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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] You may remember that in 2021, California voters were asked whether or not to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] Prop 5 – Changes recall election process for statewide officers\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] Hey, how’s it going?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] Good. So this proposition that we’re talking about today pertains to recall reform. Before we dive in here, how exactly do recalls for people in statewide office currently work in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] And as you just mentioned, and just to clarify for voters, Prop 5 specifically pertains to recalls for statewide office, right? Not local office. So what kinds of elected positions are we talking about here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:55] The recall campaign against Governor Gray-Davis is gathering steam with the launch of the\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] And let’s get into the politics of this a little bit, Guy. Who else is sort of pushing for Prop 5 to be passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to \u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\">https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] You may remember that in 2021, California voters were asked whether or not to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] Prop 5 – Changes recall election process for statewide officers\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] Good. So this proposition that we’re talking about today pertains to recall reform. Before we dive in here, how exactly do recalls for people in statewide office currently work in California?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] And as you just mentioned, and just to clarify for voters, Prop 5 specifically pertains to recalls for statewide office, right? Not local office. So what kinds of elected positions are we talking about here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] And let’s get into the politics of this a little bit, Guy. Who else is sort of pushing for Prop 5 to be passed?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to \u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\">https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:00] You may remember that in 2021, California voters were asked whether or not to recall Governor Gavin Newsom from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:08] But there was also a second question on the ballot. Who should replace him if he was recalled?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:15] Obviously, the recall failed, but if it was successful, Newsom would have technically been replaced by Republican Larry Elder, who won about 48% of the vote in that second question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:29] And that’s how the process works for state-wide recall elections right now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:33] But proposition five could change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:37] I’m Olivia Allen Price, host of Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:40] And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/strong>[00:00:43] Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between The Bay and BayCurious. And we’re back again with another episode to help you get up to speed on all the statewide propositions on the ballot this November.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:00:54] Today, we’re breaking down proposition five. Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:01:00] Prop 5 – Changes recall election process for statewide officers\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:07] Here to break it down for us is KQED’s politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:14] Hey, how’s it going?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:01:15] Good. So this proposition that we’re talking about today pertains to recall reform. Before we dive in here, how exactly do recalls for people in statewide office currently work in California?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:01:31] Yeah, so the rules for recall in California are different for state office and local office. For local office, it’s probably somewhat of a familiar process for people. There’s a question on the ballot, should this person be removed from office? If they are removed, then how the next person gets chosen can result in a variety of ways. So if you remember the Oakland mayor recall, there was a special election after that. There was the district attorney recalls in Alameda and SF. The replacements there were appointed. State recalls work a little bit differently where voters are asked two questions on the ballot. One is, should this statewide official be removed? And then the second question is, if they are removed, who should replace them? And there’s a list of candidates that voters get to choose from. And what proposition five would do is eliminate that second question, that question about the successor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:02:30] And as you just mentioned, and just to clarify for voters, Prop 5 specifically pertains to recalls for statewide office, right? Not local office. So what kinds of elected positions are we talking about here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:02:45] That’s right, so this would only apply to statewide offices like governor, like attorney general and like state legislative offices, so assembly and Senate. And basically what it would do is make state recall elections more like local recall elections where there’s only one question on the ballot and it’s asking whether or not this elected official should be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:03:06] And just for some background here, Guy, how often have recall campaigns been actually put before California voters in the past when it comes to these statewide offices? Like have sitting politicians actually even been recalled before?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:03:23] Yes. So since voters in California approved this recall process more than a hundred years ago, goes all the way back to 1911, there have been 11 recall elections against statewide officials. Of those six recalls have been successful. Five recall elections have been unsuccessful. The most famous successful recall election was in 2003, when Governor Gray Davis, a Democrat, was recalled by voters. And Republican Arnold Schwarzenegger won the successor election and became governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:55] The recall campaign against Governor Gray-Davis is gathering steam with the launch of the\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover \u003c/strong>[00:03:59] Governor Gray Davis is hurting our state and our people. First question you’re asked, do you believe it should be recalled? Then the second question is, should it be recalled, who would you like to see replace it? And it’s an open primary, one ballot. And whoever gets the most vote, if a majority say yes on recall, immediately becomes the governor of California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:04:23] And the proponents of this measure sort of point to that election as a reason to make these kind of changes that Prop 5 is proposing, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:04:36] Yeah, you know, I think supporters say it’s fundamentally unfair that someone can win a successor election on a recall ballot and not get a majority vote, which can happen if there’s a if there is a recall against a state official and a majority of voters elect to recall that official, the top replacement candidate doesn’t need to get a majority vote. They just need to finish first and suddenly they take that office. So supporters of Proposition 5 say… This is basically a loophole. This is a workaround where someone could potentially become governor of California without ever getting a majority vote.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:05:13] So I get that that second question won’t be there on the ballot if Prop 5 is passed, but let’s say that the person does get recalled. What happens next in this Prop 5 universe? Like are they outed immediately or who takes their place at least temporarily?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:05:32] If you’re recalling a state legislator, so a state senator or a state assembly member, what will happen is there could be a special election called after the fact, where a new state legislate is picked. In the case of statewide offices, like attorney general, like secretary of state, a new secretary of State, a new attorney general will be appointed. In the cases of the governor, basically the lieutenant governor would take over And then there would be. An election to replace or to pick the next governor. So if it happens early in the governor’s term, there would be a special election taking place at the next statewide election where our voters would get to choose and vote on a new governor. If it happens late in that governor’s turn, the lieutenant governor would simply just fill the seat until the regularly scheduled election for governor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:24] We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on PopFest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org slash podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:06:49] And let’s get into the politics of this a little bit, Guy. Who else is sort of pushing for Prop 5 to be passed?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:06:57] Yeah, so this is really turned into kind of a partisan divide on Proposition 5, where we see the California Democratic Party in support, almost entirely Democrats in the legislature voted to put this on the ballot. And one of the top supporters of Proposition five is Shirley Weber, who’s California the secretary of state, the top election official.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:17] This was a way in which people could game the system, looking for a time when we had low voter turnout. Then we’d have all these folks on the ballot and then you’d pick somebody and they’d have 30% or 20% of whatever it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:27] She said her office started working on these potential reforms to introduce them after the unsuccessful recall of Newsom in 2021. And here’s Weber talking about their proposal at a state Senate hearing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Shirley Weber \u003c/strong>[00:07:40] The whole election about, should this person be recalled? So that the discussion is on the merit of the recall itself, not on is there a better replacement, but should this be person be recall? Has there been enough?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:07:51] Proponents here are really arguing that the state should avoid what happened in the last two recall elections for governor. What we’ve seen in the past is, when there’s a recall facing someone like Gray Davis, or in 2021, we saw this, a recall-facing Gavin Newsom, there’s also this second campaign that plays out in parallel about, okay, well, who should the replacement candidate be? Who should the top replacement candidate? This would eliminate that second part, and supporters say, well yes, this will really allow the conversation and the debate to focus on whether or not this person facing a recall actually deserves to be removed from office.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:08:29] Who is opposed to this measure and why?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:31] The opposition has come from Republicans, California’s Republican Party, Republicans in the state legislature, who have really argued against making this change the state’s recall rules.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:08:43] This is insane. We should be able to continue the process for recalls where if someone is being recalled from office, we first vote on the ballot. And secondly, we say, if they’re recalled, here’s who we want to take over representation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:08:57] Republican Assemblymember Carl DeMaio is running an effort to support and oppose a few different measures, including oppose Proposition 5. And the argument you really hear from opponents of Prop 5 is that the recall system is working as it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio \u003c/strong>[00:09:12] Please don’t weaken the recall provision in the state constitution. It’s one of the only things we have to hold politicians accountable.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:09:19] There doesn’t need to be any changes to it. It has existed in the state for over 100 years. They say the idea of having a governor be removed by the will of the people, by the voters, only to have a lieutenant governor come in and take their place is not really the change that voters who are pushing a recall are looking for in the first place. We see in modern day in California, the governor and lieutenant governor are almost always Democratic. And so if there’s a recall election against the governor, voters are seeking change. Number one, having just the next Democrat in line take that office might not really reflect to the will of what brought the voters to a recall. And secondly, the lieutenant governor would then serve as governor without ever having been elected. So if the argument for Proposition 5 is that a successor could take office with less than 50% of the vote, well Under Prop 5, the lieutenant governor would take office and they didn’t get any of the vote for governor. So opponents of Prop 5 see this as real flaws with the measure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:10:25] And is anyone throwing lots of money into Prop 5 on either side? And any sense guy of how likely this is to pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:10:36] You know, we haven’t seen any campaign spending with Proposition 5 on either side. In mid-September, the Public Policy Institute of California released polling on the statewide measures and it showed just 35% of voters supporting Proposition five with 59% opposed. In what really looks like another example of California voters appearing hesitant to make really any changes to the state system of direct democracy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/strong>[00:11:02] Well, Guy, thank you so much, as always, for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati \u003c/strong>[00:11:06] Of course, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Your support makes KQED podcasts possible. You can show your love by going to \u003ca href=\"https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\">https://kqed.org/donate/podcasts\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story was reported by Guy Marzorati. Prop Fest is a collaboration between Bay Curious and The Bay. It’s made by Olivia Allen-Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck and Pauline Bartolone. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "the-spookiest-bay-area-films-to-stream-this-halloween",
"title": "The Spookiest Bay Area Films to Stream This Halloween",
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"headTitle": "The Spookiest Bay Area Films to Stream This Halloween | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As longtime locals and film obsessives, we’ll admit our bias up front: the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area\u003c/a> puts on a masterclass in horror atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alongside the postcard views is a landscape engineered for suspense. Thick fog strips visibility to zero without warning. Hilly terrain turns every curve into a blind leap. And hanging over it all is the eerie geography of being at the edge of the continent — on the precipice of the deep, freezing Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s why we put together this list of our favorite scary movies filmed in the Bay Area. Spend spooky season with local thrills you may not know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m9c0gBgh6c\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>The Fog\u003c/em> (1980)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080749/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Local legend tells of a ship lured onto the rocks of Antonio Bay being enveloped by a supernatural cloud as it sank; the myth says that when this mysterious fog returns, the victims will rise up from the depths seeking vengeance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Peep scenic North Bay locations like Stinson Beach and Point Reyes in this oft-overlooked John Carpenter film made on the heels of his smash hit, Halloween. In the film, the Point Reyes Lighthouse was chosen as the headquarters of K.A.B. radio, a central location in the film. It happens to be one of the windiest and foggiest places in North America — so the ambiance for this horror film was ready-made. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a cozy classic as well,” KQED’s Carly Severn said. “It’s just so evocative of the fall to me. I always regarded this movie as an oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Plus, we love to see our eternal weather pattern cast in a spooky light.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Fog has gotten too cute,” said Peter Hartlaub, culture critic with the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>. “There’s Karl the Fog. We’re wearing all these little foggy T-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9VqUzdEQsk\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Invasion of the Body Snatchers\u003c/em> (1978)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077745/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> When strange seeds drift to Earth from space, mysterious pods begin to grow and invade San Francisco, replicating the city’s residents one body at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> If you want a horror film with a strong sense of San Francisco, this one is tough to beat. “One of the best uses of locations,” Hartlaub said. “City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. The Painted Ladies.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nearly every scene feels like San Francisco — even the interior shots. Plus, the old-school special effects are straight up \u003cem>creepy\u003c/em> in a way CGI just can’t touch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’ve watched it probably 10 times. I think it’s one of the best San Francisco films, maybe the most underrated,” Hartlaub said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCxR7dlavwg\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em> (1963) \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056869/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20birds\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A wealthy San Francisco socialite follows a potential boyfriend to a small Northern California town that slowly takes a turn toward the bizarre when birds of all kinds suddenly begin to attack people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> Look, it just doesn’t get more “classic Bay Area horror film” than \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em>. Alfred Hitchcock is one of cinema’s greatest, and he delivers in this nature-strikes-back film. The movie starts in Union Square in downtown San Francisco, but spends most of its time in the North Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green pencil skirt,” Hartlaub said. “She falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrqsdlgqCw\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>The Lost Boys\u003c/em> (1987)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093437/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20lost%20boys\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>When a recently divorced mother and her two teenage boys move to a coastal town to stay with her father, it doesn’t take long for the brothers to realize the area is a haven for something much more sinister than party-going surfers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Santa Cruz may technically be beyond the nine-county Bay Area, but spiritually it feels the part. The Santa Cruz Boardwalk and surrounding area are core to the film and help underscore the film’s 1980s teenage nostalgia. Atlantis Fantasyworld Comic Book Shop plays a central role, too. Every once in a while they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz, which is absolutely the most primo way to watch it.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of being a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town,” Hartlaub said. “There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure, there’s Chinese food that turns into maggots.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chilling!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNncHPl1UXg\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Zodiac\u003c/em> (2007)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443706/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Between 1968 and 1983, a San Francisco cartoonist becomes an amateur detective obsessed with tracking down the Zodiac Killer, an unidentified individual who terrorizes Northern California with a killing spree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It’s not just one of the best scary movies set in the Bay Area; we’d argue it’s one of the best Bay Area movies, period. It should be on anybody’s watch list who has moved to San Francisco because it’s based on a true story — so you’ll learn some local history too!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the film, you’ll spot familiar sites like Original Joe’s, San Francisco City Hall, Lake Berryessa and ACT Theatre. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> newsroom scenes were shot on a soundstage in Hollywood, but the set is so darn close to reality, we’ll count it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“How the movie manages the passage of time is so interesting,” Severn said. “Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though decades have passed since the real-life murders took place, \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> still has a reporter assigned to updates on the Zodiac killer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job,” Hartlaub said. “It was [reporter] Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and he thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in … it’s not over.\u003cem>”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JidGAt7zXT0\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Pacific Heights \u003c/em>(1990)\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100318/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_2_nm_0_in_0_q_pacific%20heights\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Drake and Patty purchase a San Francisco Victorian hoping to fund their future through rental income. Their stability collapses when Carter Hayes occupies the studio, weaponizing tenant laws to drain their finances and sanity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>OK, this film should have been called “Potrero Hill” because that’s where it was nearly entirely filmed. “And it dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws,” Hartlaub said. But we’ll overlook both those details because there are so many other things to love about this film.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Director John Schlesinger clearly drew inspiration from Alfred Hitchcock’s \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Vertigo\u003c/em> because there are callbacks throughout the film — including casting Melanie Griffith, the daughter of \u003cem>The Birds’\u003c/em> star Tippi Hedren. And Hedren makes a brief wordless cameo herself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Much like David Fincher’s \u003cem>The Game\u003c/em>, it takes place right before the city really shifted from the old money to the tech money,” Hartlaub said. “So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmINBAFhveM\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Burnt Offerings\u003c/em> (1976)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074258/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A family moves into a large old mansion in the countryside which seems to have a mysterious and sinister power over its new residents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It was filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, a large neoclassical mansion that dates back to 1899. The house is a gem of real estate in the Bay Area in many ways, though it has fallen into disrepair in recent decades. \u003ca href=\"https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/restore-the-dunsmuir-hellman-historic-estate-protect-oaklands-most-storied-mansion\">Grassroots efforts are underway\u003c/a> to try to urge the City of Oakland to take action.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Burnt Offerings is a scary house movie, but not in the haunted sense you might expect. There are no ghosts, creaking doors or jump scares. This film is all about the sinister way the people who live inside the house start acting.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“In the first five or 10 minutes, they set up that this family loves each other; they banter with each other,” Severn said. “And then seeing how the house starts to affect them. It just kind of gets under your skin.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This one also has an awesome cast, including Oliver Reed and Bette Davis in her final role. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sYSyuuLk5g\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Contagion \u003c/em>(2011) \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1598778/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Healthcare professionals, government officials and everyday people find themselves in the midst of a pandemic as the CDC works to find a cure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>San Francisco features heavily in this thriller that had us all wondering during the COVID-19 pandemic: “Did they know this was coming?” Locals will spot scenes set in North Beach, outside Bill Graham Civic Auditorium and inside Candlestick Park (RIP!). \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This recommendation came from Bay Curious listener Kai Ando, who had this to say about it: “Because I watched it during the COVID pandemic and because it was set in the Bay … I think it stuck with me pretty deeply and even afterwards.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did we leave out one of your favorites? Let us know by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you’ve been following Bay Curious over the years, you may have detected by now that Halloween is my favorite holiday, and it’s not even close. I think part of my obsession is the changing of the season, of course, from the go-go-go of summer to the, you know, cup of tea vibes we get in early fall. And I feel like during trick-or-treating, the streets of our neighborhoods come alive like no other time of year, all packed with excited kids, adults laughing with each other. And teenagers in the shadows doing whatever it is teenagers do. And of course, the costumes. Now I love an elaborate something that takes weeks of planning, multiple trips to the craft store and several late nights to come together. But to get into the spirit this year, I am feeling called to the couch. It’s been a busy summer and I’m ready to just sit and chill a little bit and watch some scary movies. As is my inclination, perhaps obsession, I figure I may as well make them Bay Area scary movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So as I was creating my watch list, I decided to call my two most trusted friends when it comes to all things Bay Area film and ask them, “What should we be watching this spooky season?” So here to offer their top recommendations are Carly Severn, KQED’s senior editor of Audience News. Hey, Carly.\u003cbr> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Hello Olivia, the calls are coming from inside the house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ahhh, they are. Spoiler alert, we’re all sitting around one table. And Peter Hartlaub, San Francisco Chronicle’s Culture Critic. Welcome, Peter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I am so glad to be back with you all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yay! I’m glad you’re saying ‘glad to be back’ because this is getting the gang back together because a few years ago, this same trio, we made an episode around Christmas time with your recommendations for Bay Area movies at the request of a listener, but today we’re back with a spooky twist on the theme and I couldn’t be more excited.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Oh we’re like the killer that just won’t die. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before we get into your recs, I want to establish your credentials as people who know scary things. So I’ve got a quick list of warm up questions, and I’m looking for quick and punchy answers here. Are you ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Ready.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I’m ready.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, starting with you. Best Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Mini Twix or Mini Snickers, no question.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mini?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I love a little fun size because then you can eat 5,000 of them.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wonderful. Peter, favorite Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fun-size Heath bar. And here’s the thing, the people giving away the full-size candy bar often are so wealthy you have to walk way up the path and you’re getting less candy overall so hot tip the fun size is OK.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about worst Halloween candy? What do you get and you just groan? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>What’s that corn thing?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Candy corn?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Candy corn, yeah. Horrible. Get it off the planet.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Oh my God, I love candy corn. I’m sorry. This recording is over.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I’ll see myself out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>This is like black licorice. This is a very, very controversial one. I’m going with those black and orange wrapped up little peanut butter toffee things that always end up in the bottom of your kid’s Halloween bag after you’ve stolen all of the rest of their candy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that toffee shows up in both your favorite and least favorite candies though.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Yes, there’s good and bad toffee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about the place in the Bay Area you would be most afraid to spend the night by yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I had to think about this, because I think there’s some haunted hotel rooms, but I think I’d kind of be into that in a sort of 1408 way. So I decided Golden Gate Park, because the lighting there is not good, and what if I cannot find my way out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so you’re afraid of getting lost?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Peter, what about you? I’m afraid of heights, so the top of Sutro Tower, which in addition to being super scary from a heights point of view, has a haunted elevator going up. I’ve been on it. It’s … we don’t wanna talk about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, and what about … oh, this is my favorite question actually, the favorite costume you’ve ever worn. I’m going to Peter first for this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I made a Gandalf costume for my son that had a light up staff and I loved it so much that I altered it and wore it myself two years later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Nice. How old was he at the time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>He was seven and didn’t know who Gandalf was. This was strictly performative parenting, but I did have him slamming it on the ground and saying, ‘you shall not pass.’ Really entertaining.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> The parental equivalent of making your kid wear the Ramones t-shirt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Very much so, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I feel personally attacked by that. Carly, what about you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I made a really good Shelley Duvall from The Shining, but I think a couple of years previous I was Pris, the Daryl Hannah robot character from Blade Runner, and I looked fine, I’m just going to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Not to humble brag but\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> No, no, it’s a long time and you can boast about yourself if it’s a long time ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What do you think makes the Bay Area such a good background for a horror film?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I think there are two things that elevate the Bay Area over a lot of other cities. The climate and the topography. And with climate, the fog, what is scarier than that? What could come through the fog? Constantly changing unpredictable weather I think is scarier than being in Los Angeles and oh, it’s 70 degrees again. Topography, you’re going over the hill. What’s gonna be over that hill? It’s kind of, there’s this living element to … Exploring a city and not knowing what’s going to be around the next curve, not knowing what’s gonna be over the next hill and I think those two things sort of like become characters in some of these films that we’re going to discuss today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Completely agree. And I think a lot about this patch of the West Coast as well, that it can have that end of the line feeling. You have gone as far west as you can and now there is just a great expanse of nothing, the Pacific Ocean. There’s also a history as well. The Golden State literally built on wealth accumulated during the gold rush. And you always wonder, like, what’s behind that? Too good to be true. What are the real stories behind that, what are the darker hidden histories behind that? And that’s something that- I think a lot of Bay Area-set horror movies, either directly or indirectly, are also wrestling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music transition\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So let’s get onto the main business for today, your scary movie recommendations. Now, I had each of you come with three recommendations, and then we also have one from a Bay Curious listener who responded to a call out. So let us delay no longer and get to it. Peter, I’m gonna start with you. What is the first movie you would recommend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds. So The Birds is a 1963 film starring Tippi Hedren as a little bit of a socialite, starts in Union Square at a Union Square pet shop. I’m trying to figure out where it was. I think it’s where the Disney store is now. Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green kind of pencil skirt, falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them, quickly turns into a horror film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Birds clip:\u003c/strong> I want you to go as quietly as possible. Do not make a sound until I tell you to run. Then run as quickly as you can. Now does everybody understand? Yes, sir. All right, John, you lead the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Where everyone from school children to people in a diner are trying to survive this attack of all the birds in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, what is your first recommendation? My first recommendation is The Fog by John Carpenter, which is about a town on the Northern California coast that is about to celebrate its 100th anniversary. And 100 years ago, something happened off the waters of this town that the town would rather forget, and the sins of the past come back to haunt them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Fog clip: \u003c/strong>Where’s the fog now? Well, it should be right outside my door now. Well, there’s something different about this fog. Dan, stay away from the door!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I always kind of regarded this movie as like a kind of oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies. It’s absolutely in the yearly rotation. This movie was made on the heels of Halloween, like John Carpenter’s Halloween, so that was a huge success and just was a bit of a whoop when it came out. Everyone was just like, well, scary fog, what’s going on? It is set in the fictional California coastal town of Antonio Bay, but that is actually the Stinson Beach, Point Reyes area. So there is so much wonderful local photography, places that you can just go to and be like, yes, one-to-one, I match that with the fog. The lighthouse is probably the one that everyone thinks about automatically. It’s called Spivey Point in the movie, but that’s actually the Point Reyes lighthouse. And there’s also incredible shots of Point Reyes station in Olayma. And there was a point I love in the movie when there’s just been a big scare in a morgue. And night starts to fall and you’re like, oh no, it’s all gonna kick off. And as kind of a bridge into the nightfall, there are these gorgeous dusky shots of like that part of the coastline, there’s like forests, it’s just incredible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> And horrifying. I’m always shocked that this movie isn’t mentioned more among carpenters, oeuvres, among horror movies. It’s scary, and it’s local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> It’s so scary and it’s a cozy classic as well, it’s just so evocative of the fall to me and ugh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fog has gotten too cute. We’ve got Carl the Fog, we’re like wearing all these little foggy t-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> What a movie, everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And who doesn’t want to watch fog while you’re curled up under a blanket? Ok, The Fog. Going on the list. Peter, you have another offering for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, The Lost Boys, 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>You’ll never grow old, Michael. And you’ll never die. Be one of us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Joel Schumacher, who really got started with his 80s movies, with St. Elmo’s Fire, two bad Batman movies, and right in between, he kind of reinvented the vampire film to make it kind of a Peter Pan thing, really focused on teenage angst. We’ve got Kiefer Sutherland, we’ve got both Corey’s, Haim and Feldman, and they’re in Santa Cruz. They’re in a small town. New kids in town realize that this town might have some vampires in them, bond with some dorky vampire hunters. Go to the beach boardwalk, go to Atlantis Fantasy World, the comic book store. And I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town. There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure … Um, there’s a Chinese food that turns into maggots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>Guess first, how about those maggots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>You Jamie Gertz is the love interest. Just a completely 80s, over the top, fantastic to watch with as many people as possible. Every once in a while, they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz. I think that’s the best time to do it. But I just love this film, and it has aged in this way that Joel Schumacher was an adult in the 80s. He wasn’t a kid, but he really, really seemed to love that teen culture because he really captured it well. And it’s like going back to a place I wasn’t sure I wanted to go back to, but, uh, enjoyable film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Great music. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Excellent music. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I love it. It’s got that like, the kids have got to take on the vampires because no one else will DNA with Fright Night as well, which is nice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So you can pick your monster and the era. Birds in the 60s. Fog in the 70s/80s era. Or Vampires in the 1980s… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What about the 90s? We got a movie recommendation from a listener slash KQED colleague that fits the bill … Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabe Meline:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s Gabe Meline, senior editor of Arts and Culture at KQED. Let’s talk about Scream, the classic high school slasher movie that’s a meta-commentary on every other horror movie before it. Scream was filmed in the North Bay. Healdsburg, Sonoma, Tomales, and what I like about it, also filmed in my hometown of Santa Rosa. In fact, in the end credits, you will see a curious note. It reads, no thanks whatsoever to the Santa Rosa City School District Governing Board. That’s because director Wes Craven originally had an agreement to shoot the high school scenes at Santa Rosa High School. That is, until pearl-clutching parents caught word that a horror movie was being filmed at their kid’s school, and they got the ear of the school board, who called for a delay in filming. Wes Cravin threatened to, quote, sue their asses, a quote that appeared on the front page of the local paper, and he went out to Sonoma to film the high-school scenes at the Sonoma Community Center. Every time that credit comes up, students from Santa Rosa High School always roll their eyes and laugh to themselves about what could have been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We will be back in just a minute with more recommendations from Carly Severn and Peter Hartlaub, but first a brief intermission. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re back talking scary Bay Area movies. One listener, Kai Ando from Foster City, had this recommendation for us… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>2011’s Contagion it’s the movie I think a lot of us saw during the COVID pandemic because of the eerie similarities that the plot had with the reality that we were all living in during\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Contagion Clip: \u003c/strong>pandemic. The average person touches their face three to five times every waking minute. In between, we’re touching doorknobs, water fountains, and each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>Jude Law’s character lives in San Francisco as a conspiracy theorist, I believe, who spreads misinformation and panic. I specifically remember his character walking around this trashed barren landscape of a San Francisco street in full hazmat suits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Peter, Carly, any thoughts on Contagion?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Filmed in the Chronicle newsroom and speaking of hazmat suits, the desk, Benny Evangelista’s desk was specifically chosen because it was so messy, which is very much, usually in journalism movies I get angry because everybody’s desks are too clean, but they leaned into it. Our newsroom is as messy as those streets when the garbage stops getting collected. Great film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Contagion, good movie, it’s Stephen Soderbergh, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Stephen Soderbergh, you have to have an experienced director, and spoiler for a 2011 movie, kill Gwyneth Paltrow off in like the first 12 seconds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> That’s their psycho moment as well, where it’s like, oh, you thought Gwyneth was going to be in this movie? Guess again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We just need to hear it for the publicity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> My next movie I want to recommend is called Burnt Offerings, which is 1976, and it is filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, which a big old neoclassical, this sprawling mansion and grounds that was built in I think 1899. And this movie’s great. I’d seen it once, I re-watched it for this and I think it’s genuinely great now. It’s got this killer cast, it’s got Oliver Reed, it has got Karen Black, Bette Davis in I believe her last ever movie role. It is one of those lovely family moves into a clearly quite scary house and stuff starts happening to them. And it’s so upsetting because they set up the family so well in the first five or ten minutes that this family loves each other, they banter with each other. And then seeing what happens and how the house starts to affect them is, it’s, yeah, it just kind of gets under your skin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> There’s this iconic scene in the house’s pool … where Oliver Reed is playing with his son, but it keeps getting rougher and rougher until he’s basically drowning him. Meanwhile his aunt, Bette Davis’ character, is anxiously watching from land, not quite sure how to intervene.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Burnt Offerings clip: \u003c/strong>All right now, you two. That’s quite enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>It’s not a haunted house movie, there’s no possessions, there is no, did you hear that sound? A lot of it is filmed in the daylight. It’s all about the effect that the house has on this family and what it starts making them do and the location itself. It was featured in another classic 1980s horror movie, Phantasm. It’s so evocative the fact that it’s really dilapidated as part of the point when they arrive and the house starts to kind of regenerate themselves as it’s feeding off literally you know the fresh blood of the family. If you haven’t seen it, really check it out. It’s pretty great. Oliver Reed is one big ham sandwich, which is how I like my Oliver Reed. Bette Davis is great and really sparky and what happens to her character is again quite genuinely upsetting. Yeah, this movie rules. Everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I should mention here Bay Curious has done an episode on the Dunsmuir House — worth a listen if you want to learn more. Unfortunately right now the house is closed to the public because, quite honestly, it’s in rough shape.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> When I saw the beginning of the movie, when it looks so dilapidated, that’s kind of like where it’s going now, unfortunately. I think a lot of people are sounding the alarm in the local community about this place being allowed to slip into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Peter, what do you have next for us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Pacific Heights, 1990 movie, which I like to call Petrero Hill because not a single frame of it is filmed in Pacific Heights. It’s actually the house in Pacific Heights is about three blocks from where we’re sitting in Potrero Hill. 1990 film that dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws. Matthew Modine and Melanie Griffith are moving into what looks like a fixer upper Victorian in Pacific Heights, a lot of things wrong with that, $750,000 and they’re going to rent a studio and a one bedroom and just try to make the narrow margins of home ownership and San Francisco work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Terrifying \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Terrifying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yeah my spine is tingling \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Michael Keaton pulls up in a Porsche and just seals himself in a room and just becomes the tenant from hell, cockroaches are involved, multiple identities are involved and Michael Keaton is so good in this. We’ve got to remember this is right after Batman. This is in his Mr. Mom era. He was not doing these, you know villainous roles and kind of what sort of a B movie and he is so good in this. He is so evil. He’s done things like this since, but at the time this was a real shock. And John Schlesinger is the director. He directed Midnight Cowboy Marathon Man. He’s kind of slumming it in this film, but you get the feeling he just wanted to do a Hitchcock film and it feels a little bit like a lost B movie Hitchcock film in all the best ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Do you think casting Melanie Griffith is a nod to that since Tippi Hedren is her mom?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. And Tippi Hedren, Melanie Griffith’s mother, has a short cameo in this film that I’m not even sure if it’s credited, but she’s in it very, very briefly. So, no, very clearly this director was a big Hitchcock fan and probably a big The Birds and Vertigo fan because there’s feelings throughout.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Peter, I’m so glad you brought Pacific Heights because we don’t talk about Pacific Heights enough as a society. It’s such a relic of a specific time. Michael Keaton is my guy. One of my very first crushes, I think, as Batman. And yeah, this movie is just really fun and like very San Francisco centric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Much like the game, David Fincher’s The Game, it takes place right before the city really shifted from kind of the old money to the tech money. So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, Carly, well onto your third and final recommendation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> OK, so I know we discussed this movie on our previous movie podcast. I just have to bring it again. It’s Zodiac. I think it’s the scariest movie ever set and filmed in and around the San Francisco Bay Area. It is based on the true story of the still unsolved Zodiac murders in the 60s and 70s. This movie is just fantastic. I could watch it I think every year for the rest of my life. It was David Fincher. Well, Lake Berryessa scene, which recreates one of the murders, it is one of the very few scenes I just am unable to watch. I will always go and do something else. I will walk away from the screen and go and make like a cup of tea or use the bathroom. I physically cannot watch that scene. And I love my horror movies and that one just gets under my skin. It is too upsetting. And it’s all in broad daylight as well. Just a real example of broad daylight horror. Yeah, and just all these other little locations sprinkled throughout. There’s Geary outside, I think it’s the Tony Rembey Theater, ACT Theater, where the Zodiac Killer hails the cab that he then gets into that takes him to the intersection of Washington and Cherry Streets where another murder takes place. But I got to say my favorite location for this movie is not actually real. It is the gorgeous CGI rendering, the time lapse of the Transamerica pyramid being built to the sound of Marvin Gaye’s inner city blues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>It’s such a great scene. The visual effects are seamless there. Yeah, I mean, you listen to a song on the Zodiac soundtrack and it brings you back there. That’s a special, special kind of soundtrack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>How that movie just manages the passage of time as well. Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders and eventually just, they run out of time. It’s too late. The chief suspect is dead. Yeah, what a movie. If you haven’t seen Zodiac, just come watch it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And any update on the Zodiac killer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I know you guys are still working on it, right? So we have a Zodiac beat writer. It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job. It was Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and then now it’s been passed on to a couple other people. Kevin thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in, of course. It’s not over. And people, when they did tours of the 901 Mission Chronicle site, would always say, I wanna see the Zodiac stuff. And my answer was always, it’s an active case. All of the stuff that the Zodiac sent is still at the Hall of Justice in San Francisco. This case is not solved. So, yeah, amazing piece of our history that continues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we did say at the top you each could bring three, but there was one more that just can’t be left out. Initially we thought we’d leave it out because we talked about it before, but it just can’t be helped… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah and this would be number one on the list if we hadn’t talked about it before. Invasion of the Body Snatchers is just so stellar. One of the best uses of locations in San Francisco. Terrifying. City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. Painted Ladies, but you don’t even know that they are the Painted Ladies. It’s one of the ones on the end just a very terrifying film of the city getting taken over, but are you paranoid or is it really happening? And I’ve watched it probably 10 times. I think it’s one of the best San Francisco films, maybe the most underrated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Well, and I love that all these recommendations, because they are set in the Bay Area, to me that makes them more real, more believable somehow, because you’re not just watching something that takes place in an abstract city that you’ve maybe never been to, or you don’t even know what it is, maybe it doesn’t even have a name, but when you’re seeing these places on film that you recognize that you’re been to somehow it makes everything else that’s painted on top of those backgrounds feel more real which is scary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Super special to watch as well there’s just something about that like tactility which as a viewer let your brain just goes it just feels great\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>These are some fantastic recommendations I cannot wait to tuck in and watch them. Just to recap, we talked about The Birds, The Fog, Lost Boys, Scream, Contagion, Burnt Offerings, Pacific Heights, Zodiac and Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You’ve got 5 weeks until Halloween, how many can you see? Peter Hartlob, Culture Critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. What’s the best way that people can kind of keep up with what you’re doing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Subscribe to The Chronicle or whatever station or publication that you love, but I’m in The Chronicle all the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Carly Severn, senior editor of audience news here at KQED. What about you? You got some spooky stuff going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> We do. Our desk does explainers and guides. You can see it all at KQED.org slash explainers. And while we do a lot of serious stuff, we also like to have fun too. So we have a lot of spooky season explainers, and guides coming up, including a guide to the North Bay’s historic cemeteries that you can replicate the tour, a guide to immersive experiences around the Bay Area. And for all you history nerds, we have a guide to the Spooky Feeling History Tours you can embark on too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thank you both so much. This has been such a fun morning and I can’t wait to watch some of these films. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from, and everyone on team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a spooky one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As longtime locals and film obsessives, we’ll admit our bias up front: the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area\u003c/a> puts on a masterclass in horror atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As longtime locals and film obsessives, we’ll admit our bias up front: the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area\u003c/a> puts on a masterclass in horror atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Alongside the postcard views is a landscape engineered for suspense. Thick fog strips visibility to zero without warning. Hilly terrain turns every curve into a blind leap. And hanging over it all is the eerie geography of being at the edge of the continent — on the precipice of the deep, freezing Pacific.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Alongside the postcard views is a landscape engineered for suspense. Thick fog strips visibility to zero without warning. Hilly terrain turns every curve into a blind leap. And hanging over it all is the eerie geography of being at the edge of the continent — on the precipice of the deep, freezing Pacific.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s why we put together this list of our favorite scary movies filmed in the Bay Area. Spend spooky season with local thrills you may not know. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s why we put together this list of our favorite scary movies filmed in the Bay Area. Spend spooky season with local thrills you may not know. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m9c0gBgh6c\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080749/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Local legend tells of a ship lured onto the rocks of Antonio Bay being enveloped by a supernatural cloud as it sank; the myth says that when this mysterious fog returns, the victims will rise up from the depths seeking vengeance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Peep scenic North Bay locations like Stinson Beach and Point Reyes in this oft-overlooked John Carpenter film made on the heels of his smash hit, Halloween. In the film, the Point Reyes Lighthouse was chosen as the headquarters of K.A.B. radio, a central location in the film. It happens to be one of the windiest and foggiest places in North America — so the ambiance for this horror film was ready-made. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Peep scenic North Bay locations like Stinson Beach and Point Reyes in this oft-overlooked John Carpenter film made on the heels of his smash hit, Halloween. In the film, the Point Reyes Lighthouse was chosen as the headquarters of K.A.B. radio, a central location in the film. It happens to be one of the windiest and foggiest places in North America — so the ambiance for this horror film was ready-made. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s a cozy classic as well,” KQED’s Carly Severn said. “It’s just so evocative of the fall to me. I always regarded this movie as an oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s a cozy classic as well,” KQED’s Carly Severn said. “It’s just so evocative of the fall to me. I always regarded this movie as an oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Plus, we love to see our eternal weather pattern cast in a spooky light.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Fog has gotten too cute,” said Peter Hartlaub, culture critic with the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>. “There’s Karl the Fog. We’re wearing all these little foggy T-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Fog has gotten too cute,” said Peter Hartlaub, culture critic with the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>. “There’s Karl the Fog. We’re wearing all these little foggy T-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077745/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> When strange seeds drift to Earth from space, mysterious pods begin to grow and invade San Francisco, replicating the city’s residents one body at a time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077745/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> When strange seeds drift to Earth from space, mysterious pods begin to grow and invade San Francisco, replicating the city’s residents one body at a time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> If you want a horror film with a strong sense of San Francisco, this one is tough to beat. “One of the best uses of locations,” Hartlaub said. “City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. The Painted Ladies.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> If you want a horror film with a strong sense of San Francisco, this one is tough to beat. “One of the best uses of locations,” Hartlaub said. “City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. The Painted Ladies.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Nearly every scene feels like San Francisco — even the interior shots. Plus, the old-school special effects are straight up \u003cem>creepy\u003c/em> in a way CGI just can’t touch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Nearly every scene feels like San Francisco — even the interior shots. Plus, the old-school special effects are straight up \u003cem>creepy\u003c/em> in a way CGI just can’t touch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCxR7dlavwg\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056869/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20birds\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A wealthy San Francisco socialite follows a potential boyfriend to a small Northern California town that slowly takes a turn toward the bizarre when birds of all kinds suddenly begin to attack people.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056869/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20birds\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A wealthy San Francisco socialite follows a potential boyfriend to a small Northern California town that slowly takes a turn toward the bizarre when birds of all kinds suddenly begin to attack people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> Look, it just doesn’t get more “classic Bay Area horror film” than \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em>. Alfred Hitchcock is one of cinema’s greatest, and he delivers in this nature-strikes-back film. The movie starts in Union Square in downtown San Francisco, but spends most of its time in the North Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> Look, it just doesn’t get more “classic Bay Area horror film” than \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em>. Alfred Hitchcock is one of cinema’s greatest, and he delivers in this nature-strikes-back film. The movie starts in Union Square in downtown San Francisco, but spends most of its time in the North Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green pencil skirt,” Hartlaub said. “She falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green pencil skirt,” Hartlaub said. “She falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrqsdlgqCw\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"text": "The Lost Boys (1987)",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093437/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20lost%20boys\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>When a recently divorced mother and her two teenage boys move to a coastal town to stay with her father, it doesn’t take long for the brothers to realize the area is a haven for something much more sinister than party-going surfers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Santa Cruz may technically be beyond the nine-county Bay Area, but spiritually it feels the part. The Santa Cruz Boardwalk and surrounding area are core to the film and help underscore the film’s 1980s teenage nostalgia. Atlantis Fantasyworld Comic Book Shop plays a central role, too. Every once in a while they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz, which is absolutely the most primo way to watch it.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of being a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town,” Hartlaub said. “There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure, there’s Chinese food that turns into maggots.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Santa Cruz may technically be beyond the nine-county Bay Area, but spiritually it feels the part. The Santa Cruz Boardwalk and surrounding area are core to the film and help underscore the film’s 1980s teenage nostalgia. Atlantis Fantasyworld Comic Book Shop plays a central role, too. Every once in a while they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz, which is absolutely the most primo way to watch it.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of being a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town,” Hartlaub said. “There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure, there’s Chinese food that turns into maggots.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Chilling!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Chilling!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNncHPl1UXg\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"text": "Zodiac (2007)",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Zodiac\u003c/em> (2007)\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443706/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Between 1968 and 1983, a San Francisco cartoonist becomes an amateur detective obsessed with tracking down the Zodiac Killer, an unidentified individual who terrorizes Northern California with a killing spree.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443706/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Between 1968 and 1983, a San Francisco cartoonist becomes an amateur detective obsessed with tracking down the Zodiac Killer, an unidentified individual who terrorizes Northern California with a killing spree.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It’s not just one of the best scary movies set in the Bay Area; we’d argue it’s one of the best Bay Area movies, period. It should be on anybody’s watch list who has moved to San Francisco because it’s based on a true story — so you’ll learn some local history too!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It’s not just one of the best scary movies set in the Bay Area; we’d argue it’s one of the best Bay Area movies, period. It should be on anybody’s watch list who has moved to San Francisco because it’s based on a true story — so you’ll learn some local history too!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the film, you’ll spot familiar sites like Original Joe’s, San Francisco City Hall, Lake Berryessa and ACT Theatre. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> newsroom scenes were shot on a soundstage in Hollywood, but the set is so darn close to reality, we’ll count it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the film, you’ll spot familiar sites like Original Joe’s, San Francisco City Hall, Lake Berryessa and ACT Theatre. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> newsroom scenes were shot on a soundstage in Hollywood, but the set is so darn close to reality, we’ll count it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“How the movie manages the passage of time is so interesting,” Severn said. “Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“How the movie manages the passage of time is so interesting,” Severn said. “Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though decades have passed since the real-life murders took place, \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> still has a reporter assigned to updates on the Zodiac killer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though decades have passed since the real-life murders took place, \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> still has a reporter assigned to updates on the Zodiac killer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job,” Hartlaub said. “It was [reporter] Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and he thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in … it’s not over.\u003cem>”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job,” Hartlaub said. “It was [reporter] Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and he thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in … it’s not over.\u003cem>”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JidGAt7zXT0\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"text": "Pacific Heights (1990)",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100318/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_2_nm_0_in_0_q_pacific%20heights\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Drake and Patty purchase a San Francisco Victorian hoping to fund their future through rental income. Their stability collapses when Carter Hayes occupies the studio, weaponizing tenant laws to drain their finances and sanity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100318/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_2_nm_0_in_0_q_pacific%20heights\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Drake and Patty purchase a San Francisco Victorian hoping to fund their future through rental income. Their stability collapses when Carter Hayes occupies the studio, weaponizing tenant laws to drain their finances and sanity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>OK, this film should have been called “Potrero Hill” because that’s where it was nearly entirely filmed. “And it dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws,” Hartlaub said. But we’ll overlook both those details because there are so many other things to love about this film.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Director John Schlesinger clearly drew inspiration from Alfred Hitchcock’s \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Vertigo\u003c/em> because there are callbacks throughout the film — including casting Melanie Griffith, the daughter of \u003cem>The Birds’\u003c/em> star Tippi Hedren. And Hedren makes a brief wordless cameo herself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>OK, this film should have been called “Potrero Hill” because that’s where it was nearly entirely filmed. “And it dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws,” Hartlaub said. But we’ll overlook both those details because there are so many other things to love about this film.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Director John Schlesinger clearly drew inspiration from Alfred Hitchcock’s \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Vertigo\u003c/em> because there are callbacks throughout the film — including casting Melanie Griffith, the daughter of \u003cem>The Birds’\u003c/em> star Tippi Hedren. And Hedren makes a brief wordless cameo herself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Much like David Fincher’s \u003cem>The Game\u003c/em>, it takes place right before the city really shifted from the old money to the tech money,” Hartlaub said. “So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Much like David Fincher’s \u003cem>The Game\u003c/em>, it takes place right before the city really shifted from the old money to the tech money,” Hartlaub said. “So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmINBAFhveM\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"text": "Burnt Offerings (1976)",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074258/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A family moves into a large old mansion in the countryside which seems to have a mysterious and sinister power over its new residents.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074258/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A family moves into a large old mansion in the countryside which seems to have a mysterious and sinister power over its new residents.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It was filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, a large neoclassical mansion that dates back to 1899. The house is a gem of real estate in the Bay Area in many ways, though it has fallen into disrepair in recent decades. \u003ca href=\"https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/restore-the-dunsmuir-hellman-historic-estate-protect-oaklands-most-storied-mansion\">Grassroots efforts are underway\u003c/a> to try to urge the City of Oakland to take action.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Burnt Offerings is a scary house movie, but not in the haunted sense you might expect. There are no ghosts, creaking doors or jump scares. This film is all about the sinister way the people who live inside the house start acting.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“In the first five or 10 minutes, they set up that this family loves each other; they banter with each other,” Severn said. “And then seeing how the house starts to affect them. It just kind of gets under your skin.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It was filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, a large neoclassical mansion that dates back to 1899. The house is a gem of real estate in the Bay Area in many ways, though it has fallen into disrepair in recent decades. \u003ca href=\"https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/restore-the-dunsmuir-hellman-historic-estate-protect-oaklands-most-storied-mansion\">Grassroots efforts are underway\u003c/a> to try to urge the City of Oakland to take action.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Burnt Offerings is a scary house movie, but not in the haunted sense you might expect. There are no ghosts, creaking doors or jump scares. This film is all about the sinister way the people who live inside the house start acting.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“In the first five or 10 minutes, they set up that this family loves each other; they banter with each other,” Severn said. “And then seeing how the house starts to affect them. It just kind of gets under your skin.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This one also has an awesome cast, including Oliver Reed and Bette Davis in her final role. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sYSyuuLk5g\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"text": "Contagion (2011) ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1598778/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Healthcare professionals, government officials and everyday people find themselves in the midst of a pandemic as the CDC works to find a cure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1598778/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Healthcare professionals, government officials and everyday people find themselves in the midst of a pandemic as the CDC works to find a cure.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>San Francisco features heavily in this thriller that had us all wondering during the COVID-19 pandemic: “Did they know this was coming?” Locals will spot scenes set in North Beach, outside Bill Graham Civic Auditorium and inside Candlestick Park (RIP!). \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>San Francisco features heavily in this thriller that had us all wondering during the COVID-19 pandemic: “Did they know this was coming?” Locals will spot scenes set in North Beach, outside Bill Graham Civic Auditorium and inside Candlestick Park (RIP!). \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This recommendation came from Bay Curious listener Kai Ando, who had this to say about it: “Because I watched it during the COVID pandemic and because it was set in the Bay … I think it stuck with me pretty deeply and even afterwards.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This recommendation came from Bay Curious listener Kai Ando, who had this to say about it: “Because I watched it during the COVID pandemic and because it was set in the Bay … I think it stuck with me pretty deeply and even afterwards.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Did we leave out one of your favorites? Let us know by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Did we leave out one of your favorites? Let us know by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you’ve been following Bay Curious over the years, you may have detected by now that Halloween is my favorite holiday, and it’s not even close. I think part of my obsession is the changing of the season, of course, from the go-go-go of summer to the, you know, cup of tea vibes we get in early fall. And I feel like during trick-or-treating, the streets of our neighborhoods come alive like no other time of year, all packed with excited kids, adults laughing with each other. And teenagers in the shadows doing whatever it is teenagers do. And of course, the costumes. Now I love an elaborate something that takes weeks of planning, multiple trips to the craft store and several late nights to come together. But to get into the spirit this year, I am feeling called to the couch. It’s been a busy summer and I’m ready to just sit and chill a little bit and watch some scary movies. As is my inclination, perhaps obsession, I figure I may as well make them Bay Area scary movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you’ve been following Bay Curious over the years, you may have detected by now that Halloween is my favorite holiday, and it’s not even close. I think part of my obsession is the changing of the season, of course, from the go-go-go of summer to the, you know, cup of tea vibes we get in early fall. And I feel like during trick-or-treating, the streets of our neighborhoods come alive like no other time of year, all packed with excited kids, adults laughing with each other. And teenagers in the shadows doing whatever it is teenagers do. And of course, the costumes. Now I love an elaborate something that takes weeks of planning, multiple trips to the craft store and several late nights to come together. But to get into the spirit this year, I am feeling called to the couch. It’s been a busy summer and I’m ready to just sit and chill a little bit and watch some scary movies. As is my inclination, perhaps obsession, I figure I may as well make them Bay Area scary movies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So as I was creating my watch list, I decided to call my two most trusted friends when it comes to all things Bay Area film and ask them, “What should we be watching this spooky season?” So here to offer their top recommendations are Carly Severn, KQED’s senior editor of Audience News. Hey, Carly.\u003cbr> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So as I was creating my watch list, I decided to call my two most trusted friends when it comes to all things Bay Area film and ask them, “What should we be watching this spooky season?” So here to offer their top recommendations are Carly Severn, KQED’s senior editor of Audience News. Hey, Carly.\u003cbr> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Hello Olivia, the calls are coming from inside the house.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ahhh, they are. Spoiler alert, we’re all sitting around one table. And Peter Hartlaub, San Francisco Chronicle’s Culture Critic. Welcome, Peter.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ahhh, they are. Spoiler alert, we’re all sitting around one table. And Peter Hartlaub, San Francisco Chronicle’s Culture Critic. Welcome, Peter.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I am so glad to be back with you all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I am so glad to be back with you all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yay! I’m glad you’re saying ‘glad to be back’ because this is getting the gang back together because a few years ago, this same trio, we made an episode around Christmas time with your recommendations for Bay Area movies at the request of a listener, but today we’re back with a spooky twist on the theme and I couldn’t be more excited.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Oh we’re like the killer that just won’t die. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yay! I’m glad you’re saying ‘glad to be back’ because this is getting the gang back together because a few years ago, this same trio, we made an episode around Christmas time with your recommendations for Bay Area movies at the request of a listener, but today we’re back with a spooky twist on the theme and I couldn’t be more excited.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Oh we’re like the killer that just won’t die. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before we get into your recs, I want to establish your credentials as people who know scary things. So I’ve got a quick list of warm up questions, and I’m looking for quick and punchy answers here. Are you ready?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before we get into your recs, I want to establish your credentials as people who know scary things. So I’ve got a quick list of warm up questions, and I’m looking for quick and punchy answers here. Are you ready?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Ready.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I’m ready.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, starting with you. Best Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Mini Twix or Mini Snickers, no question.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mini?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I love a little fun size because then you can eat 5,000 of them.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wonderful. Peter, favorite Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Mini Twix or Mini Snickers, no question.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mini?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I love a little fun size because then you can eat 5,000 of them.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wonderful. Peter, favorite Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fun-size Heath bar. And here’s the thing, the people giving away the full-size candy bar often are so wealthy you have to walk way up the path and you’re getting less candy overall so hot tip the fun size is OK.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fun-size Heath bar. And here’s the thing, the people giving away the full-size candy bar often are so wealthy you have to walk way up the path and you’re getting less candy overall so hot tip the fun size is OK.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about worst Halloween candy? What do you get and you just groan? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>What’s that corn thing?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Candy corn?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Candy corn, yeah. Horrible. Get it off the planet.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Oh my God, I love candy corn. I’m sorry. This recording is over.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I’ll see myself out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>What’s that corn thing?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Candy corn?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Candy corn, yeah. Horrible. Get it off the planet.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Oh my God, I love candy corn. I’m sorry. This recording is over.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I’ll see myself out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>This is like black licorice. This is a very, very controversial one. I’m going with those black and orange wrapped up little peanut butter toffee things that always end up in the bottom of your kid’s Halloween bag after you’ve stolen all of the rest of their candy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>This is like black licorice. This is a very, very controversial one. I’m going with those black and orange wrapped up little peanut butter toffee things that always end up in the bottom of your kid’s Halloween bag after you’ve stolen all of the rest of their candy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that toffee shows up in both your favorite and least favorite candies though.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that toffee shows up in both your favorite and least favorite candies though.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Yes, there’s good and bad toffee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about the place in the Bay Area you would be most afraid to spend the night by yourself?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about the place in the Bay Area you would be most afraid to spend the night by yourself?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I had to think about this, because I think there’s some haunted hotel rooms, but I think I’d kind of be into that in a sort of 1408 way. So I decided Golden Gate Park, because the lighting there is not good, and what if I cannot find my way out?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I had to think about this, because I think there’s some haunted hotel rooms, but I think I’d kind of be into that in a sort of 1408 way. So I decided Golden Gate Park, because the lighting there is not good, and what if I cannot find my way out?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so you’re afraid of getting lost?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I am.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so you’re afraid of getting lost?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I am.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Peter, what about you? I’m afraid of heights, so the top of Sutro Tower, which in addition to being super scary from a heights point of view, has a haunted elevator going up. I’ve been on it. It’s … we don’t wanna talk about it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Peter, what about you? I’m afraid of heights, so the top of Sutro Tower, which in addition to being super scary from a heights point of view, has a haunted elevator going up. I’ve been on it. It’s … we don’t wanna talk about it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, and what about … oh, this is my favorite question actually, the favorite costume you’ve ever worn. I’m going to Peter first for this one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, and what about … oh, this is my favorite question actually, the favorite costume you’ve ever worn. I’m going to Peter first for this one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I made a Gandalf costume for my son that had a light up staff and I loved it so much that I altered it and wore it myself two years later.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I made a Gandalf costume for my son that had a light up staff and I loved it so much that I altered it and wore it myself two years later.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Nice. How old was he at the time?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Nice. How old was he at the time?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>He was seven and didn’t know who Gandalf was. This was strictly performative parenting, but I did have him slamming it on the ground and saying, ‘you shall not pass.’ Really entertaining.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>He was seven and didn’t know who Gandalf was. This was strictly performative parenting, but I did have him slamming it on the ground and saying, ‘you shall not pass.’ Really entertaining.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> The parental equivalent of making your kid wear the Ramones t-shirt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Very much so, yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Very much so, yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I feel personally attacked by that. Carly, what about you?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I feel personally attacked by that. Carly, what about you?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I made a really good Shelley Duvall from The Shining, but I think a couple of years previous I was Pris, the Daryl Hannah robot character from Blade Runner, and I looked fine, I’m just going to say.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I made a really good Shelley Duvall from The Shining, but I think a couple of years previous I was Pris, the Daryl Hannah robot character from Blade Runner, and I looked fine, I’m just going to say.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> No, no, it’s a long time and you can boast about yourself if it’s a long time ago. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What do you think makes the Bay Area such a good background for a horror film?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What do you think makes the Bay Area such a good background for a horror film?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I think there are two things that elevate the Bay Area over a lot of other cities. The climate and the topography. And with climate, the fog, what is scarier than that? What could come through the fog? Constantly changing unpredictable weather I think is scarier than being in Los Angeles and oh, it’s 70 degrees again. Topography, you’re going over the hill. What’s gonna be over that hill? It’s kind of, there’s this living element to … Exploring a city and not knowing what’s going to be around the next curve, not knowing what’s gonna be over the next hill and I think those two things sort of like become characters in some of these films that we’re going to discuss today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I think there are two things that elevate the Bay Area over a lot of other cities. The climate and the topography. And with climate, the fog, what is scarier than that? What could come through the fog? Constantly changing unpredictable weather I think is scarier than being in Los Angeles and oh, it’s 70 degrees again. Topography, you’re going over the hill. What’s gonna be over that hill? It’s kind of, there’s this living element to … Exploring a city and not knowing what’s going to be around the next curve, not knowing what’s gonna be over the next hill and I think those two things sort of like become characters in some of these films that we’re going to discuss today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Completely agree. And I think a lot about this patch of the West Coast as well, that it can have that end of the line feeling. You have gone as far west as you can and now there is just a great expanse of nothing, the Pacific Ocean. There’s also a history as well. The Golden State literally built on wealth accumulated during the gold rush. And you always wonder, like, what’s behind that? Too good to be true. What are the real stories behind that, what are the darker hidden histories behind that? And that’s something that- I think a lot of Bay Area-set horror movies, either directly or indirectly, are also wrestling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Completely agree. And I think a lot about this patch of the West Coast as well, that it can have that end of the line feeling. You have gone as far west as you can and now there is just a great expanse of nothing, the Pacific Ocean. There’s also a history as well. The Golden State literally built on wealth accumulated during the gold rush. And you always wonder, like, what’s behind that? Too good to be true. What are the real stories behind that, what are the darker hidden histories behind that? And that’s something that- I think a lot of Bay Area-set horror movies, either directly or indirectly, are also wrestling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music transition\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So let’s get onto the main business for today, your scary movie recommendations. Now, I had each of you come with three recommendations, and then we also have one from a Bay Curious listener who responded to a call out. So let us delay no longer and get to it. Peter, I’m gonna start with you. What is the first movie you would recommend?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So let’s get onto the main business for today, your scary movie recommendations. Now, I had each of you come with three recommendations, and then we also have one from a Bay Curious listener who responded to a call out. So let us delay no longer and get to it. Peter, I’m gonna start with you. What is the first movie you would recommend?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds. So The Birds is a 1963 film starring Tippi Hedren as a little bit of a socialite, starts in Union Square at a Union Square pet shop. I’m trying to figure out where it was. I think it’s where the Disney store is now. Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green kind of pencil skirt, falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them, quickly turns into a horror film.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds. So The Birds is a 1963 film starring Tippi Hedren as a little bit of a socialite, starts in Union Square at a Union Square pet shop. I’m trying to figure out where it was. I think it’s where the Disney store is now. Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green kind of pencil skirt, falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them, quickly turns into a horror film.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Birds clip:\u003c/strong> I want you to go as quietly as possible. Do not make a sound until I tell you to run. Then run as quickly as you can. Now does everybody understand? Yes, sir. All right, John, you lead the way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Birds clip:\u003c/strong> I want you to go as quietly as possible. Do not make a sound until I tell you to run. Then run as quickly as you can. Now does everybody understand? Yes, sir. All right, John, you lead the way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Where everyone from school children to people in a diner are trying to survive this attack of all the birds in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Where everyone from school children to people in a diner are trying to survive this attack of all the birds in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, what is your first recommendation? My first recommendation is The Fog by John Carpenter, which is about a town on the Northern California coast that is about to celebrate its 100th anniversary. And 100 years ago, something happened off the waters of this town that the town would rather forget, and the sins of the past come back to haunt them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, what is your first recommendation? My first recommendation is The Fog by John Carpenter, which is about a town on the Northern California coast that is about to celebrate its 100th anniversary. And 100 years ago, something happened off the waters of this town that the town would rather forget, and the sins of the past come back to haunt them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Fog clip: \u003c/strong>Where’s the fog now? Well, it should be right outside my door now. Well, there’s something different about this fog. Dan, stay away from the door!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I always kind of regarded this movie as like a kind of oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies. It’s absolutely in the yearly rotation. This movie was made on the heels of Halloween, like John Carpenter’s Halloween, so that was a huge success and just was a bit of a whoop when it came out. Everyone was just like, well, scary fog, what’s going on? It is set in the fictional California coastal town of Antonio Bay, but that is actually the Stinson Beach, Point Reyes area. So there is so much wonderful local photography, places that you can just go to and be like, yes, one-to-one, I match that with the fog. The lighthouse is probably the one that everyone thinks about automatically. It’s called Spivey Point in the movie, but that’s actually the Point Reyes lighthouse. And there’s also incredible shots of Point Reyes station in Olayma. And there was a point I love in the movie when there’s just been a big scare in a morgue. And night starts to fall and you’re like, oh no, it’s all gonna kick off. And as kind of a bridge into the nightfall, there are these gorgeous dusky shots of like that part of the coastline, there’s like forests, it’s just incredible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I always kind of regarded this movie as like a kind of oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies. It’s absolutely in the yearly rotation. This movie was made on the heels of Halloween, like John Carpenter’s Halloween, so that was a huge success and just was a bit of a whoop when it came out. Everyone was just like, well, scary fog, what’s going on? It is set in the fictional California coastal town of Antonio Bay, but that is actually the Stinson Beach, Point Reyes area. So there is so much wonderful local photography, places that you can just go to and be like, yes, one-to-one, I match that with the fog. The lighthouse is probably the one that everyone thinks about automatically. It’s called Spivey Point in the movie, but that’s actually the Point Reyes lighthouse. And there’s also incredible shots of Point Reyes station in Olayma. And there was a point I love in the movie when there’s just been a big scare in a morgue. And night starts to fall and you’re like, oh no, it’s all gonna kick off. And as kind of a bridge into the nightfall, there are these gorgeous dusky shots of like that part of the coastline, there’s like forests, it’s just incredible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> And horrifying. I’m always shocked that this movie isn’t mentioned more among carpenters, oeuvres, among horror movies. It’s scary, and it’s local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> And horrifying. I’m always shocked that this movie isn’t mentioned more among carpenters, oeuvres, among horror movies. It’s scary, and it’s local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> It’s so scary and it’s a cozy classic as well, it’s just so evocative of the fall to me and ugh.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> It’s so scary and it’s a cozy classic as well, it’s just so evocative of the fall to me and ugh.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fog has gotten too cute. We’ve got Carl the Fog, we’re like wearing all these little foggy t-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fog has gotten too cute. We’ve got Carl the Fog, we’re like wearing all these little foggy t-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> What a movie, everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> What a movie, everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And who doesn’t want to watch fog while you’re curled up under a blanket? Ok, The Fog. Going on the list. Peter, you have another offering for us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And who doesn’t want to watch fog while you’re curled up under a blanket? Ok, The Fog. Going on the list. Peter, you have another offering for us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, The Lost Boys, 1987.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, The Lost Boys, 1987.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>You’ll never grow old, Michael. And you’ll never die. Be one of us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>You’ll never grow old, Michael. And you’ll never die. Be one of us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Joel Schumacher, who really got started with his 80s movies, with St. Elmo’s Fire, two bad Batman movies, and right in between, he kind of reinvented the vampire film to make it kind of a Peter Pan thing, really focused on teenage angst. We’ve got Kiefer Sutherland, we’ve got both Corey’s, Haim and Feldman, and they’re in Santa Cruz. They’re in a small town. New kids in town realize that this town might have some vampires in them, bond with some dorky vampire hunters. Go to the beach boardwalk, go to Atlantis Fantasy World, the comic book store. And I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town. There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure … Um, there’s a Chinese food that turns into maggots.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Joel Schumacher, who really got started with his 80s movies, with St. Elmo’s Fire, two bad Batman movies, and right in between, he kind of reinvented the vampire film to make it kind of a Peter Pan thing, really focused on teenage angst. We’ve got Kiefer Sutherland, we’ve got both Corey’s, Haim and Feldman, and they’re in Santa Cruz. They’re in a small town. New kids in town realize that this town might have some vampires in them, bond with some dorky vampire hunters. Go to the beach boardwalk, go to Atlantis Fantasy World, the comic book store. And I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town. There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure … Um, there’s a Chinese food that turns into maggots.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>Guess first, how about those maggots?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>Guess first, how about those maggots?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>You Jamie Gertz is the love interest. Just a completely 80s, over the top, fantastic to watch with as many people as possible. Every once in a while, they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz. I think that’s the best time to do it. But I just love this film, and it has aged in this way that Joel Schumacher was an adult in the 80s. He wasn’t a kid, but he really, really seemed to love that teen culture because he really captured it well. And it’s like going back to a place I wasn’t sure I wanted to go back to, but, uh, enjoyable film.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>You Jamie Gertz is the love interest. Just a completely 80s, over the top, fantastic to watch with as many people as possible. Every once in a while, they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz. I think that’s the best time to do it. But I just love this film, and it has aged in this way that Joel Schumacher was an adult in the 80s. He wasn’t a kid, but he really, really seemed to love that teen culture because he really captured it well. And it’s like going back to a place I wasn’t sure I wanted to go back to, but, uh, enjoyable film.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Great music. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Great music. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Excellent music. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Excellent music. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I love it. It’s got that like, the kids have got to take on the vampires because no one else will DNA with Fright Night as well, which is nice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I love it. It’s got that like, the kids have got to take on the vampires because no one else will DNA with Fright Night as well, which is nice.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So you can pick your monster and the era. Birds in the 60s. Fog in the 70s/80s era. Or Vampires in the 1980s… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So you can pick your monster and the era. Birds in the 60s. Fog in the 70s/80s era. Or Vampires in the 1980s… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What about the 90s? We got a movie recommendation from a listener slash KQED colleague that fits the bill … Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What about the 90s? We got a movie recommendation from a listener slash KQED colleague that fits the bill … Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabe Meline:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s Gabe Meline, senior editor of Arts and Culture at KQED. Let’s talk about Scream, the classic high school slasher movie that’s a meta-commentary on every other horror movie before it. Scream was filmed in the North Bay. Healdsburg, Sonoma, Tomales, and what I like about it, also filmed in my hometown of Santa Rosa. In fact, in the end credits, you will see a curious note. It reads, no thanks whatsoever to the Santa Rosa City School District Governing Board. That’s because director Wes Craven originally had an agreement to shoot the high school scenes at Santa Rosa High School. That is, until pearl-clutching parents caught word that a horror movie was being filmed at their kid’s school, and they got the ear of the school board, who called for a delay in filming. Wes Cravin threatened to, quote, sue their asses, a quote that appeared on the front page of the local paper, and he went out to Sonoma to film the high-school scenes at the Sonoma Community Center. Every time that credit comes up, students from Santa Rosa High School always roll their eyes and laugh to themselves about what could have been.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabe Meline:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s Gabe Meline, senior editor of Arts and Culture at KQED. Let’s talk about Scream, the classic high school slasher movie that’s a meta-commentary on every other horror movie before it. Scream was filmed in the North Bay. Healdsburg, Sonoma, Tomales, and what I like about it, also filmed in my hometown of Santa Rosa. In fact, in the end credits, you will see a curious note. It reads, no thanks whatsoever to the Santa Rosa City School District Governing Board. That’s because director Wes Craven originally had an agreement to shoot the high school scenes at Santa Rosa High School. That is, until pearl-clutching parents caught word that a horror movie was being filmed at their kid’s school, and they got the ear of the school board, who called for a delay in filming. Wes Cravin threatened to, quote, sue their asses, a quote that appeared on the front page of the local paper, and he went out to Sonoma to film the high-school scenes at the Sonoma Community Center. Every time that credit comes up, students from Santa Rosa High School always roll their eyes and laugh to themselves about what could have been.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We will be back in just a minute with more recommendations from Carly Severn and Peter Hartlaub, but first a brief intermission. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We will be back in just a minute with more recommendations from Carly Severn and Peter Hartlaub, but first a brief intermission. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re back talking scary Bay Area movies. One listener, Kai Ando from Foster City, had this recommendation for us… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re back talking scary Bay Area movies. One listener, Kai Ando from Foster City, had this recommendation for us… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>2011’s Contagion it’s the movie I think a lot of us saw during the COVID pandemic because of the eerie similarities that the plot had with the reality that we were all living in during\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>2011’s Contagion it’s the movie I think a lot of us saw during the COVID pandemic because of the eerie similarities that the plot had with the reality that we were all living in during\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Contagion Clip: \u003c/strong>pandemic. The average person touches their face three to five times every waking minute. In between, we’re touching doorknobs, water fountains, and each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Contagion Clip: \u003c/strong>pandemic. The average person touches their face three to five times every waking minute. In between, we’re touching doorknobs, water fountains, and each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>Jude Law’s character lives in San Francisco as a conspiracy theorist, I believe, who spreads misinformation and panic. I specifically remember his character walking around this trashed barren landscape of a San Francisco street in full hazmat suits.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>Jude Law’s character lives in San Francisco as a conspiracy theorist, I believe, who spreads misinformation and panic. I specifically remember his character walking around this trashed barren landscape of a San Francisco street in full hazmat suits.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Peter, Carly, any thoughts on Contagion?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Peter, Carly, any thoughts on Contagion?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Filmed in the Chronicle newsroom and speaking of hazmat suits, the desk, Benny Evangelista’s desk was specifically chosen because it was so messy, which is very much, usually in journalism movies I get angry because everybody’s desks are too clean, but they leaned into it. Our newsroom is as messy as those streets when the garbage stops getting collected. Great film.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Contagion, good movie, it’s Stephen Soderbergh, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Stephen Soderbergh, you have to have an experienced director, and spoiler for a 2011 movie, kill Gwyneth Paltrow off in like the first 12 seconds.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> That’s their psycho moment as well, where it’s like, oh, you thought Gwyneth was going to be in this movie? Guess again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> That’s their psycho moment as well, where it’s like, oh, you thought Gwyneth was going to be in this movie? Guess again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess again.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We just need to hear it for the publicity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We just need to hear it for the publicity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> My next movie I want to recommend is called Burnt Offerings, which is 1976, and it is filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, which a big old neoclassical, this sprawling mansion and grounds that was built in I think 1899. And this movie’s great. I’d seen it once, I re-watched it for this and I think it’s genuinely great now. It’s got this killer cast, it’s got Oliver Reed, it has got Karen Black, Bette Davis in I believe her last ever movie role. It is one of those lovely family moves into a clearly quite scary house and stuff starts happening to them. And it’s so upsetting because they set up the family so well in the first five or ten minutes that this family loves each other, they banter with each other. And then seeing what happens and how the house starts to affect them is, it’s, yeah, it just kind of gets under your skin.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> My next movie I want to recommend is called Burnt Offerings, which is 1976, and it is filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, which a big old neoclassical, this sprawling mansion and grounds that was built in I think 1899. And this movie’s great. I’d seen it once, I re-watched it for this and I think it’s genuinely great now. It’s got this killer cast, it’s got Oliver Reed, it has got Karen Black, Bette Davis in I believe her last ever movie role. It is one of those lovely family moves into a clearly quite scary house and stuff starts happening to them. And it’s so upsetting because they set up the family so well in the first five or ten minutes that this family loves each other, they banter with each other. And then seeing what happens and how the house starts to affect them is, it’s, yeah, it just kind of gets under your skin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> There’s this iconic scene in the house’s pool … where Oliver Reed is playing with his son, but it keeps getting rougher and rougher until he’s basically drowning him. Meanwhile his aunt, Bette Davis’ character, is anxiously watching from land, not quite sure how to intervene.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> There’s this iconic scene in the house’s pool … where Oliver Reed is playing with his son, but it keeps getting rougher and rougher until he’s basically drowning him. Meanwhile his aunt, Bette Davis’ character, is anxiously watching from land, not quite sure how to intervene.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Burnt Offerings clip: \u003c/strong>All right now, you two. That’s quite enough.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Burnt Offerings clip: \u003c/strong>All right now, you two. That’s quite enough.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>It’s not a haunted house movie, there’s no possessions, there is no, did you hear that sound? A lot of it is filmed in the daylight. It’s all about the effect that the house has on this family and what it starts making them do and the location itself. It was featured in another classic 1980s horror movie, Phantasm. It’s so evocative the fact that it’s really dilapidated as part of the point when they arrive and the house starts to kind of regenerate themselves as it’s feeding off literally you know the fresh blood of the family. If you haven’t seen it, really check it out. It’s pretty great. Oliver Reed is one big ham sandwich, which is how I like my Oliver Reed. Bette Davis is great and really sparky and what happens to her character is again quite genuinely upsetting. Yeah, this movie rules. Everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>It’s not a haunted house movie, there’s no possessions, there is no, did you hear that sound? A lot of it is filmed in the daylight. It’s all about the effect that the house has on this family and what it starts making them do and the location itself. It was featured in another classic 1980s horror movie, Phantasm. It’s so evocative the fact that it’s really dilapidated as part of the point when they arrive and the house starts to kind of regenerate themselves as it’s feeding off literally you know the fresh blood of the family. If you haven’t seen it, really check it out. It’s pretty great. Oliver Reed is one big ham sandwich, which is how I like my Oliver Reed. Bette Davis is great and really sparky and what happens to her character is again quite genuinely upsetting. Yeah, this movie rules. Everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I should mention here Bay Curious has done an episode on the Dunsmuir House — worth a listen if you want to learn more. Unfortunately right now the house is closed to the public because, quite honestly, it’s in rough shape.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> When I saw the beginning of the movie, when it looks so dilapidated, that’s kind of like where it’s going now, unfortunately. I think a lot of people are sounding the alarm in the local community about this place being allowed to slip into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> When I saw the beginning of the movie, when it looks so dilapidated, that’s kind of like where it’s going now, unfortunately. I think a lot of people are sounding the alarm in the local community about this place being allowed to slip into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Peter, what do you have next for us?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Peter, what do you have next for us?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Pacific Heights, 1990 movie, which I like to call Petrero Hill because not a single frame of it is filmed in Pacific Heights. It’s actually the house in Pacific Heights is about three blocks from where we’re sitting in Potrero Hill. 1990 film that dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws. Matthew Modine and Melanie Griffith are moving into what looks like a fixer upper Victorian in Pacific Heights, a lot of things wrong with that, $750,000 and they’re going to rent a studio and a one bedroom and just try to make the narrow margins of home ownership and San Francisco work. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Pacific Heights, 1990 movie, which I like to call Petrero Hill because not a single frame of it is filmed in Pacific Heights. It’s actually the house in Pacific Heights is about three blocks from where we’re sitting in Potrero Hill. 1990 film that dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws. Matthew Modine and Melanie Griffith are moving into what looks like a fixer upper Victorian in Pacific Heights, a lot of things wrong with that, $750,000 and they’re going to rent a studio and a one bedroom and just try to make the narrow margins of home ownership and San Francisco work. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Terrifying \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Terrifying. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yeah my spine is tingling \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Michael Keaton pulls up in a Porsche and just seals himself in a room and just becomes the tenant from hell, cockroaches are involved, multiple identities are involved and Michael Keaton is so good in this. We’ve got to remember this is right after Batman. This is in his Mr. Mom era. He was not doing these, you know villainous roles and kind of what sort of a B movie and he is so good in this. He is so evil. He’s done things like this since, but at the time this was a real shock. And John Schlesinger is the director. He directed Midnight Cowboy Marathon Man. He’s kind of slumming it in this film, but you get the feeling he just wanted to do a Hitchcock film and it feels a little bit like a lost B movie Hitchcock film in all the best ways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Michael Keaton pulls up in a Porsche and just seals himself in a room and just becomes the tenant from hell, cockroaches are involved, multiple identities are involved and Michael Keaton is so good in this. We’ve got to remember this is right after Batman. This is in his Mr. Mom era. He was not doing these, you know villainous roles and kind of what sort of a B movie and he is so good in this. He is so evil. He’s done things like this since, but at the time this was a real shock. And John Schlesinger is the director. He directed Midnight Cowboy Marathon Man. He’s kind of slumming it in this film, but you get the feeling he just wanted to do a Hitchcock film and it feels a little bit like a lost B movie Hitchcock film in all the best ways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Do you think casting Melanie Griffith is a nod to that since Tippi Hedren is her mom?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Do you think casting Melanie Griffith is a nod to that since Tippi Hedren is her mom?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. And Tippi Hedren, Melanie Griffith’s mother, has a short cameo in this film that I’m not even sure if it’s credited, but she’s in it very, very briefly. So, no, very clearly this director was a big Hitchcock fan and probably a big The Birds and Vertigo fan because there’s feelings throughout.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. And Tippi Hedren, Melanie Griffith’s mother, has a short cameo in this film that I’m not even sure if it’s credited, but she’s in it very, very briefly. So, no, very clearly this director was a big Hitchcock fan and probably a big The Birds and Vertigo fan because there’s feelings throughout.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Peter, I’m so glad you brought Pacific Heights because we don’t talk about Pacific Heights enough as a society. It’s such a relic of a specific time. Michael Keaton is my guy. One of my very first crushes, I think, as Batman. And yeah, this movie is just really fun and like very San Francisco centric.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Peter, I’m so glad you brought Pacific Heights because we don’t talk about Pacific Heights enough as a society. It’s such a relic of a specific time. Michael Keaton is my guy. One of my very first crushes, I think, as Batman. And yeah, this movie is just really fun and like very San Francisco centric.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Much like the game, David Fincher’s The Game, it takes place right before the city really shifted from kind of the old money to the tech money. So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Much like the game, David Fincher’s The Game, it takes place right before the city really shifted from kind of the old money to the tech money. So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, Carly, well onto your third and final recommendation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, Carly, well onto your third and final recommendation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> OK, so I know we discussed this movie on our previous movie podcast. I just have to bring it again. It’s Zodiac. I think it’s the scariest movie ever set and filmed in and around the San Francisco Bay Area. It is based on the true story of the still unsolved Zodiac murders in the 60s and 70s. This movie is just fantastic. I could watch it I think every year for the rest of my life. It was David Fincher. Well, Lake Berryessa scene, which recreates one of the murders, it is one of the very few scenes I just am unable to watch. I will always go and do something else. I will walk away from the screen and go and make like a cup of tea or use the bathroom. I physically cannot watch that scene. And I love my horror movies and that one just gets under my skin. It is too upsetting. And it’s all in broad daylight as well. Just a real example of broad daylight horror. Yeah, and just all these other little locations sprinkled throughout. There’s Geary outside, I think it’s the Tony Rembey Theater, ACT Theater, where the Zodiac Killer hails the cab that he then gets into that takes him to the intersection of Washington and Cherry Streets where another murder takes place. But I got to say my favorite location for this movie is not actually real. It is the gorgeous CGI rendering, the time lapse of the Transamerica pyramid being built to the sound of Marvin Gaye’s inner city blues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> OK, so I know we discussed this movie on our previous movie podcast. I just have to bring it again. It’s Zodiac. I think it’s the scariest movie ever set and filmed in and around the San Francisco Bay Area. It is based on the true story of the still unsolved Zodiac murders in the 60s and 70s. This movie is just fantastic. I could watch it I think every year for the rest of my life. It was David Fincher. Well, Lake Berryessa scene, which recreates one of the murders, it is one of the very few scenes I just am unable to watch. I will always go and do something else. I will walk away from the screen and go and make like a cup of tea or use the bathroom. I physically cannot watch that scene. And I love my horror movies and that one just gets under my skin. It is too upsetting. And it’s all in broad daylight as well. Just a real example of broad daylight horror. Yeah, and just all these other little locations sprinkled throughout. There’s Geary outside, I think it’s the Tony Rembey Theater, ACT Theater, where the Zodiac Killer hails the cab that he then gets into that takes him to the intersection of Washington and Cherry Streets where another murder takes place. But I got to say my favorite location for this movie is not actually real. It is the gorgeous CGI rendering, the time lapse of the Transamerica pyramid being built to the sound of Marvin Gaye’s inner city blues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>It’s such a great scene. The visual effects are seamless there. Yeah, I mean, you listen to a song on the Zodiac soundtrack and it brings you back there. That’s a special, special kind of soundtrack.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>It’s such a great scene. The visual effects are seamless there. Yeah, I mean, you listen to a song on the Zodiac soundtrack and it brings you back there. That’s a special, special kind of soundtrack.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>How that movie just manages the passage of time as well. Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders and eventually just, they run out of time. It’s too late. The chief suspect is dead. Yeah, what a movie. If you haven’t seen Zodiac, just come watch it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>How that movie just manages the passage of time as well. Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders and eventually just, they run out of time. It’s too late. The chief suspect is dead. Yeah, what a movie. If you haven’t seen Zodiac, just come watch it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And any update on the Zodiac killer?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And any update on the Zodiac killer?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I know you guys are still working on it, right? So we have a Zodiac beat writer. It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job. It was Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and then now it’s been passed on to a couple other people. Kevin thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in, of course. It’s not over. And people, when they did tours of the 901 Mission Chronicle site, would always say, I wanna see the Zodiac stuff. And my answer was always, it’s an active case. All of the stuff that the Zodiac sent is still at the Hall of Justice in San Francisco. This case is not solved. So, yeah, amazing piece of our history that continues.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I know you guys are still working on it, right? So we have a Zodiac beat writer. It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job. It was Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and then now it’s been passed on to a couple other people. Kevin thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in, of course. It’s not over. And people, when they did tours of the 901 Mission Chronicle site, would always say, I wanna see the Zodiac stuff. And my answer was always, it’s an active case. All of the stuff that the Zodiac sent is still at the Hall of Justice in San Francisco. This case is not solved. So, yeah, amazing piece of our history that continues.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we did say at the top you each could bring three, but there was one more that just can’t be left out. Initially we thought we’d leave it out because we talked about it before, but it just can’t be helped… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we did say at the top you each could bring three, but there was one more that just can’t be left out. Initially we thought we’d leave it out because we talked about it before, but it just can’t be helped… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah and this would be number one on the list if we hadn’t talked about it before. Invasion of the Body Snatchers is just so stellar. One of the best uses of locations in San Francisco. Terrifying. City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. Painted Ladies, but you don’t even know that they are the Painted Ladies. It’s one of the ones on the end just a very terrifying film of the city getting taken over, but are you paranoid or is it really happening? And I’ve watched it probably 10 times. I think it’s one of the best San Francisco films, maybe the most underrated.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah and this would be number one on the list if we hadn’t talked about it before. Invasion of the Body Snatchers is just so stellar. One of the best uses of locations in San Francisco. Terrifying. City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. Painted Ladies, but you don’t even know that they are the Painted Ladies. It’s one of the ones on the end just a very terrifying film of the city getting taken over, but are you paranoid or is it really happening? And I’ve watched it probably 10 times. I think it’s one of the best San Francisco films, maybe the most underrated.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Well, and I love that all these recommendations, because they are set in the Bay Area, to me that makes them more real, more believable somehow, because you’re not just watching something that takes place in an abstract city that you’ve maybe never been to, or you don’t even know what it is, maybe it doesn’t even have a name, but when you’re seeing these places on film that you recognize that you’re been to somehow it makes everything else that’s painted on top of those backgrounds feel more real which is scary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Well, and I love that all these recommendations, because they are set in the Bay Area, to me that makes them more real, more believable somehow, because you’re not just watching something that takes place in an abstract city that you’ve maybe never been to, or you don’t even know what it is, maybe it doesn’t even have a name, but when you’re seeing these places on film that you recognize that you’re been to somehow it makes everything else that’s painted on top of those backgrounds feel more real which is scary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Super special to watch as well there’s just something about that like tactility which as a viewer let your brain just goes it just feels great\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Super special to watch as well there’s just something about that like tactility which as a viewer let your brain just goes it just feels great\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>These are some fantastic recommendations I cannot wait to tuck in and watch them. Just to recap, we talked about The Birds, The Fog, Lost Boys, Scream, Contagion, Burnt Offerings, Pacific Heights, Zodiac and Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You’ve got 5 weeks until Halloween, how many can you see? Peter Hartlob, Culture Critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. What’s the best way that people can kind of keep up with what you’re doing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>These are some fantastic recommendations I cannot wait to tuck in and watch them. Just to recap, we talked about The Birds, The Fog, Lost Boys, Scream, Contagion, Burnt Offerings, Pacific Heights, Zodiac and Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You’ve got 5 weeks until Halloween, how many can you see? Peter Hartlob, Culture Critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. What’s the best way that people can kind of keep up with what you’re doing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Subscribe to The Chronicle or whatever station or publication that you love, but I’m in The Chronicle all the time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Subscribe to The Chronicle or whatever station or publication that you love, but I’m in The Chronicle all the time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Carly Severn, senior editor of audience news here at KQED. What about you? You got some spooky stuff going on?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Carly Severn, senior editor of audience news here at KQED. What about you? You got some spooky stuff going on?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> We do. Our desk does explainers and guides. You can see it all at KQED.org slash explainers. And while we do a lot of serious stuff, we also like to have fun too. So we have a lot of spooky season explainers, and guides coming up, including a guide to the North Bay’s historic cemeteries that you can replicate the tour, a guide to immersive experiences around the Bay Area. And for all you history nerds, we have a guide to the Spooky Feeling History Tours you can embark on too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> We do. Our desk does explainers and guides. You can see it all at KQED.org slash explainers. And while we do a lot of serious stuff, we also like to have fun too. So we have a lot of spooky season explainers, and guides coming up, including a guide to the North Bay’s historic cemeteries that you can replicate the tour, a guide to immersive experiences around the Bay Area. And for all you history nerds, we have a guide to the Spooky Feeling History Tours you can embark on too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thank you both so much. This has been such a fun morning and I can’t wait to watch some of these films. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thank you both so much. This has been such a fun morning and I can’t wait to watch some of these films. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having us. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having us. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from, and everyone on team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a spooky one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from, and everyone on team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a spooky one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As longtime locals and film obsessives, we’ll admit our bias up front: the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bay-area\">Bay Area\u003c/a> puts on a masterclass in horror atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Alongside the postcard views is a landscape engineered for suspense. Thick fog strips visibility to zero without warning. Hilly terrain turns every curve into a blind leap. And hanging over it all is the eerie geography of being at the edge of the continent — on the precipice of the deep, freezing Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s why we put together this list of our favorite scary movies filmed in the Bay Area. Spend spooky season with local thrills you may not know. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/5m9c0gBgh6c'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/5m9c0gBgh6c'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>The Fog\u003c/em> (1980)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080749/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Local legend tells of a ship lured onto the rocks of Antonio Bay being enveloped by a supernatural cloud as it sank; the myth says that when this mysterious fog returns, the victims will rise up from the depths seeking vengeance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Peep scenic North Bay locations like Stinson Beach and Point Reyes in this oft-overlooked John Carpenter film made on the heels of his smash hit, Halloween. In the film, the Point Reyes Lighthouse was chosen as the headquarters of K.A.B. radio, a central location in the film. It happens to be one of the windiest and foggiest places in North America — so the ambiance for this horror film was ready-made. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s a cozy classic as well,” KQED’s Carly Severn said. “It’s just so evocative of the fall to me. I always regarded this movie as an oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Plus, we love to see our eternal weather pattern cast in a spooky light.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Fog has gotten too cute,” said Peter Hartlaub, culture critic with the \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em>. “There’s Karl the Fog. We’re wearing all these little foggy T-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/q9VqUzdEQsk'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/q9VqUzdEQsk'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Invasion of the Body Snatchers\u003c/em> (1978)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077745/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> When strange seeds drift to Earth from space, mysterious pods begin to grow and invade San Francisco, replicating the city’s residents one body at a time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> If you want a horror film with a strong sense of San Francisco, this one is tough to beat. “One of the best uses of locations,” Hartlaub said. “City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. The Painted Ladies.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Nearly every scene feels like San Francisco — even the interior shots. Plus, the old-school special effects are straight up \u003cem>creepy\u003c/em> in a way CGI just can’t touch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I’ve watched it probably 10 times. I think it’s one of the best San Francisco films, maybe the most underrated,” Hartlaub said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/lCxR7dlavwg'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/lCxR7dlavwg'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em> (1963) \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056869/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20birds\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A wealthy San Francisco socialite follows a potential boyfriend to a small Northern California town that slowly takes a turn toward the bizarre when birds of all kinds suddenly begin to attack people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it:\u003c/strong> Look, it just doesn’t get more “classic Bay Area horror film” than \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em>. Alfred Hitchcock is one of cinema’s greatest, and he delivers in this nature-strikes-back film. The movie starts in Union Square in downtown San Francisco, but spends most of its time in the North Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green pencil skirt,” Hartlaub said. “She falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/kPrqsdlgqCw'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/kPrqsdlgqCw'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>The Lost Boys\u003c/em> (1987)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093437/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%20lost%20boys\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>When a recently divorced mother and her two teenage boys move to a coastal town to stay with her father, it doesn’t take long for the brothers to realize the area is a haven for something much more sinister than party-going surfers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>Santa Cruz may technically be beyond the nine-county Bay Area, but spiritually it feels the part. The Santa Cruz Boardwalk and surrounding area are core to the film and help underscore the film’s 1980s teenage nostalgia. Atlantis Fantasyworld Comic Book Shop plays a central role, too. Every once in a while they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz, which is absolutely the most primo way to watch it.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of being a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town,” Hartlaub said. “There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure, there’s Chinese food that turns into maggots.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Chilling!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/yNncHPl1UXg'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/yNncHPl1UXg'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Zodiac\u003c/em> (2007)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443706/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Between 1968 and 1983, a San Francisco cartoonist becomes an amateur detective obsessed with tracking down the Zodiac Killer, an unidentified individual who terrorizes Northern California with a killing spree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It’s not just one of the best scary movies set in the Bay Area; we’d argue it’s one of the best Bay Area movies, period. It should be on anybody’s watch list who has moved to San Francisco because it’s based on a true story — so you’ll learn some local history too!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the film, you’ll spot familiar sites like Original Joe’s, San Francisco City Hall, Lake Berryessa and ACT Theatre. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> newsroom scenes were shot on a soundstage in Hollywood, but the set is so darn close to reality, we’ll count it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“How the movie manages the passage of time is so interesting,” Severn said. “Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though decades have passed since the real-life murders took place, \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> still has a reporter assigned to updates on the Zodiac killer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job,” Hartlaub said. “It was [reporter] Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and he thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in … it’s not over.\u003cem>”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/JidGAt7zXT0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/JidGAt7zXT0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Pacific Heights \u003c/em>(1990)\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100318/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_2_nm_0_in_0_q_pacific%20heights\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>Drake and Patty purchase a San Francisco Victorian hoping to fund their future through rental income. Their stability collapses when Carter Hayes occupies the studio, weaponizing tenant laws to drain their finances and sanity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>OK, this film should have been called “Potrero Hill” because that’s where it was nearly entirely filmed. “And it dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws,” Hartlaub said. But we’ll overlook both those details because there are so many other things to love about this film.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Director John Schlesinger clearly drew inspiration from Alfred Hitchcock’s \u003cem>The Birds\u003c/em> and \u003cem>Vertigo\u003c/em> because there are callbacks throughout the film — including casting Melanie Griffith, the daughter of \u003cem>The Birds’\u003c/em> star Tippi Hedren. And Hedren makes a brief wordless cameo herself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Much like David Fincher’s \u003cem>The Game\u003c/em>, it takes place right before the city really shifted from the old money to the tech money,” Hartlaub said. “So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/dmINBAFhveM'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/dmINBAFhveM'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Burnt Offerings\u003c/em> (1976)\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074258/?ref_=fn_t_1\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>: \u003c/strong>A family moves into a large old mansion in the countryside which seems to have a mysterious and sinister power over its new residents.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>It was filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, a large neoclassical mansion that dates back to 1899. The house is a gem of real estate in the Bay Area in many ways, though it has fallen into disrepair in recent decades. \u003ca href=\"https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/restore-the-dunsmuir-hellman-historic-estate-protect-oaklands-most-storied-mansion\">Grassroots efforts are underway\u003c/a> to try to urge the City of Oakland to take action.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Burnt Offerings is a scary house movie, but not in the haunted sense you might expect. There are no ghosts, creaking doors or jump scares. This film is all about the sinister way the people who live inside the house start acting.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“In the first five or 10 minutes, they set up that this family loves each other; they banter with each other,” Severn said. “And then seeing how the house starts to affect them. It just kind of gets under your skin.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This one also has an awesome cast, including Oliver Reed and Bette Davis in her final role. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/4sYSyuuLk5g'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/4sYSyuuLk5g'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">\u003cem>Contagion \u003c/em>(2011) \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Plot summary from \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1598778/\">\u003cstrong>IMDB\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong> Healthcare professionals, government officials and everyday people find themselves in the midst of a pandemic as the CDC works to find a cure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Why we love it: \u003c/strong>San Francisco features heavily in this thriller that had us all wondering during the COVID-19 pandemic: “Did they know this was coming?” Locals will spot scenes set in North Beach, outside Bill Graham Civic Auditorium and inside Candlestick Park (RIP!). \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This recommendation came from Bay Curious listener Kai Ando, who had this to say about it: “Because I watched it during the COVID pandemic and because it was set in the Bay … I think it stuck with me pretty deeply and even afterwards.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Did we leave out one of your favorites? Let us know by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you’ve been following Bay Curious over the years, you may have detected by now that Halloween is my favorite holiday, and it’s not even close. I think part of my obsession is the changing of the season, of course, from the go-go-go of summer to the, you know, cup of tea vibes we get in early fall. And I feel like during trick-or-treating, the streets of our neighborhoods come alive like no other time of year, all packed with excited kids, adults laughing with each other. And teenagers in the shadows doing whatever it is teenagers do. And of course, the costumes. Now I love an elaborate something that takes weeks of planning, multiple trips to the craft store and several late nights to come together. But to get into the spirit this year, I am feeling called to the couch. It’s been a busy summer and I’m ready to just sit and chill a little bit and watch some scary movies. As is my inclination, perhaps obsession, I figure I may as well make them Bay Area scary movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So as I was creating my watch list, I decided to call my two most trusted friends when it comes to all things Bay Area film and ask them, “What should we be watching this spooky season?” So here to offer their top recommendations are Carly Severn, KQED’s senior editor of Audience News. Hey, Carly.\u003cbr> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Hello Olivia, the calls are coming from inside the house.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ahhh, they are. Spoiler alert, we’re all sitting around one table. And Peter Hartlaub, San Francisco Chronicle’s Culture Critic. Welcome, Peter.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I am so glad to be back with you all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yay! I’m glad you’re saying ‘glad to be back’ because this is getting the gang back together because a few years ago, this same trio, we made an episode around Christmas time with your recommendations for Bay Area movies at the request of a listener, but today we’re back with a spooky twist on the theme and I couldn’t be more excited.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Oh we’re like the killer that just won’t die. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before we get into your recs, I want to establish your credentials as people who know scary things. So I’ve got a quick list of warm up questions, and I’m looking for quick and punchy answers here. Are you ready?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Ready.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>I’m ready.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, starting with you. Best Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Mini Twix or Mini Snickers, no question.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mini?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I love a little fun size because then you can eat 5,000 of them.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wonderful. Peter, favorite Halloween candy?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fun-size Heath bar. And here’s the thing, the people giving away the full-size candy bar often are so wealthy you have to walk way up the path and you’re getting less candy overall so hot tip the fun size is OK.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about worst Halloween candy? What do you get and you just groan? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>What’s that corn thing?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Candy corn?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Candy corn, yeah. Horrible. Get it off the planet.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Oh my God, I love candy corn. I’m sorry. This recording is over.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I’ll see myself out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>This is like black licorice. This is a very, very controversial one. I’m going with those black and orange wrapped up little peanut butter toffee things that always end up in the bottom of your kid’s Halloween bag after you’ve stolen all of the rest of their candy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s interesting that toffee shows up in both your favorite and least favorite candies though.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Yes, there’s good and bad toffee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, what about the place in the Bay Area you would be most afraid to spend the night by yourself?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I had to think about this, because I think there’s some haunted hotel rooms, but I think I’d kind of be into that in a sort of 1408 way. So I decided Golden Gate Park, because the lighting there is not good, and what if I cannot find my way out?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so you’re afraid of getting lost?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I am.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Peter, what about you? I’m afraid of heights, so the top of Sutro Tower, which in addition to being super scary from a heights point of view, has a haunted elevator going up. I’ve been on it. It’s … we don’t wanna talk about it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, and what about … oh, this is my favorite question actually, the favorite costume you’ve ever worn. I’m going to Peter first for this one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I made a Gandalf costume for my son that had a light up staff and I loved it so much that I altered it and wore it myself two years later.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Nice. How old was he at the time?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>He was seven and didn’t know who Gandalf was. This was strictly performative parenting, but I did have him slamming it on the ground and saying, ‘you shall not pass.’ Really entertaining.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> The parental equivalent of making your kid wear the Ramones t-shirt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Very much so, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I feel personally attacked by that. Carly, what about you?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I made a really good Shelley Duvall from The Shining, but I think a couple of years previous I was Pris, the Daryl Hannah robot character from Blade Runner, and I looked fine, I’m just going to say.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Not to humble brag but\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> No, no, it’s a long time and you can boast about yourself if it’s a long time ago. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What do you think makes the Bay Area such a good background for a horror film?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I think there are two things that elevate the Bay Area over a lot of other cities. The climate and the topography. And with climate, the fog, what is scarier than that? What could come through the fog? Constantly changing unpredictable weather I think is scarier than being in Los Angeles and oh, it’s 70 degrees again. Topography, you’re going over the hill. What’s gonna be over that hill? It’s kind of, there’s this living element to … Exploring a city and not knowing what’s going to be around the next curve, not knowing what’s gonna be over the next hill and I think those two things sort of like become characters in some of these films that we’re going to discuss today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Completely agree. And I think a lot about this patch of the West Coast as well, that it can have that end of the line feeling. You have gone as far west as you can and now there is just a great expanse of nothing, the Pacific Ocean. There’s also a history as well. The Golden State literally built on wealth accumulated during the gold rush. And you always wonder, like, what’s behind that? Too good to be true. What are the real stories behind that, what are the darker hidden histories behind that? And that’s something that- I think a lot of Bay Area-set horror movies, either directly or indirectly, are also wrestling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music transition\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So let’s get onto the main business for today, your scary movie recommendations. Now, I had each of you come with three recommendations, and then we also have one from a Bay Curious listener who responded to a call out. So let us delay no longer and get to it. Peter, I’m gonna start with you. What is the first movie you would recommend?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Alfred Hitchcock’s The Birds. So The Birds is a 1963 film starring Tippi Hedren as a little bit of a socialite, starts in Union Square at a Union Square pet shop. I’m trying to figure out where it was. I think it’s where the Disney store is now. Tippi Hedren’s costumes are just a star in this because she’s wearing the same green blazer and green kind of pencil skirt, falls for a guy, follows him out to Bodega Bay with a bird and then the rest of the birds in the world turn on them, quickly turns into a horror film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Birds clip:\u003c/strong> I want you to go as quietly as possible. Do not make a sound until I tell you to run. Then run as quickly as you can. Now does everybody understand? Yes, sir. All right, John, you lead the way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Where everyone from school children to people in a diner are trying to survive this attack of all the birds in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>All right, Carly, what is your first recommendation? My first recommendation is The Fog by John Carpenter, which is about a town on the Northern California coast that is about to celebrate its 100th anniversary. And 100 years ago, something happened off the waters of this town that the town would rather forget, and the sins of the past come back to haunt them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Fog clip: \u003c/strong>Where’s the fog now? Well, it should be right outside my door now. Well, there’s something different about this fog. Dan, stay away from the door!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> I always kind of regarded this movie as like a kind of oddball curio, but now it’s become one of my very favorite horror movies. It’s absolutely in the yearly rotation. This movie was made on the heels of Halloween, like John Carpenter’s Halloween, so that was a huge success and just was a bit of a whoop when it came out. Everyone was just like, well, scary fog, what’s going on? It is set in the fictional California coastal town of Antonio Bay, but that is actually the Stinson Beach, Point Reyes area. So there is so much wonderful local photography, places that you can just go to and be like, yes, one-to-one, I match that with the fog. The lighthouse is probably the one that everyone thinks about automatically. It’s called Spivey Point in the movie, but that’s actually the Point Reyes lighthouse. And there’s also incredible shots of Point Reyes station in Olayma. And there was a point I love in the movie when there’s just been a big scare in a morgue. And night starts to fall and you’re like, oh no, it’s all gonna kick off. And as kind of a bridge into the nightfall, there are these gorgeous dusky shots of like that part of the coastline, there’s like forests, it’s just incredible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> And horrifying. I’m always shocked that this movie isn’t mentioned more among carpenters, oeuvres, among horror movies. It’s scary, and it’s local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> It’s so scary and it’s a cozy classic as well, it’s just so evocative of the fall to me and ugh.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Fog has gotten too cute. We’ve got Carl the Fog, we’re like wearing all these little foggy t-shirts. Fog should be horrifying. Bring horrifying fog back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> What a movie, everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And who doesn’t want to watch fog while you’re curled up under a blanket? Ok, The Fog. Going on the list. Peter, you have another offering for us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, The Lost Boys, 1987.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>The Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>You’ll never grow old, Michael. And you’ll never die. Be one of us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Joel Schumacher, who really got started with his 80s movies, with St. Elmo’s Fire, two bad Batman movies, and right in between, he kind of reinvented the vampire film to make it kind of a Peter Pan thing, really focused on teenage angst. We’ve got Kiefer Sutherland, we’ve got both Corey’s, Haim and Feldman, and they’re in Santa Cruz. They’re in a small town. New kids in town realize that this town might have some vampires in them, bond with some dorky vampire hunters. Go to the beach boardwalk, go to Atlantis Fantasy World, the comic book store. And I feel like the torture of being young forever is the horror in this film. The torture of a teenager forever, the torture not fitting in in a new town. There’s cliques, there’s peer pressure … Um, there’s a Chinese food that turns into maggots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lost Boys clip: \u003c/strong>Guess first, how about those maggots?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>You Jamie Gertz is the love interest. Just a completely 80s, over the top, fantastic to watch with as many people as possible. Every once in a while, they’ll show it on the beach in Santa Cruz. I think that’s the best time to do it. But I just love this film, and it has aged in this way that Joel Schumacher was an adult in the 80s. He wasn’t a kid, but he really, really seemed to love that teen culture because he really captured it well. And it’s like going back to a place I wasn’t sure I wanted to go back to, but, uh, enjoyable film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Great music. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Excellent music. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>I love it. It’s got that like, the kids have got to take on the vampires because no one else will DNA with Fright Night as well, which is nice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So you can pick your monster and the era. Birds in the 60s. Fog in the 70s/80s era. Or Vampires in the 1980s… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What about the 90s? We got a movie recommendation from a listener slash KQED colleague that fits the bill … Let’s hear it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabe Meline:\u003c/strong> Hey, it’s Gabe Meline, senior editor of Arts and Culture at KQED. Let’s talk about Scream, the classic high school slasher movie that’s a meta-commentary on every other horror movie before it. Scream was filmed in the North Bay. Healdsburg, Sonoma, Tomales, and what I like about it, also filmed in my hometown of Santa Rosa. In fact, in the end credits, you will see a curious note. It reads, no thanks whatsoever to the Santa Rosa City School District Governing Board. That’s because director Wes Craven originally had an agreement to shoot the high school scenes at Santa Rosa High School. That is, until pearl-clutching parents caught word that a horror movie was being filmed at their kid’s school, and they got the ear of the school board, who called for a delay in filming. Wes Cravin threatened to, quote, sue their asses, a quote that appeared on the front page of the local paper, and he went out to Sonoma to film the high-school scenes at the Sonoma Community Center. Every time that credit comes up, students from Santa Rosa High School always roll their eyes and laugh to themselves about what could have been.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We will be back in just a minute with more recommendations from Carly Severn and Peter Hartlaub, but first a brief intermission. Stay with us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re back talking scary Bay Area movies. One listener, Kai Ando from Foster City, had this recommendation for us… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>2011’s Contagion it’s the movie I think a lot of us saw during the COVID pandemic because of the eerie similarities that the plot had with the reality that we were all living in during\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Contagion Clip: \u003c/strong>pandemic. The average person touches their face three to five times every waking minute. In between, we’re touching doorknobs, water fountains, and each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kai Ando: \u003c/strong>Jude Law’s character lives in San Francisco as a conspiracy theorist, I believe, who spreads misinformation and panic. I specifically remember his character walking around this trashed barren landscape of a San Francisco street in full hazmat suits.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Peter, Carly, any thoughts on Contagion?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Filmed in the Chronicle newsroom and speaking of hazmat suits, the desk, Benny Evangelista’s desk was specifically chosen because it was so messy, which is very much, usually in journalism movies I get angry because everybody’s desks are too clean, but they leaned into it. Our newsroom is as messy as those streets when the garbage stops getting collected. Great film.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>Contagion, good movie, it’s Stephen Soderbergh, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Stephen Soderbergh, you have to have an experienced director, and spoiler for a 2011 movie, kill Gwyneth Paltrow off in like the first 12 seconds.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> That’s their psycho moment as well, where it’s like, oh, you thought Gwyneth was going to be in this movie? Guess again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I guess again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We just need to hear it for the publicity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> My next movie I want to recommend is called Burnt Offerings, which is 1976, and it is filmed in and around the Dunsmuir House in the Oakland Hills, which a big old neoclassical, this sprawling mansion and grounds that was built in I think 1899. And this movie’s great. I’d seen it once, I re-watched it for this and I think it’s genuinely great now. It’s got this killer cast, it’s got Oliver Reed, it has got Karen Black, Bette Davis in I believe her last ever movie role. It is one of those lovely family moves into a clearly quite scary house and stuff starts happening to them. And it’s so upsetting because they set up the family so well in the first five or ten minutes that this family loves each other, they banter with each other. And then seeing what happens and how the house starts to affect them is, it’s, yeah, it just kind of gets under your skin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> There’s this iconic scene in the house’s pool … where Oliver Reed is playing with his son, but it keeps getting rougher and rougher until he’s basically drowning him. Meanwhile his aunt, Bette Davis’ character, is anxiously watching from land, not quite sure how to intervene.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Burnt Offerings clip: \u003c/strong>All right now, you two. That’s quite enough.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>It’s not a haunted house movie, there’s no possessions, there is no, did you hear that sound? A lot of it is filmed in the daylight. It’s all about the effect that the house has on this family and what it starts making them do and the location itself. It was featured in another classic 1980s horror movie, Phantasm. It’s so evocative the fact that it’s really dilapidated as part of the point when they arrive and the house starts to kind of regenerate themselves as it’s feeding off literally you know the fresh blood of the family. If you haven’t seen it, really check it out. It’s pretty great. Oliver Reed is one big ham sandwich, which is how I like my Oliver Reed. Bette Davis is great and really sparky and what happens to her character is again quite genuinely upsetting. Yeah, this movie rules. Everyone should see it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I should mention here Bay Curious has done an episode on the Dunsmuir House — worth a listen if you want to learn more. Unfortunately right now the house is closed to the public because, quite honestly, it’s in rough shape.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> When I saw the beginning of the movie, when it looks so dilapidated, that’s kind of like where it’s going now, unfortunately. I think a lot of people are sounding the alarm in the local community about this place being allowed to slip into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right. Peter, what do you have next for us?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Pacific Heights, 1990 movie, which I like to call Petrero Hill because not a single frame of it is filmed in Pacific Heights. It’s actually the house in Pacific Heights is about three blocks from where we’re sitting in Potrero Hill. 1990 film that dares to suggest that the real monster is tenant rights laws. Matthew Modine and Melanie Griffith are moving into what looks like a fixer upper Victorian in Pacific Heights, a lot of things wrong with that, $750,000 and they’re going to rent a studio and a one bedroom and just try to make the narrow margins of home ownership and San Francisco work. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Terrifying \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Terrifying. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Yeah my spine is tingling \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>Michael Keaton pulls up in a Porsche and just seals himself in a room and just becomes the tenant from hell, cockroaches are involved, multiple identities are involved and Michael Keaton is so good in this. We’ve got to remember this is right after Batman. This is in his Mr. Mom era. He was not doing these, you know villainous roles and kind of what sort of a B movie and he is so good in this. He is so evil. He’s done things like this since, but at the time this was a real shock. And John Schlesinger is the director. He directed Midnight Cowboy Marathon Man. He’s kind of slumming it in this film, but you get the feeling he just wanted to do a Hitchcock film and it feels a little bit like a lost B movie Hitchcock film in all the best ways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Do you think casting Melanie Griffith is a nod to that since Tippi Hedren is her mom?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Oh, yes. And Tippi Hedren, Melanie Griffith’s mother, has a short cameo in this film that I’m not even sure if it’s credited, but she’s in it very, very briefly. So, no, very clearly this director was a big Hitchcock fan and probably a big The Birds and Vertigo fan because there’s feelings throughout.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Peter, I’m so glad you brought Pacific Heights because we don’t talk about Pacific Heights enough as a society. It’s such a relic of a specific time. Michael Keaton is my guy. One of my very first crushes, I think, as Batman. And yeah, this movie is just really fun and like very San Francisco centric.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Much like the game, David Fincher’s The Game, it takes place right before the city really shifted from kind of the old money to the tech money. So you get this slice of the city that kind of isn’t totally there anymore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, Carly, well onto your third and final recommendation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> OK, so I know we discussed this movie on our previous movie podcast. I just have to bring it again. It’s Zodiac. I think it’s the scariest movie ever set and filmed in and around the San Francisco Bay Area. It is based on the true story of the still unsolved Zodiac murders in the 60s and 70s. This movie is just fantastic. I could watch it I think every year for the rest of my life. It was David Fincher. Well, Lake Berryessa scene, which recreates one of the murders, it is one of the very few scenes I just am unable to watch. I will always go and do something else. I will walk away from the screen and go and make like a cup of tea or use the bathroom. I physically cannot watch that scene. And I love my horror movies and that one just gets under my skin. It is too upsetting. And it’s all in broad daylight as well. Just a real example of broad daylight horror. Yeah, and just all these other little locations sprinkled throughout. There’s Geary outside, I think it’s the Tony Rembey Theater, ACT Theater, where the Zodiac Killer hails the cab that he then gets into that takes him to the intersection of Washington and Cherry Streets where another murder takes place. But I got to say my favorite location for this movie is not actually real. It is the gorgeous CGI rendering, the time lapse of the Transamerica pyramid being built to the sound of Marvin Gaye’s inner city blues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub: \u003c/strong>It’s such a great scene. The visual effects are seamless there. Yeah, I mean, you listen to a song on the Zodiac soundtrack and it brings you back there. That’s a special, special kind of soundtrack.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn: \u003c/strong>How that movie just manages the passage of time as well. Because that’s the whole point, that time keeps slipping away from these people that are investigating the Zodiac murders and eventually just, they run out of time. It’s too late. The chief suspect is dead. Yeah, what a movie. If you haven’t seen Zodiac, just come watch it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And any update on the Zodiac killer?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> I know you guys are still working on it, right? So we have a Zodiac beat writer. It’s not their full-time job, but the Zodiac is always somebody’s job. It was Kevin Fagan’s for decades, and then now it’s been passed on to a couple other people. Kevin thinks that this thing could get solved. I mean, as DNA technology gets better, the tips keep coming in, of course. It’s not over. And people, when they did tours of the 901 Mission Chronicle site, would always say, I wanna see the Zodiac stuff. And my answer was always, it’s an active case. All of the stuff that the Zodiac sent is still at the Hall of Justice in San Francisco. This case is not solved. So, yeah, amazing piece of our history that continues.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we did say at the top you each could bring three, but there was one more that just can’t be left out. Initially we thought we’d leave it out because we talked about it before, but it just can’t be helped… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Yeah and this would be number one on the list if we hadn’t talked about it before. Invasion of the Body Snatchers is just so stellar. One of the best uses of locations in San Francisco. Terrifying. City Hall is involved. The waterfront’s involved. The Civic Center. Painted Ladies, but you don’t even know that they are the Painted Ladies. It’s one of the ones on the end just a very terrifying film of the city getting taken over, but are you paranoid or is it really happening? And I’ve watched it probably 10 times. I think it’s one of the best San Francisco films, maybe the most underrated.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Well, and I love that all these recommendations, because they are set in the Bay Area, to me that makes them more real, more believable somehow, because you’re not just watching something that takes place in an abstract city that you’ve maybe never been to, or you don’t even know what it is, maybe it doesn’t even have a name, but when you’re seeing these places on film that you recognize that you’re been to somehow it makes everything else that’s painted on top of those backgrounds feel more real which is scary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Super special to watch as well there’s just something about that like tactility which as a viewer let your brain just goes it just feels great\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>These are some fantastic recommendations I cannot wait to tuck in and watch them. Just to recap, we talked about The Birds, The Fog, Lost Boys, Scream, Contagion, Burnt Offerings, Pacific Heights, Zodiac and Invasion of the Body Snatchers. You’ve got 5 weeks until Halloween, how many can you see? Peter Hartlob, Culture Critic with the San Francisco Chronicle. What’s the best way that people can kind of keep up with what you’re doing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Subscribe to The Chronicle or whatever station or publication that you love, but I’m in The Chronicle all the time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Carly Severn, senior editor of audience news here at KQED. What about you? You got some spooky stuff going on?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> We do. Our desk does explainers and guides. You can see it all at KQED.org slash explainers. And while we do a lot of serious stuff, we also like to have fun too. So we have a lot of spooky season explainers, and guides coming up, including a guide to the North Bay’s historic cemeteries that you can replicate the tour, a guide to immersive experiences around the Bay Area. And for all you history nerds, we have a guide to the Spooky Feeling History Tours you can embark on too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thank you both so much. This has been such a fun morning and I can’t wait to watch some of these films. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carly Severn:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Hartlaub:\u003c/strong> Thank you for having us. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from, and everyone on team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a spooky one.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"title": "Prop 2: Strengthening California's Rainy Day Fund",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Hey Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. We’re breaking down every single statewide ballot proposition from now until October 9th. Subscribe to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones, and don’t forget to share them with your friends and family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is made possible thanks to Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll talk then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Hey Ericka.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s go back to 2014 for a second. Pharrell Williams’ ‘Happy’ was making its way up the billboard charts. Jerry Brown was governor and California was going through a really tough budget time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Brown had come back into office in the midst of the Great Recession and he was kind of obsessed with being resourceful and careful with money.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jerry Brown: \u003c/strong>Boom and bust is our lot, and we must follow the ancient advice recounted in the book of Genesis that Joseph gave to the Pharaoh. Put away your surplus during the years are great plenty, so you’ll be ready for the lean years which are sure to follow.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In 2014, Brown persuaded voters to strengthen the state’s Rainy Day Fund: The pot of money created to make sure that California is saving when the good times are good, while also paying down its debts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Now fast forward to today and Proposition 2, which asks voters to make that Rainy Day Fund even bigger.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to Prop Fest, a collaboration between the Bay and Bay Curious. We’re here to break down each of the propositions on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Today, we’re discussing proposition two. It reads like this on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 2 increases state’s rainy day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here to walk us through all this is our politics and government correspondent, Guy Marzorati. Hey, Guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Hey Ericka.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So to dive into proposition two here, first of all, there’s just a lot of, I feel like, big jargony words in here. Can you walk us through just what proposition two is all about?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, Proposition 2 is all about California’s Rainy Day Fund. So this is a fund that’s officially known as the budget stabilization account, but it’s basically where state lawmakers store our tax revenue in good times in order to save for bad budget times. Proposition two would change the laws around that rainy day fund to allow the legislature and the governor to save even more money in the rainy day fund in future years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And what exactly is a rainy day fund? Like what are the kinds of things the state might use rainy day funds for?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It just flows from this thing saving for a rainy day. But the general idea is, you know, California’s tax revenue is not going to be the exact same year to year. How much people pay in taxes is based on how much they make. And in any given year, if the economy is going well, if their stock market is going well or it’s going poorly, the amount of money that California brings in is going to fluctuate. And that’s actually even more acute in California because we have a progressive tax system, which means people who earn more income pay a higher rate of income tax. And those high earners in California, the money they’re making year to year is volatile because it really has to do in many cases with how the stock market is doing. So California, more than many other states, sees this kind of big fluctuation in year to year and how much revenue is coming in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so the idea of a rainy day fund is to say, look, in years where the money is just flowing in from taxpayers, let’s set some of it aside because we know there could very quickly be years coming where we don’t have enough money to meet all of the state’s spending commitments.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just for some context, in the last five years in California, we’ve both had a budget surplus that’s reached around $100 billion and also a budget deficit around $50 billion. It makes it really difficult year to year to project how much money is going to come in to California. Because it’s difficult to project, it can often be difficult for state lawmakers to really have a clear picture of the budget when they’re enacting it. And so Proposition 2, which would grow the rainy day fund, really offers more of kind of a safety net for state legislators as we see tax revenue fluctuate up and down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Yeah, let’s talk a little bit more about how Proposition 2 would actually change how the rainy day fund works. How much more money could it allow California to put away?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so it’s really two big changes that Proposition 2 makes around the rainy day fund. One is just growing the maximum size of the fund. Right now, the max that lawmakers can put into the rainy-day fund in any given year is 10% of general fund tax revenue. Proposition two would double that. So they’d be allowed to put in up to 20% of general-fund tax revenue in a given year. The second big change it makes is it would count saving i.e. putting money in the rainy day fund, it would not count that as spending. And that’s a really important distinction and change around the state spending limit with the effect that lawmakers would be able to save more in those kind of big budget years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>So you mentioned spending limits just now and you’re talking about something called the Gann limit, which is actually in the actual title of this proposition. So what is the Gann limit and what does it have to do with prop two?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the Gann limit was approved by California voters in the late 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>California was the epicenter of the tax quake of ‘78, and they were the shakers, Howard Jarvis and Paul Gann.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So that was a time, it was also when Proposition 13, which dramatically cut property tax rates, was passed. It was really this era of citizen initiatives really cutting back state taxation and state spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival Footage: \u003c/strong>We’ve just about had a belly full of the growth of government, the cost of government the waste.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So the Gann limit was approved by California voters. It sets the state spending limit. And if the amount of tax revenue that comes into the state in any given year exceeds that spending limit, then some of that money needs to actually be just returned directly to taxpayers. So right now with the rainy day funds, money that gets placed into the fund is counted as state spending. So if you’re counting that as state-spending, it also limits how much the state can save. And the way that Proposition 2 would change that is basically saying anytime lawmakers set aside money in the rainy day fund, it won’t count as an act of spending. So therefore, they’re gonna be able to save more.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Hmm. So, I mean, one big part of Prop 2 is about getting the state to save more when times are good. And another big part is how they use their money to pay off debts. Can you walk me through that part?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so that’s right. So basically, the state every year has to set aside money, about 1.5% of general fund revenue, half of that goes into the rainy day fund, half of those goes into paying down debts. So right now though, the debt that the state can pay down with that money is kind of limited. It either has to be the state’s unfunded pension liability, so pensions for retired state employees, or what the state will owe in the future to state employees for their health care.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>What Proposition 2 does is say that money that you’re setting aside to pay down debts, you can pay more different kinds of debts with that money. So for example, paying the federal government back for state unemployment loans. During the COVID pandemic, California borrowed more than $20 billion from the federal Government in order to pay unemployment because we had this sudden spike in unemployment. And the state still hasn’t paid back that money in full. And what Proposition two would allow is, when the state sets aside money to pay down debts, one of the ways it can use that is to pay the federal government back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll have more with KQED’s Guy Marzorati right after this break. By the way, if you appreciate the work we’re doing here on Prop Fest, consider becoming a sustaining KQED member. We can’t do this work without you. Just go to donate.kqed.org/podcasts. We’ll be right back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I guess one big question I have is why is this something that me, a voter, is being asked to decide on? Like it kind of feels like the kind of work that I might imagine our state legislature sort of deciding on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, no, that’s a that’s a great question. And this ballot measure, Proposition 2, was actually placed on the ballot by the state legislature. It was necessary to do that because Proposition 2 makes changes to laws that were passed by California voters. So not only that the rainy day fund that California voters enacted, but it also changes rules around the state’s spending limit, which was also set by California voters back in the 70s. So since voters put those rules into law, the legislature has to go back to voters to ask them for changes to those laws.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, we talked about some of the changes Prop 2 would make to how we spend and save in California, but who exactly is for this and what is their rationale for putting this on the ballot and for making these changes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so the big proponent of this idea is Governor Gavin Newsom, who has wanted, has talked about this idea for a few years of expanding the size of the rainy day fund. And Newsom has kind of talked about his idea through the lens of regret. He wished he had done this exact reform earlier to grow the rainy-day fund, so that yes, when the state had a budget surplus of about $100 billion after the pandemic, when the stock market had surged and all these tech companies were doing incredibly well and tax revenue was just flowing into the state, Newsom was like, I wish at that time I could have set aside more of that money because right around the corner, just a couple years later, the state was dealing with a huge deficit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>So there are a lot of those things that we can look back, but again, you had political capital today, you didn’t have that. You have different legislative leadership, you have different public consciousness and opinion, you have a different president, different way, you know. So all those things, you now, I don’t wallow in that…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And so he’s really pushed this idea and is backing it on the ballot. And in addition to the governor, we’ve seen kind of broad support amongst Democrats. The California Democratic Party is supporting Proposition two. And when this measure was placed on the ballot, it was almost entirely a party-line vote. So Democrats supported it. There was only one Republican in the legislature who supported putting it on a ballot. And here’s Bakersfield Senator Melissa Hurtado talking about why this is necessary.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Melissa Hurtado: \u003c/strong>Our job here as legislators, as senators, is to protect Californians. And I believe ACA 20 will do that. It will make us more disciplined, not just in saving, but also in spending.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>What about who is against this proposition, Guy, and what’s the rationale on that side of things?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so we did see opposition from Republicans in the legislature to putting this on the ballot. And we’ve seen opposition from anti-tax groups to Proposition two as well. And their argument is that this measure would make it less likely for Californians to get a refund when there’s a lot of tax revenue coming in. And that happened back in 1987, and the state refunded more than a billion dollars to taxpayers. Right now, we have that state spending limit. If the state is bringing in more money than it can spend, it has to give some of that money back to taxpayers. If Proposition two passes, the state can instead set more of that money aside into the rainy day fund. And so you’ve seen opponents of Proposition two say, look, the point of this state spending limit that voters enacted in the late 70s was if more money is coming into the state, voters, taxpayers, residents should get it back. If Proposition two passes, less of that money in that situation will go back to taxpayers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>We don’t have a rainy day fund in California. The voters thought they were passing a rainy-day fund, but they didn’t get a rainy–day fund.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>And here’s what Republican Assemblymember Joe Patterson had to say about this idea, this rainy day fund measure on the ballot back when it was being debated in the legislature in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Joe Patterson: \u003c/strong>All this does is create a bigger slush fund for money to be used the following years instead of returning money to the taxpayer, it just creates a bigger slash fund…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And looking at campaign spending on this measure so far, Guy, what are we seeing there? Is any group pouring any kind of money into this?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>So yeah, we’re really not seeing any spending on either side with Prop two. There is Reform California, which is a conservative group headed by Republican Assemblymember, Carl DeMaio. They’re opposing kind of a suite of ballot measures, including Prop two and Prop three, which a taxation measure. And so they’re actively trying to get the word out in opposition to Proposition two, but we really haven’t seen any kind of big spending really on either side of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I mean, as we’ve just been talking about, this is sort of a wonky, confusing, very jargony feeling proposition. I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Is this proposition popular among voters so far, or do you think it’ll pass?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>It does pose a couple interesting questions, I think, to California voters, where you kind of see this like collision of eras at play in this measure. Again, a lot of the the ballot measures that limited state spending and limited state taxes, those date back to the 1970s, where you did see this kind of citizen uprising against taxation and spending. But those rules are still on the books today. And some of them, supporters of Prop two would make it harder to save. And then you come to this area that we’re in. In California budgeting right now where we have these huge volatility swings because we’re relying so much on top earners. And I think the idea behind Proposition two is adapt to that new reality by being able to save more, although opponents would say it’s kind of betraying a lot of the promises that voters wanted in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Well, Guy, thank you so much as always for breaking this one down. Appreciate it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Marzorati: \u003c/strong>Yeah, thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a yes vote on this measure means rules for building state budget reserves and paying down extra state debts would change. As a result, state budget reserve would be higher. A no vote on the measure means rules for building State budget reserves and paying extra state debt would not change.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s it for our latest episode of PropFest, a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious. We’re breaking down every single statewide ballot proposition from now until October 9th. Subscribe to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss out on the next ones, and don’t forget to share them with your friends and family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Prop Fest is made possible thanks to Alan Montecillo, Gabriela Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at kqed.org/prop fest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you value podcasts like this one, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Support for The Bay is provided in part by the Osher Production Fund. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen Price. We’ll be back tomorrow with an explainer on Proposition 3, which makes an existing tax on high incomes permanent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We’ll talk then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco-Northern California Local.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Prop 1: Authorizes California to Issue a $11.25 Billion Bond to Fund Affordable Housing",
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"content": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Are you ready for this, Ericka?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today in our first installment, we’re going through Proposition 1, a housing bond with KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Aditi. Hey, thanks for having me. Let’s start at the top level. What does Proposition one do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">KQED.org/PropFest\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today in our first installment, we’re going through Proposition 1, a housing bond with KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Aditi. Hey, thanks for having me. Let’s start at the top level. What does Proposition one do?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Proposition 1 would authorize the state to issue bonds to fund affordable housing programs.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>When asked in a recent statewide survey, what’s the most important issue facing Californians today? The top responses were affordability, cost of living, housing costs, and availability.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In other words, nothing new to see here. These are issues that California has struggled with for a long time. On the November ballot this year are a few initiatives that legislators or interest groups think could help. Among them is Proposition 1, which would allow the state to borrow $11.25 billion for housing programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it reads on your ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Prop 1, authorizes bonds for housing affordability programs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>I’m Erika Cruz Guevara, host of The Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And I’m Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious. Welcome to PropFest. For the next few weeks, our teams at The Bay and Bay Curious are bringing you breakdowns of each statewide proposition on the California ballot so you can vote with confidence in the November election.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>There are 14 propositions on the ballot this year, and we’ll be taking you through all of them between now and October 9th. We’ll be looking at how they got on the ballet, the arguments for and against each one, talk about how things could play out if they pass, and the money fueling it all.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Are you ready for this, Ericka?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Let’s do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today in our first installment, we’re going through Proposition 1, a housing bond with KQED’s housing reporter, Adhiti Bandlamudi. Welcome, Aditi. Hey, thanks for having me. Let’s start at the top level. What does Proposition one do?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>So Prop 1 issues an $11.25 billion bond, mostly for the construction and preservation of affordable housing. Included in that $11,25 billion, there’s a $1.25 million portion that goes towards the CalVet home loan program, which helps veterans become homeowners. The legislative analyst’s office did a report on Prop 1, and it says the money from this bond could build up to 40,000 rental units. And it could help 40,000 households buy a home. So in total, it could help more than 80,000 families stay housed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All right, so we’re at the beginning of PropFest. We’re kind of getting our brains in the right place for all this stuff. Can you remind us how bonds work?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, so most of this bond, about $10 billion, is a general obligation bond, also called a GO bond. A state-issued GO bond means that the government will borrow money from investors or anyone who buys the bonds and will then pay it back with interest over the next 25 years out of California’s general fund. It’s kind of like a mortgage. And then The $1.25 billion for the Veterans Home Buying Assistance Program. That is also a go-bond, but it’s self-supporting, meaning that it’ll be repaid through home loans that veterans take out through the program.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea how that $11.25 billion will be spent if this passes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It is going to be split into a bunch of different programs. So let me break it down. So a very large chunk, about 5.1 billion, goes towards the multifamily housing program, which is this really big state program for affordable housing development. Some of the units that are built under this program have to be available for extremely low income households who are at risk of becoming homeless. And that money can be used towards the construction, rehabilitation, or preservation of affordable housing. About a billion dollars goes towards supportive housing through the multifamily housing program. Supportive housing basically, it’s housing that comes with wraparound services, stuff like drug abuse support, counseling, help finding a job, and that’s specifically for people who were chronically homeless or who are at risk of becoming chronically harmless. The bond also goes towards a bunch of other programs like making existing cities more dense, housing for farm workers, students, tribes, and other groups. And then, as we talked about before, there’s 1.25 billion which goes towards the CalVet program, and then another 1.1 billion that goes towards programs which promote home ownership for other groups\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Wow, so really funding a pretty big number of programs there. Very much so. This proposition was placed on the ballot by the California legislature. So we know it’s something that at least the majority of our elected officials want to see passed. How does Prop 1 play into larger goals that the state has for housing?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>This proposition has been many years in the making and affordable housing advocates say, it’s a long time coming. So there was a bond voters passed in 2018 that was called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act. It was also called Prop 1. There’s no deja vu, like that is very similar to this year’s bond. But the 2018 bond was for $4 billion. Similar to this year’s bond that was split into funding for affordable housing and the CalVet program. That funding very quickly ran out in 2023 due to overwhelming demand. Housing advocates say we need more money for these programs and so this year, bond money would basically replace those exhausted funds. I talked with assembly member Buffy Wicks. She represents Berkeley and she’s been working on getting this bond on the ballot for the past four years. She says that every election cycle, lawmakers will fight for a bond for one cause or another, whether it’s housing, climate, schools, transportation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>But there’s really only so much bond debt we can take on as a state So we want to be mindful because every dollar we’ve put into a bond is we’re sort of borrowing from our future self\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>And last election cycle, the housing bond lost out to the climate bond and won about school facilities. From then until now, WIC says that money for affordable housing got really tight, partially because the state has allocated less and less for these programs in the state budget in recent years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Buffy Wicks: \u003c/strong>This year, the housing bond really became the priority because we’re running out of these resources. And so it was very clear from the assembly, the Senate and the governor that this was the top priority this year is to get it on the ballot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Wicks says there are about 40,000 shovel-ready affordable housing projects ready to break ground, but they need just a little bit more money to close their financing and actually put the shovels in the ground. She said that this bond could bridge that funding gap for those projects.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return, we’ll learn who is supporting the measure and hear from the opposition. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back with more on Proposition 1, a bond for housing affordability programs. Adhiti, who is supporting Prop 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are a lot of Democratic lawmakers who supported this bond when it was working its way through the legislature, but there are also a bunch of organizations that support it, including the California Association of Veterans, ACLU California Action, United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America, the California Apartment Association, and so many others. Governor Gavin Newsom also supports this bill. And what about the opposition? So, there isn’t a formal opposition campaign. But there are a handful of Republican lawmakers who voted against the bill while it was in the legislature. Their main concern is that number one, it’s called the Veterans and Affordable Housing Bond Act of 2026, but only 1.25 billion out of the 11 billion goes towards veterans. Here’s state assembly member Carl DeMaio. He represents San Diego. He was speaking on the assembly floor back in June.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carl DeMaio: \u003c/strong>Let’s get the vets and let’s put them front and center and say it’s all about the vats. Everyone loves veterans, shameful. The window dressing on an absolutely awful package.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mm, I see, so arguing it’s not right to have the word veterans in there when only about 11% of this bond measure is actually for veterans.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, that’s their argument. Their other concern is that the state would be borrowing money if this bond passes, and that could be bad news for future taxpayers. Assemblymember David Tangipa, he represents Fresno. He also spoke about that on that same assembly floor session.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Tangipa: \u003c/strong>Why do we need to borrow money? If we wanted to appropriate money right now to take care of our veterans, to make affordable housing, you would do so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are some Californians who are worried about taking on debt. Yes, these programs will be funded, but the legislative analyst office predicts that it would cost about 500 to 600 million annually to repay this bond for the next 25 years. That’s about a quarter of a percent of the state’s total general fund budget. And since the state has to pay interest, the total cost of this bond would be 15% more than if the state just paid upfront with the money that it already has.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Interesting. We should also mention that this isn’t the only housing bond on the ballot and not the only one you’re covering.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>That’s right, there’s another bond I’m covering, Prop 37, and it focuses specifically on middle-class homeownership. I think that says something really interesting about how people are feeling about housing affordability right now. It’s clear that this is a top issue for lawmakers, but it’s also a reflection of what they’re hearing from their constituents. It’s clearly a concern for people. And in my conversation with Assemblymember Wix, she mentioned that, you know, if Prop 37… Passes, it could work in tandem with Prop 1 if voters approve both of them. Because it would basically mean that both groups, both low-income residents and middle-class residents, could get the much needed help to afford housing. And it also feels like it’s building off of this national momentum. Congress recently passed the 21st Century Road to Housing Act, which is a huge package of bills, which is also trying to stimulate homeownership, but also home building. And so Wicks is saying that if everything kind of happens and voters approve all of this, it could have a really nice compounding effect, potentially.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Who is spending to support or oppose Prop 1?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Given the most recent data, the spending is pretty lopsided. So $2.65 million have been spent to support the proposition. That mostly comes from affordable housing groups. Only $7,500 have been spent to oppose this prop, and that mostly come from Reform California, an organization led by Republican assembly member Carl DeMaio, who we heard from earlier.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Adhiti Bandlamudi is a housing reporter at KQED. Thanks, Adhiti.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Thanks for having me, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In a nutshell, a vote yes on Prop 1 means you want California to issue $11.25 billion in bonds for all those housing projects we talked about, targeting primarily low-income families and veterans. And a vote no means you don’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>That’s it for Proposition 1, coming tomorrow is Propositions 2 and 3, so make sure you’re subscribed to The Bay and Bay Curious so you don’t miss a beat. And stay tuned over the next few weeks as we make our way through all 14 statewide propositions.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Whew, we got a ways to go, Erica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>Laughs\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Prop Fest is a collaboration between The Bay and Bay Curious podcasts. It is produced by: Alan Montecillo, Ericka Cruz Guevarra, Gabriella Glueck, Pauline Bartolone, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>We get extra support from, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You can find audio and transcripts for this series at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/propfest\">KQED.org/PropFest\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you appreciate Prop Fest, please consider becoming a sustaining member of KQED. We cant do this work without you! Become a member at \u003ca href=\"https://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra: \u003c/strong>And I’m Ericka Cruz Guevarra. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "a-trip-to-the-remote-island-lighthouse-in-the-middle-of-san-francisco-bay",
"title": "A Trip to the Remote Island Lighthouse in the Middle of San Francisco Bay",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few years ago, a friend sent me the link for a job listing that seemed like an absolute dream. The opening was for a resident innkeeper at a bed and breakfast on an island in the middle of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a>. Even better, the B&B was housed in a 152-year-old working Victorian lighthouse! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fantasy of East Brother Light Station stayed with me. So I was delighted when a Bay Curious listener named Kathleen Taylor wrote in, looking to learn more about the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lighthouse keepers\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>It was small, less than an acre in size, but it was land the U.S. government already owned. Construction began in 1873.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The exterior of the light station features gingerbread trim, scrollwork and a generous second-floor porch. Not the standard-issue government building we’ve come to expect today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lightkeepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The innkeepers also had to wipe the glass panes of the lantern room with dry towels to keep moisture away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On foggy nights, the keepers’ jobs were doubly hard. They had to run the fog signal, too, which sits in another building on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beyond the core responsibilities, keepers kept up with a long list of chores: cooking, cleaning, maintenance and repairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066564\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066563\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066563\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Stenmark era\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the kids grew older, the government paid for a teacher to live on the island for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The end of lighthouse keepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station, most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The original used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene,” Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One big change came in 1934 when electricity arrived on the island via an underwater cable that connected it to shore. A lightkeeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night — greatly reducing their daily chore load. The steam-powered fog signal was replaced with a diaphonic horn that can still be operated today and is one of only eight like it in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think everybody looked at it and [thought] it was just too much,” said Butt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066567\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabilitating everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>They also try to make meals part of the historical experience, using ingredients the keepers would have received as part of their rations — like potatoes, rice and salted pork.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have recipes from the Lighthouse Keeper’s Manual from 1891 that had recipes for how to stretch your rations. Last night we served for the first course a corn chowder that is from that original Lighthouse Keeper’s handbook,” La Vigne said. “Although their recipe was incredibly bland, and I spruced it up a lot.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, historically inspired … but for a modern palate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guests sleep in rooms neatly decorated with antiques. Most rooms are named after the view you see from the room, so there’s West Brother (the neighboring island), Marin Room, San Francisco Room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A more modest room is out in the fog signal building — a popular choice for returning guests looking for a different experience, Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of the clientele are couples looking for a romantic getaway, but the house is also regularly rented out entirely by groups for birthdays, anniversaries or themed experiences.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had two murder mystery dinner parties in the past month,” La Vigne said. “Both parties dressed up. They were in character the whole time. It was 1920 the whole time they were here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the morning, before guests depart, they offer a demonstration of the fog signal — I can attest, it’s loud!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s something dreamy about lighthouses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their symbolism. A literal light in the darkness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In me, lighthouses stir something nostalgic. A time before GPS and radar — when navigation was done with charts and stars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, many lighthouses across the United States have become tourism attractions, like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and the St. Augustine Lighthouse in Florida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a lighthouse near San Francisco that offers an experience like none other. Not just a quick trip to the top, but an opportunity to live like a lighthouse keeper of yore!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kathleen got to wondering a lot of things about this lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So today we’re on a mission for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Step one! We have to get to the lighthouse. At a marina north of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, Kathleen and I make our way toward a small boat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There we meet Danielle La Vigne and Rae Colvin — the two keepers currently living on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Oh, you guys can hop on board. Our insurance company does ask that you wear those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships had to skirt around Point San Pablo — where our little boat just departed from. Rae Colvin explains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And they put a lighthouse out here because the topography under the water is pretty interesting. There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the open ocean off to the side that you can see averages out to about 15 feet deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The people who owned the land on the East Bay there didn’t want to sell to the government to let them build a lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After years of trying and failing to get the landowners to relent, the government changed course. Just offshore was \u003cem>East Brother Island\u003c/em> — a speck of land really, smaller than an acre — but it was enough. And better yet, it was land the U.S. government already owned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Workers blasted sandstone from the top of the island to create a level plot. A foundation went in, walls went up, and in less than a year the six-room Victorian light station was complete. The design is quite striking…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ornamental woodwork on it, and it’s three stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The buildings surround a low white dome covering something beneath the pavement. Danielle explains…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> How often do you get groups that rent the whole island? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There was an assistant keeper who got put down in the logbook as a drunken screw-up. He’s one of my favorites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station made it onto the National Register of Historic Places in 1971. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom went out to the island in 1978.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> We had to do electrical work, we had to do plumbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A history tour with Rae.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A few years ago, a friend sent me the link for a job listing that seemed like an absolute dream. The opening was for a resident innkeeper at a bed and breakfast on an island in the middle of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a>. Even better, the B&B was housed in a 152-year-old working Victorian lighthouse! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the fantasy of East Brother Light Station stayed with me. So I was delighted when a Bay Curious listener named Kathleen Taylor wrote in, looking to learn more about the place. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lighthouse keepers\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The innkeepers also had to wipe the glass panes of the lantern room with dry towels to keep moisture away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On foggy nights, the keepers’ jobs were doubly hard. They had to run the fog signal, too, which sits in another building on the island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Beyond the core responsibilities, keepers kept up with a long list of chores: cooking, cleaning, maintenance and repairs. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066563\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066563\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The Stenmark era",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When the kids grew older, the government paid for a teacher to live on the island for a time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station, most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The original used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene,” Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One big change came in 1934 when electricity arrived on the island via an underwater cable that connected it to shore. A lightkeeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night — greatly reducing their daily chore load. The steam-powered fog signal was replaced with a diaphonic horn that can still be operated today and is one of only eight like it in the world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think everybody looked at it and [thought] it was just too much,” said Butt. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabilitating everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Visiting East Brother Light Station today",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They also try to make meals part of the historical experience, using ingredients the keepers would have received as part of their rations — like potatoes, rice and salted pork.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have recipes from the Lighthouse Keeper’s Manual from 1891 that had recipes for how to stretch your rations. Last night we served for the first course a corn chowder that is from that original Lighthouse Keeper’s handbook,” La Vigne said. “Although their recipe was incredibly bland, and I spruced it up a lot.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, historically inspired … but for a modern palate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Guests sleep in rooms neatly decorated with antiques. Most rooms are named after the view you see from the room, so there’s West Brother (the neighboring island), Marin Room, San Francisco Room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A more modest room is out in the fog signal building — a popular choice for returning guests looking for a different experience, Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most of the clientele are couples looking for a romantic getaway, but the house is also regularly rented out entirely by groups for birthdays, anniversaries or themed experiences.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We had two murder mystery dinner parties in the past month,” La Vigne said. “Both parties dressed up. They were in character the whole time. It was 1920 the whole time they were here.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s something dreamy about lighthouses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their symbolism. A literal light in the darkness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In me, lighthouses stir something nostalgic. A time before GPS and radar — when navigation was done with charts and stars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, many lighthouses across the United States have become tourism attractions, like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and the St. Augustine Lighthouse in Florida.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s a lighthouse near San Francisco that offers an experience like none other. Not just a quick trip to the top, but an opportunity to live like a lighthouse keeper of yore!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kathleen got to wondering a lot of things about this lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So today we’re on a mission for answers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Step one! We have to get to the lighthouse. At a marina north of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, Kathleen and I make our way toward a small boat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There we meet Danielle La Vigne and Rae Colvin — the two keepers currently living on the island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Oh, you guys can hop on board. Our insurance company does ask that you wear those.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ships had to skirt around Point San Pablo — where our little boat just departed from. Rae Colvin explains.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And they put a lighthouse out here because the topography under the water is pretty interesting. There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the open ocean off to the side that you can see averages out to about 15 feet deep. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The people who owned the land on the East Bay there didn’t want to sell to the government to let them build a lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After years of trying and failing to get the landowners to relent, the government changed course. Just offshore was \u003cem>East Brother Island\u003c/em> — a speck of land really, smaller than an acre — but it was enough. And better yet, it was land the U.S. government already owned. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Workers blasted sandstone from the top of the island to create a level plot. A foundation went in, walls went up, and in less than a year the six-room Victorian light station was complete. The design is quite striking…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ornamental woodwork on it, and it’s three stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The buildings surround a low white dome covering something beneath the pavement. Danielle explains…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> How often do you get groups that rent the whole island? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There was an assistant keeper who got put down in the logbook as a drunken screw-up. He’s one of my favorites.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station made it onto the National Register of Historic Places in 1971. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom went out to the island in 1978.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> We had to do electrical work, we had to do plumbing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A history tour with Rae.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "East Brother Light Station is a gold-rush era relic that was almost torn down. Spending the night there can feel like time traveling.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few years ago, a friend sent me the link for a job listing that seemed like an absolute dream. The opening was for a resident innkeeper at a bed and breakfast on an island in the middle of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a>. Even better, the B&B was housed in a 152-year-old working Victorian lighthouse! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fantasy of East Brother Light Station stayed with me. So I was delighted when a Bay Curious listener named Kathleen Taylor wrote in, looking to learn more about the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lighthouse keepers\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>It was small, less than an acre in size, but it was land the U.S. government already owned. Construction began in 1873.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The exterior of the light station features gingerbread trim, scrollwork and a generous second-floor porch. Not the standard-issue government building we’ve come to expect today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lightkeepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The innkeepers also had to wipe the glass panes of the lantern room with dry towels to keep moisture away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On foggy nights, the keepers’ jobs were doubly hard. They had to run the fog signal, too, which sits in another building on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beyond the core responsibilities, keepers kept up with a long list of chores: cooking, cleaning, maintenance and repairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066564\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066563\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066563\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Stenmark era\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the kids grew older, the government paid for a teacher to live on the island for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The end of lighthouse keepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station, most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The original used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene,” Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One big change came in 1934 when electricity arrived on the island via an underwater cable that connected it to shore. A lightkeeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night — greatly reducing their daily chore load. The steam-powered fog signal was replaced with a diaphonic horn that can still be operated today and is one of only eight like it in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think everybody looked at it and [thought] it was just too much,” said Butt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066567\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabilitating everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>They also try to make meals part of the historical experience, using ingredients the keepers would have received as part of their rations — like potatoes, rice and salted pork.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have recipes from the Lighthouse Keeper’s Manual from 1891 that had recipes for how to stretch your rations. Last night we served for the first course a corn chowder that is from that original Lighthouse Keeper’s handbook,” La Vigne said. “Although their recipe was incredibly bland, and I spruced it up a lot.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, historically inspired … but for a modern palate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guests sleep in rooms neatly decorated with antiques. Most rooms are named after the view you see from the room, so there’s West Brother (the neighboring island), Marin Room, San Francisco Room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A more modest room is out in the fog signal building — a popular choice for returning guests looking for a different experience, Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of the clientele are couples looking for a romantic getaway, but the house is also regularly rented out entirely by groups for birthdays, anniversaries or themed experiences.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had two murder mystery dinner parties in the past month,” La Vigne said. “Both parties dressed up. They were in character the whole time. It was 1920 the whole time they were here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the morning, before guests depart, they offer a demonstration of the fog signal — I can attest, it’s loud!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s something dreamy about lighthouses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their symbolism. A literal light in the darkness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In me, lighthouses stir something nostalgic. A time before GPS and radar — when navigation was done with charts and stars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, many lighthouses across the United States have become tourism attractions, like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and the St. Augustine Lighthouse in Florida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a lighthouse near San Francisco that offers an experience like none other. Not just a quick trip to the top, but an opportunity to live like a lighthouse keeper of yore!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kathleen got to wondering a lot of things about this lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So today we’re on a mission for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Step one! We have to get to the lighthouse. At a marina north of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, Kathleen and I make our way toward a small boat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There we meet Danielle La Vigne and Rae Colvin — the two keepers currently living on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Oh, you guys can hop on board. Our insurance company does ask that you wear those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships had to skirt around Point San Pablo — where our little boat just departed from. Rae Colvin explains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And they put a lighthouse out here because the topography under the water is pretty interesting. There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the open ocean off to the side that you can see averages out to about 15 feet deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The people who owned the land on the East Bay there didn’t want to sell to the government to let them build a lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After years of trying and failing to get the landowners to relent, the government changed course. Just offshore was \u003cem>East Brother Island\u003c/em> — a speck of land really, smaller than an acre — but it was enough. And better yet, it was land the U.S. government already owned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Workers blasted sandstone from the top of the island to create a level plot. A foundation went in, walls went up, and in less than a year the six-room Victorian light station was complete. The design is quite striking…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ornamental woodwork on it, and it’s three stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The buildings surround a low white dome covering something beneath the pavement. Danielle explains…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> How often do you get groups that rent the whole island? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There was an assistant keeper who got put down in the logbook as a drunken screw-up. He’s one of my favorites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station made it onto the National Register of Historic Places in 1971. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom went out to the island in 1978.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> We had to do electrical work, we had to do plumbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A history tour with Rae.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-are-there-so-many-public-golf-courses-in-the-bay-area",
"title": "Why Are There So Many Public Golf Courses in the Bay Area?",
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"headTitle": "Why Are There So Many Public Golf Courses in the Bay Area? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, Oakland resident Mary Newson would hike regularly in the parks up in the Oakland and Berkeley hills. It was a pleasant way to get outside, and there was no one around — even on a usually busy golf course near \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/anthony-chabot\">Anthony Chabot Regional Park.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There were deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and all these animals that had just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it,” she said. “That was really a beautiful thing to see.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083077\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers practice at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t sure how they worked, and if there was any sort of financial relationship, administrative relationship between the larger park and the golf course that sort of made them work together,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As it turns out, golf — and public golf, in particular — has a storied history in the Bay Area. And apart from a few conversions, mostly of private golf courses, these public greens are unlikely to be going anywhere soon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#private\">The difference between public and private golf courses\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#make-money\">How public courses do or don’t make money for local parks\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#converting-golf-courses\">Golf course conversions underway in the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visit-a-golf-course\">What to know if you’re visiting a public golf course for the first time\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is the history of golf courses in the Bay Area?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That included influential city leaders like John McLaren, the “father of Golden Gate Park,” who was a Scot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time,” Harris said. “It’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and, for that matter, in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"private\">What makes a public golf course different from a private one?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Public golf courses are those owned by local governments or parks districts. In the Bay Area, they tend to be inside or next to public parks you may know or frequent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"make-money\">Do golf courses make money for public parks?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"converting-golf-courses\">Have there been any talks of converting golf courses to other uses?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s no widespread movement to convert golf courses in the Bay Area into other uses. But there are two notable examples of private golf courses undergoing their own transformations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083082\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083082\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers play a game at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083078\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golf balls line the ground at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visit-a-golf-course\">Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And what are your goals for today on the golf course?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Lily, great to meet you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Of course!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To answer that, Richard says, we have to dig into history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Golf traces its origins to Scotland — Richard explains.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Scottish music plays\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Originated in what they called the Links Land, which is the land between the cities and the coast, which was not much use for anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>John McLaren was a Scot. John McLaren liked golf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>And then another Scot to design Sharp Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, knows that firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s Outdoors reporter Sarah Wright is very familiar with the condemnation golf courses sometimes face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>That was incredible, I don’t even know where it went! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>It sliced to the right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>After around an hour, we called it quits. I asked Mary how she thought it went.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I know that I’ll be practicing my swing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There were deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and all these animals that had just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it,” she said. “That was really a beautiful thing to see.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083077\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers practice at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t sure how they worked, and if there was any sort of financial relationship, administrative relationship between the larger park and the golf course that sort of made them work together,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As it turns out, golf — and public golf, in particular — has a storied history in the Bay Area. And apart from a few conversions, mostly of private golf courses, these public greens are unlikely to be going anywhere soon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#make-money\">How public courses do or don’t make money for local parks\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That included influential city leaders like John McLaren, the “father of Golden Gate Park,” who was a Scot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time,” Harris said. “It’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and, for that matter, in the world.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"private\">What makes a public golf course different from a private one?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Public golf courses are those owned by local governments or parks districts. In the Bay Area, they tend to be inside or next to public parks you may know or frequent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Do golf courses make money for public parks?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Have there been any talks of converting golf courses to other uses?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s no widespread movement to convert golf courses in the Bay Area into other uses. But there are two notable examples of private golf courses undergoing their own transformations. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visit-a-golf-course\">Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And what are your goals for today on the golf course?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Lily, great to meet you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Of course!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To answer that, Richard says, we have to dig into history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Golf traces its origins to Scotland — Richard explains.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Scottish music plays\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Originated in what they called the Links Land, which is the land between the cities and the coast, which was not much use for anything. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>John McLaren was a Scot. John McLaren liked golf. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>And then another Scot to design Sharp Park…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, knows that firsthand. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s Outdoors reporter Sarah Wright is very familiar with the condemnation golf courses sometimes face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>That was incredible, I don’t even know where it went! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>It sliced to the right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>After around an hour, we called it quits. I asked Mary how she thought it went.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I know that I’ll be practicing my swing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Public golf’s storied Bay Area history and why its picturesque courses endure today.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, Oakland resident Mary Newson would hike regularly in the parks up in the Oakland and Berkeley hills. It was a pleasant way to get outside, and there was no one around — even on a usually busy golf course near \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/anthony-chabot\">Anthony Chabot Regional Park.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There were deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and all these animals that had just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it,” she said. “That was really a beautiful thing to see.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083077\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers practice at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t sure how they worked, and if there was any sort of financial relationship, administrative relationship between the larger park and the golf course that sort of made them work together,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As it turns out, golf — and public golf, in particular — has a storied history in the Bay Area. And apart from a few conversions, mostly of private golf courses, these public greens are unlikely to be going anywhere soon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#private\">The difference between public and private golf courses\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#make-money\">How public courses do or don’t make money for local parks\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#converting-golf-courses\">Golf course conversions underway in the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visit-a-golf-course\">What to know if you’re visiting a public golf course for the first time\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is the history of golf courses in the Bay Area?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That included influential city leaders like John McLaren, the “father of Golden Gate Park,” who was a Scot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time,” Harris said. “It’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and, for that matter, in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"private\">What makes a public golf course different from a private one?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Public golf courses are those owned by local governments or parks districts. In the Bay Area, they tend to be inside or next to public parks you may know or frequent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"make-money\">Do golf courses make money for public parks?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"converting-golf-courses\">Have there been any talks of converting golf courses to other uses?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s no widespread movement to convert golf courses in the Bay Area into other uses. But there are two notable examples of private golf courses undergoing their own transformations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083082\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083082\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers play a game at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083078\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golf balls line the ground at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visit-a-golf-course\">Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And what are your goals for today on the golf course?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Lily, great to meet you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Of course!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To answer that, Richard says, we have to dig into history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Golf traces its origins to Scotland — Richard explains.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Scottish music plays\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Originated in what they called the Links Land, which is the land between the cities and the coast, which was not much use for anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>John McLaren was a Scot. John McLaren liked golf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>And then another Scot to design Sharp Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, knows that firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s Outdoors reporter Sarah Wright is very familiar with the condemnation golf courses sometimes face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>That was incredible, I don’t even know where it went! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>It sliced to the right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>After around an hour, we called it quits. I asked Mary how she thought it went.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I know that I’ll be practicing my swing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-san-francisco-rock-climbing-spot-known-for-its-shiny-surface",
"title": "The San Francisco Rock Climbing Spot Known For Its Shiny Surface",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1500\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1500px) 100vw, 1500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley. ((Courtesy Jordan Schultz))\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It takes me a moment to “see” it the way Jordan does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Whether you’re a seasoned mountaineer, or a new climber, like Ravi, a neighborhood rock can feel just as magical as Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What’d you think of that glass section in the middle there? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> The glass section was definitely interesting. That was wild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think? Should we, uh, pull these ropes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds or rope falling from a great height\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Boom. That’s it. That’s the sound of the end of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Classical music plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>That song is the perfect soundtrack. Was that your cellphone?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to us by KQED reporter Francesca Fenzi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve got two requests for you on our way out. First, Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and VOTE in our public voting round to help us decide what story we should tackle next. All it takes is a few seconds and one click.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Second, consider becoming a member of KQED and supporting Bay Curious. We are relying more on listener donations than we have in the past and every dollar helps us to keep bringing you stories like this one. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> to get started.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n"
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{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "A visible record of Bay Area geology",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n"
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n"
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "How a Berkeley park changed climbing history",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "A safer way to fall",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n[baycuriousquestion]\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Whether you’re a seasoned mountaineer, or a new climber, like Ravi, a neighborhood rock can feel just as magical as Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What’d you think of that glass section in the middle there? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> The glass section was definitely interesting. That was wild. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think? Should we, uh, pull these ropes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds or rope falling from a great height\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Boom. That’s it. That’s the sound of the end of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Classical music plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>That song is the perfect soundtrack. Was that your cellphone?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to us by KQED reporter Francesca Fenzi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’ve got two requests for you on our way out. First, Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and VOTE in our public voting round to help us decide what story we should tackle next. All it takes is a few seconds and one click.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Second, consider becoming a member of KQED and supporting Bay Curious. We are relying more on listener donations than we have in the past and every dollar helps us to keep bringing you stories like this one. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> to get started.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Beaver Street’s shiny slab isn’t just a geologic curiosity — it’s part of a long legacy for Bay Area climbers who have used city rocks and buildings to train for the heights of Yosemite Valley.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1500\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1500px) 100vw, 1500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley. ((Courtesy Jordan Schultz))\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It takes me a moment to “see” it the way Jordan does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Whether you’re a seasoned mountaineer, or a new climber, like Ravi, a neighborhood rock can feel just as magical as Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What’d you think of that glass section in the middle there? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> The glass section was definitely interesting. That was wild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think? Should we, uh, pull these ropes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds or rope falling from a great height\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Boom. That’s it. That’s the sound of the end of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Classical music plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>That song is the perfect soundtrack. Was that your cellphone?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to us by KQED reporter Francesca Fenzi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve got two requests for you on our way out. First, Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and VOTE in our public voting round to help us decide what story we should tackle next. All it takes is a few seconds and one click.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Second, consider becoming a member of KQED and supporting Bay Curious. We are relying more on listener donations than we have in the past and every dollar helps us to keep bringing you stories like this one. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> to get started.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-is-piedmont-a-separate-city-from-oakland-2",
"title": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? Bay Curious Explains",
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"headTitle": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? Bay Curious Explains | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland City Hall in Oakland on April 28, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094662\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094662\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1273\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-1536x988.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Piedmont Springs Park Club House, Oakland, California, Postcard from 1898 – 1931 \u003ccite>(Sepia Times/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland City Hall in Oakland on April 28, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094662\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094662\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1273\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-1536x988.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Piedmont Springs Park Club House, Oakland, California, Postcard from 1898 – 1931 \u003ccite>(Sepia Times/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Welcome to Anchorage 9: The Giant Ship Parking Lot You Pass Every Day",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Standard Oil collision\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"950\" height=\"753\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 950px) 100vw, 950px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other prominent anchorages\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1616\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Constant dredging\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Standard Oil collision",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Other prominent anchorages",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other prominent anchorages\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Constant dredging",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Constant dredging\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n[baycuriousquestion]\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Ships entering and exiting San Francisco Bay have to follow strict safety protocols. They can only “park” in designated areas called anchorages that are managed by Vessel Traffic Services.",
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"title": "Welcome to Anchorage 9: The Giant Ship Parking Lot You Pass Every Day | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Standard Oil collision\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"950\" height=\"753\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 950px) 100vw, 950px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other prominent anchorages\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1616\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Constant dredging\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-bruce-lee-fight-in-oakland-that-became-martial-arts-legend",
"title": "The Bruce Lee Fight in Oakland That Became Martial Arts Legend",
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"headTitle": "The Bruce Lee Fight in Oakland That Became Martial Arts Legend | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though they were peers and close friends, Greglon’s father was one of Bruce’s most fervent disciples.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BKNDc48N4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1442\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1442px) 100vw, 1442px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1338\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1539\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "The ‘Showdown in Oakland’",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.”\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.”\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The aftermath of the fight",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco, but found his people in the East Bay. His legendary 1964 Oakland fight reshaped his martial arts philosophy and stoked rumors about race and kung fu.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though they were peers and close friends, Greglon’s father was one of Bruce’s most fervent disciples.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/k2BKNDc48N4'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/k2BKNDc48N4'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1442\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1442px) 100vw, 1442px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1338\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1539\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "__life-and-legacy-of-ishi-last-of-californias-yahi-tribe",
"title": "The Life and Legacy of Ishi, the Last of California's Yahi Tribe",
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"headTitle": "The Life and Legacy of Ishi, the Last of California’s Yahi Tribe | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious spoke with KQED’s Katherine Monahan about Ishi’s life and legacy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6827825325\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious spoke with KQED’s Katherine Monahan about Ishi’s life and legacy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6827825325\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay",
"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay",
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"headTitle": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.[aside postID=news_12088210 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-11-BL-KQED.jpg']“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "San Francisco Bay is notorious in the shipping world for its tricky waters. That’s why bar pilots — specially trained mariners — board every ship entering or exiting the bay and guide it to safety.",
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"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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},
"californiareport": {
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"info": "KQED’s statewide radio news program providing daily coverage of issues, trends and public policy decisions.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareport",
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"order": 8
},
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},
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"info": "Every week, The California Report Magazine takes you on a road trip for the ears: to visit the places and meet the people who make California unique. The in-depth storytelling podcast from the California Report.",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 9
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"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
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"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
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"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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