Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers
Homelessness, Mental Illness and Drug Addiction: Prop. 1 Takes Aim at All 3
Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland?
Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco?
As HIV Rates Fall Nationally, Latinx Communities Remain Disproportionately Impacted. Why?
100 Years of Mystery at the Winchester House in San Jose
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Why Doesn't the Bay Area Have a Pro Women's Sports Team?
Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot?
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Send her an email if you have strong feelings about whether Fairfield and Suisun City are the Bay.","avatar":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/25e5ab8d3d53fad2dcc7bb2b5c506b1a?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twitter":"NotoriousECG","facebook":null,"instagram":null,"linkedin":null,"sites":[{"site":"arts","roles":["subscriber"]},{"site":"news","roles":["editor"]},{"site":"futureofyou","roles":["subscriber"]},{"site":"stateofhealth","roles":["subscriber"]},{"site":"science","roles":["editor"]},{"site":"forum","roles":["subscriber"]}],"headData":{"title":"Ericka Cruz Guevarra | KQED","description":"Producer, The Bay Podcast","ogImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/25e5ab8d3d53fad2dcc7bb2b5c506b1a?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/25e5ab8d3d53fad2dcc7bb2b5c506b1a?s=600&d=blank&r=g"},"isLoading":false,"link":"/author/ecruzguevarra"},"rlevi":{"type":"authors","id":"11260","meta":{"index":"authors_1591205172","id":"11260","found":true},"name":"Ryan Levi","firstName":"Ryan","lastName":"Levi","slug":"rlevi","email":"rlevi@KQED.org","display_author_email":false,"staff_mastheads":[],"title":"KQED Contributor","bio":"Ryan Levi was a reporter and podcast producer at KQED News from 2016-2019. He worked on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/the-bay/\">The Bay, \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-california-report-magazine/id1314750545\">The California Report Magazine\u003c/a>, as well as hosting and producing the weekly \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/program/qedup/\">Q'ed Up podcast. \u003c/a>He also helped inaugurate KQED's weekend news coverage in 2017 as one of two original digital producers. 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He's worked as a senior talk show producer for WILL in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, and was the founding producer and editor of \u003cem>Racist Sandwich\u003c/em>, a podcast about food, race, class, and gender. 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Before that, she was a New York Women’s Foundation IGNITE Fellow at Latino USA. She worked at Radio Bilingue where she covered the San Joaquin Valley. Maria has interned at WLRN, News 21, The New York Times Student Journalism Institute and at Crain’s Detroit Business as a Dow Jones News Fund Business Reporting Intern. She is an MFA graduate from the University of Miami. In 2017, she graduated from the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication with a Master of Mass Communication. A fronteriza, she was born in Ciudad Juárez, Chihuahua, Mexico and grew up in El Paso, Texas.","avatar":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/77cedba18aae91da775038ba06dcd8d0?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twitter":"@m_esquinca","facebook":null,"instagram":null,"linkedin":null,"sites":[{"site":"news","roles":["editor"]}],"headData":{"title":"Maria Esquinca | KQED","description":"Producer, The Bay","ogImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/77cedba18aae91da775038ba06dcd8d0?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/77cedba18aae91da775038ba06dcd8d0?s=600&d=blank&r=g"},"isLoading":false,"link":"/author/mesquinca"},"srascon":{"type":"authors","id":"11816","meta":{"index":"authors_1591205172","id":"11816","found":true},"name":"Steven Rascón","firstName":"Steven","lastName":"Rascón","slug":"srascon","email":"srascon@kqed.org","display_author_email":false,"staff_mastheads":[],"title":"KQED Contributor","bio":"Steven Rascón is a journalist and an audio producer from Northeast Los Angeles. He's a producer in the KQED news department and produces stories for KQED Podcasts. His reporting has been featured in Cal Matters, PolitiFact, KCRW, and Cap Radio. He sound designed and helped produce stories for the radio show and podcast \u003cem>Reveal\u003c/em> from the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX. He was part of the team that produced the Peabody nominated 7-part series \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://revealnews.org/mississippi-goddam/\">Mississippi Goddamn: The Ballad of Billey Joe\u003c/a>.\u003c/em> He's a graduate from the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism where he focused on investigative reporting and long-form audio.","avatar":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/37610a357b875db673c4b0d1bdcd9db1?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twitter":"hola_rascon","facebook":null,"instagram":null,"linkedin":null,"sites":[{"site":"arts","roles":["editor"]},{"site":"news","roles":["editor"]}],"headData":{"title":"Steven Rascón | KQED","description":"KQED Contributor","ogImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/37610a357b875db673c4b0d1bdcd9db1?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/37610a357b875db673c4b0d1bdcd9db1?s=600&d=blank&r=g"},"isLoading":false,"link":"/author/srascon"}},"breakingNewsReducer":{},"campaignFinanceReducer":{},"firebase":{"requesting":{},"requested":{},"timestamps":{},"data":{},"ordered":{},"auth":{"isLoaded":false,"isEmpty":true},"authError":null,"profile":{"isLoaded":false,"isEmpty":true},"listeners":{"byId":{},"allIds":[]},"isInitializing":false,"errors":[]},"navBarReducer":{"navBarId":"news","fullView":true,"showPlayer":false},"navMenuReducer":{"menus":[{"key":"menu1","items":[{"name":"News","link":"/","type":"title"},{"name":"Politics","link":"/politics"},{"name":"Science","link":"/science"},{"name":"Education","link":"/educationnews"},{"name":"Housing","link":"/housing"},{"name":"Immigration","link":"/immigration"},{"name":"Criminal Justice","link":"/criminaljustice"},{"name":"Silicon Valley","link":"/siliconvalley"},{"name":"Forum","link":"/forum"},{"name":"The California Report","link":"/californiareport"}]},{"key":"menu2","items":[{"name":"Arts & Culture","link":"/arts","type":"title"},{"name":"Critics’ Picks","link":"/thedolist"},{"name":"Cultural Commentary","link":"/artscommentary"},{"name":"Food & Drink","link":"/food"},{"name":"Bay Area Hip-Hop","link":"/bayareahiphop"},{"name":"Rebel Girls","link":"/rebelgirls"},{"name":"Arts Video","link":"/artsvideos"}]},{"key":"menu3","items":[{"name":"Podcasts","link":"/podcasts","type":"title"},{"name":"Bay Curious","link":"/podcasts/baycurious"},{"name":"Rightnowish","link":"/podcasts/rightnowish"},{"name":"The Bay","link":"/podcasts/thebay"},{"name":"On Our Watch","link":"/podcasts/onourwatch"},{"name":"Mindshift","link":"/podcasts/mindshift"},{"name":"Consider This","link":"/podcasts/considerthis"},{"name":"Political Breakdown","link":"/podcasts/politicalbreakdown"}]},{"key":"menu4","items":[{"name":"Live Radio","link":"/radio","type":"title"},{"name":"TV","link":"/tv","type":"title"},{"name":"Events","link":"/events","type":"title"},{"name":"For Educators","link":"/education","type":"title"},{"name":"Support KQED","link":"/support","type":"title"},{"name":"About","link":"/about","type":"title"},{"name":"Help Center","link":"https://kqed-helpcenter.kqed.org/s","type":"title"}]}]},"pagesReducer":{},"postsReducer":{"stream_live":{"type":"live","id":"stream_live","audioUrl":"https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio","title":"Live Stream","excerpt":"Live Stream information currently unavailable.","link":"/radio","featImg":"","label":{"name":"KQED Live","link":"/"}},"stream_kqedNewscast":{"type":"posts","id":"stream_kqedNewscast","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1","title":"KQED Newscast","featImg":"","label":{"name":"88.5 FM","link":"/"}},"news_11782405":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11782405","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11782405","score":null,"sort":[1714644006000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers","title":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers","publishDate":1714644006,"format":"video","headTitle":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Take a trip with us into the hidden world lying under San Francisco's streets.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1714656525,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":126,"wordCount":4782},"headData":{"title":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers | KQED","description":"Take a trip with us into the hidden world lying under San Francisco's streets.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Tunnels Under San Francisco? Inside the Dark, Dangerous World of the Sewers","datePublished":"2024-05-02T10:00:06.000Z","dateModified":"2024-05-02T13:28:45.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"videoEmbed":"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=726sQLKGAjk","source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC5310262395.mp3?updated=1714610657","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11782405","audioTrackLength":879,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11782405/tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>, we’ve received a \u003cem>lot\u003c/em> of questions about tunnels under San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Listeners have told us they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under the city. They’ve asked us, what is the truth about them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing I should tell you is: They’re absolutely real.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>What Lies Beneath?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>The myth of the underground — a silent world hidden under our feet — is an endlessly alluring one. There are, after all, very \u003cem>real\u003c/em> labyrinths under major world cities. Like the infamous \u003ca href=\"http://catacombes.paris.fr/en\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">catacombs of Paris\u003c/a>, lined with the bones of the city’s dead, or the \u003ca href=\"https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/odessa-catacombs\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">terrifying catacombs under Odesa\u003c/a> in Ukraine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people get so obsessed with the idea of tunnels that they search for underground adventures themselves. They call themselves “urban explorers.” If you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s particular underground, there’s a name that comes up again and again — an explorer named \u003ca href=\"http://www.sierrahartman.com/sf-underground\">Sierra Hartman\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782642\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782642 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/Sierra-1-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A photographer and writer, Hartman’s haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under S.F. are, for many people, their first clue that this particular world of tunnels really does exist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s just ingrained in human nature, you know?” Hartman says of the drive to venture below. “You wonder what’s down there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hartman lives in Tacoma, Washington, but grew up in Southern California. It was roaming around on his bike as a kid with friends, Goonies-style, that he discovered the dark urban waterways in his hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You take a 12-year-old kid and show them an entrance of a tunnel? Like, they’re \u003cem>going\u003c/em> to go in,” Hartman says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782644\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782644 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_v96zDttNjTR0Bhsu_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Arriving in San Francisco later in life, he began exploring the city’s streets at night with his camera. One of those nights, a chance encounter with a manhole left open led him beneath the San Francisco for the first time — and sparked an adult passion for urban exploration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Across the sleeping city, Hartman found entrances to dark, dripping tunnels, sloshing wet, that stretched for miles into the blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So much of it is just overgrown,” he says of those doorways. “You don’t \u003cem>realize\u003c/em> that there is a whole underground part of this thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many urban explorers, Hartman says, he enjoyed the thrill of the hunt almost as much as the actual discovery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Like solving a puzzle,” he says. “It’s as much about solving the mystery and finding the thing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782645\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 700px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782645 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png\" alt=\"\" width=\"700\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_.png 700w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/0_bKc1L_JmfVh4mTQZ_-160x103.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Somewhere under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sierra Hartman)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He used a mixture of publicly available records and maps, Google Earth, and whispers from fellow urban explorers, who are notoriously secretive about their finds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least some of that is due to the risks of their enterprise. Bodily dangers aside, urban exploration represents “at best a gray area of legality in some places, and outright trespassing in other places,” as Hartman puts it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This is the part where I tell you that this underground network Hartman risked bodily harm to venture into is no mysterious labyrinth built by shadowy figures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Complex World You Don’t See\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job,” says Megan Abadie, an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission wastewater enterprise. Her job sees her enter those same tunnels — legally — to make sure that this giant, intricate system filled with your waste keeps working the way it’s meant to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782900 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39803__M6A1972-qut-1200x800.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in her office at San Francisco’s Public Utilities Commission. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of misconceptions about the sewers, Abadie says. For one, what we surface-dwellers call “tunnels” aren’t truly tunnels — a term that specifically means a long run of pipe bored out of the earth with only a few manholes attached. When we talk of the “tunnels under San Francisco,” we’re usually talking, in fact, about sewer mains.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is 49 square miles but has over 1,000 miles of sewer mains under every block. What makes our system unique in California is the fact that it’s a combined system. Instead of stormwater and sewage water being separated into different pipes, as they are elsewhere in the state, in San Francisco, it all flows into the same set of pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782624 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39789_Megan_Tunnel_05-qut.jpg 1885w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie, deep in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This is a legacy of the city’s relative age, with the foundations of our modern-day sewers being laid during the Gold Rush — in what Abadie describes as “a very ad hoc system … people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek.” There are still some pipes under your feet that date from the 1840s, she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just like in New York — another old, dense city — it was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to replace the old system with secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, which is why this city still has those big, wide sewer mains … that people can’t seem to stay out of.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A Lethal Labyrinth\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily,” Abadie reminds me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For one thing, there’s the risk of drowning down there. Because of San Francisco’s steep topography, Abadie and her colleagues never enter the sewers if there’s so much as a drizzle of rain anywhere in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782637\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782637 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39787_Megan_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the sewers of San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“If you’re in a large pipe at the bottom of a hill, it doesn’t take much for a big slug of water to hit you, even if it’s not raining very much where you are,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, there’s the danger of toxic gas, namely hydrogen sulfide, produced when organic material (waste matter, seaweed) starts to decompose. At low levels, it has a distinctive smell of rotten eggs. At higher levels, it affects a person’s sense of smell entirely and can knock you out — and kill you — within minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782625 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39796_Tunnel_02-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the San Francisco sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>On top of \u003cem>that\u003c/em>, there’s the threat of simply getting lost, injured or both in the sewers. Abadie and her fellow inspectors are equipped with accurate maps and supported by a large chain of people both below and above ground — weather spotters, medics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I go into the sewer system, I know exactly where I am. … You go into a pipe that you see sticking out somewhere? Open up a manhole? You’re not going to know where you are,” Abadie says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782638\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782638 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39773_Carly_DischargePipe-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stooping low in the sewers. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After hearing this, I had \u003cem>zero\u003c/em> intention of exploring the sewers alone for this story. But I couldn’t resist asking Megan to take me down to see an underground place that Sierra Hartman had told me about.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>A Trip into the Underworld\u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>It looked more like a cave than a sewer, Hartman says. And I knew urban explorers like him would spend months, even years, trying to track down its precise location — because of how striking it looked and how it led right out to the Pacific Ocean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abadie knew exactly the place Hartman meant and asked me to wait until the timing was just right when it’d be safe enough at low tide, with no chance of rain. That timing turned out to be very early in the morning on the Fourth of July, the lowest tide of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782626\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782626 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39779_Carly-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn being lowered into the sewer system. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As Abadie’s crew secured a harness and waist-high waders to my body, she explained why we’d be taking gas meters and oxygen masks down there. Even though the fast flow of the system we’d be entering would lower the hydrogen sulfide risk, “you can go into a sewer that’s been fine every single time, and one year something can be different,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With safety equipment secured, we were lowered one by one into the tunnel by rope, down a tall, rusting ladder until we finally reached the bottom of the sewer with a splash. The water reached our knees. Ahead, through the humid, misty air, was a long, high tunnel that seemed to stretch for miles in front of us. Down there in the darkness was that “sewer cave” — and the ocean. During the rainy season, Abadie reminded me that the tunnel we stood in would have been full of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782631\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1851px\">\u003ca href=\"manho\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782631 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1851\" height=\"1056\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut.jpg 1851w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-160x91.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-800x456.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1020x582.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39786_Megan_entrance-qut-1200x685.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1851px) 100vw, 1851px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Reporter Carly Severn is lowered down through a manhole. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Surprisingly, the sewers don’t smell how you might fear they would: the odor is agricultural, like a farmyard smell. Yet no matter how pleasant this surprise, wading through high sewer water in such humidity quickly becomes exhausting, like walking through deep snow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we walked through the tunnel, our voices echoing off the walls, Abadie told me about her first entries into the sewers after she started working for the city in 2011. The underground network, she says, reminded her of the vast Mines of Moria in “The Lord of the Rings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing a little turd float by! I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see,” she says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782632\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1885px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782632 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1885\" height=\"1060\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut.jpg 1885w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39772_Carly_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1885px) 100vw, 1885px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exploring deep under San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As we got closer to what \u003cem>I’d\u003c/em> come to see — that cave — the crashing of the Pacific Ocean suddenly grew louder. Looming in front of us, there it was: What looked like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, carved from dark, jutting rock and yawning into more blackness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This,” Abadie says with some pride, “is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782633\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003ca href=\"Sruti%20Mamidanna/KQED\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782633 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39775_Carly_Megan_03-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carly Severn and Megan Abadie in the mouth of the ‘sewer cave.’\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Passing through the cave, we had to stoop to get through the last part of our journey, our helmets scraping the ceiling. We were now inside the discharge pipe: the way the system can safely get water out during heavy storms, while providing primary-level treatment, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the pipe, the waves we could hear crashing close suddenly became visible, as I found myself looking out at the ocean, framed by rock. After hours underground, it was now daylight out there. That entrance onto the water is, unthinkably, how some explorers try to get \u003cem>in\u003c/em> here via a tiny strip of beach that opens up only for a brief period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782636\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1846px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782636 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1846\" height=\"1038\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut.jpg 1846w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39771_4.34-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1846px) 100vw, 1846px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A glimpse of the Pacific Ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the tide started to rise, the waves started to crash further and further into the pipe toward us, and we knew it was time to go. As we moved back through the tunnel, the difference in smell was palpable: The people of San Francisco were waking up and were starting to use their bathrooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After being attached to the rope and hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again, I was suddenly out of the city’s underworld. Exhausted, after hours of trudging through sewer water, the call of the underground was only more apparent to me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So what could people do, I asked Abadie, if after hearing the truth about the darkness and danger down there, they \u003cem>still\u003c/em> couldn’t resist the lure of subterranean exploration?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11782640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1891px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11782640 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1891\" height=\"1064\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut.jpg 1891w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/10/RS39791_Megandischarge-qut-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1891px) 100vw, 1891px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Megan Abadie in the discharge pipe leading out to the ocean. \u003ccite>(Sruti Mamidanna )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We have a lot of people retiring here. You can come work for us!” she says. “We will get you into sewers. It’ll be awesome. Your passion can actually get you \u003cem>paid\u003c/em> to explore sewers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Or become a public radio reporter,” she added. “Those are two ways that you can get into sewers and not die.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published on Oct. 31, 2019 and was updated and republished on May 2, 2024. Special thanks to Evan Thompson with his assistance for this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of birds, dog barking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Around us all the time is the city that we know. The same stretch of sidewalk we walk on every day, the bus stop on the corner, our favorite restaurants, our neighborhood parks. If you live anywhere long enough, you can think you’ve seen it all. But what if beneath the streets there was another world? A place that’s so close to you all the time, but you wouldn’t even recognize it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Bay Curious theme music starts] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hey everyone, Olivia Allen-Price here. Over the years we’ve been running Bay Curious, we’ve received a bunch of questions about tunnels. Listeners who say they’ve heard stories of secret passageways running under San Francisco. \u003c/span>We aired an episode on the topic in 2019, but your questions have kept on coming … So today we’re going to revisit it, and answer the question do these tunnels exist?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: Those stories about hidden underground tunnel systems in the Bay Area. They’re true!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Underground tunnels echo]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: The structure is absolutely amazing. It’s also quite scary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: That voice you just heard was recorded deep under the streets of San Francisco, and it belongs to reporter Carly Severn. We sent her to investigate the secret world under the city,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> A lot of you will have heard the legends about the very real labyrinths under major world cities, like the famous catacombs of Paris, that are lined with the bones of the city’s dead. And if you hit Google looking for information on San Francisco’s underground like I did, there’s a name that comes up again and again an urban explorer called Sierra Hardman. And his incredible, haunting photographs of shadowy spaces under the city are, for many people, their first clue that this world of tunnels really exists. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it’s just ingrained in human nature. You know, you wonder what’s down there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sierra told me he’s been obsessed with exploring the underground since he was a kid, back when he was growing up in Southern California, riding around on his bike, Goonies style, and peering into dark urban waterways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, you take a 12 year old kid and you show them an entrance of a tunnel like they’re gonna to go in. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When he was older, he moved to San Francisco and started roaming the streets with his camera while the rest of the city was sleeping, just looking for secret entry ways underground, guided by maps and city plans and whispers from other urban explorers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So much of it is just overgrown. Yeah, you drove past it so many times you don’t really recognize it as something really special. You don’t realize that there’s a whole, like, underground part of this thing.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He found doorways and manholes that led him down into dark, dripping tunnels stretching into blackness beyond the reach of his flashlight. But this network of underground spaces, this is no secret labyrinth built by shadowy figures. It’s San Francisco’s huge sewer network, and there’s one person in this city that knows the sewers inside out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: So my name’s Megan Abadie. I’m an assistant engineer for the San Francisco Public Utilities Commission Wastewater Enterprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Megan’s job is making sure that system – yep – pipes filled with your waste works.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I crawl through a lot of sewer pipes. That’s basically my job. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wastewater management, what we call sewers, can sound kind of gross, but how this stuff all works is pretty impressive. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco is about a seven by seven, you know, 49-50 mile square city. And we actually have over 1000 miles of sewer main. There’s sewers under every block. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing about the city’s sewers is many of these pipes are big. Big enough for curious risk takers to walk through rather than crawl, which isn’t possible in many other cities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a very different type of sewer system than pretty much any other city in California. It has what’s called a combined system. That means that the stormwater and the sewage water leak from your toilet and your sinks, it all goes into the same set of pipes.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have an old city, and that one pipe system was how folks did it back then. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s sewer network, began to be built during the Gold Rush era. So there are some pipes that date from the 1840s. It was a very ad hoc system at that time that people would build pipes to just connect to the nearest creek. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Just like in New York, another old dense city. It was too hard to rip up San Francisco’s sewer network to add secondary pipes. So we’ve repaired and adapted our old system, creating a maze of those big wide sewer mains. But listen, if you’re hearing this and are feeling the lure of exploring the world on the San Francisco yourself, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">don’t\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Seriously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a lot of things that can happen in the sewer that can actually kill you pretty easily. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was no way I was going to follow in the footsteps of an urban explorer like Sierra Hartmann and go roaming under San Francisco alone. But there was this one particular place that Sierra told me about that I knew I really wanted to see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Dramatic music] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A passageway somewhere beneath San Francisco that’s famous for its otherworldly look. Sierra had to pour over old sewer maps to find it. I was told it looks more like a cave than a sewer. And it leads right out onto the Pacific Ocean. Megan knew exactly the place I meant. And when conditions were just right, she said she’d take me down there herself. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’ll be over 200 feet below the ground, actually. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Crew conversation in the background]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so that’s how I end up with Megan and her crew, at 2 AM on the 4th of July in a harness, in a waist-high waders, getting recording equipment taped to my body, about to be lowered down into an open manhole. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…Does it feel..? Oh, look like it’s a good height, you don’t need to adjust the height.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our underground journey will lead us through a very watery tunnel, through that sewer cave, and into what they call a discharge pipe. Now, that pipe is the way the system can safely get water out during really heavy storms, when the usual storage areas under the city are full to the brim. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, so when we get out into the discharge pipe, you’re going to hear the ocean, just boring through this final stretch of tunnel. And you can actually, like, feel it. You can’t just hear it – you can feel it in your gut. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can’t wait!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As one of her crew is strapping a bright yellow gas meter onto my suit, Megan tells me more about the very real dangers of being in the sewers. The big one is a lethal gas called hydrogen sulfide that can kill you before you know it’s there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You can smell it at low levels, it smells like rotten eggs. At higher levels that actually kills the nerves, it kills your smell nerves, it kills your old factory nerves. So at higher levels, at levels high enough to be dangerous, you won’t smell it at all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And because of the gas risk, I’m getting an air pack too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s exactly like the, oxygen masks that you have on an airplane. You just put it over your face and breathe through it, and it’ll give you oxygen. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, well, fingers crossed we don’t end up using these. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You won’t, you won’t. But it’s good to know how to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After all this, I’m finally lowered down many feet into the tunnel by rope down a tall, rusting ladder until we splash into knee deep water and into the sewer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Sounds of water splashes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I’m staring down into a long, gaping tunnel that seems to stretch out for miles. Oh my goodness. This is exactly like I thought it would be, from watching horror movies. The air is really damp, exactly like they said it would be. You can kind of see this fine mist in the air, and I can hear my voice echoing in a really crazy way. There’s water flow under my feet… And it’s like walking through stream with a really dirty stream. Speaker 2: [00:08:45] We start to make our way toward the sewer cave that few people have seen. Megan tells me that had it been raining above ground, this tunnel would have been a lethal river of freezing water right up to the roof. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, this would totally be fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Oh, yeah. You wouldn’t – we don’t go into the system when there’s even a drizzle.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you ever wondered what it sounds like to wade through raw sewage, it’s pretty much like this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly wading through water]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Weirdly, it does not smell that bad in here. Well, at least not as bad as I thought. Kind of smells like if you spent time on a farm. Kind of smells like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I started working in for the city in 2011 and doing sewer entry.. So that was after the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lord of the Rings\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> movies came out, and it reminded me of the mines of Moria with all the pillars, except it was full of water. Yeah. I thought it was really cool. I even thought it was cool seeing little turds float by. I mean, that’s not something everyone gets to see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As we get closer to what I’d come to see. That cave, the crashing of the ocean out on the outside world suddenly gets louder. And then looming in front of us, right there in the tunnel. There it is. What looks like the tall, wide mouth of a cave, deep under San Francisco, dark, jutting rock yawning into more blackness. The entrance to the pipe that leads out to the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s amazing. It looks like it looks like a Middle Earth. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful? This is, this is definitely the most scenic and beautiful combined sewer overflow in San Francisco. It’s the only one that’s carved into raw stone like this. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We walk into the cave through a stretch of that discharge pipe, and there’s the final surprise. We can see the Pacific Ocean just feet away, framed by the rock. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Water flowing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After hours underground, we’re now staring at broad daylight. This entrance, unthinkably, is how some explorers try to get in here from the outside via a tiny strip of beach that only opens up for a brief period of time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Megan Abadie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s a bad idea to go into the sewer anywhere, but it’s a really bad idea to go into the sewer via an access point that is only going to be passable for like, an hour or two.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Crouching there in that pipe, I see how quickly the waves are starting to rush towards us, a sign that it was time to hurry out of there and back above ground.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, it is definitely smelling a little different on our return journey, and I think that’s because people have woken up by now and let’s just say they are using their bathrooms. And after being reattached the rope and having my tired body hauled out of the darkness and up through the manhole again like that, I am out of the underworld. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Carly laughing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And out into daylight on the 4th of July. Cool. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there you have it. San Francisco’s secret underground is pretty incredible, even if our legendary tunnels are actually some not so secret sewers after all. Except… maybe there’s something Sierra told me that I couldn’t get out of my mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Mystical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sierra Hartman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of these sewers are maps. Because in the 1906 earthquake and the entire city, or the entire eastern half of the city anyway, just burned to the ground. They lost tons of records of infrastructure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carly Severn: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know what? According to the city, he’s right. So there is still a touch of mystery under San Francisco, after all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Music fades]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That was KQED’s Carly Seven. This is a story that you really need to see, not just listen to. Video producer Sruti Mamidanna made a video from Carly’s trip and it is very cool. You can find it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> – we’ll drop a link in the show notes too. It’s a new month, which means a new voting round is up at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>.\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Let’s hear the choices. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1 : \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How clean is the Bay Area water? Is it safe to swim? Are some areas better than others? What would it take to get it fully clean or safe? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whatever happened to the Bay area’s camels? I went to high school in Benicia and heard things about the camel barns. There are no longer camels in the barns. Where did they go, and why were they there to begin with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the Devil’s Slide? And how did I get that name? Had to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">baycurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to cast your vote, for which question we should answer next.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Bill, Tamuna Chkareuli, and me, Olivia Allen-Price with support from Kimberly Low, Molly Wu, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and KQED family. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll see you next week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11782405/tunnels-under-san-francisco-inside-the-dark-dangerous-world-of-the-sewers","authors":["3243"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_26456","news_24374","news_19542","news_38"],"featImg":"news_11783907","label":"source_news_11782405"},"news_11976435":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11976435","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11976435","score":null,"sort":[1708479001000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"homelessness-mental-illness-and-drug-addiction-prop-1-takes-aim-at-all-3","title":"Homelessness, Mental Illness and Drug Addiction: Prop. 1 Takes Aim at All 3","publishDate":1708479001,"format":"audio","headTitle":"Homelessness, Mental Illness and Drug Addiction: Prop. 1 Takes Aim at All 3 | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>Scott and Marisa\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Protests over the Israel-Hamas War continue dividing Democrats, with disagreement over what the Biden Administration should do. Scott and Marisa talk about what this means as President Biden visits California this week to fundraise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, Guy Marzorati joins Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious, to break down everything you need to know about Proposition 1. It’s the only statewide ballot measure in the March primary, and it’s meant to address homelessness, drug addiction and mental illness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11975170/bay-curious-breaks-down-prop-1\">Bay Curious Breaks Down Prop. 1\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11974991/transcript-proposition-1-behavioral-health-funding\">Transcript: Proposition 1 — Behavioral Health Funding\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":null,"status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1708474428,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":7,"wordCount":101},"headData":{"title":"Homelessness, Mental Illness and Drug Addiction: Prop. 1 Takes Aim at All 3 | KQED","description":"Scott and Marisa Protests over the Israel-Hamas War continue dividing Democrats, with disagreement over what the Biden Administration should do. Scott and Marisa talk about what this means as President Biden visits California this week to fundraise. Then, Guy Marzorati joins Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious, to break down everything you need to know","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Homelessness, Mental Illness and Drug Addiction: Prop. 1 Takes Aim at All 3","datePublished":"2024-02-21T01:30:01.000Z","dateModified":"2024-02-21T00:13:48.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Political Breakdown","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC1611583717.mp3?updated=1708474036","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11976435/homelessness-mental-illness-and-drug-addiction-prop-1-takes-aim-at-all-3","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Scott and Marisa\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Protests over the Israel-Hamas War continue dividing Democrats, with disagreement over what the Biden Administration should do. Scott and Marisa talk about what this means as President Biden visits California this week to fundraise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, Guy Marzorati joins Olivia Allen-Price, host of Bay Curious, to break down everything you need to know about Proposition 1. It’s the only statewide ballot measure in the March primary, and it’s meant to address homelessness, drug addiction and mental illness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11975170/bay-curious-breaks-down-prop-1\">Bay Curious Breaks Down Prop. 1\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11974991/transcript-proposition-1-behavioral-health-funding\">Transcript: Proposition 1 — Behavioral Health Funding\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11976435/homelessness-mental-illness-and-drug-addiction-prop-1-takes-aim-at-all-3","authors":["255","3239"],"categories":["news_8"],"tags":["news_18426","news_32839","news_2109","news_22235","news_17968","news_17101"],"featImg":"news_11975014","label":"source_news_11976435"},"news_11737575":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11737575","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11737575","score":null,"sort":[1706785248000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"why-is-piedmont-a-separate-city-from-oakland-2","title":"Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland?","publishDate":1706785248,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said. [ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Piedmont is surrounded on all sides by Oakland. A look back at the history of how the city was founded.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1706730953,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":109,"wordCount":4246},"headData":{"title":"Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? | KQED","description":"Piedmont is surrounded on all sides by Oakland. A look back at the history of how the city was founded.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland?","datePublished":"2024-02-01T11:00:48.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-31T19:55:53.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC8608979413.mp3?updated=1706724546","sticky":false,"nprByline":"Chris Hambrick","audioTrackLength":687,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11737575/why-is-piedmont-a-separate-city-from-oakland-2","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said. \u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11737575/why-is-piedmont-a-separate-city-from-oakland-2","authors":["byline_news_11737575"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_24374","news_1573"],"featImg":"news_11737639","label":"source_news_11737575"},"news_11702058":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11702058","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11702058","score":null,"sort":[1704366012000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"why-is-part-of-alameda-island-in-san-francisco","title":"Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco?","publishDate":1704366012,"format":"image","headTitle":"Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published November 1, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer has noticed something odd whenever she pulls up a map of San Francisco online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My little shortcut to get to Google Maps is I just type in ‘SF Map,’ and then Google pops up,” Bodenhamer says. “And it outlines S.F. in red, and I noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s not just Google Maps being wonky. Maps from the San Francisco Planning Department confirm that a piece of Alameda Island is inside San Francisco’s borders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how this is possible, we have to go back hundreds of years to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702286\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702286\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg\" alt=\"A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity.\" width=\"800\" height=\"607\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1020x774.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1200x911.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1180x896.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-960x729.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-240x182.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-375x285.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-520x395.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut.jpg 1670w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Planning Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Peraltas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 when the Spanish government gave Luís Maria Peralta a land grant of more than 40,000 acres in recognition of his 40 years of military service. Known as the \u003ca href=\"http://www.peraltahacienda.org/pages/main.php?pageid=69&pagecategory=3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rancho San Antonio\u003c/a>, it covered present-day San Leandro, Oakland, Alameda, Emeryville, Piedmont, Berkeley and Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basically, the Spanish government gave him the entire East Bay (even though Native Americans, including the Ohlone and Bay Miwok, had already been living there for centuries).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peralta never actually lived on the Rancho, but he split the land among his four sons, who settled the land, built homes, raised cattle and fostered the growth of a thriving, Spanish-speaking community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1848, California was ceded to the United States by Mexico, and in 1850, it became a state. For existing landowners like the Peraltas, this created several headaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. squatters settled in California without respect to who had owned the land under Spanish and Mexican rule. Squatters were such a problem that Antonio Peralta, one of Luís’ sons, was shocked in 1851 to find two men actually interested in buying some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh bought 160 acres from Antonio in 1851 for $14,000, and they would use the land to \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/news-and-resources/history/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">found the city of Alameda\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Antonio still had problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. government made Spanish and Mexican landowners go to court to prove their claims, and it wasn’t until 1874 that Antonio finally received a patent from the government affirming his claim to his land, including the piece he had sold to Chipman and Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Navy pushes Alameda into San Francisco\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story picks up in 1956 when the U.S. Navy makes an eminent domain claim of about 50 acres of submerged land underneath San Francisco Bay off the coast of Alameda. (The Navy would end up revising their request down to just shy of 40 acres.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy was looking to expand the Alameda Naval Air Station, which had opened just before the start of World War II and served as the launching site for the first major bombing raid of Japan after Pearl Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11702298 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg\" alt=\"U.S. Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958.\" width=\"800\" height=\"529\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-960x635.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-520x344.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut.jpg 1489w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">US Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bonhomme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958. \u003ccite>(U.S. Navy [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy had regularly filled in parts of the bay to expand the air station, but when they did it this time, they crossed over the invisible line underneath the bay that separates Alameda from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the Navy, there was now a tiny piece of San Francisco attached to Alameda Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702301\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702301\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg\" alt=\"A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche's other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island.\" width=\"800\" height=\"2485\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-160x497.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-386x1200.jpg 386w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-240x746.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-375x1165.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-520x1615.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut.jpg 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche’s other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island. \u003ccite>(Newspapers.com)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But no one at the time seemed to care much about this border breach. What they did care about was who the federal government would have to pay for taking this piece of land. The state of California said it was the proper beneficiary, but two East Bay women saw it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carol Heche and Elinor Petersen claimed that the submerged land actually belonged to them, and therefore they deserved payment as the descendants of the founders of Alameda — William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh. Petersen said she purchased the estate of Aughinbaugh’s daughter, Ella, and Heche was Chipman’s granddaughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very proud of their heritage, and she was the historian of the family,” says George Gunn, curator of the Alameda Museum, about Heche. “She claimed that their property extended out into the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was the women’s central argument. According to court records, the women traced their claim through their Alameda ancestors and back to the original Peralta land grant from the king of Spain in 1820, which was, according to them, “bounded on the southwest by the sea.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In Spanish laws, the lands bounded by the sea, are lands that extended to the deep navigable waters of the sea,” Petersen wrote in a court filing in January 1962.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This begs the question of what exactly the “deep navigable waters” included and how far out these women claimed ownership underneath San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know how far out I own,” Petersen said in court in August 1962, according to a transcript. “It doesn’t really make any difference, because the Federal Government is protecting it for me, and I have a fine Government and I’m not worried.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she and Heche were certain that they owned the part of the bay the Navy had taken, and they believed fervently that their claim had been confirmed by the 1874 patent, as shown by this exchange between Petersen and Judge Alfonso Zirpoli at a pretrial hearing in December 1962:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>ZIRPOLI: The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: Absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: I think it is as simple as that.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>But it actually didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Spanish land grant may have implied ownership out into the bay’s “deep navigable waters,” the 1874 patent explicitly described the southwest border as, “… along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zirpoli ruled against the women and denied their request for a new trial. Petersen and Heche appealed the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which also ruled against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A boundary line at ‘ordinary high water’ or ‘ordinary high tide’ cannot, by any process of interpretation, be located somewhere on or under the surface of the water a mile or more from the line of high tide or high water,” the appeals court wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/263062/elinor-e-petersen-carol-e-heche-and-51424-acres-of-land-more-or-less/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">in its February 1964 decision\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A year later, the federal government cut the state of California a check for $13,619.55 for the submerged land it had claimed nearly a decade earlier. And Heche and Petersen walked away empty-handed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Who you gonna call: San Francisco or Alameda?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702307\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702307\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"A view across the water of San Francisco ... from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It's trippy, right?\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view across the water of San Francisco … from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It’s trippy, right? \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Alameda Naval Air Station closed in 1997, the Navy began transferring the land to different entities. In 2014, the Department of Veterans Affairs agreed to take over 624 acres, including the border-crossing sliver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From the VA’s perspective, it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County. It’s federal property,” says Larry Janes, who’s overseeing the development of a new VA hospital and national cemetery on the former naval base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither San Francisco nor Alameda zone the geographic oddity — which spans about 30 acres — and the VA has promised never to develop that part of the land because it’s home to an endangered bird species, the California least tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s currently no regular public access to that part of the former base, but our Bay Curious question asker, Lori, couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if a crime was committed out there. Whose jurisdiction would it fall under?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702306\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702306\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans' Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Olivia Allen-Price/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District police,” Janes says. “And we have our own VA police as well, and we work with the Alameda police, so if we needed backup from Alameda, we could go to them as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janes says the VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver, so sometime in the future, anyone could walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the king of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We start today’s episode on a beautiful, clear and sunny day back in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Could you tell us where have we brought you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> We’re on the western side of Alameda Island and we’re very close to … I see the Port of Oakland. We’re in the Hanger One Vodka Area. I think it’s called Spirits Vodka now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> I’m standing in front of a giant sign that says “Warning Restricted Area: Authorized Personnel Only” with this week’s question asker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My name is Lori Bodenhamer. I’ve lived in San Francisco for about 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’ve come to Alameda to check out a peculiar piece of land that Lori noticed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My little shortcut to get to the Google Maps — I just type in “SF Map,” and then Google pops up and it outlines San Francisco in red and noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> The border of San Francisco should be simple. You’ve got water on three sides and a straight line along the southern edge. But … not so!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> I wondered why there’s a little sliver of San Francisco on the western edge of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay Curious, the show where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today we travel from 19th century Spanish California to a World War II-era Navy station in Alameda. All to figure out why the heck San Francisco has jumped the bay. This episode first aired in 2018 and we’re reairing it today because it tells one of the wackier histories of land ownership we’ve found. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We asked Bay Curious reporter Ryan Levi to tackle this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It looks like a little right triangle, just a 30-some acre sliver at the very western tip of Alameda Island. It’s all the way across the bay from San Francisco, but somehow, it’s still a part of S-F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And honestly, I thought figuring out how that was possible would be pretty easy. Just call someone up at the city and get the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I start calling people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I try the City Administrator’s office \u003cem>[sound of voicemail]\u003c/em>. They don’t know and say I should email the Department of Real Estate \u003cem>[typing]\u003c/em>. They’ve also got nothing. So I reach out to the Department of Public Works where finally we have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I get a tip about a court case from 1964 that’s somehow connected to our sliver, but records from that far back aren’t going to be digitized so my only option is to go find it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Are you where I check in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Front desk worker:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The National Archives Building in San Bruno is kind of hidden away behind the Tanforan mall and a housing development. I expected it to be kind of dungeon-y, but it’s got lots of windows and natural light and wooden tables set up for researchers. Feels like a library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> This is case 35276.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> They set me up at one of the tables with this gray file box filled with three folders bursting with documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> Looks like it’s oversized maps and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I start going through them all, I realize that this case goes back a lot further than I thought. All the way back to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 with a guy named Luís Maria Peralta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> He served as a soldier for the Spanish government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Dennis Evanosky is the publisher of the Alameda Sun newspaper and until recently was the president of the Alameda Museum. He says Peralta caught the attention of the Spanish government when he secured the release of a group of priests who had been kidnapped from Mission San Jose and taken to the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> As a thank you gift, he got a land grant that stretched all the way from El Cerrito down to San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Basically they give him the entire East Bay, even though Native Americans like the Ohlone and Bay Miwok had already been living there for centuries. But Spain gives Peralta the land, which he then splits among his sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fast forward 31 years. California is now part of the United States and one of Peralta’s sons, Antonio, is looking to unload some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Antonio was delighted to find out that there were actually Americans that were willing to pay him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> This was because squatting was a big problem in the state’s early days … so Peralta was thrilled when two men…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> William Worthington Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Made an offer on 160 acres of Peralta’s land where they established the town of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Peralta had a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His land was in the U.S. now and it would take the government more than 20 years to recognize his claim with a patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, by then yes the land would have belonged to him had he not sold a lot of it. And also by then Aughinbaugh and Chipman were both gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> So Peralta, Chipman and Aughinbaugh had all left Alameda by the time the government finally got around to affirming Peralta’s claim in 1874 and issuing him that patent for the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> Now Know ye, that the United States of America in consideration of the premises \u003cem>[voice fades out]\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the language in that patent, it’s really important for our purposes, and here’s the part you have to remember: [Music starts] the patent includes the piece Peralta sold to Aughinbaugh and Chipman and it says that its western border is…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> “Along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> “Line of ordinary high tide.” Remember that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> On December 7, 1941 Japan like its infamous Axis partners struck first and declared war afterward…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> World War II comes to Alameda. Within months of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, the brand new Alameda Naval Air Station becomes the launching site of the first major bombing raid on Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> The United States aircraft carrier Hornet … part of a taskforce steaming into Japanese waters is now revealed as the secret base from which American plans first bomb Tokyo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> After the war, the station continues to grow by filling in San Francisco bay with new land. So it was totally normal when the Navy claimed about 50 acres of the bay in 1956 to expand the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what happens next is not normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Navy adds this landfill on, it crosses over the invisible line underneath the bay that marks the border between San Francisco and Alameda. Once filled in, this tiny sliver of Alameda Island is now technically in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no one really cares that this underwater border has been breached. What people do care about is who gets paid for this land the Navy is taking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s when two new players enter the arena: Elinor Petersen and Carol Heche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Mrs. Heche … she was a leading member of a museum when it was founded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> George Gunn is the curator of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Everybody knew that she was the granddaughter of Chipman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s William Chipman, one of the men who bought the land from Antonio Peralta to establish Alameda back in the 1850s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> That was their one claim to fame.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It was also how Heche and Petersen claimed ownership and demanded payment from the U.S. government for the part of the bay taken by the Navy to expand the air station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> She was very proud of their heritage and she was the historian of a family. She claimed that their property extended out into into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> She made this claim based on the original Peralta land grant — the one given by Spain in 1820 — which she and Petersen said extended into the quote “deep waters of San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s the rub. That original Spanish land grant may have talked about “deep waters,” but remember that 1874 patent? It set the borders “along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.” High tide is not the same as deep waters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when the women took their case to court, transcripts show the judge was only interested in the patent, the U.S. definition of the borders. Here’s one exchange between the judge and Petersen, who represented the women in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Actors’ voices]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> Absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> I think it is as simple as that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the judge disagrees and rules against Heche and Petersen. They appeal the case, but to no avail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, the Feds do end up paying for the land. Just shy of 14-thousand dollars to California. And the women? They get nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of walking on gravel]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> It’s so peaceful here. And what a perfect day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’re back on present-day Alameda Island with our question asker Lori looking across the bay at the San Francisco skyline. And yet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> So you’re in San Francisco now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s Larry Janes. He’s with the Department of Veterans Affairs which now owns the sliver, and he’s taking us on a tour of this restricted area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> This pond that we’re looking at here, in the summertime you’ll have several hundred Caspian terns that come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> After the Navy closed the air station in the late ’90s, it gave more than 600 acres of it to the VA to build a new hospital and national cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> From the VA’s perspective it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County it’s federal property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> What logistics does that mean? Like for example if a crime was committed where’s the jurisdiction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District Police. And we have our own VA police as well and we work with the Alameda police so if we needed backup from Alameda we could go to them as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> But San Francisco is out of the picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> I mean they can come over if they want but it’s a little bit of a distance for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Neither Alameda nor San Francisco zone the sliver and the VA has promised not to develop it because it’s home to an endangered bird species … called the California Least Tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> In order to ensure their well-being, we had to leave them a buffer zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver. So maybe one day soon, you too can walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the King of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious reporter, Ryan Levi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Lori Bodenhamer for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are sending our January newsletter out next Wednesday – that’s January 10. In it, we’ll answer a question from listener Mandy Y.: “Who put up the large letters ‘South San Francisco The Industrial City’ on a hillside over the town? Why is it there?” If you’re curious, be sure you’re subscribed to get the answer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> And we’re actually in San Francisco as we are making it today but we’re on Alameda Island. It’s weird. I’m not going to get over it. It’s just weird. It’s cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Jessica Placzek and ENGINEER for their work on this episode. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re back next week with a new episode. I’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Maps show a small sliver of Alameda Island is part of San Francisco. Why? The answer stretches back to 1820, when California was still a part of Spain.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1704400631,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":141,"wordCount":3867},"headData":{"title":"Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco? | KQED","description":"Maps show a small sliver of Alameda Island is part of San Francisco. Why? The answer stretches back to 1820, when California was still a part of Spain.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Why Is Part of Alameda Island in San Francisco?","datePublished":"2024-01-04T11:00:12.000Z","dateModified":"2024-01-04T20:37:11.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC6115825065.mp3?updated=1704315833","sticky":false,"audioTrackLength":703,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11702058/why-is-part-of-alameda-island-in-san-francisco","parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>View the full episode transcript\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story first published November 1, 2018.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer has noticed something odd whenever she pulls up a map of San Francisco online.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“My little shortcut to get to Google Maps is I just type in ‘SF Map,’ and then Google pops up,” Bodenhamer says. “And it outlines S.F. in red, and I noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s not just Google Maps being wonky. Maps from the San Francisco Planning Department confirm that a piece of Alameda Island is inside San Francisco’s borders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To understand how this is possible, we have to go back hundreds of years to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702286\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702286\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg\" alt=\"A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity.\" width=\"800\" height=\"607\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-800x607.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-160x121.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1020x774.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1200x911.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-1180x896.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-960x729.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-240x182.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-375x285.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut-520x395.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33470_Screen-Shot-2018-10-29-at-10.08.51-PM-qut.jpg 1670w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map from the San Francisco Planning Department shows the same geographic oddity. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Planning Department)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Peraltas\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 when the Spanish government gave Luís Maria Peralta a land grant of more than 40,000 acres in recognition of his 40 years of military service. Known as the \u003ca href=\"http://www.peraltahacienda.org/pages/main.php?pageid=69&pagecategory=3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Rancho San Antonio\u003c/a>, it covered present-day San Leandro, Oakland, Alameda, Emeryville, Piedmont, Berkeley and Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basically, the Spanish government gave him the entire East Bay (even though Native Americans, including the Ohlone and Bay Miwok, had already been living there for centuries).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Peralta never actually lived on the Rancho, but he split the land among his four sons, who settled the land, built homes, raised cattle and fostered the growth of a thriving, Spanish-speaking community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1848, California was ceded to the United States by Mexico, and in 1850, it became a state. For existing landowners like the Peraltas, this created several headaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>U.S. squatters settled in California without respect to who had owned the land under Spanish and Mexican rule. Squatters were such a problem that Antonio Peralta, one of Luís’ sons, was shocked in 1851 to find two men actually interested in buying some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh bought 160 acres from Antonio in 1851 for $14,000, and they would use the land to \u003ca href=\"https://alamedamuseum.org/news-and-resources/history/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">found the city of Alameda\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Antonio still had problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The U.S. government made Spanish and Mexican landowners go to court to prove their claims, and it wasn’t until 1874 that Antonio finally received a patent from the government affirming his claim to his land, including the piece he had sold to Chipman and Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Navy pushes Alameda into San Francisco\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story picks up in 1956 when the U.S. Navy makes an eminent domain claim of about 50 acres of submerged land underneath San Francisco Bay off the coast of Alameda. (The Navy would end up revising their request down to just shy of 40 acres.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Navy was looking to expand the Alameda Naval Air Station, which had opened just before the start of World War II and served as the launching site for the first major bombing raid of Japan after Pearl Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702298\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11702298 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg\" alt=\"U.S. Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bon Homme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958.\" width=\"800\" height=\"529\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-800x529.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1020x675.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1200x794.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-1180x781.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-960x635.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-240x159.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-375x248.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut-520x344.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33473_USS_Hancock_CVA-19_Bon_Homme_Richard_CVA-31_and_Midway_CVA-41_at_NAS_Alameda_1958-qut.jpg 1489w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">US Navy aircraft carriers USS Hancock (CVA-19), USS Midway (CVA-41), and USS Bonhomme Richard (CVA-31) berthed at Naval Air Station Alameda in 1958. \u003ccite>(U.S. Navy [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Navy had regularly filled in parts of the bay to expand the air station, but when they did it this time, they crossed over the invisible line underneath the bay that separates Alameda from San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the Navy, there was now a tiny piece of San Francisco attached to Alameda Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702301\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702301\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg\" alt=\"A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche's other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island.\" width=\"800\" height=\"2485\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-800x2485.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-160x497.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-386x1200.jpg 386w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-240x746.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-375x1165.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut-520x1615.jpg 520w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33472_Carol-Heche-March-2-1961-part-1f-qut.jpg 900w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A newspaper clipping detailing one of Carol Heche’s other legal battles borne out of her claim to submerged land off of Alameda Island. \u003ccite>(Newspapers.com)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But no one at the time seemed to care much about this border breach. What they did care about was who the federal government would have to pay for taking this piece of land. The state of California said it was the proper beneficiary, but two East Bay women saw it differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Carol Heche and Elinor Petersen claimed that the submerged land actually belonged to them, and therefore they deserved payment as the descendants of the founders of Alameda — William Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh. Petersen said she purchased the estate of Aughinbaugh’s daughter, Ella, and Heche was Chipman’s granddaughter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was very proud of their heritage, and she was the historian of the family,” says George Gunn, curator of the Alameda Museum, about Heche. “She claimed that their property extended out into the bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This was the women’s central argument. According to court records, the women traced their claim through their Alameda ancestors and back to the original Peralta land grant from the king of Spain in 1820, which was, according to them, “bounded on the southwest by the sea.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In Spanish laws, the lands bounded by the sea, are lands that extended to the deep navigable waters of the sea,” Petersen wrote in a court filing in January 1962.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This begs the question of what exactly the “deep navigable waters” included and how far out these women claimed ownership underneath San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know how far out I own,” Petersen said in court in August 1962, according to a transcript. “It doesn’t really make any difference, because the Federal Government is protecting it for me, and I have a fine Government and I’m not worried.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she and Heche were certain that they owned the part of the bay the Navy had taken, and they believed fervently that their claim had been confirmed by the 1874 patent, as shown by this exchange between Petersen and Judge Alfonso Zirpoli at a pretrial hearing in December 1962:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>ZIRPOLI: The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: Absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It absolutely does.\u003cbr>\nZIRPOLI: I think it is as simple as that.\u003cbr>\nPETERSEN: It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>But it actually didn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While the Spanish land grant may have implied ownership out into the bay’s “deep navigable waters,” the 1874 patent explicitly described the southwest border as, “… along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Zirpoli ruled against the women and denied their request for a new trial. Petersen and Heche appealed the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which also ruled against them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A boundary line at ‘ordinary high water’ or ‘ordinary high tide’ cannot, by any process of interpretation, be located somewhere on or under the surface of the water a mile or more from the line of high tide or high water,” the appeals court wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/263062/elinor-e-petersen-carol-e-heche-and-51424-acres-of-land-more-or-less/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">in its February 1964 decision\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A year later, the federal government cut the state of California a check for $13,619.55 for the submerged land it had claimed nearly a decade earlier. And Heche and Petersen walked away empty-handed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Who you gonna call: San Francisco or Alameda?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702307\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702307\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"A view across the water of San Francisco ... from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It's trippy, right?\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33478_Image-from-iOS-4-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A view across the water of San Francisco … from San Francisco on Alameda Island. It’s trippy, right? \u003ccite>(Ryan Levi/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the Alameda Naval Air Station closed in 1997, the Navy began transferring the land to different entities. In 2014, the Department of Veterans Affairs agreed to take over 624 acres, including the border-crossing sliver.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From the VA’s perspective, it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County. It’s federal property,” says Larry Janes, who’s overseeing the development of a new VA hospital and national cemetery on the former naval base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither San Francisco nor Alameda zone the geographic oddity — which spans about 30 acres — and the VA has promised never to develop that part of the land because it’s home to an endangered bird species, the California least tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s currently no regular public access to that part of the former base, but our Bay Curious question asker, Lori, couldn’t help but wonder what would happen if a crime was committed out there. Whose jurisdiction would it fall under?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11702306\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11702306\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans' Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco.\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1200x900.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/RS33476_Image-from-iOS-2-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bay Curious listener Lori Bodenhamer talks with Larry Janes of the Department of Veterans Affairs about the piece of Alameda Island, now owned by the VA, that crosses over into San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Olivia Allen-Price/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District police,” Janes says. “And we have our own VA police as well, and we work with the Alameda police, so if we needed backup from Alameda, we could go to them as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Janes says the VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver, so sometime in the future, anyone could walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the king of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We start today’s episode on a beautiful, clear and sunny day back in 2018.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Could you tell us where have we brought you today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> We’re on the western side of Alameda Island and we’re very close to … I see the Port of Oakland. We’re in the Hanger One Vodka Area. I think it’s called Spirits Vodka now?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> I’m standing in front of a giant sign that says “Warning Restricted Area: Authorized Personnel Only” with this week’s question asker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My name is Lori Bodenhamer. I’ve lived in San Francisco for about 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’ve come to Alameda to check out a peculiar piece of land that Lori noticed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> My little shortcut to get to the Google Maps — I just type in “SF Map,” and then Google pops up and it outlines San Francisco in red and noticed there were some bits of red in Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> The border of San Francisco should be simple. You’ve got water on three sides and a straight line along the southern edge. But … not so!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> I wondered why there’s a little sliver of San Francisco on the western edge of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> This is Bay Curious, the show where we answer your questions about the Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Today we travel from 19th century Spanish California to a World War II-era Navy station in Alameda. All to figure out why the heck San Francisco has jumped the bay. This episode first aired in 2018 and we’re reairing it today because it tells one of the wackier histories of land ownership we’ve found. Stick around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We asked Bay Curious reporter Ryan Levi to tackle this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It looks like a little right triangle, just a 30-some acre sliver at the very western tip of Alameda Island. It’s all the way across the bay from San Francisco, but somehow, it’s still a part of S-F.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And honestly, I thought figuring out how that was possible would be pretty easy. Just call someone up at the city and get the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So I start calling people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I try the City Administrator’s office \u003cem>[sound of voicemail]\u003c/em>. They don’t know and say I should email the Department of Real Estate \u003cem>[typing]\u003c/em>. They’ve also got nothing. So I reach out to the Department of Public Works where finally we have a breakthrough.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I get a tip about a court case from 1964 that’s somehow connected to our sliver, but records from that far back aren’t going to be digitized so my only option is to go find it for myself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Are you where I check in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Front desk worker:\u003c/strong> Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The National Archives Building in San Bruno is kind of hidden away behind the Tanforan mall and a housing development. I expected it to be kind of dungeon-y, but it’s got lots of windows and natural light and wooden tables set up for researchers. Feels like a library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> This is case 35276.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> They set me up at one of the tables with this gray file box filled with three folders bursting with documents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>National Archives worker:\u003c/strong> Looks like it’s oversized maps and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when I start going through them all, I realize that this case goes back a lot further than I thought. All the way back to when California was part of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It starts in 1820 with a guy named Luís Maria Peralta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> He served as a soldier for the Spanish government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Dennis Evanosky is the publisher of the Alameda Sun newspaper and until recently was the president of the Alameda Museum. He says Peralta caught the attention of the Spanish government when he secured the release of a group of priests who had been kidnapped from Mission San Jose and taken to the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> As a thank you gift, he got a land grant that stretched all the way from El Cerrito down to San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Basically they give him the entire East Bay, even though Native Americans like the Ohlone and Bay Miwok had already been living there for centuries. But Spain gives Peralta the land, which he then splits among his sons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fast forward 31 years. California is now part of the United States and one of Peralta’s sons, Antonio, is looking to unload some of his land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Antonio was delighted to find out that there were actually Americans that were willing to pay him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> This was because squatting was a big problem in the state’s early days … so Peralta was thrilled when two men…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> William Worthington Chipman and Gideon Aughinbaugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Made an offer on 160 acres of Peralta’s land where they established the town of Alameda.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Peralta had a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>His land was in the U.S. now and it would take the government more than 20 years to recognize his claim with a patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Evanosky:\u003c/strong> Unfortunately, by then yes the land would have belonged to him had he not sold a lot of it. And also by then Aughinbaugh and Chipman were both gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> So Peralta, Chipman and Aughinbaugh had all left Alameda by the time the government finally got around to affirming Peralta’s claim in 1874 and issuing him that patent for the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> Now Know ye, that the United States of America in consideration of the premises \u003cem>[voice fades out]\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the language in that patent, it’s really important for our purposes, and here’s the part you have to remember: [Music starts] the patent includes the piece Peralta sold to Aughinbaugh and Chipman and it says that its western border is…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over actor:\u003c/strong> “Along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> “Line of ordinary high tide.” Remember that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> On December 7, 1941 Japan like its infamous Axis partners struck first and declared war afterward…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> World War II comes to Alameda. Within months of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor, the brand new Alameda Naval Air Station becomes the launching site of the first major bombing raid on Japan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> The United States aircraft carrier Hornet … part of a taskforce steaming into Japanese waters is now revealed as the secret base from which American plans first bomb Tokyo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> After the war, the station continues to grow by filling in San Francisco bay with new land. So it was totally normal when the Navy claimed about 50 acres of the bay in 1956 to expand the base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But what happens next is not normal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the Navy adds this landfill on, it crosses over the invisible line underneath the bay that marks the border between San Francisco and Alameda. Once filled in, this tiny sliver of Alameda Island is now technically in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But no one really cares that this underwater border has been breached. What people do care about is who gets paid for this land the Navy is taking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s when two new players enter the arena: Elinor Petersen and Carol Heche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Mrs. Heche … she was a leading member of a museum when it was founded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> George Gunn is the curator of the Alameda Museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> Everybody knew that she was the granddaughter of Chipman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s William Chipman, one of the men who bought the land from Antonio Peralta to establish Alameda back in the 1850s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> That was their one claim to fame.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> It was also how Heche and Petersen claimed ownership and demanded payment from the U.S. government for the part of the bay taken by the Navy to expand the air station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Gunn:\u003c/strong> She was very proud of their heritage and she was the historian of a family. She claimed that their property extended out into into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> She made this claim based on the original Peralta land grant — the one given by Spain in 1820 — which she and Petersen said extended into the quote “deep waters of San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s the rub. That original Spanish land grant may have talked about “deep waters,” but remember that 1874 patent? It set the borders “along the Bay of San Francisco, at the line of ordinary high tide.” High tide is not the same as deep waters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And when the women took their case to court, transcripts show the judge was only interested in the patent, the U.S. definition of the borders. Here’s one exchange between the judge and Petersen, who represented the women in court.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Actors’ voices]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> The only question involved is whether or not your land comes within this patent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it does, you are entitled to judgment in your favor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> Absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> If it doesn’t, you are not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It absolutely does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Judge Alfonso Zirpoli:\u003c/strong> I think it is as simple as that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elinor Petersen:\u003c/strong> It does, absolutely, every bit of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> But the judge disagrees and rules against Heche and Petersen. They appeal the case, but to no avail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, the Feds do end up paying for the land. Just shy of 14-thousand dollars to California. And the women? They get nothing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds of walking on gravel]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> It’s so peaceful here. And what a perfect day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> We’re back on present-day Alameda Island with our question asker Lori looking across the bay at the San Francisco skyline. And yet…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> So you’re in San Francisco now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> That’s Larry Janes. He’s with the Department of Veterans Affairs which now owns the sliver, and he’s taking us on a tour of this restricted area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> This pond that we’re looking at here, in the summertime you’ll have several hundred Caspian terns that come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> After the Navy closed the air station in the late ’90s, it gave more than 600 acres of it to the VA to build a new hospital and national cemetery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> From the VA’s perspective it really doesn’t matter if it’s Alameda or San Francisco County it’s federal property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> What logistics does that mean? Like for example if a crime was committed where’s the jurisdiction?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> We actually have a contract with East Bay Regional Park District Police. And we have our own VA police as well and we work with the Alameda police so if we needed backup from Alameda we could go to them as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> But San Francisco is out of the picture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> I mean they can come over if they want but it’s a little bit of a distance for them, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> Neither Alameda nor San Francisco zone the sliver and the VA has promised not to develop it because it’s home to an endangered bird species … called the California Least Tern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Larry Janes:\u003c/strong> In order to ensure their well-being, we had to leave them a buffer zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Levi:\u003c/strong> The VA is talking to the city of Alameda about putting in a recreational trail that would hug the coastline around the sliver. So maybe one day soon, you too can walk from Alameda right into San Francisco and stand on land that was disputed all the way back to the King of Spain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme music playing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious reporter, Ryan Levi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Lori Bodenhamer for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are sending our January newsletter out next Wednesday – that’s January 10. In it, we’ll answer a question from listener Mandy Y.: “Who put up the large letters ‘South San Francisco The Industrial City’ on a hillside over the town? Why is it there?” If you’re curious, be sure you’re subscribed to get the answer at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/newsletters/bay-curious\">BayCurious.org/newsletter\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Bodenhamer:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> And we’re actually in San Francisco as we are making it today but we’re on Alameda Island. It’s weird. I’m not going to get over it. It’s just weird. It’s cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Jessica Placzek and ENGINEER for their work on this episode. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re back next week with a new episode. I’ll see you then!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11702058/why-is-part-of-alameda-island-in-san-francisco","authors":["11260"],"programs":["news_33523","news_72"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_24211","news_18352","news_38"],"featImg":"news_11702737","label":"source_news_11702058"},"news_11965937":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11965937","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11965937","score":null,"sort":[1698768039000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"as-hiv-rates-fall-nationally-latinx-communities-remain-disproportionately-impacted-why","title":"As HIV Rates Fall Nationally, Latinx Communities Remain Disproportionately Impacted. Why?","publishDate":1698768039,"format":"standard","headTitle":"As HIV Rates Fall Nationally, Latinx Communities Remain Disproportionately Impacted. Why? | KQED","labelTerm":{"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>Bay Curious, KQED’s podcast that explores the Bay Area’s unique local legends, interesting landmarks and uncovered histories, is inviting listeners to take off their headphones and take a walk in a park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 4 and 5, our journalists will take small groups on guided tours of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.aidsmemorial.org/\">National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park\u003c/a>, where they’ll tell stories about the formation of the memorial, known as The Grove. Along the way, there will be performances reflecting on the people who are remembered in the space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Overall, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV, has declined in the United States by 6% since 2010. But there’s been an escalation of new infections — 14% — in the Latinx community, particularly among gay and bisexual men. According to 2019 data from the CDC, Hispanic Americans \u003ca href=\"https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/hivaids-and-hispanic-americans#:~:text=Hispanic%20Americans%20accounted%20for%20almost,as%20compared%20to%20white%20males.\">accounted for almost 30% of new HIV infections\u003c/a> while making up only about 18% of the country’s population.[pullquote align=\"right\" size=\"medium\" citation=\"Francisco Buchting, Horizons Foundation\"]‘When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’ Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.’[/pullquote]In California, about 40% of residents identify as Hispanic or Latino, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045222\">U.S. Census Bureau data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Francisco Buchting, vice president of grants, programs and communications at Horizons Foundation, which invests in LGBTQ nonprofits, told KQED there is a stigma about HIV in the Latinx community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’” he said. “Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s, the face of the HIV movement was white, gay men. That, consequently, often left minorities absent from research literature, outreach initiatives and early treatment. In addition to homophobia, the entrenched religious beliefs in the Latinx diaspora contributed to the stigmatization of HIV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moral judgments about male same-gender relationships and fears of contagion dominated the public religious response during the first five or six years of the HIV epidemic, according to the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Additionally, the cultural value of machismo \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-hiv-latinos-508.pdf\">may create reluctance to acknowledge risky behaviors\u003c/a> such as male-to-male sexual contact or substance misuse, according to the CDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Esperanza Macias, policy and communications director with the Instituto Familiar de La Raza, a San Francisco organization that promotes health in the Latino community, said gay Latin men often had to combat living outside of the stereotypes of being a dominant alpha male because they would face harassment and assault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of men met in areas that ended up not being safe. That was the only way that they were able to explore their sexuality,” Macias said. “And, unfortunately, it was an unsafe way. And because they weren’t able to share that with their partners, oftentimes, their partners would also get HIV.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]The 2019 CDC data found that both Hispanic men and women were four times as likely to have AIDS — the condition caused by HIV — as compared to white men and women. It also found that Hispanic men were twice as likely to die of HIV infection than non-Hispanic white men, while Hispanic women were three times as likely to die than non-Hispanic white women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buchting told KQED that a growing shift in recent decades to abstinence-only sex education in the U.S. and Latin America, fueled by conservatism and religion, complicated HIV prevention efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think within the religion piece, especially in the space that I fund internationally, we look at religious fundamentalism as one of the driving forces for this — [the] safe, secure, legal access to comprehensive reproductive rights, including abortion or LGBTI rights,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Macias, who has worked to teach youth of color about sexually transmitted diseases like HIV, said the push for abstinence messaging wasn’t good for the health of young people who have hormones and are naturally curious.[aside label=\"related coverage\" tag=\"aids\"]“It was a matter of exposing people to the concepts and to the importance and recognizing that it was much more a health issue than an issue of religion,” Macias said, referring to sex education. “It was not a tradeoff between promiscuity and other negative characteristics associated with sex education. It was really a matter of being a critical health issue — that it was important for young men and young women.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Social and economic factors, like poverty, racial discrimination and lack of access to health care, can increase the risks of HIV, according to the CDC. But language barriers, low academic achievement and mistrust of the health care system may also affect the quality of HIV care many Latinos receive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also several studies that indicate HIV-infected undocumented immigrants enter care at a more advanced stage than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you’re undocumented, you may not be as comfortable responding to surveys for a host of reasons,” Buchting said. “When I was working in HIV in LA, especially a lot of the Latino patients that I saw, they were accessing services much later, compared to the non-Latino patients. And their HIV had progressed to the point that sometimes the first encounter with them was already an AIDS diagnosis as opposed to an HIV infection.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Undocumented people also face unique barriers to receiving necessary care, including stigmatization, high levels of acculturation stress, and fear of deportation, according to the National Institutes of Health. Many also have very limited access to health care coverage and are ineligible to enroll in federally-funded health care programs like Medicaid and Medicare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Buchting said that compared to decades ago, there are now many more treatment options for HIV, which is currently viewed as a chronic medical illness that can be managed. Research on HIV has progressed significantly since the 1980s, he noted, including HIV prevention medication like pre-exposure prophylaxis, commonly known as PrEP, which reduces the risk of HIV from sex by 99%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now, as HIV is evolving and less at the forefront, we’re looking at what other ways [we can] partner,” Macias said about Instituto Familiar de La Raza. “Then, if our focus is not so much on saving the LGBT Latino community from a fatal disease, what can we do to support their wellness now? And I feel like that’s a wonderful thing to witness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than 100,000 Latinos have died since the start of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, according to a 2016 CDC report. Buchting says the work being done at the organizational level is made to honor those who passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We know that, hopefully, one day, there’ll be a cure, but until then, continue to work to help those infected and those that are living with it,” he said. “And try to do as much prevention as we can.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Guided tours of the National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park are from 1–3 p.m. Nov. 4 and 5. Space is limited. Tickets cost $25. For more information and to register, visit \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/3582\">\u003ci>kqed.org\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Despite a national decline in HIV cases since 2010, infection rates have increased markedly in the Latinx community, especially among gay and bisexual men.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1698733179,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":23,"wordCount":1231},"headData":{"title":"As HIV Rates Fall Nationally, Latinx Communities Remain Disproportionately Impacted. Why? | KQED","description":"Despite a national decline in HIV cases since 2010, infection rates have increased markedly in the Latinx community, especially among gay and bisexual men.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"As HIV Rates Fall Nationally, Latinx Communities Remain Disproportionately Impacted. Why?","datePublished":"2023-10-31T16:00:39.000Z","dateModified":"2023-10-31T06:19:39.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"nprByline":"María Fernanda Bernal","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11965937/as-hiv-rates-fall-nationally-latinx-communities-remain-disproportionately-impacted-why","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Bay Curious, KQED’s podcast that explores the Bay Area’s unique local legends, interesting landmarks and uncovered histories, is inviting listeners to take off their headphones and take a walk in a park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On Nov. 4 and 5, our journalists will take small groups on guided tours of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.aidsmemorial.org/\">National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park\u003c/a>, where they’ll tell stories about the formation of the memorial, known as The Grove. Along the way, there will be performances reflecting on the people who are remembered in the space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Overall, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, human immunodeficiency virus, or HIV, has declined in the United States by 6% since 2010. But there’s been an escalation of new infections — 14% — in the Latinx community, particularly among gay and bisexual men. According to 2019 data from the CDC, Hispanic Americans \u003ca href=\"https://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/hivaids-and-hispanic-americans#:~:text=Hispanic%20Americans%20accounted%20for%20almost,as%20compared%20to%20white%20males.\">accounted for almost 30% of new HIV infections\u003c/a> while making up only about 18% of the country’s population.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’ Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"align":"right","size":"medium","citation":"Francisco Buchting, Horizons Foundation","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In California, about 40% of residents identify as Hispanic or Latino, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/CA/PST045222\">U.S. Census Bureau data\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Francisco Buchting, vice president of grants, programs and communications at Horizons Foundation, which invests in LGBTQ nonprofits, told KQED there is a stigma about HIV in the Latinx community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When HIV first started, it was the ‘gay cancer,’” he said. “Even in the present, it continues — homophobia — in parts of our community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s, the face of the HIV movement was white, gay men. That, consequently, often left minorities absent from research literature, outreach initiatives and early treatment. In addition to homophobia, the entrenched religious beliefs in the Latinx diaspora contributed to the stigmatization of HIV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Moral judgments about male same-gender relationships and fears of contagion dominated the public religious response during the first five or six years of the HIV epidemic, according to the National Center for Biotechnology Information. Additionally, the cultural value of machismo \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/factsheets/cdc-hiv-latinos-508.pdf\">may create reluctance to acknowledge risky behaviors\u003c/a> such as male-to-male sexual contact or substance misuse, according to the CDC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Esperanza Macias, policy and communications director with the Instituto Familiar de La Raza, a San Francisco organization that promotes health in the Latino community, said gay Latin men often had to combat living outside of the stereotypes of being a dominant alpha male because they would face harassment and assault.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of men met in areas that ended up not being safe. That was the only way that they were able to explore their sexuality,” Macias said. “And, unfortunately, it was an unsafe way. And because they weren’t able to share that with their partners, oftentimes, their partners would also get HIV.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>The 2019 CDC data found that both Hispanic men and women were four times as likely to have AIDS — the condition caused by HIV — as compared to white men and women. It also found that Hispanic men were twice as likely to die of HIV infection than non-Hispanic white men, while Hispanic women were three times as likely to die than non-Hispanic white women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Buchting told KQED that a growing shift in recent decades to abstinence-only sex education in the U.S. and Latin America, fueled by conservatism and religion, complicated HIV prevention efforts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think within the religion piece, especially in the space that I fund internationally, we look at religious fundamentalism as one of the driving forces for this — [the] safe, secure, legal access to comprehensive reproductive rights, including abortion or LGBTI rights,” he added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Macias, who has worked to teach youth of color about sexually transmitted diseases like HIV, said the push for abstinence messaging wasn’t good for the health of young people who have hormones and are naturally curious.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"aside","attributes":{"named":{"label":"related coverage ","tag":"aids"},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“It was a matter of exposing people to the concepts and to the importance and recognizing that it was much more a health issue than an issue of religion,” Macias said, referring to sex education. “It was not a tradeoff between promiscuity and other negative characteristics associated with sex education. It was really a matter of being a critical health issue — that it was important for young men and young women.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Social and economic factors, like poverty, racial discrimination and lack of access to health care, can increase the risks of HIV, according to the CDC. But language barriers, low academic achievement and mistrust of the health care system may also affect the quality of HIV care many Latinos receive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also several studies that indicate HIV-infected undocumented immigrants enter care at a more advanced stage than others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you’re undocumented, you may not be as comfortable responding to surveys for a host of reasons,” Buchting said. “When I was working in HIV in LA, especially a lot of the Latino patients that I saw, they were accessing services much later, compared to the non-Latino patients. And their HIV had progressed to the point that sometimes the first encounter with them was already an AIDS diagnosis as opposed to an HIV infection.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Undocumented people also face unique barriers to receiving necessary care, including stigmatization, high levels of acculturation stress, and fear of deportation, according to the National Institutes of Health. Many also have very limited access to health care coverage and are ineligible to enroll in federally-funded health care programs like Medicaid and Medicare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Buchting said that compared to decades ago, there are now many more treatment options for HIV, which is currently viewed as a chronic medical illness that can be managed. Research on HIV has progressed significantly since the 1980s, he noted, including HIV prevention medication like pre-exposure prophylaxis, commonly known as PrEP, which reduces the risk of HIV from sex by 99%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now, as HIV is evolving and less at the forefront, we’re looking at what other ways [we can] partner,” Macias said about Instituto Familiar de La Raza. “Then, if our focus is not so much on saving the LGBT Latino community from a fatal disease, what can we do to support their wellness now? And I feel like that’s a wonderful thing to witness.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More than 100,000 Latinos have died since the start of the HIV/AIDS epidemic, according to a 2016 CDC report. Buchting says the work being done at the organizational level is made to honor those who passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We know that, hopefully, one day, there’ll be a cure, but until then, continue to work to help those infected and those that are living with it,” he said. “And try to do as much prevention as we can.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Guided tours of the National AIDS Memorial Grove in Golden Gate Park are from 1–3 p.m. Nov. 4 and 5. Space is limited. Tickets cost $25. For more information and to register, visit \u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/3582\">\u003ci>kqed.org\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003ci>. \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11965937/as-hiv-rates-fall-nationally-latinx-communities-remain-disproportionately-impacted-why","authors":["byline_news_11965937"],"categories":["news_457","news_8"],"tags":["news_1510","news_30596","news_18426","news_1511","news_29548","news_33420"],"featImg":"news_11965426","label":"news"},"news_11965055":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11965055","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11965055","score":null,"sort":[1697796030000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"100-years-of-mystery-at-the-winchester-house-in-san-jose","title":"100 Years of Mystery at the Winchester House in San Jose","publishDate":1697796030,"format":"audio","headTitle":"100 Years of Mystery at the Winchester House in San Jose | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the Winchester Mystery House – and how it came to be – you have to understand the woman behind it. KQED’s Boo Curious (also known as Bay Curious) takes us inside to do just that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9473873386&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode of Boo Curious\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963206/after-100-years-the-mysteries-of-the-winchester-house-endure\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> first published Oct. 5, 2023\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"To understand the Winchester Mystery House – and how it came to be – you have to understand the woman behind it. KQED’s Boo Curious (also known as Bay Curious) takes us inside to do just that. \r\n","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1700689015,"stats":{"hasAudio":true,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":false,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":4,"wordCount":52},"headData":{"title":"100 Years of Mystery at the Winchester House in San Jose | KQED","description":"To understand the Winchester Mystery House – and how it came to be – you have to understand the woman behind it. KQED’s Boo Curious (also known as Bay Curious) takes us inside to do just that. \r\n","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"100 Years of Mystery at the Winchester House in San Jose","datePublished":"2023-10-20T10:00:30.000Z","dateModified":"2023-11-22T21:36:55.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"The Bay","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/thebay","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9473873386.mp3?updated=1697757625","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11965055/100-years-of-mystery-at-the-winchester-house-in-san-jose","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To understand the Winchester Mystery House – and how it came to be – you have to understand the woman behind it. KQED’s Boo Curious (also known as Bay Curious) takes us inside to do just that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp id=\"embed-code\" class=\"inconsolata\">\n\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm/?e=KQINC9473873386&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\n\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode of Boo Curious\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11963206/after-100-years-the-mysteries-of-the-winchester-house-endure\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> first published Oct. 5, 2023\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11965055/100-years-of-mystery-at-the-winchester-house-in-san-jose","authors":["8654","11649","11802"],"programs":["news_28779"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_18541","news_22598"],"featImg":"news_11963334","label":"source_news_11965055"},"news_11961915":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11961915","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11961915","score":null,"sort":[1695290662000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system","title":"Cashing In on the Future of California's Bottle Deposit System","publishDate":1695290662,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Cashing In on the Future of California’s Bottle Deposit System | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he remembers going to a recycling center that was part of a grocery store. He watched people walk into this large space with garbage bags full of bottles and cans. And when he noticed they were walking out with cash, he wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would have like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for, like, a 10-year-old,” Beach said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maine and California are two states with \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">a Bottle Bill\u003c/a>, a law that encourages recycling for money. When Beach moved to California, where he’s lived for the past 25 years, he looked up the closest redemption center to him in Oakland and discovered it was 5 miles away. A place called Cash for Cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Beach, it’s not worth storing several bags of containers in his apartment for a single trip. Instead, he puts his recyclables in the blue bin on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This experience had him wondering: Where does the money go for bottle-and-can redemption if residents don’t turn them into a recycling center? And why is it so hard to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Bottle Bill\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The money Beach is talking about is the California Redemption Value, or CRV — and it’s not exactly free. Whenever someone buys a drink from the store with the letters CRV printed on the label, they’re paying a 5-to-10-cent deposit at the checkout line. To get that deposit back, they have to recycle those containers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This applies mostly to beverages that come in aluminum cans and plastic bottles. The whole point is to encourage recycling and reduce litter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1986, the state passed the California Beverage Container Recycling and Litter Reduction Act, also known as the Bottle Bill. The law created the recycling deposit system many use today. California is also one of 10 states in the country with a Bottle Bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan V. Collins, president of the Container Recycling Institute in Culver City, calls Bottle Bills “the rock stars of recycling” because of the financial incentive behind them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]“People either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since passing its Bottle Bill, California has had a good track record with the number of recycled and redeemed containers. One out of five beverage containers recycled in the U.S. \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">are recycled in California\u003c/a>, according to the Container Recycling Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But recycling containers isn’t the same as redeeming them for cash. As redemption centers closed across the state, Californians were left with fewer options to redeem their bottles and cans. According to CRI, the state’s redemption rates have fallen from 74% to 60% in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962004\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/bottles-ready-to-be-recycled-at-the-recycling-center-at-church-on-market-streets-in-san-francisco-calif-on-friday-august-9-2013-safeway-is-going-to-shut-down-its-recyling-center-here-by-septemb/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962004\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962004\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"two bins of glass bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-800x533.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bottles ready to be recycled at the recycling center at Church and Market streets in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Liz Hafalia/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Redemption center deserts\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the Bottle Bill was passed in the 1980s it depended on California’s current recycling center infrastructure. Recycling centers were now obligated to give people back their money for bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of these businesses created partnerships with grocery stores to establish convenience for consumers looking for a place to recycle. They set up shop in the parking lots of a store much like the one from Beach’s childhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when revenue started to plummet at these locations because of the falling price of scrap material, many shuttered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2013, more than 40% of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/cash-in-the-can-californias-recycling-run-around/2055057/\">these recycling centers\u003c/a> have closed across the state. Collins said the Bay Area is the epicenter of these closures affecting a majority of people who depend on these centers for extra income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, San Francisco once had about 35 redemption centers scattered throughout the city. Today, there are only two and both are located in the Bayview District. CalRecycle \u003ca href=\"https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/BevContainer/RecyclingCenters/\">lists about 1,200 redemption centers\u003c/a> left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Abandoned deposits\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When bottles and cans end up in landfills and not redeemed, those deposits are considered “unclaimed” by the state. This unclaimed money sits in the Beverage Container Fund, which is managed by CalRecycle. About 400 people in the state agency who work in the beverage container program are paid out of unclaimed deposits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The money is supposed to be used to subsidize the state’s recycling infrastructure to help people get their money back. But for the most part, it stays untouched in the beverage container fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[pullquote size=\"medium\" align=\"right\" citation=\"Susan V. Collins, president, Container Recycling Institute\"]‘California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts.’[/pullquote]Some of the unclaimed deposits are paid out to redemption centers, but not a whole lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, where many rely on blue recycling bins, waste hauling companies get to cash in on the CRV money attached to those bottles and cans thrown out. Collins said only a small percentage of those recyclables are redeemed because waste haulers don’t always do a perfect job of sorting through the recycling. Inevitably, a lot of it ends up in landfill. Last year, only 13% were redeemed for CRV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said, as of last summer, the beverage container fund accumulated $672 million. She indicated that the high balance was a partial failure on behalf of the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates argue that redemption center closures and allowing waste haulers to take residents’ CRV is hurting consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem,” said Liza Tucker, consumer advocate for Consumer Watchdog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She added that working-class communities who \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11714223/when-recycling-pays-and-when-it-doesnt\">depend on recycling to pay bills\u003c/a> are hurting the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food,” Tucker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The in-lieu-fee loophole\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Under the Bottle Bill, retailers that sell beverages are required to recycle those beverages if there’s no recycling center nearby. The law was designed for the sake of convenience. But California’s Bottle Bill gives stores the option of paying out of their responsibility to recycle and redeem drink containers. This is known as the “in-lieu fee,” a penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers — a $100 fee for each day the store is not taking back recyclables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In some cases, stores \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/business/cvs-3-6-million-fine-california-recycling-trnd/index.html#:~:text=California%20is%20slapping%20CVS%20with,its%20residents%2C%20the%20state%20said\">try to get away with not paying the in-lieu fees at all\u003c/a>. In response, CalRecycle Director Rachel Machi Wagoner said, “It’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who say they are taking back in store or are paying the in-lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962006\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/customers-line-up-to-have-bottles-and-cans-weighed-before-they-receive-a-cash-payment-at-the-our-planet-recycling-collection-center-on-bayshore-boulevard-in-san-francisco-calif-on-thursday-aug-3-2/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962006\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962006\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"people lined up outside a recycling center with trash bags full of recyclable bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1722\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-800x538.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1020x686.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-160x108.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1536x1033.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-2048x1377.jpg 2048w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1920x1291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers line up to have bottles and cans weighed before they receive a cash payment at the Our Planet Recycling collection center on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco in 2017. Independent recycling centers are struggling to stay open saying the state subsidies aren’t enough to keep them in business. \u003ccite>(Paul Chinn/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Lawmakers know the system isn’t working\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2019, the state put aside $5 million to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those pilot programs is called \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/\">BottleBank\u003c/a> in San Francisco. After downloading the app, consumers drop off their containers to any BottleBank mobile drop-off location and then their recyclables get taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. The CRV is tallied up and the money is electronically delivered to the person’s bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our ultimate goal for CRV is to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming. … getting more money back into people’s pockets,” said Charles Sheehan, chief policy and public affairs officer with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the program kicked off last year, Sheehan said the department recycled more than 3 million bottles and cans and paid out about $190,000 in CRV as of this summer. There are currently \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/locations/\">20 BottleBank sites\u003c/a> set up around the city with many found parked outside Safeway, Whole Foods and Grocery Outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]Consumer advocates, however, aren’t happy with the program, saying the pilot is benefiting supermarkets more than consumers. CalRecycle lists the BottleBank sites on its website as certified recycling centers. Under the Bottle Bill, grocery stores within a certain mile radius of a recycling center don’t have to pay in-lieu fees or take back in store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook,” Tucker of Consumer Watchdog said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer Watchdog added that BottleBank is not recycling enough, because the sites are only open one day out of the week for several hours a day and the program is costing taxpayers too much to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After analyzing BottleBank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable,” it said in \u003ca href=\"https://consumerwatchdog.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/LtrBottleBankStephenshaw6-19-23.pdf\">a statement (PDF)\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In defense of the program, Sheehan stressed that it’s still in the pilot phase, which means making improvements while incurring costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re growing, and as we grow we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs,” Sheehan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BottleBank’s costs include renting the grocery store parking lot space for its operations, plus labor, marketing materials and transportation for the bottles and cans to the recycling facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to CalRecycle, the state awarded the program $500,000 to expand their services to last until the end of the year. Sheehan said the goal is to get a total of 30 locations running with longer operating hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new law could change it all\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Other Bottle Bill states like Oregon have a higher redemption rate of 85%. The state has multiple ways to redeem items using reverse vending machines, bag drop programs and in-store take back. The state also utilizes the same app-based technology as BottleBank for consumers to receive their CRV electronically. They can also get a voucher to use at their local grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 2025, it’s possible that California can start looking more like Oregon. SB 1013 passed last year and it will require grocery stores with no nearby recycling centers to be responsible for taking back empty beverage containers starting in January 2025. It also removes the optional $100-a-day in-lieu fee and adds wine and spirits to the list of redemption items.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever. CalRecycle’s Director, Rachel Wagoner, added that the machinery to build this infrastructure will not be cheap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CalRecycle is giving out more than $70 million in grant money to large grocery store chains to create this infrastructure. The agency is currently having public workshops with retailers to answer questions about the grant process. The idea is to create large-scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle items, while increasing the state’s redemption rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers. And she’s hopeful for 100% redemption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And even if I don’t hit 100%, let’s see how close we can get,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said her organization, the Container Recycling Institute, first advocated for these changes in 2009. She added that if everything goes according to plan California could have a good system in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet Collins is skeptical about how fast those changes will come. She pointed out that multiple spending programs, and an additional budget bill, passed along with the new law may exceed the resources in the Beverage Container Fund to create the redemption infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.container-recycling.org/images/2023/CRI_CalRecycle_budget_questions_Sen_06132023.pdf\">In a letter (PDF)\u003c/a> asking the state’s Senate Budget Committee to reconsider how they spend the money, Collins wrote, “The complete implementation of AB 179 and SB 1013 over 6 years will cost the beverage container fund and other accounts roughly $1.3 billion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can’t have money going outta the fund to pay for things that are not bottles and cans when that money is needed to give people their nickels and dimes back,” said Collins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he would go to this recycling center that was part of a grocery store. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Beach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a pretty big space in the grocery store. And you just bring your bottles and cans in. and they sorted them, like green bottles went here, white bottles went there, brown bottles went here.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Paul noticed that people would walk into the recycling center with a bag of … well, garbage, essentially. And they would walk out with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">cash\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I would have, like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for like a 10 year old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That experience taught Paul the literal value of recycling. Every bottle or can was worth up to fifteen cents in Maine because of the state’s\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> bottle bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. That’s a law designed to encourage recycling. When Paul moved to California, where we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">also\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have a bottle bill, he thought things would work about the same…but his nearest redemption center was far, so he never went … Now, he puts his items on the curb where they’re whisked away by a waste hauling company.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am pretty sure that the company that I pay to take the recycling fishes through and gets all the cans and they get the money for the cans and bottles. // like, you’re getting paid on both sides. It’s like, this just doesn’t seem fair.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This has all left him wondering about a few things…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Where does the money go for bottle and can redemption if we don’t bring the bottles and cans back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it so hard to find a place to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music change\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In today’s episode of Bay Curious we dig into how this recycling system works and why some argue it’s seriously broken. Plus: Who’s pocketing the CRV money from California’s unclaimed bottles and cans? I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To answer Paul’s questions about bottle and can redemption in California … KQED’s Steven Rascón has been following the money. Hey Steven!\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey Olivia.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Paul’s question is all about CRV. Can you explain what exactly that is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. CRV stands for California Redemption Value. And it applies to certain bottled and canned drinks you buy from the store. Anytime you buy one of these beverages with the letters CRV engraved on the lid or printed on the label, you’re paying 5-10 cents extra at the checkout line. Paying this extra charge is supposed to work like a deposit. Because once we’re done with that drink, we’re supposed to recycle it and get back those 10 cents.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this applies specifically to store-bought beverages… so containers of juice, coffee, water, soda …?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. This recycling system is part of a law that’s colloquially known as the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bottle Bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. We are one of ten states in the country with a Bottle Bill. Beverage containers specifically, continue to make up roughly half of roadside litter across the country. And so in the 80’s, environmentalists and lawmakers decided to do something about it in California… and pass the Bottle Bill. And recycling experts say this system works.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We know that bottle bills on average, reduce beverage container litter by 50%. So we can keep some of those plastics outta the ocean if we have bottle bills in place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Susan Collins, she’s the head of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Container Recycling Institute\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in Culver City California. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The whole reason bottle bills work like magic, why I call them the rock stars of recycling, is because of the incentive that’s attached to it. because people either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Since California passed its Bottle Bill, the number of recycled containers has shot up. The Container Recycling Institute says one out of five beverage containers recycled in the US are being recycled in California. But…not all of those bottles and cans are getting redeemed for cash. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when that happens…that money just stays in what’s called the beverage container fund. A fund that’s owned by the state.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is the unclaimed money in that fund used for? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the unclaimed deposits from those containers, the money \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that no one’s getting\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> belongs to the state. CalRecycle is the state agency that manages the fund and the program. Susan says there’s a lot of work that goes into it that we don’t see. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cal Recycle has about 400 people who work on this program, and those people are paid out of the unclaimed deposits. That money is also supposed to be used to create more ways for recycling our items. CalRecycle gives some of that money to recycling centers who redeem our bottles and cans. Some of it goes to waste hauling companies who pick up our blue bins of recyclables.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know a lot of people, like our question asker Paul and myself, put our bottles and cans in the blue bin on the curb. But who gets the money for those items? Because I know it’s not me! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to CalRecycle, the waste hauling companies that pick up our recycling like Recology get to cash in on the bottles and cans we put in them. We’re actually the only state with a Bottle Bill where this is the case. So Paul’s right when he says waste haulers are getting paid twice. Consumer advocates, by the way, are not happy with this arrangement…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another issue with the blue bin….is waste haulers don’t do a perfect job of sorting all the recycling. Oftentimes, food and trash will mix with the bottles and cans…and those containers that don’t get redeemed inevitably end up in the landfill.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Container Recycling Institute says only 13 percent of those bottles and cans being recycled are being redeemed for cash.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to recap, we’re not getting the money we throw out in blue bins and not all of it is even being recycled. It sounds like everything would be better if took things to the redemption center?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right but \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it were that easy! Yes, redemption centers are the ideal way to recycle our bottles and cans and get our money back. But good luck finding one…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Area is like the epicenter of redemption center closures, and it’s the area of the state that has the least availability of centers and the more people dependent on each and every center.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the 90’s, San Francisco once had about 35 of these centers scattered throughout the city, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">today there are only two\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…both located in the Bayview District. Since 2013 more than forty percent of these centers have closed across the state. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts. Why they’ve had to close is a whole other story, but in short – prices for recycled materials dropped so much…these businesses couldn’t survive.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music out\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is all pretty frustrating, and it’s about to get downright infuriating because Californians should, in theory, be able to take our recyclable beverage containers to the grocery store, just like our question asker Paul did when he was growing up in Maine.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And technically it’s the law. Under the Bottle Bill supermarkets and retailers that sell beverages \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">are required\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to recycle them and give us back our money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It should be just as easy to return your bottle or can for redemption as it was to purchase the bottle in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: But the problem is most supermarkets don’t take our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only a small handful actually do. And so if a supermarket refuses to take your empty cans…then they have to pay what’s called…an “in lieu fee.” A penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers. It’s a hundred dollar fine per day. But this \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">penalty\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has become a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">loophole. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a lot of these stores, $100 a day is a bargain to not have to deal with CRV redemption.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some stores try \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to get away\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> without paying the in lieu fees at all. I brought this up to CalRecycle and they said “it’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who says they are taking back in store or are paying the in lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It sounds like this system is very broken… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s what a lot of people I spoke to have said…And as a result, with fewer ways to redeem our bottles and cans, the pot of nickels and dimes in the state’s fund just keeps growing. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of the end of June last year, the beverage container fund had accumulated 672 million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Susan says you need some of that money to keep the program going but… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You certainly do not wanna have a fund balance that’s close to 700 million that indicates a program partial failure. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that …five or ten cents… extra you pay. Consumer advocates say this might not seem like a big deal for some people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The sort of middle class, upper middle class. You know, a lot of them aren’t even aware they’re paying bottle deposits when they go through the line. Um, you know, they’re not even aware.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Liza Tucker, an advocate \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">with Consumer Watchdog\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who’s written several reports on the state’s recycling and redemption system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nLiza: \u003c/b>There are a lot of people in the state of California who actually depend on that money. They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if we can’t redeem, we lose money.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s called a refundable deposit because that’s what it’s supposed to be. It’s not supposed to be a tax, but it’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem. And so we’re looking at a situation where the system. Is imploding.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This sounds like a huge mess. Has anyone tried to fix this?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawmakers know the system isn’t working like it’s supposed to…So in 2019, the state put aside 5 million dollars to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of those pilots is now operating in San Francisco. It’s called Bottle Bank. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It works through an app on your phone. And you have to have an account in order to recycle with them. The app lists their locations and hours. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I grabbed whatever bottles and cans I could find in my apartment…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of collecting of bottles and cans\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven in scene: There’s probably like 35 cents in here. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I went to one of their busiest locations outside a Safeway by the beach…to see how their operation works and if I could get some CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: “Hello? Hi. How’s it going? Good. Good…Look at all these bags.”\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jon Jon: Yeah. Bottles and cans.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: Are these all, all, all from today?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>Jon Jon: Yes. the morning shift already got about 50, 30, 50 bags.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a Bottle Bank attendant, his name is Jon Jon, he’s collecting bags…. But these aren’t just your typical trash bags… these blue colored garbage bags have a QR code on them that connect to your Bottle Bank account on your phone. Jon Jon takes my bottles and cans and throws them into one of these bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jon Jon\u003ci>:\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then scan every bag\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He scans the QR code on the bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of machine beeping\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then he scans the app on my phone. The bag of cans is now linked to my Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Jon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this day we bring it to the facility and they will process it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My bag along with the other bags of the day will be taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. This is Jim, he’s another Bottle Bank attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It distinguishes the material type as well as the size of the container and its value. When we process the bottles and cans. The money goes electronically into the Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And after three days, I had about a dollar in my account…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco officials who run the program are proud of it. Here is Charles Sheehan, He’s with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment and head of the program.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s kind of brought bottle and canned recycling into the modern age, if you will.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of this past summer, the department said it recycled more than three million bottles and cans and given out about $190,000 in CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we think about what our ultimate goal is for CRV, is like, to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming, you know, who is redeeming, getting more money back into people’s pockets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Liza from Consumer Watchdog says the pilot is not recycling enough because the Bottle Bank sites are only open-one-day-a-week…only several hours a day in select locations. And it’s …costing taxpayers too much to operate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are advocating strongly not to finance the mobile experiments because they aren’t penciling out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After analyzing Bottle Bank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program. Saying, quote: “It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable.”\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These costs include renting out the grocery store parking lots where they’re taking bags. Labor, materials, and transporting the bottes to the facility. But Liza says the biggest problem with Bottle Bank is it’s allowing grocery stores in the city \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to refuse\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> people’s empty bottles and cans… benefiting supermarkets more than consumers.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s cause under the Bottle Bill…if a grocery store is within a certain mile radius of \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a recycling center then, the store doesn’t have to recycle or redeem any of our bottles and cans…and they don’t have to pay the in lieu fee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a stipulation behind all of these pilot programs is that when they say yes to a pilot is in an underserved location it automatically absolves all the supermarkets in the area from either having to take back in store because there’s no redemption center or pay that a hundred dollars a day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In defense of the program, Charles Sheehan stresses they’re still in the pilot phase, which means making revisions while incurring costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re growing. Um, and as we grow, you know, we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> According to CalRecycle, the state just awarded 500 thousand dollars to expand the program. Sheehan says the goal is to get up to 30 locations running with longer operating hours. Meanwhile, Liza says, the tech Bottle Bank is using isn’t new.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s already proven technology. This is not innovation, quote unquote. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this is about access to redemption. The more convenient it is, the bigger the volume is of what you take in, and then you’re covering costs and making some money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>We’re one of ten states with bottle bills. Are other states having more success with their programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>Absolutely. According to the Container Recycling Institute…we have a redemption rate of 60 percent. In comparison, Maine and Oregon have redemption rates of 80 to 90 percent. In Oregon there are supermarket sized redemption centers near grocery stores with multiple ways to recycle…seven days a week sometimes 24 hours a day. Here’s Susan Collins again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can take your containers inside and they have banks of RVMs. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RVMs or reverse vending machines…are kiosks with slots in them for you to drop your items. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or if you have a small number of containers, I think if it’s under 50, you just go straight to the front counter and say, count my containers and give me my money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also drop your items off in a bag where they’re counted later…and Oregon uses the same technology as Bottle Bank…so if you want the money delivered electronically on your phone you can do that too or get a voucher and use it towards your groceries.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s why there’s a contrast between what’s going on in San Francisco. San Francisco does not have all of those locations, does not have all of those layers. And does not have locations that are open for a huge number of hours every week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s possible…that we could start looking a little like Oregon. A law passed last year says that starting in 2025…large grocery stores will no longer have $100 a day\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in lieu fee option. So they will \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">truly\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> be responsible for redeeming our bottles and cans. The idea is to create large scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle and redeem items.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The retailers have to establish a convenience infrastructure that is equivalent to what it would be if they had, you know, in-store takeback.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalRecycle is giving out more than 70 million dollars in grant money to large grocery store chains \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to create\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> this infrastructure.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever, and CalRecycle’s director Rachel Wagoner says this is a serious investment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This machinery isn’t inexpensive to buy upfront. Right. So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system. In addition to the new infrastructure, the new law will be adding wine and spirits to the list of redemption options for 25 cents a bottle.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers, taking our current redemption rate from 60 percent to a hundred.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, uh, even if I don’t hit a hundred percent, let’s see how close we can get.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Susan is also optimistic…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If everything goes according to plan. We could have a really good system in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But she is skeptical about how fast the changes will come. She says her organization first advocated for these changes back in 2009.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it happened in 2022. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also know that if we advocate for something strongly enough and long enough that eventually it will come to pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I reached out to Paul, our question asker, and told him how most of the money from unredeemed deposits just sits in the beverage container fund…because most of the redemption centers have closed. We pulled up a map of Oakland and found that the nearest redemption center to his home was more than five miles away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: I’m curious, I wanna get your thoughts on that. Is that feasible? What do you think?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul: I live in a small condo and for me there’s a headache associated with storing a whole separate bag full of cans, like, I’m not gonna go for like two or three cans.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Paul likes the idea of redeeming bottles and cans at supermarkets… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go to the grocery store to go shopping where I could return my can. So for me it’s an incentive to go shop at their store. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe someday soon Paul will once again be able to head to the grocery store with a bag of cans, and come home with a little cash in his pocket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OUTRO\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was producer and reporter Steven Rascon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Longtime listeners will know this isn’t our first rodeo talking about how recycling works and sometimes doesn’t. Find links to more episodes in our show notes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you probably know by now, we are in a fundraising period, but I wanted to point something out… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People ask me all the time how they can get their hands on some Bay Curious swag. And usually the answer is: You have to get on the show and we send you a thank you item for participating. But right now, you can get your hands on one of our thick, luxurious, Bay Curious beanies — which I’ll add are legendary among the question askers who’ve received them. All it takes is becoming a KQED member. Visit \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to learn how and stay toasty with us all winter long. Or, if you don’t need a new hat, you can choose from lots of other great gifts at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/podcasts. Thank you. Seriously! Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the entire KQED family. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Where does all of our bottle deposit money go given that most Californians do not bring their bottles back for redemption?","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1700531277,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":159,"wordCount":6164},"headData":{"title":"Cashing In on the Future of California's Bottle Deposit System | KQED","description":"Where does all of our bottle deposit money go given that most Californians do not bring their bottles back for redemption?","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Cashing In on the Future of California's Bottle Deposit System","datePublished":"2023-09-21T10:04:22.000Z","dateModified":"2023-11-21T01:47:57.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC7061057653.mp3?updated=1695311169","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11961915/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he remembers going to a recycling center that was part of a grocery store. He watched people walk into this large space with garbage bags full of bottles and cans. And when he noticed they were walking out with cash, he wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would have like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for, like, a 10-year-old,” Beach said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Maine and California are two states with \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">a Bottle Bill\u003c/a>, a law that encourages recycling for money. When Beach moved to California, where he’s lived for the past 25 years, he looked up the closest redemption center to him in Oakland and discovered it was 5 miles away. A place called Cash for Cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Beach, it’s not worth storing several bags of containers in his apartment for a single trip. Instead, he puts his recyclables in the blue bin on the street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This experience had him wondering: Where does the money go for bottle-and-can redemption if residents don’t turn them into a recycling center? And why is it so hard to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Bottle Bill\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The money Beach is talking about is the California Redemption Value, or CRV — and it’s not exactly free. Whenever someone buys a drink from the store with the letters CRV printed on the label, they’re paying a 5-to-10-cent deposit at the checkout line. To get that deposit back, they have to recycle those containers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This applies mostly to beverages that come in aluminum cans and plastic bottles. The whole point is to encourage recycling and reduce litter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1986, the state passed the California Beverage Container Recycling and Litter Reduction Act, also known as the Bottle Bill. The law created the recycling deposit system many use today. California is also one of 10 states in the country with a Bottle Bill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Susan V. Collins, president of the Container Recycling Institute in Culver City, calls Bottle Bills “the rock stars of recycling” because of the financial incentive behind them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>“People either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since passing its Bottle Bill, California has had a good track record with the number of recycled and redeemed containers. One out of five beverage containers recycled in the U.S. \u003ca href=\"https://www.bottlebill.org/index.php/current-and-proposed-laws/usa/california\">are recycled in California\u003c/a>, according to the Container Recycling Institute.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But recycling containers isn’t the same as redeeming them for cash. As redemption centers closed across the state, Californians were left with fewer options to redeem their bottles and cans. According to CRI, the state’s redemption rates have fallen from 74% to 60% in the past decade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962004\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/bottles-ready-to-be-recycled-at-the-recycling-center-at-church-on-market-streets-in-san-francisco-calif-on-friday-august-9-2013-safeway-is-going-to-shut-down-its-recyling-center-here-by-septemb/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962004\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962004\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"two bins of glass bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1707\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-800x533.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-2048x1365.jpg 2048w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1321630841-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bottles ready to be recycled at the recycling center at Church and Market streets in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Liz Hafalia/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Redemption center deserts\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the Bottle Bill was passed in the 1980s it depended on California’s current recycling center infrastructure. Recycling centers were now obligated to give people back their money for bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most of these businesses created partnerships with grocery stores to establish convenience for consumers looking for a place to recycle. They set up shop in the parking lots of a store much like the one from Beach’s childhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when revenue started to plummet at these locations because of the falling price of scrap material, many shuttered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since 2013, more than 40% of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/cash-in-the-can-californias-recycling-run-around/2055057/\">these recycling centers\u003c/a> have closed across the state. Collins said the Bay Area is the epicenter of these closures affecting a majority of people who depend on these centers for extra income.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts,” Collins said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, San Francisco once had about 35 redemption centers scattered throughout the city. Today, there are only two and both are located in the Bayview District. CalRecycle \u003ca href=\"https://www2.calrecycle.ca.gov/BevContainer/RecyclingCenters/\">lists about 1,200 redemption centers\u003c/a> left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Abandoned deposits\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When bottles and cans end up in landfills and not redeemed, those deposits are considered “unclaimed” by the state. This unclaimed money sits in the Beverage Container Fund, which is managed by CalRecycle. About 400 people in the state agency who work in the beverage container program are paid out of unclaimed deposits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The money is supposed to be used to subsidize the state’s recycling infrastructure to help people get their money back. But for the most part, it stays untouched in the beverage container fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"‘California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts.’","name":"pullquote","attributes":{"named":{"size":"medium","align":"right","citation":"Susan V. Collins, president, Container Recycling Institute","label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Some of the unclaimed deposits are paid out to redemption centers, but not a whole lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In California, where many rely on blue recycling bins, waste hauling companies get to cash in on the CRV money attached to those bottles and cans thrown out. Collins said only a small percentage of those recyclables are redeemed because waste haulers don’t always do a perfect job of sorting through the recycling. Inevitably, a lot of it ends up in landfill. Last year, only 13% were redeemed for CRV.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said, as of last summer, the beverage container fund accumulated $672 million. She indicated that the high balance was a partial failure on behalf of the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer advocates argue that redemption center closures and allowing waste haulers to take residents’ CRV is hurting consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem,” said Liza Tucker, consumer advocate for Consumer Watchdog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She added that working-class communities who \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11714223/when-recycling-pays-and-when-it-doesnt\">depend on recycling to pay bills\u003c/a> are hurting the most.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food,” Tucker said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The in-lieu-fee loophole\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Under the Bottle Bill, retailers that sell beverages are required to recycle those beverages if there’s no recycling center nearby. The law was designed for the sake of convenience. But California’s Bottle Bill gives stores the option of paying out of their responsibility to recycle and redeem drink containers. This is known as the “in-lieu fee,” a penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers — a $100 fee for each day the store is not taking back recyclables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In some cases, stores \u003ca href=\"https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/business/cvs-3-6-million-fine-california-recycling-trnd/index.html#:~:text=California%20is%20slapping%20CVS%20with,its%20residents%2C%20the%20state%20said\">try to get away with not paying the in-lieu fees at all\u003c/a>. In response, CalRecycle Director Rachel Machi Wagoner said, “It’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who say they are taking back in store or are paying the in-lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11962006\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/09/21/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system/customers-line-up-to-have-bottles-and-cans-weighed-before-they-receive-a-cash-payment-at-the-our-planet-recycling-collection-center-on-bayshore-boulevard-in-san-francisco-calif-on-thursday-aug-3-2/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11962006\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11962006\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"people lined up outside a recycling center with trash bags full of recyclable bottles and cans\" width=\"2560\" height=\"1722\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-800x538.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1020x686.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-160x108.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1536x1033.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-2048x1377.jpg 2048w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/09/GettyImages-1408767999-1-1920x1291.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers line up to have bottles and cans weighed before they receive a cash payment at the Our Planet Recycling collection center on Bayshore Boulevard in San Francisco in 2017. Independent recycling centers are struggling to stay open saying the state subsidies aren’t enough to keep them in business. \u003ccite>(Paul Chinn/The San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Lawmakers know the system isn’t working\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 2019, the state put aside $5 million to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of those pilot programs is called \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/\">BottleBank\u003c/a> in San Francisco. After downloading the app, consumers drop off their containers to any BottleBank mobile drop-off location and then their recyclables get taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. The CRV is tallied up and the money is electronically delivered to the person’s bank account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our ultimate goal for CRV is to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming. … getting more money back into people’s pockets,” said Charles Sheehan, chief policy and public affairs officer with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since the program kicked off last year, Sheehan said the department recycled more than 3 million bottles and cans and paid out about $190,000 in CRV as of this summer. There are currently \u003ca href=\"https://sfbottlebank.org/locations/\">20 BottleBank sites\u003c/a> set up around the city with many found parked outside Safeway, Whole Foods and Grocery Outlet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>Consumer advocates, however, aren’t happy with the program, saying the pilot is benefiting supermarkets more than consumers. CalRecycle lists the BottleBank sites on its website as certified recycling centers. Under the Bottle Bill, grocery stores within a certain mile radius of a recycling center don’t have to pay in-lieu fees or take back in store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook,” Tucker of Consumer Watchdog said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Consumer Watchdog added that BottleBank is not recycling enough, because the sites are only open one day out of the week for several hours a day and the program is costing taxpayers too much to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After analyzing BottleBank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable,” it said in \u003ca href=\"https://consumerwatchdog.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/LtrBottleBankStephenshaw6-19-23.pdf\">a statement (PDF)\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In defense of the program, Sheehan stressed that it’s still in the pilot phase, which means making improvements while incurring costs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re growing, and as we grow we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs,” Sheehan said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BottleBank’s costs include renting the grocery store parking lot space for its operations, plus labor, marketing materials and transportation for the bottles and cans to the recycling facility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to CalRecycle, the state awarded the program $500,000 to expand their services to last until the end of the year. Sheehan said the goal is to get a total of 30 locations running with longer operating hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new law could change it all\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Other Bottle Bill states like Oregon have a higher redemption rate of 85%. The state has multiple ways to redeem items using reverse vending machines, bag drop programs and in-store take back. The state also utilizes the same app-based technology as BottleBank for consumers to receive their CRV electronically. They can also get a voucher to use at their local grocery store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 2025, it’s possible that California can start looking more like Oregon. SB 1013 passed last year and it will require grocery stores with no nearby recycling centers to be responsible for taking back empty beverage containers starting in January 2025. It also removes the optional $100-a-day in-lieu fee and adds wine and spirits to the list of redemption items.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever. CalRecycle’s Director, Rachel Wagoner, added that the machinery to build this infrastructure will not be cheap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>CalRecycle is giving out more than $70 million in grant money to large grocery store chains to create this infrastructure. The agency is currently having public workshops with retailers to answer questions about the grant process. The idea is to create large-scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle items, while increasing the state’s redemption rate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers. And she’s hopeful for 100% redemption.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And even if I don’t hit 100%, let’s see how close we can get,” Wagoner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Collins said her organization, the Container Recycling Institute, first advocated for these changes in 2009. She added that if everything goes according to plan California could have a good system in place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet Collins is skeptical about how fast those changes will come. She pointed out that multiple spending programs, and an additional budget bill, passed along with the new law may exceed the resources in the Beverage Container Fund to create the redemption infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.container-recycling.org/images/2023/CRI_CalRecycle_budget_questions_Sen_06132023.pdf\">In a letter (PDF)\u003c/a> asking the state’s Senate Budget Committee to reconsider how they spend the money, Collins wrote, “The complete implementation of AB 179 and SB 1013 over 6 years will cost the beverage container fund and other accounts roughly $1.3 billion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We can’t have money going outta the fund to pay for things that are not bottles and cans when that money is needed to give people their nickels and dimes back,” said Collins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When Paul Beach was a kid growing up in Maine, he would go to this recycling center that was part of a grocery store. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Beach:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was a pretty big space in the grocery store. And you just bring your bottles and cans in. and they sorted them, like green bottles went here, white bottles went there, brown bottles went here.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Paul noticed that people would walk into the recycling center with a bag of … well, garbage, essentially. And they would walk out with \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">cash\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. He wanted in on the hustle.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I would have, like $50 in cans. It took me a while to get that much, but it was pretty good income for like a 10 year old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That experience taught Paul the literal value of recycling. Every bottle or can was worth up to fifteen cents in Maine because of the state’s\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> bottle bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. That’s a law designed to encourage recycling. When Paul moved to California, where we \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">also\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> have a bottle bill, he thought things would work about the same…but his nearest redemption center was far, so he never went … Now, he puts his items on the curb where they’re whisked away by a waste hauling company.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I am pretty sure that the company that I pay to take the recycling fishes through and gets all the cans and they get the money for the cans and bottles. // like, you’re getting paid on both sides. It’s like, this just doesn’t seem fair.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This has all left him wondering about a few things…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Where does the money go for bottle and can redemption if we don’t bring the bottles and cans back?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it so hard to find a place to recycle them in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music change\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In today’s episode of Bay Curious we dig into how this recycling system works and why some argue it’s seriously broken. Plus: Who’s pocketing the CRV money from California’s unclaimed bottles and cans? I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> To answer Paul’s questions about bottle and can redemption in California … KQED’s Steven Rascón has been following the money. Hey Steven!\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey Olivia.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So Paul’s question is all about CRV. Can you explain what exactly that is?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. CRV stands for California Redemption Value. And it applies to certain bottled and canned drinks you buy from the store. Anytime you buy one of these beverages with the letters CRV engraved on the lid or printed on the label, you’re paying 5-10 cents extra at the checkout line. Paying this extra charge is supposed to work like a deposit. Because once we’re done with that drink, we’re supposed to recycle it and get back those 10 cents.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And this applies specifically to store-bought beverages… so containers of juice, coffee, water, soda …?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Exactly. This recycling system is part of a law that’s colloquially known as the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bottle Bill\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. We are one of ten states in the country with a Bottle Bill. Beverage containers specifically, continue to make up roughly half of roadside litter across the country. And so in the 80’s, environmentalists and lawmakers decided to do something about it in California… and pass the Bottle Bill. And recycling experts say this system works.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Collins:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We know that bottle bills on average, reduce beverage container litter by 50%. So we can keep some of those plastics outta the ocean if we have bottle bills in place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Susan Collins, she’s the head of the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Container Recycling Institute\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in Culver City California. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The whole reason bottle bills work like magic, why I call them the rock stars of recycling, is because of the incentive that’s attached to it. because people either hold onto their bottle and turn it in for the 5 cents, or if they do litter it, someone else picks it up and takes it in for recycling.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Since California passed its Bottle Bill, the number of recycled containers has shot up. The Container Recycling Institute says one out of five beverage containers recycled in the US are being recycled in California. But…not all of those bottles and cans are getting redeemed for cash. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when that happens…that money just stays in what’s called the beverage container fund. A fund that’s owned by the state.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What is the unclaimed money in that fund used for? \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the unclaimed deposits from those containers, the money \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">that no one’s getting\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> belongs to the state. CalRecycle is the state agency that manages the fund and the program. Susan says there’s a lot of work that goes into it that we don’t see. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cal Recycle has about 400 people who work on this program, and those people are paid out of the unclaimed deposits. That money is also supposed to be used to create more ways for recycling our items. CalRecycle gives some of that money to recycling centers who redeem our bottles and cans. Some of it goes to waste hauling companies who pick up our blue bins of recyclables.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know a lot of people, like our question asker Paul and myself, put our bottles and cans in the blue bin on the curb. But who gets the money for those items? Because I know it’s not me! \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">According to CalRecycle, the waste hauling companies that pick up our recycling like Recology get to cash in on the bottles and cans we put in them. We’re actually the only state with a Bottle Bill where this is the case. So Paul’s right when he says waste haulers are getting paid twice. Consumer advocates, by the way, are not happy with this arrangement…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another issue with the blue bin….is waste haulers don’t do a perfect job of sorting all the recycling. Oftentimes, food and trash will mix with the bottles and cans…and those containers that don’t get redeemed inevitably end up in the landfill.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Container Recycling Institute says only 13 percent of those bottles and cans being recycled are being redeemed for cash.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So to recap, we’re not getting the money we throw out in blue bins and not all of it is even being recycled. It sounds like everything would be better if took things to the redemption center?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right but \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If only\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> it were that easy! Yes, redemption centers are the ideal way to recycle our bottles and cans and get our money back. But good luck finding one…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Bay Area is like the epicenter of redemption center closures, and it’s the area of the state that has the least availability of centers and the more people dependent on each and every center.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the 90’s, San Francisco once had about 35 of these centers scattered throughout the city, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">today there are only two\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…both located in the Bayview District. Since 2013 more than forty percent of these centers have closed across the state. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">California has the least convenient system in the world right now because of these redemption deserts. Why they’ve had to close is a whole other story, but in short – prices for recycled materials dropped so much…these businesses couldn’t survive.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music out\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is all pretty frustrating, and it’s about to get downright infuriating because Californians should, in theory, be able to take our recyclable beverage containers to the grocery store, just like our question asker Paul did when he was growing up in Maine.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And technically it’s the law. Under the Bottle Bill supermarkets and retailers that sell beverages \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">are required\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to recycle them and give us back our money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It should be just as easy to return your bottle or can for redemption as it was to purchase the bottle in the first place. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: But the problem is most supermarkets don’t take our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Only a small handful actually do. And so if a supermarket refuses to take your empty cans…then they have to pay what’s called…an “in lieu fee.” A penalty in lieu of redeeming empty containers. It’s a hundred dollar fine per day. But this \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">penalty\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> has become a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">loophole. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For a lot of these stores, $100 a day is a bargain to not have to deal with CRV redemption.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some stores try \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to get away\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> without paying the in lieu fees at all. I brought this up to CalRecycle and they said “it’s incredibly hard to ensure that retailers who says they are taking back in store or are paying the in lieu fee, are doing exactly what they’re saying.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It sounds like this system is very broken… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s what a lot of people I spoke to have said…And as a result, with fewer ways to redeem our bottles and cans, the pot of nickels and dimes in the state’s fund just keeps growing. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of the end of June last year, the beverage container fund had accumulated 672 million dollars. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Susan says you need some of that money to keep the program going but… \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You certainly do not wanna have a fund balance that’s close to 700 million that indicates a program partial failure. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that …five or ten cents… extra you pay. Consumer advocates say this might not seem like a big deal for some people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The sort of middle class, upper middle class. You know, a lot of them aren’t even aware they’re paying bottle deposits when they go through the line. Um, you know, they’re not even aware.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Liza Tucker, an advocate \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">with Consumer Watchdog\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> who’s written several reports on the state’s recycling and redemption system. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\nLiza: \u003c/b>There are a lot of people in the state of California who actually depend on that money. They actually need cash. They need to fill their tanks with gas. They need to buy food. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But if we can’t redeem, we lose money.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s called a refundable deposit because that’s what it’s supposed to be. It’s not supposed to be a tax, but it’s turned into a tax because we don’t have any place to take those bottles and cans to get those dimes and nickels back. That’s the fundamental problem. And so we’re looking at a situation where the system. Is imploding.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This sounds like a huge mess. Has anyone tried to fix this?\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawmakers know the system isn’t working like it’s supposed to…So in 2019, the state put aside 5 million dollars to pilot new ways to recycle and redeem our bottles and cans. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of those pilots is now operating in San Francisco. It’s called Bottle Bank. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It works through an app on your phone. And you have to have an account in order to recycle with them. The app lists their locations and hours. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I grabbed whatever bottles and cans I could find in my apartment…\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of collecting of bottles and cans\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven in scene: There’s probably like 35 cents in here. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I went to one of their busiest locations outside a Safeway by the beach…to see how their operation works and if I could get some CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: “Hello? Hi. How’s it going? Good. Good…Look at all these bags.”\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jon Jon: Yeah. Bottles and cans.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: Are these all, all, all from today?\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>Jon Jon: Yes. the morning shift already got about 50, 30, 50 bags.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s a Bottle Bank attendant, his name is Jon Jon, he’s collecting bags…. But these aren’t just your typical trash bags… these blue colored garbage bags have a QR code on them that connect to your Bottle Bank account on your phone. Jon Jon takes my bottles and cans and throws them into one of these bags. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jon Jon\u003ci>:\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then scan every bag\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He scans the QR code on the bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sound of machine beeping\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then he scans the app on my phone. The bag of cans is now linked to my Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Jon: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After this day we bring it to the facility and they will process it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My bag along with the other bags of the day will be taken to an offsite recycling center for sorting. This is Jim, he’s another Bottle Bank attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It distinguishes the material type as well as the size of the container and its value. When we process the bottles and cans. The money goes electronically into the Bottle Bank account. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And after three days, I had about a dollar in my account…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco officials who run the program are proud of it. Here is Charles Sheehan, He’s with San Francisco’s Department of the Environment and head of the program.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it’s kind of brought bottle and canned recycling into the modern age, if you will.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As of this past summer, the department said it recycled more than three million bottles and cans and given out about $190,000 in CRV.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When we think about what our ultimate goal is for CRV, is like, to rapidly increase how many people are redeeming, you know, who is redeeming, getting more money back into people’s pockets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Liza from Consumer Watchdog says the pilot is not recycling enough because the Bottle Bank sites are only open-one-day-a-week…only several hours a day in select locations. And it’s …costing taxpayers too much to operate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are advocating strongly not to finance the mobile experiments because they aren’t penciling out.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">After analyzing Bottle Bank’s expenses, Consumer Watchdog asked the state’s Department of Finance to no longer fund the program. Saying, quote: “It is costing 79 cents to return a nickel to consumers. And it will never be sustainable.”\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These costs include renting out the grocery store parking lots where they’re taking bags. Labor, materials, and transporting the bottes to the facility. But Liza says the biggest problem with Bottle Bank is it’s allowing grocery stores in the city \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to refuse\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> people’s empty bottles and cans… benefiting supermarkets more than consumers.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the minute that they approved this particular pilot, 400 stores got off the hook.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s cause under the Bottle Bill…if a grocery store is within a certain mile radius of \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">a recycling center then, the store doesn’t have to recycle or redeem any of our bottles and cans…and they don’t have to pay the in lieu fee. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because a stipulation behind all of these pilot programs is that when they say yes to a pilot is in an underserved location it automatically absolves all the supermarkets in the area from either having to take back in store because there’s no redemption center or pay that a hundred dollars a day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In defense of the program, Charles Sheehan stresses they’re still in the pilot phase, which means making revisions while incurring costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Charles: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re growing. Um, and as we grow, you know, we will continue to kind of bring in more revenues and bring our revenues in line with our costs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> According to CalRecycle, the state just awarded 500 thousand dollars to expand the program. Sheehan says the goal is to get up to 30 locations running with longer operating hours. Meanwhile, Liza says, the tech Bottle Bank is using isn’t new.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Liza: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s already proven technology. This is not innovation, quote unquote. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of this is about access to redemption. The more convenient it is, the bigger the volume is of what you take in, and then you’re covering costs and making some money.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>We’re one of ten states with bottle bills. Are other states having more success with their programs?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>Absolutely. According to the Container Recycling Institute…we have a redemption rate of 60 percent. In comparison, Maine and Oregon have redemption rates of 80 to 90 percent. In Oregon there are supermarket sized redemption centers near grocery stores with multiple ways to recycle…seven days a week sometimes 24 hours a day. Here’s Susan Collins again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can take your containers inside and they have banks of RVMs. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">RVMs or reverse vending machines…are kiosks with slots in them for you to drop your items. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Or if you have a small number of containers, I think if it’s under 50, you just go straight to the front counter and say, count my containers and give me my money. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can also drop your items off in a bag where they’re counted later…and Oregon uses the same technology as Bottle Bank…so if you want the money delivered electronically on your phone you can do that too or get a voucher and use it towards your groceries.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So that’s why there’s a contrast between what’s going on in San Francisco. San Francisco does not have all of those locations, does not have all of those layers. And does not have locations that are open for a huge number of hours every week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But it’s possible…that we could start looking a little like Oregon. A law passed last year says that starting in 2025…large grocery stores will no longer have $100 a day\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">in lieu fee option. So they will \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">truly\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> be responsible for redeeming our bottles and cans. The idea is to create large scale redemption centers with multiple ways to recycle and redeem items.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The retailers have to establish a convenience infrastructure that is equivalent to what it would be if they had, you know, in-store takeback.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">CalRecycle is giving out more than 70 million dollars in grant money to large grocery store chains \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to create\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> this infrastructure.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s considered one of the biggest improvements to the Bottle Bill ever, and CalRecycle’s director Rachel Wagoner says this is a serious investment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This machinery isn’t inexpensive to buy upfront. Right. So if the state’s gonna purchase it, we wanna make sure that that is a long-term investment that we’re making in the recycling system. In addition to the new infrastructure, the new law will be adding wine and spirits to the list of redemption options for 25 cents a bottle.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wagoner is optimistic that the new law will make a real difference in the number of redeemed containers, taking our current redemption rate from 60 percent to a hundred.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wagoner: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, uh, even if I don’t hit a hundred percent, let’s see how close we can get.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And Susan is also optimistic…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If everything goes according to plan. We could have a really good system in California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But she is skeptical about how fast the changes will come. She says her organization first advocated for these changes back in 2009.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it happened in 2022. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I also know that if we advocate for something strongly enough and long enough that eventually it will come to pass. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I reached out to Paul, our question asker, and told him how most of the money from unredeemed deposits just sits in the beverage container fund…because most of the redemption centers have closed. We pulled up a map of Oakland and found that the nearest redemption center to his home was more than five miles away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Steven: I’m curious, I wanna get your thoughts on that. Is that feasible? What do you think?\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Paul: I live in a small condo and for me there’s a headache associated with storing a whole separate bag full of cans, like, I’m not gonna go for like two or three cans.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But Paul likes the idea of redeeming bottles and cans at supermarkets… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I would go to the grocery store to go shopping where I could return my can. So for me it’s an incentive to go shop at their store. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Maybe someday soon Paul will once again be able to head to the grocery store with a bag of cans, and come home with a little cash in his pocket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>OUTRO\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was producer and reporter Steven Rascon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Longtime listeners will know this isn’t our first rodeo talking about how recycling works and sometimes doesn’t. Find links to more episodes in our show notes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">As you probably know by now, we are in a fundraising period, but I wanted to point something out… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People ask me all the time how they can get their hands on some Bay Curious swag. And usually the answer is: You have to get on the show and we send you a thank you item for participating. But right now, you can get your hands on one of our thick, luxurious, Bay Curious beanies — which I’ll add are legendary among the question askers who’ve received them. All it takes is becoming a KQED member. Visit \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> to learn how and stay toasty with us all winter long. Or, if you don’t need a new hat, you can choose from lots of other great gifts at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">donate.kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">/podcasts. Thank you. Seriously! Thank you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the entire KQED family. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11961915/cashing-in-on-californias-broken-bottle-deposit-system","authors":["11816"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_31795","news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426","news_33227","news_23053","news_382"],"featImg":"news_11961978","label":"news_33523"},"news_11956649":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11956649","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11956649","score":null,"sort":[1690638347000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team","title":"Why Doesn't the Bay Area Have a Pro Women's Sports Team?","publishDate":1690638347,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Why Doesn’t the Bay Area Have a Pro Women’s Sports Team? | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>Afifa Tawil works for the women’s and non-binary semi-pro ultimate frisbee team, \u003ca href=\"https://www.falconsultimate.com/\">the San Francisco Falcons\u003c/a>, and she’s noticed something: The Bay Area has a men’s pro football team, a men’s pro basketball team, a men’s pro soccer team, a men’s pro hockey team, and (at least for now) two men’s pro baseball teams.[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s a lot of sports. But no women’s pro team!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So she wants to know why. “Why isn’t there a professional women’s or non-binary team in the Bay Area?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afifa thinks our area has a lot going for it: a big, outdoors-y population and progressive values that would appear supportive of women’s sports. Other places have women’s pro sports teams. Why not here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The good news first\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Well, first off: There is one coming. The newest team in the National Women’s Soccer League, the Bay FC, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11952128/bay-areas-first-professional-womens-soccer-team-kicks-off-with-public-launch\">held a launch event last month\u003c/a> and they are getting ready for their debut season in spring 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it took a long time to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Brandi Chastain, \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-A1-Rz_pks\">of World Cup fame\u003c/a>, it took almost two years to get the team off the ground. Chastain, who grew up playing on the boys team in San José, is one of four founders of the Bay FC — all of whom grew up or live in the Bay Area, and all of whom played on the U.S. national team. They said it has taken years and multiple attempts to line up investment partners, media and interest. And that interest is finally building and momentum is shifting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has to be the right time and the right moment with the right people,” she said at the launch event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other piece of semi-good news: There actually have been women’s pro teams in the Bay Area before — from basketball to softball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the bad news: They all folded. The past attempts at women’s pro teams couldn’t survive. Which means Tawil’s question still stands. Why exactly did it take so long for the Bay Area to get this newest professional women’s team? Shouldn’t women’s sports be big here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>In the beginning\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before professional sports — men’s or women’s — really existed in a modern form, elite women’s sports could be found throughout the Bay Area. In fact, the first collegiate women’s basketball ever played was here, between Stanford and UC Berkeley back in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956654\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1132px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/sf-call-image-1132x917/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956654\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956654\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg\" alt=\"an old-fashioned drawing of women on a basketball court\" width=\"1132\" height=\"917\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg 1132w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-800x648.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-1020x826.jpeg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-160x130.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1132px) 100vw, 1132px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An artist from The San Francisco Call captured the historic basketball game. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Call/Library of Congress)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The sport had only been invented a few years earlier and you probably wouldn’t recognize it now. Nine women played on a half-size court, wearing the athletic clothing of the day: knee-length bloomers, tall socks, and long-sleeve sweaters. Still, it was a hard-fought battle. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> wrote, at the time:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“From the very first the game was snappy. The bewitched pigskin seemed to be everywhere and nowhere … Sometimes with a slump and a slide three girls would dive for the ball and end in an inextricable heap … In less time than it takes to read it they were all planted firmly on their two feet, flushed, perspiring … oblivious of everything except that ball.”\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>A crowd of 700 women cheered on the teams and, even though men weren’t allowed in the gym, many watched through the windows. Stanford won, and when they returned to campus they were greeted by crowds and the famous Stanford band.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were pockets like this throughout the Bay Area during the late 1800s and early 1900s, said \u003ca href=\"https://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/kpe/libertirita.html\">Rita Liberti\u003c/a>, a professor of sports history at CSU East Bay. “Softball was huge among a range of communities across class and race and ethnicity,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basketball was played in Chinatown and around San Francisco. Women’s swimming was big, especially in Santa Clara. San Francisco even had a pro co-ed roller derby team — called the Bay Bombers — who played mostly at Kezar Stadium and Cow Palace and, at one point, drew 1 million spectators a year along with television broadcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was running. For example, the Dipsea Race, in Marin County, was popular for elite competitive women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From 1918 to 1922, it was really an incredible run, hundreds of participants, thousands of people watching,” said Liberti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956841\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/i/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956841\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956841\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg\" alt=\"an older black and white photo shows a crowd of women dressed in old-fashioned athlete gear gathered at a start line\" width=\"920\" height=\"518\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg 920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-800x450.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-160x90.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 920px) 100vw, 920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Dipsea ‘Hike’ for women drew huge numbers from 1918–1922. \u003ccite>(Dipsea Race Committee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It was called a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.dipsea.org/news/2018-02-11-womenshikehistory.php\">hike\u003c/a>” to get around bans at the time on women running competitively. But despite that, and even wearing long skirts and boots, the winning woman in 1922 covered the mountainous 7.5-mile course in one hour and 12 minutes. It’s a time that would place her in the top quarter of athletes at this year’s race. Her “hike” was most definitely a run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re talking about girls and women who were kind of everyday athletes. But we’re also talking about elite athleticism, women who were really skilled,” said Liberti. “And all of this is happening in the San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, we \u003cem>were\u003c/em> a place for elite women’s sports. But then came the pushback.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A 50-year ban\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every time women found a place for elite athleticism in the first half of the century, there came periodic backlash. Just a few years after that first basketball game, Stanford put an end to all intercollegiate women’s sports for fear of the stress on women’s bodies. A conservative wave then pushed across the country starting in the 1920s, seen across all aspects of life. And, while small fringe pockets for women to thrive could continue to be found, the Bay Area was not immune to conservative fears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[T]he reason why the Dipsea Hike, the race, ended in 1922, is that community leaders felt it was too harsh for women to continue running that race. And so there’s still those combination [of] fears about female frailty, like their ovaries are going to fall out or something if they run up and down a basketball court, or that they’ll become too mannish,” said Liberti. “The Bay Area may seem intensely progressive. But it carries with it ideas about gender, and we’re not immune from that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the last Dipsea women’s hike in 1922, the race wouldn’t open back up to women for five decades — until 1971.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened across many women’s sports, with many facing decades of being barred from participating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When that finally changed, after so many years of being banned or limited, building a foundation back up for women’s sports was slow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Title IX — the landmark legislation that banned gender discrimination — passed a year later, in 1972, it wasn’t until 1982 that the NCAA even added women’s basketball. That’s nearly 90 years after that first Stanford-Cal game was played.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the 1970s, modern pro men’s sports as we think of them were really taking shape with money, sponsors, tickets and TV deals. This is when we first see an attempt at professional women’s teams, too. But they were on the back foot, having to catch up to the audience and investment that men’s teams had built.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Meet the SF Pioneers\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It was then, in 1979, that San Francisco got a women’s professional basketball team: the SF Pioneers. They joined the brand new, first of its kind, women’s pro basketball league, which called itself the WBL.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dream come true for me, because I never thought the United States would ever have a women’s league,” said \u003ca href=\"https://thelegends.org/our-team/\">Cardte Hicks\u003c/a>, one of the women on that team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBkMz2ix2_0\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hicks had played for CSU Northridge and had a 42-inch vertical jump. She was recruited to San Francisco by the coach, Frank LaPorte, who had heard of her and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Inspiring-dunks-of-Stanford-s-Belibi-echo-16036458.php\">her famous dunking\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never even knew that dunking was something spectacular. I just thought it was fun to be able to get up that high,” she said, “He had heard a lot about me playing in AAU. I played for my brothers, because they wouldn’t allow women to play, so they’d dress me up like a boy, tape my boobs down, what little bit I did have,” she said. “And people would come out because they’d heard about that girl that could jump.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Pioneers played at the Civic Center and were supported by Willie Brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One thing I can truly say is that San Francisco showed some love, in the gay community, more so than any community. They were just so supportive. They wanted this to grow,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the players didn’t get paid much and, after the novelty wore off, they didn’t get much media attention or marketing either. “We didn’t get marketed like they do with the WNBA. We didn’t have a lot of money. Me personally, I’d have played for nothing, as long as I can get out there and play,” said Hicks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much did she get paid? About $1,500 per month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956859\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956859\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of 4 women on a basketball court. Three of them wear dark uniforms, and one is in a white uniform. The 2 women in the middle ground are leaping into the air after a basketball that is above them out of frame.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1306\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-160x261.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-941x1536.jpg 941w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg 992w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Pioneers, a women’s professional basketball team, playing a game in the first national league on Dec. 30, 1980. \u003ccite>(Steve Ringman/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The players were good, though, she said. Imagine if they’d had the opportunities available now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the league folded, it was a heartbreaker for all of us,” she said. By 1981, the WBL was done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, many of those players, including Hicks, were honored by the WNBA and inducted into the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wbhof.com/\">Women’s Basketball Hall of Fame\u003c/a>. But back in the early ’80s, without enough capital or coverage, the WBL couldn’t last. The team and league shut down and Hicks went back to playing overseas where there were more opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened to a lot of the newly formed women’s pro teams during the ’70s and ’80s. They keep getting shortchanged and shut down, struggling to catch up to the head start the men’s teams had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these women’s pro sport leagues are short lived,” said Liberti, “Like they come and they go, they’re in and they’re out. They don’t have funding. There’s no capital. There’s no media following them at this point.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This pattern continued for decades. There was the San Jose Sunbirds, a pro softball team, which was later followed by the California Sunbirds in Stockton, which were part of the on-and-off National Pro Fastpitch league. There was the FC Gold Pride, part of one of the early women’s pro soccer leagues, who played in Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a number of different women’s pro teams in the Bay Area over the years, but they haven’t lasted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are things finally changing? Has the time finally come for one to succeed here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A shift happening\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Back to the launch of the new women’s pro soccer team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just think sometimes people are resistant to understanding what is possible if they haven’t seen it done before,” said Aly Wagner, another one of the four founders of the Bay FC. Wagner also played on the national team and in previous women’s pro leagues — none of which lasted. “We’re in a very different place now than where we were then. And one of the things that I keep coming back to is that there were always gatekeepers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What Wagner means is that for a long time the people who make the decisions in regards to sports funding kept saying: “No point in investing in women’s sports; no one wants to watch women’s sports; don’t put them on TV.” And so nothing happened. There was no investment, media or marketing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, though, in July 2023, as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/2023-womens-world-cup-breaks-ticket-sale-records-viewership-way-up-over-2019/\">Women’s World Cup\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/232-million-watched-live-broadcasts-of-2022-tour-de-france-femmes/\">Tour de France Femmes\u003c/a> draw millions of viewers, it’s hard not to notice a shift happening globally. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/articles/ncaa-womens-basketball-final-ratings-record-c8a9f218\">Almost 10 million people tuned in for the women’s March Madness final\u003c/a>. WNBA opening weekend viewership was up 100%. \u003ca href=\"https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/37630607/women-attendances-dominated-european-football-2022\">The three most attended soccer games in Europe last year were all women’s matches\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s clear there is money to be made — and that’s what’s changing. Investors now see there’s a market, an audience, an entire base of women’s sports fans who are not being served. And with the potential for profit, comes funding, which brings broadcast TV deals. And since you can’t be a fan of what you can’t see, that brings more viewers and more fans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now I think that people are starting to understand that the momentum is there, the data is there. Everything is signaling that this is the right time,” Wagner said. “It might have been the right time before, but now it’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> the right time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956860\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A row of people smile at the camera, they are all wearing items of clothing with the logo for a women's soccer team called "Bay FC."\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sheryl Sandberg, Danielle Slaton, Brandi Chastain, Leslie Osborne and Aly Wagner pose for a photo with other attendees at a kickoff event for Bay FC, the Bay Area’s first team in the National Women’s Soccer League, at the Presidio in San Francisco, on June 3, 2023. \u003ccite>(Kori Suzuki/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the Bay FC team launch event, fans were excited too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oh, I’m so excited,” said Deepa Patel. “I started watching the NWSL after the 2015 World Cup and since then I’ve just been waiting for a team.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Finally we have a women’s team in Northern California. We don’t have to fly to Portland, we don’t have to go to L.A., we don’t have to fly to San Diego. Finally we have something representing Northern California, and the Bay Area,” said Monica MacMillan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have always been women’s sports in the Bay Area. There are professional runners, cyclists, tennis players, swimmers, and ice-skaters. There are semi-pro teams here, too. But now it might really be time for a fully-fledged, fully-funded major pro team that lasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just one last obstacle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also efforts to bring a WNBA expansion team here, though the commissioner has said “\u003ca href=\"https://justwomenssports.com/reads/wnba-expansion-teams-timeline-cathy-engelbert-commissioner/\">not yet\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue is another factor that answers Afifa Tawil’s original question. It can be tough to start teams in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s often easier to start out and build in smaller markets, especially during the survival mode women’s sports have historically existed in. In small markets, you can sometimes build women’s teams as a kind of homegrown oddity attraction. The Bay Area, by contrast, is a little hard for people to get their heads around, a little hard to conquer for any one new team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think the Bay Area is perhaps daunting to a lot of people because we have so much going on there,” said Wagner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s so spread out, so diverse, there’s so many other things to do besides sit inside and watch sports on TV. We’re not always considered a great sports market. But Brandi Chastain disagrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area is the best sports town and we’re going to prove it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay FC starts play in the spring and after that, who knows. Maybe a WNBA team in Oakland. Or dream big: A softball team in Hayward; a women’s hockey team in San José. Momentum is building. As the women’s soccer fans like to say: LFG.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Lots of other cities have professional women's sports — and San Francisco has had teams in the past, but not now. Is that all about to change?","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1700531356,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":true,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":65,"wordCount":2811},"headData":{"title":"Why Doesn't the Bay Area Have a Pro Women's Sports Team? | KQED","description":"Lots of other cities have professional women's sports — and San Francisco has had teams in the past, but not now. Is that all about to change?","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Why Doesn't the Bay Area Have a Pro Women's Sports Team?","datePublished":"2023-07-29T13:45:47.000Z","dateModified":"2023-11-21T01:49:16.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9938896289.mp3?updated=1689830500","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11956649/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Afifa Tawil works for the women’s and non-binary semi-pro ultimate frisbee team, \u003ca href=\"https://www.falconsultimate.com/\">the San Francisco Falcons\u003c/a>, and she’s noticed something: The Bay Area has a men’s pro football team, a men’s pro basketball team, a men’s pro soccer team, a men’s pro hockey team, and (at least for now) two men’s pro baseball teams.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s a lot of sports. But no women’s pro team!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So she wants to know why. “Why isn’t there a professional women’s or non-binary team in the Bay Area?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Afifa thinks our area has a lot going for it: a big, outdoors-y population and progressive values that would appear supportive of women’s sports. Other places have women’s pro sports teams. Why not here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The good news first\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Well, first off: There is one coming. The newest team in the National Women’s Soccer League, the Bay FC, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11952128/bay-areas-first-professional-womens-soccer-team-kicks-off-with-public-launch\">held a launch event last month\u003c/a> and they are getting ready for their debut season in spring 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it took a long time to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Brandi Chastain, \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-A1-Rz_pks\">of World Cup fame\u003c/a>, it took almost two years to get the team off the ground. Chastain, who grew up playing on the boys team in San José, is one of four founders of the Bay FC — all of whom grew up or live in the Bay Area, and all of whom played on the U.S. national team. They said it has taken years and multiple attempts to line up investment partners, media and interest. And that interest is finally building and momentum is shifting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has to be the right time and the right moment with the right people,” she said at the launch event.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other piece of semi-good news: There actually have been women’s pro teams in the Bay Area before — from basketball to softball.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the bad news: They all folded. The past attempts at women’s pro teams couldn’t survive. Which means Tawil’s question still stands. Why exactly did it take so long for the Bay Area to get this newest professional women’s team? Shouldn’t women’s sports be big here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>In the beginning\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before professional sports — men’s or women’s — really existed in a modern form, elite women’s sports could be found throughout the Bay Area. In fact, the first collegiate women’s basketball ever played was here, between Stanford and UC Berkeley back in 1896.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956654\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1132px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/sf-call-image-1132x917/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956654\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956654\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg\" alt=\"an old-fashioned drawing of women on a basketball court\" width=\"1132\" height=\"917\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1.jpeg 1132w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-800x648.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-1020x826.jpeg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/SF-Call-image-1132x917-1-160x130.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1132px) 100vw, 1132px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An artist from The San Francisco Call captured the historic basketball game. \u003ccite>(San Francisco Call/Library of Congress)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The sport had only been invented a few years earlier and you probably wouldn’t recognize it now. Nine women played on a half-size court, wearing the athletic clothing of the day: knee-length bloomers, tall socks, and long-sleeve sweaters. Still, it was a hard-fought battle. \u003cem>The San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> wrote, at the time:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“From the very first the game was snappy. The bewitched pigskin seemed to be everywhere and nowhere … Sometimes with a slump and a slide three girls would dive for the ball and end in an inextricable heap … In less time than it takes to read it they were all planted firmly on their two feet, flushed, perspiring … oblivious of everything except that ball.”\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>A crowd of 700 women cheered on the teams and, even though men weren’t allowed in the gym, many watched through the windows. Stanford won, and when they returned to campus they were greeted by crowds and the famous Stanford band.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were pockets like this throughout the Bay Area during the late 1800s and early 1900s, said \u003ca href=\"https://www.csueastbay.edu/directory/profiles/kpe/libertirita.html\">Rita Liberti\u003c/a>, a professor of sports history at CSU East Bay. “Softball was huge among a range of communities across class and race and ethnicity,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Basketball was played in Chinatown and around San Francisco. Women’s swimming was big, especially in Santa Clara. San Francisco even had a pro co-ed roller derby team — called the Bay Bombers — who played mostly at Kezar Stadium and Cow Palace and, at one point, drew 1 million spectators a year along with television broadcasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there was running. For example, the Dipsea Race, in Marin County, was popular for elite competitive women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“From 1918 to 1922, it was really an incredible run, hundreds of participants, thousands of people watching,” said Liberti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956841\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 920px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2023/07/29/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team/i/\" rel=\"attachment wp-att-11956841\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11956841\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg\" alt=\"an older black and white photo shows a crowd of women dressed in old-fashioned athlete gear gathered at a start line\" width=\"920\" height=\"518\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i.jpeg 920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-800x450.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/i-160x90.jpeg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 920px) 100vw, 920px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Dipsea ‘Hike’ for women drew huge numbers from 1918–1922. \u003ccite>(Dipsea Race Committee)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It was called a “\u003ca href=\"https://www.dipsea.org/news/2018-02-11-womenshikehistory.php\">hike\u003c/a>” to get around bans at the time on women running competitively. But despite that, and even wearing long skirts and boots, the winning woman in 1922 covered the mountainous 7.5-mile course in one hour and 12 minutes. It’s a time that would place her in the top quarter of athletes at this year’s race. Her “hike” was most definitely a run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re talking about girls and women who were kind of everyday athletes. But we’re also talking about elite athleticism, women who were really skilled,” said Liberti. “And all of this is happening in the San Francisco Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For decades, we \u003cem>were\u003c/em> a place for elite women’s sports. But then came the pushback.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A 50-year ban\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Every time women found a place for elite athleticism in the first half of the century, there came periodic backlash. Just a few years after that first basketball game, Stanford put an end to all intercollegiate women’s sports for fear of the stress on women’s bodies. A conservative wave then pushed across the country starting in the 1920s, seen across all aspects of life. And, while small fringe pockets for women to thrive could continue to be found, the Bay Area was not immune to conservative fears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[T]he reason why the Dipsea Hike, the race, ended in 1922, is that community leaders felt it was too harsh for women to continue running that race. And so there’s still those combination [of] fears about female frailty, like their ovaries are going to fall out or something if they run up and down a basketball court, or that they’ll become too mannish,” said Liberti. “The Bay Area may seem intensely progressive. But it carries with it ideas about gender, and we’re not immune from that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the last Dipsea women’s hike in 1922, the race wouldn’t open back up to women for five decades — until 1971.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened across many women’s sports, with many facing decades of being barred from participating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When that finally changed, after so many years of being banned or limited, building a foundation back up for women’s sports was slow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Title IX — the landmark legislation that banned gender discrimination — passed a year later, in 1972, it wasn’t until 1982 that the NCAA even added women’s basketball. That’s nearly 90 years after that first Stanford-Cal game was played.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And by the 1970s, modern pro men’s sports as we think of them were really taking shape with money, sponsors, tickets and TV deals. This is when we first see an attempt at professional women’s teams, too. But they were on the back foot, having to catch up to the audience and investment that men’s teams had built.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Meet the SF Pioneers\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It was then, in 1979, that San Francisco got a women’s professional basketball team: the SF Pioneers. They joined the brand new, first of its kind, women’s pro basketball league, which called itself the WBL.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was like a dream come true for me, because I never thought the United States would ever have a women’s league,” said \u003ca href=\"https://thelegends.org/our-team/\">Cardte Hicks\u003c/a>, one of the women on that team.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/eBkMz2ix2_0'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/eBkMz2ix2_0'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Hicks had played for CSU Northridge and had a 42-inch vertical jump. She was recruited to San Francisco by the coach, Frank LaPorte, who had heard of her and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/ostler/article/Inspiring-dunks-of-Stanford-s-Belibi-echo-16036458.php\">her famous dunking\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never even knew that dunking was something spectacular. I just thought it was fun to be able to get up that high,” she said, “He had heard a lot about me playing in AAU. I played for my brothers, because they wouldn’t allow women to play, so they’d dress me up like a boy, tape my boobs down, what little bit I did have,” she said. “And people would come out because they’d heard about that girl that could jump.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Pioneers played at the Civic Center and were supported by Willie Brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One thing I can truly say is that San Francisco showed some love, in the gay community, more so than any community. They were just so supportive. They wanted this to grow,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the players didn’t get paid much and, after the novelty wore off, they didn’t get much media attention or marketing either. “We didn’t get marketed like they do with the WNBA. We didn’t have a lot of money. Me personally, I’d have played for nothing, as long as I can get out there and play,” said Hicks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How much did she get paid? About $1,500 per month.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956859\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956859\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of 4 women on a basketball court. Three of them wear dark uniforms, and one is in a white uniform. The 2 women in the middle ground are leaping into the air after a basketball that is above them out of frame.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1306\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-800x1306.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-160x261.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847-941x1536.jpg 941w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/GettyImages-1206294847.jpg 992w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The San Francisco Pioneers, a women’s professional basketball team, playing a game in the first national league on Dec. 30, 1980. \u003ccite>(Steve Ringman/San Francisco Chronicle via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The players were good, though, she said. Imagine if they’d had the opportunities available now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When the league folded, it was a heartbreaker for all of us,” she said. By 1981, the WBL was done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A few years ago, many of those players, including Hicks, were honored by the WNBA and inducted into the \u003ca href=\"https://www.wbhof.com/\">Women’s Basketball Hall of Fame\u003c/a>. But back in the early ’80s, without enough capital or coverage, the WBL couldn’t last. The team and league shut down and Hicks went back to playing overseas where there were more opportunities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This happened to a lot of the newly formed women’s pro teams during the ’70s and ’80s. They keep getting shortchanged and shut down, struggling to catch up to the head start the men’s teams had.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these women’s pro sport leagues are short lived,” said Liberti, “Like they come and they go, they’re in and they’re out. They don’t have funding. There’s no capital. There’s no media following them at this point.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This pattern continued for decades. There was the San Jose Sunbirds, a pro softball team, which was later followed by the California Sunbirds in Stockton, which were part of the on-and-off National Pro Fastpitch league. There was the FC Gold Pride, part of one of the early women’s pro soccer leagues, who played in Hayward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a number of different women’s pro teams in the Bay Area over the years, but they haven’t lasted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are things finally changing? Has the time finally come for one to succeed here?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A shift happening\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Back to the launch of the new women’s pro soccer team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just think sometimes people are resistant to understanding what is possible if they haven’t seen it done before,” said Aly Wagner, another one of the four founders of the Bay FC. Wagner also played on the national team and in previous women’s pro leagues — none of which lasted. “We’re in a very different place now than where we were then. And one of the things that I keep coming back to is that there were always gatekeepers.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What Wagner means is that for a long time the people who make the decisions in regards to sports funding kept saying: “No point in investing in women’s sports; no one wants to watch women’s sports; don’t put them on TV.” And so nothing happened. There was no investment, media or marketing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, though, in July 2023, as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/2023-womens-world-cup-breaks-ticket-sale-records-viewership-way-up-over-2019/\">Women’s World Cup\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/232-million-watched-live-broadcasts-of-2022-tour-de-france-femmes/\">Tour de France Femmes\u003c/a> draw millions of viewers, it’s hard not to notice a shift happening globally. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wsj.com/articles/ncaa-womens-basketball-final-ratings-record-c8a9f218\">Almost 10 million people tuned in for the women’s March Madness final\u003c/a>. WNBA opening weekend viewership was up 100%. \u003ca href=\"https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/37630607/women-attendances-dominated-european-football-2022\">The three most attended soccer games in Europe last year were all women’s matches\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s clear there is money to be made — and that’s what’s changing. Investors now see there’s a market, an audience, an entire base of women’s sports fans who are not being served. And with the potential for profit, comes funding, which brings broadcast TV deals. And since you can’t be a fan of what you can’t see, that brings more viewers and more fans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Now I think that people are starting to understand that the momentum is there, the data is there. Everything is signaling that this is the right time,” Wagner said. “It might have been the right time before, but now it’s \u003cem>really\u003c/em> the right time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11956860\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11956860\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg\" alt=\"A row of people smile at the camera, they are all wearing items of clothing with the logo for a women's soccer team called "Bay FC."\" width=\"800\" height=\"532\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-800x532.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1020x678.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-160x106.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/07/RS66033_06032023_bayfc-405-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sheryl Sandberg, Danielle Slaton, Brandi Chastain, Leslie Osborne and Aly Wagner pose for a photo with other attendees at a kickoff event for Bay FC, the Bay Area’s first team in the National Women’s Soccer League, at the Presidio in San Francisco, on June 3, 2023. \u003ccite>(Kori Suzuki/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the Bay FC team launch event, fans were excited too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oh, I’m so excited,” said Deepa Patel. “I started watching the NWSL after the 2015 World Cup and since then I’ve just been waiting for a team.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Finally we have a women’s team in Northern California. We don’t have to fly to Portland, we don’t have to go to L.A., we don’t have to fly to San Diego. Finally we have something representing Northern California, and the Bay Area,” said Monica MacMillan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have always been women’s sports in the Bay Area. There are professional runners, cyclists, tennis players, swimmers, and ice-skaters. There are semi-pro teams here, too. But now it might really be time for a fully-fledged, fully-funded major pro team that lasts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s just one last obstacle.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are also efforts to bring a WNBA expansion team here, though the commissioner has said “\u003ca href=\"https://justwomenssports.com/reads/wnba-expansion-teams-timeline-cathy-engelbert-commissioner/\">not yet\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At issue is another factor that answers Afifa Tawil’s original question. It can be tough to start teams in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s often easier to start out and build in smaller markets, especially during the survival mode women’s sports have historically existed in. In small markets, you can sometimes build women’s teams as a kind of homegrown oddity attraction. The Bay Area, by contrast, is a little hard for people to get their heads around, a little hard to conquer for any one new team.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think the Bay Area is perhaps daunting to a lot of people because we have so much going on there,” said Wagner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s so spread out, so diverse, there’s so many other things to do besides sit inside and watch sports on TV. We’re not always considered a great sports market. But Brandi Chastain disagrees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area is the best sports town and we’re going to prove it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay FC starts play in the spring and after that, who knows. Maybe a WNBA team in Oakland. Or dream big: A softball team in Hayward; a women’s hockey team in San José. Momentum is building. As the women’s soccer fans like to say: LFG.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11956649/why-doesnt-the-bay-area-have-a-pro-womens-sports-team","authors":["1459"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520","news_10"],"tags":["news_32793","news_18426","news_27626","news_17996","news_111","news_6215","news_28623"],"featImg":"news_11956659","label":"news_33523"},"news_11450483":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11450483","meta":{"index":"posts_1591205157","site":"news","id":"11450483","score":null,"sort":[1686319227000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"cant-get-that-camping-spot-it-could-be-bots","title":"Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot?","publishDate":1686319227,"format":"audio","headTitle":"Why Can’t You Get That Camping Spot? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Update, June 9, 2023:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever tried to grab a spot at one of the state’s more popular campgrounds, you’ve probably experienced that frustrating moment: You log in at the exact minute reservations are opened and … everything’s already booked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s such a common experience that our original Bay Curious story from 2017 (below) about the possible use of bots to snag coveted campsites still attracts questions. So we went back to park officials to find out: Are bots still a problem in 2023?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Parks information officer Jorge Moreno says, not anymore. They were an issue back in 2017, after the state parks moved to a third-party online reservation system called \u003ca href=\"https://reservecalifornia.com/Web/\">Reserve California\u003c/a>. Campers complained about bots snapping up spots faster than a human could click a button. That’s why in 2019 Reserve America, the parent company, added a captcha and verification step to the process, said Moreno. In 2021, to be sure the new methods were effective, they did an analysis of the reservation IPs and time stamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was determined that automated bots were no longer an issue,” he said. Additionally, any account caught using bots or reselling reservations will be banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why are all the campsites already full the second they open up for reservations? “Demand is greater than inventory,” Moreno said. For some of the most popular spots — like the cabins at Steep Ravine in Mount Tamalpais State Park — there might be 100 people logging on for one of eight cabins. “It’s really like a lottery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Original story, May 11, 2017: \u003c/strong>Abigail Johnston and Steve Fotter have been taking the same vacation for decades. For a week, twice a year, they pack up their car with sleeping bags, books and bug spray and drive an hour to Steep Ravine at Mount Tamalpais State Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nestled along the coast of Marin County, down beneath the cliffs of the Pacific, they make their way to one of 10 primitive wooden cabins. There’s no electricity or running water, but luxury is not why people visit Steep Ravine. They go for the sweeping views of the ocean and a secluded beach a few steps away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450574\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450574\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg\" alt=\"Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public.\" width=\"800\" height=\"609\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-160x122.jpeg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-1020x776.jpeg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-960x731.jpeg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-240x183.jpeg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-375x285.jpeg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-520x396.jpeg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680.jpeg 1147w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Abigail Johnston)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For Abigail and Steve, this state park is heaven on earth — a sanctuary they’ve been visiting since the cabins opened to the public in 1984. But it’s gotten tough to get a spot. Almost impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the registration window opens at 8 a.m. most cabins are booked by 8:01 a.m. Abigail and Steve have been trying to book a cabin for a year now, with no success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are others beating them through the reservation system? Or are they falling short because they’re competing against something not quite human: bots?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450646\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 500px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450646 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg\" alt=\"The Steep Ravine cabins\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg 500w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-375x281.jpg 375w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 500px) 100vw, 500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Steep Ravine cabins \u003ccite>(Bill Bo Braasch/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Bots\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bots are software that can automatically perform routine tasks on the internet. You’ve probably used a bot online and not even realized it, like when you search the web or look for cheap flights on sites like Kayak or Expedia, instead of having to check each airline yourself,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots go and pull all that information into one helpful place. But bots can also be used nefariously, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2016/01/hacker-lexicon-what-are-dos-and-ddos-attacks/\">taking down a website\u003c/a> by overwhelming its servers and making it impossible for legitimate users to access the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was unable to confirm if bots are reserving campsites, but they are certainly active on ReserveAmerica’s website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450604\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 250px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450604\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg\" alt=\"A computer screen is filled with code.\" width=\"250\" height=\"191\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-800x613.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-1020x781.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-960x735.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-240x184.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-375x287.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-520x398.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A computer screen filled with code. \u003ccite>(Joe Raedle/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Scraping for availability\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Chris Streeter is a software engineer living in San Francisco. He wanted a campsite for Easter weekend at another popular park, \u003ca href=\"http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=540\">Big Basin Redwoods State Park\u003c/a>. The place was 100 percent booked, but he kept checking the ReserveAmerica website for cancellations — a common strategy for snagging a last-minute spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It involves going to reserveamerica.com, checking to see if there’s a site available. There’s not, so you have to keep coming back super often. I decided to automate the process,” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He built a bot that looks for cancellations on ReserveAmerica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every 15 minutes [the bot] just checks. And if there’s a site, it posts a little notification in my Mac that says, ‘Hey, there’s a site available,’” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This bot is not the only one of its kind. There’s a bot for Yosemite, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The code for the Yosemite bot is posted on GitHub, a code-sharing website. Anyone who finds the code and understands it can use it. It was written by Brian Hansen, another computer engineer based in San Francisco. Hansen is a rock climber and, like most climbers, he sees Yosemite as a mecca.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450576\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450576 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Yosemite National Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yosemite National Park \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Most climbers I know will set alarms early on May 15th,” wrote Hansen via email. “I personally prefer more spontaneous trips, and was told that my only recourse was to refresh the \u003ca href=\"http://recreation.gov\">recreation.gov\u003c/a> website repeatedly until a campsite opened up due to cancellation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Hansen’s GitHub stats, people have been copying the bot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it legal?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/3183/all-info\">Better Online Ticket Sales Act\u003c/a> (also called the BOTS Act) targets bots used for ticket scalping at events over a certain size, so the non-commercial personal-use bots built by Streeter and Hansen don’t qualify. Specialists in internet law say that these bots fall into a legal gray area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots do violate the website contractors’ \u003ca href=\"http://www.activenetwork.com/information/terms-of-use\">terms of use,\u003c/a> which prohibit the use of robots, bots and scraping. However, in similar cases the terms of use were not found to be legally binding unless agreement to the terms of use was\u003ca href=\"https://h2o.law.harvard.edu/cases/4518\"> prominently displayed\u003c/a> in a location where the users could not miss them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Jeffrey Rosenfeld of KR Internet Law, “If users click to check a box saying they’ve read and agree to the terms and conditions, that would be considered legally binding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if it is legally binding, most prosecutors will only go after people who are trying to make money or steal business from the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unless you’re going to try to commercialize the website’s content, most businesses and website operators won’t care what you do,” says Rosenfeld.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people do try to commercialize campsites, California State Parks has been quick to shut them down and threaten legal action under the \u003ca href=\"http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-537.html\">California Penal Code\u003c/a>. The last vendor the Parks shut down was called “Adventure Man.” Some vendors make big promises to get customers reservations at the most difficult campgrounds, but California State Parks representatives didn’t know if they used bots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450577\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450577 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Diamond Valley Lake, near Hemet, California. \" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Diamond Valley Lake near Hemet, California. \u003ccite>(David McNew/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Andrea Matwyshyn specializes in technology and innovation policy at Northeastern University. She says Streeter’s and Hansen’s bots could also fall under unauthorized access, but that “in the 9th Circuit, it’s unlikely that this case would be pursued by prosecutors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hansen has considered that his bot is in a legal gray area, but isn’t worried about prosecution because “it’s such a small project, but [the questionable legality] is why I haven’t made a real website out of this or pursued developing third-party reservation optimization much further,” Hansen wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it fair?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some might say that Streeter and Hansen are problem-solving in an innovative way. Their bots create more free time and could potentially be the start of businesses that create jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Others feel differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a fairness question. … It’s an act of creating technology haves and technology have nots,” Matwyshyn says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450578\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450578 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park.\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Image)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Streeter has thought about fairness. He says he could automate the whole process and have a bot that completes his booking for him. He says that program might exist, but he hasn’t built it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look at it as, I’m not doing anything a human couldn’t do. It’s the same thing as setting an alarm on your phone every 15 minutes,” Streeter says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If he made a faster or more advanced bot, no human could compete with it. And faster, more advanced bots have been built in similar contexts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, students at New York’s Baruch College created bots to get \u003ca href=\"http://college.usatoday.com/2013/02/07/opinion-smart-student-hackers-should-be-celebrated-not-punished/\">better registration times for classes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The student body was very divided over whether they thought the students were cheating or if they were simply using their skills in an innovative way,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bots have been used to gain advantage in the Bay Area restaurant scene, too. Tables at San Francisco restaurant State Bird Provisions have been \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/2013/7/25/6396753/techies-are-hacking-state-bird-reservations-updated\">a big target for bots\u003c/a>. One company, TableSweep, even scrapes OpenTable for cancellations at top restaurants and charges customers $5 for every successfully booked reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450651\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11450651\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg\" alt=\"Chef's counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013\" width=\"640\" height=\"427\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg 640w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chef’s counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013. \u003ccite>(City Foodsters/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Matwyshyn believes there needs to be space for innovation, but if not everyone has the same access to technology, it raises a lot of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a debate that we need to have as a society. And these questions of scraping data and aggregating and reusing [data] are our very entry point to those questions that are going to show up on steroids in the next 10 to 20 years,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we stop it?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The contractor running \u003ca href=\"https://www.reserveamerica.com/welcome.do\">reserveamerica.com\u003c/a> would not return emails or calls requesting comment. But because they work for California State Parks, they did respond to Brian Ketterer, its southern field division chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They said they have software that screens for bots. They were not aware of any infiltration into our reservation system,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A typical bot prevention measure might include adding a CAPTCHA (that’s the “Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart”), but programmers have gotten around it by hiring real people to fill them out. Artificial intelligence can also be trained to fill out a CAPTCHA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another preventative measure could be two-step authentication. That’s when a website texts you a number that you must type into the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The parks could also move away from online reservations and back to booking things over the phone. Award-winning Berkeley restaurant Chez Panisse said they’ve never noticed a bot problem and attribute it to the fact that most reservations are completed by phone. Paying for more man-hours could be costly, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450624\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Big Sur State Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Big Sur State Park \u003ccite>(Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This could also be tackled from the supply side. After all, these bots were a response to a scarce resource.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Increasing the supply\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“There are only 459 campsites in Yosemite Valley and over 4 million people visit the park each year,” says Yosemite ranger and representative Jamie Richards. “We are fully booked the entire summer and beyond.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The California State Parks system isn’t much better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The real story here is a lack of inventory,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almost 40 million people live in California and over 200 million visit the state as tourists each year. According to Ketterer, there are about 14,600 campsites and accommodations available by reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And if you look at those numbers, it’s not in your favor. It’s like playing the lottery” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has seen the number of reservations steadily increasing. In just the past year, reservations were up by 9 percent, says Ketterer, and parks can’t keep up with growing demand. They don’t have the budget to open and maintain new campsites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It should also be noted that not all campgrounds are equally popular. According to Ketterer, coastal campsites with accommodations are the most difficult to snag. Even without bots, there is fierce competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve heard from people who have businesses using the employees in the office to sit by their computers and sit by their phones and try to get that reservation,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even Ketterer has trouble getting a spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have yet to visit Crystal Cove State Park as a visitor and I would love to do that. I’ve also tried for Big Sur and I have yet to get into there. And I’ve tried for about five years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Have you heard of people using bots to get campsites? Have you heard of people using bots for other popular events or items? Send us an email at baycurious@kqed.org.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Correction: An earlier version of this story misstated when the reservation window opens for the Steep Ravine cabins. It’s on the first of each month.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Some people used to use bots to snag campsites at state and national parks. Is it still a problem?\r\n","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1700531540,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":63,"wordCount":2229},"headData":{"title":"Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot? | KQED","description":"Some people used to use bots to snag campsites at state and national parks. Is it still a problem?\r\n","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Why Can't You Get That Camping Spot?","datePublished":"2023-06-09T14:00:27.000Z","dateModified":"2023-11-21T01:52:20.000Z","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"Y","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/mp3splice/radio/bay-curious/2017/05/BCBotsPodcast.mp3","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11450483/cant-get-that-camping-spot-it-could-be-bots","audioDuration":663000,"audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Update, June 9, 2023:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever tried to grab a spot at one of the state’s more popular campgrounds, you’ve probably experienced that frustrating moment: You log in at the exact minute reservations are opened and … everything’s already booked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s such a common experience that our original Bay Curious story from 2017 (below) about the possible use of bots to snag coveted campsites still attracts questions. So we went back to park officials to find out: Are bots still a problem in 2023?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California State Parks information officer Jorge Moreno says, not anymore. They were an issue back in 2017, after the state parks moved to a third-party online reservation system called \u003ca href=\"https://reservecalifornia.com/Web/\">Reserve California\u003c/a>. Campers complained about bots snapping up spots faster than a human could click a button. That’s why in 2019 Reserve America, the parent company, added a captcha and verification step to the process, said Moreno. In 2021, to be sure the new methods were effective, they did an analysis of the reservation IPs and time stamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was determined that automated bots were no longer an issue,” he said. Additionally, any account caught using bots or reselling reservations will be banned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why are all the campsites already full the second they open up for reservations? “Demand is greater than inventory,” Moreno said. For some of the most popular spots — like the cabins at Steep Ravine in Mount Tamalpais State Park — there might be 100 people logging on for one of eight cabins. “It’s really like a lottery.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Original story, May 11, 2017: \u003c/strong>Abigail Johnston and Steve Fotter have been taking the same vacation for decades. For a week, twice a year, they pack up their car with sleeping bags, books and bug spray and drive an hour to Steep Ravine at Mount Tamalpais State Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nestled along the coast of Marin County, down beneath the cliffs of the Pacific, they make their way to one of 10 primitive wooden cabins. There’s no electricity or running water, but luxury is not why people visit Steep Ravine. They go for the sweeping views of the ocean and a secluded beach a few steps away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450574\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450574\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg\" alt=\"Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public.\" width=\"800\" height=\"609\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-800x609.jpeg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-160x122.jpeg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-1020x776.jpeg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-960x731.jpeg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-240x183.jpeg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-375x285.jpeg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680-520x396.jpeg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/IMG_0260.JPG-e1494450774680.jpeg 1147w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abigail Johnston inside the Steep Ravine cabins when they first opened to the public. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Abigail Johnston)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For Abigail and Steve, this state park is heaven on earth — a sanctuary they’ve been visiting since the cabins opened to the public in 1984. But it’s gotten tough to get a spot. Almost impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the registration window opens at 8 a.m. most cabins are booked by 8:01 a.m. Abigail and Steve have been trying to book a cabin for a year now, with no success.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are others beating them through the reservation system? Or are they falling short because they’re competing against something not quite human: bots?\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450646\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 500px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450646 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg\" alt=\"The Steep Ravine cabins\" width=\"500\" height=\"375\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z.jpg 500w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/380315703_a3c9f96a13_z-375x281.jpg 375w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 500px) 100vw, 500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Steep Ravine cabins \u003ccite>(Bill Bo Braasch/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Bots\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Bots are software that can automatically perform routine tasks on the internet. You’ve probably used a bot online and not even realized it, like when you search the web or look for cheap flights on sites like Kayak or Expedia, instead of having to check each airline yourself,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots go and pull all that information into one helpful place. But bots can also be used nefariously, such as \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2016/01/hacker-lexicon-what-are-dos-and-ddos-attacks/\">taking down a website\u003c/a> by overwhelming its servers and making it impossible for legitimate users to access the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I was unable to confirm if bots are reserving campsites, but they are certainly active on ReserveAmerica’s website.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450604\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 250px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450604\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg\" alt=\"A computer screen is filled with code.\" width=\"250\" height=\"191\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-160x123.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-800x613.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-1020x781.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-960x735.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-240x184.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-375x287.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1-520x398.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-466343185-1.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A computer screen filled with code. \u003ccite>(Joe Raedle/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Scraping for availability\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Chris Streeter is a software engineer living in San Francisco. He wanted a campsite for Easter weekend at another popular park, \u003ca href=\"http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=540\">Big Basin Redwoods State Park\u003c/a>. The place was 100 percent booked, but he kept checking the ReserveAmerica website for cancellations — a common strategy for snagging a last-minute spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It involves going to reserveamerica.com, checking to see if there’s a site available. There’s not, so you have to keep coming back super often. I decided to automate the process,” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He built a bot that looks for cancellations on ReserveAmerica.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Every 15 minutes [the bot] just checks. And if there’s a site, it posts a little notification in my Mac that says, ‘Hey, there’s a site available,’” says Streeter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This bot is not the only one of its kind. There’s a bot for Yosemite, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The code for the Yosemite bot is posted on GitHub, a code-sharing website. Anyone who finds the code and understands it can use it. It was written by Brian Hansen, another computer engineer based in San Francisco. Hansen is a rock climber and, like most climbers, he sees Yosemite as a mecca.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450576\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450576 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Yosemite National Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541104090.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yosemite National Park \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Most climbers I know will set alarms early on May 15th,” wrote Hansen via email. “I personally prefer more spontaneous trips, and was told that my only recourse was to refresh the \u003ca href=\"http://recreation.gov\">recreation.gov\u003c/a> website repeatedly until a campsite opened up due to cancellation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Hansen’s GitHub stats, people have been copying the bot.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it legal?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/3183/all-info\">Better Online Ticket Sales Act\u003c/a> (also called the BOTS Act) targets bots used for ticket scalping at events over a certain size, so the non-commercial personal-use bots built by Streeter and Hansen don’t qualify. Specialists in internet law say that these bots fall into a legal gray area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The bots do violate the website contractors’ \u003ca href=\"http://www.activenetwork.com/information/terms-of-use\">terms of use,\u003c/a> which prohibit the use of robots, bots and scraping. However, in similar cases the terms of use were not found to be legally binding unless agreement to the terms of use was\u003ca href=\"https://h2o.law.harvard.edu/cases/4518\"> prominently displayed\u003c/a> in a location where the users could not miss them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to Jeffrey Rosenfeld of KR Internet Law, “If users click to check a box saying they’ve read and agree to the terms and conditions, that would be considered legally binding.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even if it is legally binding, most prosecutors will only go after people who are trying to make money or steal business from the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Unless you’re going to try to commercialize the website’s content, most businesses and website operators won’t care what you do,” says Rosenfeld.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people do try to commercialize campsites, California State Parks has been quick to shut them down and threaten legal action under the \u003ca href=\"http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-537.html\">California Penal Code\u003c/a>. The last vendor the Parks shut down was called “Adventure Man.” Some vendors make big promises to get customers reservations at the most difficult campgrounds, but California State Parks representatives didn’t know if they used bots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450577\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450577 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"Diamond Valley Lake, near Hemet, California. \" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-654194708.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Diamond Valley Lake near Hemet, California. \u003ccite>(David McNew/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Andrea Matwyshyn specializes in technology and innovation policy at Northeastern University. She says Streeter’s and Hansen’s bots could also fall under unauthorized access, but that “in the 9th Circuit, it’s unlikely that this case would be pursued by prosecutors.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hansen has considered that his bot is in a legal gray area, but isn’t worried about prosecution because “it’s such a small project, but [the questionable legality] is why I haven’t made a real website out of this or pursued developing third-party reservation optimization much further,” Hansen wrote.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is it fair?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Some might say that Streeter and Hansen are problem-solving in an innovative way. Their bots create more free time and could potentially be the start of businesses that create jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Others feel differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a fairness question. … It’s an act of creating technology haves and technology have nots,” Matwyshyn says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450578\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"wp-image-11450578 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg\" alt=\"A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park.\" width=\"800\" height=\"534\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-800x534.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-960x640.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660-520x347.jpg 520w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/GettyImages-541356660.jpg 1024w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A park ranger directs hikers in Yosemite National Park. \u003ccite>(Brendan Smialowski/AFP/Getty Image)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Streeter has thought about fairness. He says he could automate the whole process and have a bot that completes his booking for him. He says that program might exist, but he hasn’t built it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look at it as, I’m not doing anything a human couldn’t do. It’s the same thing as setting an alarm on your phone every 15 minutes,” Streeter says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If he made a faster or more advanced bot, no human could compete with it. And faster, more advanced bots have been built in similar contexts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2013, students at New York’s Baruch College created bots to get \u003ca href=\"http://college.usatoday.com/2013/02/07/opinion-smart-student-hackers-should-be-celebrated-not-punished/\">better registration times for classes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The student body was very divided over whether they thought the students were cheating or if they were simply using their skills in an innovative way,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bots have been used to gain advantage in the Bay Area restaurant scene, too. Tables at San Francisco restaurant State Bird Provisions have been \u003ca href=\"https://sf.eater.com/2013/7/25/6396753/techies-are-hacking-state-bird-reservations-updated\">a big target for bots\u003c/a>. One company, TableSweep, even scrapes OpenTable for cancellations at top restaurants and charges customers $5 for every successfully booked reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450651\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 640px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11450651\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg\" alt=\"Chef's counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013\" width=\"640\" height=\"427\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z.jpg 640w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-160x107.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-240x160.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-375x250.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/9383057464_5c4394a3a0_z-520x347.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 640px) 100vw, 640px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Chef’s counter seating at State Bird Provisions on July 27, 2013. \u003ccite>(City Foodsters/flickr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Matwyshyn believes there needs to be space for innovation, but if not everyone has the same access to technology, it raises a lot of questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a debate that we need to have as a society. And these questions of scraping data and aggregating and reusing [data] are our very entry point to those questions that are going to show up on steroids in the next 10 to 20 years,” says Matwyshyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Can we stop it?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The contractor running \u003ca href=\"https://www.reserveamerica.com/welcome.do\">reserveamerica.com\u003c/a> would not return emails or calls requesting comment. But because they work for California State Parks, they did respond to Brian Ketterer, its southern field division chief.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They said they have software that screens for bots. They were not aware of any infiltration into our reservation system,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A typical bot prevention measure might include adding a CAPTCHA (that’s the “Completely Automated Public Turing test to tell Computers and Humans Apart”), but programmers have gotten around it by hiring real people to fill them out. Artificial intelligence can also be trained to fill out a CAPTCHA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another preventative measure could be two-step authentication. That’s when a website texts you a number that you must type into the site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The parks could also move away from online reservations and back to booking things over the phone. Award-winning Berkeley restaurant Chez Panisse said they’ve never noticed a bot problem and attribute it to the fact that most reservations are completed by phone. Paying for more man-hours could be costly, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11450624\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11450624\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"Big Sur State Park\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut.jpg 1920w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-1180x885.jpg 1180w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-960x720.jpg 960w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-240x180.jpg 240w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-375x281.jpg 375w, https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2017/05/RS19879_IMG_7064-qut-520x390.jpg 520w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Big Sur State Park \u003ccite>(Rachael Myrow/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This could also be tackled from the supply side. After all, these bots were a response to a scarce resource.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Increasing the supply\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“There are only 459 campsites in Yosemite Valley and over 4 million people visit the park each year,” says Yosemite ranger and representative Jamie Richards. “We are fully booked the entire summer and beyond.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The California State Parks system isn’t much better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The real story here is a lack of inventory,” says Ketterer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almost 40 million people live in California and over 200 million visit the state as tourists each year. According to Ketterer, there are about 14,600 campsites and accommodations available by reservation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And if you look at those numbers, it’s not in your favor. It’s like playing the lottery” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California has seen the number of reservations steadily increasing. In just the past year, reservations were up by 9 percent, says Ketterer, and parks can’t keep up with growing demand. They don’t have the budget to open and maintain new campsites.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It should also be noted that not all campgrounds are equally popular. According to Ketterer, coastal campsites with accommodations are the most difficult to snag. Even without bots, there is fierce competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’ve heard from people who have businesses using the employees in the office to sit by their computers and sit by their phones and try to get that reservation,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even Ketterer has trouble getting a spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I have yet to visit Crystal Cove State Park as a visitor and I would love to do that. I’ve also tried for Big Sur and I have yet to get into there. And I’ve tried for about five years.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Have you heard of people using bots to get campsites? Have you heard of people using bots for other popular events or items? Send us an email at baycurious@kqed.org.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Correction: An earlier version of this story misstated when the reservation window opens for the Steep Ravine cabins. It’s on the first of each month.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11450483/cant-get-that-camping-spot-it-could-be-bots","authors":["8606"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_18426"],"featImg":"news_11451514","label":"source_news_11450483"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.","airtime":"SUN 2pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Possible-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.possible.fm/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"Possible"},"link":"/radio/program/possible","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/possible/id1677184070","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/730YpdUSNlMyPQwNnyjp4k"}},"1a":{"id":"1a","title":"1A","info":"1A is home to the national conversation. 1A brings on great guests and frames the best debate in ways that make you think, share and engage.","airtime":"MON-THU 11pm-12am","imageSrc":"https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/1a.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://the1a.org/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/1a","subscribe":{"npr":"https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/RBrW","apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=1188724250&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/1A-p947376/","rss":"https://feeds.npr.org/510316/podcast.xml"}},"all-things-considered":{"id":"all-things-considered","title":"All Things Considered","info":"Every weekday, \u003cem>All Things Considered\u003c/em> hosts Robert Siegel, Audie Cornish, Ari Shapiro, and Kelly McEvers present the program's trademark mix of news, interviews, commentaries, reviews, and offbeat features. Michel Martin hosts on the weekends.","airtime":"MON-FRI 1pm-2pm, 4:30pm-6:30pm\u003cbr />SAT-SUN 5pm-6pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/All-Things-Considered-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.npr.org/programs/all-things-considered/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/all-things-considered"},"american-suburb-podcast":{"id":"american-suburb-podcast","title":"American Suburb: The Podcast","tagline":"The flip side of gentrification, told through one town","info":"Gentrification is changing cities across America, forcing people from neighborhoods they have long called home. Call them the displaced. Now those priced out of the Bay Area are looking for a better life in an unlikely place. American Suburb follows this migration to one California town along the Delta, 45 miles from San Francisco. But is this once sleepy suburb ready for them?","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/American-Suburb-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"/news/series/american-suburb-podcast","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"13"},"link":"/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/","subscribe":{"npr":"https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/RBrW","apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?mt=2&id=1287748328","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/American-Suburb-p1086805/","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/series/american-suburb-podcast/feed/podcast","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkMzMDExODgxNjA5"}},"baycurious":{"id":"baycurious","title":"Bay Curious","tagline":"Exploring the Bay Area, one question at a time","info":"KQED’s new podcast, Bay Curious, gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Bay-Curious-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"\"KQED Bay Curious","officialWebsiteLink":"/news/series/baycurious","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"4"},"link":"/podcasts/baycurious","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/category/bay-curious-podcast/feed/podcast","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvbmV3cy9jYXRlZ29yeS9iYXktY3VyaW91cy1wb2RjYXN0L2ZlZWQvcG9kY2FzdA","stitcher":"https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/bay-curious","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/6O76IdmhixfijmhTZLIJ8k"}},"bbc-world-service":{"id":"bbc-world-service","title":"BBC World Service","info":"The day's top stories from BBC News compiled twice daily in the week, once at weekends.","airtime":"MON-FRI 9pm-10pm, TUE-FRI 1am-2am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/BBC-World-Service-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_world_service","meta":{"site":"news","source":"BBC World Service"},"link":"/radio/program/bbc-world-service","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/global-news-podcast/id135067274?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/BBC-World-Service-p455581/","rss":"https://podcasts.files.bbci.co.uk/p02nq0gn.rss"}},"code-switch-life-kit":{"id":"code-switch-life-kit","title":"Code Switch / Life Kit","info":"\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. 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You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn","officialWebsiteLink":"/mindshift/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"2"},"link":"/podcasts/mindshift","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mindshift-podcast/id1078765985","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/464615685/mind-shift-podcast","stitcher":"https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/0MxSpNYZKNprFLCl7eEtyx"}},"morning-edition":{"id":"morning-edition","title":"Morning Edition","info":"\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.","airtime":"MON-FRI 3am-9am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"npr"},"link":"/radio/program/morning-edition"},"onourwatch":{"id":"onourwatch","title":"On Our Watch","tagline":"Police secrets, unsealed","info":"For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","imageAlt":"On Our Watch from NPR and KQED","officialWebsiteLink":"/podcasts/onourwatch","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kqed","order":"1"},"link":"/podcasts/onourwatch","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw","npr":"https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/onourwatch","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/0OLWoyizopu6tY1XiuX70x","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/On-Our-Watch-p1436229/","stitcher":"https://www.stitcher.com/show/on-our-watch","rss":"https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"}},"on-the-media":{"id":"on-the-media","title":"On The Media","info":"Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us","airtime":"SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am","imageSrc":"https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm","meta":{"site":"news","source":"wnyc"},"link":"/radio/program/on-the-media","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/","rss":"http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"}},"our-body-politic":{"id":"our-body-politic","title":"Our Body Politic","info":"Presented by KQED, KCRW and KPCC, and created and hosted by award-winning journalist Farai Chideya, Our Body Politic is unapologetically centered on reporting on not just how women of color experience the major political events of today, but how they’re impacting those very issues.","airtime":"SAT 6pm-7pm, SUN 1am-2am","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Our-Body-Politic-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://our-body-politic.simplecast.com/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"kcrw"},"link":"/radio/program/our-body-politic","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/our-body-politic/id1533069868","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9feGFQaHMxcw","spotify":"https://open.spotify.com/show/4ApAiLT1kV153TttWAmqmc","rss":"https://feeds.simplecast.com/_xaPhs1s","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Our-Body-Politic-p1369211/"}},"pbs-newshour":{"id":"pbs-newshour","title":"PBS NewsHour","info":"Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.","airtime":"MON-FRI 3pm-4pm","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/","meta":{"site":"news","source":"pbs"},"link":"/radio/program/pbs-newshour","subscribe":{"apple":"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2","tuneIn":"https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/","rss":"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"}},"perspectives":{"id":"perspectives","title":"Perspectives","tagline":"KQED's series of of daily listener commentaries since 1991","info":"KQED's series of of daily listener commentaries since 1991.","imageSrc":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Perspectives-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg","officialWebsiteLink":"/perspectives/","meta":{"site":"radio","source":"kqed","order":"15"},"link":"/perspectives","subscribe":{"apple":"https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/id73801135","npr":"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/432309616/perspectives","rss":"https://ww2.kqed.org/perspectives/category/perspectives/feed/","google":"https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93dzIua3FlZC5vcmcvcGVyc3BlY3RpdmVzL2NhdGVnb3J5L3BlcnNwZWN0aXZlcy9mZWVkLw"}},"planet-money":{"id":"planet-money","title":"Planet Money","info":"The economy explained. 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And we’ll do it with your help! You ask the questions. You decide what Bay Curious investigates. And you join us on the journey to find the answers.\r\n\u003cbr />\r\n\u003cspan class=\"alignleft\">\u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1172473406\">\u003cimg width=\"75px\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/DownloadOniTunes_100x100.png\">\u003c/a> \u003ca href=\"https://goo.gl/app/playmusic?ibi=com.google.PlayMusic&isi=691797987&ius=googleplaymusic&link=https://play.google.com/music/m/Ipi2mc5aqfen4nr2daayiziiyuy?t%3DBay_Curious\">\u003cimg width=\"75px\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/Google_Play_100x100.png\">\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/div>\r\n\u003c/aside> \r\n\u003ch2>What's your question?\u003c/h2>\r\n\u003cdiv id=\"huxq6\" class=\"curiosity-module\" data-pym-src=\"//modules.wearehearken.com/kqed/curiosity_modules/133\">\u003c/div>\r\n\u003cscript src=\"//assets.wearehearken.com/production/thirdparty/p.m.js\">\u003c/script>\r\n\u003ch2>Bay Curious monthly newsletter\u003c/h2>\r\nWe're launching it soon! \u003ca href=\"https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdEtzbyNbSQkRHCCAkKhoGiAl3Bd0zWxhk0ZseJ1KH_o_ZDjQ/viewform\" target=\"_blank\">Sign up\u003c/a> so you don't miss it when it drops.\r\n","featImg":"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2016/11/BayCuriousLogoFinal01-e1493662037229.png","headData":{"title":"Bay Curious Archives | KQED News","description":"A podcast exploring the Bay Area one question at a time KQED’s Bay Curious gets to the bottom of the mysteries — both profound and peculiar — that give the Bay Area its unique identity. 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