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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lawmakers are demanding that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth release video of the September strike that killed two survivors of a U.S. attack on their boat in the Caribbean. That strike, which the Pentagon says targeted drug traffickers, has prompted war crime accusations. But since then, the U.S. has launched more than 20 strikes in the region, killing more than 80 people. We talk about the impact and legality of the attacks along with other controversies at the Pentagon \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— \u003c/span> and the political implications for Hegseth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. 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Barnes covers U.S. intelligence agencies and international security for \u003cem data-start=\"1075\" data-end=\"1095\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Julian, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1116\" data-end=\"1123\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1169\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1147\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1339\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1184\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Can you start by reviewing what happened on September 2 when the U.S. military launched two attacks on a speedboat in the Caribbean Sea?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1672\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1362\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Sure. What we know is that the U.S. military was tracking this boat in the Caribbean — coming from Venezuela and reportedly headed either to Trinidad and Tobago or Suriname. 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Barnes:\u003c/strong> The video — which has not been shown publicly but which lawmakers and congressional aides have seen — shows the survivors climbing onto the wreckage of the boat and waving, making gestures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3096\" data-end=\"3425\">Most people who have seen it say the most logical explanation is that they are seeking rescue. They had seen the American aircraft that launched the attack. This was the first strike, so they did not know there was a military campaign against drug boats. They might not have known they had just been hit by an American missile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3427\" data-end=\"3578\">So a lot of people believe they were waving for rescue, seeing the AC-130 or another aircraft overhead. Others interpreted it as a wave of surrender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3580\" data-end=\"3913\">But initially, the military leaders briefed Congress that this was a form of communication — that the survivors might have been signaling to another drug boat or drug plane. We now know there was no such drug boat in visual range. So that explanation — offered as a rationale for the strike — does not hold up under logical scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"4168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"3928\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why would it be important for military commanders and the administration to say the shipwrecked men were communicating with other drug boats? Is it because, if they were shipwrecked and seeking rescue, killing them would have been a crime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4384\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4191\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> If this is indeed an armed conflict — which the U.S. military asserts, even though Congress has not authorized it — international law and the military’s own Law of War Manual are very clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4386\" data-end=\"4634\">The Second Geneva Convention says you cannot target shipwrecked individuals — people who are out of the fight. It is a war crime to kill someone who is not in a position to take part in the fight and who is struggling for life on a capsized boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4636\" data-end=\"4827\">On the other hand, if someone is still in the fight — still has weapons, still poses a threat — they remain a legitimate target under the laws of armed conflict and the military’s own code.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"5131\">So what a reasonable person would have thought about the intent of these survivors is extremely important. And when you describe the situation, the average person understands that someone fighting for their life in the water is not still involved in the fight — they’re not a classic combatant anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5146\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask our listeners: What do you think? What are your reactions to what you’re hearing about the latest revelations regarding U.S. military strikes in the Caribbean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5465\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5335\" data-end=\"5349\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5613\">Julian, can you remind us what a massive departure this type of military action is from how the U.S. has normally handled drug smugglers on boats?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5884\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5636\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> That’s a really important point. We have not treated this as a traditional military operation. We have not treated drug traffickers the same way we treat terrorists or members of an enemy army. This has historically been a law enforcement issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5886\" data-end=\"6228\">Until the Trump administration began this campaign in September, the U.S. government put Coast Guard personnel on Navy ships. When a Navy ship stopped a boat suspected of drug smuggling, it was a law enforcement action. The Coast Guard took the lead — gathering evidence, and the people could be brought to Florida for possible prosecution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6230\" data-end=\"6557\">You would have to prove in a court of law that they were trafficking drugs — violating American law. But in this case, treating it as a military operation means the evidence is destroyed when bombs are dropped. The people have — with one exception — been killed. The drugs, if present, have ended up at the bottom of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6559\" data-end=\"6814\">And the military has not released detailed information about how they know these boats were carrying drugs. We have some anonymous information about the basics, but no detailed account the public can interrogate. It’s quite a departure from past practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"7039\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"6829\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to play a cut of Secretary Hegseth speaking at a defense forum in Simi Valley this past Saturday, where he appears to be giving the DOD’s justification for attacking drug smugglers in this military way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7065\">Pete Hegseth (clip):\u003c/strong> The days in which these narcoterrorists — designated terror organizations — operate freely in our hemisphere are over. These narcoterrorists are the Al Qaeda of our hemisphere, and we are hunting them with the same sophistication and precision that we hunted Al Qaeda. We are tracking them. We are killing them. And we will keep killing them so long as they are poisoning our people with narcotics so lethal that they’re tantamount to chemical weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7533\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he’s essentially saying drug smugglers are narcoterrorists comparable to Al Qaeda, which actually attacked the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7954\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7675\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was in California and listened to his speech and talked to people about it. It is quite a departure. He’s saying drug smugglers are the same as Al Qaeda. When he talks about chemical weapons, he’s suggesting the drugs themselves are weapons designed to kill Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7956\" data-end=\"8131\">Drugs do kill Americans — but the drugs they’re targeting in the Caribbean are mostly cocaine. There are cocaine overdoses, though far fewer than fentanyl deaths in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8133\" data-end=\"8410\">So it is quite a departure to consider cocaine a weapon. In a counterterrorism context, if someone is planting an IED, or a survivor of a drone strike moves toward an explosive, that’s a hostile act. But saying that carrying drugs is a hostile act is a very different scenario.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8539\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8425\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing you said at the top — and we’re coming up on a break — is that the boat wasn’t bound for the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8714\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8562\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Drug trafficking from Venezuela largely heads to Europe. Ninety percent of it goes to Europe. 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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lawmakers are demanding that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth release video of the September strike that killed two survivors of a U.S. attack on their boat in the Caribbean. That strike, which the Pentagon says targeted drug traffickers, has prompted war crime accusations. But since then, the U.S. has launched more than 20 strikes in the region, killing more than 80 people. We talk about the impact and legality of the attacks along with other controversies at the Pentagon \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">— \u003c/span> and the political implications for Hegseth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"410\" data-end=\"810\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"410\" data-end=\"423\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"435\" data-end=\"442\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. A classified briefing yesterday from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth to congressional leaders and top members of the House and Senate intelligence committees was very unsatisfying, according to Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, who — along with other lawmakers — is demanding to see full video of a U.S. military strike on a boat in the Caribbean.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"812\" data-end=\"1124\">The attack included a follow-up strike that killed two survivors of the initial blast and has become the subject of intense scrutiny among lawmakers and military and legal experts. Julian E. Barnes covers U.S. intelligence agencies and international security for \u003cem data-start=\"1075\" data-end=\"1095\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Julian, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1116\" data-end=\"1123\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1169\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1126\" data-end=\"1147\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1339\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1171\" data-end=\"1184\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Glad to have you. Can you start by reviewing what happened on September 2 when the U.S. military launched two attacks on a speedboat in the Caribbean Sea?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1672\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1341\" data-end=\"1362\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Sure. What we know is that the U.S. military was tracking this boat in the Caribbean — coming from Venezuela and reportedly headed either to Trinidad and Tobago or Suriname. The U.S. military said they had intelligence that the boat was carrying cocaine and was in communication with other narcotraffickers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1674\" data-end=\"1896\">So on September 2, the first of what has become a campaign of military strikes on alleged narcotraffickers took place. The first missile was launched at the boat. It was carrying eleven people, and it killed all but two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1898\" data-end=\"2262\">We now know those two survivors ended up in the water. The boat was ripped in half by the first strike, and they were clinging to the wreckage and climbing onto the hull. And we now know that Commander Mitch Bradley — at that time the head of Joint Special Operations Command — ordered a second strike to sink the boat, kill the survivors, and destroy the drugs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2264\" data-end=\"2616\">This second strike has become the focus of congressional oversight over the last week and a half. There have been a number of classified briefings — none shown to the public — but a range of lawmakers have questioned Admiral Bradley, General Dan Cain, and yesterday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, John Ratcliffe, and the head of the CIA.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2618\" data-end=\"2879\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2618\" data-end=\"2631\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The survivors’ behavior is being interpreted in different ways. Can you explain those interpretations? First, what are Democrats and most of the military and legal experts you spoke to saying is the most logical reason for the survivors’ behavior?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2881\" data-end=\"3094\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2881\" data-end=\"2902\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> The video — which has not been shown publicly but which lawmakers and congressional aides have seen — shows the survivors climbing onto the wreckage of the boat and waving, making gestures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3096\" data-end=\"3425\">Most people who have seen it say the most logical explanation is that they are seeking rescue. They had seen the American aircraft that launched the attack. This was the first strike, so they did not know there was a military campaign against drug boats. They might not have known they had just been hit by an American missile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3427\" data-end=\"3578\">So a lot of people believe they were waving for rescue, seeing the AC-130 or another aircraft overhead. Others interpreted it as a wave of surrender.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3580\" data-end=\"3913\">But initially, the military leaders briefed Congress that this was a form of communication — that the survivors might have been signaling to another drug boat or drug plane. We now know there was no such drug boat in visual range. So that explanation — offered as a rationale for the strike — does not hold up under logical scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"4168\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3915\" data-end=\"3928\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Why would it be important for military commanders and the administration to say the shipwrecked men were communicating with other drug boats? Is it because, if they were shipwrecked and seeking rescue, killing them would have been a crime?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4384\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4170\" data-end=\"4191\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> If this is indeed an armed conflict — which the U.S. military asserts, even though Congress has not authorized it — international law and the military’s own Law of War Manual are very clear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4386\" data-end=\"4634\">The Second Geneva Convention says you cannot target shipwrecked individuals — people who are out of the fight. It is a war crime to kill someone who is not in a position to take part in the fight and who is struggling for life on a capsized boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4636\" data-end=\"4827\">On the other hand, if someone is still in the fight — still has weapons, still poses a threat — they remain a legitimate target under the laws of armed conflict and the military’s own code.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"5131\">So what a reasonable person would have thought about the intent of these survivors is extremely important. And when you describe the situation, the average person understands that someone fighting for their life in the water is not still involved in the fight — they’re not a classic combatant anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5319\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5133\" data-end=\"5146\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask our listeners: What do you think? What are your reactions to what you’re hearing about the latest revelations regarding U.S. military strikes in the Caribbean?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5321\" data-end=\"5465\">You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5335\" data-end=\"5349\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum. And you can call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5467\" data-end=\"5613\">Julian, can you remind us what a massive departure this type of military action is from how the U.S. has normally handled drug smugglers on boats?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5884\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5615\" data-end=\"5636\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> That’s a really important point. We have not treated this as a traditional military operation. We have not treated drug traffickers the same way we treat terrorists or members of an enemy army. This has historically been a law enforcement issue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5886\" data-end=\"6228\">Until the Trump administration began this campaign in September, the U.S. government put Coast Guard personnel on Navy ships. When a Navy ship stopped a boat suspected of drug smuggling, it was a law enforcement action. The Coast Guard took the lead — gathering evidence, and the people could be brought to Florida for possible prosecution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6230\" data-end=\"6557\">You would have to prove in a court of law that they were trafficking drugs — violating American law. But in this case, treating it as a military operation means the evidence is destroyed when bombs are dropped. The people have — with one exception — been killed. The drugs, if present, have ended up at the bottom of the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6559\" data-end=\"6814\">And the military has not released detailed information about how they know these boats were carrying drugs. We have some anonymous information about the basics, but no detailed account the public can interrogate. It’s quite a departure from past practice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"7039\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6816\" data-end=\"6829\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to play a cut of Secretary Hegseth speaking at a defense forum in Simi Valley this past Saturday, where he appears to be giving the DOD’s justification for attacking drug smugglers in this military way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7518\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7041\" data-end=\"7065\">Pete Hegseth (clip):\u003c/strong> The days in which these narcoterrorists — designated terror organizations — operate freely in our hemisphere are over. These narcoterrorists are the Al Qaeda of our hemisphere, and we are hunting them with the same sophistication and precision that we hunted Al Qaeda. We are tracking them. We are killing them. And we will keep killing them so long as they are poisoning our people with narcotics so lethal that they’re tantamount to chemical weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7652\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7520\" data-end=\"7533\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> So he’s essentially saying drug smugglers are narcoterrorists comparable to Al Qaeda, which actually attacked the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7954\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7654\" data-end=\"7675\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I was in California and listened to his speech and talked to people about it. It is quite a departure. He’s saying drug smugglers are the same as Al Qaeda. When he talks about chemical weapons, he’s suggesting the drugs themselves are weapons designed to kill Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7956\" data-end=\"8131\">Drugs do kill Americans — but the drugs they’re targeting in the Caribbean are mostly cocaine. There are cocaine overdoses, though far fewer than fentanyl deaths in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8133\" data-end=\"8410\">So it is quite a departure to consider cocaine a weapon. In a counterterrorism context, if someone is planting an IED, or a survivor of a drone strike moves toward an explosive, that’s a hostile act. But saying that carrying drugs is a hostile act is a very different scenario.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8539\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8412\" data-end=\"8425\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> The other thing you said at the top — and we’re coming up on a break — is that the boat wasn’t bound for the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8714\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8541\" data-end=\"8562\">Julian E. Barnes:\u003c/strong> Drug trafficking from Venezuela largely heads to Europe. Ninety percent of it goes to Europe. These drugs were bound for Europe, not the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8716\" data-end=\"8976\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8716\" data-end=\"8729\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with Julian Barnes, intelligence and national security reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"8812\" data-end=\"8832\">The New York Times\u003c/em>, about U.S. military strikes on boats in the Caribbean and the most recent one that’s getting a lot of scrutiny. More with him after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The National Institutes of Health have historically funded scientists to find cures for diseases and protect public health. NIH funding has led to the discovery of immune therapies for cancer, antiviral treatments and prevention of HIV, and ground-breaking research into memory loss and Alzheimer’s disease. After a year of funding cuts and freezes that have rocked the medical research field to its core, we catch up with leading researchers at the University of California to talk about the impact this has had on their work and our ability to fight humanity’s most puzzling illnesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"855\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"429\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"441\" data-end=\"448\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Earlier this year, journalists were all over the story about funding cuts and freezes in our nation’s medical research infrastructure. The word that actually went into a lot of headlines was “devastating.” But there’s a lot going on — so much news, so many changes to everything — and the narrative about what has happened to research funding has largely fallen off the front pages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"1061\">Today, we’re going to talk with a journalist who’s still reporting on what’s happening. Then we’re going to bring in a trio of University of California researchers who’ve been affected by all the chaos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1063\" data-end=\"1302\">We’re joined first by Megan Molteni, who’s a science writer at STAT News. Her latest article is titled, \u003cem data-start=\"1167\" data-end=\"1286\">“Trump Has ‘Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities.’ What Now?”\u003c/em> Welcome, Megan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1338\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1322\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1610\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1360\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So just catch people up. People probably saw these headlines — devastating funding cuts at NIH. This was back in February. But maybe they haven’t followed, you know, step by step what’s happened. Just walk us through quickly what happened this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1883\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1630\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There’s a lot to go through, so we may not cover it all. But the impacts sort of fall into a couple of buckets. There were terminations to a large number of grants starting in February. We’re talking about billions of dollars of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1885\" data-end=\"2156\">Those terminations fell into a few different areas that were not in alignment with the administration’s political agenda. So we were looking at grants related to HIV/AIDS research, gender and sex and transgender health research, vaccine research, and a few other areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2585\">A number of those grants were restored through the courts — federal judges ruled those cuts unlawful, and the NIH had to restore them. But there’s a bigger picture those terminations don’t really capture, and that’s the way a variety of actions the administration has taken against the NIH have really broken this trust that has underlain the last eighty years of scientific innovation and research at America’s universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2587\" data-end=\"3014\">These actions include large-scale layoffs at NIH that have impacted the ability of the institutes to hold peer-review sessions to award new grants. There’s been a real slowdown there. That slowdown includes policies implemented over the summer from the Office of Management and Budget at the White House — this is Russell Vought’s office — that directed NIH to move to what’s called an “up-front” or multi-year funding model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3016\" data-end=\"3184\">The way this was rolled out — very quickly and abruptly — meant that NIH was able to award fewer new grants in 2025, in addition to some of the cuts we’ve already seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3387\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3206\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What did the administration say its rationale was for all these changes at NIH, given that the United States has been a leader in medical research all around the world for decades?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3661\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3407\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Well, I think in some ways what we’re actually seeing is less a cohesive policy agenda about how we do science in America and more the weaponization of NIH funds in the culture war the administration is waging against institutions of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3663\" data-end=\"3866\">NIH is the largest funder of biomedical research in the world. They have a $48 billion budget; $38 billion of that goes outside its walls — often to America’s universities and medical research centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4265\">It’s really been used by the administration as a way to exert leverage over elite institutions that it sees as having run afoul — either due to so-called “woke leftist ideology” or accusations of mishandling antisemitism on campus. So many policy experts we’ve spoken to this year see what’s happened at NIH — and its relationship with academic partners — as collateral damage in that culture war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4783\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4287\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I remember — we’re going to bring in a professor in just a second who studies the thymus at UC Merced. It’s like, why was \u003cem data-start=\"4416\" data-end=\"4420\">he\u003c/em> collateral damage in this? Before we get there, though: the NIH — this actually surprised me, and listeners may not know this — did manage to allocate its full budget by the end of the year. Despite the cuts and chaos, they got all of the grant money supposedly out the door by the end of September. That sounds like good news. There’s got to be a catch, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"5065\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"4803\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Right. So that goes back to how they were able to get the money out despite losing a lot of grant management specialists — staff who push the money out the door — while also dealing with a backlog of applications due to slowdowns and pauses early in the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5067\" data-end=\"5356\">They shifted to this multi-year funding model. Historically, NIH funded awards annually. A researcher might get a five-year grant, but the money arrives year by year after a progress report. A multi-year funding award moves all of that funding up front — a big lump sum at the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5358\" data-end=\"5744\">There’s nothing inherently wrong with that model; it gives researchers flexibility. But the devil’s in the details of how you roll it out. If you push to a multi-year model without increasing the budget or phasing it in over, say, ten years, then the result is fewer researchers receiving funding because you’re giving larger chunks of money at once while the pot stays the same size.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5746\" data-end=\"6131\">The result is hyper-competitiveness. We expect that to continue in 2026 and beyond. Where you might have had a one-in-ten chance of getting an NIH grant, now it might be one in twenty-five or one in thirty. That really changes the calculus for researchers — how much time and effort to spend on a proposal, what the odds are — and it’s impacting morale across U.S. biomedical research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6153\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One imagines the corona of any culture-war-related topic will be avoided entirely. Anything that seems like it might touch that — why would a researcher who already has, you know, a four percent chance of getting a grant try to study those things?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6421\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6803\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6461\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in some other voices here. We want to hear from you, listeners. We know we have a lot of researchers who listen to the show. Maybe you’ve been affected by the changes and cuts at NIH — the chaos. Tell us about your experience. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial — we know some of those were disrupted. What are your concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6805\" data-end=\"6908\">You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6891\" data-end=\"6905\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6910\" data-end=\"7115\">Let’s bring in Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. His lab uses NIH funding to study the thymus, with implications for cancer treatment and aging. Thanks for joining us, Joel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7134\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how did all this hit you? How did this affect your particular lab?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7466\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7281\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. There have been multiple impacts. Some are very real, and others are psychological — the uncertainty. But I’ll first give an example of the immediate impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7468\" data-end=\"7778\">One way that we do our science is in a training environment. While we’re studying the thymus — which, for listeners who don’t know, is an important immune organ that sits just above your heart, under your sternum — we also train scientists. We train the next generation of scientists, engineers, and leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7780\" data-end=\"8069\">Part of our funding for that training comes from what’s called a training grant from NIH. Those were abruptly stopped mid-stream. That left us scrambling. It left my students — whose livelihoods depend on that funding — suddenly without support, with no clear picture of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8071\" data-end=\"8264\">These training programs take four to six years for a PhD. You’ve already moved somewhere and built your life there. Suddenly losing funding can be extremely disruptive — and that’s what we saw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8286\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What about the actual grant funding you would have otherwise gotten? I know in your career much of your work has been funded by the federal government, because we want to invest in people like you to do this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8777\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8523\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yes. So our current main funding comes from NIH to study the thymus. And to get one of these grants, as Megan alluded to earlier, it takes many tries — maybe one in ten grants you submit gets funded. We’re constantly thinking about writing new grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8779\" data-end=\"9058\">Once you submit a grant — which can take months or even years to develop — it gets reviewed, then goes through a funding decision, and finally, maybe a year later, you get the funding to do the work. It’s a long process from submission to award, so we’re always moving forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9060\" data-end=\"9369\">But when the brakes were put on at NIH, it really impacted that whole process. I was unable to submit grants; I thought, what’s the point? They’re not being reviewed. Study sections — the groups of scientists who review grants — were put on hold. So submitting a grant essentially meant it would go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9631\">We put the brakes on submissions. Now that some of this has restarted, it’s extremely competitive. So yes, we’re currently funded, but our future work — the things we’re learning now that we need more funding to pursue — is extremely competitive and uncertain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9996\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9653\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the impact of chaos and funding cuts on America’s medical research field. We’re joined by Megan Molteni, a science writer at STAT News. If you want to read her whole article, including data, it’s titled \u003cem data-start=\"9877\" data-end=\"9994\">“Trump Has Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities. What Now?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9998\" data-end=\"10179\">We’re also joined by Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. As we’ve noted, his lab studies the thymus with implications for cancer treatment and aging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10181\" data-end=\"10360\">We’re taking your calls too. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial. Maybe you’re a researcher. Maybe you’re a staffer affected by all of this at one of our research universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10362\" data-end=\"10490\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10403\" data-end=\"10417\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. And on social media — Bluesky, Instagram, Discord — we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10492\" data-end=\"10524\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, December 10 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The National Institutes of Health have historically funded scientists to find cures for diseases and protect public health. NIH funding has led to the discovery of immune therapies for cancer, antiviral treatments and prevention of HIV, and ground-breaking research into memory loss and Alzheimer’s disease. After a year of funding cuts and freezes that have rocked the medical research field to its core, we catch up with leading researchers at the University of California to talk about the impact this has had on their work and our ability to fight humanity’s most puzzling illnesses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"855\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"409\" data-end=\"429\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"441\" data-end=\"448\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Earlier this year, journalists were all over the story about funding cuts and freezes in our nation’s medical research infrastructure. The word that actually went into a lot of headlines was “devastating.” But there’s a lot going on — so much news, so many changes to everything — and the narrative about what has happened to research funding has largely fallen off the front pages.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"857\" data-end=\"1061\">Today, we’re going to talk with a journalist who’s still reporting on what’s happening. Then we’re going to bring in a trio of University of California researchers who’ve been affected by all the chaos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1063\" data-end=\"1302\">We’re joined first by Megan Molteni, who’s a science writer at STAT News. Her latest article is titled, \u003cem data-start=\"1167\" data-end=\"1286\">“Trump Has ‘Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities.’ What Now?”\u003c/em> Welcome, Megan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1338\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1304\" data-end=\"1322\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Thanks, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1610\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1340\" data-end=\"1360\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So just catch people up. People probably saw these headlines — devastating funding cuts at NIH. This was back in February. But maybe they haven’t followed, you know, step by step what’s happened. Just walk us through quickly what happened this year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1883\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1612\" data-end=\"1630\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Absolutely. There’s a lot to go through, so we may not cover it all. But the impacts sort of fall into a couple of buckets. There were terminations to a large number of grants starting in February. We’re talking about billions of dollars of research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1885\" data-end=\"2156\">Those terminations fell into a few different areas that were not in alignment with the administration’s political agenda. So we were looking at grants related to HIV/AIDS research, gender and sex and transgender health research, vaccine research, and a few other areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2158\" data-end=\"2585\">A number of those grants were restored through the courts — federal judges ruled those cuts unlawful, and the NIH had to restore them. But there’s a bigger picture those terminations don’t really capture, and that’s the way a variety of actions the administration has taken against the NIH have really broken this trust that has underlain the last eighty years of scientific innovation and research at America’s universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2587\" data-end=\"3014\">These actions include large-scale layoffs at NIH that have impacted the ability of the institutes to hold peer-review sessions to award new grants. There’s been a real slowdown there. That slowdown includes policies implemented over the summer from the Office of Management and Budget at the White House — this is Russell Vought’s office — that directed NIH to move to what’s called an “up-front” or multi-year funding model.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3016\" data-end=\"3184\">The way this was rolled out — very quickly and abruptly — meant that NIH was able to award fewer new grants in 2025, in addition to some of the cuts we’ve already seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3387\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3186\" data-end=\"3206\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What did the administration say its rationale was for all these changes at NIH, given that the United States has been a leader in medical research all around the world for decades?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3661\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3389\" data-end=\"3407\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Well, I think in some ways what we’re actually seeing is less a cohesive policy agenda about how we do science in America and more the weaponization of NIH funds in the culture war the administration is waging against institutions of higher education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3663\" data-end=\"3866\">NIH is the largest funder of biomedical research in the world. They have a $48 billion budget; $38 billion of that goes outside its walls — often to America’s universities and medical research centers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4265\">It’s really been used by the administration as a way to exert leverage over elite institutions that it sees as having run afoul — either due to so-called “woke leftist ideology” or accusations of mishandling antisemitism on campus. So many policy experts we’ve spoken to this year see what’s happened at NIH — and its relationship with academic partners — as collateral damage in that culture war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4783\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4267\" data-end=\"4287\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah. I remember — we’re going to bring in a professor in just a second who studies the thymus at UC Merced. It’s like, why was \u003cem data-start=\"4416\" data-end=\"4420\">he\u003c/em> collateral damage in this? Before we get there, though: the NIH — this actually surprised me, and listeners may not know this — did manage to allocate its full budget by the end of the year. Despite the cuts and chaos, they got all of the grant money supposedly out the door by the end of September. That sounds like good news. There’s got to be a catch, though.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"5065\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4785\" data-end=\"4803\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Right. So that goes back to how they were able to get the money out despite losing a lot of grant management specialists — staff who push the money out the door — while also dealing with a backlog of applications due to slowdowns and pauses early in the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5067\" data-end=\"5356\">They shifted to this multi-year funding model. Historically, NIH funded awards annually. A researcher might get a five-year grant, but the money arrives year by year after a progress report. A multi-year funding award moves all of that funding up front — a big lump sum at the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5358\" data-end=\"5744\">There’s nothing inherently wrong with that model; it gives researchers flexibility. But the devil’s in the details of how you roll it out. If you push to a multi-year model without increasing the budget or phasing it in over, say, ten years, then the result is fewer researchers receiving funding because you’re giving larger chunks of money at once while the pot stays the same size.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5746\" data-end=\"6131\">The result is hyper-competitiveness. We expect that to continue in 2026 and beyond. Where you might have had a one-in-ten chance of getting an NIH grant, now it might be one in twenty-five or one in thirty. That really changes the calculus for researchers — how much time and effort to spend on a proposal, what the odds are — and it’s impacting morale across U.S. biomedical research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6401\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6133\" data-end=\"6153\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> One imagines the corona of any culture-war-related topic will be avoided entirely. Anything that seems like it might touch that — why would a researcher who already has, you know, a four percent chance of getting a grant try to study those things?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6403\" data-end=\"6421\">Megan Molteni:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Absolutely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6803\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6441\" data-end=\"6461\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Let’s bring in some other voices here. We want to hear from you, listeners. We know we have a lot of researchers who listen to the show. Maybe you’ve been affected by the changes and cuts at NIH — the chaos. Tell us about your experience. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial — we know some of those were disrupted. What are your concerns?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6805\" data-end=\"6908\">You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6891\" data-end=\"6905\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6910\" data-end=\"7115\">Let’s bring in Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. His lab uses NIH funding to study the thymus, with implications for cancer treatment and aging. Thanks for joining us, Joel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7170\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7117\" data-end=\"7134\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Thanks for having me, Alexis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7262\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7172\" data-end=\"7192\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So how did all this hit you? How did this affect your particular lab?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7466\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7264\" data-end=\"7281\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. There have been multiple impacts. Some are very real, and others are psychological — the uncertainty. But I’ll first give an example of the immediate impact.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7468\" data-end=\"7778\">One way that we do our science is in a training environment. While we’re studying the thymus — which, for listeners who don’t know, is an important immune organ that sits just above your heart, under your sternum — we also train scientists. We train the next generation of scientists, engineers, and leaders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7780\" data-end=\"8069\">Part of our funding for that training comes from what’s called a training grant from NIH. Those were abruptly stopped mid-stream. That left us scrambling. It left my students — whose livelihoods depend on that funding — suddenly without support, with no clear picture of what comes next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8071\" data-end=\"8264\">These training programs take four to six years for a PhD. You’ve already moved somewhere and built your life there. Suddenly losing funding can be extremely disruptive — and that’s what we saw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8504\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8266\" data-end=\"8286\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What about the actual grant funding you would have otherwise gotten? I know in your career much of your work has been funded by the federal government, because we want to invest in people like you to do this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8777\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"8506\" data-end=\"8523\">Joel Spencer:\u003c/strong> Yes. So our current main funding comes from NIH to study the thymus. And to get one of these grants, as Megan alluded to earlier, it takes many tries — maybe one in ten grants you submit gets funded. We’re constantly thinking about writing new grants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8779\" data-end=\"9058\">Once you submit a grant — which can take months or even years to develop — it gets reviewed, then goes through a funding decision, and finally, maybe a year later, you get the funding to do the work. It’s a long process from submission to award, so we’re always moving forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9060\" data-end=\"9369\">But when the brakes were put on at NIH, it really impacted that whole process. I was unable to submit grants; I thought, what’s the point? They’re not being reviewed. Study sections — the groups of scientists who review grants — were put on hold. So submitting a grant essentially meant it would go nowhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9371\" data-end=\"9631\">We put the brakes on submissions. Now that some of this has restarted, it’s extremely competitive. So yes, we’re currently funded, but our future work — the things we’re learning now that we need more funding to pursue — is extremely competitive and uncertain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9996\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"9633\" data-end=\"9653\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the impact of chaos and funding cuts on America’s medical research field. We’re joined by Megan Molteni, a science writer at STAT News. If you want to read her whole article, including data, it’s titled \u003cem data-start=\"9877\" data-end=\"9994\">“Trump Has Shaken the Hell Out of the Eighty-Year Research Pact Between the Government and Universities. What Now?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"9998\" data-end=\"10179\">We’re also joined by Joel Spencer, associate professor of bioengineering at UC Merced. As we’ve noted, his lab studies the thymus with implications for cancer treatment and aging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10181\" data-end=\"10360\">We’re taking your calls too. Maybe you’re part of a medical trial. Maybe you’re a researcher. Maybe you’re a staffer affected by all of this at one of our research universities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10362\" data-end=\"10490\">The number is 866-733-6786. The email is \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"10403\" data-end=\"10417\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. And on social media — Bluesky, Instagram, Discord — we’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"10492\" data-end=\"10524\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Children as young as 12 can legally work on California’s farms, picking strawberries and pruning blueberry bushes along with a host of other physically demanding jobs. Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Robert J. Lopez spoke with 61 children who work in the fields of the Salinas, Santa Maria, San Joaquin and Pajaro valleys. They described unsafe and unsanitary conditions, extreme heat — and a fear of speaking up, because they can’t afford to lose their jobs. Lopez reports that in California, “enforcement of child labor laws has been inconsistent, the number of workplace safety inspections and citations issued to employers have dropped and repeat offenders were not fined for hundreds of violations of pesticide safety laws.” He joins us to share his reporting, and how the state is responding to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Picking strawberries, apples, cabbages or kale in California’s fields and orchards is hard work — sometimes punishing and dangerous when the weather and heat are bad, with heavy loads to lift and quotas to meet. And yet children are doing this work alongside adults. California allows kids as young as twelve to work in agriculture. But according to an investigation by Capital & Main in partnership with the Los Angeles Times, the state is failing to ensure the children’s health and safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We learn more this hour with Robert J. Lopez, Pulitzer Prize–winning independent journalist and fellow at the McGraw Center for Business Journalism. Robert, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also with us is Erica Diaz Cervantes, a former underage farmworker, now senior policy advocate at the Central Coast Alliance United for a Sustainable Economy, or CAUSE. Erica, welcome to you as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much. Happy to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Glad to have you here. So Robert, how many kids do you estimate work as farmworkers in California’s fields? And I say “estimate,” right, for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it is an estimate because there is really no tracking that’s done comprehensively by government agencies. The work is very transitory, so it’s very hard to know exactly how many young people are out there — but certainly several thousand in California. And elsewhere across the nation, there are others, but I focus solely on California. That’s really about the best estimate we came up with in my talks with experts, examining various studies that have been done by the federal government, surveys and things like that. So I think that’s a fair estimate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And are most of these young people migrants? U.S.-born? What can you tell us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, nearly all the young people I spoke to were born in the United States. Their parents immigrated primarily from Mexico, and these are mixed-status families. By that I mean the children are born here and citizens, and many of the parents are not documented but also work alongside their sons and daughters in the fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Doing what kind of work exactly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It varies. They pick strawberries, as you said. They plant broccoli, plant lettuce, pick broccoli, pick lettuce, pick blueberries. They work in orchards with citrus fruit, stone fruit. They may harvest garlic in the San Joaquin Valley. There are various jobs. And when they’re not planting or picking, they try to get any other work they can get, such as pulling weeds from fields or removing old plastic tarps. Farmworking is not a forty-hour-a-week job. It’s seasonal and dependent on many factors. So families need to survive, and they’ll do whatever work they can get when it’s available.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it that California allows children as young as twelve to work in agriculture like this, when child laborers in other industries are usually required to be fourteen or older?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most instances, California requires minors to be fourteen years old to work. But in agriculture, a child can be as young as twelve and work up to forty hours a week when school is not in session. And the reason is really a complex one that lies in federal law. The Fair Labor Standards Act, which was passed in the late 1930s, initially didn’t include farmworkers. Farmworkers were only included years later, in the 1960s. So it’s really rooted in federal law and goes back several generations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in some states, there is no minimum age. California actually has some of the strongest workplace safety laws in the United States — including outdoor heat laws, child labor regulations, pesticide safety laws. But as I found out in my investigation, many of these are not being enforced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. You would think if the state allows such young workers, the expectation would be that they’d be vigilant about enforcing child labor laws, since kids are more vulnerable in workplaces — power-wise, and then more sensitive to conditions in the fields. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You would think so. But it’s very difficult when, for example, the Bureau of Field Enforcement — this is a state agency that is the frontline unit for enforcing not only child labor laws but wage and hour laws. So when you have fifty-four inspectors, which is what their data showed as of May, responsible for covering the entire state of California — and not just agriculture but more than a half-dozen industries, including car washes, hotels, retail establishments, warehouses — I mean, you just don’t have enough people to create a physical presence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And many of the researchers I talked to at UC Merced and elsewhere who have studied enforcement actions in labor note that when you’re out there giving citations and inspecting worksites, there’s a deterrent effect. People know inspectors may show up. But when there’s no presence at all, then none of that happens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Erica, I want to turn to you because you started working in the fields when you were twelve. What was it like for you? What do you remember about starting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, thank you. Like you mentioned, I started working in the fields with my parents when I was as young as twelve years old. I remember working with my mom — we worked picking green beans. That was our first job. And it wasn’t just myself; it was my brother, who was eleven at the time, and my older sister, who was fourteen. And so it was the three of us working alongside my mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I remember from that summer is just that it was extremely hot. We were covered in multiple layers of clothing to protect us from the exposure of toxic chemicals as well as heat exposure. I remember feeling this pressure to fill up our buckets with green beans as quickly as we could and get it to the truck and make sure our cards were stamped — they were marking the amount of buckets we were filling up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that same job we also picked green tomatoes, and I remember those buckets being extremely heavy. I often tried to carry it myself down these really rugged dirt pathways, but it was a struggle. So oftentimes it was my brother and I carrying about a thirty-pound bucket of tomatoes and trying to pick as quickly as we could to try to make enough money for that day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah — pick as quickly as you can. Because what was the culture in these workplaces? What were the expectations? How did you feel you were treated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I just remember feeling really intimidated by the supervisors, by the crew leaders. There was constant pressure to continue working as quickly as you can. Anytime we tried to take any breaks or even go get some water, it was really discouraged. And we were even reprimanded for doing so because we were wasting productivity time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times my mom would try to help us in terms of being able to match the pace of the rest of the crew so we weren’t falling behind. And I just remember feeling really scared every time we saw the supervisor’s truck come and inspect the fields. Every time he would walk around the crew and watch how we were picking the crops, I felt a really deep sense of fear — like, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I need to pick as fast as I can\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Even though my back was hurting, my knees were hurting, and I felt exhausted already by, you know, eleven a.m. The heat was starting to pick up. I felt like I couldn’t rest at all because I was scared of the punishment we would get if we didn’t continue to pick quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And you were paid per box or per bucket, am I right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So for the buckets, I don’t recall how much they were paying us at the time, but I remember it wasn’t a lot. I remember we had to pick multiple buckets and boxes to be able to earn enough and support my family. And I just remember at the time thinking, you know, I need to work really hard and work really fast and make sure that no attention is being drawn to us — negative attention — because there was this really strong power dynamic between us, being the farmworkers working in the fields, and the supervisors and employers managing the workplaces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Robert, in terms of the things Erica is describing — first of all, how much are the kids you’re talking to today being paid? And does it meet California’s laws around minimum wage, for example?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, first of all, most of the youth I spoke to who worked for piece rate — which is by the unit, as Erica described — shared similar stories: intimidation, worry that if they don’t work fast enough they’re going to get their parents fired, and then they get fired. And in fact that did happen with one young man I interviewed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they told the same types of stories time and again. And the rates vary depending on a lot of factors — the season, the time of year, how much fruit there is in a field. But in some cases, young workers were getting paid $2.40 a box.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two dollars and forty cents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a box of strawberries. And when I say a box, it’s a cardboard box that holds eight of those cartons you buy in a supermarket, for anywhere from five to seven dollars a carton. So eight of those. So they’re getting $2.40. And in some cases, that’s all they got.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the issue is, if you’re an adult, strong, and you can work fast and you’re experienced and a veteran, you can pick a lot of boxes. But young people are not as strong; they don’t work as fast — just as Erica described with her own experience. So as a result, there would be times when they didn’t fill many boxes. And so at the end of the day, they wouldn’t earn the equivalent of minimum wage, which would be a violation of state child labor and labor laws. Because under state law, piece-rate workers, regardless of industry, have to earn the equivalent of at least minimum wage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when that doesn’t happen, that’s a violation of state law. And I heard countless stories from young people — not just in the fields but also in orchards, filling five-hundred-pound crates with grapefruit, lemons, oranges. I heard countless stories in which they talked about earning wages that did not equal minimum wage. This is something I heard from the very beginning when I first started doing my interviews throughout the course of the campaign.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about child farmworkers in California and shining a spotlight on the issues they face. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 10AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Children as young as 12 can legally work on California’s farms, picking strawberries and pruning blueberry bushes along with a host of other physically demanding jobs. Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Robert J. Lopez spoke with 61 children who work in the fields of the Salinas, Santa Maria, San Joaquin and Pajaro valleys. They described unsafe and unsanitary conditions, extreme heat — and a fear of speaking up, because they can’t afford to lose their jobs. Lopez reports that in California, “enforcement of child labor laws has been inconsistent, the number of workplace safety inspections and citations issued to employers have dropped and repeat offenders were not fined for hundreds of violations of pesticide safety laws.” He joins us to share his reporting, and how the state is responding to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> From KQED. Welcome to Forum. I’m Mina Kim. Picking strawberries, apples, cabbages or kale in California’s fields and orchards is hard work — sometimes punishing and dangerous when the weather and heat are bad, with heavy loads to lift and quotas to meet. And yet children are doing this work alongside adults. California allows kids as young as twelve to work in agriculture. But according to an investigation by Capital & Main in partnership with the Los Angeles Times, the state is failing to ensure the children’s health and safety.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We learn more this hour with Robert J. Lopez, Pulitzer Prize–winning independent journalist and fellow at the McGraw Center for Business Journalism. Robert, thanks so much for being with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Also with us is Erica Diaz Cervantes, a former underage farmworker, now senior policy advocate at the Central Coast Alliance United for a Sustainable Economy, or CAUSE. Erica, welcome to you as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you so much. Happy to be here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Glad to have you here. So Robert, how many kids do you estimate work as farmworkers in California’s fields? And I say “estimate,” right, for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, it is an estimate because there is really no tracking that’s done comprehensively by government agencies. The work is very transitory, so it’s very hard to know exactly how many young people are out there — but certainly several thousand in California. And elsewhere across the nation, there are others, but I focus solely on California. That’s really about the best estimate we came up with in my talks with experts, examining various studies that have been done by the federal government, surveys and things like that. So I think that’s a fair estimate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And are most of these young people migrants? U.S.-born? What can you tell us?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, nearly all the young people I spoke to were born in the United States. Their parents immigrated primarily from Mexico, and these are mixed-status families. By that I mean the children are born here and citizens, and many of the parents are not documented but also work alongside their sons and daughters in the fields.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Doing what kind of work exactly?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It varies. They pick strawberries, as you said. They plant broccoli, plant lettuce, pick broccoli, pick lettuce, pick blueberries. They work in orchards with citrus fruit, stone fruit. They may harvest garlic in the San Joaquin Valley. There are various jobs. And when they’re not planting or picking, they try to get any other work they can get, such as pulling weeds from fields or removing old plastic tarps. Farmworking is not a forty-hour-a-week job. It’s seasonal and dependent on many factors. So families need to survive, and they’ll do whatever work they can get when it’s available.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why is it that California allows children as young as twelve to work in agriculture like this, when child laborers in other industries are usually required to be fourteen or older?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most instances, California requires minors to be fourteen years old to work. But in agriculture, a child can be as young as twelve and work up to forty hours a week when school is not in session. And the reason is really a complex one that lies in federal law. The Fair Labor Standards Act, which was passed in the late 1930s, initially didn’t include farmworkers. Farmworkers were only included years later, in the 1960s. So it’s really rooted in federal law and goes back several generations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in some states, there is no minimum age. California actually has some of the strongest workplace safety laws in the United States — including outdoor heat laws, child labor regulations, pesticide safety laws. But as I found out in my investigation, many of these are not being enforced.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. You would think if the state allows such young workers, the expectation would be that they’d be vigilant about enforcing child labor laws, since kids are more vulnerable in workplaces — power-wise, and then more sensitive to conditions in the fields. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You would think so. But it’s very difficult when, for example, the Bureau of Field Enforcement — this is a state agency that is the frontline unit for enforcing not only child labor laws but wage and hour laws. So when you have fifty-four inspectors, which is what their data showed as of May, responsible for covering the entire state of California — and not just agriculture but more than a half-dozen industries, including car washes, hotels, retail establishments, warehouses — I mean, you just don’t have enough people to create a physical presence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And many of the researchers I talked to at UC Merced and elsewhere who have studied enforcement actions in labor note that when you’re out there giving citations and inspecting worksites, there’s a deterrent effect. People know inspectors may show up. But when there’s no presence at all, then none of that happens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Erica, I want to turn to you because you started working in the fields when you were twelve. What was it like for you? What do you remember about starting?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, thank you. Like you mentioned, I started working in the fields with my parents when I was as young as twelve years old. I remember working with my mom — we worked picking green beans. That was our first job. And it wasn’t just myself; it was my brother, who was eleven at the time, and my older sister, who was fourteen. And so it was the three of us working alongside my mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What I remember from that summer is just that it was extremely hot. We were covered in multiple layers of clothing to protect us from the exposure of toxic chemicals as well as heat exposure. I remember feeling this pressure to fill up our buckets with green beans as quickly as we could and get it to the truck and make sure our cards were stamped — they were marking the amount of buckets we were filling up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In that same job we also picked green tomatoes, and I remember those buckets being extremely heavy. I often tried to carry it myself down these really rugged dirt pathways, but it was a struggle. So oftentimes it was my brother and I carrying about a thirty-pound bucket of tomatoes and trying to pick as quickly as we could to try to make enough money for that day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah — pick as quickly as you can. Because what was the culture in these workplaces? What were the expectations? How did you feel you were treated?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. I just remember feeling really intimidated by the supervisors, by the crew leaders. There was constant pressure to continue working as quickly as you can. Anytime we tried to take any breaks or even go get some water, it was really discouraged. And we were even reprimanded for doing so because we were wasting productivity time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A lot of times my mom would try to help us in terms of being able to match the pace of the rest of the crew so we weren’t falling behind. And I just remember feeling really scared every time we saw the supervisor’s truck come and inspect the fields. Every time he would walk around the crew and watch how we were picking the crops, I felt a really deep sense of fear — like, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I need to pick as fast as I can\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Even though my back was hurting, my knees were hurting, and I felt exhausted already by, you know, eleven a.m. The heat was starting to pick up. I felt like I couldn’t rest at all because I was scared of the punishment we would get if we didn’t continue to pick quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And you were paid per box or per bucket, am I right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Erica Diaz Cervantes:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So for the buckets, I don’t recall how much they were paying us at the time, but I remember it wasn’t a lot. I remember we had to pick multiple buckets and boxes to be able to earn enough and support my family. And I just remember at the time thinking, you know, I need to work really hard and work really fast and make sure that no attention is being drawn to us — negative attention — because there was this really strong power dynamic between us, being the farmworkers working in the fields, and the supervisors and employers managing the workplaces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Robert, in terms of the things Erica is describing — first of all, how much are the kids you’re talking to today being paid? And does it meet California’s laws around minimum wage, for example?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, first of all, most of the youth I spoke to who worked for piece rate — which is by the unit, as Erica described — shared similar stories: intimidation, worry that if they don’t work fast enough they’re going to get their parents fired, and then they get fired. And in fact that did happen with one young man I interviewed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they told the same types of stories time and again. And the rates vary depending on a lot of factors — the season, the time of year, how much fruit there is in a field. But in some cases, young workers were getting paid $2.40 a box.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Two dollars and forty cents.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robert J. Lopez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a box of strawberries. And when I say a box, it’s a cardboard box that holds eight of those cartons you buy in a supermarket, for anywhere from five to seven dollars a carton. So eight of those. So they’re getting $2.40. And in some cases, that’s all they got.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the issue is, if you’re an adult, strong, and you can work fast and you’re experienced and a veteran, you can pick a lot of boxes. But young people are not as strong; they don’t work as fast — just as Erica described with her own experience. So as a result, there would be times when they didn’t fill many boxes. And so at the end of the day, they wouldn’t earn the equivalent of minimum wage, which would be a violation of state child labor and labor laws. Because under state law, piece-rate workers, regardless of industry, have to earn the equivalent of at least minimum wage.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So when that doesn’t happen, that’s a violation of state law. And I heard countless stories from young people — not just in the fields but also in orchards, filling five-hundred-pound crates with grapefruit, lemons, oranges. I heard countless stories in which they talked about earning wages that did not equal minimum wage. This is something I heard from the very beginning when I first started doing my interviews throughout the course of the campaign.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mina Kim:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about child farmworkers in California and shining a spotlight on the issues they face. More after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, December 9 at 9AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In California, mobile homes make up to 6% of the state’s housing stock. With as many as 300,000 homes in 5,000 mobile home parks in the state, they play a critical role in providing affordable housing. But state laws and efforts by for-profit developers to buy up mobile home communities are putting this kind of housing at risk. We talk to experts about the challenges mobile home owners face.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. In California, mobile homes make up, say, six percent of the state’s housing stock, with as many as three hundred thousand homes and five thousand mobile home parks in the state. These places are a crucial part of the state’s affordable housing picture. Though few have been built in recent decades, the mobile home parks that do exist are facing pressure from private equity firms that have found ways to squeeze a few more dollars out of people on the lower end of the income scale. But residents who’ve often been in a community for years are fighting back too to preserve their places in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining us to help us understand the issues that mobile home park residents face, we’ve got Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with the California Rural Law Center. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Good morning. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for joining us. We’ve got Bruce Stanton, general counsel for the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Good morning. Thanks. Good to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good to have you. And we’ve got Randy Keller, who’s the manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperation Development. Welcome, Randy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Randy Keller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good morning. Thank you for having me on your show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Mariah, let’s go with you first. As a senior litigator there at the Rural Law Center, you’ve been working with mobile home communities for quite some time, over a decade. What are the kinds of communities that you end up representing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thank you. So California Rural Legal Assistance is a statewide nonprofit legal aid. We’ve been around for about sixty years assisting rural Californians with all sorts of issues, including housing. My clients tend to be on the, on the margins of, when it comes to homeownerships in terms of, economics. So we typically represent farm workers, residents with a fixed income, seniors, folks that are at or below the two hundred percent of the poverty line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And what are the kinds of economics of the communities that these folks are living in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So, traditionally, mobile home parks have been one of the last, you know, kind of bastions of affordable housing throughout the country and across California. You know, there’s currently over three hundred and seventy-five thousand mobile home park spaces in California representing about five thousand parks. And, typically, the folks in these communities are, you know, families, folks living on fixed incomes, a lot of veterans and seniors, and folks that have been able to have access to homeownership because mobile homes have typically been fairly affordable. You know, I’ve had many clients that have acquired their homes directly from the prior owner for under ten thousand dollars or around ten thousand dollars. And the clients that I represent, they’re typically living in mobile homes that are from the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, and are more of an aging housing stock.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And in this case, okay, they own the home. But by that, you mean they literally own the building — like, the four walls. Wherever that home is, they don’t own the land, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most circumstances, yes. When we’re talking about parks, they are typically renting the property that is beneath the home, but they do own the home. The thing that makes mobile home parks different is that the home, despite the name, is not usually movable. So they own an asset that is fixed in place, but they don’t own the land that it’s affixed to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, Bruce Stanton, you know, there are all kinds of different mobile home communities, each with their own particularities. What are mobile home communities in the Bay Area like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, thanks. And I would just say Mariah really, I think, explained well what sort of an industry we have here. Parks can range from as small as ten to twenty spaces to as large as over eight hundred spaces. You know, typically, a park has common area facilities such as clubhouse, swimming pool, sauna, laundry rooms. There’s gonna be overflow or guest parking in most parks. Sometimes there’s special amenities provided like a dog run or something, and there’s a few parks that even have very unique features such as a house and an older building that’s part of the park property. But what we are finding is there are less and less mom-and-pop park owners and an increasing number of larger corporations, some of them even out of state, that are acquiring parks because they’re seen as a real cash flow bonus for them — you know, that the homeowners are basically renting dirt on which they place their personal property structure that they have, you know, complete obligation to repair and keep up. They pay mortgage and, you know, loan fees, whereas the park’s responsibility is the infrastructure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are those companies — I’ve been wondering — so are those companies starting to vertically integrate? Like, do they offer loans now too in addition to renting the thing? Or are they pretty much sticking with that traditional business model of just renting the dirt, as you put it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are pretty much sticking to the traditional model, but in the process of that, they’re looking for ways to increase cash flow. And if they’re purchasing a park in a rent-stabilized jurisdiction — which there are currently just over one hundred cities and counties throughout California that have some form of mobile home rent stabilization — they’re looking for ways to decontrol the spaces. You know, that could be, in the most extreme case, an eviction or otherwise challenging the ordinance. Or something that Mariah and I are all too familiar with is filing petitions or applications for fair return under the ordinances, seeking to increase beyond what the annual rent adjustments the ordinance allows are, by saying, you know, we’re not getting a fair return, we’re not keeping up. And sometimes these petitions get filed literally within months of the new park owner taking ownership, which is pretty interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So do all these mobile home parks — are they all subject to some kind of rent stabilization or rent control, or just some subset of them? And what is the subset of them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There is no state rent regulation for mobile home parks. It’s a creature of local regulation by city or county. And as I mentioned, there’s literally about, at this point, maybe a hundred six or a hundred and seven such ordinances. I don’t have a breakdown at my fingertips for the number of spaces that covers, but most of the ordinances are located in the coastal, higher-density jurisdictions where there are more parks. For example, I think San Jose has the most parks within its city limits — it has sixty-five parks. The Central Valley area, the more conservative, property-rights-centric area, is where there is no rent stabilization, and those residents basically are subject to paying whatever the park owner says they want.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the problem is mobility. These are — the key is these are captive folks. You know, if the rent goes up, it’s not like you’re renting an apartment or a condominium and you can just pack up and move down the road. Mobile homes are really immobile homes in immobile home parks, and the courts have recognized the captivity of mobile home residents. There’s one famous quote from a Ninth Circuit court opinion that says the park owners have the residents “over a barrel.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about mobile homes, a critical component of the affordable housing picture in California, including here in the Bay Area. Joined by Bruce Stanton, general counsel with Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; Mariah Thompson, a senior litigator with California Rural Law Center; Randy Keller, whose manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development. We want to hear from you too. Maybe you live in one of the Bay Area’s many mobile home communities. What are the sort of joys and challenges of living there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s bring in Mary Currie, who’s a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, just tell us a little bit about your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s a sixty-three-acre property here in Novato, and it started as a mobile home park back in the sixties. And in nineteen ninety-seven, the city of Novato took ownership — took title to the property — which is a little different than most mobile home parks. I think we’re the only one owned by a city here in California. But we have three hundred and thirteen units and about four hundred and twenty-five people. And it’s a community — capital bold “community.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Capital C. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And it’s really, it’s an amazing place to live. I was attracted to moving here. I lived in San Anselmo for a long time, and I needed to downsize and generate some funds to help take care of my mother. And it was just a perfect fit for me. I’ve been here for about four and a half years. And we have a lot of people that have been here for thirty or more years. I mean, it’s really an amazing place. It’s filled with a lot of different backgrounds. We’ve got, you know, teachers, nurses, architects — a range of professionals. And one thing that’s very interesting here is that ninety-one percent of our residents, in a survey that was done two years ago, are low income. Marin County low income is about a hundred and nine thousand dollars a year for one person. So we have a lot of people living right on the edge, check to check.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our community is over fifty-five. And this place is so amazing because of the commitment that people have to bringing interesting programs. One of the recent ones is we have a park market. We connected with a nonprofit called ExtraFood, and we provide food four days a week through a volunteer program here in the park where people can come get food that is donated by various markets in the area. And that’s bringing people about a hundred and fifty or more dollars a week to their food budget.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And those are the kind of services we need here. We’ve got lectures, exercise classes, and a swimming pool. I mean, this place is amazing. I mean, I’m always pinching myself. I’m out walking in the morning, and it’s just such a great place to live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are talking about mobile homes, this critical component of the affordable housing picture in California. Joined by Mary Curry, who is a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. We’ve got Randy Keller, manufactured home parks acquisitions and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development; Bruce Stanton, general counsel with the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; and Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with California Rural Law Center. Of course, we want to invite you in as well. Would you move into a mobile home? Maybe you’re in a mobile home community now. Let us know how life is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. In California, mobile homes make up, say, six percent of the state’s housing stock, with as many as three hundred thousand homes and five thousand mobile home parks in the state. These places are a crucial part of the state’s affordable housing picture. Though few have been built in recent decades, the mobile home parks that do exist are facing pressure from private equity firms that have found ways to squeeze a few more dollars out of people on the lower end of the income scale. But residents who’ve often been in a community for years are fighting back too to preserve their places in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Joining us to help us understand the issues that mobile home park residents face, we’ve got Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with the California Rural Law Center. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Good morning. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for joining us. We’ve got Bruce Stanton, general counsel for the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Good morning. Thanks. Good to be with you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good to have you. And we’ve got Randy Keller, who’s the manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperation Development. Welcome, Randy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Randy Keller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good morning. Thank you for having me on your show.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Mariah, let’s go with you first. As a senior litigator there at the Rural Law Center, you’ve been working with mobile home communities for quite some time, over a decade. What are the kinds of communities that you end up representing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Thank you. So California Rural Legal Assistance is a statewide nonprofit legal aid. We’ve been around for about sixty years assisting rural Californians with all sorts of issues, including housing. My clients tend to be on the, on the margins of, when it comes to homeownerships in terms of, economics. So we typically represent farm workers, residents with a fixed income, seniors, folks that are at or below the two hundred percent of the poverty line.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And what are the kinds of economics of the communities that these folks are living in?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So, traditionally, mobile home parks have been one of the last, you know, kind of bastions of affordable housing throughout the country and across California. You know, there’s currently over three hundred and seventy-five thousand mobile home park spaces in California representing about five thousand parks. And, typically, the folks in these communities are, you know, families, folks living on fixed incomes, a lot of veterans and seniors, and folks that have been able to have access to homeownership because mobile homes have typically been fairly affordable. You know, I’ve had many clients that have acquired their homes directly from the prior owner for under ten thousand dollars or around ten thousand dollars. And the clients that I represent, they’re typically living in mobile homes that are from the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies, and are more of an aging housing stock.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And in this case, okay, they own the home. But by that, you mean they literally own the building — like, the four walls. Wherever that home is, they don’t own the land, right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mariah Thompson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In most circumstances, yes. When we’re talking about parks, they are typically renting the property that is beneath the home, but they do own the home. The thing that makes mobile home parks different is that the home, despite the name, is not usually movable. So they own an asset that is fixed in place, but they don’t own the land that it’s affixed to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, Bruce Stanton, you know, there are all kinds of different mobile home communities, each with their own particularities. What are mobile home communities in the Bay Area like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, thanks. And I would just say Mariah really, I think, explained well what sort of an industry we have here. Parks can range from as small as ten to twenty spaces to as large as over eight hundred spaces. You know, typically, a park has common area facilities such as clubhouse, swimming pool, sauna, laundry rooms. There’s gonna be overflow or guest parking in most parks. Sometimes there’s special amenities provided like a dog run or something, and there’s a few parks that even have very unique features such as a house and an older building that’s part of the park property. But what we are finding is there are less and less mom-and-pop park owners and an increasing number of larger corporations, some of them even out of state, that are acquiring parks because they’re seen as a real cash flow bonus for them — you know, that the homeowners are basically renting dirt on which they place their personal property structure that they have, you know, complete obligation to repair and keep up. They pay mortgage and, you know, loan fees, whereas the park’s responsibility is the infrastructure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are those companies — I’ve been wondering — so are those companies starting to vertically integrate? Like, do they offer loans now too in addition to renting the thing? Or are they pretty much sticking with that traditional business model of just renting the dirt, as you put it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They are pretty much sticking to the traditional model, but in the process of that, they’re looking for ways to increase cash flow. And if they’re purchasing a park in a rent-stabilized jurisdiction — which there are currently just over one hundred cities and counties throughout California that have some form of mobile home rent stabilization — they’re looking for ways to decontrol the spaces. You know, that could be, in the most extreme case, an eviction or otherwise challenging the ordinance. Or something that Mariah and I are all too familiar with is filing petitions or applications for fair return under the ordinances, seeking to increase beyond what the annual rent adjustments the ordinance allows are, by saying, you know, we’re not getting a fair return, we’re not keeping up. And sometimes these petitions get filed literally within months of the new park owner taking ownership, which is pretty interesting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So do all these mobile home parks — are they all subject to some kind of rent stabilization or rent control, or just some subset of them? And what is the subset of them?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bruce Stanton:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. There is no state rent regulation for mobile home parks. It’s a creature of local regulation by city or county. And as I mentioned, there’s literally about, at this point, maybe a hundred six or a hundred and seven such ordinances. I don’t have a breakdown at my fingertips for the number of spaces that covers, but most of the ordinances are located in the coastal, higher-density jurisdictions where there are more parks. For example, I think San Jose has the most parks within its city limits — it has sixty-five parks. The Central Valley area, the more conservative, property-rights-centric area, is where there is no rent stabilization, and those residents basically are subject to paying whatever the park owner says they want.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the problem is mobility. These are — the key is these are captive folks. You know, if the rent goes up, it’s not like you’re renting an apartment or a condominium and you can just pack up and move down the road. Mobile homes are really immobile homes in immobile home parks, and the courts have recognized the captivity of mobile home residents. There’s one famous quote from a Ninth Circuit court opinion that says the park owners have the residents “over a barrel.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about mobile homes, a critical component of the affordable housing picture in California, including here in the Bay Area. Joined by Bruce Stanton, general counsel with Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; Mariah Thompson, a senior litigator with California Rural Law Center; Randy Keller, whose manufactured home parks acquisition and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development. We want to hear from you too. Maybe you live in one of the Bay Area’s many mobile home communities. What are the sort of joys and challenges of living there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s bring in Mary Currie, who’s a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, just tell us a little bit about your community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, it’s a sixty-three-acre property here in Novato, and it started as a mobile home park back in the sixties. And in nineteen ninety-seven, the city of Novato took ownership — took title to the property — which is a little different than most mobile home parks. I think we’re the only one owned by a city here in California. But we have three hundred and thirteen units and about four hundred and twenty-five people. And it’s a community — capital bold “community.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. Capital C. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Mary Currie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. And it’s really, it’s an amazing place to live. I was attracted to moving here. I lived in San Anselmo for a long time, and I needed to downsize and generate some funds to help take care of my mother. And it was just a perfect fit for me. I’ve been here for about four and a half years. And we have a lot of people that have been here for thirty or more years. I mean, it’s really an amazing place. It’s filled with a lot of different backgrounds. We’ve got, you know, teachers, nurses, architects — a range of professionals. And one thing that’s very interesting here is that ninety-one percent of our residents, in a survey that was done two years ago, are low income. Marin County low income is about a hundred and nine thousand dollars a year for one person. So we have a lot of people living right on the edge, check to check.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our community is over fifty-five. And this place is so amazing because of the commitment that people have to bringing interesting programs. One of the recent ones is we have a park market. We connected with a nonprofit called ExtraFood, and we provide food four days a week through a volunteer program here in the park where people can come get food that is donated by various markets in the area. And that’s bringing people about a hundred and fifty or more dollars a week to their food budget.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And those are the kind of services we need here. We’ve got lectures, exercise classes, and a swimming pool. I mean, this place is amazing. I mean, I’m always pinching myself. I’m out walking in the morning, and it’s just such a great place to live.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are talking about mobile homes, this critical component of the affordable housing picture in California. Joined by Mary Curry, who is a resident of the Marin Valley Mobile Country Club in Novato. We’ve got Randy Keller, manufactured home parks acquisitions and advocacy manager with the California Center for Cooperative Development; Bruce Stanton, general counsel with the Golden State Manufactured Homeowners League; and Mariah Thompson, senior litigator with California Rural Law Center. Of course, we want to invite you in as well. Would you move into a mobile home? Maybe you’re in a mobile home community now. Let us know how life is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
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"tagline": "Politics from a personal perspective",
"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"possible": {
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"pri-the-world": {
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"title": "PRI's The World: Latest Edition",
"info": "Each weekday, host Marco Werman and his team of producers bring you the world's most interesting stories in an hour of radio that reminds us just how small our planet really is.",
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},
"radiolab": {
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"title": "Radiolab",
"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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},
"reveal": {
"id": "reveal",
"title": "Reveal",
"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/",
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},
"rightnowish": {
"id": "rightnowish",
"title": "Rightnowish",
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