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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 31 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Is emphasizing the cold, hard facts of climate change – the acres lost to sea level rise, the percentage increase of global warming – actually the right approach for getting people to act? “If we want climate progress in energy, transportation and agriculture, we need progress in pop culture, media and sports,” writes longtime energy and climate reporter Sammy Roth. Roth and climate media advocates argue that seeing electric vehicles in movies like “Barbie,” induction stoves on HGTV or a whole team protesting an oil company in “Ted Lasso” show how climate conscious realities can easily exist — and inspire viewers to advocate and take action. We’ll talk about why storytelling in film, TV and advertising has such a powerful sway over us, and take stock of the landscape of climate change depictions on your screens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Laura Klivens, in for Mina Kim. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. I’ve written about wildfires, heat waves, the strain on our energy grid, and I read plenty of stories that hold powerful groups accountable or report on system failures. Those stories are necessary, but are they enough?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the people who may not read that kind of reporting, how else can climate messages be shared? There’s this episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where one character realizes his team’s sponsor is connected to an oil company causing destruction in his home country of Nigeria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ted Lasso (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dubai Air is owned by a horrible company, one that has turned the southern coast of Nigeria, my home, into a hellish, fiery swamp. I can no longer wear that name on my chest. Never again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He starts a movement among the whole team, and they put duct tape over the fictitious sponsor’s name on their jerseys. It’s a climate message without saying too much about being a climate message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It turns out there’s a whole network of people intentionally bringing climate into the entertainment industry this way—directors, TV writers, advertisers. Can inspiring action on climate be more effective when we approach the issue through culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll break that down today. Joining us are Sammy Roth, author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Climate Colored Goggles\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a newsletter about climate and culture; Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, national climate strategist, founder of Climate Critical, and board member of Good Energy, an organization focused on Hollywood climate storytelling; and Jessica Kutz, lead climate reporter at The 19th. Welcome, everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Happy to be here, Laura.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great. Thank you all for being here. I want to start off with a story I thought was really impressive—that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> example. What’s one great climate story each of you has recently seen on film or TV? Sammy, can we start with you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, that’s such a good question. I recently wrote a piece about the new Pixar film \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m glad you brought up the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> episode, by the way, because that’s such a fabulous example and one of my favorites as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I would say, is even less explicit. There’s no oil company, no story centered on a heat wave or renewable energy—nothing you can directly point to as a climate plotline. But if folks haven’t seen it yet, it’s about animals coming together to stop a freeway overpass from destroying a forest glade, one of the last protected wild spaces outside a city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The movie keeps poking fun at human car culture and the drive for bigger roads and bigger cars. There’s even a joke that the freeway would only get people places up to four minutes faster. The city is called Beaverton, named after the beavers who are the main characters, and the proposed “Beaverton Loop” would literally connect Beaverton to itself—a truly pointless freeway project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The main human character is a teenage girl who loves nature and wildlife. She uses this fictional technology to “hop” into the mind of one of the beavers and help them protect their habitat. It’s a great parable about development and whether humans can learn to value things beyond their own convenience and consumption. There’s even a fire at the end. It’s a fabulous story, and I’d recommend people go see it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, thank you. Tamara, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, I’m such a nerd about this stuff. Over the holiday season, two films unexpectedly brought climate change into the story in ways I thought were both subtle and really effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of them was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Turkey Hollow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, narrated by Ludacris. It’s a classic Muppet film where the villain is basically a large-scale industrial farmer, and the hero is one of those “darn environmentalists.” It just drops into the plot at the beginning and then moves on naturally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dashing Through the Snow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the Christmas movie with Lil Rel Howery as Santa Claus. At one point, Santa mentions that they stopped putting coal in stockings because it’s bad for the climate, so now everyone gets cauliflower instead. I loved that. I even went online afterward just to say I saw that moment and appreciated it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s great. I love that. Jessica, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a story I recently wrote on climate change and storytelling, someone brought up an episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grey’s Anatomy\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> centered on a heat dome. It was meant to mirror the one that hit the Pacific Northwest in 2021.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The episode focused on the public health impacts and how a hospital responds during an extreme heat event. I really connected with it because I live in Tucson, where we recently had one of our earliest 100-degree days on record, and we’re only a couple hours from Phoenix. Heat is always on my mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was interesting to see a weather event like that dramatized for a larger audience. I don’t even think they explicitly mentioned climate change, but it really captured a situation people have lived through recently.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tamara, what element of storytelling do you think makes these stories effective, especially compared with the doom-and-gloom headlines we often see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As I mentioned, I’m on the board of Good Energy, which is a fantastic group working to improve climate storytelling. They came up with something called the climate reality check, which is basically a test for whether climate is actually present in a story and whether it matters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are three parts: first, the story is set on Earth. Second, the story acknowledges that climate change is happening, or has happened if it’s set in the future. Third, there’s a character who recognizes it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really useful shorthand for asking whether climate change is meaningfully present in a film. In both of the examples I mentioned, climate was tied directly to characters and plot, even in subtle ways.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So you’d be fine with the cauliflower stocking?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I love cauliflower.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sammy, why do these smaller, passing references matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They matter because, if you look at polling, most Americans say they care about climate change and are concerned about it. A large majority say they support climate action and clean energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when people are asked how high a priority climate is when they vote, it ranks much lower—behind the economy, immigration, and many other issues. So the more reminders people get in everyday life, the more it stays present in their minds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. We’re talking about climate storytelling and the role of entertainment in conversations about climate change with Sammy Roth, Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, and Jessica Kutz, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What have you noticed about how climate change is discussed or represented in film and TV? Did you watch \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t Look Up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">? Do you have opinions on that? Have you made changes based on climate stories you’ve seen? Give us a call at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Forum\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m Laura Klivens, in for Mina Kim. I’m a climate reporter here at KQED. I’ve written about wildfires, heat waves, the strain on our energy grid, and I read plenty of stories that hold powerful groups accountable or report on system failures. Those stories are necessary, but are they enough?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For the people who may not read that kind of reporting, how else can climate messages be shared? There’s this episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> where one character realizes his team’s sponsor is connected to an oil company causing destruction in his home country of Nigeria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ted Lasso (clip):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Dubai Air is owned by a horrible company, one that has turned the southern coast of Nigeria, my home, into a hellish, fiery swamp. I can no longer wear that name on my chest. Never again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He starts a movement among the whole team, and they put duct tape over the fictitious sponsor’s name on their jerseys. It’s a climate message without saying too much about being a climate message.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It turns out there’s a whole network of people intentionally bringing climate into the entertainment industry this way—directors, TV writers, advertisers. Can inspiring action on climate be more effective when we approach the issue through culture?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’ll break that down today. Joining us are Sammy Roth, author of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Climate Colored Goggles\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a newsletter about climate and culture; Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, national climate strategist, founder of Climate Critical, and board member of Good Energy, an organization focused on Hollywood climate storytelling; and Jessica Kutz, lead climate reporter at The 19th. Welcome, everybody.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Happy to be here, Laura.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Great. Thank you all for being here. I want to start off with a story I thought was really impressive—that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> example. What’s one great climate story each of you has recently seen on film or TV? Sammy, can we start with you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, that’s such a good question. I recently wrote a piece about the new Pixar film \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. I’m glad you brought up the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ted Lasso\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> episode, by the way, because that’s such a fabulous example and one of my favorites as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hoppers\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, I would say, is even less explicit. There’s no oil company, no story centered on a heat wave or renewable energy—nothing you can directly point to as a climate plotline. But if folks haven’t seen it yet, it’s about animals coming together to stop a freeway overpass from destroying a forest glade, one of the last protected wild spaces outside a city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The movie keeps poking fun at human car culture and the drive for bigger roads and bigger cars. There’s even a joke that the freeway would only get people places up to four minutes faster. The city is called Beaverton, named after the beavers who are the main characters, and the proposed “Beaverton Loop” would literally connect Beaverton to itself—a truly pointless freeway project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The main human character is a teenage girl who loves nature and wildlife. She uses this fictional technology to “hop” into the mind of one of the beavers and help them protect their habitat. It’s a great parable about development and whether humans can learn to value things beyond their own convenience and consumption. There’s even a fire at the end. It’s a fabulous story, and I’d recommend people go see it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, thank you. Tamara, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh my gosh, I’m such a nerd about this stuff. Over the holiday season, two films unexpectedly brought climate change into the story in ways I thought were both subtle and really effective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of them was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Turkey Hollow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, narrated by Ludacris. It’s a classic Muppet film where the villain is basically a large-scale industrial farmer, and the hero is one of those “darn environmentalists.” It just drops into the plot at the beginning and then moves on naturally.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Dashing Through the Snow\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, the Christmas movie with Lil Rel Howery as Santa Claus. At one point, Santa mentions that they stopped putting coal in stockings because it’s bad for the climate, so now everyone gets cauliflower instead. I loved that. I even went online afterward just to say I saw that moment and appreciated it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s great. I love that. Jessica, what about you?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kutz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In a story I recently wrote on climate change and storytelling, someone brought up an episode of \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Grey’s Anatomy\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> centered on a heat dome. It was meant to mirror the one that hit the Pacific Northwest in 2021.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The episode focused on the public health impacts and how a hospital responds during an extreme heat event. I really connected with it because I live in Tucson, where we recently had one of our earliest 100-degree days on record, and we’re only a couple hours from Phoenix. Heat is always on my mind.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was interesting to see a weather event like that dramatized for a larger audience. I don’t even think they explicitly mentioned climate change, but it really captured a situation people have lived through recently.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Tamara, what element of storytelling do you think makes these stories effective, especially compared with the doom-and-gloom headlines we often see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> As I mentioned, I’m on the board of Good Energy, which is a fantastic group working to improve climate storytelling. They came up with something called the climate reality check, which is basically a test for whether climate is actually present in a story and whether it matters.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are three parts: first, the story is set on Earth. Second, the story acknowledges that climate change is happening, or has happened if it’s set in the future. Third, there’s a character who recognizes it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a really useful shorthand for asking whether climate change is meaningfully present in a film. In both of the examples I mentioned, climate was tied directly to characters and plot, even in subtle ways.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So you’d be fine with the cauliflower stocking?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tamara Toles O’Loughlin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Absolutely. I love cauliflower.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sammy, why do these smaller, passing references matter?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sammy Roth:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They matter because, if you look at polling, most Americans say they care about climate change and are concerned about it. A large majority say they support climate action and clean energy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But when people are asked how high a priority climate is when they vote, it ranks much lower—behind the economy, immigration, and many other issues. So the more reminders people get in everyday life, the more it stays present in their minds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laura Klivens:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thank you. We’re talking about climate storytelling and the role of entertainment in conversations about climate change with Sammy Roth, Tamara Toles O’Loughlin, and Jessica Kutz, and we want to hear from you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What have you noticed about how climate change is discussed or represented in film and TV? Did you watch \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Don’t Look Up\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">? Do you have opinions on that? Have you made changes based on climate stories you’ve seen? Give us a call at 866-733-6786.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Tuesday, March 31 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Education funding for California’s public schools is one of the largest parts of the state budget. Yet districts across the state, and here in the Bay Area, are struggling to stay afloat. Santa Rosa’s school district is considering laying off hundreds of teachers and closing a quarter of its campuses in response to a severe financial crisis and Oakland schools, just a year after emerging from more than 20 years under state receivership, are also facing possible financial insolvency. Declining enrollment, resistance to school closures, and pressure to raise staff salaries are just a few of the many factors contributing to the strain. We’ll examine what’s driving these challenges, what it’ll take to stabilize the system, and what this all means for Bay Area communities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. People are used to hearing about challenges facing big urban school districts. Oakland was in state receivership for more than twenty years beginning in the early 2000s, and San Francisco’s school problems have received a huge amount of attention locally and nationally. But the truth is that many school districts are in trouble, including smaller ones like Santa Rosa in Sonoma County.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here to fill us in on what’s going on up there is Adriana Gutierrez, an education and child welfare reporter for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Press Democrat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in Santa Rosa. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what’s going on with the school district up there? Give us a bit of the budget background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. They’ve had budget issues for probably the last decade, especially in the last five years. Over the past year, things really came to a head. The district’s financial situation became so dire that it was on the verge of entering state receivership, which is when California essentially takes control of a district for up to a decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve managed to avoid that for now through massive cuts, including significant school closures—six schools in two years—and the layoff of about 270 staff members over that same period, with possibly more to come.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. What are the main factors here? Is it mostly fewer students—since funding is tied to enrollment—or is it more about spending?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s both. Like many districts in California, Santa Rosa City Schools is experiencing declining enrollment. They’ve lost about 3,000 students over the past decade and now serve just under 12,000 students, down from about 15,000. Since enrollment drives revenue, that’s a major loss.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, they’ve struggled to control expenditures, especially staffing costs. After the pandemic, districts received a surge of funding to support academics and mental health, which led to hiring more staff. But when that one-time funding ran out, they were left with costs they couldn’t sustain. So now expenditures far outpace declining revenues, creating a structural deficit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do we know why enrollment has declined specifically in Santa Rosa?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are several factors. Statewide, demographics are shifting—families are having fewer children. Locally, COVID played a role, but even before that, there were devastating wildfires, including the Tubbs Fire, which displaced many families.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More recently, in 2023, a student was fatally stabbed on a Santa Rosa City Schools campus. That sparked major concerns about safety and led some families to leave the district.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What about rising costs? Sonoma County is expensive. Is this partly a situation where districts have to pay more to retain teachers?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s definitely part of the conversation. Sonoma County is one of the most expensive places to live, and teachers say they should be paid more. Even Michael Fine, CEO of the Fiscal Crisis and Management Assistance Team (FCMAT), has said that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the issue is sustainability. If a district agrees to salary increases it can’t afford long term, that’s when financial problems arise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What has district leadership said over the years about managing the budget?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s been a lot of turnover. Every few years, leadership attempts to address the budget. Before I started covering the district in 2023, they had already made a round of cuts, and then the following year, they laid off about 90 staff members in anticipation of worsening conditions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem has been sustaining those cuts. When the district receives temporary funding increases—like cost-of-living adjustments—they sometimes restore positions, only to face deficits again later. The current board president says they’re trying to break that cycle by making cuts and sticking to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of your reporting suggests there were also technical challenges—like projecting enrollment or forecasting state funding. Do you think this was more about those issues, or about reluctance to make difficult cuts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> District leaders have acknowledged both. The interim superintendent, Lisa August, frequently says these cuts are painful. But with the real threat of state receivership—where leadership could be replaced—they’ve recognized the urgency of making and sustaining tough decisions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In other districts, people often point to rising administrative costs. Has that been an issue here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, that’s been a point of contention. The teachers union has been vocal about administrative salaries. That said, Santa Rosa’s leadership compensation isn’t unusually high compared to other districts in the county—some smaller districts actually pay more because administrators take on multiple roles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Still, the district has reduced central office staff. This year, about ten positions were cut as part of roughly 170 layoffs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are Santa Rosa’s problems unique, or are they representative of a broader trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a mix. Some factors are specific—like wildfires and local decisions—but others reflect broader issues. One example is pandemic-era funding. Districts were encouraged to use one-time federal money to hire staff and expand services, which Santa Rosa did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that funding wasn’t permanent, and once it disappeared, districts were left with costs they couldn’t sustain. So you see both external pressures and internal missteps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about the budget crisis facing Bay Area public schools, starting with Santa Rosa. Our guest is Adriana Gutierrez, education and child welfare reporter for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Press Democrat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also want to hear from you. Have you been affected by school closures? How do you think your local district is managing its budget? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email forum@kqed.org or find us on social media.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Welcome to Forum. I’m Alexis Madrigal. People are used to hearing about challenges facing big urban school districts. Oakland was in state receivership for more than twenty years beginning in the early 2000s, and San Francisco’s school problems have received a huge amount of attention locally and nationally. But the truth is that many school districts are in trouble, including smaller ones like Santa Rosa in Sonoma County.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here to fill us in on what’s going on up there is Adriana Gutierrez, an education and child welfare reporter for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Press Democrat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> in Santa Rosa. Welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what’s going on with the school district up there? Give us a bit of the budget background.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. They’ve had budget issues for probably the last decade, especially in the last five years. Over the past year, things really came to a head. The district’s financial situation became so dire that it was on the verge of entering state receivership, which is when California essentially takes control of a district for up to a decade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They’ve managed to avoid that for now through massive cuts, including significant school closures—six schools in two years—and the layoff of about 270 staff members over that same period, with possibly more to come.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow. What are the main factors here? Is it mostly fewer students—since funding is tied to enrollment—or is it more about spending?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s both. Like many districts in California, Santa Rosa City Schools is experiencing declining enrollment. They’ve lost about 3,000 students over the past decade and now serve just under 12,000 students, down from about 15,000. Since enrollment drives revenue, that’s a major loss.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the same time, they’ve struggled to control expenditures, especially staffing costs. After the pandemic, districts received a surge of funding to support academics and mental health, which led to hiring more staff. But when that one-time funding ran out, they were left with costs they couldn’t sustain. So now expenditures far outpace declining revenues, creating a structural deficit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Do we know why enrollment has declined specifically in Santa Rosa?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are several factors. Statewide, demographics are shifting—families are having fewer children. Locally, COVID played a role, but even before that, there were devastating wildfires, including the Tubbs Fire, which displaced many families.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">More recently, in 2023, a student was fatally stabbed on a Santa Rosa City Schools campus. That sparked major concerns about safety and led some families to leave the district.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What about rising costs? Sonoma County is expensive. Is this partly a situation where districts have to pay more to retain teachers?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s definitely part of the conversation. Sonoma County is one of the most expensive places to live, and teachers say they should be paid more. Even Michael Fine, CEO of the Fiscal Crisis and Management Assistance Team (FCMAT), has said that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But the issue is sustainability. If a district agrees to salary increases it can’t afford long term, that’s when financial problems arise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What has district leadership said over the years about managing the budget?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s been a lot of turnover. Every few years, leadership attempts to address the budget. Before I started covering the district in 2023, they had already made a round of cuts, and then the following year, they laid off about 90 staff members in anticipation of worsening conditions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem has been sustaining those cuts. When the district receives temporary funding increases—like cost-of-living adjustments—they sometimes restore positions, only to face deficits again later. The current board president says they’re trying to break that cycle by making cuts and sticking to them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some of your reporting suggests there were also technical challenges—like projecting enrollment or forecasting state funding. Do you think this was more about those issues, or about reluctance to make difficult cuts?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> District leaders have acknowledged both. The interim superintendent, Lisa August, frequently says these cuts are painful. But with the real threat of state receivership—where leadership could be replaced—they’ve recognized the urgency of making and sustaining tough decisions.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In other districts, people often point to rising administrative costs. Has that been an issue here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, that’s been a point of contention. The teachers union has been vocal about administrative salaries. That said, Santa Rosa’s leadership compensation isn’t unusually high compared to other districts in the county—some smaller districts actually pay more because administrators take on multiple roles.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Still, the district has reduced central office staff. This year, about ten positions were cut as part of roughly 170 layoffs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Are Santa Rosa’s problems unique, or are they representative of a broader trend?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Adriana Gutierrez:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a mix. Some factors are specific—like wildfires and local decisions—but others reflect broader issues. One example is pandemic-era funding. Districts were encouraged to use one-time federal money to hire staff and expand services, which Santa Rosa did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But that funding wasn’t permanent, and once it disappeared, districts were left with costs they couldn’t sustain. So you see both external pressures and internal missteps.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We’re talking about the budget crisis facing Bay Area public schools, starting with Santa Rosa. Our guest is Adriana Gutierrez, education and child welfare reporter for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Press Democrat\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We also want to hear from you. Have you been affected by school closures? How do you think your local district is managing its budget? Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can also email forum@kqed.org or find us on social media.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, March 30 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>A Los Angeles jury found Meta and YouTube negligent in a landmark case about social media addiction. Lawyers suing the tech giants argued that features like infinite scroll and algorithmic recommendations increased the risk of anxiety and depression in young users. We’ll look at the history of the case, and hear how it could mark a new strategy for advocates trying to reform major social media companies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"269\" data-end=\"351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"269\" data-end=\"287\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> From KQED, this is \u003cem data-start=\"307\" data-end=\"314\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachael Myrow, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"353\" data-end=\"699\">Last week, Meta and YouTube were found negligent in a case centered around social media addiction. The argument at the heart of the plaintiffs’ case: the products themselves — the infinite scroll, the algorithms, the design choices that keep not just kids, but all of us, on the apps for too long until, as the kids like to say, we’re all cooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"701\" data-end=\"1004\">We all feel the addictive pull of these platforms. But after years of congressional hearings that went nowhere, and state regulation that’s nibbled around the edges of this elephant, the courts appear to be the stage where Silicon Valley may finally be forced to confront the question of accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1006\" data-end=\"1216\">Joining me to break it all down today are two reporters who have been covering this: Jasmine Mithani, technology reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"1132\" data-end=\"1142\">The 19th\u003c/em>, joining us via Zoom from Los Angeles. Thank you for being here, Jasmine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1218\" data-end=\"1260\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1218\" data-end=\"1238\">Jasmine Mithani:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1262\" data-end=\"1510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1262\" data-end=\"1280\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> And Jeff Horwitz in studio, technology reporter covering Meta for the Reuters enterprise team. And I should also mention, the lead reporter on \u003cem data-start=\"1424\" data-end=\"1449\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>’s “Facebook Files” series a few years back. Thank you, Jeff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1537\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1529\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1539\" data-end=\"1919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1539\" data-end=\"1557\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, Jeff, why don’t we kick this off with you? This wasn’t the first lawsuit of its kind claiming behavioral harm at scale by design, but the lawyers said this verdict creates a playbook for how to win these kinds of cases. Does it, though? I mean, I’m thinking of a particular carve-out, Section 230, that has long shielded these companies. What’s your take?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1921\" data-end=\"1997\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1921\" data-end=\"1938\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’re jumping straight into Section 230, are we? Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1999\" data-end=\"2258\">Yes. So there are two of these cases. One, brought by private plaintiffs in Los Angeles, that’s viewed as sort of a test case for thousands of private claimants alleging that the company did not reveal the harm it knew was likely to be caused by its products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2260\" data-end=\"2378\">And then another one that’s more focused on child predation, out of New Mexico, brought by the state attorney general.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2380\" data-end=\"2571\">Both of those, just coincidentally, after running for years, have within the last week had jury verdicts. And in both instances, Meta was found responsible. And the penalties are substantial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2573\" data-end=\"2875\">So, Section 230 — the sort of longstanding shield that dates back to the Prodigy bulletin board era — protects platforms from liability when they choose to exercise some oversight over their platforms. They can’t be held responsible for harmful content that users post. That was the initial definition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2877\" data-end=\"3086\">And it stayed pretty constant even as the world moved on from Prodigy bulletin boards and onto social media platforms — first connecting you to people you knew, and then to content from people you didn’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3088\" data-end=\"3121\">That had been viewed as ironclad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3123\" data-end=\"3321\">What the plaintiffs in both cases here — both the state of New Mexico and the private plaintiffs — went for was the idea that Meta had, one, knowingly designed its products in a way that was unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3323\" data-end=\"3430\">Think of it like, I don’t know, a baby crib that has bars too far apart and creates a strangulation hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3432\" data-end=\"3637\">And then also that Meta had lied about what its products were likely to do. So they’ve said things like, “We made this safe,” when in fact there were people internally saying, “We have made this not safe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3639\" data-end=\"3797\">So this approach — this combination of consumer protection and bad product design — is being viewed as a potential end run around the Section 230 protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3799\" data-end=\"3994\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3799\" data-end=\"3817\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Jasmine, set the stage for the months to come, especially this summer. Am I right in thinking there are about 350 families in the pipeline behind the plaintiff known as Kaylee?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3996\" data-end=\"4114\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3996\" data-end=\"4016\">Jasmine Mithani:\u003c/strong> Yes. There are thousands of cases. They’re both at the state level and also at the federal level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4116\" data-end=\"4316\">The case in Los Angeles, with plaintiff KGM, was the first of what they call bellwether cases, which is just testing out this legal argument and seeing what it could mean for these thousands of cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4318\" data-end=\"4487\">So there are two more bellwether cases coming this summer, and those will be consequential in determining what will happen for the thousands and thousands of plaintiffs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4489\" data-end=\"4719\">But I do want to note that just because this one case settled — and we’re talking specifically about the individual plaintiffs, like the one in Los Angeles — it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s an automatic win for anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4721\" data-end=\"4871\">There still has to be consideration of the specific circumstances, the specific liability, and the specific allegations of what kind of harm was done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4873\" data-end=\"4904\">So it’s not quite as clear-cut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4906\" data-end=\"4995\">But many tech accountability advocates are really heralding this as a change in the tide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5093\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5015\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> And, Jeff, of course, there are going to be appeals. Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5095\" data-end=\"5158\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5095\" data-end=\"5112\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Meta has promised to appeal both cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5160\" data-end=\"5230\">And I should mention the New Mexico case is kind of a two-phase thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5328\">Only the first one — the monetary verdict by the jury — has been settled. That was $375 million.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5330\" data-end=\"5497\">The next stage is injunctive relief, where the state would be in a position to get a judge to order Meta to make product changes, at least for the state of New Mexico.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5499\" data-end=\"5576\">But obviously, it’s hard to change a social media platform in just one state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5578\" data-end=\"5643\">So this is going to be probably years still in terms of fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5645\" data-end=\"5763\">People have compared this to past product liability litigation — whether it’s related to the opioid crisis or tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5765\" data-end=\"5876\">Yes, addiction is a theme in some of these cases, though I’m not necessarily drawing a direct connection there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5878\" data-end=\"5967\">But it should be a while until there’s real clarity as to exactly how this all plays out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5969\" data-end=\"6122\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5969\" data-end=\"5987\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Jasmine, I’ve heard predictions that a lot of cases are going to get consolidated across the country. Is that what you’re hearing too?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6124\" data-end=\"6241\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6124\" data-end=\"6144\">Jasmine Mithani:\u003c/strong> I think there’s the potential for larger-scale settlements, if that’s what you’re talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6243\" data-end=\"6335\">The cases at the federal level have already been consolidated into multidistrict litigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6419\">And then also at the lower level, they’ve been consolidated on that scale as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6421\" data-end=\"6477\">But, like I said earlier, all these cases are different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6479\" data-end=\"6594\">So the potential for what kind of harm has been caused, and who is really at fault, those are still open questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6596\" data-end=\"6637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6596\" data-end=\"6614\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Open questions indeed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6639\" data-end=\"6769\">Just a reminder to listeners: Meta has been ordered to pay $4.2 million — again, this is before the appeal. YouTube, $1.8 million.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6771\" data-end=\"6888\">Meanwhile, in New Mexico, a court ordered Meta to pay $375 million for misrepresenting child safety on its platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6890\" data-end=\"6981\">I should mention these numbers sound big until you remember what these companies are worth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6983\" data-end=\"7072\">Jeff, how likely is it that any of these cases will change the way the companies operate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7074\" data-end=\"7218\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7074\" data-end=\"7091\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> I mean, I hear you that for a company that did $160 billion in revenue last year, none of these are exactly breaking the bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7220\" data-end=\"7309\">And in fact, the afternoon these cases closed out, Meta’s stock was actually slightly up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7311\" data-end=\"7374\">So I think how far this matters to them financially is unclear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7376\" data-end=\"7514\">That said, look, New Mexico is 0.62 percent of the U.S. population. If you scale that out, we are talking a lot of money at that juncture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7516\" data-end=\"7628\">And I think Meta has, for a number of years, understood that they are the lead dog in terms of being challenged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7630\" data-end=\"7687\">Other companies have either settled or had less pressure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7689\" data-end=\"7832\">So I think it’s likely that they’re already making some changes, and they certainly have been for several years in anticipation of this moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7834\" data-end=\"7911\">They’ve been launching Instagram for teens and really promoting that heavily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7913\" data-end=\"8003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7913\" data-end=\"7931\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Oh, I should mention it’s $160 billion in revenue for Meta, by the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8005\" data-end=\"8167\">Friends, we’re talking about social media addiction and the role big tech plays in keeping users — especially young people — endlessly engaged on their platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8169\" data-end=\"8250\">We’re talking with Jasmine Mithani and Jeff Horwitz, two fabulous tech reporters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8252\" data-end=\"8293\">We want to hear from you. Keep listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8295\" data-end=\"8331\">You’re listening to \u003cem data-start=\"8315\" data-end=\"8322\">Forum\u003c/em> on KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"269\" data-end=\"351\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"269\" data-end=\"287\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> From KQED, this is \u003cem data-start=\"307\" data-end=\"314\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Rachael Myrow, in for Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"353\" data-end=\"699\">Last week, Meta and YouTube were found negligent in a case centered around social media addiction. The argument at the heart of the plaintiffs’ case: the products themselves — the infinite scroll, the algorithms, the design choices that keep not just kids, but all of us, on the apps for too long until, as the kids like to say, we’re all cooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"701\" data-end=\"1004\">We all feel the addictive pull of these platforms. But after years of congressional hearings that went nowhere, and state regulation that’s nibbled around the edges of this elephant, the courts appear to be the stage where Silicon Valley may finally be forced to confront the question of accountability.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1006\" data-end=\"1216\">Joining me to break it all down today are two reporters who have been covering this: Jasmine Mithani, technology reporter for \u003cem data-start=\"1132\" data-end=\"1142\">The 19th\u003c/em>, joining us via Zoom from Los Angeles. Thank you for being here, Jasmine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1218\" data-end=\"1260\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1218\" data-end=\"1238\">Jasmine Mithani:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1262\" data-end=\"1510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1262\" data-end=\"1280\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> And Jeff Horwitz in studio, technology reporter covering Meta for the Reuters enterprise team. And I should also mention, the lead reporter on \u003cem data-start=\"1424\" data-end=\"1449\">The Wall Street Journal\u003c/em>’s “Facebook Files” series a few years back. Thank you, Jeff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1537\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1529\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> Thanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1539\" data-end=\"1919\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1539\" data-end=\"1557\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, Jeff, why don’t we kick this off with you? This wasn’t the first lawsuit of its kind claiming behavioral harm at scale by design, but the lawyers said this verdict creates a playbook for how to win these kinds of cases. Does it, though? I mean, I’m thinking of a particular carve-out, Section 230, that has long shielded these companies. What’s your take?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1921\" data-end=\"1997\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1921\" data-end=\"1938\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> Oh, we’re jumping straight into Section 230, are we? Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1999\" data-end=\"2258\">Yes. So there are two of these cases. One, brought by private plaintiffs in Los Angeles, that’s viewed as sort of a test case for thousands of private claimants alleging that the company did not reveal the harm it knew was likely to be caused by its products.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2260\" data-end=\"2378\">And then another one that’s more focused on child predation, out of New Mexico, brought by the state attorney general.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2380\" data-end=\"2571\">Both of those, just coincidentally, after running for years, have within the last week had jury verdicts. And in both instances, Meta was found responsible. And the penalties are substantial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2573\" data-end=\"2875\">So, Section 230 — the sort of longstanding shield that dates back to the Prodigy bulletin board era — protects platforms from liability when they choose to exercise some oversight over their platforms. They can’t be held responsible for harmful content that users post. That was the initial definition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2877\" data-end=\"3086\">And it stayed pretty constant even as the world moved on from Prodigy bulletin boards and onto social media platforms — first connecting you to people you knew, and then to content from people you didn’t know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3088\" data-end=\"3121\">That had been viewed as ironclad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3123\" data-end=\"3321\">What the plaintiffs in both cases here — both the state of New Mexico and the private plaintiffs — went for was the idea that Meta had, one, knowingly designed its products in a way that was unsafe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3323\" data-end=\"3430\">Think of it like, I don’t know, a baby crib that has bars too far apart and creates a strangulation hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3432\" data-end=\"3637\">And then also that Meta had lied about what its products were likely to do. So they’ve said things like, “We made this safe,” when in fact there were people internally saying, “We have made this not safe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3639\" data-end=\"3797\">So this approach — this combination of consumer protection and bad product design — is being viewed as a potential end run around the Section 230 protections.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3799\" data-end=\"3994\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3799\" data-end=\"3817\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Jasmine, set the stage for the months to come, especially this summer. Am I right in thinking there are about 350 families in the pipeline behind the plaintiff known as Kaylee?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3996\" data-end=\"4114\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3996\" data-end=\"4016\">Jasmine Mithani:\u003c/strong> Yes. There are thousands of cases. They’re both at the state level and also at the federal level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4116\" data-end=\"4316\">The case in Los Angeles, with plaintiff KGM, was the first of what they call bellwether cases, which is just testing out this legal argument and seeing what it could mean for these thousands of cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4318\" data-end=\"4487\">So there are two more bellwether cases coming this summer, and those will be consequential in determining what will happen for the thousands and thousands of plaintiffs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4489\" data-end=\"4719\">But I do want to note that just because this one case settled — and we’re talking specifically about the individual plaintiffs, like the one in Los Angeles — it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s an automatic win for anybody else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4721\" data-end=\"4871\">There still has to be consideration of the specific circumstances, the specific liability, and the specific allegations of what kind of harm was done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4873\" data-end=\"4904\">So it’s not quite as clear-cut.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4906\" data-end=\"4995\">But many tech accountability advocates are really heralding this as a change in the tide.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5093\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4997\" data-end=\"5015\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> And, Jeff, of course, there are going to be appeals. Tell us more about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5095\" data-end=\"5158\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5095\" data-end=\"5112\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> Yeah. Meta has promised to appeal both cases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5160\" data-end=\"5230\">And I should mention the New Mexico case is kind of a two-phase thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5232\" data-end=\"5328\">Only the first one — the monetary verdict by the jury — has been settled. That was $375 million.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5330\" data-end=\"5497\">The next stage is injunctive relief, where the state would be in a position to get a judge to order Meta to make product changes, at least for the state of New Mexico.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5499\" data-end=\"5576\">But obviously, it’s hard to change a social media platform in just one state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5578\" data-end=\"5643\">So this is going to be probably years still in terms of fighting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5645\" data-end=\"5763\">People have compared this to past product liability litigation — whether it’s related to the opioid crisis or tobacco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5765\" data-end=\"5876\">Yes, addiction is a theme in some of these cases, though I’m not necessarily drawing a direct connection there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5878\" data-end=\"5967\">But it should be a while until there’s real clarity as to exactly how this all plays out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5969\" data-end=\"6122\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5969\" data-end=\"5987\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Jasmine, I’ve heard predictions that a lot of cases are going to get consolidated across the country. Is that what you’re hearing too?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6124\" data-end=\"6241\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6124\" data-end=\"6144\">Jasmine Mithani:\u003c/strong> I think there’s the potential for larger-scale settlements, if that’s what you’re talking about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6243\" data-end=\"6335\">The cases at the federal level have already been consolidated into multidistrict litigation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6337\" data-end=\"6419\">And then also at the lower level, they’ve been consolidated on that scale as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6421\" data-end=\"6477\">But, like I said earlier, all these cases are different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6479\" data-end=\"6594\">So the potential for what kind of harm has been caused, and who is really at fault, those are still open questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6596\" data-end=\"6637\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6596\" data-end=\"6614\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Open questions indeed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6639\" data-end=\"6769\">Just a reminder to listeners: Meta has been ordered to pay $4.2 million — again, this is before the appeal. YouTube, $1.8 million.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6771\" data-end=\"6888\">Meanwhile, in New Mexico, a court ordered Meta to pay $375 million for misrepresenting child safety on its platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6890\" data-end=\"6981\">I should mention these numbers sound big until you remember what these companies are worth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6983\" data-end=\"7072\">Jeff, how likely is it that any of these cases will change the way the companies operate?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7074\" data-end=\"7218\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7074\" data-end=\"7091\">Jeff Horwitz:\u003c/strong> I mean, I hear you that for a company that did $160 billion in revenue last year, none of these are exactly breaking the bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7220\" data-end=\"7309\">And in fact, the afternoon these cases closed out, Meta’s stock was actually slightly up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7311\" data-end=\"7374\">So I think how far this matters to them financially is unclear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7376\" data-end=\"7514\">That said, look, New Mexico is 0.62 percent of the U.S. population. If you scale that out, we are talking a lot of money at that juncture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7516\" data-end=\"7628\">And I think Meta has, for a number of years, understood that they are the lead dog in terms of being challenged.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7630\" data-end=\"7687\">Other companies have either settled or had less pressure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7689\" data-end=\"7832\">So I think it’s likely that they’re already making some changes, and they certainly have been for several years in anticipation of this moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7834\" data-end=\"7911\">They’ve been launching Instagram for teens and really promoting that heavily.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7913\" data-end=\"8003\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7913\" data-end=\"7931\">Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Oh, I should mention it’s $160 billion in revenue for Meta, by the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8005\" data-end=\"8167\">Friends, we’re talking about social media addiction and the role big tech plays in keeping users — especially young people — endlessly engaged on their platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8169\" data-end=\"8250\">We’re talking with Jasmine Mithani and Jeff Horwitz, two fabulous tech reporters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8252\" data-end=\"8293\">We want to hear from you. 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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Monday, March 30 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>President Trump threatened to “completely” destroy key Iranian energy sites on Monday, if it did not agree to a peace deal and allow ships through the Strait of Hormuz. Over the weekend, Trump also claimed that regime change in Iran had been complete. Meanwhile, several hundred U.S. special forces arrived in the Middle East over the weekend, raising the number of troops stationed in the region to around 50,000, 10,000 more than usual. We talk about the latest on the Iran War and the fast pivoting American strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"197\" data-end=\"258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"197\" data-end=\"217\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"229\" data-end=\"236\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"260\" data-end=\"399\">This morning, we’re talking about the war in Iran and getting the latest. This is what Donald Trump posted this morning. This is all quote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote data-start=\"401\" data-end=\"1187\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"403\" data-end=\"1187\">“The United States of America is in serious discussions with a new and more reasonable regime to end our military operations in Iran. Great progress has been made, but if for any reason a deal is not shortly reached, which it probably will be, and if the Hormuz Strait is not immediately, quote, open for business, we will conclude our lovely, quote, stay in Iran by blowing up and completely obliterating all of their electric generating plant, oil wells, and Kharg Island, and possibly all desalination plants, which we have purposefully not yet, quote, touched. This will be in retribution for our many soldiers and others that Iran has butchered and killed over the old regime’s forty-seven-year reign of terror. Thank you for attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1189\" data-end=\"1213\">What do we make of this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1215\" data-end=\"1374\">Here to discuss, we have Mona Yacoubian, director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1376\" data-end=\"1406\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1376\" data-end=\"1395\">Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1408\" data-end=\"1575\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1408\" data-end=\"1428\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We also have Lieutenant Colonel Jahara Matisek, who’s a command pilot and a research fellow at the Naval War College. Welcome, Lieutenant Colonel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1577\" data-end=\"1665\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1577\" data-end=\"1605\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Great to be on a show I used to listen to when I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1667\" data-end=\"1701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1667\" data-end=\"1687\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bay Area kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1703\" data-end=\"1753\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1703\" data-end=\"1731\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Daly City, San Bruno.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1755\" data-end=\"1785\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1755\" data-end=\"1775\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Oh, nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1787\" data-end=\"2041\">Mona, let’s start with just over the weekend. It feels like every time I read a different article, the president or Pete Hegseth has said something else to somebody about what’s happening in the war. How are you reading this kind of armada of statements?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2043\" data-end=\"2439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2043\" data-end=\"2062\">Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/strong> It’s a very confusing picture, to say the least. As you rightly note, even within the same Truth Social post by the president this morning, we have very serious threats being laid down, but also some idea that negotiations are proceeding and a deal should happen. And again, I think this confusion speaks to a broader confusion that has dogged this war from day one, which is—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2441\" data-end=\"2536\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2441\" data-end=\"2461\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What are we doing? Yeah. Which is, what are we actually doing here, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2538\" data-end=\"3062\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2538\" data-end=\"2557\">Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/strong> Exactly — a lack of clarity on the objectives. And what that then unravels is a whole series of concerns and issues: the duration of the conflict, the endgame, how do we judge success, how do we know when we’re done — all of those questions. And the fact that we’re now entering the second month of the conflict and we still have this level of confusion, while the situation on the ground continues to grow more and more serious by the day, with global implications, I think is deeply, deeply concerning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3064\" data-end=\"3090\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3064\" data-end=\"3084\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3092\" data-end=\"3615\">Jahara, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is that I and our team here, when we’re reading about various troop deployments — okay, 82nd Airborne, a couple thousand people in; okay, we’ve got these Marines going in; we’ve got 40,000 people normally stationed there — I don’t really have in my head what those troops mean in terms of the possibilities for war. And I also don’t know what the limitations of those kinds of forces are. Can you walk through who’s in that theater, if I’m even using that word correctly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3617\" data-end=\"3807\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3617\" data-end=\"3645\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you are. And obviously, we have to tell the viewers the views are my own, not those of the U.S. military or government as well — just the usual disclaimer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3809\" data-end=\"4084\">So there are currently about 50,000 forces in the region. Think of them as primarily combat enablers. Or, in the case of pilots, yes, they’re doing combat, but again, a lot of it has been standoff strikes, aerial refueling, and other intelligence and reconnaissance missions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4086\" data-end=\"4141\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4086\" data-end=\"4106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Logistics and stuff like that too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4143\" data-end=\"4452\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4143\" data-end=\"4171\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Exactly, yeah. So actual warfighters — the people who would actually take land and hold it — you’ve got the 82nd Airborne. That’s about 2,000 infantry. Remember, they’re light infantry, so they’re not coming in with a bunch of tanks and armor. That’s a light, rapid-assault force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4454\" data-end=\"4880\">And the same thing with the 3,500 Marines who are on a ship getting pretty close to entering the Persian Gulf right now. Again, those are rapid, light-assault forces designed for quick operations. They’re basically designed to fight for three days at most while you wait for the heavy infantry to come in with the tanks, armor, and standard infantry to actually hold territory, because they bring all the logistics and supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4882\" data-end=\"5225\">So when you think of it in those terms, you kind of have the three-day assault forces. And then, of course, you have probably at least 1,000 special operations forces. Those are the ones that really only want to go in for a few hours, do what they have to do, and then leave. They are not equipped to hold any ground for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5227\" data-end=\"5598\">So when you look at that kind of picture, any sort of threat to Tehran and the regime is really episodically short term. If we’re talking about really threatening Iran in a bigger strategic way, it kind of takes us back to the 2003 Iraq War. You’re going to need half a million troops in the region if you wanted to seriously take, hold, and actually threaten the regime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5600\" data-end=\"5795\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5600\" data-end=\"5620\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, this is fascinating, right? This is exactly the kind of stuff that I was interested in. Because when I hear thousands of troops, I think, hey, that sounds like a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5797\" data-end=\"6040\">And then I think, when the Israelis went into Gaza, right, they brought, what, 300,000 troops? Something like that? To hold a place that’s the size of Alameda County, not something two and a half times the size of Texas with 90 million people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6042\" data-end=\"6255\">So what I’m hearing you say is that the kind of forces we have there are more the kind of forces that would be running a single operation over less than a week. So what are the sorts of things they could do, then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6402\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6285\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> It may be very small, short, episodic types of assaults. I think the president has talked about taking Kharg Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6404\" data-end=\"6691\">Well, okay, cool. You can take the island and maybe hold it for three days while facing intense airstrikes from Shahed drones from Iran and Iranian ballistic missiles, because the Iranians are still averaging about 34 missile attacks a day and about 95 drone attacks a day in the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6693\" data-end=\"7014\">So if you wanted to put U.S. forces into Kharg Island or any other parts along the coast in Iran, cool — you can probably hold it for three days. But you’re going to face a lot of intense pressure, and you’re going to have to expend a lot of air defenses just trying to protect whatever little enclave you decide to grab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7016\" data-end=\"7292\">And then the question becomes: if you want to hold it, now you need tens of thousands of follow-on forces — the basic infantry and the whole logistical tail that comes with trying to hold and maintain ground, while also keeping your adversary at bay and defending your forces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7294\" data-end=\"7709\">Again, if you’ve been watching the last four weeks of the war, the Iranians are doing this sort of grind of attrition against the entire region. And things are slowly getting through at a higher rate each day because the U.S. and the coalition are running out of air defense capabilities to shoot these things down. And then you’re losing a lot of the sensors and radars that help you be more effective in doing so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7711\" data-end=\"7949\">So it’s turning into a very difficult situation, I think, for the entire coalition. And in the case of Iran, they’ve proven to be highly resilient. It’s almost as if they watched us fight in their neighborhood for the last 20 or 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7951\" data-end=\"8071\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7951\" data-end=\"7971\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the war in Iran, the latest developments, and what our troop movements suggest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8073\" data-end=\"8337\">We’re joined by Lieutenant Colonel Jahara Matisek, who is a command pilot and research fellow at the Naval War College. We also have Mona Yacoubian, who’s director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8339\" data-end=\"8442\">You may recognize her name — she’s been on the program recently to talk about what’s happening in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8444\" data-end=\"8709\">We would love to hear from you. As you’re hearing the president and the administration making different statements about what’s happening in Iran and in the war, what are your questions? What do you want to hear from our experts on the region and military strategy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8711\" data-end=\"8769\">You can give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8817\">Of course, you know the email: \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8802\" data-end=\"8816\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8819\" data-end=\"8898\">And you can find us on Bluesky, on Instagram, and on Discord. We’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8900\" data-end=\"8932\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"197\" data-end=\"258\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"197\" data-end=\"217\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"229\" data-end=\"236\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"260\" data-end=\"399\">This morning, we’re talking about the war in Iran and getting the latest. This is what Donald Trump posted this morning. This is all quote:\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote data-start=\"401\" data-end=\"1187\">\n\u003cp data-start=\"403\" data-end=\"1187\">“The United States of America is in serious discussions with a new and more reasonable regime to end our military operations in Iran. Great progress has been made, but if for any reason a deal is not shortly reached, which it probably will be, and if the Hormuz Strait is not immediately, quote, open for business, we will conclude our lovely, quote, stay in Iran by blowing up and completely obliterating all of their electric generating plant, oil wells, and Kharg Island, and possibly all desalination plants, which we have purposefully not yet, quote, touched. This will be in retribution for our many soldiers and others that Iran has butchered and killed over the old regime’s forty-seven-year reign of terror. Thank you for attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump.”\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1189\" data-end=\"1213\">What do we make of this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1215\" data-end=\"1374\">Here to discuss, we have Mona Yacoubian, director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1376\" data-end=\"1406\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1376\" data-end=\"1395\">Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1408\" data-end=\"1575\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1408\" data-end=\"1428\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We also have Lieutenant Colonel Jahara Matisek, who’s a command pilot and a research fellow at the Naval War College. Welcome, Lieutenant Colonel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1577\" data-end=\"1665\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1577\" data-end=\"1605\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Great to be on a show I used to listen to when I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1667\" data-end=\"1701\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1667\" data-end=\"1687\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Bay Area kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1703\" data-end=\"1753\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1703\" data-end=\"1731\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Daly City, San Bruno.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1755\" data-end=\"1785\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1755\" data-end=\"1775\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Oh, nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1787\" data-end=\"2041\">Mona, let’s start with just over the weekend. It feels like every time I read a different article, the president or Pete Hegseth has said something else to somebody about what’s happening in the war. How are you reading this kind of armada of statements?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2043\" data-end=\"2439\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2043\" data-end=\"2062\">Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/strong> It’s a very confusing picture, to say the least. As you rightly note, even within the same Truth Social post by the president this morning, we have very serious threats being laid down, but also some idea that negotiations are proceeding and a deal should happen. And again, I think this confusion speaks to a broader confusion that has dogged this war from day one, which is—\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2441\" data-end=\"2536\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2441\" data-end=\"2461\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> What are we doing? Yeah. Which is, what are we actually doing here, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2538\" data-end=\"3062\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2538\" data-end=\"2557\">Mona Yacoubian:\u003c/strong> Exactly — a lack of clarity on the objectives. And what that then unravels is a whole series of concerns and issues: the duration of the conflict, the endgame, how do we judge success, how do we know when we’re done — all of those questions. And the fact that we’re now entering the second month of the conflict and we still have this level of confusion, while the situation on the ground continues to grow more and more serious by the day, with global implications, I think is deeply, deeply concerning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3064\" data-end=\"3090\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3064\" data-end=\"3084\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3092\" data-end=\"3615\">Jahara, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on is that I and our team here, when we’re reading about various troop deployments — okay, 82nd Airborne, a couple thousand people in; okay, we’ve got these Marines going in; we’ve got 40,000 people normally stationed there — I don’t really have in my head what those troops mean in terms of the possibilities for war. And I also don’t know what the limitations of those kinds of forces are. Can you walk through who’s in that theater, if I’m even using that word correctly?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3617\" data-end=\"3807\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3617\" data-end=\"3645\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Yeah, you are. And obviously, we have to tell the viewers the views are my own, not those of the U.S. military or government as well — just the usual disclaimer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3809\" data-end=\"4084\">So there are currently about 50,000 forces in the region. Think of them as primarily combat enablers. Or, in the case of pilots, yes, they’re doing combat, but again, a lot of it has been standoff strikes, aerial refueling, and other intelligence and reconnaissance missions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4086\" data-end=\"4141\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4086\" data-end=\"4106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Logistics and stuff like that too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4143\" data-end=\"4452\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4143\" data-end=\"4171\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> Exactly, yeah. So actual warfighters — the people who would actually take land and hold it — you’ve got the 82nd Airborne. That’s about 2,000 infantry. Remember, they’re light infantry, so they’re not coming in with a bunch of tanks and armor. That’s a light, rapid-assault force.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4454\" data-end=\"4880\">And the same thing with the 3,500 Marines who are on a ship getting pretty close to entering the Persian Gulf right now. Again, those are rapid, light-assault forces designed for quick operations. They’re basically designed to fight for three days at most while you wait for the heavy infantry to come in with the tanks, armor, and standard infantry to actually hold territory, because they bring all the logistics and supply.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4882\" data-end=\"5225\">So when you think of it in those terms, you kind of have the three-day assault forces. And then, of course, you have probably at least 1,000 special operations forces. Those are the ones that really only want to go in for a few hours, do what they have to do, and then leave. They are not equipped to hold any ground for a long period of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5227\" data-end=\"5598\">So when you look at that kind of picture, any sort of threat to Tehran and the regime is really episodically short term. If we’re talking about really threatening Iran in a bigger strategic way, it kind of takes us back to the 2003 Iraq War. You’re going to need half a million troops in the region if you wanted to seriously take, hold, and actually threaten the regime.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5600\" data-end=\"5795\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5600\" data-end=\"5620\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I mean, this is fascinating, right? This is exactly the kind of stuff that I was interested in. Because when I hear thousands of troops, I think, hey, that sounds like a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5797\" data-end=\"6040\">And then I think, when the Israelis went into Gaza, right, they brought, what, 300,000 troops? Something like that? To hold a place that’s the size of Alameda County, not something two and a half times the size of Texas with 90 million people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6042\" data-end=\"6255\">So what I’m hearing you say is that the kind of forces we have there are more the kind of forces that would be running a single operation over less than a week. So what are the sorts of things they could do, then?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6402\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6285\">Lt. Col. Jahara Matisek:\u003c/strong> It may be very small, short, episodic types of assaults. I think the president has talked about taking Kharg Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6404\" data-end=\"6691\">Well, okay, cool. You can take the island and maybe hold it for three days while facing intense airstrikes from Shahed drones from Iran and Iranian ballistic missiles, because the Iranians are still averaging about 34 missile attacks a day and about 95 drone attacks a day in the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6693\" data-end=\"7014\">So if you wanted to put U.S. forces into Kharg Island or any other parts along the coast in Iran, cool — you can probably hold it for three days. But you’re going to face a lot of intense pressure, and you’re going to have to expend a lot of air defenses just trying to protect whatever little enclave you decide to grab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7016\" data-end=\"7292\">And then the question becomes: if you want to hold it, now you need tens of thousands of follow-on forces — the basic infantry and the whole logistical tail that comes with trying to hold and maintain ground, while also keeping your adversary at bay and defending your forces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7294\" data-end=\"7709\">Again, if you’ve been watching the last four weeks of the war, the Iranians are doing this sort of grind of attrition against the entire region. And things are slowly getting through at a higher rate each day because the U.S. and the coalition are running out of air defense capabilities to shoot these things down. And then you’re losing a lot of the sensors and radars that help you be more effective in doing so.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7711\" data-end=\"7949\">So it’s turning into a very difficult situation, I think, for the entire coalition. And in the case of Iran, they’ve proven to be highly resilient. It’s almost as if they watched us fight in their neighborhood for the last 20 or 30 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"7951\" data-end=\"8071\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"7951\" data-end=\"7971\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the war in Iran, the latest developments, and what our troop movements suggest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8073\" data-end=\"8337\">We’re joined by Lieutenant Colonel Jahara Matisek, who is a command pilot and research fellow at the Naval War College. We also have Mona Yacoubian, who’s director and senior adviser of the Middle East Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8339\" data-end=\"8442\">You may recognize her name — she’s been on the program recently to talk about what’s happening in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8444\" data-end=\"8709\">We would love to hear from you. As you’re hearing the president and the administration making different statements about what’s happening in Iran and in the war, what are your questions? What do you want to hear from our experts on the region and military strategy?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8711\" data-end=\"8769\">You can give us a call: 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8771\" data-end=\"8817\">Of course, you know the email: \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"8802\" data-end=\"8816\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8819\" data-end=\"8898\">And you can find us on Bluesky, on Instagram, and on Discord. We’re KQED Forum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"8900\" data-end=\"8932\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“When we give a scented flower, bring blooms to a grave, or dab perfume onto our skin, we are not enacting arbitrary, merely symbolic rituals. Rather, we invoke the relationships with flowering plants from which the ecology of the planet is made, and which created and sustain human life.” So writes acclaimed biologist David George Haskell, whose new book “How Flowers Made Our World” paints flowers as revolutionaries that have determined the evolution of all life on earth — and who need our help to weather climate change. He joins us and we hear from you: What role do flowers play in your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"60\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"36\" data-end=\"43\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"62\" data-end=\"577\">Flowers appear at nearly every significant human life transition and gathering place, says biologist David George Haskell—flowers on a grave, a shower of petals for newlyweds, floral garlands and altar pieces in places of worship. We may at times dismiss flowers as superficially pretty or box them into narrow symbolic roles, Haskell writes, but their presence at the center of acts of love, grief, community, worship, and cultivation reveals that, deep down, we understand the life-giving importance of flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"579\" data-end=\"888\">In a new book, Haskell deepens that intuitive understanding, showing that flowers are not just beautiful or ornamental, but powerful—setting Earth on an entirely new course when they appeared some 200 million years ago. His book is called \u003cem data-start=\"818\" data-end=\"885\">How Flowers Made Our World: The Story of Nature’s Revolutionaries\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"890\" data-end=\"1033\">And listeners, tell us: what flower marks a significant moment or place for you? David Haskell, so glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1014\" data-end=\"1021\">Forum\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1053\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Mina. It’s such a pleasure to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1124\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to start by talking about a “flower” that many of us don’t even think of as one—grasses. Their effect on humans, animals, and habitats really illustrates what you mean when you say flowers are revolutionary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1361\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes, I love that you’re leading with grasses because, of course, most of us think of grass as just a green carpet—we don’t pay much attention. But grasses are flowering plants. They’re a relatively recent arrival in the evolution of flowering plants, and when they appeared, they revolutionized the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1671\" data-end=\"2039\">They created steppes, prairies, and savannas—entirely new habitats. They did that partly by interacting with fire and grazing mammals in complex relationships that unfolded over millions of years. And then one clever little ape—our prehuman ancestors—came down out of the trees onto these grasslands and fed themselves from grasses and from animals that ate grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2041\" data-end=\"2330\">So without grasses, we humans would not have evolved. Fast forward to today, and about 66 percent of all food calories eaten by humans come from just three species of grasses: wheat, maize, and rice. Much of the rest—pasture grasses, sugarcane, millet, oats, and barley—are also grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2332\" data-end=\"2477\">If we named ourselves based on what we eat, we should be called “grass apes”—both for our diet and for the plants that catalyzed our evolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2627\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2492\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How big do you think the human population would be if we hadn’t discovered how edible grasses are—how well they work for our bodies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2862\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2647\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> There wouldn’t even be a human population without grasses. Our ancestors were small-brained apes living in trees, eating fruits and insects. There’s a long evolutionary journey from that to modern \u003cem data-start=\"2845\" data-end=\"2859\">Homo sapiens\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2864\" data-end=\"3215\">Without grasses, we might number in the thousands or tens of thousands—not the eight-plus billion we have today. Many predictions of mass starvation in the 19th and 20th centuries didn’t come true largely because of the enormous productivity of grasses. People at the time didn’t realize just how transformative grasses would be in feeding humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3380\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3230\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You also say that if we really look at how grasses survive—especially seeds—we can see what you call “mothering” at work. What do you mean by that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3555\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3400\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> One of the key innovations of flowering plants, which helped them take over the planet about 130 million years ago, is enhanced maternal care for seeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3557\" data-end=\"3890\">Part of that is the fruit that surrounds seeds. Fruits can be dry and explosive, or they can attract birds, or float in water. Inside the seed, there’s another gift from the mother plant: a tissue called the endosperm. It’s rich in starch, oils, and proteins—essentially a food reserve meant to nourish the embryo as it germinates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3892\" data-end=\"4150\">We—and many other animals—figured out how to eat that. If you open a bag of flour, you’re mostly looking at ground-up endosperm. Birds, insects, and other animals that eat seeds are, in a sense, being “mothered” by flowering plants through this innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4275\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4165\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You describe the endosperm as a kind of disturbing sibling relationship—but fascinating nonetheless, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4481\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4295\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes. When pollen fertilizes a plant, two sperm cells are involved. One fertilizes the egg to form the embryo—that’s familiar. But the other joins with two cells to form the endosperm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4483\" data-end=\"4697\">That endosperm is essentially a doomed sibling. Its role is to grow into a nutrient-rich tissue that will be consumed by the embryo. There’s something a bit unsettling about that—it’s a kind of sibling sacrifice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4699\" data-end=\"4842\">But it’s also part of the intricate choreography of plant life—cells and genes moving in precise ways to ensure the next generation succeeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"5068\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"4857\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David George Haskell, biologist and author of the new book \u003cem data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"4964\">How Flowers Made Our World\u003c/em>. You may also remember him from his previous books \u003cem data-start=\"5016\" data-end=\"5040\">Sounds Wild and Broken\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"5045\" data-end=\"5065\">The Songs of Trees\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5070\" data-end=\"5253\">Listeners, what questions do you have about flowers—their science and how they grow? What role do flowers play in your life? Do you have a favorite flower tied to a memory or place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5255\" data-end=\"5388\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5267\" data-end=\"5281\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum. Or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5390\" data-end=\"5629\">David, you’ve described how flowering plants have shaped evolution and human life—and that about 90 percent of plant species today are flowering plants. Yet they’re not at the center of the story of how our world came to be. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5833\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5649\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> It’s a very old bias. If you look at Paleolithic cave paintings, they’re mostly focused on animals. In Europe, fewer than one percent depict plants, and virtually none show flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5835\" data-end=\"6100\">Even today, we tend to focus on animals—whether in art, media, or natural history museums. Animals are edible, dangerous, or expressive in ways that grab our attention. Plants, by contrast, don’t have faces or behaviors that trigger our instincts in the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6102\" data-end=\"6255\">In modern society, we’ve also boxed flowers into a narrow role: pretty, decorative, and often gendered as feminine—and therefore seen as less powerful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6507\">All of this minimizes their importance. But over the last 100 million years, flowering plants have built the ecosystems—rainforests, prairies, and more—that support life on Earth. We have a long-standing bias against recognizing their central role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6509\" data-end=\"6605\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6509\" data-end=\"6522\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you’re helping us rethink that. We’ll talk more after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“When we give a scented flower, bring blooms to a grave, or dab perfume onto our skin, we are not enacting arbitrary, merely symbolic rituals. Rather, we invoke the relationships with flowering plants from which the ecology of the planet is made, and which created and sustain human life.” So writes acclaimed biologist David George Haskell, whose new book “How Flowers Made Our World” paints flowers as revolutionaries that have determined the evolution of all life on earth — and who need our help to weather climate change. He joins us and we hear from you: What role do flowers play in your life?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"60\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"36\" data-end=\"43\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"62\" data-end=\"577\">Flowers appear at nearly every significant human life transition and gathering place, says biologist David George Haskell—flowers on a grave, a shower of petals for newlyweds, floral garlands and altar pieces in places of worship. We may at times dismiss flowers as superficially pretty or box them into narrow symbolic roles, Haskell writes, but their presence at the center of acts of love, grief, community, worship, and cultivation reveals that, deep down, we understand the life-giving importance of flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"579\" data-end=\"888\">In a new book, Haskell deepens that intuitive understanding, showing that flowers are not just beautiful or ornamental, but powerful—setting Earth on an entirely new course when they appeared some 200 million years ago. His book is called \u003cem data-start=\"818\" data-end=\"885\">How Flowers Made Our World: The Story of Nature’s Revolutionaries\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"890\" data-end=\"1033\">And listeners, tell us: what flower marks a significant moment or place for you? David Haskell, so glad to have you back on \u003cem data-start=\"1014\" data-end=\"1021\">Forum\u003c/em>. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1109\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1035\" data-end=\"1053\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Thank you, Mina. It’s such a pleasure to be with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1341\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1111\" data-end=\"1124\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I want to start by talking about a “flower” that many of us don’t even think of as one—grasses. Their effect on humans, animals, and habitats really illustrates what you mean when you say flowers are revolutionary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1343\" data-end=\"1361\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes, I love that you’re leading with grasses because, of course, most of us think of grass as just a green carpet—we don’t pay much attention. But grasses are flowering plants. They’re a relatively recent arrival in the evolution of flowering plants, and when they appeared, they revolutionized the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1671\" data-end=\"2039\">They created steppes, prairies, and savannas—entirely new habitats. They did that partly by interacting with fire and grazing mammals in complex relationships that unfolded over millions of years. And then one clever little ape—our prehuman ancestors—came down out of the trees onto these grasslands and fed themselves from grasses and from animals that ate grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2041\" data-end=\"2330\">So without grasses, we humans would not have evolved. Fast forward to today, and about 66 percent of all food calories eaten by humans come from just three species of grasses: wheat, maize, and rice. Much of the rest—pasture grasses, sugarcane, millet, oats, and barley—are also grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2332\" data-end=\"2477\">If we named ourselves based on what we eat, we should be called “grass apes”—both for our diet and for the plants that catalyzed our evolution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2627\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2479\" data-end=\"2492\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> How big do you think the human population would be if we hadn’t discovered how edible grasses are—how well they work for our bodies?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2862\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2629\" data-end=\"2647\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> There wouldn’t even be a human population without grasses. Our ancestors were small-brained apes living in trees, eating fruits and insects. There’s a long evolutionary journey from that to modern \u003cem data-start=\"2845\" data-end=\"2859\">Homo sapiens\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2864\" data-end=\"3215\">Without grasses, we might number in the thousands or tens of thousands—not the eight-plus billion we have today. Many predictions of mass starvation in the 19th and 20th centuries didn’t come true largely because of the enormous productivity of grasses. People at the time didn’t realize just how transformative grasses would be in feeding humanity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3380\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3217\" data-end=\"3230\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You also say that if we really look at how grasses survive—especially seeds—we can see what you call “mothering” at work. What do you mean by that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3555\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3382\" data-end=\"3400\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> One of the key innovations of flowering plants, which helped them take over the planet about 130 million years ago, is enhanced maternal care for seeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3557\" data-end=\"3890\">Part of that is the fruit that surrounds seeds. Fruits can be dry and explosive, or they can attract birds, or float in water. Inside the seed, there’s another gift from the mother plant: a tissue called the endosperm. It’s rich in starch, oils, and proteins—essentially a food reserve meant to nourish the embryo as it germinates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3892\" data-end=\"4150\">We—and many other animals—figured out how to eat that. If you open a bag of flour, you’re mostly looking at ground-up endosperm. Birds, insects, and other animals that eat seeds are, in a sense, being “mothered” by flowering plants through this innovation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4275\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4152\" data-end=\"4165\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> You describe the endosperm as a kind of disturbing sibling relationship—but fascinating nonetheless, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4481\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4277\" data-end=\"4295\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> Yes. When pollen fertilizes a plant, two sperm cells are involved. One fertilizes the egg to form the embryo—that’s familiar. But the other joins with two cells to form the endosperm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4483\" data-end=\"4697\">That endosperm is essentially a doomed sibling. Its role is to grow into a nutrient-rich tissue that will be consumed by the embryo. There’s something a bit unsettling about that—it’s a kind of sibling sacrifice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4699\" data-end=\"4842\">But it’s also part of the intricate choreography of plant life—cells and genes moving in precise ways to ensure the next generation succeeds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"5068\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4844\" data-end=\"4857\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> We’re talking with David George Haskell, biologist and author of the new book \u003cem data-start=\"4936\" data-end=\"4964\">How Flowers Made Our World\u003c/em>. You may also remember him from his previous books \u003cem data-start=\"5016\" data-end=\"5040\">Sounds Wild and Broken\u003c/em> and \u003cem data-start=\"5045\" data-end=\"5065\">The Songs of Trees\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5070\" data-end=\"5253\">Listeners, what questions do you have about flowers—their science and how they grow? What role do flowers play in your life? Do you have a favorite flower tied to a memory or place?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5255\" data-end=\"5388\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"5267\" data-end=\"5281\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>. Find us on Discord, Bluesky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum. Or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5390\" data-end=\"5629\">David, you’ve described how flowering plants have shaped evolution and human life—and that about 90 percent of plant species today are flowering plants. Yet they’re not at the center of the story of how our world came to be. Why is that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5833\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5631\" data-end=\"5649\">David Haskell:\u003c/strong> It’s a very old bias. If you look at Paleolithic cave paintings, they’re mostly focused on animals. In Europe, fewer than one percent depict plants, and virtually none show flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5835\" data-end=\"6100\">Even today, we tend to focus on animals—whether in art, media, or natural history museums. Animals are edible, dangerous, or expressive in ways that grab our attention. Plants, by contrast, don’t have faces or behaviors that trigger our instincts in the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6102\" data-end=\"6255\">In modern society, we’ve also boxed flowers into a narrow role: pretty, decorative, and often gendered as feminine—and therefore seen as less powerful.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6257\" data-end=\"6507\">All of this minimizes their importance. But over the last 100 million years, flowering plants have built the ecosystems—rainforests, prairies, and more—that support life on Earth. We have a long-standing bias against recognizing their central role.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6509\" data-end=\"6605\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"6509\" data-end=\"6522\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> And you’re helping us rethink that. We’ll talk more after the break. I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cars have become dramatically more expensive in the United States in recent years, with the average price hitting a record of $50,000 in 2025. But now the market faces both higher sticker prices and a surge in gas prices stemming from the war in Iran. In the past, U.S. consumers have relied on relatively affordable fuel to justify buying large cars such as SUVs and trucks. In fact, most U.S.-based automakers don’t even make sedans and compact cars anymore. California, however, has been pushing drivers to buy more electric cars. We’ll talk about how the current rise in car prices and fuel costs along with government policies are affecting the U.S. auto market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Buying an automobile is confusing these days. On the one hand, some countries around the world have gone headlong into electric vehicles—China, Norway, Sweden, Vietnam, a bunch of others. They’re rapidly transforming their automotive systems. Then there’s the United States, which, under the Trump administration, is doubling down on internal combustion vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"429\" data-end=\"713\">That doesn’t mean cars are affordable. Get this: the average new car sales price has spiraled up over the last seven years—from $36,000 in 2018, which was already a lot, to about $50,000 now. And as this is all happening, the price of gas is skyrocketing because of the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"854\">Here to talk with us about what’s happening, we’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, an automotive media company. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"913\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"871\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"1112\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"935\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Scott Moura, who’s a professor in civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1163\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1130\">Scott Moura:\u003c/strong> Hey, Alexis. Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1313\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1185\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Jessica Caldwell, who’s head of insights at Edmunds, an automotive information and car-buying website. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1378\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1336\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1576\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1400\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with cost. I mean, $50,000—being anywhere around that for the price of a new car—it’s just not where my brain is anchored. What happened? How did we get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1593\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. I think you can look at a lot of the technology being added to vehicles, particularly in the time frame you referenced. Anyone who’s in an older car and then gets into a newer one from the last two or three years will notice how large and numerous the screens are. They’re massive, and they can do a ton of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1937\" data-end=\"2084\">You can watch videos—usually when you’re parked—take Zoom or Teams calls, install apps, listen to Spotify. There’s just a lot more functionality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I’ve got to say, though—is that $14,000 worth of change? You can get a 70-inch high-definition TV for $500. Your phone is doing most of the processing. I get that that’s the nominal reason, but does it feel worth it to you? If you went back to a car from eight years ago, would you feel like you were in the Stone Age?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2677\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2444\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> No. First of all, I feel you. I’m sort of appalled every time I get into some of these vehicles—even ones that are supposed to be on the lower end. There’s definitely sticker shock, even for someone who works in the new car space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2679\" data-end=\"2934\">I think Jessica could probably speak to this better, but part of what’s going on is the skew of the product mix. Automakers want higher margins, so they’re pushing features that come in at the top end—and that’s driving the average transaction price up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"3180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"2957\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to add to that—Americans like larger vehicles. Back in the 2008 recession, Detroit automakers were criticized for not having enough small, fuel-efficient cars. So they introduced more compact and subcompact models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3182\" data-end=\"3363\">But when the economy improved, nobody wanted them. If you look at Detroit lineups today, they barely have any traditional cars left—mostly trucks and SUVs, with a few sports cars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3365\" data-end=\"3674\">When times are good, Americans want bigger vehicles with more amenities. Over the 2010s, financing was cheap, loans got longer, and interest rates were low. So vehicles just kept getting bigger and more expensive. Automakers make more money on those, so they leaned into it. In a way, we got ourselves here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3696\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jessica, I have to say—when companies say, “People just want our more expensive, higher-margin products,” that raises my eyebrows a bit. There are lots of ways automakers can influence what people buy. Did they, in some sense, steer people away from cheaper cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4224\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"3985\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> I think we like the bells and whistles. Car buying is emotional. You walk in with a budget, but then you’re at the dealership and think, “For $10, $20, $30 more a month…”—because that’s how people think—you can get something much nicer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4226\" data-end=\"4544\">You start imagining your life in that car—the big screens, the features—and suddenly you’re signing up for a bigger loan. And when interest rates are low, you can stretch that loan to 72 or even 84 months. It doesn’t feel like much more per month, but it adds up. That mindset shows up in a lot of American spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4827\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4566\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Edward, let me ask about supply. During the Biden administration, there was a lot of talk about semiconductor shortages. Automakers canceled chip orders early in the pandemic, then couldn’t get them back when demand returned. That meant fewer cars available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"4970\">To what extent did that supply crunch drive up prices? Was it just that there were fewer cars, so companies realized people would pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"5150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"4987\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. The pandemic supply chain issues were a wild time. The chip shortage, in particular, forced automakers to rethink which features mattered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5152\" data-end=\"5413\">It wasn’t things like window switches—everyone uses those. It was features like self-parking systems. About a decade ago, manufacturers thought everyone would want them. But many people don’t use them—they’re slow, and Americans like things to happen quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5415\" data-end=\"5601\">So companies cut some of those features to reallocate chips elsewhere. Then, when demand came back, there was also a sense of “we’ve been through a tough time, let’s reward ourselves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5603\" data-end=\"5834\">As Jessica said, automakers are reactive. They respond to what consumers—and dealers—are willing to buy. Dealers, in a sense, are the manufacturers’ first customers. They relay what shoppers want, and that shapes what gets built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"6057\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"5856\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how rising car prices and fuel costs are affecting the U.S. auto market. We’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, and Jessica Caldwell, head of insights at Edmunds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6059\" data-end=\"6314\">When we come back, we’ll hear more from Scott Moura, professor of civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. We’ll also talk about gas prices and how they’re shaping the car market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6316\" data-end=\"6554\">We want to hear from you. Have you bought a car recently, or are you in the market? What’s your experience—sticker shock included? How about rising gas prices—are they affecting you? Have you switched cars for other reasons in the past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6556\" data-end=\"6684\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6623\" data-end=\"6637\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6686\" data-end=\"6718\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Thursday, March 26 at 9 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cars have become dramatically more expensive in the United States in recent years, with the average price hitting a record of $50,000 in 2025. But now the market faces both higher sticker prices and a surge in gas prices stemming from the war in Iran. In the past, U.S. consumers have relied on relatively affordable fuel to justify buying large cars such as SUVs and trucks. In fact, most U.S.-based automakers don’t even make sedans and compact cars anymore. California, however, has been pushing drivers to buy more electric cars. We’ll talk about how the current rise in car prices and fuel costs along with government policies are affecting the U.S. auto market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"20\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"32\" data-end=\"39\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Alexis Madrigal. Buying an automobile is confusing these days. On the one hand, some countries around the world have gone headlong into electric vehicles—China, Norway, Sweden, Vietnam, a bunch of others. They’re rapidly transforming their automotive systems. Then there’s the United States, which, under the Trump administration, is doubling down on internal combustion vehicles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"429\" data-end=\"713\">That doesn’t mean cars are affordable. Get this: the average new car sales price has spiraled up over the last seven years—from $36,000 in 2018, which was already a lot, to about $50,000 now. And as this is all happening, the price of gas is skyrocketing because of the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"715\" data-end=\"854\">Here to talk with us about what’s happening, we’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, an automotive media company. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"913\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"856\" data-end=\"871\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> Thanks for having me. Great to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"1112\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"915\" data-end=\"935\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’ve got Scott Moura, who’s a professor in civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. Welcome, Scott.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1163\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1114\" data-end=\"1130\">Scott Moura:\u003c/strong> Hey, Alexis. Happy to be here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1313\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1165\" data-end=\"1185\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> And we’ve got Jessica Caldwell, who’s head of insights at Edmunds, an automotive information and car-buying website. Welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1378\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1315\" data-end=\"1336\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Hi, good morning. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1576\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1380\" data-end=\"1400\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> So let’s start with cost. I mean, $50,000—being anywhere around that for the price of a new car—it’s just not where my brain is anchored. What happened? How did we get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1935\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1578\" data-end=\"1593\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> That’s a great question. I think you can look at a lot of the technology being added to vehicles, particularly in the time frame you referenced. Anyone who’s in an older car and then gets into a newer one from the last two or three years will notice how large and numerous the screens are. They’re massive, and they can do a ton of things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1937\" data-end=\"2084\">You can watch videos—usually when you’re parked—take Zoom or Teams calls, install apps, listen to Spotify. There’s just a lot more functionality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2427\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2086\" data-end=\"2106\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> I’ve got to say, though—is that $14,000 worth of change? You can get a 70-inch high-definition TV for $500. Your phone is doing most of the processing. I get that that’s the nominal reason, but does it feel worth it to you? If you went back to a car from eight years ago, would you feel like you were in the Stone Age?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2677\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2429\" data-end=\"2444\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> No. First of all, I feel you. I’m sort of appalled every time I get into some of these vehicles—even ones that are supposed to be on the lower end. There’s definitely sticker shock, even for someone who works in the new car space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2679\" data-end=\"2934\">I think Jessica could probably speak to this better, but part of what’s going on is the skew of the product mix. Automakers want higher margins, so they’re pushing features that come in at the top end—and that’s driving the average transaction price up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"3180\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2936\" data-end=\"2957\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> Yeah, to add to that—Americans like larger vehicles. Back in the 2008 recession, Detroit automakers were criticized for not having enough small, fuel-efficient cars. So they introduced more compact and subcompact models.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3182\" data-end=\"3363\">But when the economy improved, nobody wanted them. If you look at Detroit lineups today, they barely have any traditional cars left—mostly trucks and SUVs, with a few sports cars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3365\" data-end=\"3674\">When times are good, Americans want bigger vehicles with more amenities. Over the 2010s, financing was cheap, loans got longer, and interest rates were low. So vehicles just kept getting bigger and more expensive. Automakers make more money on those, so they leaned into it. In a way, we got ourselves here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3962\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3676\" data-end=\"3696\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Jessica, I have to say—when companies say, “People just want our more expensive, higher-margin products,” that raises my eyebrows a bit. There are lots of ways automakers can influence what people buy. Did they, in some sense, steer people away from cheaper cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"4224\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"3964\" data-end=\"3985\">Jessica Caldwell:\u003c/strong> I think we like the bells and whistles. Car buying is emotional. You walk in with a budget, but then you’re at the dealership and think, “For $10, $20, $30 more a month…”—because that’s how people think—you can get something much nicer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4226\" data-end=\"4544\">You start imagining your life in that car—the big screens, the features—and suddenly you’re signing up for a bigger loan. And when interest rates are low, you can stretch that loan to 72 or even 84 months. It doesn’t feel like much more per month, but it adds up. That mindset shows up in a lot of American spending.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4827\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4546\" data-end=\"4566\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> Edward, let me ask about supply. During the Biden administration, there was a lot of talk about semiconductor shortages. Automakers canceled chip orders early in the pandemic, then couldn’t get them back when demand returned. That meant fewer cars available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4829\" data-end=\"4970\">To what extent did that supply crunch drive up prices? Was it just that there were fewer cars, so companies realized people would pay more?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"5150\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4972\" data-end=\"4987\">Edward Loh:\u003c/strong> It’s a good question. The pandemic supply chain issues were a wild time. The chip shortage, in particular, forced automakers to rethink which features mattered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5152\" data-end=\"5413\">It wasn’t things like window switches—everyone uses those. It was features like self-parking systems. About a decade ago, manufacturers thought everyone would want them. But many people don’t use them—they’re slow, and Americans like things to happen quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5415\" data-end=\"5601\">So companies cut some of those features to reallocate chips elsewhere. Then, when demand came back, there was also a sense of “we’ve been through a tough time, let’s reward ourselves.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5603\" data-end=\"5834\">As Jessica said, automakers are reactive. They respond to what consumers—and dealers—are willing to buy. Dealers, in a sense, are the manufacturers’ first customers. They relay what shoppers want, and that shapes what gets built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"6057\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5836\" data-end=\"5856\">Alexis Madrigal:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about how rising car prices and fuel costs are affecting the U.S. auto market. We’ve got Edward Loh, head of editorial at MotorTrend, and Jessica Caldwell, head of insights at Edmunds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6059\" data-end=\"6314\">When we come back, we’ll hear more from Scott Moura, professor of civil and environmental engineering and acting director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Berkeley. We’ll also talk about gas prices and how they’re shaping the car market.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6316\" data-end=\"6554\">We want to hear from you. Have you bought a car recently, or are you in the market? What’s your experience—sticker shock included? How about rising gas prices—are they affecting you? Have you switched cars for other reasons in the past?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6556\" data-end=\"6684\">Give us a call at 866-733-6786. That’s 866-733-6786. You can email \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"6623\" data-end=\"6637\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a> or find us on social media—we’re @KQEDForum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"6686\" data-end=\"6718\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">I’m Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 25 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With the war in Iran creating major economic uncertainty, some economists are forecasting that a recession could arrive this year. The economy had already been showing signs of weakness, including layoffs in Big Tech and enduring inflation concerns, and now surging oil prices are rocking U.S. markets. How bad might an economic downturn be in 2026? And are we prepared for a recession?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"366\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Economists in recent days have raised their risk assessments of a recession in the next 12 months. Moody’s Analytics puts it at nearly 50%, driven by the nation’s weak job numbers, and notes that prolonged high oil prices would significantly increase that risk. Goldman Sachs has raised its odds to 30%, up from 25%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"368\" data-end=\"693\">An oil shock has preceded nearly every economic contraction in the last century, aside from the COVID pandemic, and consumers are pessimistic. NerdWallet’s March survey found 65% of respondents expect a recession in the next year. Today, we look at what’s driving recession risk, including uncertainty over the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"695\" data-end=\"906\">And listeners, do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope? How are you preparing? You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, posting on our social channels, or emailing us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"889\" data-end=\"903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"908\" data-end=\"1018\">Starting us off is Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"970\" data-end=\"990\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Tal, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1008\" data-end=\"1015\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1079\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1044\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1148\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1094\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> First, remind us how economists define a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1174\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. Economists generally define a recession as a period when gross domestic product—GDP, the broadest measure of economic growth—contracts. The rule of thumb is two consecutive quarters of contraction. Since a quarter is three months, that means about six months of declining economic activity, with some caveats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1705\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1525\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Moody’s model predicts nearly a 50% chance of recession within 12 months, with odds increasing due to the war in Iran. What went into that forecast, and what do you think of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"2006\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"1731\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> On the one hand—I know Mark Zandi, the lead economist there, and I’ll tease him later about a nearly 50-50 forecast. Economists get teased all the time for being “on the one hand, on the other hand.” But I’ll give them some leeway here, because the risks do feel balanced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2008\" data-end=\"2450\">There’s a decent chance that, despite the chaos from this ongoing war, things work out okay—not that consumer sentiment improves or that there isn’t lasting damage, but that it’s not enough to tip us into recession. And yet, on the other hand, there’s an equal chance that this is the beginning of the end of the current expansion that followed the pandemic recovery—halted by market chaos and oil price surges tied to this president’s war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2465\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Zandi said that $125 to $130 a barrel could be a tipping point if prices stay there for months. How do oil prices have a cascading effect? Because I imagine oil prices alone wouldn’t cause a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2948\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2695\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right, not alone. But historically—whether we look at 1973, the late ’70s oil shocks tied to Iran, the Gulf War in the early ’90s, or the 2008 spike to $140 a barrel—oil price surges have often been the domino that exposes underlying vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"3217\">Oil remains a fundamental input in the global economy, even as renewables grow. Right now, we’re in a liminal period where inflation is expected to rise—most bank economists forecast at least 4%, and some market-based expectations suggest it could hit 5% by summer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3219\" data-end=\"3562\">Oil drives inflation not just at the pump, but across the economy. Airfares are one example—jet fuel costs are rising, and airline CEOs, like those at United, have flagged that as a concern. But oil also affects transportation of goods, fertilizers, plastics—everything from packaging to groceries. Those costs get passed along to consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3564\" data-end=\"3866\">Economists track both headline inflation, which includes everything, and core inflation, which strips out food and energy because they’re volatile. That’s usually helpful, though consumers understandably find it frustrating. But when an oil shock is big enough, it starts feeding into core inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4210\">When that happens, two things follow: it becomes much harder to control inflation, and it drags down growth. That’s because growth is measured in “real” terms—adjusted for inflation. If inflation rises sharply and stays high, it mechanically reduces real growth. So we don’t know exactly where we’re headed, but we’re in a precarious place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4449\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4225\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask listeners: Do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope we can avoid it? Are you changing your spending habits—putting off big purchases? How is the roller-coaster stock market affecting you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4451\" data-end=\"4584\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"4463\" data-end=\"4477\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4586\" data-end=\"4845\">President Trump, as you noted, is very sensitive to oil prices and even directing the war with markets top of mind. Talk about what we’ve seen—including today, when he touted sending Iran a 15-point peace plan and markets reacted, even as Iran dismissed it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"5287\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"4871\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> We’re in this odd period where both sides are offering so-called maximalist deals—terms that neither side is likely to accept, especially given domestic political pressures. The U.S. is a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless, so President Trump has to consider how outcomes play at home. Losing the war wouldn’t play well. Iran, while not a democracy, also has internal political dynamics it must manage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5289\" data-end=\"5505\">What’s remarkable is how this president is using his war powers with markets in mind. Presidents have always considered markets, but Trump has taken “jawboning”—using rhetoric to influence markets—to another level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5507\" data-end=\"5797\">For example, this past Sunday, he announced a temporary scaling back of the most intense attacks for about five days—conveniently taking us to market close on Friday. At that point, markets expect either de-escalation if a deal materializes, or renewed escalation—but after trading hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5950\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5812\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m going to have you hold that thought, Tal, as we head into a break. We’ll talk more about this right after. Stay with us—I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003ch2>Airdate: Wednesday, March 25 at 10 AM\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>With the war in Iran creating major economic uncertainty, some economists are forecasting that a recession could arrive this year. The economy had already been showing signs of weakness, including layoffs in Big Tech and enduring inflation concerns, and now surging oil prices are rocking U.S. markets. How bad might an economic downturn be in 2026? And are we prepared for a recession?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>This partial transcript was computer-generated. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"366\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"0\" data-end=\"13\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"25\" data-end=\"32\">Forum\u003c/em>. I’m Mina Kim. Economists in recent days have raised their risk assessments of a recession in the next 12 months. Moody’s Analytics puts it at nearly 50%, driven by the nation’s weak job numbers, and notes that prolonged high oil prices would significantly increase that risk. Goldman Sachs has raised its odds to 30%, up from 25%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"368\" data-end=\"693\">An oil shock has preceded nearly every economic contraction in the last century, aside from the COVID pandemic, and consumers are pessimistic. NerdWallet’s March survey found 65% of respondents expect a recession in the next year. Today, we look at what’s driving recession risk, including uncertainty over the war in Iran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"695\" data-end=\"906\">And listeners, do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope? How are you preparing? You can tell us by calling 866-733-6786, posting on our social channels, or emailing us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"889\" data-end=\"903\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"908\" data-end=\"1018\">Starting us off is Talmon Joseph Smith, economics reporter at \u003cem data-start=\"970\" data-end=\"990\">The New York Times\u003c/em>. Tal, welcome to \u003cem data-start=\"1008\" data-end=\"1015\">Forum\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1079\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1020\" data-end=\"1044\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much for having me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1148\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1081\" data-end=\"1094\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> First, remind us how economists define a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1510\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1150\" data-end=\"1174\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> That’s a good question. Economists generally define a recession as a period when gross domestic product—GDP, the broadest measure of economic growth—contracts. The rule of thumb is two consecutive quarters of contraction. Since a quarter is three months, that means about six months of declining economic activity, with some caveats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1705\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1512\" data-end=\"1525\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Moody’s model predicts nearly a 50% chance of recession within 12 months, with odds increasing due to the war in Iran. What went into that forecast, and what do you think of it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"2006\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"1707\" data-end=\"1731\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> On the one hand—I know Mark Zandi, the lead economist there, and I’ll tease him later about a nearly 50-50 forecast. Economists get teased all the time for being “on the one hand, on the other hand.” But I’ll give them some leeway here, because the risks do feel balanced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2008\" data-end=\"2450\">There’s a decent chance that, despite the chaos from this ongoing war, things work out okay—not that consumer sentiment improves or that there isn’t lasting damage, but that it’s not enough to tip us into recession. And yet, on the other hand, there’s an equal chance that this is the beginning of the end of the current expansion that followed the pandemic recovery—halted by market chaos and oil price surges tied to this president’s war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2669\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2452\" data-end=\"2465\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Zandi said that $125 to $130 a barrel could be a tipping point if prices stay there for months. How do oil prices have a cascading effect? Because I imagine oil prices alone wouldn’t cause a recession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2948\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"2671\" data-end=\"2695\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> Right, not alone. But historically—whether we look at 1973, the late ’70s oil shocks tied to Iran, the Gulf War in the early ’90s, or the 2008 spike to $140 a barrel—oil price surges have often been the domino that exposes underlying vulnerabilities.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"2950\" data-end=\"3217\">Oil remains a fundamental input in the global economy, even as renewables grow. Right now, we’re in a liminal period where inflation is expected to rise—most bank economists forecast at least 4%, and some market-based expectations suggest it could hit 5% by summer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3219\" data-end=\"3562\">Oil drives inflation not just at the pump, but across the economy. Airfares are one example—jet fuel costs are rising, and airline CEOs, like those at United, have flagged that as a concern. But oil also affects transportation of goods, fertilizers, plastics—everything from packaging to groceries. Those costs get passed along to consumers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3564\" data-end=\"3866\">Economists track both headline inflation, which includes everything, and core inflation, which strips out food and energy because they’re volatile. That’s usually helpful, though consumers understandably find it frustrating. But when an oil shock is big enough, it starts feeding into core inflation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"3868\" data-end=\"4210\">When that happens, two things follow: it becomes much harder to control inflation, and it drags down growth. That’s because growth is measured in “real” terms—adjusted for inflation. If inflation rises sharply and stays high, it mechanically reduces real growth. So we don’t know exactly where we’re headed, but we’re in a precarious place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4449\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4212\" data-end=\"4225\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> Let me ask listeners: Do you worry a recession is coming, or are you holding out hope we can avoid it? Are you changing your spending habits—putting off big purchases? How is the roller-coaster stock market affecting you?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4451\" data-end=\"4584\">Email us at \u003ca class=\"decorated-link cursor-pointer\" rel=\"noopener\" data-start=\"4463\" data-end=\"4477\">forum@kqed.org\u003c/a>, find us on Discord, BlueSky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at @KQEDForum, or call us at 866-733-6786.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4586\" data-end=\"4845\">President Trump, as you noted, is very sensitive to oil prices and even directing the war with markets top of mind. Talk about what we’ve seen—including today, when he touted sending Iran a 15-point peace plan and markets reacted, even as Iran dismissed it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"5287\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"4847\" data-end=\"4871\">Talmon Joseph Smith:\u003c/strong> We’re in this odd period where both sides are offering so-called maximalist deals—terms that neither side is likely to accept, especially given domestic political pressures. The U.S. is a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless, so President Trump has to consider how outcomes play at home. Losing the war wouldn’t play well. Iran, while not a democracy, also has internal political dynamics it must manage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5289\" data-end=\"5505\">What’s remarkable is how this president is using his war powers with markets in mind. Presidents have always considered markets, but Trump has taken “jawboning”—using rhetoric to influence markets—to another level.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5507\" data-end=\"5797\">For example, this past Sunday, he announced a temporary scaling back of the most intense attacks for about five days—conveniently taking us to market close on Friday. At that point, markets expect either de-escalation if a deal materializes, or renewed escalation—but after trading hours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5950\" data-is-last-node=\"\" data-is-only-node=\"\">\u003cstrong data-start=\"5799\" data-end=\"5812\">Mina Kim:\u003c/strong> I’m going to have you hold that thought, Tal, as we head into a break. We’ll talk more about this right after. Stay with us—I’m Mina Kim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/californiareportmagazine",
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"order": 10
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM3NjkwNjk1OTAz",
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},
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
"title": "Close All Tabs",
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"info": "Close All Tabs breaks down how digital culture shapes our world through thoughtful insights and irreverent humor.",
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"order": 1
},
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"code-switch-life-kit": {
"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubnByLm9yZy9yc3MvcG9kY2FzdC5waHA_aWQ9NTEwMzEy",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"id": "freakonomics-radio",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
"link": "/radio/program/freakonomics-radio",
"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
"rss": "https://feeds.feedburner.com/freakonomicsradio"
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
"title": "Fresh Air",
"info": "Hosted by Terry Gross, \u003cem>Fresh Air from WHYY\u003c/em> is the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues. One of public radio's most popular programs, Fresh Air features intimate conversations with today's biggest luminaries.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/381444908/podcast.xml"
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510051/podcast.xml"
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},
"hidden-brain": {
"id": "hidden-brain",
"title": "Hidden Brain",
"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/05/howIBuiltThis.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510313/how-i-built-this",
"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "npr"
},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510313/podcast.xml"
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},
"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
"meta": {
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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"amazon": "https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/6c3dd23c-93fb-4aab-97ba-1725fa6315f1/hyphenaci%C3%B3n",
"rss": "https://feeds.megaphone.fm/KQINC2275451163"
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/id1492194549",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/54C1dmuyFyKMFttY6X2j6r?si=K8SgRCoISNK6ZbjpXrX5-w",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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"rss": "https://feeds.publicradio.org/public_feeds/marketplace-pm/rss/rss"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "http://mastersofscale.app.link/",
"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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"stitcher": "https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/kqed/stories-teachers-share",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510360/podcast.xml"
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
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