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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The health care industry has often been slow to adopt new technology — but not when it comes to AI. And as Kaiser Permanente’s mental health clinicians in Northern California negotiate their latest contract with the company, they’re looking for reassurance that AI isn’t coming for their jobs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Links:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1999553/will-ai-replace-your-therapist-kaiser-wont-say-no\">Will AI Replace Your Therapist? Kaiser Won’t Say No\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3808554854\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted. So I went to the doctor’s the other day, and as expected, the nurse asked some pretty basic questions. How tall am I? Do I exercise? Any history of cancer in the family? Then, when the doctor walked in, she asked a pretty surprising question. Would it be okay if they used some sort of automated transcriber to take notes on my visit? An automated transcriber, as in AI, I asked. Turns out AI is everywhere, including in the doctor’s office. Some in the healthcare industry say AI is making their lives easier. But others, like the mental healthcare workers at Kaiser are also worried that it could replace them entirely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:01:05] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full-blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to provide, you know, chat-based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:20] Today, will AI replace your therapist? And why the debate at Kaiser is worth watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:38] Health care is an industry that is usually pretty slow to adopt new technology, but the experts that I talk to say that AI is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] April Dembosky is a healthcare correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] Health systems are really excited about the potential that AI has primarily in this moment to improve diagnostics, but also to cut down on paperwork and administrative tasks. So if you go see a medical doctor at Sutter or Kaiser right now, very likely you have been or very soon will be asked if it’s okay for the doctor to use an AI note taker where they will use their cell phone. To record the interaction and then the AI will summarize and write notes for your medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Pitt \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] I have an app on my phone that can listen to our conversation and the details of my physical exam and write it all up in your medical record. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:02:39] If folks out there are watching The Pitt, this actually came up in episode two. So the episode that just came out last week. So there’s a new doctor in the ER and she’s introducing the residents to the concept of AI note takers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] What do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, I don’t think it’s a cardiac.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:58] I mean, what do you think of the app?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>00:03:00] I mean, it’s hard to say without seeing the full thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:02] Take a look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Oh my God, do you know how much time this will save?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:07] And so she takes out her cell phone in the exam room and tells a patient, you know, it’s going to record their interaction. And afterward they walk out, they walk over to a computer and the AI has already written a summary of the exam in the patient’s chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] Well, excuse me, it says here she takes risperdol and antipsychotics. She takes restoril when needed for sleep, so is that, um…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] AI, almost intelligent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:34] You must always carefully proofread and correct the minor errors. It’s excellent, but not perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:44] That’s one of the ways that AI is most present in our healthcare right now. I mean, I have friends in the Bay Area who work in healthcare who, you know, I saw some for dinner a little while ago and you know they said, I am here tonight because of the AI note taker. You know, like because the AI notetaker like did my charting for me, I am able to be here and hanging out with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:12] Wow, that is so interesting. And yeah, I mean, we’re wrestling with the role of AI in our healthcare and popular culture, but also in real life right now. I know this is a big, big question that is especially relevant for mental healthcare workers in Northern California right now, specifically at Kaiser. Can you explain? April, why this is such a relevant conversation among mental health care workers right now in particular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] Sure, so mental health clinicians at Kaiser are in contract negotiations right now. They’ve actually been in bargaining for this next contract for about six months now. So it’s been kind of dragging along. And one of the sticking points is actually around AI. So, mental health workers, they know that AI is here to stay in health care, but when it comes to mental health care they want some simple guardrails. They want to make sure that they are part of seeing that AI is rolled out responsibly in a way that protects patients’ privacy, but also in a ways that protects their own jobs. And so one of the things that they’ve asked for in their contract is language that says specifically any introduction of new AI tools will be used only to assist therapists, but it will not be used to replace them. To them, I think this sounds like a really reasonable ask, but they were really surprised when Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] So again, they want flexibility to increase their use of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:06] I talked to Ilana Marcucci-Morris. She’s a clinical social worker at Kaiser. She works in the intake department, and she’s a member of the union that is bargaining this contract. It’s called the National Union of Health Care Workers, NUHW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:22] When we ask that AI not replace us, they will not put that language in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] And when I talk to her, she says, I’m a millennial, I love gadgets, I love tools, you know, I get it. We just want some simple protections here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to not just skip the licensed triage, but to provide, you know, chat based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:54] One of the reasons they’re surprised is because their sister union in Southern California had asked for the same language and Kaiser agreed to it. And that contract was signed last May. And so basically, you know, a month or so after signing a contract that included this language, Kaiser was backing off saying, we don’t wanna commit to that anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:07:20] I mean, they’ll say, no, that’s not our intention. But when we say, hey, can you put that it’s not your intention in the contract? Well, we can’t predict the future. We need to maintain flexibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] So it sounds like these mental health care workers are afraid for their jobs, but some of this technology is already being used. What is it about these tools that they are so concerned about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Basically, Kaiser is excited about getting clinicians to use this note-taking software so that it will free them up to see more patients in a day. But clinicians are really worried about this. I think they’re worried about the privacy and data security, where are these recordings going, how long are they kept, how well are they protected, who else can see them. But specifically, I think they’re also really concerned about how this technology could influence the patient interaction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:08:27] I wouldn’t want a recording of my disagreements with a family member or my trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:08:34] And so what Ilana says is talking to your doctor about a fever or a skin condition, it’s really different from talking to your therapist about really vulnerable, really emotional things that are going on in your life. And they’re concerned that patients, if they know they’re being recorded, that it might cause them to hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:00] A big part of our work is that human connection and rapport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:09:08] So Kaiser clinicians are basically saying, look, you know, right now this technology is optional for us to use, but we’re really worried that Kaiser is going to, you know, try to force us to use it, perhaps even in clinical situations where we think it could be harmful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:27] Having a human being in your court that is trained and is a professional giving you warmth and encouragement and evidence-based direction is something that technology just can’t replace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] AI has already taken roles that people used to have at Kaiser, like doing intake for mental health care. Patients now have the option of doing an e-visit through the app, where you click through a series of questions and the algorithm comes up with a score and recommends where you go next. So far, there isn’t a Kaiser therapist chatbot. Though it hasn’t stopped a lot of people from seeking help for their problems outside of the healthcare system altogether. And April, we’re also in an environment where many people are seeking out mental health help through chatbots, including teenagers. Are patient preferences around this changing as well? And how do mental health experts respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] In the last few years, we’ve seen a huge rise of consumer facing chatbots and these are not therapists to be clear, but people are starting to use them as therapists. This is a trend that is already taken off because they are available immediately. You can tell them how to interact with you and they are always there. There are clinical psychologists who have. You know, been working on a verified evidence-based, widely tested kind of AI chat bot for therapy for at least six years now. And what they will tell you is it takes a really, really long time to develop a proven product like that, that, you know actually conforms to the standards of delivering therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:11:33] We cannot institute any of this on a large scale population level without studying it first and making sure it’s safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:11:42] Jodi Halpern is a bioethics professor at UC Berkeley. Jodi Helpern talks about the potential that chatbots have in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a particular kind of therapy that tends to be a little bit more formal, a little more formulaic, but she’s very circumspect when it comes to relational therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] In the meeting with an empathic human face-to-face, there is the possibility for the patient really to develop trust. And that’s actually a powerful element in improving health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:12:20] Chatbots are not very good at this, especially consumer-facing chatbots are designed to be affirmative. Sycophantic is the word that experts use. They’re just designed to validate everything you say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:40] We need more skillful human workforce in the mental health area to meet our unmet needs. We need AI to unburden the skillful human force through ambient medical records and other forms that don’t have to be intrusive or overly privacy invading, but they can take the workload off clinicians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] Coming back to Kaiser, April, many of their employees are already using AI. No Kaiser AI therapists as of now, although many of the workers like Alana are worried that there could be. Has Kaiser had any response to this story or any thoughts on AI or contract negotiations that they’ve shared with you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] Kaiser has not had a lot to say about this. I’ve interacted with them a fair amount asking for interviews multiple times, and they have not been willing to sit down and talk about this, they shared a statement. It says in part that artificial intelligence tools at Kaiser don’t make medical decisions. Our physicians and care teams are always at the center of decision-making with our patients. AI does not replace human assessment and care, but they do see artificial intelligence holding, as they say, significant potential to benefit healthcare by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] And I mean, it does seem like consumer trends around AI are one thing, April, but it also seems like these sort of large healthcare systems like Kaiser have a really big role to play in terms of the role that AI could play in the future as well. I mean why do you think it’s important to watch what Kaiser does from here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Kaiser is a large healthcare institution. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:01:05] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full-blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to provide, you know, chat-based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:20] Today, will AI replace your therapist? And why the debate at Kaiser is worth watching.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:38] Health care is an industry that is usually pretty slow to adopt new technology, but the experts that I talk to say that AI is different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:49] April Dembosky is a healthcare correspondent for KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:01:52] Health systems are really excited about the potential that AI has primarily in this moment to improve diagnostics, but also to cut down on paperwork and administrative tasks. So if you go see a medical doctor at Sutter or Kaiser right now, very likely you have been or very soon will be asked if it’s okay for the doctor to use an AI note taker where they will use their cell phone. To record the interaction and then the AI will summarize and write notes for your medical chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Pitt \u003c/strong>[00:02:29] I have an app on my phone that can listen to our conversation and the details of my physical exam and write it all up in your medical record. Wow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:02:39] If folks out there are watching The Pitt, this actually came up in episode two. So the episode that just came out last week. So there’s a new doctor in the ER and she’s introducing the residents to the concept of AI note takers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:55] What do you think?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:56] Well, I don’t think it’s a cardiac.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:02:58] I mean, what do you think of the app?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>00:03:00] I mean, it’s hard to say without seeing the full thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:02] Take a look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:04] Oh my God, do you know how much time this will save?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:07] And so she takes out her cell phone in the exam room and tells a patient, you know, it’s going to record their interaction. And afterward they walk out, they walk over to a computer and the AI has already written a summary of the exam in the patient’s chart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:24] Well, excuse me, it says here she takes risperdol and antipsychotics. She takes restoril when needed for sleep, so is that, um…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Medical Student (The Pitt) \u003c/strong>[00:03:31] AI, almost intelligent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Doctor (The Pitt)\u003c/strong> [00:03:34] You must always carefully proofread and correct the minor errors. It’s excellent, but not perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:03:44] That’s one of the ways that AI is most present in our healthcare right now. I mean, I have friends in the Bay Area who work in healthcare who, you know, I saw some for dinner a little while ago and you know they said, I am here tonight because of the AI note taker. You know, like because the AI notetaker like did my charting for me, I am able to be here and hanging out with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:12] Wow, that is so interesting. And yeah, I mean, we’re wrestling with the role of AI in our healthcare and popular culture, but also in real life right now. I know this is a big, big question that is especially relevant for mental healthcare workers in Northern California right now, specifically at Kaiser. Can you explain? April, why this is such a relevant conversation among mental health care workers right now in particular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:04:44] Sure, so mental health clinicians at Kaiser are in contract negotiations right now. They’ve actually been in bargaining for this next contract for about six months now. So it’s been kind of dragging along. And one of the sticking points is actually around AI. So, mental health workers, they know that AI is here to stay in health care, but when it comes to mental health care they want some simple guardrails. They want to make sure that they are part of seeing that AI is rolled out responsibly in a way that protects patients’ privacy, but also in a ways that protects their own jobs. And so one of the things that they’ve asked for in their contract is language that says specifically any introduction of new AI tools will be used only to assist therapists, but it will not be used to replace them. To them, I think this sounds like a really reasonable ask, but they were really surprised when Kaiser said no.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:00] So again, they want flexibility to increase their use of AI.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:06] I talked to Ilana Marcucci-Morris. She’s a clinical social worker at Kaiser. She works in the intake department, and she’s a member of the union that is bargaining this contract. It’s called the National Union of Health Care Workers, NUHW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:22] When we ask that AI not replace us, they will not put that language in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:28] And when I talk to her, she says, I’m a millennial, I love gadgets, I love tools, you know, I get it. We just want some simple protections here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:06:37] A lot of our members are afraid that it’s going to shift into full blown therapy, right? That there are going to be new technologies that allow Kaiser to not just skip the licensed triage, but to provide, you know, chat based mental health care.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:06:54] One of the reasons they’re surprised is because their sister union in Southern California had asked for the same language and Kaiser agreed to it. And that contract was signed last May. And so basically, you know, a month or so after signing a contract that included this language, Kaiser was backing off saying, we don’t wanna commit to that anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:07:20] I mean, they’ll say, no, that’s not our intention. But when we say, hey, can you put that it’s not your intention in the contract? Well, we can’t predict the future. We need to maintain flexibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:07:38] So it sounds like these mental health care workers are afraid for their jobs, but some of this technology is already being used. What is it about these tools that they are so concerned about?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:07:54] Basically, Kaiser is excited about getting clinicians to use this note-taking software so that it will free them up to see more patients in a day. But clinicians are really worried about this. I think they’re worried about the privacy and data security, where are these recordings going, how long are they kept, how well are they protected, who else can see them. But specifically, I think they’re also really concerned about how this technology could influence the patient interaction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:08:27] I wouldn’t want a recording of my disagreements with a family member or my trauma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:08:34] And so what Ilana says is talking to your doctor about a fever or a skin condition, it’s really different from talking to your therapist about really vulnerable, really emotional things that are going on in your life. And they’re concerned that patients, if they know they’re being recorded, that it might cause them to hold back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:00] A big part of our work is that human connection and rapport.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:09:08] So Kaiser clinicians are basically saying, look, you know, right now this technology is optional for us to use, but we’re really worried that Kaiser is going to, you know, try to force us to use it, perhaps even in clinical situations where we think it could be harmful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ilana Marcucci-Morris \u003c/strong>[00:09:27] Having a human being in your court that is trained and is a professional giving you warmth and encouragement and evidence-based direction is something that technology just can’t replace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:09:44] AI has already taken roles that people used to have at Kaiser, like doing intake for mental health care. Patients now have the option of doing an e-visit through the app, where you click through a series of questions and the algorithm comes up with a score and recommends where you go next. So far, there isn’t a Kaiser therapist chatbot. Though it hasn’t stopped a lot of people from seeking help for their problems outside of the healthcare system altogether. And April, we’re also in an environment where many people are seeking out mental health help through chatbots, including teenagers. Are patient preferences around this changing as well? And how do mental health experts respond to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:10:40] In the last few years, we’ve seen a huge rise of consumer facing chatbots and these are not therapists to be clear, but people are starting to use them as therapists. This is a trend that is already taken off because they are available immediately. You can tell them how to interact with you and they are always there. There are clinical psychologists who have. You know, been working on a verified evidence-based, widely tested kind of AI chat bot for therapy for at least six years now. And what they will tell you is it takes a really, really long time to develop a proven product like that, that, you know actually conforms to the standards of delivering therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:11:33] We cannot institute any of this on a large scale population level without studying it first and making sure it’s safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:11:42] Jodi Halpern is a bioethics professor at UC Berkeley. Jodi Helpern talks about the potential that chatbots have in cognitive behavioral therapy, which is a particular kind of therapy that tends to be a little bit more formal, a little more formulaic, but she’s very circumspect when it comes to relational therapy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:04] In the meeting with an empathic human face-to-face, there is the possibility for the patient really to develop trust. And that’s actually a powerful element in improving health outcomes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:12:20] Chatbots are not very good at this, especially consumer-facing chatbots are designed to be affirmative. Sycophantic is the word that experts use. They’re just designed to validate everything you say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jodi Halpern \u003c/strong>[00:12:40] We need more skillful human workforce in the mental health area to meet our unmet needs. We need AI to unburden the skillful human force through ambient medical records and other forms that don’t have to be intrusive or overly privacy invading, but they can take the workload off clinicians.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:13:06] Coming back to Kaiser, April, many of their employees are already using AI. No Kaiser AI therapists as of now, although many of the workers like Alana are worried that there could be. Has Kaiser had any response to this story or any thoughts on AI or contract negotiations that they’ve shared with you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:13:28] Kaiser has not had a lot to say about this. I’ve interacted with them a fair amount asking for interviews multiple times, and they have not been willing to sit down and talk about this, they shared a statement. It says in part that artificial intelligence tools at Kaiser don’t make medical decisions. Our physicians and care teams are always at the center of decision-making with our patients. AI does not replace human assessment and care, but they do see artificial intelligence holding, as they say, significant potential to benefit healthcare by supporting better diagnostics, enhancing patient-clinician relationships, optimizing clinicians’ time, and ensuring fairness in care experiences and health outcomes by addressing individual needs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:14:23] And I mean, it does seem like consumer trends around AI are one thing, April, but it also seems like these sort of large healthcare systems like Kaiser have a really big role to play in terms of the role that AI could play in the future as well. I mean why do you think it’s important to watch what Kaiser does from here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>April Dembosky \u003c/strong>[00:14:48] Kaiser is a large healthcare institution. It has power. It can influence how quickly and how broadly new technologies are adopted in a way that could have impact on the industry as a whole. And it’s also one of the very few systems that has a mental health union that’s trying to influence that process. So I think that those things put together just make it a really interesting health system to watch. For the way that that influence works on how patients access healthcare and how mental health clinicians do their jobs.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "nowhere-left-to-go-as-california-college-of-the-arts-closes-so-does-a-pathway-for-bay-area-artists",
"title": "‘Nowhere Left to Go’: As California College of the Arts Closes, So Does a Pathway for Bay Area Artists",
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"headTitle": "‘Nowhere Left to Go’: As California College of the Arts Closes, So Does a Pathway for Bay Area Artists | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, students, faculty, staff and alumni at the California College of the Arts learned that their school will be closing after the 2026-27 school year. Replacing it will be a new campus, run by Vanderbilt University. \u003c/span>The arts community is now mourning the loss of northern California’s last nonprofit art school, which has served the region for 119 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2577727507&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13985413/california-college-of-the-arts-sfai-mills-art-school-closures\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What We Will Lose When California College of the Arts Closes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:01] \u003c/em>From KQED. I’m Erika Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:10] \u003c/em>Welcome to City Hall and welcome to San Francisco. Today is a big day for our city. We’re here to announce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:20] \u003c/em>Last week, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie held a press conference much like others he’s held since starting the job. It was his usual positive and upbeat tone, and it was a very good morning in San Francisco, he said, as he announced that Nashville-based Vanderbilt University planned to open up a San Francisco campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>We’ve talked a lot this past year about building a city where people can live, work, play, and learn. This announcement brings the learn part of that vision into sharp focus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>And as Lurie marked this as another win for San Francisco’s comeback, others were heartbroken because Vanderbilt will be taking over the campus of the California College of the Arts, which will close in 2027 after more than 100 years in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:24] \u003c/em>It’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:33] \u003c/em>Today we talk with KQED senior arts editor and CCA alum Sarah Hotchkiss about what the Bay Area will lose when the California College of the Arts closes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:53] \u003c/em>How big of a deal is the fact that CCA is now closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>This is a very big deal. This is so sad. We used to have two art schools in San Francisco. We had the San Francisco Art Institute and California College of the Arts. So CCA was always a bit more on the practical side. They had design programs. They offered architecture degrees. They had added UX design or game design. They had an MBA in design strategy. So these are things that really made CCA seem like it could continue to exist in the long run. It wasn’t just focused on its original set of programming, which was about the arts and crafts movement, which was art glass and ceramics and painting and sculpture. It had really changed over its 119-year run. And I think you also take for granted when something exists for that long that it’s gonna continue to exists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:59] \u003c/em>You mentioned 119 years in the Bay Area. I mean, I guess what is the college best known for in terms of its long history here in the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:14] \u003c/em>Craft focus is a big part of that. And just think about how many students, faculty, and staff worked there over that 119-year history. I mean, the names that came out of CCA and the people that work there are really incredible, like Viola Fry, who was a ceramics professor and is a very well-known local artist. Larry Sultan was a photography teacher at CCA. I took a class with Jeffrey Gibson, who went on to represent the United States at the Venice Biennale. So it really had an incredible cast of luminaries teaching there over the years. And then the alumni list is equally long and notable\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:00] \u003c/em>I mean, what do we know about why CCA is closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:06] \u003c/em>The short answer is money. So in 2024, the school announced that it had a $20 million deficit, and it announced layoffs at that time. The problem in short is that CCA costs more to run than it can bring in in revenue. It relies very heavily on tuition. This is a school without a huge endowment. And the operating budget is somewhere around $100 million. So with a $20 million deficit, you just cannot sustain that in the long run. And over the past year and a half, two years, they have been able to stop gap fundraise. But that doesn’t add up, as we know, to long-term sustaining operating budget. So CCA has really been looking for a way to either merge or shift their offerings in order to be able to exist. And they just could not figure out a way to do that in the long run. What impact is this having on the current students who are enrolled? So the announcement came with some explanation. If you can finish up your degree before the end of the 2026, 2027 school year, you will graduate with a CCA diploma. But if you cannot finish your degree, say you’re a freshman in the first year of a four-year program, you’re going to have to transfer elsewhere. And that might, you know, you could apply to Vanderbilt, but there is no guarantee that you’re going to get into Vanderbilt. And they also don’t offer the same programs that CCA does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:41] \u003c/em>It was really good. I love the dorms. I loved the people here. My professors are great. They helped me a lot with anything I needed, I learned a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:50] \u003c/em>I talked to Jack Wroten who’s a first year illustration student in the BFA program and he learned about the closure of his school the same way everyone else did via an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:02] \u003c/em>We had like absolutely no warning. It was this random Tuesday morning right before New Scalesters birds that we found out from an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:11] \u003c/em>He was so excited to go to CCA. He’s there with his best friend. He’s from Northern California. We both went to art school and we started looking at schools together. And CCA was like always our top choice. And he’s one semester in to his program and now has to figure out where he can transfer that also offers an illustration degree because in that first semester, he became very committed to this as a future, as a career, super excited to work with all the teachers there. And they have to now juggle this whole existential crisis of my school will not continue to exist anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>Now I just have to find a new school, and I don’t even know that all of my credits were gonna transfer or all that stuff. After like everything I did to get here after one semester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:09] \u003c/em>And what about CCA faculty, Sarah? How are they reacting to this news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:15] \u003c/em>The faculty are, you know, heartbroken, but also really focused on helping students out over the next three semesters. You know, how can we set them up to transfer, hopefully. I think I would just also add that because CCA is closing, there’s nowhere left for these people to teach and work. And we’ve had so many art programs and schools close in the Bay Area over the When SFAI closed in 2022, CCA actually was able to absorb some of that fallout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:48] \u003c/em>And that’s the San Francisco Art Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>Yes. They accepted some of the students that needed to transfer. People got teaching jobs at CCA, probably not full-time or tenure-track jobs, but at least something. We also saw Mills College merge with Northeastern. And even though that was put forward as a merger and we had a lot of high hopes for what would remain, it’s a shell of itself. And students from Northeaster can take art classes, but no one is getting a degree in the arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:22] \u003c/em>And obviously, one thing I’m thinking about is you don’t necessarily have to go to art school to be an artist, right? But why are these closures and these mergers that we’re talking about so significant, especially when talking about and thinking about the pathways for artists in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:41] \u003c/em>Yeah, absolutely, you don’t have to go to art school, and it’s also a very expensive and debt-ridden proposition, but it is an incredible shortcut to a life in the arts. I think art schools do something really amazing, which is draw people who don’t otherwise have a reason to be in the Bay Area to the Bay area. CCA is the reason that I am in San Francisco. It’s the reason I am an arts journalist, weirdly, even though I went to a graduate program in painting. It brings people here, it keeps them here because you have that network of the school that continues to support you after you finish a program. And it graduates a new class of young, eager, excited people into the arts every single year. And CCA wasn’t just a practicing art school, there was also a curatorial program at one point. There’s a whole fiction department, comics artists, like a very diverse ecosystem of what a life in the arts can be. It also provided so many jobs for people, not just people who are teaching the classes, but everyone else who’s supporting those classes. So like the person running the photo studio or the wood shop, those are probably artists who are sustaining a life in the Bay Area because they have this day job. Has Jack told you anything about what he plans to do in the next few months? Yeah, so Jack has been looking at Otis College of Art and Design, which is a school down in Los Angeles, to finish out his illustration degree. And so far, that’s the only school I’ve heard of that’s really set up any sort of messaging for CCA students. So they have a whole portal on their website that’s like, hey, come to us. Here’s what is an analog to the program that you were in. Here’s how we’re going to waive the application fee. It sounds like they’re gonna wave the limit on the number of credits that you can transfer. So that’s encouraging, but we’re gonna need more of that and we’re going to need CCA to do work on its own end to form those partnerships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:58] \u003c/em>So Sarah, Mayor Daniel Lurie has said the arts will lead San Francisco’s comeback, but how do you square that with CCA’s closure?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:07] \u003c/em>What was upsetting about Mayor Daniel Lurie’s announcement and this kind of tone deafness was this misunderstanding of how the ecosystem works and how all these things fit together. Mayor Lurrie made this announcement in his office on one of his social media videos in front of a painting by a CCA alum and current faculty member. And in the video, he doesn’t mention CCA once. He just says, go Vanderbilt, anchor down, Let’s go San Francisco. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school. To lose that, to lose that momentum and that energy, it’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. Every year, a graduating class feeds into the excitement and energy of what’s happening in this region. Young art school weirdos are the people who start up those project spaces in their garages and like, Do weird things and storefronts and keep this place reinventing itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:16] \u003c/em>Thank you for sharing your reporting with us. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:21] \u003c/em>Thanks for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Last week, students, faculty, staff and alumni at the California College of the Arts learned that their school will be closing after the 2026-27 school year. Replacing it will be a new campus, run by Vanderbilt University. \u003c/span>The arts community is now mourning the loss of northern California’s last nonprofit art school, which has served the region for 119 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC2577727507&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Links:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13985413/california-college-of-the-arts-sfai-mills-art-school-closures\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What We Will Lose When California College of the Arts Closes\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:01] \u003c/em>From KQED. I’m Erika Cruz Guevara and welcome to The Bay, local news to keep you rooted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:10] \u003c/em>Welcome to City Hall and welcome to San Francisco. Today is a big day for our city. We’re here to announce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:20] \u003c/em>Last week, San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie held a press conference much like others he’s held since starting the job. It was his usual positive and upbeat tone, and it was a very good morning in San Francisco, he said, as he announced that Nashville-based Vanderbilt University planned to open up a San Francisco campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Lurie: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:00:47] \u003c/em>We’ve talked a lot this past year about building a city where people can live, work, play, and learn. This announcement brings the learn part of that vision into sharp focus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:01] \u003c/em>And as Lurie marked this as another win for San Francisco’s comeback, others were heartbroken because Vanderbilt will be taking over the campus of the California College of the Arts, which will close in 2027 after more than 100 years in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:24] \u003c/em>It’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:33] \u003c/em>Today we talk with KQED senior arts editor and CCA alum Sarah Hotchkiss about what the Bay Area will lose when the California College of the Arts closes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:53] \u003c/em>How big of a deal is the fact that CCA is now closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:01:58] \u003c/em>This is a very big deal. This is so sad. We used to have two art schools in San Francisco. We had the San Francisco Art Institute and California College of the Arts. So CCA was always a bit more on the practical side. They had design programs. They offered architecture degrees. They had added UX design or game design. They had an MBA in design strategy. So these are things that really made CCA seem like it could continue to exist in the long run. It wasn’t just focused on its original set of programming, which was about the arts and crafts movement, which was art glass and ceramics and painting and sculpture. It had really changed over its 119-year run. And I think you also take for granted when something exists for that long that it’s gonna continue to exists.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:02:59] \u003c/em>You mentioned 119 years in the Bay Area. I mean, I guess what is the college best known for in terms of its long history here in the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:03:14] \u003c/em>Craft focus is a big part of that. And just think about how many students, faculty, and staff worked there over that 119-year history. I mean, the names that came out of CCA and the people that work there are really incredible, like Viola Fry, who was a ceramics professor and is a very well-known local artist. Larry Sultan was a photography teacher at CCA. I took a class with Jeffrey Gibson, who went on to represent the United States at the Venice Biennale. So it really had an incredible cast of luminaries teaching there over the years. And then the alumni list is equally long and notable\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:00] \u003c/em>I mean, what do we know about why CCA is closing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:04:06] \u003c/em>The short answer is money. So in 2024, the school announced that it had a $20 million deficit, and it announced layoffs at that time. The problem in short is that CCA costs more to run than it can bring in in revenue. It relies very heavily on tuition. This is a school without a huge endowment. And the operating budget is somewhere around $100 million. So with a $20 million deficit, you just cannot sustain that in the long run. And over the past year and a half, two years, they have been able to stop gap fundraise. But that doesn’t add up, as we know, to long-term sustaining operating budget. So CCA has really been looking for a way to either merge or shift their offerings in order to be able to exist. And they just could not figure out a way to do that in the long run. What impact is this having on the current students who are enrolled? So the announcement came with some explanation. If you can finish up your degree before the end of the 2026, 2027 school year, you will graduate with a CCA diploma. But if you cannot finish your degree, say you’re a freshman in the first year of a four-year program, you’re going to have to transfer elsewhere. And that might, you know, you could apply to Vanderbilt, but there is no guarantee that you’re going to get into Vanderbilt. And they also don’t offer the same programs that CCA does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:41] \u003c/em>It was really good. I love the dorms. I loved the people here. My professors are great. They helped me a lot with anything I needed, I learned a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:05:50] \u003c/em>I talked to Jack Wroten who’s a first year illustration student in the BFA program and he learned about the closure of his school the same way everyone else did via an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:02] \u003c/em>We had like absolutely no warning. It was this random Tuesday morning right before New Scalesters birds that we found out from an email.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:11] \u003c/em>He was so excited to go to CCA. He’s there with his best friend. He’s from Northern California. We both went to art school and we started looking at schools together. And CCA was like always our top choice. And he’s one semester in to his program and now has to figure out where he can transfer that also offers an illustration degree because in that first semester, he became very committed to this as a future, as a career, super excited to work with all the teachers there. And they have to now juggle this whole existential crisis of my school will not continue to exist anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jack Wroten: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:06:52] \u003c/em>Now I just have to find a new school, and I don’t even know that all of my credits were gonna transfer or all that stuff. After like everything I did to get here after one semester.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:09] \u003c/em>And what about CCA faculty, Sarah? How are they reacting to this news?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:15] \u003c/em>The faculty are, you know, heartbroken, but also really focused on helping students out over the next three semesters. You know, how can we set them up to transfer, hopefully. I think I would just also add that because CCA is closing, there’s nowhere left for these people to teach and work. And we’ve had so many art programs and schools close in the Bay Area over the When SFAI closed in 2022, CCA actually was able to absorb some of that fallout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:48] \u003c/em>And that’s the San Francisco Art Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:07:52] \u003c/em>Yes. They accepted some of the students that needed to transfer. People got teaching jobs at CCA, probably not full-time or tenure-track jobs, but at least something. We also saw Mills College merge with Northeastern. And even though that was put forward as a merger and we had a lot of high hopes for what would remain, it’s a shell of itself. And students from Northeaster can take art classes, but no one is getting a degree in the arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:22] \u003c/em>And obviously, one thing I’m thinking about is you don’t necessarily have to go to art school to be an artist, right? But why are these closures and these mergers that we’re talking about so significant, especially when talking about and thinking about the pathways for artists in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:08:41] \u003c/em>Yeah, absolutely, you don’t have to go to art school, and it’s also a very expensive and debt-ridden proposition, but it is an incredible shortcut to a life in the arts. I think art schools do something really amazing, which is draw people who don’t otherwise have a reason to be in the Bay Area to the Bay area. CCA is the reason that I am in San Francisco. It’s the reason I am an arts journalist, weirdly, even though I went to a graduate program in painting. It brings people here, it keeps them here because you have that network of the school that continues to support you after you finish a program. And it graduates a new class of young, eager, excited people into the arts every single year. And CCA wasn’t just a practicing art school, there was also a curatorial program at one point. There’s a whole fiction department, comics artists, like a very diverse ecosystem of what a life in the arts can be. It also provided so many jobs for people, not just people who are teaching the classes, but everyone else who’s supporting those classes. So like the person running the photo studio or the wood shop, those are probably artists who are sustaining a life in the Bay Area because they have this day job. Has Jack told you anything about what he plans to do in the next few months? Yeah, so Jack has been looking at Otis College of Art and Design, which is a school down in Los Angeles, to finish out his illustration degree. And so far, that’s the only school I’ve heard of that’s really set up any sort of messaging for CCA students. So they have a whole portal on their website that’s like, hey, come to us. Here’s what is an analog to the program that you were in. Here’s how we’re going to waive the application fee. It sounds like they’re gonna wave the limit on the number of credits that you can transfer. So that’s encouraging, but we’re gonna need more of that and we’re going to need CCA to do work on its own end to form those partnerships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:10:58] \u003c/em>So Sarah, Mayor Daniel Lurie has said the arts will lead San Francisco’s comeback, but how do you square that with CCA’s closure?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:11:07] \u003c/em>What was upsetting about Mayor Daniel Lurie’s announcement and this kind of tone deafness was this misunderstanding of how the ecosystem works and how all these things fit together. Mayor Lurrie made this announcement in his office on one of his social media videos in front of a painting by a CCA alum and current faculty member. And in the video, he doesn’t mention CCA once. He just says, go Vanderbilt, anchor down, Let’s go San Francisco. If you’re gonna have an arts ecosystem at all, you need to have an art school. To lose that, to lose that momentum and that energy, it’s really hitting the arts community very hard right now. Every year, a graduating class feeds into the excitement and energy of what’s happening in this region. Young art school weirdos are the people who start up those project spaces in their garages and like, Do weird things and storefronts and keep this place reinventing itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:16] \u003c/em>Thank you for sharing your reporting with us. I really appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Hotchkiss: \u003c/b>\u003cem>[00:12:21] \u003c/em>Thanks for having me, Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"order": 8
},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
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},
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
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