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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, students, faculty, staff and alumni at the California College of the Arts learned that their school will be closing after the 2026-27 school year. Replacing it will be a new campus, run by Vanderbilt University. \u003c/span>The arts community is now mourning the loss of northern California’s last nonprofit art school, which has served the region for 119 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2577727507&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13985413/california-college-of-the-arts-sfai-mills-art-school-closures\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What We Will Lose When California College of the Arts Closes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:01] \u003c/em>From KQED. I’m Erika Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:10] \u003c/em>Welcome to City Hall and welcome to San Francisco. Today is a big day for our city. We’re here to announce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:20] \u003c/em>Last week, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie held a press conference much like others he’s held since starting the job. It was his usual positive and upbeat tone, and it was a very good morning in San Francisco, he said, as he announced that Nashville-based Vanderbilt University planned to open up a San Francisco campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>We’ve talked a lot this past year about building a city where people can live, work, play, and learn. This announcement brings the learn part of that vision into sharp focus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>And as Lurie marked this as another win for San Francisco’s comeback, others were heartbroken because Vanderbilt will be taking over the campus of the California College of the Arts, which will close in 2027 after more than 100 years in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:24] \u003c/em>It’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:33] \u003c/em>Today we talk with KQED senior arts editor and CCA alum Sarah Hotchkiss about what the Bay Area will lose when the California College of the Arts closes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:53] \u003c/em>How big of a deal is the fact that CCA is now closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>This is a very big deal. This is so sad. We used to have two art schools in San Francisco. We had the San Francisco Art Institute and California College of the Arts. So CCA was always a bit more on the practical side. They had design programs. They offered architecture degrees. They had added UX design or game design. They had an MBA in design strategy. So these are things that really made CCA seem like it could continue to exist in the long run. It wasn’t just focused on its original set of programming, which was about the arts and crafts movement, which was art glass and ceramics and painting and sculpture. It had really changed over its 119-year run. And I think you also take for granted when something exists for that long that it’s gonna continue to exists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:59] \u003c/em>You mentioned 119 years in the Bay Area. I mean, I guess what is the college best known for in terms of its long history here in the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:14] \u003c/em>Craft focus is a big part of that. And just think about how many students, faculty, and staff worked there over that 119-year history. I mean, the names that came out of CCA and the people that work there are really incredible, like Viola Fry, who was a ceramics professor and is a very well-known local artist. Larry Sultan was a photography teacher at CCA. I took a class with Jeffrey Gibson, who went on to represent the United States at the Venice Biennale. So it really had an incredible cast of luminaries teaching there over the years. And then the alumni list is equally long and notable\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:00] \u003c/em>I mean, what do we know about why CCA is closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:06] \u003c/em>The short answer is money. So in 2024, the school announced that it had a $20 million deficit, and it announced layoffs at that time. The problem in short is that CCA costs more to run than it can bring in in revenue. It relies very heavily on tuition. This is a school without a huge endowment. And the operating budget is somewhere around $100 million. So with a $20 million deficit, you just cannot sustain that in the long run. And over the past year and a half, two years, they have been able to stop gap fundraise. But that doesn’t add up, as we know, to long-term sustaining operating budget. So CCA has really been looking for a way to either merge or shift their offerings in order to be able to exist. And they just could not figure out a way to do that in the long run. What impact is this having on the current students who are enrolled? So the announcement came with some explanation. If you can finish up your degree before the end of the 2026, 2027 school year, you will graduate with a CCA diploma. But if you cannot finish your degree, say you’re a freshman in the first year of a four-year program, you’re going to have to transfer elsewhere. And that might, you know, you could apply to Vanderbilt, but there is no guarantee that you’re going to get into Vanderbilt. And they also don’t offer the same programs that CCA does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:41] \u003c/em>It was really good. I love the dorms. I loved the people here. My professors are great. They helped me a lot with anything I needed, I learned a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:50] \u003c/em>I talked to Jack Wroten who’s a first year illustration student in the BFA program and he learned about the closure of his school the same way everyone else did via an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:02] \u003c/em>We had like absolutely no warning. It was this random Tuesday morning right before New Scalesters birds that we found out from an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:11] \u003c/em>He was so excited to go to CCA. He’s there with his best friend. He’s from Northern California. We both went to art school and we started looking at schools together. And CCA was like always our top choice. And he’s one semester in to his program and now has to figure out where he can transfer that also offers an illustration degree because in that first semester, he became very committed to this as a future, as a career, super excited to work with all the teachers there. And they have to now juggle this whole existential crisis of my school will not continue to exist anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>Now I just have to find a new school, and I don’t even know that all of my credits were gonna transfer or all that stuff. After like everything I did to get here after one semester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:09] \u003c/em>And what about CCA faculty, Sarah? How are they reacting to this news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:15] \u003c/em>The faculty are, you know, heartbroken, but also really focused on helping students out over the next three semesters. You know, how can we set them up to transfer, hopefully. I think I would just also add that because CCA is closing, there’s nowhere left for these people to teach and work. And we’ve had so many art programs and schools close in the Bay Area over the When SFAI closed in 2022, CCA actually was able to absorb some of that fallout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:48] \u003c/em>And that’s the San Francisco Art Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>Yes. They accepted some of the students that needed to transfer. People got teaching jobs at CCA, probably not full-time or tenure-track jobs, but at least something. We also saw Mills College merge with Northeastern. And even though that was put forward as a merger and we had a lot of high hopes for what would remain, it’s a shell of itself. And students from Northeaster can take art classes, but no one is getting a degree in the arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:22] \u003c/em>And obviously, one thing I’m thinking about is you don’t necessarily have to go to art school to be an artist, right? But why are these closures and these mergers that we’re talking about so significant, especially when talking about and thinking about the pathways for artists in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:41] \u003c/em>Yeah, absolutely, you don’t have to go to art school, and it’s also a very expensive and debt-ridden proposition, but it is an incredible shortcut to a life in the arts. I think art schools do something really amazing, which is draw people who don’t otherwise have a reason to be in the Bay Area to the Bay area. CCA is the reason that I am in San Francisco. It’s the reason I am an arts journalist, weirdly, even though I went to a graduate program in painting. It brings people here, it keeps them here because you have that network of the school that continues to support you after you finish a program. And it graduates a new class of young, eager, excited people into the arts every single year. And CCA wasn’t just a practicing art school, there was also a curatorial program at one point. There’s a whole fiction department, comics artists, like a very diverse ecosystem of what a life in the arts can be. It also provided so many jobs for people, not just people who are teaching the classes, but everyone else who’s supporting those classes. So like the person running the photo studio or the wood shop, those are probably artists who are sustaining a life in the Bay Area because they have this day job. Has Jack told you anything about what he plans to do in the next few months? Yeah, so Jack has been looking at Otis College of Art and Design, which is a school down in Los Angeles, to finish out his illustration degree. And so far, that’s the only school I’ve heard of that’s really set up any sort of messaging for CCA students. So they have a whole portal on their website that’s like, hey, come to us. Here’s what is an analog to the program that you were in. Here’s how we’re going to waive the application fee. It sounds like they’re gonna wave the limit on the number of credits that you can transfer. So that’s encouraging, but we’re gonna need more of that and we’re going to need CCA to do work on its own end to form those partnerships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:58] \u003c/em>So Sarah, Mayor Daniel Lurie has said the arts will lead San Francisco’s comeback, but how do you square that with CCA’s closure?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:07] \u003c/em>What was upsetting about Mayor Daniel Lurie’s announcement and this kind of tone deafness was this misunderstanding of how the ecosystem works and how all these things fit together. Mayor Lurrie made this announcement in his office on one of his social media videos in front of a painting by a CCA alum and current faculty member. And in the video, he doesn’t mention CCA once. He just says, go Vanderbilt, anchor down, Let’s go San Francisco. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school. To lose that, to lose that momentum and that energy, it’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. Every year, a graduating class feeds into the excitement and energy of what’s happening in this region. Young art school weirdos are the people who start up those project spaces in their garages and like, Do weird things and storefronts and keep this place reinventing itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:16] \u003c/em>Thank you for sharing your reporting with us. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:21] \u003c/em>Thanks for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, students, faculty, staff and alumni at the California College of the Arts learned that their school will be closing after the 2026-27 school year. Replacing it will be a new campus, run by Vanderbilt University. \u003c/span>The arts community is now mourning the loss of northern California’s last nonprofit art school, which has served the region for 119 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2577727507&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13985413/california-college-of-the-arts-sfai-mills-art-school-closures\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What We Will Lose When California College of the Arts Closes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:01] \u003c/em>From KQED. I’m Erika Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:10] \u003c/em>Welcome to City Hall and welcome to San Francisco. Today is a big day for our city. We’re here to announce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:20] \u003c/em>Last week, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie held a press conference much like others he’s held since starting the job. It was his usual positive and upbeat tone, and it was a very good morning in San Francisco, he said, as he announced that Nashville-based Vanderbilt University planned to open up a San Francisco campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>We’ve talked a lot this past year about building a city where people can live, work, play, and learn. This announcement brings the learn part of that vision into sharp focus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>And as Lurie marked this as another win for San Francisco’s comeback, others were heartbroken because Vanderbilt will be taking over the campus of the California College of the Arts, which will close in 2027 after more than 100 years in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:24] \u003c/em>It’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:33] \u003c/em>Today we talk with KQED senior arts editor and CCA alum Sarah Hotchkiss about what the Bay Area will lose when the California College of the Arts closes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:53] \u003c/em>How big of a deal is the fact that CCA is now closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>This is a very big deal. This is so sad. We used to have two art schools in San Francisco. We had the San Francisco Art Institute and California College of the Arts. So CCA was always a bit more on the practical side. They had design programs. They offered architecture degrees. They had added UX design or game design. They had an MBA in design strategy. So these are things that really made CCA seem like it could continue to exist in the long run. It wasn’t just focused on its original set of programming, which was about the arts and crafts movement, which was art glass and ceramics and painting and sculpture. It had really changed over its 119-year run. And I think you also take for granted when something exists for that long that it’s gonna continue to exists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:59] \u003c/em>You mentioned 119 years in the Bay Area. I mean, I guess what is the college best known for in terms of its long history here in the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:14] \u003c/em>Craft focus is a big part of that. And just think about how many students, faculty, and staff worked there over that 119-year history. I mean, the names that came out of CCA and the people that work there are really incredible, like Viola Fry, who was a ceramics professor and is a very well-known local artist. Larry Sultan was a photography teacher at CCA. I took a class with Jeffrey Gibson, who went on to represent the United States at the Venice Biennale. So it really had an incredible cast of luminaries teaching there over the years. And then the alumni list is equally long and notable\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:00] \u003c/em>I mean, what do we know about why CCA is closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:06] \u003c/em>The short answer is money. So in 2024, the school announced that it had a $20 million deficit, and it announced layoffs at that time. The problem in short is that CCA costs more to run than it can bring in in revenue. It relies very heavily on tuition. This is a school without a huge endowment. And the operating budget is somewhere around $100 million. So with a $20 million deficit, you just cannot sustain that in the long run. And over the past year and a half, two years, they have been able to stop gap fundraise. But that doesn’t add up, as we know, to long-term sustaining operating budget. So CCA has really been looking for a way to either merge or shift their offerings in order to be able to exist. And they just could not figure out a way to do that in the long run. What impact is this having on the current students who are enrolled? So the announcement came with some explanation. If you can finish up your degree before the end of the 2026, 2027 school year, you will graduate with a CCA diploma. But if you cannot finish your degree, say you’re a freshman in the first year of a four-year program, you’re going to have to transfer elsewhere. And that might, you know, you could apply to Vanderbilt, but there is no guarantee that you’re going to get into Vanderbilt. And they also don’t offer the same programs that CCA does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:41] \u003c/em>It was really good. I love the dorms. I loved the people here. My professors are great. They helped me a lot with anything I needed, I learned a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:50] \u003c/em>I talked to Jack Wroten who’s a first year illustration student in the BFA program and he learned about the closure of his school the same way everyone else did via an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:02] \u003c/em>We had like absolutely no warning. It was this random Tuesday morning right before New Scalesters birds that we found out from an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:11] \u003c/em>He was so excited to go to CCA. He’s there with his best friend. He’s from Northern California. We both went to art school and we started looking at schools together. And CCA was like always our top choice. And he’s one semester in to his program and now has to figure out where he can transfer that also offers an illustration degree because in that first semester, he became very committed to this as a future, as a career, super excited to work with all the teachers there. And they have to now juggle this whole existential crisis of my school will not continue to exist anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>Now I just have to find a new school, and I don’t even know that all of my credits were gonna transfer or all that stuff. After like everything I did to get here after one semester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:09] \u003c/em>And what about CCA faculty, Sarah? How are they reacting to this news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:15] \u003c/em>The faculty are, you know, heartbroken, but also really focused on helping students out over the next three semesters. You know, how can we set them up to transfer, hopefully. I think I would just also add that because CCA is closing, there’s nowhere left for these people to teach and work. And we’ve had so many art programs and schools close in the Bay Area over the When SFAI closed in 2022, CCA actually was able to absorb some of that fallout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:48] \u003c/em>And that’s the San Francisco Art Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>Yes. They accepted some of the students that needed to transfer. People got teaching jobs at CCA, probably not full-time or tenure-track jobs, but at least something. We also saw Mills College merge with Northeastern. And even though that was put forward as a merger and we had a lot of high hopes for what would remain, it’s a shell of itself. And students from Northeaster can take art classes, but no one is getting a degree in the arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:22] \u003c/em>And obviously, one thing I’m thinking about is you don’t necessarily have to go to art school to be an artist, right? But why are these closures and these mergers that we’re talking about so significant, especially when talking about and thinking about the pathways for artists in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:41] \u003c/em>Yeah, absolutely, you don’t have to go to art school, and it’s also a very expensive and debt-ridden proposition, but it is an incredible shortcut to a life in the arts. I think art schools do something really amazing, which is draw people who don’t otherwise have a reason to be in the Bay Area to the Bay area. CCA is the reason that I am in San Francisco. It’s the reason I am an arts journalist, weirdly, even though I went to a graduate program in painting. It brings people here, it keeps them here because you have that network of the school that continues to support you after you finish a program. And it graduates a new class of young, eager, excited people into the arts every single year. And CCA wasn’t just a practicing art school, there was also a curatorial program at one point. There’s a whole fiction department, comics artists, like a very diverse ecosystem of what a life in the arts can be. It also provided so many jobs for people, not just people who are teaching the classes, but everyone else who’s supporting those classes. So like the person running the photo studio or the wood shop, those are probably artists who are sustaining a life in the Bay Area because they have this day job. Has Jack told you anything about what he plans to do in the next few months? Yeah, so Jack has been looking at Otis College of Art and Design, which is a school down in Los Angeles, to finish out his illustration degree. And so far, that’s the only school I’ve heard of that’s really set up any sort of messaging for CCA students. So they have a whole portal on their website that’s like, hey, come to us. Here’s what is an analog to the program that you were in. Here’s how we’re going to waive the application fee. It sounds like they’re gonna wave the limit on the number of credits that you can transfer. So that’s encouraging, but we’re gonna need more of that and we’re going to need CCA to do work on its own end to form those partnerships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:58] \u003c/em>So Sarah, Mayor Daniel Lurie has said the arts will lead San Francisco’s comeback, but how do you square that with CCA’s closure?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:07] \u003c/em>What was upsetting about Mayor Daniel Lurie’s announcement and this kind of tone deafness was this misunderstanding of how the ecosystem works and how all these things fit together. Mayor Lurrie made this announcement in his office on one of his social media videos in front of a painting by a CCA alum and current faculty member. And in the video, he doesn’t mention CCA once. He just says, go Vanderbilt, anchor down, Let’s go San Francisco. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school. To lose that, to lose that momentum and that energy, it’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. Every year, a graduating class feeds into the excitement and energy of what’s happening in this region. Young art school weirdos are the people who start up those project spaces in their garages and like, Do weird things and storefronts and keep this place reinventing itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:16] \u003c/em>Thank you for sharing your reporting with us. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:21] \u003c/em>Thanks for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recent killing of Renee Good in Minneapolis by a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement set off a wave of protests across the country. It’s also brought attention to the federal government’s efforts to stop people from recording federal agents in public. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re sharing an episode from KQED’s \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> podcast, where host Morgan Sung sits down with criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella to find out whether or not you have the right to record ICE.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3917605205&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Doctor: Can I go check a pulse?\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page]\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer:This is your warning!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: For what?\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: Go to church.\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: Learn what?\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page]\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast]\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The recent killing of Renee Good in Minneapolis by a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement set off a wave of protests across the country. It’s also brought attention to the federal government’s efforts to stop people from recording federal agents in public. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, we’re sharing an episode from KQED’s \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/closealltabs\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Close All Tabs\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> podcast, where host Morgan Sung sits down with criminal justice reporter C.J. Ciaramella to find out whether or not you have the right to record ICE.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3917605205&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Morgan Sung, Host: \u003c/b>Just a note, this episode contains references to violence and strong language. Listen with care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: If I continue to see you following me around, I’m gonna pull you over and arrest you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: For what? What law am I breaking?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: You’re impeding one of the investigations, okay?\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>That was an interaction between a Border Patrol officer and a local observer in Key Largo, Florida, posted on Instagram on Monday morning. The officer threatened to arrest the observer for following and filming him, but didn’t say what law they were breaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Audio from 50501_Key_Largo Instagram Account]\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: How am I impeding you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: I’m not going to argue with you.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: Are you going to shoot me?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Border Patrol Officer: Why would I shoot you?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Local Observer: Because one of your guys, one of you federal people just shot an innocent woman and murdered her in Minneapolis.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Last week, on January 7th, federal immigration and customs enforcement officers shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She was 37. The Trump administration has launched an extensive immigration crackdown in Minneapolis singling out the city’s large Somali community. Last week they sent 2,000 federal agents in what ICE Acting Director Todd Lyons described as the largest immigration operation ever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella, Guest: \u003c/b>In response, a lot of citizens have been protesting and following and monitoring ICE and CBP officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>This is C.J. Ciaramella, a reporter for Reason magazine who covers criminal justice and civil liberties. He’s been reporting on the Trump administration’s crackdown on those who record or photograph ICE operations. Last Wednesday, Renee Good and her wife had just dropped their six-year-old son off at school when they came across a group of ICE agents. Bystander video shows that Renee’s car was stopped perpendicularly on the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>And an ICE, uh, a pickup of federal immigration officers stopped in front of her and went up and were shouting at her to…there were some contradictory orders to both leave and get out of her car and started tugging on her car. She started backing up first and then as she was doing that, one of the immigration officers stepped in front her car and she started moving forward and pulling out to leave with the officer in front of her. And as he was stepping around her car, as it was moving towards him, he pulled out his gun and fired three shots and killed her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>There are several bystander videos that captured different angles of Renee’s last moments and the gruesome aftermath. One shows an officer denying medical assistance for Renee after a bystander identified himself as a doctor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Audio from a video recorded by eyewitness Emily Heller]\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Doctor: Can I go check a pulse?\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>ICE Officer: No! Back up! Now!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Doctor: I’m a physician!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Emily Heller: Hey, listen here! You just killed my f***ing neighbor!\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Videos of the incidents immediately spread online, sparking nationwide outrage. Over the weekend, hundreds of protests gathered across the country, demanding accountability and an end to mass deportations. The Trump administration has tried to paint Renee as an agitator who was stalking and impeding upon ICE operations. On Truth Social, the president said that Renee, “Violently, willfully, and viciously ran over the ICE officer, who shot her in self-defense.” But as visual forensic analysis by the New York Times, the Washington Post, and Bellingcat shows, the officer was able to step away from the car and while still standing, fired at least 2 of the 3 shots through the window as the car turned away from him. As ICE operations continue across the country, the Trump administration has escalated retaliating against anyone who follows or records federal officers. This includes journalists, and any civilian just observing ICE. In the last year, ICE and Border Patrol officers have threatened, arrested, and detained those who document their activities or report on their whereabouts. And now, federal agents have appeared to reference the shooting of Renee Good in confrontations with observers, like in this video, which was posted on the r/minneapolis subreddit this week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Clip 1 from r/minnesota Reddit page]\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer:This is your warning!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: For what?\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer: Stop f***ing following us! You are impeding operations! This is the United States Federal Government!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: I live over here, I gotta get to my house!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer:This is- this is your warning! Go home!\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: Go to church.\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer: Did you not learn from what just happened? Go home!\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Driver: Learn what?\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Or in this video, which was posted on the r/minnesota subreddit days after Renee was killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Clip 2 from r/minnesota Reddit page]\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003ci>Officer: Have y’all not learned from the past couple of days? Have you not learned?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Recorder: Learned what? What’s our lesson here? What do you want us to learn?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Officer: Following federal agents.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>Recorder: Give me my phone back!\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>In light of all this, many people are asking, are you allowed to record federal agents? And what are your rights when it comes to recording ICE, especially as the Trump administration increasingly tries to target those who do? This is Close All Tabs. I’m Morgan Sung, tech journalist and your chronically online friend, here to open as many browser tabs as it takes to help you understand how the digital world affects our real lives. Let’s get into it. Let’s start with a new tab. Are you allowed to record ice? We’re back with C.J. Ciaramella, who reports on criminal justice and civil liberties for Reason Magazine. He’s going to put this into context for us. ICE activities have been escalating all throughout the past year, but what led up to this moment? And does it feel like a tipping point to you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>It really does. This has been sort of the, I don’t want to say logical conclusion because that doesn’t put it in the right light, but over this past summer, we’ve seen escalating rhetoric from the Trump administration about people filming and recording and monitoring ICE and also trying to warn other people about ICE activities. They described this as illegal activity, saying that it’s obstruction of justice or impeding federal immigration officers and they vowed to like, prosecute people who do this. And they also made it clear to these line officers working at CBP and ICE, yeah that they consider this illegal activity. That they consider following around and monitoring these agents to be very confrontational, illegal. There are dozens of videos of ICE and CBP officers threatening to arrest people and pulling them out of the car solely for following and recording them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>One of the main reasons that this incident specifically has exploded is because there are multiple video recordings taken by bystanders that have been shared online, gone viral, you know, just been spread among news outlets. You’ve been reporting on how the Trump administration is trying to make the case that recording ICE officers in public is illegal, like you said. But just to be clear, does the public have the right to record law enforcement and specifically ICE?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>Well, I gotta be a little bit nuanced about this because the Supreme Court actually hasn’t put out a ruling saying there’s an unambiguous First Amendment right to film the police. But all of the seven US Federal Circuit Courts that have considered the issue have pretty much said there is a First Amendment right to record the police and observe the police, and they’ve all decided that pretty unambiguously. And this ranges from, you know, the ninth circuit, which is traditionally a pretty liberal leaning court to the fifth circuit, which has a reputation as a more conservative circuit court, you know? The fifth circuit looked at it and said, you know, based on the first amendment tradition, the Supreme court presidents, this seems pretty unambiguous to us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Uh, so it’s not a completely like black and white issue, but it’s also not a, like, a thorny or divisive first amendment question. Every court that’s looked at, it has said, yeah. Based on our long First Amendment traditions. And in America, you have a right to record the police. Now, Minnesota is in one of the circuits that hasn’t yet ruled on this. So it’s not like black letter law in Minnesota.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Right. What protections does the public have, if any, when it comes to recording the police or recording law enforcement?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>You know, you do have strong First Amendment protections, especially if you’re engaged in news gathering activity, if you’re monitoring a protest or monitoring police activity. And you don’t have to be an official journalist to do this because there’s no, you know, definition of journalists in the First Amendment. There are very strong protections for news gathering.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since about 2020, some states have passed what are called buffer laws that restrict people from recording the police within about 25 feet when they’re asked to get out of the way. And those have faced a lot of scrutiny from courts. Arizona and Indiana both had buffer laws that were overturned for being unconstitutionally vague. There would be too much of a chilling effect for preventing the public from recording police.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is a really fundamental principle and privacy First Amendment and public record law in the United States, is that government officials doing official government work in public don’t have a reasonable expectation of privacy. You know, this is another example of a really sort of watershed moment in policing and law enforcement in America that’s based on recorded video evidence. The same as in Minneapolis with George Floyd in 2020, Rodney King, you know, is these have all had huge impacts on our nation’s history and they’re all based on people recording police activity and documenting it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The founders really believed that we should be able to hold our government accountable. And that includes having access to popular information and knowing what our government is doing. And that’s why recording the police and creating this sort of evidence trail is such a core protected first movement activity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>In June last year, dozens of journalists were injured by law enforcement while covering the Los Angeles protests against mass deportation. Many journalists and protesters were tear gassed or shot at with pepper rounds and rubber bullets, or their phones and cameras were smashed while recording. One reporter was shot by a rubber bullet live on air.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Months later, a federal district court issued an injunction blocking the Department of Homeland Security, which includes ICE and Border Patrol from brutalizing journalists, protesters, and legal observers. That means that federal agents aren’t allowed to threaten or assault the press or protesters unless they have probable cause to believe they’ve committed a crime. They also can’t use chemical, projectile, and auditory weapons against protesters, journalists, or legal observers who don’t pose imminent harm to law enforcement. Basically, they can’t tear gas or shoot people just for exercising their First Amendment rights. Enforcement is another story, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>There were injunctions against that, if I’m remembering correctly. There were a couple of injunctions trying to restrict the sort of tactics that federal law enforcement was using. We also saw the same thing in Chicago. There was injunctions trying to restrict ICE from retaliating against protesters and reporters who were engaged in really clear-cut First Amendment activity. And the judges kind of struggled to enforce that. In Chicago we saw the plaintiffs kept coming back with new motions saying like, here’s more evidence that your injunction is not being followed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s been really hard to enforce because the Trump administration has, if not an officially stated, a de facto policy that anyone who is opposing them or filming them is subject to intimidation and retaliation. There was a Cato report that came out in December that outlined dozens of instances of people who are being intimidated and threatened by federal agents for engaging in really clearly protected First Amendment activity such as just following from a distance or recording police. In fact, I wrote a story about an Oregon woman who was followed by ICE agents because she was filming them in a parking lot and they followed her after she left and her lawyer shared video with me. She stopped at an intersection and you can see the the agents come up to her window and the first thing they say is ‘Why are you filming us?’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And I want to say also as well that people who monitor police, reporters, and activists have faced First Amendment retaliation for decades. But what’s really startling and unprecedented here is that we’re hearing this coming from the top of the federal government. That is something that’s quite new, I would say. Secretary Noem was on record in July saying that, you know, violence is anything that threatens them and their safety and she included videotaping federal immigration officers. They’re equating videotaping officers with violence and domestic terrorism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Here’s what DHS Secretary Kristi Noem said during a press conference last summer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem during July 12, 2025 Press Conference inTampa, Florida].\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>…And I will tell you that violence is anything that threatens them and their safety. So it is doxing them. It’s videotaping them where they’re at when they’re out on operations, encouraging other people to come and to throw things, rocks, bottles…\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Notice the use of the word doxing here. That’s the act of posting private information about someone to target and harass them, usually like their home address or personal phone number. The Trump administration has equated identifying and publicly naming ICE agents to dox-ing. California recently banned federal officers from wearing masks on duty, with exceptions for medical masks like N95s, wildfire protection, and agents undercover. The ban was supposed to go into effect this month. Here’s state Senator Scott Wiener talking about the ban on Instagram.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Senator Scott Wiener speaking on Instagram ]\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>I introduced and passed this law to stop ICE and any other law enforcement from covering their faces and effectively operating as secret police. It is horrifying what federal agents are doing, tearing communities apart, operating in the shadows, not identifying themselves, covering their faces so you don’t even know who you’re dealing with.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>But the Trump administration has sued to block the bill, citing threats to federal officers like taunting, online doxing, and stalking. They argue that states like California have no authority to interfere with federal immigration operations, which means that state and local officials can’t enforce the mask ban. So are you allowed to record ICE? Yes, but like we’ve seen with California’s mask ban, the White House has been very opposed to any attempt at identifying federal officers. In fact, they’ve gone as far as trying to prosecute those who record and identify ICE agents. So what does this targeting and retaliation from the administration look like? And how is it holding up in courts? That’s after this break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>We’re back. Time to open a new tab: The legal battle over recording law enforcement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Trump administration is going as far as trying to prosecute people for following and recording ICE. And they’re using this federal statute to threaten those who get in their way. It’s called 18 USC 111. C.J. is going to tell us about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>Yeah, well, it’s both a felony and a misdemeanor depending on the severity or why they want to charge it. But it’s for assaulting, impeding, or obstructing a federal law enforcement agent and it’s pretty much what it sounds like. It’s more or less a federal analog of the obstruction laws that you see at your local level where if you, you know, if a police officer is trying to arrest someone and you get in their way and try and pull the person away or physically obstruct the officer, you can get charged with obstruction. But this also, I would mention, obstruction is a classic, what’s known as a contempt of cop charge. It’s something that’s thrown at people when they annoy cops, and the police are looking for something that they can punish them with. But it’s also used frequently for people who are being a real nuisance to police, and that’s what it’s intended for. It’s for assaulting and physically obstructing officers. And it accounts for all federal law enforcement, including immigration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Right. How is the administration trying to use this statute specifically to target those who film ICE? Have they had any success?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>This is, you know, this sort of top-down order is to treat people who are opposing them through, you know, First Amendment or activities of recording or warning other people as violating this statute to sort of broaden this to include non-violent or non-physical means of obstruction. And what’s been really interesting about that is that these prosecutions have faired really poorly compared to federal prosecutors’ usual track record.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Usually when a U.S. Attorney’s office brings a case to a grand jury, they almost always get it. It is extremely rare for federal prosecutors to bring a case to a jury and have them reject it. And most cases that they do bring end in guilty pleas and plea agreements. But what we’ve seen is grand juries refusing cases in Chicago and elsewhere, refusing to indict. And those cases then getting thrown out when body cam footage and other evidence comes to light showing that these actions that people are being charged for aren’t meeting the elements of this crime which requires physically obstructing or assaulting agents and you know by that definition following an officer isn’t obstructing them you know recording them isn’t physically obstructed them even alerting other people to the presence of ICE is not obstructing them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The law on that is a little more mixed, but there have been courts that have upheld the right to, for example, warn motorists of speed traps ahead or to flash your lights to warn people of cops in the distance. They consider that First Amendment speech as well. So what we’ve seen is a lot of these prosecutions failing at an unprecedented rate. There have been quite a few cases where they’ve charged people with a felony charge. And then when a grand jury refuses to indict them, they are refiled as a misdemeanor, which doesn’t actually require a grand-jury indictment. And some of those cases have pled out guilty after the misdemeanor charge was refiled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there’s been other cases where the federal prosecutors haven’t even been able to secure a misdemeanor conviction. The most famous case was the sandwich guy in DC, Sean Dunn, who threw a Subway sandwich at a CBP officer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[Clip from WUSA 9 newscast]\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/i>\u003ci>The Customs and Border Patrol agent hit with the sandwich, characterized it as a profanity laced tirade, and he told the jury Dunn threw the sandwich so hard, it exploded against his bulletproof vest, “I could smell the onions and mustard.”\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>The prosecutors were trying to convince the jury that this officer had a real fear for his safety when he got pelted with a sandwich, and the jury did not agree.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>In an investigation published late last year, the Associated Press found that, since May, of the 100 people charged with felony assaults on federal agents, 55 saw their charges reduced to misdemeanors or just outright dismissed. Only 23 pleaded guilty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>They’ve found that dozens of the cases have kind of fallen apart. That is a really high failure rate for federal prosecutors who nearly, when it comes to these sort of cases, are almost always batting a hundred. So it’s been a, it’s been very strange, I think, for the U.S. Prosecutor’s offices as well, who have had to face judges who are being very, well judges have to be very circumspect in their language, but are questioning these cases pretty harshly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Even talking about this top-down almost order, right? JD Vance has made statements about how ICE agents have total immunity. How does that play into this? Like, what can you tell us about how much of the talk of ICE’s immunity can actually hold up against legal challenges?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>I asked DHS public affairs office in December if they considered following and recording officers to be obstruction of justice. You know, I wanted to get a straight answer from them. And the office of public affairs sent me a statement attributed to an unnamed spokesperson who said, that sure sounds like obstruction of justice, which, you know, isn’t a super clear answer, but it gives you the mindset. And like I said, that is coming and that is trickling down from the very top of DHS to the line officers who are being told that they have immunity and that anyone who is sort of bothering them is probably violating the statute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>We’ve established that recording law enforcement is a right upheld by federal courts. That’s not stopping ICE agents from continuing to target those who do record them. You had mentioned the woman in Oregon that you covered. What happened there when she was stopped?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>She was detained for, I believe, five or six hours. She was taken to a detention facility and detained and eventually released without charges. Last time I checked, they still not filed any charges against her. So, you know, this was, um, can almost be seen as a purely retaliatory or punishment sort of, and that’s really, I think, what this comes down to is a textbook definition of a chilling effect on free speech. When you have these statements from top officials, when you have the vice president basically saying that these agents will have immunity for what they’re doing, it makes everyone who wants to participate and exercise their First Amendment right second guess whether it’s worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You know, I was out driving around in my hometown in December. Um, following ICE and CBP and taking pictures, you know, um, from a distance, but, uh, just seeing what they were doing because I’m a reporter and I had a unambiguous, crystal clear, First Amendment right to do that. But it was still in the back of my head, if these guys decided I was bothering them, they could bust out my car windows. They could detain me. They could pull their guns on me, which is all things that have happened to people for doing the same thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When I was a reporter at 25, that wasn’t as much of a worry, but I have a kid at home, ah, you know, you start doing…the calculus gets a lot harder. And that’s exactly what this sort of policy and what this activity does is make people self-censor under the threat of government retaliation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>There was this woman who was detained for seven in Oregon. She’s just one of many dozens at this point who have been targeted by ICE. There are all the journalists in Los Angeles who were shot up by rubber bullets and injured. Is there any recourse for victims of retaliation like this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>Yeah, so it is very, very hard to hold federal law enforcement agents accountable for their actions. They do have sovereign immunity from some criminal prosecutions. In federal court, you have to file a lawsuit against the U.S. Government. You actually can’t sue them as individuals. So you basically have to go to court against the US government. And it is a very, very long and hard road to follow to successfully sue the U.S. Government for civil rights deprivations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The best options, um, are probably more sweeping class action injunctions and sort of broader rulings against the general activity, just because it’s so hard to hold individual officers accountable even on a class action or individual level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>Considering everything we just talked about, what should people know before they consider recording ICE or other law enforcement activities?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>C.J. Ciaramella: \u003c/b>What I say you should know is that you do have the First Amendment right to do this. You have the right to record and monitor, and you even have the right to verbally oppose the police. One of the Supreme Court decisions that a lot of circuit courts have looked back on when they’re deciding these sort of questions was a 1987 Supreme Court ruling in a case called Houston v Hill, where they struck down an ordinance that made it unlawful to oppose or interrupt a police officer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Supreme Court Justice William Brennan, Jr. wrote, “The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principle characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.” And courts they’ll look back to that when they’re deciding things like whether you should be able to yell an obscenity at a police officer or record them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And like I said, what the administration is trying to do is create a chilling effect here. And what people should know is that they are banking on fear and banking on you not wanting to exercise your First Amendment rights. And what we’re seeing all around the country with these protests and with people coming out and confronting ICE agents and CBP agents more is that it’s not working.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Morgan Sung: \u003c/b>So remember, recording ICE, or any law enforcement, is your constitutional right, but it’s not without risks. We’ll link some resources for staying safe in the show notes. And check out our two-part series, The Surveillance Machine, for a deeper dive on the history of protest surveillance and how it’s used today. Okay, let’s close all these tabs.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "As Federal Surveillance Grows, Santa Cruz Axes Powerful License Plate Readers",
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"headTitle": "As Federal Surveillance Grows, Santa Cruz Axes Powerful License Plate Readers | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police departments say automated license plate readers — or ALPRs — made by an Atlanta-based company called Flock Safety area powerful tool for solving crime. But residents and privacy advocates are increasingly concerned about the impacts on our privacy, as the Trump administration continues its federal immigration crackdown. In Santa Cruz, the city council voted 6-1 to end its contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data was accessed by out-of-state agencies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/01/15/san-jose-police-federal-searches-license-plate-data-violation-state-law/?campaign=sjmnbreakingnews&utm_email=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1&active=no&lctg=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose latest city to face questions whether federal authorities are accessing police license plate camera data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz-Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Santa Cruz just became the first city in California to end its contract with Flock Safety, the company behind powerful license plate readers that police say help them solve crimes. But more and more people are raising alarm bells about the cost to our privacy after reports that data collected from these cameras had been shared with the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] We’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble and asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] Concerns around federal law enforcement have reached a fever pitch after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis last week. And in California sanctuary cities, many worry the powerful data gathered by these surveillance tools could end up in the wrong hands. Today, how Bay Area cities are weighing the cost and benefits of automated license plate readers. Rachael, I think I actually want to start with just having you kind of telling me about the time that you were living in SoCal and you got a ticket in the mail, a speeding ticket?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] It wasn’t a speeding ticket. I just want to correct the record there.It was a red light camera ticket because I failed to stop completely before making a right turn. This was technically a moving violation, so I’m not trying to relitigate here, Ericka, but I do want to talk about what came with the ticket in the mail. And this is 25 years ago. This computer-generated printout that included all the details of my car. License plate, make and model, I guess a shot of it moving through the intersection, and then a close-up of my face. So it was pretty incontrovertible. Who was at fault and what happened. Today, license plate readers can track a car, track the driver across cities and the country. Which makes the surveillance an awesome tool for crime fighting, but also for oppression, especially now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yeah, you’re basically describing 25 years ago what was sort of a basic function of automated license plate cameras, but now they’re just so much more sophisticated as you’ve just been describing. And in the Bay Area and across the US, probably the biggest company that’s been contracting these license plate camera is this company called Flock Safety out of Atlanta, right? Tell me a little bit more about Flock and why so many cities have contracts with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:03:26] So like you say, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta. It’s grown incredibly fast by selling what I would describe as a plug-and-play surveillance network. So we call them automated license plate readers, right, or ALPRs. But they capture so much more than just the license plate. Flock and its competitors in the industry use high-resolution, networked cameras powered by AI. So they log time and location of vehicles, make, model, color, roof racks, decals, dents. So you can get really granular in a way that you couldn’t with those old red light cameras. Law enforcement agencies, as you might expect, but also homeowners associations, business districts, they like Flock, too, because the cameras come with analytical tools that are really helpful, police departments say, to help solve crimes, especially car thefts and burglaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] And I mean, there are a bunch of California cities with these automated license plate readers from Flock, right? Who are some of Flock’s biggest customers here in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] So I mentioned that it’s not just law enforcement, but also transit agencies, campus police, special districts, business districts, like the Chinatown business district in Oakland. More than 200 municipalities, so San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Berkeley, as well. And until recently, Santa Cruz was on that list, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] Right, and I want to talk about Santa Cruz for a little bit, because they just made some news this week for becoming what might be the first California city to actually end its contract with Flock. What happened in Santa Cruz?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] So Santa Cruz learned back in November that Flock had enabled a national search feature that could allow out-of-state agencies to access California data. What really sort of pushed their push to quit Flock over the edge was a recently formed grassroots group called Get the Flock Out. They laid out a case that included the finding that between June and October of 2025, state agencies accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times on behalf of federal law enforcement. So that includes ICE. That raised alarm bells. So community members organized to make the case, and city leaders said they weren’t comfortable continuing until they could guarantee that the local data wasn’t being exposed beyond what residents were told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:41] The council has, over the years, gotten more and more concerned about this, especially the last 12, 13 months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] Santa Cruz Mayor Fred Keeley will tell you that he has been nervous about mass surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] I’m one of those sort of civil libertarians, you know, yes, I do have something to worry about even if I’m not behaving badly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:06] He basically said, even if the intent is local crime-fighting, the risk that this data could be used against Santa Cruz County residents is just too high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:07:18] In our country, I think we always have to wrestle with the constitutional protections which we all have and efforts to chip away at those protections citizens have from their government. For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we to get from the flawed product.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:49] They voted 6-1 in favor of terminating the contract.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:57] Santa Cruz isn’t the only place where license plate reader data has been leaked. In San Francisco, reporting from 404 Media and the San Francisco Standard showed that SFPD employees had searched local data for federal law enforcement investigations and also illegally shared city data with out-of-state cops. Now, as the Trump administration continues its immigration crackdown. Privacy advocates are even more worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:32] There are a growing number of cities in the Bay Area and across California that are hitting the pause button, saying, hey, let’s just reevaluate. There’s even one city, I believe it’s Eureka in Northern California, which has said, hey, we’re not going to enter into this contract because of everything we’re hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] How does Flock respond to these concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Flock says cities and counties and whoever. The client, the customer, controls who gets access, how long the data is stored, and the company does not share the data with the federal government or anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] Every single city, every county, every individual agency gets to choose who they share with. And if they want to reduce that kind of risk, they can choose not to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:25] Trevor Chandler, Director of Public Affairs for Flock, explained to me that Flock’s technology allows the customer to set the controls, how long the data is held, what other law enforcement agencies can run searches on Santa Cruz’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] We are the most transparent tool that law enforcement uses, period. I challenge anyone to name a more transparent tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:48] If Flock receives, say, a warrant from a federal agency, it directs those demands to the municipality involved. They argue the problem isn’t the technology, it’s how individual customers are governing the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:10:04] And the reason that we’re having these, you know, important conversations about data sharing and privacy and public safety is because of that transparency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:14] Why are people still so worried about this data if cities who have these contracts have complete control over what happens to the data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:23] If the door is held open to a bunch of agencies in California, you can see how easy it becomes for any individual in any of those agencies to search for and or share data with anybody, including somebody out of state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] And people are finally recognizing that there’s real world harm here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:44] Privacy advocate Brian Hofer of Secure Justice is suing two cities, Oakland and San Francisco, not Flock, arguing the problem isn’t just Flock’s technology, but the inability or the unwillingness of city officials and attorneys to closely monitor usage to ensure compliance with California’s privacy and sanctuary laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] It’s been extra frustrating in California where we hold ourselves out as a sanctuary state. And yet when it comes to data privacy, we have these practices that are putting people in harm’s way, clearly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:11:26] Any network is only as strong as its weakest link. If one agency misconfigures access or shares too broadly, that data can end up far beyond California. Separately, once data exists, it can be subpoenaed. Local laws don’t stop federal warrants. That’s the way our legal system works. But also we’re living in a world now where many federal law enforcement agencies aren’t even bothering with warrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:59] We’re in a very different political moment than we’ve ever been before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:07] And there are still some several Bay Area cities that still have active contracts with Flock, right? Oakland just expanded its use of these cameras. What do you think this conversation around these automated license plate readers, what do you it says about this moment that we seem to find ourselves in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:12:31] It’s a wonderful window into the tension between safety and trust. Cities are under pressure to respond to crime. And hey, I’m a Bay Area resident. I want to know if law enforcement is going to follow up if there is an incident. And if technology helps, I feel the appeal of it. But we’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble. And asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves. Santa Cruz stepping away, and also Oakland doubling down. I think both examples demonstrate in a really neat package of headlines how many Californians are really deeply divided right now over this question. How much monitoring is too much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] Rachael, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:13:35] Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Police departments say automated license plate readers — or ALPRs — made by an Atlanta-based company called Flock Safety area powerful tool for solving crime. But residents and privacy advocates are increasingly concerned about the impacts on our privacy, as the Trump administration continues its federal immigration crackdown. In Santa Cruz, the city council voted 6-1 to end its contract with Flock, citing reports that the city’s data was accessed by out-of-state agencies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12069705/santa-cruz-the-first-in-california-to-terminate-its-contract-with-flock-safety\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Santa Cruz the First in California to Terminate Its Contract With Flock Safety\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.mercurynews.com/2026/01/15/san-jose-police-federal-searches-license-plate-data-violation-state-law/?campaign=sjmnbreakingnews&utm_email=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1&active=no&lctg=A4A5B403457285D525DA14E7D1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">San Jose latest city to face questions whether federal authorities are accessing police license plate camera data\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC5003726529\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz-Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. Santa Cruz just became the first city in California to end its contract with Flock Safety, the company behind powerful license plate readers that police say help them solve crimes. But more and more people are raising alarm bells about the cost to our privacy after reports that data collected from these cameras had been shared with the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] We’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble and asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:50] Concerns around federal law enforcement have reached a fever pitch after an ICE agent shot and killed Renee Good in Minneapolis last week. And in California sanctuary cities, many worry the powerful data gathered by these surveillance tools could end up in the wrong hands. Today, how Bay Area cities are weighing the cost and benefits of automated license plate readers. Rachael, I think I actually want to start with just having you kind of telling me about the time that you were living in SoCal and you got a ticket in the mail, a speeding ticket?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:01:41] It wasn’t a speeding ticket. I just want to correct the record there.It was a red light camera ticket because I failed to stop completely before making a right turn. This was technically a moving violation, so I’m not trying to relitigate here, Ericka, but I do want to talk about what came with the ticket in the mail. And this is 25 years ago. This computer-generated printout that included all the details of my car. License plate, make and model, I guess a shot of it moving through the intersection, and then a close-up of my face. So it was pretty incontrovertible. Who was at fault and what happened. Today, license plate readers can track a car, track the driver across cities and the country. Which makes the surveillance an awesome tool for crime fighting, but also for oppression, especially now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:53] Yeah, you’re basically describing 25 years ago what was sort of a basic function of automated license plate cameras, but now they’re just so much more sophisticated as you’ve just been describing. And in the Bay Area and across the US, probably the biggest company that’s been contracting these license plate camera is this company called Flock Safety out of Atlanta, right? Tell me a little bit more about Flock and why so many cities have contracts with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:03:26] So like you say, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta. It’s grown incredibly fast by selling what I would describe as a plug-and-play surveillance network. So we call them automated license plate readers, right, or ALPRs. But they capture so much more than just the license plate. Flock and its competitors in the industry use high-resolution, networked cameras powered by AI. So they log time and location of vehicles, make, model, color, roof racks, decals, dents. So you can get really granular in a way that you couldn’t with those old red light cameras. Law enforcement agencies, as you might expect, but also homeowners associations, business districts, they like Flock, too, because the cameras come with analytical tools that are really helpful, police departments say, to help solve crimes, especially car thefts and burglaries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:33] And I mean, there are a bunch of California cities with these automated license plate readers from Flock, right? Who are some of Flock’s biggest customers here in California?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] So I mentioned that it’s not just law enforcement, but also transit agencies, campus police, special districts, business districts, like the Chinatown business district in Oakland. More than 200 municipalities, so San Francisco, Oakland, San Jose, Berkeley, as well. And until recently, Santa Cruz was on that list, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] Right, and I want to talk about Santa Cruz for a little bit, because they just made some news this week for becoming what might be the first California city to actually end its contract with Flock. What happened in Santa Cruz?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] So Santa Cruz learned back in November that Flock had enabled a national search feature that could allow out-of-state agencies to access California data. What really sort of pushed their push to quit Flock over the edge was a recently formed grassroots group called Get the Flock Out. They laid out a case that included the finding that between June and October of 2025, state agencies accessed Santa Cruz camera data roughly 4,000 times on behalf of federal law enforcement. So that includes ICE. That raised alarm bells. So community members organized to make the case, and city leaders said they weren’t comfortable continuing until they could guarantee that the local data wasn’t being exposed beyond what residents were told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:41] The council has, over the years, gotten more and more concerned about this, especially the last 12, 13 months.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] Santa Cruz Mayor Fred Keeley will tell you that he has been nervous about mass surveillance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] I’m one of those sort of civil libertarians, you know, yes, I do have something to worry about even if I’m not behaving badly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:06] He basically said, even if the intent is local crime-fighting, the risk that this data could be used against Santa Cruz County residents is just too high.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mayor Fred Keeley \u003c/strong>[00:07:18] In our country, I think we always have to wrestle with the constitutional protections which we all have and efforts to chip away at those protections citizens have from their government. For us, the threat to our civil liberties was greater than any benefit we to get from the flawed product.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:07:49] They voted 6-1 in favor of terminating the contract.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:57] Santa Cruz isn’t the only place where license plate reader data has been leaked. In San Francisco, reporting from 404 Media and the San Francisco Standard showed that SFPD employees had searched local data for federal law enforcement investigations and also illegally shared city data with out-of-state cops. Now, as the Trump administration continues its immigration crackdown. Privacy advocates are even more worried.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:32] There are a growing number of cities in the Bay Area and across California that are hitting the pause button, saying, hey, let’s just reevaluate. There’s even one city, I believe it’s Eureka in Northern California, which has said, hey, we’re not going to enter into this contract because of everything we’re hearing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:53] How does Flock respond to these concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:08:56] Flock says cities and counties and whoever. The client, the customer, controls who gets access, how long the data is stored, and the company does not share the data with the federal government or anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:15] Every single city, every county, every individual agency gets to choose who they share with. And if they want to reduce that kind of risk, they can choose not to share.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:25] Trevor Chandler, Director of Public Affairs for Flock, explained to me that Flock’s technology allows the customer to set the controls, how long the data is held, what other law enforcement agencies can run searches on Santa Cruz’s data.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:09:41] We are the most transparent tool that law enforcement uses, period. I challenge anyone to name a more transparent tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:09:48] If Flock receives, say, a warrant from a federal agency, it directs those demands to the municipality involved. They argue the problem isn’t the technology, it’s how individual customers are governing the technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Trevor Chandler \u003c/strong>[00:10:04] And the reason that we’re having these, you know, important conversations about data sharing and privacy and public safety is because of that transparency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:14] Why are people still so worried about this data if cities who have these contracts have complete control over what happens to the data?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:23] If the door is held open to a bunch of agencies in California, you can see how easy it becomes for any individual in any of those agencies to search for and or share data with anybody, including somebody out of state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] And people are finally recognizing that there’s real world harm here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:10:44] Privacy advocate Brian Hofer of Secure Justice is suing two cities, Oakland and San Francisco, not Flock, arguing the problem isn’t just Flock’s technology, but the inability or the unwillingness of city officials and attorneys to closely monitor usage to ensure compliance with California’s privacy and sanctuary laws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:11] It’s been extra frustrating in California where we hold ourselves out as a sanctuary state. And yet when it comes to data privacy, we have these practices that are putting people in harm’s way, clearly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:11:26] Any network is only as strong as its weakest link. If one agency misconfigures access or shares too broadly, that data can end up far beyond California. Separately, once data exists, it can be subpoenaed. Local laws don’t stop federal warrants. That’s the way our legal system works. But also we’re living in a world now where many federal law enforcement agencies aren’t even bothering with warrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Brian Hofer \u003c/strong>[00:11:59] We’re in a very different political moment than we’ve ever been before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:12:07] And there are still some several Bay Area cities that still have active contracts with Flock, right? Oakland just expanded its use of these cameras. What do you think this conversation around these automated license plate readers, what do you it says about this moment that we seem to find ourselves in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow \u003c/strong>[00:12:31] It’s a wonderful window into the tension between safety and trust. Cities are under pressure to respond to crime. And hey, I’m a Bay Area resident. I want to know if law enforcement is going to follow up if there is an incident. And if technology helps, I feel the appeal of it. But we’re also all watching national democratic norms crumble. And asking some really hard questions about this surveillance system that we’ve set up to protect ourselves. Santa Cruz stepping away, and also Oakland doubling down. I think both examples demonstrate in a really neat package of headlines how many Californians are really deeply divided right now over this question. How much monitoring is too much?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:33] Rachael, thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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