amanda and her boyfriend, but between the couple and everyone else they know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Silberling:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I am very online. I am an internet culture reporter. I am professionally, very online. I share my location with a bunch of people, but I don’t have my boyfriend’s location.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It is interesting to me how some friends, when I’ve told them I don’t have his location, they’re like, what are you doing? That’s a red flag. Like, is that okay? And I’m like, I don’t think he’s hiding anything. and I don’t think that we should assume that not sharing your location means you’re hiding something. Because like. Like, I think it’s very reasonable to not want someone to know where you are at all times of the day, like as long as he texts me when he gets home, if he’s out late, I don’t really care that I don’t have his location. But then it’s funny because some of our other friends have been like, I would be worried if you did have your, that their location, like that’s a sign of distrust. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s almost like a micro generational gap where people born in like 1998 think it’s weird that I don’t have my boyfriend’s location and people born in like 1994 are like, it would be really weird if you had it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are legitimate reasons to hide or obscure your location, and it’s not always to hide cheating or anything nefarious. On this show, we’re always talking about the surveillance state, and how our right to privacy is getting chipped away every day. Big tech companies are collecting all of our data and selling it off to the highest bidder, all the time. And at the individual level, people do abuse these apps to stalk and monitor and control others. My friend Anna is a journalist who’s covered sex and relationships for years, so I consider her an expert in the realm of love and the internet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I’m pretty ambivalent about location sharing because it’s absolutely a tool to surveil people and I ultimately think that breeds more paranoia and, honestly hiding things that don’t need to be hidden. I generally think that more surveillance doesn’t work and just like encourages people to find loopholes.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That being said, Anna and her fiancee, Kat, do share their locations with each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and I prefer it that way. I think it’s a great utility. And I ultimately think if someone, if you share your location and someone’s doing something nefarious, they will figure out a way to, um, not be seen. And even in like other ways where you don’t really want someone to know what you’re doing. Like last year when I was. Planning on proposing, um, a week before Kat had plans. So I went to the location and I swapped the location of my device to my iPad. So if Kat did check my location, in that instance I was like, oh, I need her to see that I’m home. So I changed my location. Bu that was like, so galaxy-brained. I was like, what am I doing? But hey, she didn’t find out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> a degree of vulnerability involved in sharing locations, especially in a new relationship. In a way, it’s like giving a piece of yourself to another person. Screw the predestined red thread of fate! With a couple of taps, you can give someone\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the other end of a digital tether to yourself. No old god of matchmaking needed! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But not everyone is comfortable with that. My friend Harriet has the complete opposite approach to new relationships than I did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would need to build a lot of trust with someone before wanting to do that. It, it was even a big deal to me to share my location with friends. Um, and I only started doing that because I’ve been going on dates, uh, with total strangers. So if you’re my friend and I’ve shared my location with you, that is a big deal. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m honored to be one of the select few that Harriet does share her location with. We swapped locations when she got back on the apps, and wanted to make sure that her friends knew that she got home safe. And since then, it has been really convenient. Like, having each others’ locations came in handy when we were trying to find each other in a crowded park during Pride. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Like many other people in this story, Harriet is also a tech journalist. Hey, a lot of my friends are, ok? And I, as well as a lot of my friends, are hyperaware of the fact that convenience often comes at the cost of personal privacy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harriet Weber:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something I have feelings on myself is, um, the feeling of being surveilled. It’s so abstracted that it’s not really in my face, like a camera would be in my face. For example. If, if a camera’s in your face, you’re gonna act a little different, um, regardless of what you’re doing. There’s just something about it that reminds me a little bit too much of like, spyware.I guess it just makes me a little bit uncomfortable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is something I had grappled with, amid all of my digital u-hauling antics. You’re giving the other person the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">option\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to surveil you, sure, but you’re also trusting that they won’t. The social contract dictates that location sharing is a sacred bond. When you opt in, you’re agreeing that you’ll only use that connection when it’s appropriate. To me, the inherent vulnerability in location sharing is what makes it feel like such a romantic gesture. I mean, it’s commitment, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t recommend it. Clearly, I think it is a little too much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Taj again. They had shared their location after just a month of dating their new girlfriend. Long story short, they aren’t together anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Taj:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it put a lot of stress in like, I don’t know, a weird surveillance on the relationship and there was a few times where it was like, okay, she could see my location. And she’s like, oh, like, ‘what’s up? You haven’t hit me,’ versus like, oh, maybe you’re just at home focusing on yourself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It only takes one weird experience to drain the romance out of location sharing. Years ago, amid a breakup, I felt that exact sense of surveillance that Taj was talking about. The whole thing made me a lot more parsimonious about sharing my location especially when there are romantic stakes involved. When it came to finding my dates in crowded places, I had become a big fan of the “share for one hour” option. The other person can see where you are, but that link expires. You get all the convenience, without any of the commitment or vulnerability. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then when \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> the right time to \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">permanently\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> share locations? When do you take that leap of faith? My friend Anna weighed in on this again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Anna lovine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t remember having a discussion like, oh, are we gonna share locations now? Or, oh, can I have your location? I’m sure it was an instance where, like, oh, the subway’s down and I’m gonna be late, so why don’t, I’m gonna give you my location so you can see where I am. It definitely felt good. It didn’t feel like as significant as, say, becoming girlfriends or obviously like moving in together or something like that. But it felt nice. It’s like an even deeper level of trust.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My days of digital u-hauling, of sharing and then un-sharing with new people, came to an end three years ago, when my partner and I got together. We were best friends for nearly a decade at that point, and had each others’ locations the entire time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By the time we finally started dating, we had already established a routine of following the other person’s little blue dot to find each other — at concerts, at the farmer’s market, and yes, even as friends at the giant IKEA in Burbank, California. In fact, I didn’t know her address for a good year, because I would just drive to her location on Find My Friends. Although we didn’t \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">literally\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> u-haul, we were already sharing this hugely vulnerable connection. I don’t remember when we actually \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">started\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> sharing our locations with each other. But I like to think that the red thread of fate bound us together long before an app ever did. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In all of my digital u-hauling, things would end, and I would inevitably cut that tether — digital and emotional. But this time, I know it won’t break. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Special thanks to our friends for sending us their location sharing stories: Taj Weaver, Tanya Chen, Mandy Seiner and Jackson Maxwell, Amanda Silberling, Anna lovine, and Harriet Weber. If there’s anything I love more than love stories, it’s a juicy voice note. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, happy Valentine’s day, lovers. Let’s close all these tabs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs is a production of KQED Studios, and is reported and hosted by me, Morgan Sung.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was produced by Maya Cueva, with support from Gabriela Glueck. It was edited by Jen Chien, who is KQED’s Director of Podcasts.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\nOur team includes editor Chris Hambrick and senior editor Chris Egusa, who also composed our theme song and credits music. Additional music by APM. Brendan Willard is our audio engineer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Audience engagement support from Maha Sanad. Katie Sprenger is our Podcast Operations Manager, and Ethan Toven-Lindsey is our Editor in Chief.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode’s keyboard sounds were submitted by my dad, Casey Sung, and recorded on his white and blue Epomaker Aula F99 keyboard with Graywood v3 switches, and Cherry profile PBT keycaps. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ok, and I know it’s podcast cliche, but if you like these deep dives, and want us to keep making more, it would \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">help us out if you could rate and review us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. Don’t forget to drop a comment and tell your friends, too. Or even your enemies! Or… frenemies? And if you \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">really\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> like Close All Tabs and want to support public media, go to donate.KQED.org/podcasts.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks for listening! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
}
],
"link": "/news/12073100/love-in-the-time-of-doom-scrolling",
"authors": [
"11944",
"11943",
"11869",
"11832",
"11946"
],
"programs": [
"news_35082"
],
"categories": [
"news_33520"
],
"tags": [
"news_25184",
"news_34755",
"news_35092",
"news_22973",
"news_21593",
"news_28161",
"news_3137",
"news_34646",
"news_20856",
"news_25020",
"news_1631",
"news_5750",
"news_2301"
],
"featImg": "news_12073113",
"label": "source_news_12073100"
},
"news_12069285": {
"type": "posts",
"id": "news_12069285",
"meta": {
"index": "posts_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "12069285",
"score": null,
"sort": [
1768215626000
]
},
"guestAuthors": [],
"slug": "could-san-francisco-really-take-over-pge",
"title": "Could San Francisco Really Take Over PG&E?",
"publishDate": 1768215626,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "Could San Francisco Really Take Over PG&E? | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Francisco residents are furious with Pacific Gas & Electric after nearly one third of the city was hit by a series of power outages over the holiday season. This public outrage has also revived calls for the city — or even the state — to take over the investor-owned utility.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9963352964&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. A few weeks ago during the holiday season, San Francisco was hit with a series of power outages. Businesses lost customers during the busiest weekend of the year, restaurants had to throw out food, and some people didn’t get their power back for days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Molthen \u003c/strong>[00:00:27] It’s terrible, I have a restaurant and I had a party of over 15-16 people last night and I had to call them all to cancel. This is my livelihood and I can’t, I can’ open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Desi Valdez \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] Haven’t been able to do anything I needed to do. So I’ve just been sitting around in the dark, trying to find motivation, but it’s hard when there’s nothing to turn on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:51] San Francisco residents, especially on the city’s west side, are furious with PG&E. And all this chaos has some people wondering whether it’s time for the city to go even further and take over the investor-owned utility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Wiener \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] It’s time for us to move forward, for San Francisco to be able to break away from PG&E to form our own public utility. We’ve got to get this done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:17] Today, what it would take for San Francisco to break up with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:01:26] On December 20th, there was a fire at a substation, like a power substation PG&E in Soma, Mission and Eighth Streets, which led to power outages for roughly a third of San Francisco customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:42] Laura Klivans is a climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:01:47] The neighborhoods that were most affected were Richmond, sort of the west side, Presidio, parts of the sunset. We even saw some of the Fillmore, some of Hayes Valley, some parts of downtown. For different people, it lasted for different time periods. So if you talk to somebody in the Richmond, they really got it the worst. They got it for sustained periods of time, some up to two or three days, and then multiple outages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:02:15] I remember that first one that lasted for some residents 48 hours maybe, and there were several more after that, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] Yeah, there were several others after that, not lasting as long. PG&E attempted to fix and restore power. They put in these diesel generators in the Richmond district, which were extremely loud and residents didn’t like those either. And then the impacts on people were significant. A lot of people lost the stuff in their fridge. There was all sorts of regular nuisances. And for businesses too, it was a holiday week, a lot of people were going out to restaurants and stuff and they were losing all their produce or fish or whatever it might be. PG&E has offered to give people money for this stuff, 200 bucks for residents on your credit on your next bill and 2,500 for businesses and you could apply for even more. But for some people, it’s more than just like a nuisance and an inconvenience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Spencer-Martin \u003c/strong>[00:03:15] I’m in a wheelchair. I’m gonna power wheelchair. I wouldn’t be able to charge my chair. I wouldn’t be able get out of my building or into my building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] I talked to San Francisco residents, including Kai Spencer Martin, about this latest power loss.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Spencer-Martin \u003c/strong>[00:03:29] If the power went out, I wouldn’t be able to go out and buy new groceries because my groceries went bad. We’d go hungry. My family. And it’s not just me. It’s me, my husband, my teenage son.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:03:40] Luckily, she said the lights all around her building went out and hers didn’t. And she found out later that they have a backup generator in her building. So she was really lucky. But she’s an example of like how it’s more than just an inconvenience, right? Like it’s just more than eating a weird meal and trying to keep your fridge closed. She also has medications that need to be refrigerated, uses a nebulizer for asthma, and her husband uses a CPAP machine for sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Spencer-Martin \u003c/strong>[00:04:08] I have other friends that have disabilities that live in some of the downtown SROs that were out of power, um, for days, some of them just went hungry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:04:25] How much anger were you seeing, and are still seeing, as a result of this power outage and the ones that came after?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:04:34] Yeah, I mean, I think many people are familiar with how people already feel about PG&E. And if you look at like any Reddit forum about this power outage, it’s just like full of livid people, understandably, and people saying, how is this our one choice? People are upset for how much they’re paying for this power that isn’t very reliable. And all of this anger has led for calls for the city to take over PG&e.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Wiener \u003c/strong>[00:05:07] PG&E is too large. It’s not adequately maintaining its infrastructure as we saw this weekend yet again with the substation that caught on fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:05:17] State Senator Scott Wiener, he has just recently in the last few days introduced legislation that would make it easier for cities to break away from PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Wiener \u003c/strong>[00:05:29] When giant corporations put profits over the public interest, it is time for us to act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:05:36] And then we have other local officials supporting it, like San Francisco Supervisor Matt Dorsey. Why is that the solution that many people are thinking about now? Because PG&E is an investor-owned utility, which means it is motivated by profit in part, because they have investors and they need to offer them a return to make it worth them investing in the company. If PG&e were public, it would not have that motivation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] Is the idea that a takeover would lead to cheaper and better?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:06:11] That’s the idea, yeah. So if you look at some other examples, there are some places that have public power and they are paying way lower rates than people who have PG&E. And also, by having local control, you have more control of the grid that’s in front of you and the priorities in your smaller area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] So how does this happen exactly? Can San Francisco just make PG&E an offer? I mean, is PG&e even for sale in San Francisco or anywhere?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:06:42] PG&E is not for sale, and they are not interested in selling all their infrastructure in San Francisco, but through a process called eminent domain, it could be possible. And what this would mean would be that San Francisco, it’s within their purview to take private property for public use as long as it pays fair compensation. So it would mean buying the part of the grid that PG&E owns and also paying for the cost of separating that out. We would need to have regulators involved. The California Public Utilities Commission would be involved. This would likely involve a variety of lawsuits because PG&E isn’t interested in this, we’d also need some sort of environmental review. If this all happened and the city and county of San Francisco was able to take over all of these poles and wires that currently belong to PG&E, then you need to staff the organization and run the organization. And I don’t know, who knows how to do that? Former PG&e workers. Maybe you find a whole bunch of new people. There’s just a lot that goes into this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:08:05] When Sacramento took over its utility and lessons for the rest of us. That’s coming up after the break. Are there examples of other California cities doing this that we can point to? That would be instructive here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:08:30] So, in 1923, Sacramento residents were really fed up with PG&E. They were fed up high rates and poor service, does that sound familiar? So they voted overwhelmingly, 87%, to establish what is called SMUD, the Sacramento Municipal Utility District, which is a public utility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] In 1923, Sacramento residents voted to establish SMUD, and voters finally approved a $12 million bond to do that in 1934.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:09:05] So I spoke to Mohit Chhabra. He’s an analyst at the Natural Resources Defense Council. He focuses on energy and economics and climate about how this played out in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:09:16] And then it took them 23 years after that to start serving customers as SMUD. Because there were legal battles. PG&E challenged Sacramento’s eminent domain claim in state and federal courts. And you have to figure out exactly how much you need to pay to buy them out and so on. And it took 23 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:09:40] There were operational challenges. SMUD inherited aging infrastructure, poorly maintained infrastructure. They had trouble recruiting workers. They actually had their prices increase around the 70s and 80s. And then now, here we are today, and SMUD is actually doing very well. Their prices are way cheaper than PG&E’s. People seem more happy with it, but it’s taken quite some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:10:12] Are the gains from owning the utility public, worth the amount of money, time and effort that San Francisco would spend to buy out a section of PG&E and start running its own public utility? That’s the key question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:10:38] I mean, I can’t imagine if you’re PG&E right now and you’re seeing all of this anger towards you and you are seeing talk of taking over, buying out your infrastructure in San Francisco. I can imagine they’re thrilled about the idea of this. What has PG&e said about this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:10:55] Right. So I reached out to PG&E. They provided me with a statement. You know, they don’t intend to give away or sell their infrastructure in San Francisco. They want to continue to serve San Francisco They also bring up that San Francisco offered to buy PG&Es electric grid in San Francisco in 2019. But that is still in process. And they have said that San Francisco has failed to sort of provide a bunch of things that. Are needed to move forward with that process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] So we’ve established that taking over PG&E would be very expensive. It would take a lot of time. Um, but if San Francisco was able to do this, what could that mean for the rest of the state?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:11:41] There could be a lot of impacts on our neighbors. So for one, if San Francisco opts out of PG&E, prices for the rest of Californians will likely increase. And that’s because some of the more expensive parts of the system and what we’re spending on right now is protecting against wildfires, paying for past wildfires protecting against future ones. And those areas that we need to work on are in more fire prone areas, that’s not San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:12:12] Someone needs to pay for the shared part of the grid. If different parts of the state start doing that, and it’s likely going to be the wealthier cities, it’s the less wealthy cities that are left footing the bill for the grid\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:12:26] This is something Mohit Chhabra has thought a lot about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:12:29] The wealthiest cities can buy themselves out. They have the densest grid. They stand to gain the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] We’d also be removing this source of income for these programs that help offset the cost of PG&E. So about 30% of PG and E customers get reduced bills through programs like one’s called CARE. But that comes from subsidization from everybody paying in. And so if you’re taking off like a wealthier city, then again, those costs are gonna be distributed throughout the rest of the customers that aren’t part of that public power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:13:14] All this said, Laura, the argument, right, is that if we take over PG&E, we can have more affordable power, more reliable power that isn’t beholden to increasing profits for investors. Do we know whether public power is better?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] So it’s really a mixed bag. It’s like, if you look at SMUD, it’s like works really well. And then if you at Puerto Rico, it hasn’t worked really well, so it just, it depends on implementation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:13:43] Whether or not San Francisco or even the state of California can take over PG&E, there is this public anger, like now. So where does this, you know, public pressure, where does this anger go in the meantime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:14:00] Yeah. So this anger, you know, even if it doesn’t lead to a public power takeover and, you know, San Francisco power or whatever we would call it, it can go somewhere. This all this public pressure and this intensified scrutiny on the power grid in places where we don’t have wildfire could actually be useful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Toney \u003c/strong>[00:14:19] Maybe it will take a credible campaign to wake up PG&E to what they need to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:14:29] I spoke to Mark Toney, he’s the executive director of the Utility Reform Network. And while his organization doesn’t take a position on local campaigns to create public power entities and believes, you know, communities, this is in your purview to do, he brought up the point that it could increase accountability for PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Toney \u003c/strong>[00:14:50] I don’t want to discourage this campaign, public power campaign, and I’ll tell you why. Because if there is a real threat that they may lose the franchise, maybe that will provide the motivation to do a better job, to bring the rates down, to increase the of their facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:15:15] At least these calls and this pressure might turn PG&E’s attention or the attention of other people who hold them accountable to infrastructure in San Francisco. So you know, maybe public power doesn’t happen, but maybe PG&E prioritizes San Francisco’s infrastructure more than they have.\u003c/p>\n\n",
"blocks": [],
"excerpt": "A series of power outages in San Francisco has renewed calls for cities — or even the state — to take over PG&E.",
"status": "publish",
"parent": 0,
"modified": 1768257602,
"stats": {
"hasAudio": true,
"hasVideo": false,
"hasChartOrMap": false,
"iframeSrcs": [],
"hasGoogleForm": false,
"hasGallery": false,
"hasHearkenModule": false,
"hasPolis": false,
"paragraphCount": 54,
"wordCount": 2788
},
"headData": {
"title": "Could San Francisco Really Take Over PG&E? | KQED",
"description": "A series of power outages in San Francisco has renewed calls for cities — or even the state — to take over PG&E.",
"ogTitle": "",
"ogDescription": "",
"ogImgId": "",
"twTitle": "",
"twDescription": "",
"twImgId": "",
"schema": {
"@context": "https://schema.org",
"@type": "NewsArticle",
"headline": "Could San Francisco Really Take Over PG&E?",
"datePublished": "2026-01-12T03:00:26-08:00",
"dateModified": "2026-01-12T14:40:02-08:00",
"image": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"isAccessibleForFree": "True",
"publisher": {
"@type": "NewsMediaOrganization",
"@id": "https://www.kqed.org/#organization",
"name": "KQED",
"logo": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"url": "https://www.kqed.org",
"sameAs": [
"https://www.facebook.com/KQED",
"https://twitter.com/KQED",
"https://www.instagram.com/kqed/",
"https://www.tiktok.com/@kqedofficial",
"https://www.linkedin.com/company/kqed",
"https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeC0IOo7i1P_61zVUWbJ4nw"
]
}
}
},
"primaryCategory": {
"termId": 28250,
"slug": "local",
"name": "Local"
},
"source": "The Bay",
"sourceUrl": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"audioUrl": "https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9963352964.mp3",
"sticky": false,
"nprStoryId": "kqed-12069285",
"templateType": "standard",
"featuredImageType": "standard",
"excludeFromSiteSearch": "Include",
"articleAge": "0",
"path": "/news/12069285/could-san-francisco-really-take-over-pge",
"audioTrackLength": null,
"parsedContent": [
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Francisco residents are furious with Pacific Gas & Electric after nearly one third of the city was hit by a series of power outages over the holiday season. This public outrage has also revived calls for the city — or even the state — to take over the investor-owned utility.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9963352964&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ci>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/i>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Alan Montecillo, in for Erika Cruz Guevara, and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. A few weeks ago during the holiday season, San Francisco was hit with a series of power outages. Businesses lost customers during the busiest weekend of the year, restaurants had to throw out food, and some people didn’t get their power back for days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Susan Molthen \u003c/strong>[00:00:27] It’s terrible, I have a restaurant and I had a party of over 15-16 people last night and I had to call them all to cancel. This is my livelihood and I can’t, I can’ open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "fullwidth"
},
"numeric": [
"fullwidth"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Desi Valdez \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] Haven’t been able to do anything I needed to do. So I’ve just been sitting around in the dark, trying to find motivation, but it’s hard when there’s nothing to turn on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:00:51] San Francisco residents, especially on the city’s west side, are furious with PG&E. And all this chaos has some people wondering whether it’s time for the city to go even further and take over the investor-owned utility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Wiener \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] It’s time for us to move forward, for San Francisco to be able to break away from PG&E to form our own public utility. We’ve got to get this done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:17] Today, what it would take for San Francisco to break up with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:01:26] On December 20th, there was a fire at a substation, like a power substation PG&E in Soma, Mission and Eighth Streets, which led to power outages for roughly a third of San Francisco customers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:01:42] Laura Klivans is a climate reporter for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:01:47] The neighborhoods that were most affected were Richmond, sort of the west side, Presidio, parts of the sunset. We even saw some of the Fillmore, some of Hayes Valley, some parts of downtown. For different people, it lasted for different time periods. So if you talk to somebody in the Richmond, they really got it the worst. They got it for sustained periods of time, some up to two or three days, and then multiple outages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:02:15] I remember that first one that lasted for some residents 48 hours maybe, and there were several more after that, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:02:23] Yeah, there were several others after that, not lasting as long. PG&E attempted to fix and restore power. They put in these diesel generators in the Richmond district, which were extremely loud and residents didn’t like those either. And then the impacts on people were significant. A lot of people lost the stuff in their fridge. There was all sorts of regular nuisances. And for businesses too, it was a holiday week, a lot of people were going out to restaurants and stuff and they were losing all their produce or fish or whatever it might be. PG&E has offered to give people money for this stuff, 200 bucks for residents on your credit on your next bill and 2,500 for businesses and you could apply for even more. But for some people, it’s more than just like a nuisance and an inconvenience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Spencer-Martin \u003c/strong>[00:03:15] I’m in a wheelchair. I’m gonna power wheelchair. I wouldn’t be able to charge my chair. I wouldn’t be able get out of my building or into my building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] I talked to San Francisco residents, including Kai Spencer Martin, about this latest power loss.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Spencer-Martin \u003c/strong>[00:03:29] If the power went out, I wouldn’t be able to go out and buy new groceries because my groceries went bad. We’d go hungry. My family. And it’s not just me. It’s me, my husband, my teenage son.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:03:40] Luckily, she said the lights all around her building went out and hers didn’t. And she found out later that they have a backup generator in her building. So she was really lucky. But she’s an example of like how it’s more than just an inconvenience, right? Like it’s just more than eating a weird meal and trying to keep your fridge closed. She also has medications that need to be refrigerated, uses a nebulizer for asthma, and her husband uses a CPAP machine for sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Spencer-Martin \u003c/strong>[00:04:08] I have other friends that have disabilities that live in some of the downtown SROs that were out of power, um, for days, some of them just went hungry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:04:25] How much anger were you seeing, and are still seeing, as a result of this power outage and the ones that came after?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:04:34] Yeah, I mean, I think many people are familiar with how people already feel about PG&E. And if you look at like any Reddit forum about this power outage, it’s just like full of livid people, understandably, and people saying, how is this our one choice? People are upset for how much they’re paying for this power that isn’t very reliable. And all of this anger has led for calls for the city to take over PG&e.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Wiener \u003c/strong>[00:05:07] PG&E is too large. It’s not adequately maintaining its infrastructure as we saw this weekend yet again with the substation that caught on fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:05:17] State Senator Scott Wiener, he has just recently in the last few days introduced legislation that would make it easier for cities to break away from PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Scott Wiener \u003c/strong>[00:05:29] When giant corporations put profits over the public interest, it is time for us to act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:05:36] And then we have other local officials supporting it, like San Francisco Supervisor Matt Dorsey. Why is that the solution that many people are thinking about now? Because PG&E is an investor-owned utility, which means it is motivated by profit in part, because they have investors and they need to offer them a return to make it worth them investing in the company. If PG&e were public, it would not have that motivation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:06:03] Is the idea that a takeover would lead to cheaper and better?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:06:11] That’s the idea, yeah. So if you look at some other examples, there are some places that have public power and they are paying way lower rates than people who have PG&E. And also, by having local control, you have more control of the grid that’s in front of you and the priorities in your smaller area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:06:33] So how does this happen exactly? Can San Francisco just make PG&E an offer? I mean, is PG&e even for sale in San Francisco or anywhere?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:06:42] PG&E is not for sale, and they are not interested in selling all their infrastructure in San Francisco, but through a process called eminent domain, it could be possible. And what this would mean would be that San Francisco, it’s within their purview to take private property for public use as long as it pays fair compensation. So it would mean buying the part of the grid that PG&E owns and also paying for the cost of separating that out. We would need to have regulators involved. The California Public Utilities Commission would be involved. This would likely involve a variety of lawsuits because PG&E isn’t interested in this, we’d also need some sort of environmental review. If this all happened and the city and county of San Francisco was able to take over all of these poles and wires that currently belong to PG&E, then you need to staff the organization and run the organization. And I don’t know, who knows how to do that? Former PG&e workers. Maybe you find a whole bunch of new people. There’s just a lot that goes into this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:08:05] When Sacramento took over its utility and lessons for the rest of us. That’s coming up after the break. Are there examples of other California cities doing this that we can point to? That would be instructive here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:08:30] So, in 1923, Sacramento residents were really fed up with PG&E. They were fed up high rates and poor service, does that sound familiar? So they voted overwhelmingly, 87%, to establish what is called SMUD, the Sacramento Municipal Utility District, which is a public utility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] In 1923, Sacramento residents voted to establish SMUD, and voters finally approved a $12 million bond to do that in 1934.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:09:05] So I spoke to Mohit Chhabra. He’s an analyst at the Natural Resources Defense Council. He focuses on energy and economics and climate about how this played out in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:09:16] And then it took them 23 years after that to start serving customers as SMUD. Because there were legal battles. PG&E challenged Sacramento’s eminent domain claim in state and federal courts. And you have to figure out exactly how much you need to pay to buy them out and so on. And it took 23 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:09:40] There were operational challenges. SMUD inherited aging infrastructure, poorly maintained infrastructure. They had trouble recruiting workers. They actually had their prices increase around the 70s and 80s. And then now, here we are today, and SMUD is actually doing very well. Their prices are way cheaper than PG&E’s. People seem more happy with it, but it’s taken quite some time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:10:12] Are the gains from owning the utility public, worth the amount of money, time and effort that San Francisco would spend to buy out a section of PG&E and start running its own public utility? That’s the key question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:10:38] I mean, I can’t imagine if you’re PG&E right now and you’re seeing all of this anger towards you and you are seeing talk of taking over, buying out your infrastructure in San Francisco. I can imagine they’re thrilled about the idea of this. What has PG&e said about this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:10:55] Right. So I reached out to PG&E. They provided me with a statement. You know, they don’t intend to give away or sell their infrastructure in San Francisco. They want to continue to serve San Francisco They also bring up that San Francisco offered to buy PG&Es electric grid in San Francisco in 2019. But that is still in process. And they have said that San Francisco has failed to sort of provide a bunch of things that. Are needed to move forward with that process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:11:28] So we’ve established that taking over PG&E would be very expensive. It would take a lot of time. Um, but if San Francisco was able to do this, what could that mean for the rest of the state?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:11:41] There could be a lot of impacts on our neighbors. So for one, if San Francisco opts out of PG&E, prices for the rest of Californians will likely increase. And that’s because some of the more expensive parts of the system and what we’re spending on right now is protecting against wildfires, paying for past wildfires protecting against future ones. And those areas that we need to work on are in more fire prone areas, that’s not San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:12:12] Someone needs to pay for the shared part of the grid. If different parts of the state start doing that, and it’s likely going to be the wealthier cities, it’s the less wealthy cities that are left footing the bill for the grid\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:12:26] This is something Mohit Chhabra has thought a lot about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mohit Chhabra \u003c/strong>[00:12:29] The wealthiest cities can buy themselves out. They have the densest grid. They stand to gain the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:12:38] We’d also be removing this source of income for these programs that help offset the cost of PG&E. So about 30% of PG and E customers get reduced bills through programs like one’s called CARE. But that comes from subsidization from everybody paying in. And so if you’re taking off like a wealthier city, then again, those costs are gonna be distributed throughout the rest of the customers that aren’t part of that public power.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:13:14] All this said, Laura, the argument, right, is that if we take over PG&E, we can have more affordable power, more reliable power that isn’t beholden to increasing profits for investors. Do we know whether public power is better?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] So it’s really a mixed bag. It’s like, if you look at SMUD, it’s like works really well. And then if you at Puerto Rico, it hasn’t worked really well, so it just, it depends on implementation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alan Montecillo \u003c/strong>[00:13:43] Whether or not San Francisco or even the state of California can take over PG&E, there is this public anger, like now. So where does this, you know, public pressure, where does this anger go in the meantime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:14:00] Yeah. So this anger, you know, even if it doesn’t lead to a public power takeover and, you know, San Francisco power or whatever we would call it, it can go somewhere. This all this public pressure and this intensified scrutiny on the power grid in places where we don’t have wildfire could actually be useful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Toney \u003c/strong>[00:14:19] Maybe it will take a credible campaign to wake up PG&E to what they need to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:14:29] I spoke to Mark Toney, he’s the executive director of the Utility Reform Network. And while his organization doesn’t take a position on local campaigns to create public power entities and believes, you know, communities, this is in your purview to do, he brought up the point that it could increase accountability for PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Toney \u003c/strong>[00:14:50] I don’t want to discourage this campaign, public power campaign, and I’ll tell you why. Because if there is a real threat that they may lose the franchise, maybe that will provide the motivation to do a better job, to bring the rates down, to increase the of their facilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
},
{
"type": "component",
"content": "",
"name": "ad",
"attributes": {
"named": {
"label": "floatright"
},
"numeric": [
"floatright"
]
}
},
{
"type": "contentString",
"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Klivans \u003c/strong>[00:15:15] At least these calls and this pressure might turn PG&E’s attention or the attention of other people who hold them accountable to infrastructure in San Francisco. So you know, maybe public power doesn’t happen, but maybe PG&E prioritizes San Francisco’s infrastructure more than they have.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
"attributes": {
"named": {},
"numeric": []
}
}
],
"link": "/news/12069285/could-san-francisco-really-take-over-pge",
"authors": [
"11649",
"8648",
"11946",
"11831"
],
"categories": [
"news_28250",
"news_8"
],
"tags": [
"news_33812",
"news_140",
"news_38",
"news_22598"
],
"featImg": "news_11725572",
"label": "source_news_12069285"
}
},
"podcastsReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": false,
"podcasts": {}
},
"radioProgramsReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": false,
"radioPrograms": {}
},
"programsReducer": {
"all-things-considered": {
"id": "all-things-considered",
"title": "All Things Considered",
"info": "Every weekday, \u003cem>All Things Considered\u003c/em> hosts Robert Siegel, Audie Cornish, Ari Shapiro, and Kelly McEvers present the program's trademark mix of news, interviews, commentaries, reviews, and offbeat features. Michel Martin hosts on the weekends.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 1pm-2pm, 4:30pm-6:30pm\u003cbr />SAT-SUN 5pm-6pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/All-Things-Considered-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/all-things-considered/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/all-things-considered"
},
"american-suburb-podcast": {
"id": "american-suburb-podcast",
"title": "American Suburb: The Podcast",
"tagline": "The flip side of gentrification, told through one town",
"info": "Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/American-Suburb-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/news/series/american-suburb-podcast",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 19
},
"link": "/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/RBrW",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?mt=2&id=1287748328",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/American-Suburb-p1086805/",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/feed/podcast",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkMzMDExODgxNjA5"
}
},
"baycurious": {
"id": "baycurious",
"title": "Bay Curious",
"tagline": "Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time",
"info": "KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Bay Curious",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/news/series/baycurious",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 3
},
"link": "/podcasts/baycurious",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/category/bay-curious-podcast/feed/podcast",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/9a90d476-aa04-455d-9a4c-0871ed6216d4/bay-curious",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/bay-curious",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/6O76IdmhixfijmhTZLIJ8k"
}
},
"bbc-world-service": {
"id": "bbc-world-service",
"title": "BBC World Service",
"info": "The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "BBC World Service"
},
"link": "/radio/program/bbc-world-service",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/",
"rss": "https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"
}
},
"californiareport": {
"id": "californiareport",
"title": "The California Report",
"tagline": "California, day by day",
"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The California Report",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 8
},
"link": "/californiareport",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-the-california-report/id79681292",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/26099305-72af-4542-9dde-ac1807fe36d5/kqed-s-the-california-report",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432285393/the-california-report",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqedfm-kqeds-the-california-report-podcast-8838",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/tcram/feed/podcast"
}
},
"californiareportmagazine": {
"id": "californiareportmagazine",
"title": "The California Report Magazine",
"tagline": "Your state, your stories",
"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
"airtime": "FRI 4:30pm-5pm, 6:30pm-7pm, 11pm-11:30pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-California-Report-Magazine-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The California Report Magazine",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 10
},
"link": "/californiareportmagazine",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/564733126/the-california-report-magazine",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-california-report-magazine",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/tcrmag/feed/podcast"
}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.cityarts.net/",
"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
"subscribe": {
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/City-Arts-and-Lectures-p692/",
"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
"title": "Close All Tabs",
"tagline": "Your irreverent guide to the trends redefining our world",
"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/CAT_2_Tile-scaled.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Close All Tabs",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 1
},
"link": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/close-all-tabs/id214663465",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC6993880386",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/92d9d4ac-67a3-4eed-b10a-fb45d45b1ef2/close-all-tabs",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/6LAJFHnGK1pYXYzv6SIol6?si=deb0cae19813417c"
}
},
"code-switch-life-kit": {
"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
"airtime": "SUN 9pm-10pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Code-Switch-Life-Kit-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/code-switch-life-kit",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/1112190608?mt=2&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3bExJ9JQpkwNhoHvaIIuyV",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510312/podcast.xml"
}
},
"commonwealth-club": {
"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
"airtime": "THU 10pm, FRI 1am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.commonwealthclub.org/podcasts",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/commonwealth-club-of-california-podcast/id976334034?mt=2",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Commonwealth-Club-of-California-p1060/"
}
},
"forum": {
"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/forum",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
"link": "/forum",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kqeds-forum/id73329719",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432307980/forum",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqedfm-kqeds-forum-podcast",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC9557381633"
}
},
"freakonomics-radio": {
"id": "freakonomics-radio",
"title": "Freakonomics Radio",
"info": "Freakonomics Radio is a one-hour award-winning podcast and public-radio project hosted by Stephen Dubner, with co-author Steve Levitt as a regular guest. It is produced in partnership with WNYC.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/freakonomicsRadio.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/4s8b",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
}
},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 7pm-8pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Fresh-Air-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/fresh-air/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/fresh-air",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/4s8b",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Fresh-Air-p17/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
}
},
"here-and-now": {
"id": "here-and-now",
"title": "Here & Now",
"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
"airtime": "MON-THU 11am-12pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Here-And-Now-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://www.wbur.org/hereandnow",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/here-and-now",
"subsdcribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?mt=2&id=426698661",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Here--Now-p211/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
}
},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/hiddenbrain.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/423302056/hidden-brain",
"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-brain/id1028908750?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Science-Podcasts/Hidden-Brain-p787503/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510308/podcast.xml"
}
},
"how-i-built-this": {
"id": "how-i-built-this",
"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Arts--Culture-Podcasts/How-I-Built-This-p910896/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
}
},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
"imageAlt": "KQED Hyphenación",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hyphenaci%C3%B3n/id1191591838",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
"youtube": "https://www.youtube.com/c/kqedarts",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
}
},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/790253322/the-political-mind-of-jerry-brown",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/series/jerrybrown/feed/podcast/",
"tuneIn": "http://tun.in/pjGcK",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-political-mind-of-jerry-brown",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/54C1dmuyFyKMFttY6X2j6r?si=K8SgRCoISNK6ZbjpXrX5-w",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/44420f75-3b0e-4301-ab3b-16da6b09e543/the-political-mind-of-jerry-brown"
}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/xtTd",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Latino-USA-p621/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=201853034&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/APM-Marketplace-p88/",
"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
}
},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Masters-of-Scale-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0MxSpNYZKNprFLCl7eEtyx"
}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/onourwatch",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/0OLWoyizopu6tY1XiuX70x",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-Our-Watch-p1436229/",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"
}
},
"planet-money": {
"id": "planet-money",
"title": "Planet Money",
"info": "The economy explained. Imagine you could call up a friend and say, Meet me at the bar and tell me what's going on with the economy. Now imagine that's actually a fun evening.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/planetmoney.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/sections/money/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/planet-money",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/M4f5",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/planet-money/id290783428?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/Business--Economics-Podcasts/Planet-Money-p164680/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510289/podcast.xml"
}
},
"politicalbreakdown": {
"id": "politicalbreakdown",
"title": "Political Breakdown",
"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
"airtime": "THU 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Political-Breakdown-2024-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Political Breakdown",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 5
},
"link": "/podcasts/politicalbreakdown",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/political-breakdown/id1327641087",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/e0c2d153-ad36-4c8d-901d-f1da6a724824/political-breakdown",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/572155894/political-breakdown",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/political-breakdown",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/07RVyIjIdk2WDuVehvBMoN",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/tag/political-breakdown/feed/podcast"
}
},
"possible": {
"id": "possible",
"title": "Possible",
"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.possible.fm/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "Possible"
},
"link": "/radio/program/possible",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/possible/id1677184070",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"
}
},
"pri-the-world": {
"id": "pri-the-world",
"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-World-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pri.org/programs/the-world",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "PRI"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pri-the-world",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pris-the-world-latest-edition/id278196007?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/PRIs-The-World-p24/",
"rss": "http://feeds.feedburner.com/pri/theworld"
}
},
"radiolab": {
"id": "radiolab",
"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
"airtime": "SUN 12am-1am, SAT 2pm-3pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/radiolab1400.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/radiolab/",
"meta": {
"site": "science",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/radiolab",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/radiolab/id152249110?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/RadioLab-p68032/",
"rss": "https://feeds.wnyc.org/radiolab"
}
},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
"airtime": "SAT 4pm-5pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/reveal300px.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/reveal",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/reveal/id886009669",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Reveal-p679597/",
"rss": "http://feeds.revealradio.org/revealpodcast"
}
},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
"tagline": "Art is where you find it",
"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Rightnowish-Podcast-Tile-500x500-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Rightnowish with Pendarvis Harshaw",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/rightnowish",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 16
},
"link": "/podcasts/rightnowish",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/721590300/rightnowish",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/arts/programs/rightnowish/feed/podcast",
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rightnowish/id1482187648",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/rightnowish",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkMxMjU5MTY3NDc4",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/7kEJuafTzTVan7B78ttz1I"
}
},
"science-friday": {
"id": "science-friday",
"title": "Science Friday",
"info": "Science Friday is a weekly science talk show, broadcast live over public radio stations nationwide. Each week, the show focuses on science topics that are in the news and tries to bring an educated, balanced discussion to bear on the scientific issues at hand. Panels of expert guests join host Ira Flatow, a veteran science journalist, to discuss science and to take questions from listeners during the call-in portion of the program.",
"airtime": "FRI 11am-1pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Science-Friday-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/science-friday",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/science-friday",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=73329284&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Science-Friday-p394/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/science-friday"
}
},
"snap-judgment": {
"id": "snap-judgment",
"title": "Snap Judgment",
"tagline": "Real stories with killer beats",
"info": "The Snap Judgment radio show and podcast mixes real stories with killer beats to produce cinematic, dramatic radio. Snap's musical brand of storytelling dares listeners to see the world through the eyes of another. This is storytelling... with a BEAT!! Snap first aired on public radio stations nationwide in July 2010. Today, Snap Judgment airs on over 450 public radio stations and is brought to the airwaves by KQED & PRX.",
"airtime": "SAT 1pm-2pm, 9pm-10pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Snap-Judgment-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Snap Judgment",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://snapjudgment.org",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 4
},
"link": "https://snapjudgment.org",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/snap-judgment/id283657561",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/449018144/snap-judgment",
"stitcher": "https://www.pandora.com/podcast/snap-judgment/PC:241?source=stitcher-sunset",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3Cct7ZWmxHNAtLgBTqjC5v",
"rss": "https://snap.feed.snapjudgment.org/"
}
},
"soldout": {
"id": "soldout",
"title": "SOLD OUT: Rethinking Housing in America",
"tagline": "A new future for housing",
"info": "Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Sold-Out-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Sold Out: Rethinking Housing in America",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/soldout",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 13
},
"link": "/podcasts/soldout",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/911586047/s-o-l-d-o-u-t-a-new-future-for-housing",
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/introducing-sold-out-rethinking-housing-in-america/id1531354937",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/soldout",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/38dTBSk2ISFoPiyYNoKn1X",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/sold-out-rethinking-housing-in-america",
"tunein": "https://tunein.com/radio/SOLD-OUT-Rethinking-Housing-in-America-p1365871/"
}
},
"spooked": {
"id": "spooked",
"title": "Spooked",
"tagline": "True-life supernatural stories",
"info": "",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/Spooked-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Spooked",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://spookedpodcast.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 7
},
"link": "https://spookedpodcast.org/",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/spooked/id1279361017",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/549547848/snap-judgment-presents-spooked",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/76571Rfl3m7PLJQZKQIGCT",
"rss": "https://feeds.simplecast.com/TBotaapn"
}
},
"tech-nation": {
"id": "tech-nation",
"title": "Tech Nation Radio Podcast",
"info": "Tech Nation is a weekly public radio program, hosted by Dr. Moira Gunn. Founded in 1993, it has grown from a simple interview show to a multi-faceted production, featuring conversations with noted technology and science leaders, and a weekly science and technology-related commentary.",
"airtime": "FRI 10pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Tech-Nation-Radio-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://technation.podomatic.com/",
"meta": {
"site": "science",
"source": "Tech Nation Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/tech-nation",
"subscribe": {
"rss": "https://technation.podomatic.com/rss2.xml"
}
},
"ted-radio-hour": {
"id": "ted-radio-hour",
"title": "TED Radio Hour",
"info": "The TED Radio Hour is a journey through fascinating ideas, astonishing inventions, fresh approaches to old problems, and new ways to think and create.",
"airtime": "SUN 3pm-4pm, SAT 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/tedRadioHour.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/ted-radio-hour/?showDate=2018-06-22",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/ted-radio-hour",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/8vsS",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=523121474&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/TED-Radio-Hour-p418021/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510298/podcast.xml"
}
},
"thebay": {
"id": "thebay",
"title": "The Bay",
"tagline": "Local news to keep you rooted",
"info": "Host Devin Katayama walks you through the biggest story of the day with reporters and newsmakers.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Bay-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Bay",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/thebay",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 2
},
"link": "/podcasts/thebay",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-bay/id1350043452",
"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/d800ea4c-7a2c-42f2-b861-edaf78a5db0b/the-bay",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/586725995/the-bay",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-bay",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/4BIKBKIujizLHlIlBNaAqQ",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC8259786327"
}
},
"thelatest": {
"id": "thelatest",
"title": "The Latest",
"tagline": "Trusted local news in real time",
"info": "",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/The-Latest-2025-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Latest",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/thelatest",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 6
},
"link": "/thelatest",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-latest-from-kqed/id1197721799",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/1257949365/the-latest-from-k-q-e-d",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/5KIIXMgM9GTi5AepwOYvIZ?si=bd3053fec7244dba",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC9137121918"
}
},
"theleap": {
"id": "theleap",
"title": "The Leap",
"tagline": "What if you closed your eyes, and jumped?",
"info": "Stories about people making dramatic, risky changes, told by award-winning public radio reporter Judy Campbell.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Leap-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED The Leap",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/theleap",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 17
},
"link": "/podcasts/theleap",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-leap/id1046668171",
"npr": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/447248267/the-leap",
"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/the-leap",
"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/3sSlVHHzU0ytLwuGs1SD1U",
"rss": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/programs/the-leap/feed/podcast"
}
},
"the-moth-radio-hour": {
"id": "the-moth-radio-hour",
"title": "The Moth Radio Hour",
"info": "Since its launch in 1997, The Moth has presented thousands of true stories, told live and without notes, to standing-room-only crowds worldwide. Moth storytellers stand alone, under a spotlight, with only a microphone and a roomful of strangers. The storyteller and the audience embark on a high-wire act of shared experience which is both terrifying and exhilarating. Since 2008, The Moth podcast has featured many of our favorite stories told live on Moth stages around the country. For information on all of our programs and live events, visit themoth.org.",
"airtime": "SAT 8pm-9pm and SUN 11am-12pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/theMoth.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://themoth.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "prx"
},
"link": "/radio/program/the-moth-radio-hour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-moth-podcast/id275699983?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/The-Moth-p273888/",
"rss": "http://feeds.themoth.org/themothpodcast"
}
},
"the-new-yorker-radio-hour": {
"id": "the-new-yorker-radio-hour",
"title": "The New Yorker Radio Hour",
"info": "The New Yorker Radio Hour is a weekly program presented by the magazine's editor, David Remnick, and produced by WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Each episode features a diverse mix of interviews, profiles, storytelling, and an occasional burst of humor inspired by the magazine, and shaped by its writers, artists, and editors. This isn't a radio version of a magazine, but something all its own, reflecting the rich possibilities of audio storytelling and conversation. Theme music for the show was composed and performed by Merrill Garbus of tUnE-YArDs.",
"airtime": "SAT 10am-11am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-New-Yorker-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/tnyradiohour",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/the-new-yorker-radio-hour",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1050430296",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/New-Yorker-Radio-Hour-p803804/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/newyorkerradiohour"
}
},
"the-sam-sanders-show": {
"id": "the-sam-sanders-show",
"title": "The Sam Sanders Show",
"info": "One of public radio's most dynamic voices, Sam Sanders helped launch The NPR Politics Podcast and hosted NPR's hit show It's Been A Minute. Now, the award-winning host returns with something brand new, The Sam Sanders Show. Every week, Sam Sanders and friends dig into the culture that shapes our lives: what's driving the biggest trends, how artists really think, and even the memes you can't stop scrolling past. Sam is beloved for his way of unpacking the world and bringing you up close to fresh currents and engaging conversations. The Sam Sanders Show is smart, funny and always a good time.",
"airtime": "FRI 12-1pm AND SAT 11am-12pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/The-Sam-Sanders-Show-Podcast-Tile-400x400-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.kcrw.com/shows/the-sam-sanders-show/latest",
"meta": {
"site": "arts",
"source": "KCRW"
},
"link": "https://www.kcrw.com/shows/the-sam-sanders-show/latest",
"subscribe": {
"rss": "https://feed.cdnstream1.com/zjb/feed/download/ac/28/59/ac28594c-e1d0-4231-8728-61865cdc80e8.xml"
}
},
"the-splendid-table": {
"id": "the-splendid-table",
"title": "The Splendid Table",
"info": "\u003cem>The Splendid Table\u003c/em> hosts our nation's conversations about cooking, sustainability and food culture.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Splendid-Table-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.splendidtable.org/",
"airtime": "SUN 10-11 pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/the-splendid-table"
},
"this-american-life": {
"id": "this-american-life",
"title": "This American Life",
"info": "This American Life is a weekly public radio show, heard by 2.2 million people on more than 500 stations. Another 2.5 million people download the weekly podcast. It is hosted by Ira Glass, produced in collaboration with Chicago Public Media, delivered to stations by PRX The Public Radio Exchange, and has won all of the major broadcasting awards.",
"airtime": "SAT 12pm-1pm, 7pm-8pm",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/thisAmericanLife.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.thisamericanlife.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "wbez"
},
"link": "/radio/program/this-american-life",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=201671138&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"rss": "https://www.thisamericanlife.org/podcast/rss.xml"
}
},
"tinydeskradio": {
"id": "tinydeskradio",
"title": "Tiny Desk Radio",
"info": "We're bringing the best of Tiny Desk to the airwaves, only on public radio.",
"airtime": "SUN 8pm and SAT 9pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/04/300x300-For-Member-Station-Logo-Tiny-Desk-Radio-@2x.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/series/g-s1-52030/tiny-desk-radio",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/tinydeskradio",
"subscribe": {
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/g-s1-52030/rss.xml"
}
},
"wait-wait-dont-tell-me": {
"id": "wait-wait-dont-tell-me",
"title": "Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!",
"info": "Peter Sagal and Bill Kurtis host the weekly NPR News quiz show alongside some of the best and brightest news and entertainment personalities.",
"airtime": "SUN 10am-11am, SAT 11am-12pm, SAT 6pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Wait-Wait-Podcast-Tile-300x300-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/wait-wait-dont-tell-me/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/wait-wait-dont-tell-me",
"subscribe": {
"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/Xogv",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=121493804&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/Wait-Wait-Dont-Tell-Me-p46/",
"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/344098539/podcast.xml"
}
},
"weekend-edition-saturday": {
"id": "weekend-edition-saturday",
"title": "Weekend Edition Saturday",
"info": "Weekend Edition Saturday wraps up the week's news and offers a mix of analysis and features on a wide range of topics, including arts, sports, entertainment, and human interest stories. The two-hour program is hosted by NPR's Peabody Award-winning Scott Simon.",
"airtime": "SAT 5am-10am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Weekend-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/weekend-edition-saturday/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/weekend-edition-saturday"
},
"weekend-edition-sunday": {
"id": "weekend-edition-sunday",
"title": "Weekend Edition Sunday",
"info": "Weekend Edition Sunday features interviews with newsmakers, artists, scientists, politicians, musicians, writers, theologians and historians. The program has covered news events from Nelson Mandela's 1990 release from a South African prison to the capture of Saddam Hussein.",
"airtime": "SUN 5am-10am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Weekend-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/weekend-edition-sunday/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/weekend-edition-sunday"
}
},
"racesReducer": {},
"racesGenElectionReducer": {},
"racesGenElection2026Reducer": {},
"radioSchedulesReducer": {},
"listsReducer": {
"posts?author=11946&authorName=Gabriela Glueck": {
"isFetching": false,
"latestQuery": {
"from": 0,
"size": 9
},
"vitalsOnly": false,
"totalRequested": 9,
"isLoading": false,
"isLoadingMore": true,
"total": {
"value": 19,
"relation": "eq"
},
"items": [
"news_12084476",
"news_12080794",
"news_12074525",
"news_12074002",
"news_12073645",
"news_12073611",
"news_12073361",
"news_12073100",
"news_12069285"
],
"complete": true
}
},
"recallGuideReducer": {
"intros": {},
"policy": {},
"candidates": {}
},
"savedArticleReducer": {
"articles": [],
"status": {}
},
"newslettersReducer": {
"isFetching": false,
"fetchFailed": false,
"hasFetched": false,
"newsletters": {},
"isSubscribing": false,
"isUnsubscribing": false,
"subscribedNewsletters": {}
},
"termsReducer": {
"about": {
"name": "About",
"type": "terms",
"id": "about",
"slug": "about",
"link": "/about",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"arts": {
"name": "Arts & Culture",
"grouping": [
"arts",
"pop",
"trulyca"
],
"description": "KQED Arts provides daily in-depth coverage of the Bay Area's music, art, film, performing arts, literature and arts news, as well as cultural commentary and criticism.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "arts",
"slug": "arts",
"link": "/arts",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"artschool": {
"name": "Art School",
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "artschool",
"slug": "artschool",
"link": "/artschool",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"bayareabites": {
"name": "KQED food",
"grouping": [
"food",
"bayareabites",
"checkplease"
],
"parent": "food",
"type": "terms",
"id": "bayareabites",
"slug": "bayareabites",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"bayareahiphop": {
"name": "Bay Area Hiphop",
"type": "terms",
"id": "bayareahiphop",
"slug": "bayareahiphop",
"link": "/bayareahiphop",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"campaign21": {
"name": "Campaign 21",
"type": "terms",
"id": "campaign21",
"slug": "campaign21",
"link": "/campaign21",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"careers": {
"name": "Careers",
"type": "terms",
"id": "careers",
"slug": "careers",
"link": "/careers",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"checkplease": {
"name": "KQED food",
"grouping": [
"food",
"bayareabites",
"checkplease"
],
"parent": "food",
"type": "terms",
"id": "checkplease",
"slug": "checkplease",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"education": {
"name": "Education",
"grouping": [
"education"
],
"type": "terms",
"id": "education",
"slug": "education",
"link": "/education",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"elections": {
"name": "Elections",
"type": "terms",
"id": "elections",
"slug": "elections",
"link": "/elections",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"events": {
"name": "Events",
"type": "terms",
"id": "events",
"slug": "events",
"link": "/events",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"event": {
"name": "Event",
"alias": "events",
"type": "terms",
"id": "event",
"slug": "event",
"link": "/event",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"filmschoolshorts": {
"name": "Film School Shorts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "filmschoolshorts",
"slug": "filmschoolshorts",
"link": "/filmschoolshorts",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"food": {
"name": "KQED food",
"grouping": [
"food",
"bayareabites",
"checkplease"
],
"type": "terms",
"id": "food",
"slug": "food",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"forum": {
"name": "Forum",
"relatedContentQuery": "posts/forum?",
"parent": "news",
"type": "terms",
"id": "forum",
"slug": "forum",
"link": "/forum",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"futureofyou": {
"name": "Future of You",
"grouping": [
"science",
"futureofyou"
],
"parent": "science",
"type": "terms",
"id": "futureofyou",
"slug": "futureofyou",
"link": "/futureofyou",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"jpepinheart": {
"name": "KQED food",
"relatedContentQuery": "posts/food,bayareabites,checkplease",
"parent": "food",
"type": "terms",
"id": "jpepinheart",
"slug": "jpepinheart",
"link": "/food",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"liveblog": {
"name": "Live Blog",
"type": "terms",
"id": "liveblog",
"slug": "liveblog",
"link": "/liveblog",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"livetv": {
"name": "Live TV",
"parent": "tv",
"type": "terms",
"id": "livetv",
"slug": "livetv",
"link": "/livetv",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"lowdown": {
"name": "The Lowdown",
"relatedContentQuery": "posts/lowdown?",
"parent": "news",
"type": "terms",
"id": "lowdown",
"slug": "lowdown",
"link": "/lowdown",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"mindshift": {
"name": "Mindshift",
"parent": "news",
"description": "MindShift explores the future of education by highlighting the innovative – and sometimes counterintuitive – ways educators and parents are helping all children succeed.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "mindshift",
"slug": "mindshift",
"link": "/mindshift",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"news": {
"name": "News",
"grouping": [
"news",
"forum"
],
"type": "terms",
"id": "news",
"slug": "news",
"link": "/news",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"newsletters": {
"name": "newsletters",
"type": "terms",
"id": "newsletters",
"slug": "newsletters",
"link": "/newsletters",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"perspectives": {
"name": "Perspectives",
"parent": "radio",
"type": "terms",
"id": "perspectives",
"slug": "perspectives",
"link": "/perspectives",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"podcasts": {
"name": "Podcasts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "podcasts",
"slug": "podcasts",
"link": "/podcasts",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"pop": {
"name": "Pop",
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "pop",
"slug": "pop",
"link": "/pop",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"pressroom": {
"name": "Pressroom",
"type": "terms",
"id": "pressroom",
"slug": "pressroom",
"link": "/pressroom",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"quest": {
"name": "Quest",
"parent": "science",
"type": "terms",
"id": "quest",
"slug": "quest",
"link": "/quest",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"radio": {
"name": "Radio",
"grouping": [
"forum",
"perspectives"
],
"description": "Listen to KQED Public Radio – home of Forum and The California Report – on 88.5 FM in San Francisco, 89.3 FM in Sacramento, 88.3 FM in Santa Rosa and 88.1 FM in Martinez.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "radio",
"slug": "radio",
"link": "/radio",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"root": {
"name": "KQED",
"image": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png",
"imageWidth": 1200,
"imageHeight": 630,
"headData": {
"title": "KQED | News, Radio, Podcasts, TV | Public Media for Northern California",
"description": "KQED provides public radio, television, and independent reporting on issues that matter to the Bay Area. We’re the NPR and PBS member station for Northern California."
},
"type": "terms",
"id": "root",
"slug": "root",
"link": "/root",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"science": {
"name": "Science",
"grouping": [
"science",
"futureofyou"
],
"description": "KQED Science brings you award-winning science and environment coverage from the Bay Area and beyond.",
"type": "terms",
"id": "science",
"slug": "science",
"link": "/science",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"stateofhealth": {
"name": "State of Health",
"parent": "science",
"type": "terms",
"id": "stateofhealth",
"slug": "stateofhealth",
"link": "/stateofhealth",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"support": {
"name": "Support",
"type": "terms",
"id": "support",
"slug": "support",
"link": "/support",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"thedolist": {
"name": "The Do List",
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "thedolist",
"slug": "thedolist",
"link": "/thedolist",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"trulyca": {
"name": "Truly CA",
"grouping": [
"arts",
"pop",
"trulyca"
],
"parent": "arts",
"type": "terms",
"id": "trulyca",
"slug": "trulyca",
"link": "/trulyca",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"tv": {
"name": "TV",
"type": "terms",
"id": "tv",
"slug": "tv",
"link": "/tv",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"voterguide": {
"name": "Voter Guide",
"parent": "elections",
"alias": "elections",
"type": "terms",
"id": "voterguide",
"slug": "voterguide",
"link": "/voterguide",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"guiaelectoral": {
"name": "Guia Electoral",
"parent": "elections",
"alias": "elections",
"type": "terms",
"id": "guiaelectoral",
"slug": "guiaelectoral",
"link": "/guiaelectoral",
"taxonomy": "site"
},
"source_news_12084476": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12084476",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "Bay Curious",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12080794": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12080794",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "Bay Curious",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12074525": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12074525",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "Close All Tabs",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12074002": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12074002",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "The Bay",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12073645": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12073645",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "Close All Tabs",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12073611": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12073611",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "The Bay",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12073361": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12073361",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "The Bay",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12073100": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12073100",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "Close All Tabs",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs",
"isLoading": false
},
"source_news_12069285": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "source_news_12069285",
"meta": {
"override": true
},
"name": "The Bay",
"link": "https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay",
"isLoading": false
},
"news_33523": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33523",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33523",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Bay Curious",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "program",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Bay Curious Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33540,
"slug": "bay-curious",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/program/bay-curious"
},
"news_34552": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_34552",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "34552",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "baycurious",
"slug": "baycurious",
"taxonomy": "program",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "baycurious | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 34569,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/program/baycurious"
},
"news_17986": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_17986",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "17986",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": "https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/BayCuriousLogoFinal01-e1493662037229.png",
"name": "Bay Curious",
"description": "\u003ch2>A podcast exploring the Bay Area one question at a time\u003c/h2>\r\n\r\n\u003caside>\r\n\u003cdiv style=\"width: 100%; padding-right: 20px;\">\r\n\r\nKQED’s \u003cstrong>Bay Curious\u003c/strong> gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.\r\n\u003cbr />\r\n\u003cspan class=\"alignleft\">\u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1172473406\">\u003cimg width=\"75px\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/DownloadOniTunes_100x100.png\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://goo.gl/app/playmusic?ibi=com.google.PlayMusic&isi=691797987&ius=googleplaymusic&link=https://play.google.com/music/m/Ipi2mc5aqfen4nr2daayiziiyuy?t%3DBay_Curious\">\u003cimg width=\"75px\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/Google_Play_100x100.png\">\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/div>\r\n\u003c/aside> \r\n\u003ch2>What's your question?\u003c/h2>\r\n\u003cdiv id=\"huxq6\" class=\"curiosity-module\" data-pym-src=\"//modules.wearehearken.com/kqed/curiosity_modules/133\">\u003c/div>\r\n\u003cscript src=\"//assets.wearehearken.com/production/thirdparty/p.m.js\">\u003c/script>\r\n\u003ch2>Bay Curious monthly newsletter\u003c/h2>\r\nWe're launching it soon! \u003ca href=\"https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEtzbyNbSQkRHCCAkKhoGiAl3Bd0zWxhk0ZseJ1KH_o_ZDjQ/viewform\" target=\"_blank\">Sign up\u003c/a> so you don't miss it when it drops.\r\n",
"taxonomy": "series",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": "A podcast exploring the Bay Area one question at a time KQED’s Bay Curious gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers. What's your question? Bay Curious monthly newsletter We're launching it soon! Sign up so you don't miss it when it drops.",
"title": "Bay Curious Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 18020,
"slug": "baycurious",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/series/baycurious"
},
"news_31795": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_31795",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "31795",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "California",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "California Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 31812,
"slug": "california",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/california"
},
"news_28250": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_28250",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "28250",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Local",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Local Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 28267,
"slug": "local",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/local"
},
"news_8": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_8",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "8",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "News",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "News Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 8,
"slug": "news",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/news"
},
"news_33520": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33520",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33520",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Podcast",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Podcast Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33537,
"slug": "podcast",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/podcast"
},
"news_3631": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_3631",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "3631",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Bay Area History",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Bay Area History Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 3649,
"slug": "bay-area-history",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/bay-area-history"
},
"news_18426": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_18426",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "18426",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Bay Curious",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Bay Curious Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 18460,
"slug": "bay-curious",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/bay-curious"
},
"news_3242": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_3242",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "3242",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "beaches",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "beaches Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 3260,
"slug": "beaches",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/beaches"
},
"news_129": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_129",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "129",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Berkeley",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Berkeley Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 133,
"slug": "berkeley",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/berkeley"
},
"news_18538": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_18538",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "18538",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "California",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "California Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 31,
"slug": "california",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/california"
},
"news_20397": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_20397",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "20397",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "California history",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "California history Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 20414,
"slug": "california-history",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/california-history"
},
"news_22973": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_22973",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "22973",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "culture",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "culture Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 22990,
"slug": "culture",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/culture"
},
"news_27626": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_27626",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "27626",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "featured-news",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "featured-news Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 27643,
"slug": "featured-news",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/featured-news"
},
"news_240": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_240",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "240",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Ocean Beach",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Ocean Beach Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 248,
"slug": "ocean-beach",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/ocean-beach"
},
"news_1071": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_1071",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "1071",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "surfing",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "surfing Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 1082,
"slug": "surfing",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/surfing"
},
"news_18383": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_18383",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "18383",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "swimming",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "swimming Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 18417,
"slug": "swimming",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/swimming"
},
"news_17597": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_17597",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "17597",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "UC Berkeley",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "UC Berkeley Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 17631,
"slug": "uc-berkeley",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/uc-berkeley"
},
"news_33742": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33742",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33742",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Berkeley",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Berkeley Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33759,
"slug": "berkeley",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/berkeley"
},
"news_33738": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33738",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33738",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "California",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "California Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33755,
"slug": "california",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/california"
},
"news_33733": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33733",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33733",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "News",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "News Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33750,
"slug": "news",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/news"
},
"news_28779": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_28779",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "28779",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "The Bay",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "program",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": "The Bay is a daily news and culture program from KQED that covers the latest headlines, trends, and stories that matter to the Bay Area.",
"title": "The Bay Area Archives | KQED",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 28796,
"slug": "the-bay",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/program/the-bay"
},
"news_19906": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_19906",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "19906",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Environment",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "category",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Environment Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 19923,
"slug": "environment",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/environment"
},
"news_1386": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_1386",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "1386",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Bay Area",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Bay Area Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 1398,
"slug": "bay-area",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/bay-area"
},
"news_24312": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_24312",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "24312",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Bay Area Food",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Bay Area Food Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 24329,
"slug": "bay-area-food",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/bay-area-food"
},
"news_6301": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_6301",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "6301",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "California Coastal Commission",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "California Coastal Commission Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 6325,
"slug": "california-coastal-commission",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/california-coastal-commission"
},
"news_31573": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_31573",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "31573",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "fast food",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "fast food Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 31590,
"slug": "fast-food",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/fast-food"
},
"news_5521": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_5521",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "5521",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Pacifica",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Pacifica Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 5544,
"slug": "pacifica",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/pacifica"
},
"news_33750": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33750",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33750",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Climate",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Climate Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33767,
"slug": "climate",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/climate"
},
"news_35082": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_35082",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "35082",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Close All Tabs",
"slug": "close-all-tabs",
"taxonomy": "program",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Close All Tabs | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 35099,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/program/close-all-tabs"
},
"news_25184": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_25184",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "25184",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "AI",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "AI Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 25201,
"slug": "ai",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/ai"
},
"news_35092": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_35092",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "35092",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "closealltabs",
"slug": "closealltabs",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "closealltabs | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 35109,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/closealltabs"
},
"news_23800": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_23800",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "23800",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "facial recognition",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "facial recognition Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 23817,
"slug": "facial-recognition",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/facial-recognition"
},
"news_3137": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_3137",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "3137",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "internet",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "internet Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 3155,
"slug": "internet",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/internet"
},
"news_31079": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_31079",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "31079",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "internet access",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "internet access Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 31096,
"slug": "internet-access",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/internet-access"
},
"news_34646": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_34646",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "34646",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "internet culture",
"slug": "internet-culture",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "internet culture | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 34663,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/internet-culture"
},
"news_2125": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_2125",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "2125",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "online privacy",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "online privacy Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 2140,
"slug": "online-privacy",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/online-privacy"
},
"news_1631": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_1631",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "1631",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Technology",
"slug": "technology",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Technology | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 1643,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/technology"
},
"news_33732": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33732",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33732",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Technology",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Technology Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33749,
"slug": "technology",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/technology"
},
"news_176": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_176",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "176",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Democrats",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Democrats Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 183,
"slug": "democrats",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/democrats"
},
"news_33812": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33812",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33812",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Interests",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Interests Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33829,
"slug": "interests",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/interests"
},
"news_17968": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_17968",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "17968",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Politics",
"slug": "politics",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Politics | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 18002,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/politics"
},
"news_386": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_386",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "386",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Republicans",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Republicans Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 394,
"slug": "republicans",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/republicans"
},
"news_38": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_38",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "38",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "San Francisco",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "San Francisco Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 58,
"slug": "san-francisco",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/san-francisco"
},
"news_21540": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_21540",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "21540",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Texas",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Texas Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 21557,
"slug": "texas",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/texas"
},
"news_22598": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_22598",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "22598",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "The Bay",
"description": "\u003cimg class=\"alignnone size-medium wp-image-11638190\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/02/TheBay_1200x6301.png\" alt=\"\" />\r\n\u003cbr/>\r\n\r\nEvery good story starts local. So that’s where we start. \u003ci>The Bay\u003c/i> is storytelling for daily news. KQED host Devin Katayama talks with reporters to help us make sense of what’s happening in the Bay Area. One story. One conversation. One idea.\r\n\r\n\u003cstrong>Subscribe to The Bay:\u003c/strong>\r\n\r\n\u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-bay/id1350043452?mt=2\">\u003cimg src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/01/Listen_on_Apple_Podcasts_sRGB_US-e1515635079510.png\" />\u003c/a>",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": "Every good story starts local. So that’s where we start. The Bay is storytelling for daily news. KQED host Devin Katayama talks with reporters to help us make sense of what’s happening in the Bay Area. One story. One conversation. One idea. Subscribe to The Bay:",
"title": "The Bay Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 22615,
"slug": "the-bay",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/the-bay"
},
"news_20759": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_20759",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "20759",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "censorship",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "censorship Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 20776,
"slug": "censorship",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/censorship"
},
"news_18378": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_18378",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "18378",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "China",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "China Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 18412,
"slug": "china",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/china"
},
"news_34551": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_34551",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "34551",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Labor",
"slug": "labor",
"taxonomy": "category",
"description": "We examine worker safety, workplace regulation, employment trends and union organizing.",
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Labor | KQED News",
"description": "We examine worker safety, workplace regulation, employment trends and union organizing.",
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 34568,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/category/labor"
},
"news_35118": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_35118",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "35118",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "health care",
"slug": "health-care",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "health care | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 35135,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/health-care"
},
"news_421": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_421",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "421",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Kaiser Permanente",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Kaiser Permanente Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 430,
"slug": "kaiser-permanente",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/kaiser-permanente"
},
"news_19904": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_19904",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "19904",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "Labor",
"slug": "labor",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "Labor | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 19921,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/labor"
},
"news_24590": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_24590",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "24590",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "labor strikes",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "labor strikes Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 24607,
"slug": "labor-strikes",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/labor-strikes"
},
"news_32662": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_32662",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "32662",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "arts and culture",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "arts and culture Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 32679,
"slug": "arts-and-culture",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/arts-and-culture"
},
"news_18192": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_18192",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "18192",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "dance",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "dance Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 18226,
"slug": "dance",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/dance"
},
"news_36321": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_36321",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "36321",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "venezuela",
"slug": "venezuela",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "venezuela | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 36338,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/venezuela"
},
"news_34755": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_34755",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "34755",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"name": "artificial intelligence",
"slug": "artificial-intelligence",
"taxonomy": "tag",
"description": null,
"featImg": null,
"headData": {
"title": "artificial intelligence | KQED News",
"description": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogDescription": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"twDescription": null,
"twImgId": null
},
"ttid": 34772,
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/artificial-intelligence"
},
"news_21593": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_21593",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "21593",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "data",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "data Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 21610,
"slug": "data",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/data"
},
"news_28161": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_28161",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "28161",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "dating",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "dating Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 28178,
"slug": "dating",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/dating"
},
"news_20856": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_20856",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "20856",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Love",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Love Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 20873,
"slug": "love",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/love"
},
"news_25020": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_25020",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "25020",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "relationships",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "relationships Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 25037,
"slug": "relationships",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/relationships"
},
"news_5750": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_5750",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "5750",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Valentine's",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Valentine's Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 5774,
"slug": "valentines",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/valentines"
},
"news_2301": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_2301",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "2301",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "Valentine's Day",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "Valentine's Day Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 2316,
"slug": "valentines-day",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/valentines-day"
},
"news_140": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_140",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "140",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "PG&E",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "tag",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "PG&E Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 144,
"slug": "pge",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/tag/pge"
},
"news_33729": {
"type": "terms",
"id": "news_33729",
"meta": {
"index": "terms_1716263798",
"site": "news",
"id": "33729",
"found": true
},
"relationships": {},
"featImg": null,
"name": "San Francisco",
"description": null,
"taxonomy": "interest",
"headData": {
"twImgId": null,
"twTitle": null,
"ogTitle": null,
"ogImgId": null,
"twDescription": null,
"description": null,
"title": "San Francisco Archives | KQED News",
"ogDescription": null
},
"ttid": 33746,
"slug": "san-francisco",
"isLoading": false,
"link": "/news/interest/san-francisco"
}
},
"userPermissionsReducer": {
"wpLoggedIn": false
},
"eventsReducer": {},
"fssReducer": {},
"tvDailyScheduleReducer": {},
"tvWeeklyScheduleReducer": {},
"tvPrimetimeScheduleReducer": {},
"tvMonthlyScheduleReducer": {},
"userAccountReducer": {
"user": {
"email": null,
"emailStatus": "EMAIL_UNVALIDATED",
"loggedStatus": "LOGGED_OUT",
"loggingChecked": false,
"articles": [],
"firstName": null,
"lastName": null,
"phoneNumber": null,
"fetchingMembership": false,
"membershipError": false,
"memberships": [
{
"id": null,
"startDate": null,
"firstName": null,
"lastName": null,
"familyNumber": null,
"memberNumber": null,
"memberSince": null,
"expirationDate": null,
"pfsEligible": false,
"isSustaining": false,
"membershipLevel": "Prospect",
"membershipStatus": "Non Member",
"lastGiftDate": null,
"renewalDate": null,
"lastDonationAmount": null
}
]
},
"authModal": {
"isOpen": false,
"view": "LANDING_VIEW"
},
"error": null
},
"youthMediaReducer": {},
"checkPleaseReducer": {
"filterData": {
"region": {
"key": "Restaurant Region",
"filters": [
"Any Region"
]
},
"cuisine": {
"key": "Restaurant Cuisine",
"filters": [
"Any Cuisine"
]
}
},
"restaurantDataById": {},
"restaurantIdsSorted": [],
"error": null
},
"userAgentReducer": {
"userAgent": "Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko; compatible; ClaudeBot/1.0; +claudebot@anthropic.com)",
"isBot": true
}
}
