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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven south from\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> on California Highway 1 towards Pacifica, you know that moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You round a curve, and there it is all of a sudden: the glorious Pacific Ocean. Five minutes ago, you could have been on any highway in America. But now, it’s clear. You’re in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re seeing the ocean to your right, and all these little hamlets located in these small, little valleys on your left,” said Henry Lie, who was born and raised in Pacifica. “And that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods [tucked] into smaller valleys.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon enough, you’ll see Pacifica State Beach stretching out before you. Locals call it Linda Mar beach, but back in the day, it was San Pedro Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s very picturesque, and it just so happens, at the very center is a Taco Bell,” Lie said. “But it’s not a standard Taco Bell. It’s different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079611\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079611\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People enter the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sitting in a prime location nearly touching the sand, this Taco Bell is a little more stately than the average fast-food restaurant. It’s got dark brown wood siding, a deck looking out over the Pacific Ocean and a lot of history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie has always wondered how this Taco Bell ended up with such an incredible spot on the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A restaurant on the beach\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The town we now know as Pacifica was incorporated in 1957, but back in the day, it used to be a collection of distinct coastal communities — places like Sharp Park, Rockaway Beach, and Vallemar. After World War II, the new city served as a bedroom community for San Francisco, home to families and a slower pace of life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local historian Deb Wong said that baby boomers in Pacifica were craving something more than what the sleepy town had to offer. So, in the 1960s, a real estate agent named Bud Wiechers offered up a possible solution: a beachside restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11983182 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Crowds-flee.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Linda Mar beach was a quiet, sandy strip. “Just a really nice beach with a few structures on it,” Wong said. To Pacifica locals, the Wander Inn was the mainstay — its motto says it all: “Wander Inn, Stagger Out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wiechers planned to turn a small lot he owned nearby on Linda Mar beach into an A&W franchise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not everyone was excited by the prospect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The A&W attracted a lot of attention,” Wong said. “And it gave people ideas about businesses that they could build on the beach.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made the Pacifica planning commission wary of the idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were uneasy about private property on the beach and too much building on the beach,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their reservations, the city did eventually grant Wiechers permission to build his restaurant, on the condition that he deed some land to the public to ensure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/744727110/?match=1&terms=A%26W\">opened\u003c/a> in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former A&W employee Nancy Cook Long said the building had a “rustic-looking kind of design.” The exterior was covered in wood siding. A local paper described the intention: “blend with its marine location.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the restaurant, though, \u003cem>different\u003c/em> aesthetic choices had been made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was totally 70s; it was orange and brown,” Pacifica local Kelly Rose said. As a teen, Rose worked at the A&W.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had a brown shag carpet, dark wood paneling; it had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood, and they had a very thick layer of varithane on them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1913px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1913\" height=\"1275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg 1913w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1913px) 100vw, 1913px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers walk out of Taco Bell Cantina with their orders in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rose remembered a long counter — typical of a fast food restaurant — and then two sets of doors. One leads to the parking lot, the other to the beach. The back patio was built on stilts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it,” Cook Long said. ”And that was absolutely unbelievable to a lot of us, like, are you kidding?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even back then — before Taco Bell and internet fame — the restaurant managed to achieve its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the A&W wouldn’t last forever. In 1985, it closed its doors. The reasons for the closure, as reported in a local newspaper at the time, included the owner-operator’s scheduling constraints and plans for the opening of Wendy’s restaurant nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s next for the primo locale?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, locals had lined up at the beachside A&W — but a new chapter was about to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The owner of the San Pedro Beach land on which the A&W Restaurant has stood for many years has bought out the lease and is completing negotiations with another firm which contemplates replacing it with a Taco Bell restaurant,” the \u003cem>Pacifica Tribune\u003c/em> said on July 31, 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12079104 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_019_qed.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That year, the restaurant transitioned to a Taco Bell. For locals who grew up with the A&W, the change was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was really sad about it,” Long said. “Because A&W [was] unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was an institution for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the past 40 years, the Taco Bell here has thrived. Dubbed by news outlets and influencers alike as “‘the world’s most beautiful Taco Bell,”’ it has attracted visitors from around the globe. Taco Bell even lists it on their \u003ca href=\"https://www.tacobell.com/stories/Coolesttacobells\">website\u003c/a> as the number one most beautiful Taco Bell you never knew existed. American surfer Kai Lenny said that every time he surfs at nearby Mavericks, he stops by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hl2M9BpEdg\">Taco Bell for a burrito.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then, in 2019, the Taco Bell became a Cantina, an establishment that can legally sell alcohol. The change has only helped make it more popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie, our question-asker, said it’s one of his go-to spots when friends visit the Bay Area. “I feel like it’s a Bay Area landmark that really only locals know,” Lie said. “It is fun because it’s an interesting quirk of our hometown, and it’s something that makes Pacifica unique.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, it’s the location that does the heavy lifting. You can get a spicy potato soft taco anywhere — but how often can you eat it while watching surfers take on the rolling waves of the Pacific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not very often. The reason? California’s Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Coastal Act and the Taco Bell\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Charles Lester is a coastal policy expert. And when he looks at the Taco Bell, he sees evidence of a very different time in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I see it, I go, oh, that must be from the ‘60s or the ‘70s, without knowing for sure,” Lester said. “It looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coasts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Informational signs at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Around the same time Pacifica locals were raising their concerns about private businesses on public beaches, similar battles were playing out up and down California’s coast. Reactions to the Sea Ranch development and a proposed nuclear plant at Bodega Head, both in Sonoma County, are just two examples.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Places like Malibu were already starting to see this cheek-to-jowl residential development along the beach,” Lester said. “People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway 1 the way they used to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Citizens took their concerns to local and state officials, but Sacramento was slow to respond. The growing unease spurred a grassroots movement that would come to impact California forever. In 1972 — the same year the A&W opened its doors — California voters passed Proposition 20. It established the California Coastal Commission, a body whose mandate is to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The A&W — and by extension the Taco Bell — snuck in before regulations went into effect.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A future hanging in balance\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Lester, the bigger question now is of the building’s future. When I met up with him at his home, he’d come prepared. His 40-inch television screen turned monitor showed an aerial view of Linda Mar beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to look at this 2023 photo because it shows you where the wave run-up was at the time,” Lester points to a line in the sand. “You can see that at some point, right before this photo was taken, the waves were coming up right to the toe of that structure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Families and individuals enjoy a day at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With just two meters of sea level rise, he said, the ocean could push right up against the restaurant regularly. Throw in a storm, and the waves could inundate it. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear — some extreme estimates say in\u003ca href=\"https://scripps.ucsd.edu/research/climate-change-resources/faq-sea-level-rise-and-california\"> 75 years, \u003c/a>but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In my mind, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically,” Lester said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Taco Bell might qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act, Lester said, potentially entitling it to some form of protection. If he could, though, he’d pick it up and move it inland. This form of managed retreat, he said, is our best option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are thinking, given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned, in a lot of places,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, the Pacifica Taco Bell exists as an anomaly. It was built before modern rules, giving it a prime spot on the sand and very little competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whatever you put there is going to be popular,” Wong said. “But the thing is, you can’t put anything else there, and Taco Bell isn’t giving it up, and they are famous now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>We are on Highway One, officially coming off 280 onto Highway One. And oh my gosh, there she is, the mighty Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape: \u003c/strong>And you’re seeing, like the ocean to your right, and all these little like hamlets on your left and and that whole that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods nooked into smaller valleys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck and I are following directions from question asker Henry Lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>We pass neighborhoods like Sharp Park and Rockaway Beach on our way to an iconic Pacifica landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape:\u003c/strong> I love this drive in…. I mean, right now, it’s like, sun soaked, which is actually rare. Usually, I feel like, as you come to Pacifica, you’re like stepping into the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> And so you get further south, and you come across this crest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>Wow! Okay, so we’re passing over where the pier juts out into the ocean, seeing some jagged rocks on the horizon as we make our way toward the beach. Which beach are we going to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> I think it’s technically called Pacifica State Beach, but everyone calls it Linda Mar. And then you notice this one big brown building…and all of a sudden you see that it’s a Taco Bell, on the beach!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This Taco Bell is legendary. Tiktokers can’t resist it, and Bay Area locals are no different. It’s a fast food restaurant like any other… but the views! The weathered wood exterior has an organic feel, blending in with the natural beauty around it. There’s a palm tree right next to the parking lot and the back porch of the restaurant is built on stilts right on the sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio: \u003c/strong>Henry wanted to know more about this Taco Bell. How did it end up on the beach like this? And what’s gonna happen to it in the future? It’s a story that goes beyond Pacifica and asks who are California beaches for? Who gets to use them and how.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though the Taco Bell parking lot is packed today, back in the 1960s and 70s Pacifica was pretty quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>I’d say it was mostly middle-class families who were just starting out post war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Nancy Cook Long grew up here back when it was not a place on most people’s radar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Everybody knew everybody. You played outside, kick the can and freeze tag, and you rode cardboard boxes down the sides of hills. …it was just a little hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beach at Linda Mar, known back in the day as San Pedro beach – was pretty bare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Certainly in high school, people would go hang out at the beach. But before that, it was just, I’m going to say, almost something we took for granted and I don’t think it had anywhere near the popularity for surfing that it does now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There were a few small buildings, but all in all, mostly a stretch of sand. Until that is, a man by the name of “Bud” Wikers got an idea to turn a small oceanside lot he owned into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>He knew that with the baby boomers out there who were demanding something more than what we had in Pacifica at the time, he thought it would be a great idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As local historian Deb Wong tells it, Bud got in touch with A&W, the root beer company, to set up a franchise. Back in the day their restaurants were really popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A&W Advertising Song\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But not everyone in Pacifica was totally into the idea of a restaurant on the beach. Weicher’s plan to build so close to the water sparked a big debate in the community. Who are the beaches for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The restaurant was like an open invitation for others who wish to park their businesses on the beach. So you know, let one build there, and others will follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica planning commission wasn’t that jazzed about people building commercial structures on the beach at all, Deb says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The A&W on the beach was the main example of what could happen if beach property were privately owned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Despite concerns, the commission approved the plan, but required Weichers to deed some strips of land near the building to the public to ensure access and public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment opened in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The outside may have been meant to blend in with the dunes, but the inside made no such concessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>It was totally 70s. It was orange and brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Pacifica local Kelly Rose worked at the restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I can remember it so well. The image of it is burned into my memory banks. It had a shag a brown shag carpet., dark wood paneling. It had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood and they had a very thick layer of varathane on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Kelly remembers a long counter and two sets of glass doors. One led to the parking lot, the other, to the beach. She says the counter was staffed mostly by high school girls, also donning the orange and brown. Slip over aprons paired with triangular head scarves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>When the weather was nice, which wasn’t often, there would be times when every cashier would be working, taking orders. So I imagine it was probably grossing a lot for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beachside location was a big draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it. And I worked there one night and you could see it come out onto the parking lot, out in front. It was crazy. We just couldn’t believe it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even in those pre-internet days, the A&W achieved its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But the A&W didn’t last forever…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover: \u003c/strong>Pacifica Tribune, July 1985 – Beachfront A&W to be replaced by a Taco Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>Well, you know what it is, location, location, location, and that’s it. Whatever you put there is going to be popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For locals like Nancy who grew up with the burger joint, the shift to a Taco Bell was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long:\u003c/strong> I was really sad about it, because A&W is unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was there for a long time. It was an institution for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In 2019, the Taco Bell became a “cantina” and now serves alcohol. When Olivia and I visit, we put that part of the menu to the test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>OK, so we went with the frozen margarita with premium tequila, because that’s how we roll on Bay Curious. We have two potato …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>spicy potato soft tacos…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even on a weekday afternoon, the Taco Bell is packed. There are people waiting to place their orders on the self-service tablets, kids munching tacos and groups hanging out on the back deck enjoying 32 ounce slushy margaritas out of novelty cups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> A yard, 32 ounces? Oh my god, no. Thank you. Regular! (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn why you don’t see many other restaurants on beaches in California. And what sea level rise could mean for this beachside spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, and while we’re on break, maybe take a moment to donate to KQED? It takes just a few minutes and helps keep shows ours running. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about *THAT* Taco Bell in Pacifica – a cantina that’s literally right on the beach. Some people love it, but others have fought hard to prevent places like it from popping up along the California coast. Reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Around the same time Pacificans were raising concerns about the A&W, similar battles were playing out up and down the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway One, the way they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Charles Lester. He worked for the State of California and the California Coastal Commission for twenty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>And places like Malibu were already starting to see kind of this cheek to jowl residential development along the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Efforts to rein in coastal developments were slow going. But out of these local fights, a broader grassroots response was taking shape: the “save our coast” movement. Californians put an initiative on the ballot, and it passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip: \u003c/strong>The passage of Proposition 20 on November the 8th has signaled the beginning of the most ambitious and comprehensive effort ever mounted in this nation and perhaps the world. For the purpose of developing a process for managing coastal zone resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>The reason why we have an initiative is because there was failed efforts in the legislature to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Proposition 20 established the California Coastal Commission to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline. California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip:\u003c/strong> It has taken many hard lessons for us here in California to begin to understand the need for land and marine resource conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Approved by voters in 1972, the proposition didn’t go into effect until 1973. That’s a year after the A&W opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>When I see it I go, oh, that must be from the 60s or the 70s, it looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That old A&W made it onto the beach in the nick of time. The building that would later become the Taco Bell, was grandfathered in. And thanks to prop 20, competition in the beachside fast food scene is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Charles, the bigger question now is of the building’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>It’s a challenging location when you’re that close to the surf zone and you get big storms, the waves are going to come up, and eventually, with sea level rise, you’re going to have some serious issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With just two meters of sea level rise, he says, the ocean would push right up against the restaurant. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear—but some estimates put that at 75 years from now, but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>In my mind, yeah, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time, you know, responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Charles says the Taco Bell would likely qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act. That could make it eligible for a protective structure. Think sea wall or some other form of shoreline protection. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester:\u003c/strong> …. a lot of people are thinking given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned in a lot of places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of inside the Taco Bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price and Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>Mmm. It’s like a lighter churro. It tastes like Cinnamon Toast Crunch.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nGabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Back at the Taco Bell, on this gloriously sunny day, it’s hard to imagine this place not being here. For now though, for as long as it lasts, it’s safe to say it will remain iconic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katie Sprenger, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The Pacifica Taco Bell, just outside of San Francisco, is legendary for its beachfront views and retro architecture. How did a fast food chain end up with such prime real estate? ",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven south from\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> on California Highway 1 towards Pacifica, you know that moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You round a curve, and there it is all of a sudden: the glorious Pacific Ocean. Five minutes ago, you could have been on any highway in America. But now, it’s clear. You’re in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re seeing the ocean to your right, and all these little hamlets located in these small, little valleys on your left,” said Henry Lie, who was born and raised in Pacifica. “And that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods [tucked] into smaller valleys.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon enough, you’ll see Pacifica State Beach stretching out before you. Locals call it Linda Mar beach, but back in the day, it was San Pedro Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s very picturesque, and it just so happens, at the very center is a Taco Bell,” Lie said. “But it’s not a standard Taco Bell. It’s different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079611\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079611\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People enter the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sitting in a prime location nearly touching the sand, this Taco Bell is a little more stately than the average fast-food restaurant. It’s got dark brown wood siding, a deck looking out over the Pacific Ocean and a lot of history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie has always wondered how this Taco Bell ended up with such an incredible spot on the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A restaurant on the beach\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The town we now know as Pacifica was incorporated in 1957, but back in the day, it used to be a collection of distinct coastal communities — places like Sharp Park, Rockaway Beach, and Vallemar. After World War II, the new city served as a bedroom community for San Francisco, home to families and a slower pace of life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local historian Deb Wong said that baby boomers in Pacifica were craving something more than what the sleepy town had to offer. So, in the 1960s, a real estate agent named Bud Wiechers offered up a possible solution: a beachside restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Linda Mar beach was a quiet, sandy strip. “Just a really nice beach with a few structures on it,” Wong said. To Pacifica locals, the Wander Inn was the mainstay — its motto says it all: “Wander Inn, Stagger Out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wiechers planned to turn a small lot he owned nearby on Linda Mar beach into an A&W franchise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not everyone was excited by the prospect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The A&W attracted a lot of attention,” Wong said. “And it gave people ideas about businesses that they could build on the beach.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made the Pacifica planning commission wary of the idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were uneasy about private property on the beach and too much building on the beach,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their reservations, the city did eventually grant Wiechers permission to build his restaurant, on the condition that he deed some land to the public to ensure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/744727110/?match=1&terms=A%26W\">opened\u003c/a> in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former A&W employee Nancy Cook Long said the building had a “rustic-looking kind of design.” The exterior was covered in wood siding. A local paper described the intention: “blend with its marine location.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the restaurant, though, \u003cem>different\u003c/em> aesthetic choices had been made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was totally 70s; it was orange and brown,” Pacifica local Kelly Rose said. As a teen, Rose worked at the A&W.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had a brown shag carpet, dark wood paneling; it had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood, and they had a very thick layer of varithane on them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1913px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1913\" height=\"1275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg 1913w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1913px) 100vw, 1913px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers walk out of Taco Bell Cantina with their orders in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rose remembered a long counter — typical of a fast food restaurant — and then two sets of doors. One leads to the parking lot, the other to the beach. The back patio was built on stilts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it,” Cook Long said. ”And that was absolutely unbelievable to a lot of us, like, are you kidding?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even back then — before Taco Bell and internet fame — the restaurant managed to achieve its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the A&W wouldn’t last forever. In 1985, it closed its doors. The reasons for the closure, as reported in a local newspaper at the time, included the owner-operator’s scheduling constraints and plans for the opening of Wendy’s restaurant nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s next for the primo locale?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, locals had lined up at the beachside A&W — but a new chapter was about to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The owner of the San Pedro Beach land on which the A&W Restaurant has stood for many years has bought out the lease and is completing negotiations with another firm which contemplates replacing it with a Taco Bell restaurant,” the \u003cem>Pacifica Tribune\u003c/em> said on July 31, 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That year, the restaurant transitioned to a Taco Bell. For locals who grew up with the A&W, the change was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was really sad about it,” Long said. “Because A&W [was] unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was an institution for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the past 40 years, the Taco Bell here has thrived. Dubbed by news outlets and influencers alike as “‘the world’s most beautiful Taco Bell,”’ it has attracted visitors from around the globe. Taco Bell even lists it on their \u003ca href=\"https://www.tacobell.com/stories/Coolesttacobells\">website\u003c/a> as the number one most beautiful Taco Bell you never knew existed. American surfer Kai Lenny said that every time he surfs at nearby Mavericks, he stops by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hl2M9BpEdg\">Taco Bell for a burrito.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then, in 2019, the Taco Bell became a Cantina, an establishment that can legally sell alcohol. The change has only helped make it more popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie, our question-asker, said it’s one of his go-to spots when friends visit the Bay Area. “I feel like it’s a Bay Area landmark that really only locals know,” Lie said. “It is fun because it’s an interesting quirk of our hometown, and it’s something that makes Pacifica unique.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, it’s the location that does the heavy lifting. You can get a spicy potato soft taco anywhere — but how often can you eat it while watching surfers take on the rolling waves of the Pacific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not very often. The reason? California’s Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Coastal Act and the Taco Bell\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Charles Lester is a coastal policy expert. And when he looks at the Taco Bell, he sees evidence of a very different time in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I see it, I go, oh, that must be from the ‘60s or the ‘70s, without knowing for sure,” Lester said. “It looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coasts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Informational signs at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Around the same time Pacifica locals were raising their concerns about private businesses on public beaches, similar battles were playing out up and down California’s coast. Reactions to the Sea Ranch development and a proposed nuclear plant at Bodega Head, both in Sonoma County, are just two examples.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Places like Malibu were already starting to see this cheek-to-jowl residential development along the beach,” Lester said. “People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway 1 the way they used to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Citizens took their concerns to local and state officials, but Sacramento was slow to respond. The growing unease spurred a grassroots movement that would come to impact California forever. In 1972 — the same year the A&W opened its doors — California voters passed Proposition 20. It established the California Coastal Commission, a body whose mandate is to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The A&W — and by extension the Taco Bell — snuck in before regulations went into effect.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A future hanging in balance\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Lester, the bigger question now is of the building’s future. When I met up with him at his home, he’d come prepared. His 40-inch television screen turned monitor showed an aerial view of Linda Mar beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to look at this 2023 photo because it shows you where the wave run-up was at the time,” Lester points to a line in the sand. “You can see that at some point, right before this photo was taken, the waves were coming up right to the toe of that structure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Families and individuals enjoy a day at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With just two meters of sea level rise, he said, the ocean could push right up against the restaurant regularly. Throw in a storm, and the waves could inundate it. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear — some extreme estimates say in\u003ca href=\"https://scripps.ucsd.edu/research/climate-change-resources/faq-sea-level-rise-and-california\"> 75 years, \u003c/a>but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In my mind, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically,” Lester said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Taco Bell might qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act, Lester said, potentially entitling it to some form of protection. If he could, though, he’d pick it up and move it inland. This form of managed retreat, he said, is our best option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are thinking, given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned, in a lot of places,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, the Pacifica Taco Bell exists as an anomaly. It was built before modern rules, giving it a prime spot on the sand and very little competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whatever you put there is going to be popular,” Wong said. “But the thing is, you can’t put anything else there, and Taco Bell isn’t giving it up, and they are famous now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>We are on Highway One, officially coming off 280 onto Highway One. And oh my gosh, there she is, the mighty Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape: \u003c/strong>And you’re seeing, like the ocean to your right, and all these little like hamlets on your left and and that whole that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods nooked into smaller valleys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck and I are following directions from question asker Henry Lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>We pass neighborhoods like Sharp Park and Rockaway Beach on our way to an iconic Pacifica landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape:\u003c/strong> I love this drive in…. I mean, right now, it’s like, sun soaked, which is actually rare. Usually, I feel like, as you come to Pacifica, you’re like stepping into the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> And so you get further south, and you come across this crest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>Wow! Okay, so we’re passing over where the pier juts out into the ocean, seeing some jagged rocks on the horizon as we make our way toward the beach. Which beach are we going to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> I think it’s technically called Pacifica State Beach, but everyone calls it Linda Mar. And then you notice this one big brown building…and all of a sudden you see that it’s a Taco Bell, on the beach!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This Taco Bell is legendary. Tiktokers can’t resist it, and Bay Area locals are no different. It’s a fast food restaurant like any other… but the views! The weathered wood exterior has an organic feel, blending in with the natural beauty around it. There’s a palm tree right next to the parking lot and the back porch of the restaurant is built on stilts right on the sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio: \u003c/strong>Henry wanted to know more about this Taco Bell. How did it end up on the beach like this? And what’s gonna happen to it in the future? It’s a story that goes beyond Pacifica and asks who are California beaches for? Who gets to use them and how.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though the Taco Bell parking lot is packed today, back in the 1960s and 70s Pacifica was pretty quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>I’d say it was mostly middle-class families who were just starting out post war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Nancy Cook Long grew up here back when it was not a place on most people’s radar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Everybody knew everybody. You played outside, kick the can and freeze tag, and you rode cardboard boxes down the sides of hills. …it was just a little hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beach at Linda Mar, known back in the day as San Pedro beach – was pretty bare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Certainly in high school, people would go hang out at the beach. But before that, it was just, I’m going to say, almost something we took for granted and I don’t think it had anywhere near the popularity for surfing that it does now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There were a few small buildings, but all in all, mostly a stretch of sand. Until that is, a man by the name of “Bud” Wikers got an idea to turn a small oceanside lot he owned into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>He knew that with the baby boomers out there who were demanding something more than what we had in Pacifica at the time, he thought it would be a great idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As local historian Deb Wong tells it, Bud got in touch with A&W, the root beer company, to set up a franchise. Back in the day their restaurants were really popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A&W Advertising Song\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But not everyone in Pacifica was totally into the idea of a restaurant on the beach. Weicher’s plan to build so close to the water sparked a big debate in the community. Who are the beaches for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The restaurant was like an open invitation for others who wish to park their businesses on the beach. So you know, let one build there, and others will follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica planning commission wasn’t that jazzed about people building commercial structures on the beach at all, Deb says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The A&W on the beach was the main example of what could happen if beach property were privately owned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Despite concerns, the commission approved the plan, but required Weichers to deed some strips of land near the building to the public to ensure access and public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment opened in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The outside may have been meant to blend in with the dunes, but the inside made no such concessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>It was totally 70s. It was orange and brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Pacifica local Kelly Rose worked at the restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I can remember it so well. The image of it is burned into my memory banks. It had a shag a brown shag carpet., dark wood paneling. It had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood and they had a very thick layer of varathane on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Kelly remembers a long counter and two sets of glass doors. One led to the parking lot, the other, to the beach. She says the counter was staffed mostly by high school girls, also donning the orange and brown. Slip over aprons paired with triangular head scarves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>When the weather was nice, which wasn’t often, there would be times when every cashier would be working, taking orders. So I imagine it was probably grossing a lot for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beachside location was a big draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it. And I worked there one night and you could see it come out onto the parking lot, out in front. It was crazy. We just couldn’t believe it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even in those pre-internet days, the A&W achieved its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But the A&W didn’t last forever…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover: \u003c/strong>Pacifica Tribune, July 1985 – Beachfront A&W to be replaced by a Taco Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>Well, you know what it is, location, location, location, and that’s it. Whatever you put there is going to be popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For locals like Nancy who grew up with the burger joint, the shift to a Taco Bell was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long:\u003c/strong> I was really sad about it, because A&W is unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was there for a long time. It was an institution for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In 2019, the Taco Bell became a “cantina” and now serves alcohol. When Olivia and I visit, we put that part of the menu to the test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>OK, so we went with the frozen margarita with premium tequila, because that’s how we roll on Bay Curious. We have two potato …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>spicy potato soft tacos…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even on a weekday afternoon, the Taco Bell is packed. There are people waiting to place their orders on the self-service tablets, kids munching tacos and groups hanging out on the back deck enjoying 32 ounce slushy margaritas out of novelty cups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> A yard, 32 ounces? Oh my god, no. Thank you. Regular! (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn why you don’t see many other restaurants on beaches in California. And what sea level rise could mean for this beachside spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, and while we’re on break, maybe take a moment to donate to KQED? It takes just a few minutes and helps keep shows ours running. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about *THAT* Taco Bell in Pacifica – a cantina that’s literally right on the beach. Some people love it, but others have fought hard to prevent places like it from popping up along the California coast. Reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Around the same time Pacificans were raising concerns about the A&W, similar battles were playing out up and down the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway One, the way they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Charles Lester. He worked for the State of California and the California Coastal Commission for twenty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>And places like Malibu were already starting to see kind of this cheek to jowl residential development along the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Efforts to rein in coastal developments were slow going. But out of these local fights, a broader grassroots response was taking shape: the “save our coast” movement. Californians put an initiative on the ballot, and it passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip: \u003c/strong>The passage of Proposition 20 on November the 8th has signaled the beginning of the most ambitious and comprehensive effort ever mounted in this nation and perhaps the world. For the purpose of developing a process for managing coastal zone resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>The reason why we have an initiative is because there was failed efforts in the legislature to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Proposition 20 established the California Coastal Commission to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline. California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip:\u003c/strong> It has taken many hard lessons for us here in California to begin to understand the need for land and marine resource conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Approved by voters in 1972, the proposition didn’t go into effect until 1973. That’s a year after the A&W opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>When I see it I go, oh, that must be from the 60s or the 70s, it looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That old A&W made it onto the beach in the nick of time. The building that would later become the Taco Bell, was grandfathered in. And thanks to prop 20, competition in the beachside fast food scene is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Charles, the bigger question now is of the building’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>It’s a challenging location when you’re that close to the surf zone and you get big storms, the waves are going to come up, and eventually, with sea level rise, you’re going to have some serious issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With just two meters of sea level rise, he says, the ocean would push right up against the restaurant. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear—but some estimates put that at 75 years from now, but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>In my mind, yeah, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time, you know, responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Charles says the Taco Bell would likely qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act. That could make it eligible for a protective structure. Think sea wall or some other form of shoreline protection. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester:\u003c/strong> …. a lot of people are thinking given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned in a lot of places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of inside the Taco Bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price and Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>Mmm. It’s like a lighter churro. It tastes like Cinnamon Toast Crunch.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nGabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Back at the Taco Bell, on this gloriously sunny day, it’s hard to imagine this place not being here. For now though, for as long as it lasts, it’s safe to say it will remain iconic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katie Sprenger, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "from-anza-to-yorba-the-messy-history-behind-the-richmond-and-sunsets-street-names",
"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names",
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"headTitle": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond’s and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "cambrian-park-plaza-a-beloved-san-jose-strip-mall-awaits-a-new-future",
"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future",
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"headTitle": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.[aside postID=news_12078615 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260320-KOGURACOMPANY00242_TV-KQED.jpg'] But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"headTitle": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "new-almaden-the-mercury-mine-that-built-a-boomtown-south-of-san-jose",
"title": "New Almaden: The Mercury Mine That Built a Boomtown South of San José",
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"headTitle": "New Almaden: The Mercury Mine That Built a Boomtown South of San José | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitors to the Almaden Quicksilver County Park may well wonder what the heck accounts for the name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who or what was Almaden? What is quicksilver? Why is there a 27-room Classical Revival mansion nestled in more than 4,000 acres in the hills south of San José? So many questions!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It beggars belief today, given how bucolic the park is, but New Almaden once hummed with a busy mining operation in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In its heyday, 1,800 miners and their families lived here, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, a post office, and more. Now there are just a few moldering cemeteries and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a \u003ca href=\"https://parks.santaclaracounty.gov/learn/visit-historic-sites/almaden-quicksilver-mining-museum\">museum\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How quicksilver is used to extract gold\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before we get to our audience questions sent in about Almaden Quicksilver Park, let’s get a handle on why this place was once so valuable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The South Bay is full of cinnabar, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10 million to 12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur, and mercury is the more proper name for the silver-colored quicksilver. To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062447\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062447\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exhibits at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum, south of San José, on Oct. 27, 2025, paint a picture of the dangerous but lucrative craft of mining quicksilver from cinnabar. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Mercury was super important during the Gold Rush, because in its liquid form, gold and silver miners used the quicksilver to extract precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The mercury kind of grabs on to any precious metal,” said Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation. “All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have a kinda of silver putty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miners call that an amalgam. You heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees Fahrenheit, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, leaving you with your precious metal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It usually looks like spun sugar,” Will said. “It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How a Mexican cavalry officer discovered the cinnabar deposit in 1845\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just a few years prior to the discovery of gold at Sutter’s Mill near Sacramento in 1848, California was a Mexican territory. The Mexican government sent a cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero to catalogue strategic assets, and as was the practice at that time, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Castillero was traveling in the South Bay when he noticed a fiery red-orange paint local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062440\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062440\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features different kinds of ore in a display on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the time, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. Spain controlled the supply, which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood he was looking at a potential fortune in the hills south of San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848 and sent demand for quicksilver soaring. Multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, the Supreme Court recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. During the Civil War, the federal government briefly attempted to seize the New Almaden mine because mercury was essential for extracting gold used to finance the Union war effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this is where we get to Bay Curious listener Kiera O’Hara’s question:\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?! \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the museum, parks program coordinator Will told of an aide to President Lincoln who thought, “There’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million (roughly $7 billion today), in gold mostly, that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062439\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062439\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features photos of village life for quicksilver miners and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This aide was thinking something along the lines of, “Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the Civil War?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, ‘Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me.’” Will said. The mine manager at the time, John Young, rallied the miners working for him by saying something akin to “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this,” Will said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young also fired off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former New Almaden manager who happened to be working inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young warned the well-placed friend that the federal government was about to set off a destructive chain reaction across the West, at a moment when the Union depended on the support of California’s gold miners. There were people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Will thinks it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Has the mercury in San José caused environmental problems?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin and an environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of the mercury dug up at New Almaden \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17411/mercury-in-the-bay-part-1\">made its way downstream\u003c/a>, into the San Francisco Bay. Mining continued into the 1970s, and in 2002, scientists identified this mine as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/tracking-a-toxic-trail-long-closed-mine-2709557.php\">single largest source\u003c/a> of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A statue of a miner is featured at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When we acquired the land in the mid-1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land,” Will said. “Under the furnace yards were pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/dtsc-oversees-environmental-cleanup-of-mercury-contaminated-park/\">cleanup effort\u003c/a> to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did get help from the state and federal agencies. Additional work and monitoring continue, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses and otherwise recreate.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Is it safe to eat fish from the San Francisco Bay?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As recently as 10 years ago, two years into the big effort to clean up the Bay, \u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/cpwQ5OFIZRQ?si=SP5B4deyax67I7iR&t=356\">KQED explored this question\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/cpwQ5OFIZRQ?si=SP5B4deyax67I7iR&t=356 \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish, especially large fish, can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand,” the story said. “At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud. It may take more than 100 years for the Bay to recover.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment recommended that children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like \u003ca href=\"https://oehha.ca.gov/sites/default/files/media/downloads/advisories/fishadvisorysfbayreport2023.pdf\">sharks and striped bass\u003c/a>. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Has Cornish culture survived in the region?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Our final listener question comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall, on the far southwest tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features a Cinnabar display south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Long filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 B.C.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A0U6kQNCN0\">Poldark,\u003c/a>” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s. But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed, and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is a saying, ‘If you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman,’” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish pasty, which became, in Spanish, the paste. Over in \u003ca href=\"https://califcornishcousins.org/\">Grass Valley\u003c/a>, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.[aside postID=news_12076973 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-07-KQED.jpg']“I just did a very cursory search of your phone book in San José, and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames,” Long said. Also on his trip to San José not too long ago, he spotted the \u003ca href=\"https://www.vta.org/go/stations/ohlone-chynoweth\">Ohlone-Chynoweth\u003c/a> station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Chynoweth in Cornish means ‘new house.’ So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A 1960 documentary collaboration entitled \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/casjhsj_000081\">Quicksilver!\u003c/a> noted that, even then, in the mid-20th century, the mine was fading into the mists of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, which have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Long has an idea related to his membership in a Cornish chorus. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/track/60i1cJcq1fCNgolbUc67Xn\">The Miners’ Anthem\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe to link up with a museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This story starts with three things that don’t seem like they belong together: Cornish miners, mercury poisoning, and Abraham Lincoln. They are, however, all connected to a mine in the foothills south of San José. We’re talking about the Almaden Quicksilver mine. Its glory days are long gone, and so Bay Curious gets a lot of questions about it. KQED’s Rachael Myrow knows all sorts of things South Bay, so we called her up to answer some of your questions. Hey, Rachael!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Hey, Olivia!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So the Almaden Quicksilver mine sits in what is today Almaden Quicksilver County Park. I visited some years ago, and I remember a sprawling park with rolling hills. I think I went in the summertime, so it was very, very, very hot and quite dry. But I can’t say I remember the mine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> That could be because there’s not a lot of the mining apparatus left. But in its heyday, in the 19th century, 1,800 miners and their families populated these hills, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, and much, much more. Now there’s just a few moldering cemeteries …and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a museum, with really restricted hours. I’m going to guess it was closed when you hiked or drove past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmmm, yeah. Must have been. Now, over the years on Bay Curious, we have done quite a few stories that touch on the California Gold Rush, less about the Silver Rushes that followed, but really nothing about quicksilver. To be honest, I don’t even really know what quicksilver is …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>To be honest, Olivia, neither did I before reporting this story out. But mining it was a lucrative hustle during the Gold Rush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, well, before we dive in, then, could we do a little quicksilver 101?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Of course! The South Bay is full of \u003cem>cinnabar\u003c/em>, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10-12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur. Mercury being a more proper name for quicksilver, by the way …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is really taking me back to high school chemistry class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> As it should! And what do you remember about mercury, Olivia?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, well, it’s a liquid at room temperature, and that’s unusual for a metal. And it’s a silvery color…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> You’ve got it! To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out. Now, mercury was super important during the Gold Rush because it was used by gold and silver miners to extract the precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in. Here’s Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, to explain further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>So you pour your mercury over that sand. The mercury kind of grabs onto any precious metal. All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have — uh — looks kinda of like a silver putty. So it’s called an amalgam, and then you heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, and then you are left with your precious metal, which could be gold or silver. It usually looks like spun sugar, almost. It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, I get it. And this stuff must have been in high demand after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848. I imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Exactly. In 1845, California is still a Mexican territory. A Mexican cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero was riding through these foothills when he noticed something unusual — a fiery red-orange paint that local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But how did he know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> At the time Castillero made his discovery, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. So Spain controlled the supply. Which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood mercury’s importance in economic terms. So when Castillero saw that cinnabar in 1845, he understood he was looking at a potential fortune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What was Castillero doing in San José anyway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>He was sent by the Mexican government to catalogue strategic assets. Now, under Mexican law, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves. So when Castillero saw the cinnabar, his life changed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this brings us to one of our Almaden Quicksilver listener questions! It comes from Kiera O’Hara of Santa Clara, who joined you, Rachael, on her \u003cem>second\u003c/em> tour of the Almaden Quicksilver Museum. Second, because she first visited when she was seven or eight years old. The museum is a regular pit stop for South Bay school children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera O’Hara:\u003c/strong> What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The museum sits in the Casa Grande, or big house, a 27-room Classical Revival mansion the mine’s superintendents used to live in. As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush sent demand for quicksilver soaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, SCOTUS recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties. And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. And this is where we get to Kiera’s question, about whether Abraham Lincoln was involved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>There was an aide to President Lincoln who went, “Oh, there’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million dollars in gold mostly that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies. For those of you wondering, $170 million dollars in the 1860s would be worth roughly $7 billion dollars today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So this aide is thinking, ‘Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the U.S. civil war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, “Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me, the aide.” Then, mine manager, John Young, said ‘no!’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>So, just put yourself in John Young’s shoes. Who the heck is this aide showing up all of a sudden with troops behind him and a half-baked plan to take over the mine, because says who?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>He got the miners and said, “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>First, Young rallies his workers. And he fires off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former Almaden manager who now sits inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And said, “This is what’s happening out here. If he takes this mine, there’s the potential that he could take over every mine in California and the western United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Young was essentially saying, if the federal government seizes this mine, it could set off a chain reaction across the West, and at a moment when the Union depends on the support of California’s gold miners. There \u003cem>were\u003c/em> people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kiera, our question asker, asked if Abraham Lincoln was involved. Lynda told us it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking — his calculated warning framed as patriotism — stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we dig in on the environmental impacts of this mine. Plus a listener question about the miners who once worked there. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Sponsor Message\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So we’ve learned that mercury comes from cinnabar. It was super valuable during the Gold Rush because it helps separate gold from ore. And there was a big kerfuffle over the ownership of the Almaden mine that could have changed California’s posture during the Civil War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, I want to touch on the environment … because you don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin, and a huge environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Yes. Unfortunately, some of that mercury made its way downstream, into the San Francisco Bay. In 2002 — not that long ago — scientists identified \u003cem>this\u003c/em> mine as the single largest source of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike. I asked Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, about this very question …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>I can tell you a little bit about it. Yeah. When we acquired the land in the mid-70s, 1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land. Under the furnace yards was, you know, pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, which purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar cleanup effort to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did, I should mention, get help from the state and the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is it safe for us to be in this park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Additional work and monitoring continues, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And what about the fish in the Bay, can we eat them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Errr, that’s a different story, more complicated. As recently as 10 years ago, 2 years then into the big effort to clean up the Bay, KQED explored this very question. Let’s just say, they were still describing it as problematic, not just because of the direct legacy from mining days, but from stormwater runoff and air pollution. Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish … especially large fish … can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand. … At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So that old adage, “Don’t fish off the pier,” sounds like it remains true today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, the longer-lived, big fish, especially. In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment, or OEHHA, recommended children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like sharks and striped bass. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Alright, so that’s two questions dispatched. Let’s move on to question number three. It comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall — the county at the far south west tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 BC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “Poldark,” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed … and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>So there is a saying, if you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish \u003cem>pasty\u003c/em>, which became, in Spanish, the \u003cem>paste. \u003c/em>Over in Grass Valley, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I just did a very cursory search of your — the phone book in San José — and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish surnames like “Hicks” and even “Cornish.” Also, on his trip to San José, not too long ago, and he spotted a curious station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>There’s a station called Ohlone-Chy-NO-weth. Or CHIN-oh-weth, as you call it. Well, Chynoweth in Cornish means “new house.” So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask Andrew. Today, little remains of the area’s once-bustling village life. Aside from the large mansion that now houses the museum, the only hints are the nonnative cypress and poplar trees, and the spreading vinca ground cover … green survivors of gardens long since forgotten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s a bit from a 1960 documentary collaboration I dug up between the Museum and Channel 11 News.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, that have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Andrew has an idea, related to his membership in a Cornish chorus called Barrett’s Privateers. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing The Miners’ Anthem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of The Miners Anthem\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>Maybe to link up with the museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Andrew, Kiera and to you, Rachael.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> My pleasure, as always!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the start of a month, and that means a new voting round is up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Let’s hear your choices …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 1: Why is there a taco truck on every corner in San Francisco and San Mateo? They seem to have sprung up in the last year or two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 2: Why are there huge fans over the tunnels near the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 3: What’s the story with the abandoned cop car in front of the airport off 101? Everyone knows no actual cop is in it, so what’s the scoop with leaving it there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tally a vote for your favorite of those questions at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve still got space in our upcoming Bay Curious Trivia game. Snag some tickets for you and your friends at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "New Almaden: The Mercury Mine That Built a Boomtown South of San José | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitors to the Almaden Quicksilver County Park may well wonder what the heck accounts for the name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who or what was Almaden? What is quicksilver? Why is there a 27-room Classical Revival mansion nestled in more than 4,000 acres in the hills south of San José? So many questions!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It beggars belief today, given how bucolic the park is, but New Almaden once hummed with a busy mining operation in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In its heyday, 1,800 miners and their families lived here, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, a post office, and more. Now there are just a few moldering cemeteries and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a \u003ca href=\"https://parks.santaclaracounty.gov/learn/visit-historic-sites/almaden-quicksilver-mining-museum\">museum\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How quicksilver is used to extract gold\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before we get to our audience questions sent in about Almaden Quicksilver Park, let’s get a handle on why this place was once so valuable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The South Bay is full of cinnabar, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10 million to 12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur, and mercury is the more proper name for the silver-colored quicksilver. To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062447\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062447\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exhibits at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum, south of San José, on Oct. 27, 2025, paint a picture of the dangerous but lucrative craft of mining quicksilver from cinnabar. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Mercury was super important during the Gold Rush, because in its liquid form, gold and silver miners used the quicksilver to extract precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The mercury kind of grabs on to any precious metal,” said Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation. “All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have a kinda of silver putty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miners call that an amalgam. You heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees Fahrenheit, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, leaving you with your precious metal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It usually looks like spun sugar,” Will said. “It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How a Mexican cavalry officer discovered the cinnabar deposit in 1845\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just a few years prior to the discovery of gold at Sutter’s Mill near Sacramento in 1848, California was a Mexican territory. The Mexican government sent a cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero to catalogue strategic assets, and as was the practice at that time, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Castillero was traveling in the South Bay when he noticed a fiery red-orange paint local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062440\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062440\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features different kinds of ore in a display on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the time, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. Spain controlled the supply, which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood he was looking at a potential fortune in the hills south of San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848 and sent demand for quicksilver soaring. Multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, the Supreme Court recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. During the Civil War, the federal government briefly attempted to seize the New Almaden mine because mercury was essential for extracting gold used to finance the Union war effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this is where we get to Bay Curious listener Kiera O’Hara’s question:\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?! \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the museum, parks program coordinator Will told of an aide to President Lincoln who thought, “There’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million (roughly $7 billion today), in gold mostly, that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062439\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062439\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features photos of village life for quicksilver miners and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This aide was thinking something along the lines of, “Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the Civil War?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, ‘Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me.’” Will said. The mine manager at the time, John Young, rallied the miners working for him by saying something akin to “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this,” Will said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young also fired off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former New Almaden manager who happened to be working inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young warned the well-placed friend that the federal government was about to set off a destructive chain reaction across the West, at a moment when the Union depended on the support of California’s gold miners. There were people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Will thinks it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Has the mercury in San José caused environmental problems?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin and an environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of the mercury dug up at New Almaden \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17411/mercury-in-the-bay-part-1\">made its way downstream\u003c/a>, into the San Francisco Bay. Mining continued into the 1970s, and in 2002, scientists identified this mine as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/tracking-a-toxic-trail-long-closed-mine-2709557.php\">single largest source\u003c/a> of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A statue of a miner is featured at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When we acquired the land in the mid-1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land,” Will said. “Under the furnace yards were pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/dtsc-oversees-environmental-cleanup-of-mercury-contaminated-park/\">cleanup effort\u003c/a> to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did get help from the state and federal agencies. Additional work and monitoring continue, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses and otherwise recreate.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Is it safe to eat fish from the San Francisco Bay?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As recently as 10 years ago, two years into the big effort to clean up the Bay, \u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/cpwQ5OFIZRQ?si=SP5B4deyax67I7iR&t=356\">KQED explored this question\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/cpwQ5OFIZRQ'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/cpwQ5OFIZRQ'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish, especially large fish, can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand,” the story said. “At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud. It may take more than 100 years for the Bay to recover.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment recommended that children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like \u003ca href=\"https://oehha.ca.gov/sites/default/files/media/downloads/advisories/fishadvisorysfbayreport2023.pdf\">sharks and striped bass\u003c/a>. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Has Cornish culture survived in the region?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Our final listener question comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall, on the far southwest tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features a Cinnabar display south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Long filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 B.C.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A0U6kQNCN0\">Poldark,\u003c/a>” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s. But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed, and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is a saying, ‘If you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman,’” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish pasty, which became, in Spanish, the paste. Over in \u003ca href=\"https://califcornishcousins.org/\">Grass Valley\u003c/a>, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I just did a very cursory search of your phone book in San José, and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames,” Long said. Also on his trip to San José not too long ago, he spotted the \u003ca href=\"https://www.vta.org/go/stations/ohlone-chynoweth\">Ohlone-Chynoweth\u003c/a> station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Chynoweth in Cornish means ‘new house.’ So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A 1960 documentary collaboration entitled \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/casjhsj_000081\">Quicksilver!\u003c/a> noted that, even then, in the mid-20th century, the mine was fading into the mists of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, which have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Long has an idea related to his membership in a Cornish chorus. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/track/60i1cJcq1fCNgolbUc67Xn\">The Miners’ Anthem\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe to link up with a museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This story starts with three things that don’t seem like they belong together: Cornish miners, mercury poisoning, and Abraham Lincoln. They are, however, all connected to a mine in the foothills south of San José. We’re talking about the Almaden Quicksilver mine. Its glory days are long gone, and so Bay Curious gets a lot of questions about it. KQED’s Rachael Myrow knows all sorts of things South Bay, so we called her up to answer some of your questions. Hey, Rachael!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Hey, Olivia!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So the Almaden Quicksilver mine sits in what is today Almaden Quicksilver County Park. I visited some years ago, and I remember a sprawling park with rolling hills. I think I went in the summertime, so it was very, very, very hot and quite dry. But I can’t say I remember the mine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> That could be because there’s not a lot of the mining apparatus left. But in its heyday, in the 19th century, 1,800 miners and their families populated these hills, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, and much, much more. Now there’s just a few moldering cemeteries …and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a museum, with really restricted hours. I’m going to guess it was closed when you hiked or drove past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmmm, yeah. Must have been. Now, over the years on Bay Curious, we have done quite a few stories that touch on the California Gold Rush, less about the Silver Rushes that followed, but really nothing about quicksilver. To be honest, I don’t even really know what quicksilver is …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>To be honest, Olivia, neither did I before reporting this story out. But mining it was a lucrative hustle during the Gold Rush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, well, before we dive in, then, could we do a little quicksilver 101?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Of course! The South Bay is full of \u003cem>cinnabar\u003c/em>, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10-12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur. Mercury being a more proper name for quicksilver, by the way …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is really taking me back to high school chemistry class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> As it should! And what do you remember about mercury, Olivia?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, well, it’s a liquid at room temperature, and that’s unusual for a metal. And it’s a silvery color…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> You’ve got it! To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out. Now, mercury was super important during the Gold Rush because it was used by gold and silver miners to extract the precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in. Here’s Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, to explain further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>So you pour your mercury over that sand. The mercury kind of grabs onto any precious metal. All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have — uh — looks kinda of like a silver putty. So it’s called an amalgam, and then you heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, and then you are left with your precious metal, which could be gold or silver. It usually looks like spun sugar, almost. It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, I get it. And this stuff must have been in high demand after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848. I imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Exactly. In 1845, California is still a Mexican territory. A Mexican cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero was riding through these foothills when he noticed something unusual — a fiery red-orange paint that local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But how did he know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> At the time Castillero made his discovery, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. So Spain controlled the supply. Which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood mercury’s importance in economic terms. So when Castillero saw that cinnabar in 1845, he understood he was looking at a potential fortune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What was Castillero doing in San José anyway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>He was sent by the Mexican government to catalogue strategic assets. Now, under Mexican law, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves. So when Castillero saw the cinnabar, his life changed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this brings us to one of our Almaden Quicksilver listener questions! It comes from Kiera O’Hara of Santa Clara, who joined you, Rachael, on her \u003cem>second\u003c/em> tour of the Almaden Quicksilver Museum. Second, because she first visited when she was seven or eight years old. The museum is a regular pit stop for South Bay school children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera O’Hara:\u003c/strong> What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The museum sits in the Casa Grande, or big house, a 27-room Classical Revival mansion the mine’s superintendents used to live in. As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush sent demand for quicksilver soaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, SCOTUS recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties. And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. And this is where we get to Kiera’s question, about whether Abraham Lincoln was involved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>There was an aide to President Lincoln who went, “Oh, there’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million dollars in gold mostly that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies. For those of you wondering, $170 million dollars in the 1860s would be worth roughly $7 billion dollars today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So this aide is thinking, ‘Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the U.S. civil war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, “Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me, the aide.” Then, mine manager, John Young, said ‘no!’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>So, just put yourself in John Young’s shoes. Who the heck is this aide showing up all of a sudden with troops behind him and a half-baked plan to take over the mine, because says who?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>He got the miners and said, “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>First, Young rallies his workers. And he fires off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former Almaden manager who now sits inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And said, “This is what’s happening out here. If he takes this mine, there’s the potential that he could take over every mine in California and the western United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Young was essentially saying, if the federal government seizes this mine, it could set off a chain reaction across the West, and at a moment when the Union depends on the support of California’s gold miners. There \u003cem>were\u003c/em> people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kiera, our question asker, asked if Abraham Lincoln was involved. Lynda told us it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking — his calculated warning framed as patriotism — stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we dig in on the environmental impacts of this mine. Plus a listener question about the miners who once worked there. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Sponsor Message\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So we’ve learned that mercury comes from cinnabar. It was super valuable during the Gold Rush because it helps separate gold from ore. And there was a big kerfuffle over the ownership of the Almaden mine that could have changed California’s posture during the Civil War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, I want to touch on the environment … because you don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin, and a huge environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Yes. Unfortunately, some of that mercury made its way downstream, into the San Francisco Bay. In 2002 — not that long ago — scientists identified \u003cem>this\u003c/em> mine as the single largest source of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike. I asked Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, about this very question …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>I can tell you a little bit about it. Yeah. When we acquired the land in the mid-70s, 1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land. Under the furnace yards was, you know, pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, which purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar cleanup effort to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did, I should mention, get help from the state and the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is it safe for us to be in this park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Additional work and monitoring continues, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And what about the fish in the Bay, can we eat them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Errr, that’s a different story, more complicated. As recently as 10 years ago, 2 years then into the big effort to clean up the Bay, KQED explored this very question. Let’s just say, they were still describing it as problematic, not just because of the direct legacy from mining days, but from stormwater runoff and air pollution. Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish … especially large fish … can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand. … At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So that old adage, “Don’t fish off the pier,” sounds like it remains true today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, the longer-lived, big fish, especially. In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment, or OEHHA, recommended children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like sharks and striped bass. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Alright, so that’s two questions dispatched. Let’s move on to question number three. It comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall — the county at the far south west tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 BC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “Poldark,” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed … and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>So there is a saying, if you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish \u003cem>pasty\u003c/em>, which became, in Spanish, the \u003cem>paste. \u003c/em>Over in Grass Valley, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I just did a very cursory search of your — the phone book in San José — and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish surnames like “Hicks” and even “Cornish.” Also, on his trip to San José, not too long ago, and he spotted a curious station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>There’s a station called Ohlone-Chy-NO-weth. Or CHIN-oh-weth, as you call it. Well, Chynoweth in Cornish means “new house.” So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask Andrew. Today, little remains of the area’s once-bustling village life. Aside from the large mansion that now houses the museum, the only hints are the nonnative cypress and poplar trees, and the spreading vinca ground cover … green survivors of gardens long since forgotten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s a bit from a 1960 documentary collaboration I dug up between the Museum and Channel 11 News.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, that have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Andrew has an idea, related to his membership in a Cornish chorus called Barrett’s Privateers. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing The Miners’ Anthem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of The Miners Anthem\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>Maybe to link up with the museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Andrew, Kiera and to you, Rachael.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> My pleasure, as always!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the start of a month, and that means a new voting round is up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Let’s hear your choices …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 1: Why is there a taco truck on every corner in San Francisco and San Mateo? They seem to have sprung up in the last year or two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 2: Why are there huge fans over the tunnels near the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 3: What’s the story with the abandoned cop car in front of the airport off 101? Everyone knows no actual cop is in it, so what’s the scoop with leaving it there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tally a vote for your favorite of those questions at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve still got space in our upcoming Bay Curious Trivia game. Snag some tickets for you and your friends at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Who Is the Bear on the California Flag? A Story Bigger Than One Legend",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many state flags stick to geometric designs. Wyoming has a buffalo, Louisiana has a pelican. But the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day when he found an unexpected story behind it, one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on California’s flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as he looked into the history further, Karn started to have doubts. He noticed some inconsistencies in the story that made him question whether Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>California used to have thousands of grizzlies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the Gold Rush, historians estimate there were \u003ca href=\"https://nhmlac.org/california-grizzly-bear#:~:text=Some%20have%20estimated%20that%20California,skins%20and%20skeletons%20in%20existence.\">10,000 grizzly bears\u003c/a> in California, living alongside hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Spanish ranchers and then gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s portrayed the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers, even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076801\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076801\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1339\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is often said that the bear on the modern California state flag is based on “Monarch,” one of the last grizzly bears to live in the state. But researchers now believe it was based on the drawing of another bear, Samson. \u003ccite>(Joseph Sohm/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You see the bear being really cast as this obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people,” said Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance. “As something that has to be done away with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bounties on grizzlies became common. Ranchers often put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Monarch the bear’s infamous life\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, William Randolph Hearst landed back in his hometown of San Francisco, where his father gave him a small newspaper called the \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He was in his 20s and thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture one of the last California grizzly bears and bring it back to San Francisco alive. So, he tasked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, with the assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. But he strapped on a bandolier of ammunition and struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076803\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076803\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The taxidermied form of Monarch the bear is part of an exhibit called California: State of Nature on display at the California Academy of Sciences. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With help from local hunters, Kelly spent months hiking around the mountains looking for bears with no luck. But eventually, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp and walked into one of the traps he had set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least, that’s how \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/460837694/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">Kelly reported\u003c/a> it in the \u003cem>Examiner \u003c/em>at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Gandy thinks there was no trap. “[Monarch] was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sure enough, Kelly later \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076813\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076813\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"480\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An 1875 image of Woodward’s Gardens, an attraction that was open in the Mission District from 1866 to 189. It featured a museum, art gallery, zoo, rides and more. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Kelly called the bear “Monarch,” as an advertisement for the \u003cem>Examiner\u003c/em>, which had the slogan: “The Monarch of the Dailies.” He brought Monarch, via sled, wagon and train, to a place called Woodward’s Garden in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800’s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/Woodward%27s_Gardens,_c._1860s\">Woodward’s Garden \u003c/a>was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides and an 8-foot-3-inch-tall man who was billed as a giant. It was kind of a carnival, and a sign of its times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch stayed there for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it. Then he was moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fair, called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/California_Midwinter_Fair_of_1894:_An_Orientalist_Exposition\">California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894\u003c/a>, took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display — real people — in a village of papier-mache igloos. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/sfhistory/article/the-racist-fair-that-almost-ruined-golden-gate-16770528.php\">There was a Japanese village\u003c/a>, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear — Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie — where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now. The menagerie had bison, kangaroos, elk, an aviary and now a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could walk up to the enclosure [and] stick your arm in if you wanted to,” said Rebekah Kim, head librarian at the California Academy of Sciences. “You could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076816\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076816\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young guest inspects Monarch the bear, on view for the first time since 2012 at Cal Academy’s “California: State of Nature” exhibition. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars,” said Kim, referencing a historic photograph of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, at nothing. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At that point, he was very overweight; he was paralyzed,” said Kim, “Their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies, and for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, scientists believed them to be extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How California ended up with a bear on its flag\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about 30 American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation: “the California Republic.” They said the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076800\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1474px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076800\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1474\" height=\"848\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg 1474w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1474px) 100vw, 1474px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">This 1855 illustration of the grizzly bear, Samson, was made by artist Charles Nahl. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The bear on that flag bore little resemblance to our current flag’s bear. “[It looks like] maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell,” Kim said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The independent republic didn’t last; California soon became part of the United States. The bear flag stuck around, but everybody was drawing it in a different way. Some versions had the bear standing up, on others it was perched up at the top of the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1911, California adopted the bear flag as its state flag, and the legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and dark brown. In 1953, the state decided to standardize the flag further and try to make the bear look more like a bear, rather than a wolf or a pig. A zoologist was brought in to advise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076799\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1099px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12076799 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1099\" height=\"621\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg 1099w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1099px) 100vw, 1099px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of an illustration showing the raising of the Bear Flag over Sonoma, June 14, 1846. The California Republic flag, complete with grizzly bear, star and stripe, is being raised on the pole. In the background is the home of General Vallejo, an army barracks and a church. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Here’s where the urban legend begins. Many sources report that since all the California grizzlies were dead by then, the flag’s artist used the taxidermied form of Monarch, which was even then on display at the California Academy of Sciences, as a reference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Kim doesn’t buy it. She studied the relevant historical documents, especially the correspondence between the zoologist and the flag’s artist. \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/flag-correspondence.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">According to the letters\u003c/a>, the men used as their main reference a different grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. It had several live grizzlies chained to the floor, as well as elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was a massive grizzly named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A painter called Charles Nahl made illustrations for \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/adventuresofjame00hittrich/page/n9/mode/2up\">a book\u003c/a> about Adams, and one of his paintings was of \u003ca href=\"https://bancroftlibrarycara.wordpress.com/nahl_grizzly_monterey_image_cropped/\">Samson\u003c/a>. It’s \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting, of Samson, that was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The California grizzly’s undeserved reputation\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Not only did Monarch’s story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable and the recovery of them is impossible,” said Peter Alagona, a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together with a team of researchers, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. He found startling results.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076817\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076817\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fran Ritchie of the California Academy of Sciences works to restore Monarch’s fur. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It turns out, California grizzlies were mostly vegetarian and averaged around 500 pounds, much smaller than the monstrous sizes attributed to them. Perhaps most surprisingly, they are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct,” said Alagona. “They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state.[aside postID=news_12076077 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-09-KQED.jpg']He’s aware that to many people this sounds like a very bad idea. But the concept is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They do a lot of amazing things,” he said. “They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alagona’s research suggests that with sufficient numbers and time, grizzlies could even change the state’s vegetation and create firebreaks. But to him, the most important benefit is less tangible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re more about imagination,” Alagona said. “They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out of the 50 states that make up the union, California is considered pretty cool. We’ve got the good weather, the stunning coastline, those laid-back vibes. And we’ve definitely got a cool state flag. If you’ve looked at other flags, many stick to geometric designs. Wyoming does have a buffalo. Louisiana’s got a pelican. But California? Our flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I like to read a lot, and whenever I read, I like to, um, go off on tangents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He found an unexpected story behind it — one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on our flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of California’s last grizzlies, captured in the mountains and then put on display in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of deep dived into Monarch the bear. I was fascinated by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mark has always had a passion for wild animals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I was born in Nigeria and grew up in South Africa. I love looking at nature in its wild state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a teenager, he would take a book out to a remote watering hole where he’d read and wait for animals to come and drink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>And I used to see a little, uh, a duiker. A duiker is a very small antelope. I used to watch the duiker come and, and drink water at the water hole. Definitely one of my most memorable moments, and you know, my happy memories. \u003cem>(Laughs.)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, Mark was dismayed to learn that Monarch, this big, powerful grizzly, was kept behind bars for most of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of cringe at animals in zoos. You know, they supposedly live longer, but to me there’s a, a beauty that they lack when they’re in a cage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And while he was doing his own research, he noticed some inconsistencies in Monarch’s story that made him question if Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag. So he reached out to \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>The bear on the California flag, is it the actual Monarch the Bear that they claim it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To find out if it really was, and to sort through some of the other legends around the bear, reporter Katherine Monahan went to meet Monarch. Or rather, his taxidermied form, more than a century old, on display at the California Academy of Sciences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of chatter and kids in an echoey space\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a weekday afternoon, and the academy is packed with kids and families, mostly checking out the aquarium or the T-rex. They don’t all head for this dimly lit corner of the California exhibit. But those who do\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Wow. That is crazy. Man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Get to see a California grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>Did you know we had grizzly bears?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 3: \u003c/strong>We don’t have ’em anymore, do we?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is powerful-looking, with a muscular hump above his shoulders. He’s dark and shaggy and bigger than a black bear for sure, but not nearly as big as, say, a two-ton polar bear. His claws, though\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>They look lethal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They’re easily as long as my fingers. There’s a cast paw print where people can put their own hand in to compare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 4: \u003c/strong>Go put your hand in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 5: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. That’s just the palm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is standing flat on all fours with kind of a Mona Lisa smile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 6: \u003c/strong>Was he old?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He looks peaceful. But then, he is taxidermied, quite literally a puppet. And we could have made him look however we wanted. Which, in many ways, is what we did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> So much of what we know about grizzlies is a myth. It’s fictitious, it’s fear-based.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says it’s estimated there were ten thousand grizzly bears in the state before the California Gold Rush. And, hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s very abundantly clear that they not only existed alongside grizzlies, but they thrived with grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But the Spanish ranchers and then the gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s saw the bears differently. They told sensational stories that featured the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers — even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>You see the bear being really cast as this, um, obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people, and as something that, you know, has to be done away with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bounties on grizzlies became common. Mostly, they were killed with poison. Ranchers put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s a time of extreme ecological degradation, and you start to get this romanticism for the West, this romantic notion of Native Americans and wildlife. And Monarch falls right into that narrative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Enter William Randolph Hearst. In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, he landed back in his hometown of San Francisco. Where his father gave him a small newspaper called the San Francisco Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Hearst is leading this new wave of journalism that has a lot of sensationalism tied to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He was about 25 years old. And he thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture a live grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So he asked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, to do it. Kelly clearly got right into character, as you can see in his portrait from the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He has these bandoliers of ammunition on both sides of his chest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s just like he’s trying to be Rambo. You’re like, what are you doing, dude?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. So when he struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left, he hired local helpers. They were happy to oblige.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>A man coming from San Francisco with a blank check from one of the richest men in California to go on a bear hunt? That sounds absolutely great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They led this city-slicker journalist around in circles, all the while camping and eating well and seeing plenty of bear sign, but not trapping any bears. Kelly eventually caught on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He starts to realize that all these grizzly bear tracks that he’s seeing are actually probably not being made by a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So he fired his crew. But by then he’d been gone for five months, and he was getting desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Like, I need a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Just then, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp, conquered a cinnamon bear called Six-Toed Pete in an epic moonlit battle, and walked into his trap. At least, that’s how Kelly reported it in the Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>A great ripping and tearing was heard going on inside. The Monarch was caught at last. Upon the approach of men, the grizzly became furious and made the heavy logs tremble and shake in his efforts to get out and resent the indignity that had been put upon him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But Gandy thinks there was no trap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos. And when they’re able to use four different horses to pull the bear’s arms and legs in four different directions, you have a bear that basically is stuck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> About fifteen years later, Kelly \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regardless, he still had to transport it to San Francisco. Which he reports in swashbuckling, self-aggrandizing detail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>The Monarch was now bound, gagged, and utterly helpless, but he never ceased roaring with rage at his captors and struggling to get just one swipe at them with his paw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Naming the bear “Monarch” was kind of an advertisement for the Examiner, which had the slogan “The Monarch of the Dailies.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly describes how the grizzly broke his teeth trying to gnaw through his chains. How he tied Monarch to a kind of sled and hauled him down the mountain, and then built a cage and mounted it on a wagon and then a train for San Francisco … to a place called Woodward’s Garden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800’s, Woodward’s Garden was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides, an eight foot three inch tall man who was billed as a giant . . . It was kind of a carnival. And a sign of its time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They had, like, live bears jumping from like a diving board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Whoa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, and then bears in captivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Examiner covered Monarch’s arrival at the garden with great drama: how one of the black bears died of fright when he arrived. How he tore through his cage into the hyena enclosure and rolled up sheets of iron like they were paper. How he was the only grizzly bear in captivity (which is not true. There was another one at the Oregon Zoo). How he weighed a thousand pounds (also not true).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of chatter at the Academy of Sciences\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Back at Monarch’s taxidermy display, we talk about how the fabled massiveness of grizzly bears was yet another tall tale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> I have never seen a grizzly, and I thought they’d be a lot bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No, actually, technically. Monarch is a little overweight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim explains that despite grizzlies’ reputation for being huge and vicious\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They were mostly vegan. And they probably weighed close to like 500 ish pounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Why would you bother being vegan with a body like that? Look at those claws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>I don’t know. I mean, and that’s the thing, it’s like a dispelling a myth. I think California grizzlies were hunted down because they were thought to be, um, apex predators and a threat to livestock and people, but they really weren’t going after those things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It turns out the claws, along with the muscular hump on the shoulders, are really for digging. Grizzlies are omnivores, and eat mostly vegetarian. In captivity, however,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Monarch’s diet consisted of biscuits, sugar, peanuts, not his natural diet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> No wonder he is portly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>He is. He was like, um, I don’t know exactly, around 900 pounds. So double the normal size of a grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch stayed in Woodward’s Garden for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And then he moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park as part of like the 49 ERs camp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Wait a second. \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/457584756/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">As a live bear. He was in the World Fair?\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he was. There’s, oh, I have a picture somewhere. He’s like in a pit. It’s actually really sad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The 1894 World’s Fair took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display, real people, in a village of papier-mache igloos. There was a Japanese village, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear. Here’s, once again, the San Francisco Examiner:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>Monarch, the Examiner bear, is a wild and untamed beast, and has not yet been told that one of the lion tribe is likely to invade his home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Fairgoers were clamouring for a lion to be dropped into Monarch’s concrete pit so they’d fight. But the fair managers, in a rare moment of good taste, refused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the World’s Fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie, where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could see a bunch of different animals. It was free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> This was the late 1800s, well before the San Francisco Zoo, and really before any real understanding of how to run a zoo. The park had bison, as it still does, but also kangaroos and elk and an aviary. And a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could walk up to the enclosure, stick your arm in if you wanted to. Um, and you could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of historic photos. You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> She shows me one of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, into nothing. After the first decade, his keepers became concerned by his apparent depression and brought a female grizzly called Montana Babe. Over time, they had several cubs. Some of them died. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>At that point. He was very overweight, he was like paralyzed and not moving, and so the, I think their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies. And for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, they were extinct … or so we believed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we come back, we turn to Mark’s question. \u003cem>Is Monarch\u003c/em> the bear on the California flag? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we come to the question of our state flag, featuring a strong and proud-looking grizzly bear. Our question asker, Mark Karn, wanted to know if, as the legend goes, \u003cem>Monarch\u003c/em> is the bear on the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Katherine Monahan again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The history of the bear flag goes way back – to before California was even a state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about thirty American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation. The California Republic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of their flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>The first one is just like a silhouette of a. You think maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To the rebels, the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.” Their new republic didn’t last – California soon became part of the United States. But the bear flag stuck around. Only everybody was drawing it in a different way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s another variation where the bear is up on its hind legs and kind of standing up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1911, California decided to make it the state flag. And the state legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and it must be dark brown\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>But there are no specific specifications about what it’s supposed to look like, so then, depending on the printer, you can get a different version.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So, in 1953, the legislature decided we needed to standardize the flag and try to make the bear look more reliably like a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And so there is a zoologist who is an expert on California grizzlies, who’s sort of informing the designer about how to change the image to make it less like either a wolf or like a pig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The problem was, all the California grizzlies were dead by then. So what could the artist look at for a reference? The taxidermied form of Monarch could have been helpful, and there is a 1953 article in the San Francisco Chronicle that suggests it was part of the process. But Kim doesn’t buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No. Looking at the historical documents of the illustrator. All the back and forth is not about Monarch. The references he uses is a different illustration and some, um, images of other grizzlies in other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So it’s. Kind of an urban legend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>It is, and it is perpetuated by lots of sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim herself was one of them, until she did this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong> I was like, oh no, I’ve told people, like I’ve told the wrong thing to people. Cause that has been the narrative that we’ve been fed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The real model for the California state flag, as it turns out, was Samson, another famous grizzly that spent time in San Francisco long before Monarch showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. A newspaper reporter described a dingy basement with several live grizzlies chained to the floor. There were also elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping:\u003c/strong> At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was the monster grizzly Samson. He was an immense creature weighing some three-quarters of a ton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> A painter called Charles Nahl made a detailed portrait of Samson. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting of \u003cem>that\u003c/em> bear was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>The entire story was, was wrong in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Pete Alagona is a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara. He says not only did \u003cem>Monarch’s \u003c/em>story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>And the most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable, and the recovery of them is impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To get closer to the truth, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. His team found startling results. It turns out California grizzlies are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct. They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Now, Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state. The idea is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> You are aware that to a lot of people, the idea of reintroducing grizzlies sounds pretty nuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>Um, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> What’s, what’s your response to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>So, you know, when I started this project, it sounded nuts to me too. I wasn’t interested in that. I was just interested in learning about them. And as I went further along, I realized, it’s totally possible. Which means it’s a choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And if it’s a choice, he figures, we should make it an informed one by learning more about grizzlies. And not, this time, from what people have said about them, but by studying the animals themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They do a lot of amazing things. They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He says the biggest benefits that grizzlies might bring back to California, though, are not really about the ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re more about. Imagination. They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. Yes, there is a possibility for things that seem impossible. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Maybe Monarch’s story is a kind of allegory for our present moment. On one hand, we live in a time of severe environmental loss, and many of us, to some extent, feel it and can relate to the depressed, overweight captive bear. On the other hand, this is a time of incredible possibility. When enough of our natural world still lives that it may be able to make a comeback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who knows if we’ll ever find grizzlies in California again? But for now, we have our flag — adorned with an image of the fierce, proud, mostly vegetarian bear — named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are in the middle of our experiment of dropping two episodes a week, and we want to know what you think! Share your feedback with us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This question came from listener Mark Karn, and hey, who knows, a future episode could come from YOUR question. Our show is only possible because you keep asking them. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and submit a question right at the top of the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Gabriella Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many state flags stick to geometric designs. Wyoming has a buffalo, Louisiana has a pelican. But the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day when he found an unexpected story behind it, one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on California’s flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as he looked into the history further, Karn started to have doubts. He noticed some inconsistencies in the story that made him question whether Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>California used to have thousands of grizzlies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the Gold Rush, historians estimate there were \u003ca href=\"https://nhmlac.org/california-grizzly-bear#:~:text=Some%20have%20estimated%20that%20California,skins%20and%20skeletons%20in%20existence.\">10,000 grizzly bears\u003c/a> in California, living alongside hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Spanish ranchers and then gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s portrayed the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers, even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076801\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076801\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1339\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is often said that the bear on the modern California state flag is based on “Monarch,” one of the last grizzly bears to live in the state. But researchers now believe it was based on the drawing of another bear, Samson. \u003ccite>(Joseph Sohm/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You see the bear being really cast as this obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people,” said Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance. “As something that has to be done away with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bounties on grizzlies became common. Ranchers often put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Monarch the bear’s infamous life\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, William Randolph Hearst landed back in his hometown of San Francisco, where his father gave him a small newspaper called the \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He was in his 20s and thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture one of the last California grizzly bears and bring it back to San Francisco alive. So, he tasked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, with the assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. But he strapped on a bandolier of ammunition and struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076803\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076803\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The taxidermied form of Monarch the bear is part of an exhibit called California: State of Nature on display at the California Academy of Sciences. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With help from local hunters, Kelly spent months hiking around the mountains looking for bears with no luck. But eventually, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp and walked into one of the traps he had set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least, that’s how \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/460837694/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">Kelly reported\u003c/a> it in the \u003cem>Examiner \u003c/em>at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Gandy thinks there was no trap. “[Monarch] was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sure enough, Kelly later \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076813\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076813\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"480\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An 1875 image of Woodward’s Gardens, an attraction that was open in the Mission District from 1866 to 189. It featured a museum, art gallery, zoo, rides and more. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Kelly called the bear “Monarch,” as an advertisement for the \u003cem>Examiner\u003c/em>, which had the slogan: “The Monarch of the Dailies.” He brought Monarch, via sled, wagon and train, to a place called Woodward’s Garden in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800’s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/Woodward%27s_Gardens,_c._1860s\">Woodward’s Garden \u003c/a>was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides and an 8-foot-3-inch-tall man who was billed as a giant. It was kind of a carnival, and a sign of its times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch stayed there for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it. Then he was moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fair, called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/California_Midwinter_Fair_of_1894:_An_Orientalist_Exposition\">California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894\u003c/a>, took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display — real people — in a village of papier-mache igloos. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/sfhistory/article/the-racist-fair-that-almost-ruined-golden-gate-16770528.php\">There was a Japanese village\u003c/a>, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear — Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie — where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now. The menagerie had bison, kangaroos, elk, an aviary and now a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could walk up to the enclosure [and] stick your arm in if you wanted to,” said Rebekah Kim, head librarian at the California Academy of Sciences. “You could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076816\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076816\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young guest inspects Monarch the bear, on view for the first time since 2012 at Cal Academy’s “California: State of Nature” exhibition. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars,” said Kim, referencing a historic photograph of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, at nothing. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At that point, he was very overweight; he was paralyzed,” said Kim, “Their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies, and for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, scientists believed them to be extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How California ended up with a bear on its flag\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about 30 American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation: “the California Republic.” They said the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076800\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1474px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076800\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1474\" height=\"848\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg 1474w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1474px) 100vw, 1474px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">This 1855 illustration of the grizzly bear, Samson, was made by artist Charles Nahl. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The bear on that flag bore little resemblance to our current flag’s bear. “[It looks like] maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell,” Kim said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The independent republic didn’t last; California soon became part of the United States. The bear flag stuck around, but everybody was drawing it in a different way. Some versions had the bear standing up, on others it was perched up at the top of the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1911, California adopted the bear flag as its state flag, and the legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and dark brown. In 1953, the state decided to standardize the flag further and try to make the bear look more like a bear, rather than a wolf or a pig. A zoologist was brought in to advise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076799\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1099px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12076799 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1099\" height=\"621\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg 1099w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1099px) 100vw, 1099px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of an illustration showing the raising of the Bear Flag over Sonoma, June 14, 1846. The California Republic flag, complete with grizzly bear, star and stripe, is being raised on the pole. In the background is the home of General Vallejo, an army barracks and a church. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Here’s where the urban legend begins. Many sources report that since all the California grizzlies were dead by then, the flag’s artist used the taxidermied form of Monarch, which was even then on display at the California Academy of Sciences, as a reference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Kim doesn’t buy it. She studied the relevant historical documents, especially the correspondence between the zoologist and the flag’s artist. \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/flag-correspondence.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">According to the letters\u003c/a>, the men used as their main reference a different grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. It had several live grizzlies chained to the floor, as well as elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was a massive grizzly named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A painter called Charles Nahl made illustrations for \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/adventuresofjame00hittrich/page/n9/mode/2up\">a book\u003c/a> about Adams, and one of his paintings was of \u003ca href=\"https://bancroftlibrarycara.wordpress.com/nahl_grizzly_monterey_image_cropped/\">Samson\u003c/a>. It’s \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting, of Samson, that was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The California grizzly’s undeserved reputation\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Not only did Monarch’s story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable and the recovery of them is impossible,” said Peter Alagona, a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together with a team of researchers, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. He found startling results.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076817\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076817\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fran Ritchie of the California Academy of Sciences works to restore Monarch’s fur. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It turns out, California grizzlies were mostly vegetarian and averaged around 500 pounds, much smaller than the monstrous sizes attributed to them. Perhaps most surprisingly, they are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct,” said Alagona. “They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>He’s aware that to many people this sounds like a very bad idea. But the concept is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They do a lot of amazing things,” he said. “They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alagona’s research suggests that with sufficient numbers and time, grizzlies could even change the state’s vegetation and create firebreaks. But to him, the most important benefit is less tangible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re more about imagination,” Alagona said. “They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out of the 50 states that make up the union, California is considered pretty cool. We’ve got the good weather, the stunning coastline, those laid-back vibes. And we’ve definitely got a cool state flag. If you’ve looked at other flags, many stick to geometric designs. Wyoming does have a buffalo. Louisiana’s got a pelican. But California? Our flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I like to read a lot, and whenever I read, I like to, um, go off on tangents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He found an unexpected story behind it — one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on our flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of California’s last grizzlies, captured in the mountains and then put on display in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of deep dived into Monarch the bear. I was fascinated by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mark has always had a passion for wild animals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I was born in Nigeria and grew up in South Africa. I love looking at nature in its wild state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a teenager, he would take a book out to a remote watering hole where he’d read and wait for animals to come and drink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>And I used to see a little, uh, a duiker. A duiker is a very small antelope. I used to watch the duiker come and, and drink water at the water hole. Definitely one of my most memorable moments, and you know, my happy memories. \u003cem>(Laughs.)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, Mark was dismayed to learn that Monarch, this big, powerful grizzly, was kept behind bars for most of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of cringe at animals in zoos. You know, they supposedly live longer, but to me there’s a, a beauty that they lack when they’re in a cage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And while he was doing his own research, he noticed some inconsistencies in Monarch’s story that made him question if Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag. So he reached out to \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>The bear on the California flag, is it the actual Monarch the Bear that they claim it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To find out if it really was, and to sort through some of the other legends around the bear, reporter Katherine Monahan went to meet Monarch. Or rather, his taxidermied form, more than a century old, on display at the California Academy of Sciences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of chatter and kids in an echoey space\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a weekday afternoon, and the academy is packed with kids and families, mostly checking out the aquarium or the T-rex. They don’t all head for this dimly lit corner of the California exhibit. But those who do\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Wow. That is crazy. Man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Get to see a California grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>Did you know we had grizzly bears?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 3: \u003c/strong>We don’t have ’em anymore, do we?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is powerful-looking, with a muscular hump above his shoulders. He’s dark and shaggy and bigger than a black bear for sure, but not nearly as big as, say, a two-ton polar bear. His claws, though\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>They look lethal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They’re easily as long as my fingers. There’s a cast paw print where people can put their own hand in to compare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 4: \u003c/strong>Go put your hand in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 5: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. That’s just the palm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is standing flat on all fours with kind of a Mona Lisa smile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 6: \u003c/strong>Was he old?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He looks peaceful. But then, he is taxidermied, quite literally a puppet. And we could have made him look however we wanted. Which, in many ways, is what we did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> So much of what we know about grizzlies is a myth. It’s fictitious, it’s fear-based.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says it’s estimated there were ten thousand grizzly bears in the state before the California Gold Rush. And, hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s very abundantly clear that they not only existed alongside grizzlies, but they thrived with grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But the Spanish ranchers and then the gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s saw the bears differently. They told sensational stories that featured the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers — even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>You see the bear being really cast as this, um, obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people, and as something that, you know, has to be done away with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bounties on grizzlies became common. Mostly, they were killed with poison. Ranchers put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s a time of extreme ecological degradation, and you start to get this romanticism for the West, this romantic notion of Native Americans and wildlife. And Monarch falls right into that narrative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Enter William Randolph Hearst. In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, he landed back in his hometown of San Francisco. Where his father gave him a small newspaper called the San Francisco Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Hearst is leading this new wave of journalism that has a lot of sensationalism tied to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He was about 25 years old. And he thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture a live grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So he asked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, to do it. Kelly clearly got right into character, as you can see in his portrait from the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He has these bandoliers of ammunition on both sides of his chest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s just like he’s trying to be Rambo. You’re like, what are you doing, dude?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. So when he struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left, he hired local helpers. They were happy to oblige.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>A man coming from San Francisco with a blank check from one of the richest men in California to go on a bear hunt? That sounds absolutely great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They led this city-slicker journalist around in circles, all the while camping and eating well and seeing plenty of bear sign, but not trapping any bears. Kelly eventually caught on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He starts to realize that all these grizzly bear tracks that he’s seeing are actually probably not being made by a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So he fired his crew. But by then he’d been gone for five months, and he was getting desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Like, I need a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Just then, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp, conquered a cinnamon bear called Six-Toed Pete in an epic moonlit battle, and walked into his trap. At least, that’s how Kelly reported it in the Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>A great ripping and tearing was heard going on inside. The Monarch was caught at last. Upon the approach of men, the grizzly became furious and made the heavy logs tremble and shake in his efforts to get out and resent the indignity that had been put upon him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But Gandy thinks there was no trap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos. And when they’re able to use four different horses to pull the bear’s arms and legs in four different directions, you have a bear that basically is stuck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> About fifteen years later, Kelly \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regardless, he still had to transport it to San Francisco. Which he reports in swashbuckling, self-aggrandizing detail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>The Monarch was now bound, gagged, and utterly helpless, but he never ceased roaring with rage at his captors and struggling to get just one swipe at them with his paw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Naming the bear “Monarch” was kind of an advertisement for the Examiner, which had the slogan “The Monarch of the Dailies.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly describes how the grizzly broke his teeth trying to gnaw through his chains. How he tied Monarch to a kind of sled and hauled him down the mountain, and then built a cage and mounted it on a wagon and then a train for San Francisco … to a place called Woodward’s Garden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800’s, Woodward’s Garden was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides, an eight foot three inch tall man who was billed as a giant . . . It was kind of a carnival. And a sign of its time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They had, like, live bears jumping from like a diving board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Whoa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, and then bears in captivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Examiner covered Monarch’s arrival at the garden with great drama: how one of the black bears died of fright when he arrived. How he tore through his cage into the hyena enclosure and rolled up sheets of iron like they were paper. How he was the only grizzly bear in captivity (which is not true. There was another one at the Oregon Zoo). How he weighed a thousand pounds (also not true).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of chatter at the Academy of Sciences\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Back at Monarch’s taxidermy display, we talk about how the fabled massiveness of grizzly bears was yet another tall tale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> I have never seen a grizzly, and I thought they’d be a lot bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No, actually, technically. Monarch is a little overweight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim explains that despite grizzlies’ reputation for being huge and vicious\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They were mostly vegan. And they probably weighed close to like 500 ish pounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Why would you bother being vegan with a body like that? Look at those claws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>I don’t know. I mean, and that’s the thing, it’s like a dispelling a myth. I think California grizzlies were hunted down because they were thought to be, um, apex predators and a threat to livestock and people, but they really weren’t going after those things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It turns out the claws, along with the muscular hump on the shoulders, are really for digging. Grizzlies are omnivores, and eat mostly vegetarian. In captivity, however,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Monarch’s diet consisted of biscuits, sugar, peanuts, not his natural diet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> No wonder he is portly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>He is. He was like, um, I don’t know exactly, around 900 pounds. So double the normal size of a grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch stayed in Woodward’s Garden for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And then he moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park as part of like the 49 ERs camp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Wait a second. \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/457584756/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">As a live bear. He was in the World Fair?\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he was. There’s, oh, I have a picture somewhere. He’s like in a pit. It’s actually really sad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The 1894 World’s Fair took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display, real people, in a village of papier-mache igloos. There was a Japanese village, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear. Here’s, once again, the San Francisco Examiner:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>Monarch, the Examiner bear, is a wild and untamed beast, and has not yet been told that one of the lion tribe is likely to invade his home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Fairgoers were clamouring for a lion to be dropped into Monarch’s concrete pit so they’d fight. But the fair managers, in a rare moment of good taste, refused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the World’s Fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie, where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could see a bunch of different animals. It was free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> This was the late 1800s, well before the San Francisco Zoo, and really before any real understanding of how to run a zoo. The park had bison, as it still does, but also kangaroos and elk and an aviary. And a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could walk up to the enclosure, stick your arm in if you wanted to. Um, and you could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of historic photos. You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> She shows me one of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, into nothing. After the first decade, his keepers became concerned by his apparent depression and brought a female grizzly called Montana Babe. Over time, they had several cubs. Some of them died. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>At that point. He was very overweight, he was like paralyzed and not moving, and so the, I think their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies. And for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, they were extinct … or so we believed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we come back, we turn to Mark’s question. \u003cem>Is Monarch\u003c/em> the bear on the California flag? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we come to the question of our state flag, featuring a strong and proud-looking grizzly bear. Our question asker, Mark Karn, wanted to know if, as the legend goes, \u003cem>Monarch\u003c/em> is the bear on the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Katherine Monahan again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The history of the bear flag goes way back – to before California was even a state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about thirty American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation. The California Republic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of their flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>The first one is just like a silhouette of a. You think maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To the rebels, the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.” Their new republic didn’t last – California soon became part of the United States. But the bear flag stuck around. Only everybody was drawing it in a different way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s another variation where the bear is up on its hind legs and kind of standing up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1911, California decided to make it the state flag. And the state legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and it must be dark brown\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>But there are no specific specifications about what it’s supposed to look like, so then, depending on the printer, you can get a different version.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So, in 1953, the legislature decided we needed to standardize the flag and try to make the bear look more reliably like a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And so there is a zoologist who is an expert on California grizzlies, who’s sort of informing the designer about how to change the image to make it less like either a wolf or like a pig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The problem was, all the California grizzlies were dead by then. So what could the artist look at for a reference? The taxidermied form of Monarch could have been helpful, and there is a 1953 article in the San Francisco Chronicle that suggests it was part of the process. But Kim doesn’t buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No. Looking at the historical documents of the illustrator. All the back and forth is not about Monarch. The references he uses is a different illustration and some, um, images of other grizzlies in other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So it’s. Kind of an urban legend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>It is, and it is perpetuated by lots of sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim herself was one of them, until she did this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong> I was like, oh no, I’ve told people, like I’ve told the wrong thing to people. Cause that has been the narrative that we’ve been fed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The real model for the California state flag, as it turns out, was Samson, another famous grizzly that spent time in San Francisco long before Monarch showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. A newspaper reporter described a dingy basement with several live grizzlies chained to the floor. There were also elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping:\u003c/strong> At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was the monster grizzly Samson. He was an immense creature weighing some three-quarters of a ton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> A painter called Charles Nahl made a detailed portrait of Samson. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting of \u003cem>that\u003c/em> bear was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>The entire story was, was wrong in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Pete Alagona is a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara. He says not only did \u003cem>Monarch’s \u003c/em>story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>And the most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable, and the recovery of them is impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To get closer to the truth, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. His team found startling results. It turns out California grizzlies are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct. They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Now, Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state. The idea is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> You are aware that to a lot of people, the idea of reintroducing grizzlies sounds pretty nuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>Um, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> What’s, what’s your response to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>So, you know, when I started this project, it sounded nuts to me too. I wasn’t interested in that. I was just interested in learning about them. And as I went further along, I realized, it’s totally possible. Which means it’s a choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And if it’s a choice, he figures, we should make it an informed one by learning more about grizzlies. And not, this time, from what people have said about them, but by studying the animals themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They do a lot of amazing things. They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He says the biggest benefits that grizzlies might bring back to California, though, are not really about the ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re more about. Imagination. They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. Yes, there is a possibility for things that seem impossible. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Maybe Monarch’s story is a kind of allegory for our present moment. On one hand, we live in a time of severe environmental loss, and many of us, to some extent, feel it and can relate to the depressed, overweight captive bear. On the other hand, this is a time of incredible possibility. When enough of our natural world still lives that it may be able to make a comeback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who knows if we’ll ever find grizzlies in California again? But for now, we have our flag — adorned with an image of the fierce, proud, mostly vegetarian bear — named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are in the middle of our experiment of dropping two episodes a week, and we want to know what you think! Share your feedback with us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This question came from listener Mark Karn, and hey, who knows, a future episode could come from YOUR question. Our show is only possible because you keep asking them. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and submit a question right at the top of the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Gabriella Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Dennis O’Neill was a kid growing up in the Outer Sunset neighborhood of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a>, his world largely consisted of several blocks to either side of his home. In one direction was his school, Saint Cecilia’s, and in the other was Carl Larsen Park, which had all the usual fun and games plus something a little extra special — a real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was fantastic, I have to say,” O’Neill said. “I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And he’s certainly not the only one. Every time a picture of the Larsen Park plane gets posted to history groups on Facebook, the comments blow up with hundreds of people fondly remembering playing on the jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was a meeting place, after school,” O’Neill remembered. “‘Meet at the airplane.’ That was common. And when you started getting girlfriends or hanging out with girls, that was a safe place to hang out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each kid who played in Larsen Park remembers \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/larsen_park_jets.php\">“their plane” clearly\u003c/a>, but over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975 — and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane our \u003ca href=\"http://www.baycurious.org\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, played on when he was little.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s some of my earliest memories,” said Van Lieu, who thinks he was 5 for 6. “My brother, dad and I we [went] there in the late 80s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067017\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067017\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks up at the Vought F-8 Crusader with Janet Doto at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Van Lieu remembers stopping at the park with his dad and brother as a treat after a Saturday morning spent going to open houses with his dad, who was a realtor. The jet was the kids’ reward for behaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved, and hide and seek,” Van Lieu reminisced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But despite these fond memories, Aaron also remembers watching the jet slowly fall apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067018\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12067018 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks at a display showing photos of the Vought F-8 Crusader from when it was located at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco, and its removal from the park at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and disappearing,” Van Lieu said. “And then, eventually, it was kind of like this skeleton.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then one day it was gone. Aaron has spent the better part of 30 years wondering where it landed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He wants to know: “What happened to the jet and why did it get taken out — aside from being covered in graffiti? I just wanna know where it went from there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How did a Navy jet end up in Larsen Park in the first place?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park opened in 1926 after Danish immigrant and Tivoli Cafe owner Carl Larsen donated the land. At the time, the concept of a playground was fairly new. \u003ca href=\"https://savingplaces.org/stories/how-we-came-to-play-the-history-of-playgrounds/\">They came into fashion at the turn of the century \u003c/a>when people started to realize that children weren’t just mini adults, but developing beings that learned through play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off-hours of school,” said Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days, every park had a Recreation Director who kept play equipment in their office, organized games and kept an eye on the kids when they were at the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076067\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1254\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-160x100.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-1536x963.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Children play on the first Larsen Park jet circa 1964. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The first jet came to Larsen Park in 1958.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That period is called the jet age because we have rockets being developed,” Pollock said. “People want to go to the moon, and people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pollock said even back then, San Francisco didn’t want to be like everywhere else. The general manager of Rec and Park at the time heard that there were surplus jets at \u003ca href=\"https://www.moffettfieldmuseum.org/\">Moffett Field \u003c/a>in Mountain View.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing,” Pollock said. “Our kids were going to learn the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took the engine out of the jet, put it on a truck and dragged it up the freeway to the park with a California Highway Patrol escort. But once in the park, kids were hard on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1387\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-1536x1065.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The third and final Larsen Park jet, a 1956 F-8 Crusader, just before being removed from the park by Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteers. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Pacific Coast Air Museum)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“About every 10 years, these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The second jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “Shark in the Park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> article from Jan. 15, 1975, details its route:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo. … The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After landing at the Zoo, workers towed the jet two and a half miles northeast, going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park. And there it stayed for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the early 1990s, the F-8 Crusader had seen better days, and city leaders were learning more about the hazards to kids that it posed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070945\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070945\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The jet play structure that replaced the Vought F-8 Crusader at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue. It was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based, and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1993, city leaders had the Navy take the jet back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park was without a jet for 22 years. In 2015, Larsen Park playground got a makeover, and community leaders insisted that the new play structure look like a jet plane. It’s no longer the real deal, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So, what happened to the Shark in the Park?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Mattison used to commute from Santa Rosa to a job in Daly City. When he was idling in traffic on 19th Avenue, he’d look over at Larsen Park and see the plane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look over there, and I say, ‘What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible,’” Mattison remembered. “And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Retired from the workforce now, and an Air Force veteran, Mattison is a volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/\">Pacific Coast Air Museum (PCAM)\u003c/a>, where the Shark in the Park ended up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067090\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067090\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jim Mattison, the Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteer responsible for restoring the Vought F-8 Crusader, talks to Aaron Van Lieu about the restoration process at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The way he tells it, San Francisco leaders were bugging the Navy to take the plane away because it was hazardous. Then, the Navy basically begged the museum to take the F-8 Crusader off their hands, promising that if they did, more aircraft might come the museum’s way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like to say this was the catalyst,” Mattison said. “This started our association with the Navy. We developed a really close association because we started getting more and more assets. So that’s how we wound up becoming a museum, because we took this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, the museum has an impressive set of aircraft to visit at its open-air site. Some planes flew during War War II, Korea and Vietnam. They have a plane that was one of the first responders to the 9/11 attacks in New York City in 2001. Each volunteer has their favorites — often related to the branch of the military where they served.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']“We are not a velvet rope air museum,” Mattison said. “We encourage people to touch them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the F-8 Crusader first arrived at the museum in 1993, a crew did a ton of work to reverse some of the things San Francisco Rec and Park had done to make the plane safer for kids. Park workers had filled the body of the plane with concrete to prevent kids from crawling through it — the PCAM crew had to jackhammer it out. And, the body of the plane had been buried in the sand — another safety measure to soften the landing when kids fell off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The entire section of the fuselage where the engine and all the internal components were was filled with sand,” said Guy Crow, a PCAM volunteer who worked on the plane when it first arrived. “About seven yards of sand we scraped, swept, shoveled, vacuumed. And it took us a couple of weeks to get it all out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That original team got the plane looking presentable and painted it with the telltale shark mouth for which it was known. They even had T-shirts made up with “Shark in the Park” on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after more than two decades on display in the field at the museum, the weather had taken its toll on the F-8. Museum staff removed it from the display in 2012 and started revamping it once again in 2014.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We treat [them like] they’re full-size model airplanes,” Mattison said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mattison’s team removed still more sand, fixed the rudder and reskinned the wings and flaps, patched the fuselage and gave it a new paint job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067024\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067024\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Museum visitor Michael Wilkins reads about the F-5E Tiger II at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors,” Mattison said. “That was the last squadron it flew out of.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The F-8 Crusader was built in 1956 as a “supersonic dayfighter. It was fast. I think it was [one of] the first Navy aircraft that achieved a thousand miles an hour. It’s very maneuverable, and the pilots loved flying it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, accompanied me on the trip to the museum. He remembered the jet immediately, although he said it looked bigger than he remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just a rush and flush of emotions and memories,” he said. “I’m on top of the world, being able to see it again. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>The Pacific Coast Air Museum is open \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/visit-us/#hours_admin\">\u003cem>Thursday-Sunday, 10 a.m.-4 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> It’s\u003c/em> \u003cem>located at the Charles M Schulz — Sonoma County Airport, off Airport Boulevard on the corner of N. Laughlin Road. and Becker Boulevard.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Things were different for San Francisco kids back in the 1960s and ’70s. For one, there was a lot more freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>In those days, there were no cars parked on the street for the most part. And there were kids everywhere. You know, there were six or seven kids on my block. My name’s Dennis O’Neill. I grew up on 18th Avenue from about 1963 to 1980.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Dennis and the other neighborhood kids spent a lot of time at nearby Larsen Park. It’s right on busy 19th Avenue at Vicente Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>We were seven or eight. And our parents, you know, allowed us to cross 19th Avenue, the highway, on a green light and go to the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Back then, every city park had a park director. They would organize games, keep an eye on the kids and maintain play equipment. But Larsen Park also had something that made it extra special. A real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It felt like an actual jet landed in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And wow, was that jet beloved by the neighborhood kids!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It was fantastic, I have to say. I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Our question asker this week, Aaron Van Lieu, also spent a lot of time at the plane in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu:\u003c/strong> It’s some of my earliest memories. My brother, dad and I were going there in the late ’80s, like ’88-’89. So I was like 4, 5, 6.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975, and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane Aaron remembers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved. And hide and seek and you know, just running around it. My dad, you know, trying to explain what certain things were because for a long time the canopy was there, and you could see inside of it, and it had all the gauges and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But Aaron also remembers how the jet slowly started falling apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and going and disappearing. So, and then eventually it was like kind of like this, like skeleton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And then, one day, it was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aaron has spent decades wondering what happened to that jet that he loved so much. He even credits it, in small part, with his love of aviation and a short stint as a flight attendant. He wants to know:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>What happened to the jet, and why did it get taken out, aside from being covered in graffiti? So I just wanna know where it went from there, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And, I want to know who thought a jet in a playground was a good idea in the first place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz, always the pragmatic one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A real fighter jet has to be one of the most expensive pieces of playground equipment ever!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So, I did a little math, and the plane cost about 2 million to build originally, which is nearly $24 million today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of pickleball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Our modern obsessions on display at the park are a little more mundane … and a lot less expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Pickleball sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The near constant pop and thwack of the very popular pickleball courts has been the soundtrack to Larsen Park since they opened in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I visited with Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department, to learn a little more about this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>So Carl L Larsen is a Danish immigrant who was a cafe owner in downtown San Francisco. He owned the Tivoli Cafe and he was quite a large landowner in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Larsen gave the city a parcel of land to create a park before this west side neighborhood was even fully built. The park opened in 1926. Bisected by Vicente Street, one side had tennis courts and playground equipment and the other side had an open field and a swimming pool, now called Sava Pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>He, as a developer, certainly had the vision that San Francisco was going to grow and that things would grow to be what they are today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>At this point, playgrounds were a fairly new idea. They only came into fashion in the early 1900s as a tool to keep kids off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off hours of school. Yeah, they had their playgrounds within the schools, but those were closed when school was not open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first Navy jet came to Larsen Park in 1958. It was during the Cold War and people were obsessed with going to the moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 1: \u003c/strong>In October 1957, the world entered the Space Age. At that time, a multistage rocket took off from Russia – Sputnik 1.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 2: \u003c/strong>More and more teenagers are giving up rock and roll for Rocket Rolls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>People want to go to the moon, and so it becomes a very popular kind of thing that people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Space exploration was a national obsession. But you know, San Francisco, it had to approach the trend a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>There was surplus jet down at Moffat Field in Mountain View and that it could be had for a song. It just had to be brought to San Francisco. So that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing. Our kids were going to learn, you know, the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to forget that back then, San Francisco was a Navy town. The city was surrounded by Naval stations and there were jets like this one in playgrounds in Bayview, Sunnyvale and San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as any parent knows, kids are hard on stuff. Even military grade materials were no match for their grubby little hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>About every 10 years these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The \u003cem>second\u003c/em> jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “shark in the park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion eight years later, in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They then towed the jet two and a half miles northeast … going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And there it stayed, delighting generations of children … for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock:\u003c/strong> When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety, but as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first two planes were propped up, with ladders to climb into the cockpits. Kids would crawl on the wings, fall off and break arms and legs. And, the metal was sharp — many a kid got a nasty gash playing on the jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Not only that but it was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children. It was decided in 1993 to remove the last of the three jets. And so we were without a jet for a very long time in this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After 22 jetless years, Larsen Park got an all new playground in 2015, one complete with a play structure that looks like a jet. It may not be the \u003cem>real\u003c/em> thing, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time the shark in the park was removed, it was a hunk of junk. The wings were gone, the nose ripped off and it was covered in graffiti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>My last memory of it is being like a skeleton. So I would hope that it was maybe fixed a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was in that forlorn state that Aaron, our question asker, last saw the plane. Until I met up with him at the Pacific Coast Air Museum to show him what had become of it. That’s coming up, after this short break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron Van Lieu has always wondered what happened to the jet in San Francisco’s Larsen Park that made such an impression on him as a child. And it turns out, its new home isn’t too far away, at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>OK, we ready?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I guess so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron and I meet up at the museum and hop in a golf cart for a quick tour with Janet Doto, an Airforce veteran and volunteer here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>These are the two top gun aircraft, the F-14 Tomcat and then the F-18 Viper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>The Tomcat was one of my favorite jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Dotto:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a beautiful jet. My favorite’s the F4, but yeah, I’m partial. 23 years in the Air Force, you can’t love a navy aircraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum is a small but mighty operation. Almost all outdoors, they have 37 restored aircraft. One plane fought in WWII, another was a first responder to the 911 attacks and of course, parked out on the tarmac they’ve got the Shark in the Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>And there she is, the F-8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>This one right here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s the one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Whoa!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Is it how you remember it looking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Yeah, very much. Yeah, the canopy, it actually looks bigger than I remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s probably because there’s more of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This F-8 jet is the very one that generations of San Francisco kids played on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>Aaron, okay, I’m Jim Mattison. I’m the crew chief. And I’m proud to say I’m responsible for how this came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim is also an Air Force veteran and volunteer. But his memories of the Shark in the Park go way back to when he used to be stuck in traffic on 19th Avenue, commuting to Daly City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I look over there, and I say, What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible. And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim and his team have lovingly restored this 1956 F-8. The paint scheme is mostly gray with accents of red and navy blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors. Why? Because that was the last squadron it flew out of. And this was such an amazing paint scheme, I saw that and thought, I know what I want to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Navy basically begged the museum to take the plane. San Francisco officials wanted the dangerous eyesore gone, especially because by the 90s, the Navy’s presence in the Bay Area had waned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>They got a big crane and a low boy truck. Dug it out of the sand, took it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And like so many jets before it, put it on a truck and drove it up to Santa Rosa\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And then just like a model airplane, put it all back together. My teammate, he was working on the belly. And every once in a while, he’s busy banging and drilling holes. He’d get a face full of Larson Park sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum initially didn’t want to take this plane, but now, it’s one of the most popular attractions. Many visitors who remember playing on the F-8 as kids never knew much about what the jet did before it became playground equipment. That history is something Jim is passionate about sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>This was designed as a supersonic day fighter for the Navy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It would land on incredibly short runways … just 500 feet … on floating aircraft carriers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And it was fast. Very maneuverable and the pilots loved flying it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>I’m curious, Aaron, what do you think now that you’ve seen it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>There’s been a rush and flush of emotions and and memories, you know. I’m on top of the world being able to see it again, really. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And if you remember playing on this jet and have always wondered what happened to it … the Pacific Coast Air Museum is waiting for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can still play on some real Navy equipment if you go to Lincoln and 45th Avenue Playground in Golden Gate Park. There’s a blue boat there that was donated by the Navy … and it’s the real deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are you loving having more Bay Curious episodes in your podcast feed? If so, you can get even more Bay Curious in your life via the Bay Curious newsletter! Head to our website to sign up. As always, at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BC is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Cleared for takeoff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When Dennis O’Neill was a kid growing up in the Outer Sunset neighborhood of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a>, his world largely consisted of several blocks to either side of his home. In one direction was his school, Saint Cecilia’s, and in the other was Carl Larsen Park, which had all the usual fun and games plus something a little extra special — a real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was fantastic, I have to say,” O’Neill said. “I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And he’s certainly not the only one. Every time a picture of the Larsen Park plane gets posted to history groups on Facebook, the comments blow up with hundreds of people fondly remembering playing on the jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That was a meeting place, after school,” O’Neill remembered. “‘Meet at the airplane.’ That was common. And when you started getting girlfriends or hanging out with girls, that was a safe place to hang out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each kid who played in Larsen Park remembers \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/larsen_park_jets.php\">“their plane” clearly\u003c/a>, but over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975 — and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane our \u003ca href=\"http://www.baycurious.org\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, played on when he was little.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s some of my earliest memories,” said Van Lieu, who thinks he was 5 for 6. “My brother, dad and I we [went] there in the late 80s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067017\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067017\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-02-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks up at the Vought F-8 Crusader with Janet Doto at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Van Lieu remembers stopping at the park with his dad and brother as a treat after a Saturday morning spent going to open houses with his dad, who was a realtor. The jet was the kids’ reward for behaving.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved, and hide and seek,” Van Lieu reminisced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But despite these fond memories, Aaron also remembers watching the jet slowly fall apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067018\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12067018 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-03-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aaron Van Lieu looks at a display showing photos of the Vought F-8 Crusader from when it was located at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco, and its removal from the park at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and disappearing,” Van Lieu said. “And then, eventually, it was kind of like this skeleton.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then one day it was gone. Aaron has spent the better part of 30 years wondering where it landed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He wants to know: “What happened to the jet and why did it get taken out — aside from being covered in graffiti? I just wanna know where it went from there.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How did a Navy jet end up in Larsen Park in the first place?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park opened in 1926 after Danish immigrant and Tivoli Cafe owner Carl Larsen donated the land. At the time, the concept of a playground was fairly new. \u003ca href=\"https://savingplaces.org/stories/how-we-came-to-play-the-history-of-playgrounds/\">They came into fashion at the turn of the century \u003c/a>when people started to realize that children weren’t just mini adults, but developing beings that learned through play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off-hours of school,” said Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days, every park had a Recreation Director who kept play equipment in their office, organized games and kept an eye on the kids when they were at the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076067\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076067\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1254\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-160x100.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-03-KQED-1536x963.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Children play on the first Larsen Park jet circa 1964. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The first jet came to Larsen Park in 1958.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That period is called the jet age because we have rockets being developed,” Pollock said. “People want to go to the moon, and people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pollock said even back then, San Francisco didn’t want to be like everywhere else. The general manager of Rec and Park at the time heard that there were surplus jets at \u003ca href=\"https://www.moffettfieldmuseum.org/\">Moffett Field \u003c/a>in Mountain View.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing,” Pollock said. “Our kids were going to learn the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took the engine out of the jet, put it on a truck and dragged it up the freeway to the park with a California Highway Patrol escort. But once in the park, kids were hard on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076061\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076061\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1387\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-160x111.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260311-Jet-Playground-Archival-01-KQED-1536x1065.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The third and final Larsen Park jet, a 1956 F-8 Crusader, just before being removed from the park by Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteers. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Pacific Coast Air Museum)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“About every 10 years, these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The second jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “Shark in the Park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> article from Jan. 15, 1975, details its route:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo. … The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After landing at the Zoo, workers towed the jet two and a half miles northeast, going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park. And there it stayed for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the early 1990s, the F-8 Crusader had seen better days, and city leaders were learning more about the hazards to kids that it posed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070945\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070945\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-01-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The jet play structure that replaced the Vought F-8 Crusader at Carl Larsen Park in San Francisco on Jan. 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety,” Pollock said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“But as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue. It was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based, and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1993, city leaders had the Navy take the jet back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Larsen Park was without a jet for 22 years. In 2015, Larsen Park playground got a makeover, and community leaders insisted that the new play structure look like a jet plane. It’s no longer the real deal, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So, what happened to the Shark in the Park?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Jim Mattison used to commute from Santa Rosa to a job in Daly City. When he was idling in traffic on 19th Avenue, he’d look over at Larsen Park and see the plane.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I look over there, and I say, ‘What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible,’” Mattison remembered. “And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Retired from the workforce now, and an Air Force veteran, Mattison is a volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/\">Pacific Coast Air Museum (PCAM)\u003c/a>, where the Shark in the Park ended up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067090\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067090\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-04-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Jim Mattison, the Pacific Coast Air Museum volunteer responsible for restoring the Vought F-8 Crusader, talks to Aaron Van Lieu about the restoration process at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The way he tells it, San Francisco leaders were bugging the Navy to take the plane away because it was hazardous. Then, the Navy basically begged the museum to take the F-8 Crusader off their hands, promising that if they did, more aircraft might come the museum’s way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I like to say this was the catalyst,” Mattison said. “This started our association with the Navy. We developed a really close association because we started getting more and more assets. So that’s how we wound up becoming a museum, because we took this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, the museum has an impressive set of aircraft to visit at its open-air site. Some planes flew during War War II, Korea and Vietnam. They have a plane that was one of the first responders to the 9/11 attacks in New York City in 2001. Each volunteer has their favorites — often related to the branch of the military where they served.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“We are not a velvet rope air museum,” Mattison said. “We encourage people to touch them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the F-8 Crusader first arrived at the museum in 1993, a crew did a ton of work to reverse some of the things San Francisco Rec and Park had done to make the plane safer for kids. Park workers had filled the body of the plane with concrete to prevent kids from crawling through it — the PCAM crew had to jackhammer it out. And, the body of the plane had been buried in the sand — another safety measure to soften the landing when kids fell off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The entire section of the fuselage where the engine and all the internal components were was filled with sand,” said Guy Crow, a PCAM volunteer who worked on the plane when it first arrived. “About seven yards of sand we scraped, swept, shoveled, vacuumed. And it took us a couple of weeks to get it all out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That original team got the plane looking presentable and painted it with the telltale shark mouth for which it was known. They even had T-shirts made up with “Shark in the Park” on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But after more than two decades on display in the field at the museum, the weather had taken its toll on the F-8. Museum staff removed it from the display in 2012 and started revamping it once again in 2014.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We treat [them like] they’re full-size model airplanes,” Mattison said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mattison’s team removed still more sand, fixed the rudder and reskinned the wings and flaps, patched the fuselage and gave it a new paint job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12067024\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12067024\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-10-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Museum visitor Michael Wilkins reads about the F-5E Tiger II at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa on Dec. 12, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors,” Mattison said. “That was the last squadron it flew out of.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The F-8 Crusader was built in 1956 as a “supersonic dayfighter. It was fast. I think it was [one of] the first Navy aircraft that achieved a thousand miles an hour. It’s very maneuverable, and the pilots loved flying it,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Aaron Van Lieu, accompanied me on the trip to the museum. He remembered the jet immediately, although he said it looked bigger than he remembered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just a rush and flush of emotions and memories,” he said. “I’m on top of the world, being able to see it again. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>The Pacific Coast Air Museum is open \u003c/em>\u003ca href=\"https://pacificcoastairmuseum.org/visit-us/#hours_admin\">\u003cem>Thursday-Sunday, 10 a.m.-4 p.m.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem> It’s\u003c/em> \u003cem>located at the Charles M Schulz — Sonoma County Airport, off Airport Boulevard on the corner of N. Laughlin Road. and Becker Boulevard.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Things were different for San Francisco kids back in the 1960s and ’70s. For one, there was a lot more freedom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>In those days, there were no cars parked on the street for the most part. And there were kids everywhere. You know, there were six or seven kids on my block. My name’s Dennis O’Neill. I grew up on 18th Avenue from about 1963 to 1980.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Dennis and the other neighborhood kids spent a lot of time at nearby Larsen Park. It’s right on busy 19th Avenue at Vicente Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>We were seven or eight. And our parents, you know, allowed us to cross 19th Avenue, the highway, on a green light and go to the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Back then, every city park had a park director. They would organize games, keep an eye on the kids and maintain play equipment. But Larsen Park also had something that made it extra special. A real Navy jet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It felt like an actual jet landed in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And wow, was that jet beloved by the neighborhood kids!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis O’Neill: \u003c/strong>It was fantastic, I have to say. I still remember. I’m 64 years old. I remember specifically sitting in that cockpit and being a pilot, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Our question asker this week, Aaron Van Lieu, also spent a lot of time at the plane in Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu:\u003c/strong> It’s some of my earliest memories. My brother, dad and I were going there in the late ’80s, like ’88-’89. So I was like 4, 5, 6.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over a period of 35 years, there were actually three different Navy jets in that park. The last one was placed in 1975, and the nose of it was painted with shark’s teeth. It was there the longest and was known to many as “The Shark in the Park.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s the plane Aaron remembers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Playing tag, but there’s a jet involved. And hide and seek and you know, just running around it. My dad, you know, trying to explain what certain things were because for a long time the canopy was there, and you could see inside of it, and it had all the gauges and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>But Aaron also remembers how the jet slowly started falling apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Little by little, the wings and parts of the jet just started falling off and going and disappearing. So, and then eventually it was like kind of like this, like skeleton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And then, one day, it was gone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Aaron has spent decades wondering what happened to that jet that he loved so much. He even credits it, in small part, with his love of aviation and a short stint as a flight attendant. He wants to know:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>What happened to the jet, and why did it get taken out, aside from being covered in graffiti? So I just wanna know where it went from there, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And, I want to know who thought a jet in a playground was a good idea in the first place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz, always the pragmatic one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A real fighter jet has to be one of the most expensive pieces of playground equipment ever!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So, I did a little math, and the plane cost about 2 million to build originally, which is nearly $24 million today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of pickleball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Our modern obsessions on display at the park are a little more mundane … and a lot less expensive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Pickleball sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The near constant pop and thwack of the very popular pickleball courts has been the soundtrack to Larsen Park since they opened in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I visited with Christopher Pollock, historian in residence for the San Francisco Recreation and Parks Department, to learn a little more about this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>So Carl L Larsen is a Danish immigrant who was a cafe owner in downtown San Francisco. He owned the Tivoli Cafe and he was quite a large landowner in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Larsen gave the city a parcel of land to create a park before this west side neighborhood was even fully built. The park opened in 1926. Bisected by Vicente Street, one side had tennis courts and playground equipment and the other side had an open field and a swimming pool, now called Sava Pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>He, as a developer, certainly had the vision that San Francisco was going to grow and that things would grow to be what they are today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>At this point, playgrounds were a fairly new idea. They only came into fashion in the early 1900s as a tool to keep kids off the streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Kids were getting into trouble because they didn’t have enough to do in off hours of school. Yeah, they had their playgrounds within the schools, but those were closed when school was not open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first Navy jet came to Larsen Park in 1958. It was during the Cold War and people were obsessed with going to the moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 1: \u003c/strong>In October 1957, the world entered the Space Age. At that time, a multistage rocket took off from Russia – Sputnik 1.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival video 2: \u003c/strong>More and more teenagers are giving up rock and roll for Rocket Rolls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>People want to go to the moon, and so it becomes a very popular kind of thing that people started designing playground equipment to look like jet planes and rockets and things like that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Space exploration was a national obsession. But you know, San Francisco, it had to approach the trend a little differently.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>There was surplus jet down at Moffat Field in Mountain View and that it could be had for a song. It just had to be brought to San Francisco. So that becomes our very first plaything in a playground, but it’s the real thing. Our kids were going to learn, you know, the real straight skinny on stuff, not some representation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to forget that back then, San Francisco was a Navy town. The city was surrounded by Naval stations and there were jets like this one in playgrounds in Bayview, Sunnyvale and San Leandro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as any parent knows, kids are hard on stuff. Even military grade materials were no match for their grubby little hands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>About every 10 years these jets had to be replaced because the kids wore them down so much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The \u003cem>second\u003c/em> jet in Larsen Park came from the Alameda Naval Base and was placed in the park in 1967. But the longest tenured jet — the “shark in the park” our question asker loved — arrived in dramatic fashion eight years later, in 1975.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>A marine helicopter carrying a surplus Navy fighter in its sling, flew under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday morning — after it had cruised under the Bay Bridge. The old F-8 Crusader was taken from Alameda Naval Air Station to the parking lot of the San Francisco Zoo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They then towed the jet two and a half miles northeast … going up Sloat Boulevard and down 19th Avenue to Larsen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newspaper read: \u003c/strong>The engineless plane will be used, as was its predecessor, as a giant toy in which San Francisco children may take flights of imagination.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And there it stayed, delighting generations of children … for 18 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock:\u003c/strong> When this first started, people weren’t thinking so much about safety, but as the years went by, safety became a much bigger issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The first two planes were propped up, with ladders to climb into the cockpits. Kids would crawl on the wings, fall off and break arms and legs. And, the metal was sharp — many a kid got a nasty gash playing on the jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/strong>Not only that but it was found that the paint on these jets was lead-based and it was being discovered in later years that this was toxic to children. It was decided in 1993 to remove the last of the three jets. And so we were without a jet for a very long time in this park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After 22 jetless years, Larsen Park got an all new playground in 2015, one complete with a play structure that looks like a jet. It may not be the \u003cem>real\u003c/em> thing, but kids still like it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the time the shark in the park was removed, it was a hunk of junk. The wings were gone, the nose ripped off and it was covered in graffiti.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>My last memory of it is being like a skeleton. So I would hope that it was maybe fixed a little bit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was in that forlorn state that Aaron, our question asker, last saw the plane. Until I met up with him at the Pacific Coast Air Museum to show him what had become of it. That’s coming up, after this short break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron Van Lieu has always wondered what happened to the jet in San Francisco’s Larsen Park that made such an impression on him as a child. And it turns out, its new home isn’t too far away, at the Pacific Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>OK, we ready?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I guess so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>All right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Aaron and I meet up at the museum and hop in a golf cart for a quick tour with Janet Doto, an Airforce veteran and volunteer here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>These are the two top gun aircraft, the F-14 Tomcat and then the F-18 Viper.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>The Tomcat was one of my favorite jets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Dotto:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a beautiful jet. My favorite’s the F4, but yeah, I’m partial. 23 years in the Air Force, you can’t love a navy aircraft.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum is a small but mighty operation. Almost all outdoors, they have 37 restored aircraft. One plane fought in WWII, another was a first responder to the 911 attacks and of course, parked out on the tarmac they’ve got the Shark in the Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>And there she is, the F-8.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>This one right here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s the one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Whoa!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Is it how you remember it looking?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>Yeah, very much. Yeah, the canopy, it actually looks bigger than I remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Janet Doto: \u003c/strong>That’s probably because there’s more of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Laughter\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This F-8 jet is the very one that generations of San Francisco kids played on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>Aaron, okay, I’m Jim Mattison. I’m the crew chief. And I’m proud to say I’m responsible for how this came out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim is also an Air Force veteran and volunteer. But his memories of the Shark in the Park go way back to when he used to be stuck in traffic on 19th Avenue, commuting to Daly City.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I look over there, and I say, What’s the city gonna do to that piece of junk? That looks terrible. And it’s just the irony that 30 years later, guess what I’m doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Jim and his team have lovingly restored this 1956 F-8. The paint scheme is mostly gray with accents of red and navy blue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>I chose to paint it in the Marine Corps colors. Why? Because that was the last squadron it flew out of. And this was such an amazing paint scheme, I saw that and thought, I know what I want to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Navy basically begged the museum to take the plane. San Francisco officials wanted the dangerous eyesore gone, especially because by the 90s, the Navy’s presence in the Bay Area had waned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>They got a big crane and a low boy truck. Dug it out of the sand, took it apart.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And like so many jets before it, put it on a truck and drove it up to Santa Rosa\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And then just like a model airplane, put it all back together. My teammate, he was working on the belly. And every once in a while, he’s busy banging and drilling holes. He’d get a face full of Larson Park sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The museum initially didn’t want to take this plane, but now, it’s one of the most popular attractions. Many visitors who remember playing on the F-8 as kids never knew much about what the jet did before it became playground equipment. That history is something Jim is passionate about sharing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>This was designed as a supersonic day fighter for the Navy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It would land on incredibly short runways … just 500 feet … on floating aircraft carriers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Mattison: \u003c/strong>And it was fast. Very maneuverable and the pilots loved flying it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>I’m curious, Aaron, what do you think now that you’ve seen it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Aaron Van Lieu: \u003c/strong>There’s been a rush and flush of emotions and and memories, you know. I’m on top of the world being able to see it again, really. ‘Cause I’ve always wondered what happened to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And if you remember playing on this jet and have always wondered what happened to it … the Pacific Coast Air Museum is waiting for you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You can still play on some real Navy equipment if you go to Lincoln and 45th Avenue Playground in Golden Gate Park. There’s a blue boat there that was donated by the Navy … and it’s the real deal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Are you loving having more Bay Curious episodes in your podcast feed? If so, you can get even more Bay Curious in your life via the Bay Curious newsletter! Head to our website to sign up. As always, at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BC is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Cleared for takeoff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long before sleek \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11933882/beyond-vaccines-biotech-is-booming-in-the-bay-area-despite-a-cooling-economy\">biotech campuses\u003c/a> and venture capital arrived, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/south-san-francisco\">South San Francisco\u003c/a> had a very different identity. For much of the 20th century, it absorbed the Bay Area’s mess — industries that were noisy, dirty, politically inconvenient, or simply unwanted elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Slaughterhouses. Steel mills. Shipyards. Freight terminals. Businesses that needed elbow room and cheap land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1923, the city declared its role in giant white letters on a hillside above town: “South San Francisco The Industrial City.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“South San Francisco, like Emeryville, were industrial suburbs,” said Richard Walker, a professor emeritus of economic and urban geography at the University of California, Berkeley. “These were set up expressly to shelter industry from taxes, from protest, from labor, and they worked very effectively.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Town councils limited housing, zoned big swaths for heavy industry, and kept taxes and rules light. The idea was to park loud, polluting businesses far from residential neighborhoods — and make them easy to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12075369\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12075369\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1473\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aerial view of South San Francisco’s Sign Hill, circa 1930. \u003ccite>(Courtesy South San Francisco Public Library Local History Collection)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Beyond town borders, the Bay Area as a whole was comfortable with risk and experimentation, a mindset that goes all the way back to the Gold Rush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You had a lot of young people, a lot of skilled workers, and a lot of capital,” Walker said of the Bay Area. “So this was an intellectual center, an industrial center, a capitalist center because of Bank of America.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A risk-tolerant region meets a risky science\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Those conditions mattered when a new science arrived in the 1970s. Biotechnology required not just smart people and money, but a tolerance for uncertainty and perceived risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists were learning how to cut and paste genes — editing code, but for living things. The technique, called recombinant DNA, made it possible to insert genetic instructions into bacteria and harness them to manufacture human hormones and medicines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days, that power was both thrilling and unsettling. Scientists worried that engineered microbes could behave unpredictably — escape the lab, spread through air or water, or create entirely new biological risks they didn’t yet know how to contain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concerns were serious enough that, in 1975, many molecular biologists took an extraordinary step: they voluntarily halted their own research. About 150 scientists gathered at an oceanside retreat in Pacific Grove called Asilomar. For four days, they debated the dangers, negotiated boundaries, and ultimately agreed on a set of guidelines for conducting recombinant DNA research safely.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Public backlash\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But then the public learned about what was happening inside labs. To some, tinkering with DNA felt apocalyptic because scientists might create new life they couldn’t control. News headlines leaned into worst-case scenarios: superbugs and lab accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the era of the Andromeda Strain,” said Robin Wolfe Scheffler, historian of biology and medicine at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']Trust in science and government was low. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11861810/no-the-tuskegee-study-is-not-the-top-reason-some-black-americans-question-the-covid-19-vaccine\">Tuskegee syphilis study\u003c/a> had recently been exposed, revealing profound abuses. Americans were reckoning with the health impacts of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11617827/this-vietnam-paratrooper-was-exposed-to-agent-orange-today-he-lives-with-parkinsons\">Agent Orange\u003c/a>. Nuclear anxiety lingered after the meltdown at \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/three/\">Three Mile Island\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Backlash spread quickly. Cities began debating whether they should regulate or ban genetic engineering. In Cambridge, Mass., officials considered outlawing it altogether. In Berkeley and San Francisco, protesters marched, chanting slogans like, “We will not be cloned.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For researchers hoping to commercialize their discoveries, this created a bottleneck. Biotech startups needed large laboratories, sewer hookups, industrial equipment, and stable local rules. They needed places without residential neighbors ready to revolt. A place like South San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Proof of concept\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>By the mid-1970s, South San Francisco’s leaders were actively searching for a new economic base. The steel mills were mostly gone. Meatpacking was shrinking. Shipping was slowing. When a young venture capitalist named Bob Swanson arrived with an idea that scared much of the country, they didn’t recoil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swanson was newly laid off from a venture capital firm and living in San Francisco, broke and uncertain about his future. Convinced biotechnology was poised to take off, he cold-called a scruffy, long-haired biochemist named Herbert Boyer at the University of California, San Francisco, who agreed to a 20-minute meeting on a Friday afternoon. The casual meeting was so successful that they decided to pool $1,000 and start a new company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074375\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074375\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Genentech headquarters at 1 DNA Way in South San Francisco on Feb. 23, 2026. South San Francisco was historically an industrial area, housing shipyards, slaughterhouses and a steel mill. Now it’s a biotech hub. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Swanson floated the name Herbob — for Herb and Bob. Boyer vetoed it and suggested Genentech, short for Genetic Engineering and Technology. More marketable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They couldn’t afford office space in San Francisco. Plus, keeping a private company inside UCSF’s public labs raised thorny questions about who owned the science. (Those tensions would later surface in a long-running patent dispute between UCSF and Genentech tied to some of the earliest recombinant DNA research, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/1999/11/genentech-pays-off-ucsf/\">a case\u003c/a> the two sides settled in 1999.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They landed in South San Francisco. Genentech’s first office sat off East Grand Avenue, next door to a pornography studio. There were few residents to complain, and plenty of industrial space suitable for fermentation tanks and pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the national debate over genetic engineering raged, Genentech’s scientists worked quietly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1977, they produced the first synthetic human insulin using genetically engineered bacteria, a breakthrough that transformed diabetes care and proved biotechnology could work at scale. Until then, people with diabetes relied on insulin extracted from cows and pigs: lifesaving, but imperfect. Genentech’s insulin was identical to the human version.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success triggered a cascade. Former Genentech scientists founded new companies nearby to develop drugs for HIV and cancer. Warehouses filled. A cluster emerged. Today, South San Francisco is one of the most valuable square miles in American science, with more than 250 biotechnology companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today we head to South San Francisco. You pass it when you’re driving north from the airport along Highway 101– there are giant white letters carved into a hillside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They read: “The Industrial City.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faris Alikhan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It used to be meatpacking plants and steel foundries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Faris Alikhan grew up in South San Francisco, went to high school there — and about half his graduating class went on to work in biotech. His mom did too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faris Alikhan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why did it become this hub of biotechnology? People move here from all around the world to work in that one industry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Biotechnology is a process. Scientists take a living cell, like yeast or bacteria, and program them to make medicine. They grow those cells in massive tanks — like a brewery — and harvest what the cells produce to make vaccines, antibiotics, and cancer treatments. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are more than 250 biotech companies in South San Francisco, including Genentech. Faris wondered why \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and not closer to an educational hub, like Stanford or Berkeley? How and why did this stretch of waterfront become the birthplace of biotechnology? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Turns out he’s not alone in wondering this. Today’s question won a public voting round on \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED health correspondent Lesley McClurg headed to South San Francisco to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When you drive down DNA way in South San Francisco it’s a little like a science fiction set. Shuttle buses glide between glass towers. Doctoral students sip matcha with CEOs. Researchers slip in workouts between experiments. Every amenity is available inside a self-contained city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Low rumble of a freight train\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But 100 years ago this stretch of land was nicknamed the smokestack capital of the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Peninsula\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Peninsula\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… Freight terminals. Shipyards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>Archival clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> By July 1944 nearly 16,000 men and women were employed in the shipyards all playing a role in the country’s victory.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a dirty, loud, industrial area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> South San Francisco, like Emeryville, they were industrial suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Walker is a professor emeritus of economic and urban geography at UC Berkeley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These were these were set up expressly to shelter industry from taxes, from protest, from labor and they worked very effectively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early and mid-20th century, local governments actively steered factories, warehouses, and refineries into these fringe cities. Town councils zoned big swaths of land for heavy industry. They limited housing, and kept taxes and rules light. The idea was to park the loud, dirty stuff far from residential neighborhoods — and make it easy for companies to operate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beyond the town’s borders, Walker says the Bay Area as a region was also unusually comfortable with risk and experimentation, a mindset that goes all the way back to the Gold Rush.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had a lot of young people, a lot of skilled workers, and a lot of capital. So this was an intellectual center, an industrial center, a capitalist center because of Bank of America, lots of capital available through San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of that mattered when a new science came along in the 70s. Biotech needed smart people and money — AND it needed places willing to tolerate risk. And that’s where South San Francisco stood apart. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robin Wolfe Scheffler is a historian of biology and medicine at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or MIT. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A community that was very used to dealing with potentially hazardous or unpleasant and industrial neighbors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And those industries were already in flux. The steel mills were mostly gone. Meatpacking was shrinking. Shipping was slowing. South San Francisco had space, infrastructure that was up for grabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For people seeking to work with recombinant DNA in the late 1970s, that was actually perfect. Because many of the cities next to academic centers of molecular biology research were very concerned about its potential health hazards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Genetic research was controversial. And in some cities, like Berkely or Palo Alto, very unwelcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NewsHour clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The hottest scientific controversy since man learned to split the atom is now raging over a new branch of biology called genetic engineering. This tampering with the most basic ingredients of life raises moral and ethical problems as grave as nuclear fission did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Scientists had just learned how to cut and paste genes — kind of like editing code, but for living things. This technique, called recombinant DNA, allows researchers to use special enzymes to slip pieces of genetic material into bacteria. Suddenly it seemed possible to rewrite the instructions inside living things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was both exciting and terrifying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NewsHour clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might be a new drug of tremendous value in fighting disease, or it might be a new virus terribly dangerous to man. Some scientists want the research banned, and a large number want it controlled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even molecular biologists were spooked by the possibilities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The scientific community was divided over how hazardous this potential technique was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were so worried that they called a halt to their own work – and decided to convene a meeting. In 1975, about 150 scientists gathered in California at an oceanside retreat in Pacific Grove called Asilomar. For four days they argued, negotiated, and finally agreed on a set of guidelines for doing recombinant DNA research safely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then the public learned about what was happening inside labs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the era of the Andromeda strain, this is the era of Three Mile Island, this is a a moment when overall there’s a huge amount of social concern over the impact of technology and science on the environment. and trust in the institutions of science and technology to regulate themselves is at a low ebb.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Americans had learned that the government had secretly let Black men suffer and die in the Tuskegee syphilis study. They were also just beginning to reckon with the health fallout of Agent Orange from the Vietnam War. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To some, tinkering with DNA felt apocalyptic. People worried engineered bacteria could escape the lab — through the air, water, or sewers — and make people sick. Others feared scientists were crossing an ethical line, creating new life they couldn’t control. Headlines leaned into worst-case scenarios: superbugs and lab accidents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By 1975, there is a national conversation about what regulations should be placed on the use of recombinant DNA technology, and individual municipalities begin to consider whether or not they can regulate it as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Cambridge, Massachusetts, city officials considered banning the new technology altogether. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The debate over the new experiments has filled over into the streets. “We science for the people are here to try to bring the issues of this controversy to the public. To the people. Because the people are at risk and will benefit from the experiments that are being done with recombinant DNA.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The same was true in San Francisco and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People marching down the street chanting, we will not be cloned. And so this is a concern for anybody seeking to move outside of an academic laboratory to set up a fledgling biotechnology company because these companies need laboratories, they need space to work. They want to connect to sewers, they want to have the assurance that they’re going to be able to sort of operate on a stable basis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cue South San Francisco. It’s a community that was very used to dealing with potentially hazardous or unpleasant products. Plus, the 1970s were a time of deindustrialization and so…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city leaders were very concerned to find a new economic base.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when a young venture capitalist came knocking with an idea that could revive South San Francisco – city leaders welcomed him.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – a behemoth is born. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 1970s, South San Francisco leaders were concerned about the dwindling industries that propped up its tax base. Little did they know the next big thing was waiting at their doorstep. KQED’s Lesley McClurg.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time Bob Swanson was an unemployed MIT graduate living in San Francisco. He’d just been laid off by the venture capital firm Kleiner and Perkins. According to his wife Judy he was living on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He had no extra money, and he was really scared that what am I going to do next? I don’t want to be a failure in life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He started reading about biotechnology. And was quickly convinced this was the moment it could take off. So, he called a scruffy long haired biochemist named Herb Boyer at UCSF, who agreed to a 20 minute meeting on a Friday afternoon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bob showed up in his you know three piece vests outfit and and they hit it off. They decided to go get a beer afterwards. So the two of them decided to put what money they had which was five hundred dollars each to create a company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bob wanted to call it Herbob. For Herb and Bob. Herb thought that was a terrible idea. His suggestion was Genentech for Genetic Engineering and Technology. They couldn’t afford office space in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And keeping a private company inside UCSF’s public labs raised thorny questions about who owned the science. Those tensions would later surface in a long-running patent dispute between UCSF and Genentech tied to some of the earliest recombinant DNA research, a case the two sides settled in 1999. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Long before the lawyers got involved, Bob looked south of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He rented the most inexpensive office space that he could rent, which was in South San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The offices were in a nondescript building off East Grand Avenue.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South San Francisco was nothing then really, and they were welcoming, you know, of any idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Genentech’s new office was next door to a pornography studio. Because there were so few residential areas – nobody griped about what was in their backyard. And most importantly — there were plenty of empty warehouses large enough to handle vats, pipes, and fermentation columns that are key to biotechnology.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, as the nation argued over the risks of genetic engineering. Scientists at Genentech were quietly at work in South San Francisco, on the verge of transforming diabetes care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NBC News clip from 1977: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Scientists around the country today were paying close attention to reports from California that genetic engineering in a laboratory may be able to produce an insulin gene that could have all kinds of effects.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until then, people with diabetes relied on insulin taken from cow and pig pancreases. It kept them alive, but it wasn’t an exact match for human insulin and could trigger immune reactions. Genentech made the first synthetic human insulin — identical to what our bodies produce, using genetically engineered bacteria. Production began in 1978. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>NBC News, 1977:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genetic engineering has become big business\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Within a decade, companies founded by former Genentech scientists began filling nearby warehouses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>NBC News, 1977: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd entirely new firms have emerged solely devoted to genetic engineering.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A cluster formed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And over time, South San Francisco became one of the most valuable square miles in American science.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the years that followed, work done here led to HIV drugs that changed the course of the AIDS epidemic. And cancer treatments were developed that are now standard care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While much of the country hesitated, South San Francisco made room. What had been noisy, polluted, and overlooked proved well suited for a risky new science — one that grew into a multibillion-dollar industry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED Health Correspondent Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This question was part of a Bay Curious voting round. Did you know we have a new one up on our website every month? This month, here’s what’s up for consideration…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is there truly a taco truck on every corner in San Francisco and San Mateo?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why are there huge fans over the tunnels near the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s the story with the abandoned cop car in front of the airport off of 101? Everyone knows no actual cop is in it, so what’s the scoop with leaving there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voting takes just a click — no registering or drama, I promise. Do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can become a member today, and enjoy all sorts of nice benefits — the biggest one though. Those warm fuzzies you get knowing you support shows like ours. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katherine Monahan, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long before sleek \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11933882/beyond-vaccines-biotech-is-booming-in-the-bay-area-despite-a-cooling-economy\">biotech campuses\u003c/a> and venture capital arrived, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/south-san-francisco\">South San Francisco\u003c/a> had a very different identity. For much of the 20th century, it absorbed the Bay Area’s mess — industries that were noisy, dirty, politically inconvenient, or simply unwanted elsewhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Slaughterhouses. Steel mills. Shipyards. Freight terminals. Businesses that needed elbow room and cheap land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1923, the city declared its role in giant white letters on a hillside above town: “South San Francisco The Industrial City.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“South San Francisco, like Emeryville, were industrial suburbs,” said Richard Walker, a professor emeritus of economic and urban geography at the University of California, Berkeley. “These were set up expressly to shelter industry from taxes, from protest, from labor, and they worked very effectively.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Town councils limited housing, zoned big swaths for heavy industry, and kept taxes and rules light. The idea was to park loud, polluting businesses far from residential neighborhoods — and make them easy to operate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12075369\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12075369\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1473\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260304-South-San-Francisco-Archival-01-KQED-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Aerial view of South San Francisco’s Sign Hill, circa 1930. \u003ccite>(Courtesy South San Francisco Public Library Local History Collection)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Beyond town borders, the Bay Area as a whole was comfortable with risk and experimentation, a mindset that goes all the way back to the Gold Rush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You had a lot of young people, a lot of skilled workers, and a lot of capital,” Walker said of the Bay Area. “So this was an intellectual center, an industrial center, a capitalist center because of Bank of America.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A risk-tolerant region meets a risky science\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Those conditions mattered when a new science arrived in the 1970s. Biotechnology required not just smart people and money, but a tolerance for uncertainty and perceived risk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Scientists were learning how to cut and paste genes — editing code, but for living things. The technique, called recombinant DNA, made it possible to insert genetic instructions into bacteria and harness them to manufacture human hormones and medicines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early days, that power was both thrilling and unsettling. Scientists worried that engineered microbes could behave unpredictably — escape the lab, spread through air or water, or create entirely new biological risks they didn’t yet know how to contain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concerns were serious enough that, in 1975, many molecular biologists took an extraordinary step: they voluntarily halted their own research. About 150 scientists gathered at an oceanside retreat in Pacific Grove called Asilomar. For four days, they debated the dangers, negotiated boundaries, and ultimately agreed on a set of guidelines for conducting recombinant DNA research safely.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Public backlash\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>But then the public learned about what was happening inside labs. To some, tinkering with DNA felt apocalyptic because scientists might create new life they couldn’t control. News headlines leaned into worst-case scenarios: superbugs and lab accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the era of the Andromeda Strain,” said Robin Wolfe Scheffler, historian of biology and medicine at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Trust in science and government was low. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11861810/no-the-tuskegee-study-is-not-the-top-reason-some-black-americans-question-the-covid-19-vaccine\">Tuskegee syphilis study\u003c/a> had recently been exposed, revealing profound abuses. Americans were reckoning with the health impacts of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11617827/this-vietnam-paratrooper-was-exposed-to-agent-orange-today-he-lives-with-parkinsons\">Agent Orange\u003c/a>. Nuclear anxiety lingered after the meltdown at \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/films/three/\">Three Mile Island\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Backlash spread quickly. Cities began debating whether they should regulate or ban genetic engineering. In Cambridge, Mass., officials considered outlawing it altogether. In Berkeley and San Francisco, protesters marched, chanting slogans like, “We will not be cloned.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For researchers hoping to commercialize their discoveries, this created a bottleneck. Biotech startups needed large laboratories, sewer hookups, industrial equipment, and stable local rules. They needed places without residential neighbors ready to revolt. A place like South San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Proof of concept\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>By the mid-1970s, South San Francisco’s leaders were actively searching for a new economic base. The steel mills were mostly gone. Meatpacking was shrinking. Shipping was slowing. When a young venture capitalist named Bob Swanson arrived with an idea that scared much of the country, they didn’t recoil.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swanson was newly laid off from a venture capital firm and living in San Francisco, broke and uncertain about his future. Convinced biotechnology was poised to take off, he cold-called a scruffy, long-haired biochemist named Herbert Boyer at the University of California, San Francisco, who agreed to a 20-minute meeting on a Friday afternoon. The casual meeting was so successful that they decided to pool $1,000 and start a new company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074375\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074375\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SOUTHSF00325_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Genentech headquarters at 1 DNA Way in South San Francisco on Feb. 23, 2026. South San Francisco was historically an industrial area, housing shipyards, slaughterhouses and a steel mill. Now it’s a biotech hub. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Swanson floated the name Herbob — for Herb and Bob. Boyer vetoed it and suggested Genentech, short for Genetic Engineering and Technology. More marketable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They couldn’t afford office space in San Francisco. Plus, keeping a private company inside UCSF’s public labs raised thorny questions about who owned the science. (Those tensions would later surface in a long-running patent dispute between UCSF and Genentech tied to some of the earliest recombinant DNA research, \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/1999/11/genentech-pays-off-ucsf/\">a case\u003c/a> the two sides settled in 1999.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They landed in South San Francisco. Genentech’s first office sat off East Grand Avenue, next door to a pornography studio. There were few residents to complain, and plenty of industrial space suitable for fermentation tanks and pipes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As the national debate over genetic engineering raged, Genentech’s scientists worked quietly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1977, they produced the first synthetic human insulin using genetically engineered bacteria, a breakthrough that transformed diabetes care and proved biotechnology could work at scale. Until then, people with diabetes relied on insulin extracted from cows and pigs: lifesaving, but imperfect. Genentech’s insulin was identical to the human version.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The success triggered a cascade. Former Genentech scientists founded new companies nearby to develop drugs for HIV and cancer. Warehouses filled. A cluster emerged. Today, South San Francisco is one of the most valuable square miles in American science, with more than 250 biotechnology companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today we head to South San Francisco. You pass it when you’re driving north from the airport along Highway 101– there are giant white letters carved into a hillside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They read: “The Industrial City.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faris Alikhan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It used to be meatpacking plants and steel foundries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Faris Alikhan grew up in South San Francisco, went to high school there — and about half his graduating class went on to work in biotech. His mom did too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faris Alikhan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why did it become this hub of biotechnology? People move here from all around the world to work in that one industry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Biotechnology is a process. Scientists take a living cell, like yeast or bacteria, and program them to make medicine. They grow those cells in massive tanks — like a brewery — and harvest what the cells produce to make vaccines, antibiotics, and cancer treatments. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are more than 250 biotech companies in South San Francisco, including Genentech. Faris wondered why \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and not closer to an educational hub, like Stanford or Berkeley? How and why did this stretch of waterfront become the birthplace of biotechnology? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Turns out he’s not alone in wondering this. Today’s question won a public voting round on \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED health correspondent Lesley McClurg headed to South San Francisco to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When you drive down DNA way in South San Francisco it’s a little like a science fiction set. Shuttle buses glide between glass towers. Doctoral students sip matcha with CEOs. Researchers slip in workouts between experiments. Every amenity is available inside a self-contained city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Low rumble of a freight train\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But 100 years ago this stretch of land was nicknamed the smokestack capital of the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Peninsula\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Peninsula\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">… Freight terminals. Shipyards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>Archival clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> By July 1944 nearly 16,000 men and women were employed in the shipyards all playing a role in the country’s victory.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a dirty, loud, industrial area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> South San Francisco, like Emeryville, they were industrial suburbs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Walker is a professor emeritus of economic and urban geography at UC Berkeley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> These were these were set up expressly to shelter industry from taxes, from protest, from labor and they worked very effectively. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the early and mid-20th century, local governments actively steered factories, warehouses, and refineries into these fringe cities. Town councils zoned big swaths of land for heavy industry. They limited housing, and kept taxes and rules light. The idea was to park the loud, dirty stuff far from residential neighborhoods — and make it easy for companies to operate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Beyond the town’s borders, Walker says the Bay Area as a region was also unusually comfortable with risk and experimentation, a mindset that goes all the way back to the Gold Rush.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Richard Walker: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You had a lot of young people, a lot of skilled workers, and a lot of capital. So this was an intellectual center, an industrial center, a capitalist center because of Bank of America, lots of capital available through San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All of that mattered when a new science came along in the 70s. Biotech needed smart people and money — AND it needed places willing to tolerate risk. And that’s where South San Francisco stood apart. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Robin Wolfe Scheffler is a historian of biology and medicine at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or MIT. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A community that was very used to dealing with potentially hazardous or unpleasant and industrial neighbors. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And those industries were already in flux. The steel mills were mostly gone. Meatpacking was shrinking. Shipping was slowing. South San Francisco had space, infrastructure that was up for grabs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For people seeking to work with recombinant DNA in the late 1970s, that was actually perfect. Because many of the cities next to academic centers of molecular biology research were very concerned about its potential health hazards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Genetic research was controversial. And in some cities, like Berkely or Palo Alto, very unwelcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NewsHour clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The hottest scientific controversy since man learned to split the atom is now raging over a new branch of biology called genetic engineering. This tampering with the most basic ingredients of life raises moral and ethical problems as grave as nuclear fission did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Scientists had just learned how to cut and paste genes — kind of like editing code, but for living things. This technique, called recombinant DNA, allows researchers to use special enzymes to slip pieces of genetic material into bacteria. Suddenly it seemed possible to rewrite the instructions inside living things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was both exciting and terrifying. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NewsHour clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It might be a new drug of tremendous value in fighting disease, or it might be a new virus terribly dangerous to man. Some scientists want the research banned, and a large number want it controlled. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Even molecular biologists were spooked by the possibilities. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The scientific community was divided over how hazardous this potential technique was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were so worried that they called a halt to their own work – and decided to convene a meeting. In 1975, about 150 scientists gathered in California at an oceanside retreat in Pacific Grove called Asilomar. For four days they argued, negotiated, and finally agreed on a set of guidelines for doing recombinant DNA research safely.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then the public learned about what was happening inside labs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the era of the Andromeda strain, this is the era of Three Mile Island, this is a a moment when overall there’s a huge amount of social concern over the impact of technology and science on the environment. and trust in the institutions of science and technology to regulate themselves is at a low ebb.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Americans had learned that the government had secretly let Black men suffer and die in the Tuskegee syphilis study. They were also just beginning to reckon with the health fallout of Agent Orange from the Vietnam War. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To some, tinkering with DNA felt apocalyptic. People worried engineered bacteria could escape the lab — through the air, water, or sewers — and make people sick. Others feared scientists were crossing an ethical line, creating new life they couldn’t control. Headlines leaned into worst-case scenarios: superbugs and lab accidents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">By 1975, there is a national conversation about what regulations should be placed on the use of recombinant DNA technology, and individual municipalities begin to consider whether or not they can regulate it as well. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In Cambridge, Massachusetts, city officials considered banning the new technology altogether. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The debate over the new experiments has filled over into the streets. “We science for the people are here to try to bring the issues of this controversy to the public. To the people. Because the people are at risk and will benefit from the experiments that are being done with recombinant DNA.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The same was true in San Francisco and Berkeley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People marching down the street chanting, we will not be cloned. And so this is a concern for anybody seeking to move outside of an academic laboratory to set up a fledgling biotechnology company because these companies need laboratories, they need space to work. They want to connect to sewers, they want to have the assurance that they’re going to be able to sort of operate on a stable basis.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cue South San Francisco. It’s a community that was very used to dealing with potentially hazardous or unpleasant products. Plus, the 1970s were a time of deindustrialization and so…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robin Wolfe Scheffler: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The city leaders were very concerned to find a new economic base.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when a young venture capitalist came knocking with an idea that could revive South San Francisco – city leaders welcomed him.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – a behemoth is born. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the 1970s, South San Francisco leaders were concerned about the dwindling industries that propped up its tax base. Little did they know the next big thing was waiting at their doorstep. KQED’s Lesley McClurg.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time Bob Swanson was an unemployed MIT graduate living in San Francisco. He’d just been laid off by the venture capital firm Kleiner and Perkins. According to his wife Judy he was living on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He had no extra money, and he was really scared that what am I going to do next? I don’t want to be a failure in life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He started reading about biotechnology. And was quickly convinced this was the moment it could take off. So, he called a scruffy long haired biochemist named Herb Boyer at UCSF, who agreed to a 20 minute meeting on a Friday afternoon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bob showed up in his you know three piece vests outfit and and they hit it off. They decided to go get a beer afterwards. So the two of them decided to put what money they had which was five hundred dollars each to create a company.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bob wanted to call it Herbob. For Herb and Bob. Herb thought that was a terrible idea. His suggestion was Genentech for Genetic Engineering and Technology. They couldn’t afford office space in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And keeping a private company inside UCSF’s public labs raised thorny questions about who owned the science. Those tensions would later surface in a long-running patent dispute between UCSF and Genentech tied to some of the earliest recombinant DNA research, a case the two sides settled in 1999. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Long before the lawyers got involved, Bob looked south of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He rented the most inexpensive office space that he could rent, which was in South San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The offices were in a nondescript building off East Grand Avenue.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Judy Swanson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">South San Francisco was nothing then really, and they were welcoming, you know, of any idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Genentech’s new office was next door to a pornography studio. Because there were so few residential areas – nobody griped about what was in their backyard. And most importantly — there were plenty of empty warehouses large enough to handle vats, pipes, and fermentation columns that are key to biotechnology.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, as the nation argued over the risks of genetic engineering. Scientists at Genentech were quietly at work in South San Francisco, on the verge of transforming diabetes care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>NBC News clip from 1977: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Scientists around the country today were paying close attention to reports from California that genetic engineering in a laboratory may be able to produce an insulin gene that could have all kinds of effects.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Until then, people with diabetes relied on insulin taken from cow and pig pancreases. It kept them alive, but it wasn’t an exact match for human insulin and could trigger immune reactions. Genentech made the first synthetic human insulin — identical to what our bodies produce, using genetically engineered bacteria. Production began in 1978. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>NBC News, 1977:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Genetic engineering has become big business\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Within a decade, companies founded by former Genentech scientists began filling nearby warehouses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cb>NBC News, 1977: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">nd entirely new firms have emerged solely devoted to genetic engineering.\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lesley McClurg:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A cluster formed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And over time, South San Francisco became one of the most valuable square miles in American science.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In the years that followed, work done here led to HIV drugs that changed the course of the AIDS epidemic. And cancer treatments were developed that are now standard care.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">While much of the country hesitated, South San Francisco made room. What had been noisy, polluted, and overlooked proved well suited for a risky new science — one that grew into a multibillion-dollar industry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED Health Correspondent Lesley McClurg. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This question was part of a Bay Curious voting round. Did you know we have a new one up on our website every month? This month, here’s what’s up for consideration…\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why is there truly a taco truck on every corner in San Francisco and San Mateo?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why are there huge fans over the tunnels near the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What’s the story with the abandoned cop car in front of the airport off of 101? Everyone knows no actual cop is in it, so what’s the scoop with leaving there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voting takes just a click — no registering or drama, I promise. Do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can become a member today, and enjoy all sorts of nice benefits — the biggest one though. Those warm fuzzies you get knowing you support shows like ours. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katherine Monahan, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-eccentric-personalities-behind-sunnyside-conservatory-a-120-year-old-garden-in-san-francisco",
"title": "The Eccentric Personalities Behind Sunnyside Conservatory, a 120-Year-Old Garden in San Francisco",
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"headTitle": "The Eccentric Personalities Behind Sunnyside Conservatory, a 120-Year-Old Garden in San Francisco | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s \u003c/a>Sunnyside neighborhood, just west of Glen Park, isn’t actually very sunny. In fact, it’s one of the foggier places in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of its main thoroughfares, Monterey Boulevard, carries drivers west towards tonier places like St. Francis Wood, passing many houses and apartment buildings along the way. But slow down a little, and you might catch a glimpse of a building that feels out of the ordinary in this residential place — Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Set back from the street and tucked behind a wrought iron gate, the octagonal redwood building has two stories of windows surrounded by a lush garden of towering palms, ferns and flowering bushes. It’s beautiful and old-world feeling, a unique Victorian gem on an otherwise busy street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Mary Balmana often uses Monterey Boulevard to get to her home in Mission Terrace. She’s seen the conservatory hundreds of times, but hasn’t noticed anyone going inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074410\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside resident and historian Amy O’Hair poses for a portrait at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, she wants answers. What is the conservatory doing here in Sunnyside, who owns it and could she rent it out?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An inventor’s oasis\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Sunnyside Conservatory was built by William Augustus Merralls, a British inventor and eccentric. He bought a house along what is now Monterey Boulevard in 1897, when the area was mostly rural. Land was cheap, so he also bought up seven lots around his house and then set about making the grounds his own private oasis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He collected exotic plants, and he liked to have a place for them,” said Amy O’Hair, Sunnyside resident,\u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/\"> local historian\u003c/a> and author of the forthcoming book, \u003cem>History Walks in Sunnyside\u003c/em>. She’s currently writing a book about the conservatory’s history.[aside postID=news_12074121 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/260123-ITALIANNORTHBEACH-06-BL-KQED.jpg']Merralls made his money designing and patenting mining equipment. He had more than 20 different patents, mostly for machines that helped extract ever smaller amounts of gold from rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He did well, but whatever he got he spent on his projects,” O’Hair said. “He had a restless mind, always wanting to invent new things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of his inventions were practical, others less so. He invented an automobile starter, a refrigerator and a “deep breathing developer,” a contraption for his wife, Temperance Laura, who was fascinated by alternative medicine. The details of how it actually worked have been lost to time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1902, he built the conservatory, a building beautifully crafted out of redwood in Victorian style. In addition to collecting exotic plants, Merralls also loved astronomy. He built himself an observatory on the back of his house. And he loved luxury items; his house had two grand pianos and a private bowling alley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He apparently didn’t need to live amongst his peers,” O’Hair said. “He was a very independent-minded man, and he was happy out here in his own enclave with all of his toys in the house and all of those plants out here in the conservatory and a wife he loved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Temperance Laura, lived in Sunnyside, enjoying their house and its grounds until 1914, when Merralls tragically died in a train accident while visiting a friend in Alameda. By that point, he had sunk all his money into various pursuits that hadn’t paid off, and when he died, Temperance Laura couldn’t afford to keep living on their estate in Sunnyside. The bank repossessed the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Second act as swindler’s hideout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The property sat empty and neglected for three years before another odd couple, Ernest and Angele Van Beckh, came along and \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">bought it in 1919\u003c/a>. Ernest Van Beckh was a con man, a member of the \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">“Big Five” \u003c/a>whose exploits selling worthless mining shares to unsuspecting people and stealing their money were splashed across the newspapers in 1916.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the district attorney brought charges against Van Beckh, he got off when witnesses the prosecution had lined up to testify “just kind of went away,” as Amy put it. One went back to Montana. Another decided not to press charges. And Ernest avoided jail time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074414\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074414\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-1536x1030.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory circa 1975, when it had fallen into disrepair. Here, the east wing still stands, but it was later knocked down. \u003ccite>(Greg Gaar/San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“They made millions of dollars in the 1910s,” O’Hair said. “And some of that money went towards buying this property. This was their hideout.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Van Beckhs would live here for decades. Ernest died in 1951, but Angele stayed on through the early ‘60s, although she too started to have money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The neighbors were friends who built their own house on the other side of the conservatory — what is now 234 Monterey Boulevard. While Angele was living there, the two families enjoyed the conservatory and its grounds as one shared yard. But when they moved away, the property lines became a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Saving the conservatory again and again\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, Angele’s friends sold their house at 234 Monterey Boulevard and the property with the conservatory on it to a man named Robert Anderson. He started delineating the different lots with an eye to \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/04/18/saving-sunnyside-conservatory/\">developing the property\u003c/a> further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the same time, neighbors started getting interested in preserving the conservatory as a historic landmark. The \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysideassociation.org/\">Sunnyside Neighborhood Association\u003c/a> had just formed, and its members started researching the conservatory’s history with a goal to get it landmarked by the city.[aside postID=news_11958380 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/08/BlueHouse_Flickr.png']“They wanted to save it from demolition,” O’Hair said. After World War II, \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/12/07/sunnyside-upzoned/\">Sunnyside was rezoned \u003c/a>to allow for more apartment buildings, which started popping up along Monterey Boulevard throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s. “And they didn’t want to see this property go for apartment buildings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neighbors were successful in getting the \u003ca href=\"https://default.sfplanning.org/Preservation/bulletins/HistPres_Bulletin_09.PDF\">conservatory landmarked in 1975\u003c/a>, which theoretically should have preserved it. However, the owner, Robert Anderson, still managed to get a permit to demolish it. Neighbors had no idea about his plan until they spotted construction equipment at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard,” neighbor \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v70K3B-inOg\">Greg Garr said in an interview with Amy O’Hair\u003c/a>. “I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory, and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, ‘What the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it?’ I knew it was a registered historic landmark.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called his representative and City Hall, clamoring to stop the demolition. Those efforts were successful, but the damage had been done. The structure was damaged, and almost all the windows had been knocked out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was an emergency now,” O’Hair said. “The city needed to buy the property. What good is a landmark if you don’t own the property under it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A stock certificate of William Merralls, who built Sunnyside Conservatory, is shown by Amy O’Hair at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1980, the city bought the land from Robert Anderson using the \u003ca href=\"https://generalplan.sfplanning.org/I3_Recreation_and_Open_Space.htm#:~:text=San%20Francisco%20values%20its%20recreation,the%20combination%20of%20the%20two.\">Open Space Fund\u003c/a>. And for many years after, the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association did its best to look after the building, but it fell into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those years in the 90s when it had no glass, and you could climb right over [the fence], there was always graffiti and beer bottles,” O’Hair remembered. “And Rec and Park didn’t really take care of the grounds.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, it was another neighbor, \u003ca href=\"https://calhortsociety.org/2020/01/29/ted-kipping/\">Ted Kipping\u003c/a>, who tended the beautiful trees and plants William Merralls had planted all those years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One time, when I was talking to him, he said, ‘I spent $1,000 a month on water,’” O’Hair said. “I don’t know if it’s true. But he was very important to preserving some of the specialness of the grounds, for which I’m thankful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Renovating the conservatory\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, another neighborhood group formed — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sunnysideconservatory.org/about\">Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory\u003c/a>. They set ambitious fundraising goals and worked with San Francisco Rec and Park to execute a multimillion-dollar renovation of the building that would restore it to its original glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the building was under renovation, yet another neighbor came forward with a piece of history to share. When the building and grounds were sold in 1974, and it looked like the old place might be demolished by Robert Anderson, this neighbor had saved the wooden spire from the top of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory contains a sign indicating that it is a city landmark in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He kept it in his garage for 30 years, bringing it out and offering it to the builders as they renovated. Unfortunately, by then it was rotting, but the builders made an exact replica and covered it in copper. That spire sits on top of the building to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a community-led effort, top to bottom,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The conservatory has since become a symbol for Sunnyside residents. It was the first campaign that brought neighbors together, fighting for something that makes their corner of San Francisco special and unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Rec and Park now maintains the building and grounds, but \u003ca href=\"https://sfrecpark.org/665/Sunnyside-Conservatory\">they do rent it out\u003c/a>. Sunnyside neighborhood groups get a bit of a deal, but there have been plenty of weddings, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been listening to the show for a while you may have intuited by now, but San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park is one of my absolute favorite places. I love all its nooks and crannies, the unique playgrounds, those long undulating pathways. But I’d argue the crown jewel of the park is the Conservatory of Flowers, partly because of the incredible and rare plants housed inside…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>News Clip: \u003c/strong>The rare corpse flower at the Conservatory of flowers is now open to view and smell.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Like the corpse flower, which only blooms for 48 hours every 3-5 years! And stands more than 6 feet tall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Conservatory of Flowers is also renowned for its architecture. A Victorian glass building – delicate, intricate – topped with a stately domed roof. It’s like nothing else in the city! Or so I thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out San Francisco has \u003cem>another\u003c/em> conservatory across town near Glen Park. It’s much smaller, only a quarter the size, but still lovely. I’m talking about Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Balmana: \u003c/strong>My name is Mary Balmana. I live in the Mission Terrace area of San Francisco, and I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mary drives by Sunnyside Conservatory on Monterey Boulevard often, but never sees anyone going in or out. She wants to know its history – and how such a curious building ended up in what is otherwise a very residential area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz is here to tell us all about it. Hi, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Hi Olivia\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Maybe you could start by just painting a picture of the conservatory as it looks now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Sunnyside Conservatory is set back from the street a little ways and is surrounded by a lush garden with huge palm trees, ferns and beautiful flowering bushes. It kind of feels like a cloud forest right in the middle of a residential neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What about the building itself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The building is made of redwood and features a two story octagonal center that dominates the senses. Two levels of windows that let in beautiful amounts of light…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What kind of fabulous plants are inside? Anything to rival the corpse flower?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Sadly, this conservatory no longer has plants inside at all. It’s now used as an events space. But when it was first built in 1902, it was the pride of its owner – who was just the first of a line of quirky residents the property has had over its 100 or so years. Let’s meet some of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It was built by an eccentric and unique man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Amy O’Hair runs the Sunnyside History Project and lives nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He was an inventor, William Augustus Merralls, he moved here to Sunnyside when there was very little on Monterey Boulevard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Even though Sunnyside is part of San Francisco now, back then the area was rural. Picture a smattering of houses and dairy farms. Merralls bought a big house here in 1897 and then several adjoining plots of land over the next few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He accumulated seven lots, and then built his conservatory in 1902. He collected exotic plants and he liked to have a place for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Merralls made his money engineering mining equipment — but his true heart’s desire was invention. Over the years he invented dozens of things, some useful stuff, and some less so. Amy actually met his great grandson, who had some of Merralls’ old papers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>I thought I’d show you some stuff. Things that belonged to William Merrill’s like his patents. So I have all the patents for things that he made. This is a stamp mill. That’s a thing that crushes rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Look at those seals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Yes, they’re very fancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This is a letter he wrote while he was in New York City raising money for the automobile starters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Will you read a little bit of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Darling, you should see the Merralls starter at work on that big engine. You would be tickled to pieces. It is a dandy. And when you come on for Thanksgiving, you shall be the first lady to ride in an automobile that has the only commercial, perfect self-starter in the world, and that one is a Merralls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>He’s like promoting himself to his wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>To his wife, for God’s sake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The thing is, Merralls probably had his hand in one too many projects. He had a tendency to move on before things were finished and he was sued a number of times. By the time of his death in 1914, he was having money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm. Unfortunately, you can’t just create the thing, but you have to sell it too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes, and unfortunately that meant that when he died, the bank repossessed the whole property, including the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What happened to it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The house and its grounds sat empty for three years and then another couple bought it. The next in the line of curious owners…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>The name of this couple was Ernest and Angel Van Beck. They were very strange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ernest Van Bech was essentially a scam artist. He made a boatload of money selling worthless mining bonds to people…basically swindling them out of their money. The district attorney even brought charges, but when the witnesses didn’t show up to testify, they had to let Ernest go. And he lived out his life on the property with the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Ernest would not show his face. There were a lot of rumors about him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Kind of the Boo Radley of Sunnyside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> He really was. The neighborhood kids were all afraid of him. But after decades living in the house next to the conservatory he died in 1951. His wife, Angele, kept living there, but she needed money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors were friends of hers. They built a house on the other side of the conservatory — the east wing of the building was actually in their backyard. At the time, that wasn’t a big deal because Angele and her friends basically shared the conservatory and its grounds like one big yard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But eventually Angele moved away and her friends sold their home – and they leave behind the conservatory, which now straddles two properties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this foreshadowing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This is foreshadowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll find out what happened after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, Katrina, you were telling us what happened to the conservatory after Angele Van Beck and her friends next door moved away and sold the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The bulk of the conservatory and its grounds ended up in the hands of a man named Robert Anderson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It’s 1975 by now, and there’s a lot of local interest in the conservatory as a historic structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>People who live nearby had grown attached to the conservatory. They view it as a symbol of the neighborhood. A group called the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association forms and they start researching the history of the conservatory in order to get it landmarked as a historic building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>They wanted to save it from demolition because in the 50s and 60s and 70s, along Monterey Boulevard, we’d had so many empty lots, and it was rezoned after the war, that apartment buildings were growing up all the way along it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors succeeded in getting the building landmarked, but that didn’t keep it safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>But then Robert Anderson decided he actually would build some apartment buildings and he got a permit to demolish the conservatory, which he attempted to do at the end of 1978. And it was only saved because of two people who had their eye on the conservatory. Greg Gaar is one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greg Garr: \u003c/strong>Well, I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard. I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, what the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it? I knew it was a registered historic landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Greg Garr and other neighbors started frantically calling city hall and they got the demolition halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>When they were done, the glass was knocked out of most of the windows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This seems like an impasse. Robert Anderson can’t knock the conservatory down and build anything new – but he owns it. So what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, the city buys the land from him. But there wasn’t any money to renovate the building then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Sunnyside Neighborhood Association tried to get it renovated and they looked after it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They scraped graffiti off the building and boarded up all the broken windows to keep rain out. But unfortunately the whole thing was falling into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point in the 1980s, the east wing of the conservatory – the part that crossed over onto another property – it gets knocked down, leaving the building looking kind of lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>And it is a loss, because it’s no longer, it’s whole, whole self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wait, after saving it from being knocked down by the developer…part of it was still demolished?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, sadly. Amy says the circumstances are a bit mysterious, but that eastern wing is in photos of the conservatory through early 1980 and then it’s just gone. If you go there now, there’s a fence right up against the main part of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Sounds like these neighbors really had to be vigilant to keep this thing from being torn down completely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> You know, they did their best. And there was a man who lived behind the conservatory…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Whose name was Ted Kipping. And he was a professional botanist, arborist, and plant collector, and photographer, speaker. Very ambitious, very dedicated. He took care of the grounds in the 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The conservatory becomes something of a pet project for him. A very expensive one…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>One time, when I was talking to him, he said, I spent $1,000 a month on water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> How does it turn into the beautiful building it is today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A group called the Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory forms in 1999 and spend about 10 years raising money and getting San Francisco Rec and Park on board. They did a big multimillion dollar renovation in the 2000s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>We’re here at the Sunnyside’s Conservatory that’s re-opening and this has been a long fought community effort to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a big party at the conservatory to celebrate its reopening in 2009. Then mayor Gavin Newsom was there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>In a hundred years they’ll be talking about, in 2009…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Everyone was so excited that this neighborhood gem had been restored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>Here’s the original spire. It was somewhere up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The conservatory has a spire?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes — the original 1902 building that William Merralls built had a redwood spire on top. And a neighbor kept that spire in his garage for 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This man volunteered this finial, redwood finial from the original building and said, well, here it is. You know, you can put it back on the new building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And did they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, by then it was fairly rotten. So, instead they made an exact replica, covered it in copper and that’s what’s now on top of the current building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A bit of a cherry on top, if you will. So now the neighborhood has this pretty special place for everyone to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Not only that, but working to preserve the conservatory brought the community together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this history with us, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And if you haven’t been to the Sunnyside Conservatory, you should really check it out!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> One thing I love about the Bay Area is that most neighborhoods have little gems like this one. They’re usually not things people would go out of their way to visit…but they do make each little corner of this area special. If you’ve got a spot near you that you’ve always wondered about, head on over to bay curious dot org and submit a question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested to know more about Sunnyside, Amy O’Hair has a book called \u003cem>History Walks of Sunnyside\u003c/em> coming out very soon. So keep your eyes peeled for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve been enjoying the double dose of Bay Curious we’ve been putting out this month, consider making a donation to KQED to support our work. Every little bit helps, just head over to KQED dot or slash donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s \u003c/a>Sunnyside neighborhood, just west of Glen Park, isn’t actually very sunny. In fact, it’s one of the foggier places in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of its main thoroughfares, Monterey Boulevard, carries drivers west towards tonier places like St. Francis Wood, passing many houses and apartment buildings along the way. But slow down a little, and you might catch a glimpse of a building that feels out of the ordinary in this residential place — Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Set back from the street and tucked behind a wrought iron gate, the octagonal redwood building has two stories of windows surrounded by a lush garden of towering palms, ferns and flowering bushes. It’s beautiful and old-world feeling, a unique Victorian gem on an otherwise busy street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Mary Balmana often uses Monterey Boulevard to get to her home in Mission Terrace. She’s seen the conservatory hundreds of times, but hasn’t noticed anyone going inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074410\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074410\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-sunnysideconservatory00188_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside resident and historian Amy O’Hair poses for a portrait at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, she wants answers. What is the conservatory doing here in Sunnyside, who owns it and could she rent it out?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An inventor’s oasis\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Sunnyside Conservatory was built by William Augustus Merralls, a British inventor and eccentric. He bought a house along what is now Monterey Boulevard in 1897, when the area was mostly rural. Land was cheap, so he also bought up seven lots around his house and then set about making the grounds his own private oasis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He collected exotic plants, and he liked to have a place for them,” said Amy O’Hair, Sunnyside resident,\u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/\"> local historian\u003c/a> and author of the forthcoming book, \u003cem>History Walks in Sunnyside\u003c/em>. She’s currently writing a book about the conservatory’s history.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Merralls made his money designing and patenting mining equipment. He had more than 20 different patents, mostly for machines that helped extract ever smaller amounts of gold from rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He did well, but whatever he got he spent on his projects,” O’Hair said. “He had a restless mind, always wanting to invent new things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of his inventions were practical, others less so. He invented an automobile starter, a refrigerator and a “deep breathing developer,” a contraption for his wife, Temperance Laura, who was fascinated by alternative medicine. The details of how it actually worked have been lost to time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1902, he built the conservatory, a building beautifully crafted out of redwood in Victorian style. In addition to collecting exotic plants, Merralls also loved astronomy. He built himself an observatory on the back of his house. And he loved luxury items; his house had two grand pianos and a private bowling alley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He apparently didn’t need to live amongst his peers,” O’Hair said. “He was a very independent-minded man, and he was happy out here in his own enclave with all of his toys in the house and all of those plants out here in the conservatory and a wife he loved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He and his wife, Temperance Laura, lived in Sunnyside, enjoying their house and its grounds until 1914, when Merralls tragically died in a train accident while visiting a friend in Alameda. By that point, he had sunk all his money into various pursuits that hadn’t paid off, and when he died, Temperance Laura couldn’t afford to keep living on their estate in Sunnyside. The bank repossessed the house.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Second act as swindler’s hideout\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The property sat empty and neglected for three years before another odd couple, Ernest and Angele Van Beckh, came along and \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">bought it in 1919\u003c/a>. Ernest Van Beckh was a con man, a member of the \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2023/07/18/the-king-of-the-clairvoyants-the-man-who-bought-the-sunnyside-conservatory/\">“Big Five” \u003c/a>whose exploits selling worthless mining shares to unsuspecting people and stealing their money were splashed across the newspapers in 1916.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although the district attorney brought charges against Van Beckh, he got off when witnesses the prosecution had lined up to testify “just kind of went away,” as Amy put it. One went back to Montana. Another decided not to press charges. And Ernest avoided jail time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074414\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074414\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1341\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260224-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY-CIRCA-1975-KQED-1536x1030.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory circa 1975, when it had fallen into disrepair. Here, the east wing still stands, but it was later knocked down. \u003ccite>(Greg Gaar/San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“They made millions of dollars in the 1910s,” O’Hair said. “And some of that money went towards buying this property. This was their hideout.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Van Beckhs would live here for decades. Ernest died in 1951, but Angele stayed on through the early ‘60s, although she too started to have money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The neighbors were friends who built their own house on the other side of the conservatory — what is now 234 Monterey Boulevard. While Angele was living there, the two families enjoyed the conservatory and its grounds as one shared yard. But when they moved away, the property lines became a problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Saving the conservatory again and again\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, Angele’s friends sold their house at 234 Monterey Boulevard and the property with the conservatory on it to a man named Robert Anderson. He started delineating the different lots with an eye to \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/04/18/saving-sunnyside-conservatory/\">developing the property\u003c/a> further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the same time, neighbors started getting interested in preserving the conservatory as a historic landmark. The \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysideassociation.org/\">Sunnyside Neighborhood Association\u003c/a> had just formed, and its members started researching the conservatory’s history with a goal to get it landmarked by the city.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“They wanted to save it from demolition,” O’Hair said. After World War II, \u003ca href=\"https://sunnysidehistory.org/2025/12/07/sunnyside-upzoned/\">Sunnyside was rezoned \u003c/a>to allow for more apartment buildings, which started popping up along Monterey Boulevard throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s. “And they didn’t want to see this property go for apartment buildings.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neighbors were successful in getting the \u003ca href=\"https://default.sfplanning.org/Preservation/bulletins/HistPres_Bulletin_09.PDF\">conservatory landmarked in 1975\u003c/a>, which theoretically should have preserved it. However, the owner, Robert Anderson, still managed to get a permit to demolish it. Neighbors had no idea about his plan until they spotted construction equipment at work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard,” neighbor \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v70K3B-inOg\">Greg Garr said in an interview with Amy O’Hair\u003c/a>. “I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory, and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, ‘What the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it?’ I knew it was a registered historic landmark.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He called his representative and City Hall, clamoring to stop the demolition. Those efforts were successful, but the damage had been done. The structure was damaged, and almost all the windows had been knocked out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was an emergency now,” O’Hair said. “The city needed to buy the property. What good is a landmark if you don’t own the property under it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00222_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A stock certificate of William Merralls, who built Sunnyside Conservatory, is shown by Amy O’Hair at Sunnyside Conservatory in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1980, the city bought the land from Robert Anderson using the \u003ca href=\"https://generalplan.sfplanning.org/I3_Recreation_and_Open_Space.htm#:~:text=San%20Francisco%20values%20its%20recreation,the%20combination%20of%20the%20two.\">Open Space Fund\u003c/a>. And for many years after, the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association did its best to look after the building, but it fell into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All those years in the 90s when it had no glass, and you could climb right over [the fence], there was always graffiti and beer bottles,” O’Hair remembered. “And Rec and Park didn’t really take care of the grounds.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, it was another neighbor, \u003ca href=\"https://calhortsociety.org/2020/01/29/ted-kipping/\">Ted Kipping\u003c/a>, who tended the beautiful trees and plants William Merralls had planted all those years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One time, when I was talking to him, he said, ‘I spent $1,000 a month on water,’” O’Hair said. “I don’t know if it’s true. But he was very important to preserving some of the specialness of the grounds, for which I’m thankful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Renovating the conservatory\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, another neighborhood group formed — \u003ca href=\"https://www.sunnysideconservatory.org/about\">Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory\u003c/a>. They set ambitious fundraising goals and worked with San Francisco Rec and Park to execute a multimillion-dollar renovation of the building that would restore it to its original glory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the building was under renovation, yet another neighbor came forward with a piece of history to share. When the building and grounds were sold in 1974, and it looked like the old place might be demolished by Robert Anderson, this neighbor had saved the wooden spire from the top of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12074241\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12074241\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00362_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sunnyside Conservatory contains a sign indicating that it is a city landmark in San Francisco on February 20, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He kept it in his garage for 30 years, bringing it out and offering it to the builders as they renovated. Unfortunately, by then it was rotting, but the builders made an exact replica and covered it in copper. That spire sits on top of the building to this day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is a community-led effort, top to bottom,” O’Hair said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The conservatory has since become a symbol for Sunnyside residents. It was the first campaign that brought neighbors together, fighting for something that makes their corner of San Francisco special and unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco Rec and Park now maintains the building and grounds, but \u003ca href=\"https://sfrecpark.org/665/Sunnyside-Conservatory\">they do rent it out\u003c/a>. Sunnyside neighborhood groups get a bit of a deal, but there have been plenty of weddings, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been listening to the show for a while you may have intuited by now, but San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park is one of my absolute favorite places. I love all its nooks and crannies, the unique playgrounds, those long undulating pathways. But I’d argue the crown jewel of the park is the Conservatory of Flowers, partly because of the incredible and rare plants housed inside…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>News Clip: \u003c/strong>The rare corpse flower at the Conservatory of flowers is now open to view and smell.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Like the corpse flower, which only blooms for 48 hours every 3-5 years! And stands more than 6 feet tall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Conservatory of Flowers is also renowned for its architecture. A Victorian glass building – delicate, intricate – topped with a stately domed roof. It’s like nothing else in the city! Or so I thought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turns out San Francisco has \u003cem>another\u003c/em> conservatory across town near Glen Park. It’s much smaller, only a quarter the size, but still lovely. I’m talking about Sunnyside Conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Balmana: \u003c/strong>My name is Mary Balmana. I live in the Mission Terrace area of San Francisco, and I don’t know anything about it, but I’ve passed it my whole life, basically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mary drives by Sunnyside Conservatory on Monterey Boulevard often, but never sees anyone going in or out. She wants to know its history – and how such a curious building ended up in what is otherwise a very residential area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz is here to tell us all about it. Hi, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Hi Olivia\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Maybe you could start by just painting a picture of the conservatory as it looks now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The Sunnyside Conservatory is set back from the street a little ways and is surrounded by a lush garden with huge palm trees, ferns and beautiful flowering bushes. It kind of feels like a cloud forest right in the middle of a residential neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What about the building itself?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The building is made of redwood and features a two story octagonal center that dominates the senses. Two levels of windows that let in beautiful amounts of light…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What kind of fabulous plants are inside? Anything to rival the corpse flower?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Sadly, this conservatory no longer has plants inside at all. It’s now used as an events space. But when it was first built in 1902, it was the pride of its owner – who was just the first of a line of quirky residents the property has had over its 100 or so years. Let’s meet some of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It was built by an eccentric and unique man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Amy O’Hair runs the Sunnyside History Project and lives nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He was an inventor, William Augustus Merralls, he moved here to Sunnyside when there was very little on Monterey Boulevard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Even though Sunnyside is part of San Francisco now, back then the area was rural. Picture a smattering of houses and dairy farms. Merralls bought a big house here in 1897 and then several adjoining plots of land over the next few years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>He accumulated seven lots, and then built his conservatory in 1902. He collected exotic plants and he liked to have a place for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Merralls made his money engineering mining equipment — but his true heart’s desire was invention. Over the years he invented dozens of things, some useful stuff, and some less so. Amy actually met his great grandson, who had some of Merralls’ old papers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>I thought I’d show you some stuff. Things that belonged to William Merrill’s like his patents. So I have all the patents for things that he made. This is a stamp mill. That’s a thing that crushes rock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Look at those seals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Yes, they’re very fancy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This is a letter he wrote while he was in New York City raising money for the automobile starters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Will you read a little bit of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Darling, you should see the Merralls starter at work on that big engine. You would be tickled to pieces. It is a dandy. And when you come on for Thanksgiving, you shall be the first lady to ride in an automobile that has the only commercial, perfect self-starter in the world, and that one is a Merralls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>He’s like promoting himself to his wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>To his wife, for God’s sake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The thing is, Merralls probably had his hand in one too many projects. He had a tendency to move on before things were finished and he was sued a number of times. By the time of his death in 1914, he was having money problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mmm. Unfortunately, you can’t just create the thing, but you have to sell it too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes, and unfortunately that meant that when he died, the bank repossessed the whole property, including the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What happened to it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The house and its grounds sat empty for three years and then another couple bought it. The next in the line of curious owners…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>The name of this couple was Ernest and Angel Van Beck. They were very strange.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ernest Van Bech was essentially a scam artist. He made a boatload of money selling worthless mining bonds to people…basically swindling them out of their money. The district attorney even brought charges, but when the witnesses didn’t show up to testify, they had to let Ernest go. And he lived out his life on the property with the conservatory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Ernest would not show his face. There were a lot of rumors about him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Kind of the Boo Radley of Sunnyside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> He really was. The neighborhood kids were all afraid of him. But after decades living in the house next to the conservatory he died in 1951. His wife, Angele, kept living there, but she needed money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>She slowly sold off all the property to a neighbor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors were friends of hers. They built a house on the other side of the conservatory — the east wing of the building was actually in their backyard. At the time, that wasn’t a big deal because Angele and her friends basically shared the conservatory and its grounds like one big yard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But eventually Angele moved away and her friends sold their home – and they leave behind the conservatory, which now straddles two properties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this foreshadowing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>This is foreshadowing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll find out what happened after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, Katrina, you were telling us what happened to the conservatory after Angele Van Beck and her friends next door moved away and sold the property.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The bulk of the conservatory and its grounds ended up in the hands of a man named Robert Anderson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>It’s 1975 by now, and there’s a lot of local interest in the conservatory as a historic structure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>People who live nearby had grown attached to the conservatory. They view it as a symbol of the neighborhood. A group called the Sunnyside Neighborhood Association forms and they start researching the history of the conservatory in order to get it landmarked as a historic building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>They wanted to save it from demolition because in the 50s and 60s and 70s, along Monterey Boulevard, we’d had so many empty lots, and it was rezoned after the war, that apartment buildings were growing up all the way along it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The neighbors succeeded in getting the building landmarked, but that didn’t keep it safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>But then Robert Anderson decided he actually would build some apartment buildings and he got a permit to demolish the conservatory, which he attempted to do at the end of 1978. And it was only saved because of two people who had their eye on the conservatory. Greg Gaar is one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greg Garr: \u003c/strong>Well, I was riding my bicycle along Monterey Boulevard. I think I was going to City College at that time. And I passed by the Sunnyside Conservatory and I saw heavy equipment in there. And part of the building had been removed. And I said, what the heck? I mean, are they demolishing it? I knew it was a registered historic landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Greg Garr and other neighbors started frantically calling city hall and they got the demolition halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>When they were done, the glass was knocked out of most of the windows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This seems like an impasse. Robert Anderson can’t knock the conservatory down and build anything new – but he owns it. So what happens?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, the city buys the land from him. But there wasn’t any money to renovate the building then.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Sunnyside Neighborhood Association tried to get it renovated and they looked after it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>They scraped graffiti off the building and boarded up all the broken windows to keep rain out. But unfortunately the whole thing was falling into disrepair.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At some point in the 1980s, the east wing of the conservatory – the part that crossed over onto another property – it gets knocked down, leaving the building looking kind of lopsided.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>And it is a loss, because it’s no longer, it’s whole, whole self.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wait, after saving it from being knocked down by the developer…part of it was still demolished?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, sadly. Amy says the circumstances are a bit mysterious, but that eastern wing is in photos of the conservatory through early 1980 and then it’s just gone. If you go there now, there’s a fence right up against the main part of the building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Sounds like these neighbors really had to be vigilant to keep this thing from being torn down completely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> You know, they did their best. And there was a man who lived behind the conservatory…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>Whose name was Ted Kipping. And he was a professional botanist, arborist, and plant collector, and photographer, speaker. Very ambitious, very dedicated. He took care of the grounds in the 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> The conservatory becomes something of a pet project for him. A very expensive one…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>One time, when I was talking to him, he said, I spent $1,000 a month on water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> How does it turn into the beautiful building it is today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>A group called the Friends of Sunnyside Conservatory forms in 1999 and spend about 10 years raising money and getting San Francisco Rec and Park on board. They did a big multimillion dollar renovation in the 2000s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>We’re here at the Sunnyside’s Conservatory that’s re-opening and this has been a long fought community effort to make this happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a big party at the conservatory to celebrate its reopening in 2009. Then mayor Gavin Newsom was there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Gavin Newsom: \u003c/strong>In a hundred years they’ll be talking about, in 2009…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Everyone was so excited that this neighborhood gem had been restored.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Reopening video clip: \u003c/strong>Here’s the original spire. It was somewhere up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The conservatory has a spire?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Yes — the original 1902 building that William Merralls built had a redwood spire on top. And a neighbor kept that spire in his garage for 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Amy O’Hair: \u003c/strong>This man volunteered this finial, redwood finial from the original building and said, well, here it is. You know, you can put it back on the new building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And did they?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, by then it was fairly rotten. So, instead they made an exact replica, covered it in copper and that’s what’s now on top of the current building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A bit of a cherry on top, if you will. So now the neighborhood has this pretty special place for everyone to enjoy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> Not only that, but working to preserve the conservatory brought the community together\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this history with us, Katrina.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/strong> My pleasure. And if you haven’t been to the Sunnyside Conservatory, you should really check it out!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> One thing I love about the Bay Area is that most neighborhoods have little gems like this one. They’re usually not things people would go out of their way to visit…but they do make each little corner of this area special. If you’ve got a spot near you that you’ve always wondered about, head on over to bay curious dot org and submit a question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re interested to know more about Sunnyside, Amy O’Hair has a book called \u003cem>History Walks of Sunnyside\u003c/em> coming out very soon. So keep your eyes peeled for that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve been enjoying the double dose of Bay Curious we’ve been putting out this month, consider making a donation to KQED to support our work. Every little bit helps, just head over to KQED dot or slash donate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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},
"mindshift": {
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"soldout": {
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