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"slug": "fresh-air-weekend-novelists-liz-moore-and-julian-barnes",
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"title": "Fresh Air Weekend: Novelists Liz Moore and Julian Barnes",
"excerpt": "Moore, the author of \u003cem>The God of the Woods\u003c/em>, describes the rare \"flow state\" of writing. Maureen Corrigan reviews \u003cem>Vigil\u003c/em>, by George Saunders. Barnes says \u003cem>Departure(s)\u003c/em> will be his last book.",
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"content": "\u003cp>Fresh Air Weekend \u003cem>highlights some of the best interviews and reviews from past weeks, as well as new program elements specially paced for weekends. Our weekend show emphasizes interviews with writers, filmmakers, actors and musicians, and it often includes excerpts from live in-studio concerts. This week:\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>The God of the Woods\u003c/em> novelist Liz Moore describes the rare \"flow state\" of writing: \u003c/strong>Moore says writing is mostly labor, but \"2% of the time, usually at the very beginning of a book and the very end of a book, it feels like flying.\" She's the author of \u003cem>Long Bright River.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Saunders' \u003cem>Vigil\u003c/em> is a brief and bumpy return to the Bardo: \u003c/strong>The Bardo is a Tibetan Buddhist idea of a suspended state between life and death. Saunders explored the concept in his 2017 novel, Lincoln in the Bardo, and circles back to it again in his new novel Vigil.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julian Barnes says he's enjoying himself, but that \u003cem>Departure(s)\u003c/em> is his last book: \u003c/strong>Part memoir and part fiction, Barnes' hybrid novel publishes the day after his 80th birthday. He's been living with a rare form of blood cancer for six years.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>You can listen to the original interviews here:\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Fresh Air Weekend \u003cem>highlights some of the best interviews and reviews from past weeks, as well as new program elements specially paced for weekends. Our weekend show emphasizes interviews with writers, filmmakers, actors and musicians, and it often includes excerpts from live in-studio concerts. This week:\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>The God of the Woods\u003c/em> novelist Liz Moore describes the rare \"flow state\" of writing: \u003c/strong>Moore says writing is mostly labor, but \"2% of the time, usually at the very beginning of a book and the very end of a book, it feels like flying.\" She's the author of \u003cem>Long Bright River.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Saunders' \u003cem>Vigil\u003c/em> is a brief and bumpy return to the Bardo: \u003c/strong>The Bardo is a Tibetan Buddhist idea of a suspended state between life and death. Saunders explored the concept in his 2017 novel, Lincoln in the Bardo, and circles back to it again in his new novel Vigil.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Julian Barnes says he's enjoying himself, but that \u003cem>Departure(s)\u003c/em> is his last book: \u003c/strong>Part memoir and part fiction, Barnes' hybrid novel publishes the day after his 80th birthday. He's been living with a rare form of blood cancer for six years.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>You can listen to the original interviews here:\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "islands-is-a-spare-and-satisfying-slow-burn-thriller",
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"title": "'Islands' is a spare and satisfying slow-burn thriller",
"excerpt": "A washed-up tennis pro gives lessons at a fancy hotel in the Canary Islands. But when he meets an elegant woman with an unlikable husband, things take a noirish turn.",
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"content": "\u003cp>After the apocalyptic death and destruction of World War II, entire nations struggled to start anew amidst the physical and psychological rubble. There was a steady outpouring of stories that took place in settings that were barren, stripped down, inhospitable. \u003c/p>\u003cp>The most famous of these was probably \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/09/17/nx-s1-5364661/keanu-reeves-alex-winter-waiting-for-godot-broadway\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>Waiting for Godot\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, whose stage decoration is described thus: \"A country road. A tree. Evening.\" Such a landscape is itself a statement about the stark reality of existence, one shared by countless postwar movies and books whose characters inhabit deserts, empty beaches, mountain fortresses, bombed-out cities and impoverished villages.\u003c/p>\u003cp>You get a modern, upmarket version of this kind of arid landscape in \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em>, a teasingly spare, slow-burn drama by German filmmaker Jan-Ole Gerster, here working in English. Set on Fuerteventura — one of Spain's Canary Islands, off the coast of North Africa — it lures you in like a conventional thriller then turns into something less predictable.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Looking a bit like \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/08/16/751928219/pete-fonda-hollywoods-easy-rider-dies-at-79\" target=\"_blank\">Peter Fonda\u003c/a> in his scruffy days, Sam Riley plays the quietly sympathetic Tom, a broken-down tennis pro who has ended up on Fuerteventura, a small island that's basically a collection of beaches, volcanic slag and craggy cliffs. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Tom gives tennis lessons to the guests of a luxury hotel that, in these surroundings, looks like the QE2 has somehow docked on the moon. Although his life might appear enviable — days in the sun; nights of dancing, drinking and women eager to party — he wakes up with the daily hangover of a man trying to convince himself that purgatory is paradise.\u003c/p>\u003cp>This changes when he starts giving tennis lessons to Anton, the young son of a rich married couple — the sophisticated Anne (that's Stacy Martin), a former actor, and Dave (played by Jack Farthing), a jerk businessman who specializes in a kind of bullying friendliness. Tom enjoys teaching Anton, and starts doing the family favors. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Anne and Dave are dangerously unhappy, and for those of us raised on \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/07/31/746391982/double-indemnity-is-75-but-anklets-and-film-noir-are-forever\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>Double Indemnity\u003c/em>\u003c/a> and \u003cem>Body Heat\u003c/em>, we start waiting for the inevitable torrid sex scene and murder. And we worry for Tom, a decent guy who Riley gives a very nice vibe. \u003c/p>\u003cp>As Tom guides them around the island and gets pushed into taking Dave out clubbing, I wondered if he'd never seen a film noir. Otherwise, he'd know he's heading for trouble. Eventually that trouble comes: Dave disappears, the cops are called in, and it turns out Anne hasn't been entirely forthcoming.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Yet what makes \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> good is that it's not just another reheated noir. As our anxiety mounts — a feeling accentuated by the musical score — we begin to pick through the story's sly hints and possible clues. Have Tom and Anne actually met before? Why exactly is Tom drawn to Anton? Why is he bending over backwards for people he barely knows? Is he hoping to escape his spiritual solitude by throwing himself into the search for the missing Dave?\u003c/p>\u003cp>The movie makes us feel Tom's — indeed everyone's — isolation; it's not for nothing the film is called \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em>. Gerster's carefully calibrated images show how the characters are defined by the meaningless beauty of the island — where even the sunset can feel a bit cold — and the meaningless pleasures of holiday reveling: swatting tennis balls back and forth, guzzling drink after drink, throwing one's music-fueled arms toward the sky in the disco. Over and over and over again.\u003c/p>\u003cp>In its blend of high-art style and pulp crime story, \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> is a nifty piece of what we might call Existential Pop. While both its style and story clearly suggest a male riff on Michelangelo Antonioni's great film \u003cem>L'Avventura\u003c/em> — whose heroine goes looking for a mysteriously vanished woman — \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> also made me think of Houellebecq's nifty novella \u003cem>Lanzarote\u003c/em>, about an alienated hedonist's search for meaning on another of the Canary Islands, and even \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/02/13/nx-s1-5295015/the-white-lotus-season-3-thailand-review\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>The White Lotus\u003c/em>\u003c/a> TV series, where both tourists and hotel employees face crises that call their lives into question.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Now I'm happy to say that, for all its metaphysical overtones, \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> doesn't end on one of those unresolved enigmas that leaves you shrieking at the screen. We learn everything we need to know, and so does our hero. Realizing he's confused inertia for contentment, Tom finally grasps that the only way to stop his life from being empty is to do something meaningful to fill it up.\u003cbr> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>After the apocalyptic death and destruction of World War II, entire nations struggled to start anew amidst the physical and psychological rubble. There was a steady outpouring of stories that took place in settings that were barren, stripped down, inhospitable. \u003c/p>\u003cp>The most famous of these was probably \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/09/17/nx-s1-5364661/keanu-reeves-alex-winter-waiting-for-godot-broadway\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>Waiting for Godot\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, whose stage decoration is described thus: \"A country road. A tree. Evening.\" Such a landscape is itself a statement about the stark reality of existence, one shared by countless postwar movies and books whose characters inhabit deserts, empty beaches, mountain fortresses, bombed-out cities and impoverished villages.\u003c/p>\u003cp>You get a modern, upmarket version of this kind of arid landscape in \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em>, a teasingly spare, slow-burn drama by German filmmaker Jan-Ole Gerster, here working in English. Set on Fuerteventura — one of Spain's Canary Islands, off the coast of North Africa — it lures you in like a conventional thriller then turns into something less predictable.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Looking a bit like \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/08/16/751928219/pete-fonda-hollywoods-easy-rider-dies-at-79\" target=\"_blank\">Peter Fonda\u003c/a> in his scruffy days, Sam Riley plays the quietly sympathetic Tom, a broken-down tennis pro who has ended up on Fuerteventura, a small island that's basically a collection of beaches, volcanic slag and craggy cliffs. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Tom gives tennis lessons to the guests of a luxury hotel that, in these surroundings, looks like the QE2 has somehow docked on the moon. Although his life might appear enviable — days in the sun; nights of dancing, drinking and women eager to party — he wakes up with the daily hangover of a man trying to convince himself that purgatory is paradise.\u003c/p>\u003cp>This changes when he starts giving tennis lessons to Anton, the young son of a rich married couple — the sophisticated Anne (that's Stacy Martin), a former actor, and Dave (played by Jack Farthing), a jerk businessman who specializes in a kind of bullying friendliness. Tom enjoys teaching Anton, and starts doing the family favors. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Anne and Dave are dangerously unhappy, and for those of us raised on \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/07/31/746391982/double-indemnity-is-75-but-anklets-and-film-noir-are-forever\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>Double Indemnity\u003c/em>\u003c/a> and \u003cem>Body Heat\u003c/em>, we start waiting for the inevitable torrid sex scene and murder. And we worry for Tom, a decent guy who Riley gives a very nice vibe. \u003c/p>\u003cp>As Tom guides them around the island and gets pushed into taking Dave out clubbing, I wondered if he'd never seen a film noir. Otherwise, he'd know he's heading for trouble. Eventually that trouble comes: Dave disappears, the cops are called in, and it turns out Anne hasn't been entirely forthcoming.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Yet what makes \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> good is that it's not just another reheated noir. As our anxiety mounts — a feeling accentuated by the musical score — we begin to pick through the story's sly hints and possible clues. Have Tom and Anne actually met before? Why exactly is Tom drawn to Anton? Why is he bending over backwards for people he barely knows? Is he hoping to escape his spiritual solitude by throwing himself into the search for the missing Dave?\u003c/p>\u003cp>The movie makes us feel Tom's — indeed everyone's — isolation; it's not for nothing the film is called \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em>. Gerster's carefully calibrated images show how the characters are defined by the meaningless beauty of the island — where even the sunset can feel a bit cold — and the meaningless pleasures of holiday reveling: swatting tennis balls back and forth, guzzling drink after drink, throwing one's music-fueled arms toward the sky in the disco. Over and over and over again.\u003c/p>\u003cp>In its blend of high-art style and pulp crime story, \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> is a nifty piece of what we might call Existential Pop. While both its style and story clearly suggest a male riff on Michelangelo Antonioni's great film \u003cem>L'Avventura\u003c/em> — whose heroine goes looking for a mysteriously vanished woman — \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> also made me think of Houellebecq's nifty novella \u003cem>Lanzarote\u003c/em>, about an alienated hedonist's search for meaning on another of the Canary Islands, and even \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/02/13/nx-s1-5295015/the-white-lotus-season-3-thailand-review\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>The White Lotus\u003c/em>\u003c/a> TV series, where both tourists and hotel employees face crises that call their lives into question.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Now I'm happy to say that, for all its metaphysical overtones, \u003cem>Islands\u003c/em> doesn't end on one of those unresolved enigmas that leaves you shrieking at the screen. We learn everything we need to know, and so does our hero. Realizing he's confused inertia for contentment, Tom finally grasps that the only way to stop his life from being empty is to do something meaningful to fill it up.\u003cbr> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "filmmaker-guillermo-del-toro-says-id-rather-die-than-use-generative-ai",
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"title": "Filmmaker Guillermo del Toro says 'I'd rather die' than use generative AI",
"excerpt": "Del Toro's \u003cem>Frankenstein\u003c/em>, which reimagines Mary Shelley's 1818 Gothic novel, has been nominated for nine Academy Awards, including Best Picture. \u003cem>Originally broadcast Oct. 23, 2025.\u003c/em>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Del Toro's \u003cem>Frankenstein\u003c/em>, which reimagines Mary Shelley's 1818 Gothic novel, has been nominated for nine Academy Awards, including Best Picture. \u003cem>Originally broadcast Oct. 23, 2025.\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Del Toro's \u003cem>Frankenstein\u003c/em>, which reimagines Mary Shelley's 1818 Gothic novel, has been nominated for nine Academy Awards, including Best Picture. \u003cem>Originally broadcast Oct. 23, 2025.\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "george-saunders-vigil-is-a-brief-and-bumpy-return-to-the-bardo",
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"title": "George Saunders' 'Vigil' is a brief and bumpy return to the Bardo",
"excerpt": "The Bardo is a Tibetan Buddhist idea of a suspended state between life and death. Saunders explored the concept in his 2017 novel, \u003cem>Lincoln in the Bardo, \u003c/em>and circles back to it again in his new novel \u003cem>Vigil.\u003c/em>",
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"content": "\u003cp>If Heaven, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/artists/15321830/talking-heads\" target=\"_blank\">Talking Heads\u003c/a>, is the place where nothing ever happens, the Bardo\u003cem>,\u003c/em> according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148230592/george-saunders-on-slaughterhouses-and-obscene-poetry\" target=\"_blank\">George Saunders\u003c/a>, is as jam-packed and frantic as Costco on Black Friday. We Saunders fans have been to the Bardo before — that suspended state between life and death where, according to Tibetan Buddhism, a person's self-awareness helps determine what kind of existence they'll enter next.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Saunders set much of his magnificent 2017 debut novel, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2017/02/09/514294006/george-saunders-re-imagines-a-presidents-grief-with-lincoln-in-the-bardo\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>Lincoln in the Bardo\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>,\u003c/em> in the actual mausoleum and surrounding cemetery where in, February of 1862, Abraham Lincoln sat cradling the body of his 11-year-old son, Willie, who'd died of typhoid fever. \u003c/p>\u003cp>In Saunders' rendering, the Lincoln Pietà sits at the center of a crowd of Bardo dwellers: cracking crude jokes, demanding attention, exuding empathy, nastiness, indifference — in short, dead people behaving like exaggerated versions of their living selves. The enlightenment that some of these dead achieve is what the novel also delivered for many of us readers: a deepened sense, however momentary, of the mystery of Existence.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Vigil \u003c/em>is a briefer and bumpier return visit back to the Bardo. Instead of the mythic grief of Lincoln, here we have the passing of one somewhat mundane, if contemptible, human being. K.J. Boone was — and for a few more hours, still is — an oil company CEO. \u003c/p>\u003cp>To Boone, corporate greed and fossil fuels power the engine of American capitalism — and he sees nothing wrong with the way things are. In fact, to keep profits soaring, he went so far as to falsify facts about scientific research. Think Mr. Potter from \u003cem>It's a\u003c/em> \u003cem>Wonderful Life\u003c/em> for the Climate Change era.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Plummeting down into Boone's palatial bedroom from a more elevated spiritual realm is a woman named Jill \"Doll\" Blaine. (\"Doll,\" was Jill's nickname before her sudden death in an explosion at 22.) In her role as spiritual facilitator, Jill has attended some 343 passings. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Jill's mission is to console those terrified by the transition from life to death; she also urges the dying to undertake a final review of their lives, but Boone isn't buying it. He sees nothing wrong with himself. As one of the many Bardo dwellers who visits Boone's deathbed says: \"His long service to his colossal ego begins to undo him.\" \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Vigil\u003c/em> is a good, but not great short novel. Boone is just too much a stereotypical Captain of Industry to be the abiding center of interest here. That's why the novel comes alive halfway through when its focus turns to Jill, our flawed spiritual messenger. \u003c/p>\u003cp>A wedding taking place next door to Boone's house prompts Jill to recall her former life with such longing that she risks becoming stuck in the earthly realm. Here's a moment where Jill's grandmother (known as \"Grandma Gust\" because she frequently breaks wind) whisks her off to a cemetery to see some graves that may shock her out of her nostalgia. Also buried in the cemetery are Jill's parents. Jills says:\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cblockquote>\u003cdiv>\u003cp>Seeing their graves was the hardest blow of all.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I used to come in from playing and there they’d be. They used to come in from being out somewhere and there I’d be, on the couch, maybe, and I’d jump up, so happy to see them.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Once there’d been no me and then they’d come along and made me and now I was gone and they were too.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>What was the point of it all?\u003cbr>...\u003cbr>Grandma said. What keeps you here, doll?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>What keeps \u003cem>you \u003c/em>here? I said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>She leaned forward to answer, as about to tell me some long-kept secret.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Then did a little fart, like in the old days, so we might part on good terms.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/blockquote>\u003c/p>\u003cp>That wild swirl of the bodily profane and the spiritual; the elegiac and the comical is what makes Saunders' writing so spectacular and thankfully, the sections where Jill takes center stage call it forth.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Of course, I feel a little regretful about saying anything negative about Saunders' work given that he's been elevated to secular sainthood ever since he gave that viral \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJWd_m-LgY\" target=\"_blank\">commencement address\u003c/a> at Syracuse University in 2013 on the topic of kindness. Surely, the Bardo must be packed with critics struggling to let go of ego; atoning for negative and even mixed reviews like this one.\u003cbr> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>If Heaven, according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/artists/15321830/talking-heads\" target=\"_blank\">Talking Heads\u003c/a>, is the place where nothing ever happens, the Bardo\u003cem>,\u003c/em> according to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/01/10/1148230592/george-saunders-on-slaughterhouses-and-obscene-poetry\" target=\"_blank\">George Saunders\u003c/a>, is as jam-packed and frantic as Costco on Black Friday. We Saunders fans have been to the Bardo before — that suspended state between life and death where, according to Tibetan Buddhism, a person's self-awareness helps determine what kind of existence they'll enter next.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Saunders set much of his magnificent 2017 debut novel, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2017/02/09/514294006/george-saunders-re-imagines-a-presidents-grief-with-lincoln-in-the-bardo\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cem>Lincoln in the Bardo\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>,\u003c/em> in the actual mausoleum and surrounding cemetery where in, February of 1862, Abraham Lincoln sat cradling the body of his 11-year-old son, Willie, who'd died of typhoid fever. \u003c/p>\u003cp>In Saunders' rendering, the Lincoln Pietà sits at the center of a crowd of Bardo dwellers: cracking crude jokes, demanding attention, exuding empathy, nastiness, indifference — in short, dead people behaving like exaggerated versions of their living selves. The enlightenment that some of these dead achieve is what the novel also delivered for many of us readers: a deepened sense, however momentary, of the mystery of Existence.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Vigil \u003c/em>is a briefer and bumpier return visit back to the Bardo. Instead of the mythic grief of Lincoln, here we have the passing of one somewhat mundane, if contemptible, human being. K.J. Boone was — and for a few more hours, still is — an oil company CEO. \u003c/p>\u003cp>To Boone, corporate greed and fossil fuels power the engine of American capitalism — and he sees nothing wrong with the way things are. In fact, to keep profits soaring, he went so far as to falsify facts about scientific research. Think Mr. Potter from \u003cem>It's a\u003c/em> \u003cem>Wonderful Life\u003c/em> for the Climate Change era.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Plummeting down into Boone's palatial bedroom from a more elevated spiritual realm is a woman named Jill \"Doll\" Blaine. (\"Doll,\" was Jill's nickname before her sudden death in an explosion at 22.) In her role as spiritual facilitator, Jill has attended some 343 passings. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Jill's mission is to console those terrified by the transition from life to death; she also urges the dying to undertake a final review of their lives, but Boone isn't buying it. He sees nothing wrong with himself. As one of the many Bardo dwellers who visits Boone's deathbed says: \"His long service to his colossal ego begins to undo him.\" \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Vigil\u003c/em> is a good, but not great short novel. Boone is just too much a stereotypical Captain of Industry to be the abiding center of interest here. That's why the novel comes alive halfway through when its focus turns to Jill, our flawed spiritual messenger. \u003c/p>\u003cp>A wedding taking place next door to Boone's house prompts Jill to recall her former life with such longing that she risks becoming stuck in the earthly realm. Here's a moment where Jill's grandmother (known as \"Grandma Gust\" because she frequently breaks wind) whisks her off to a cemetery to see some graves that may shock her out of her nostalgia. Also buried in the cemetery are Jill's parents. Jills says:\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cblockquote>\u003cdiv>\u003cp>Seeing their graves was the hardest blow of all.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I used to come in from playing and there they’d be. They used to come in from being out somewhere and there I’d be, on the couch, maybe, and I’d jump up, so happy to see them.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Once there’d been no me and then they’d come along and made me and now I was gone and they were too.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>What was the point of it all?\u003cbr>...\u003cbr>Grandma said. What keeps you here, doll?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>What keeps \u003cem>you \u003c/em>here? I said.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>She leaned forward to answer, as about to tell me some long-kept secret.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Then did a little fart, like in the old days, so we might part on good terms.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/blockquote>\u003c/p>\u003cp>That wild swirl of the bodily profane and the spiritual; the elegiac and the comical is what makes Saunders' writing so spectacular and thankfully, the sections where Jill takes center stage call it forth.\u003c/p>\u003cp>Of course, I feel a little regretful about saying anything negative about Saunders' work given that he's been elevated to secular sainthood ever since he gave that viral \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruJWd_m-LgY\" target=\"_blank\">commencement address\u003c/a> at Syracuse University in 2013 on the topic of kindness. Surely, the Bardo must be packed with critics struggling to let go of ego; atoning for negative and even mixed reviews like this one.\u003cbr> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "Former NBC producer tells her own story about Matt Lauer in 'Unspeakable Things'",
"excerpt": "Brooke Nevils was working for NBC at the Sochi Olympics when, she says, she was sexually assaulted by \u003cem>Today Show\u003c/em> host Matt Lauer — a claim he denies. Nevils' new memoir is \u003cem>Unspeakable Things.\u003c/em>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Former \u003cem>Today Show\u003c/em> producer Brooke Nevils grew up in St. Louis, where she watched the NBC show every morning before school, and felt a special connection to its hosts. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"When \u003cem>Today \u003c/em>would come on and you heard that opening music, it felt like you were transported to the center of the world where everything was happening,\" she says. \"It was Matt [Lauer], \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/10/26/1049012311/katie-couric-going-there-memoir\" target=\"_blank\">Katie [Couric]\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2018/02/21/587253583/ann-curry-on-journalism-her-pbs-series-and-working-on-the-today-show\" target=\"_blank\">Ann [Curry]\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2013/02/18/172118891/al-roker-on-being-the-jolly-fat-person\" target=\"_blank\">Al [Roker]\u003c/a>. It felt like family to me.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>After studying journalism in college Nevils was thrilled when she landed a job in the NBC page program and was assigned to \u003cem>Today\u003c/em>. In 2014, she traveled to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/theedge/2014/02/07/273039026/sochi-winter-olympics-opening-ceremony-live-blog\" target=\"_blank\">Sochi, Russia\u003c/a>, to assist in NBC's coverage of the winter Olympics.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\"I was mainly there just as a talent assistant,\" Nevils says. \"So, it was my job to make sure things went as smoothly as possible for [host \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/09/136133813/meredith-vieira-to-leave-nbc-s-today-show\" target=\"_blank\">Meredith Vieira\u003c/a>] and the other talent that was there.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>The other talent included longtime \u003cem>Today\u003c/em> host Matt Lauer. Nevils says that one\u003cem> \u003c/em>night, toward the end of her time in Sochi, she was celebrating in a bar with Vieira and other colleagues when Lauer joined their table.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\"He came over and sat with us, and I felt like it couldn't possibly be real,\" she says. \"These were two people [Lauer and Vieira] that I had admired as journalists, as people, since I was a little girl. And I truly could not believe I was sitting there with a seat at the table with them. And I think I got carried away.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Nevils says Lauer ordered vodka shots, which she drank. She says he invited her back to his hotel room and then sexually assaulted her. They had additional sexual encounters after they returned to New York following the Olympics. In a \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/6463551/Matt-Lauer-Open-Letter.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">2019 statement\u003c/a>, Lauer wrote that his interactions with Nevils were \"completely mutual and consensual.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Nevils says she didn't initially report the Sochi incident for several reasons, primarily fear for her career. But a few years later, as the #MeToo movement gained momentum, she went to human resources and \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567145816/nbc-news-fires-matt-lauer-over-inappropriate-sexual-behavior\" target=\"_blank\">Lauer was fired\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/10/15/770249717/ronan-farrow-catch-and-kill-tactics-protected-both-weinstein-and-trump\" target=\"_blank\">Ronan Farrow\u003c/a> reported Nevils' allegations in his 2019 book \u003cem>Catch and Kill.\u003c/em> Now, Nevils tells her story in the new memoir, \u003cem>Unspeakable Things: Silence, Shame, and the Stories We Choose to Believe. \u003c/em>As a married mother of two, she worries that her children may one day be \"tortured\" by what she writes about. But, she adds, \"it's my job to prepare them for the hard things in life, and part of that is giving them the opportunity to learn from my mistakes, to be honest with them and say I wasn't perfect — but I still didn't deserve what happened to me.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003chr />\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>Interview highlights\u003c/h3>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On the power differential between her and Lauer \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>When your job is to work with the talent, when these are people who have to be kept happy, their opinion of you can make or break your career. Annoying them can mean you're never allowed on a set again — that changes the dynamic of every single interaction that you have.\u003c/p>\u003cp>And another part of that is that any attention that they give you professionally, you feel is a positive thing that you are lucky to get. And people who are in power know they're in power. That's something that they wield every single day. … So when you're a person in power and you ask someone less powerful to do something, you have the responsibility to think about whether they are able to say no, whether they will feel comfortable saying no, whether they can be penalized for saying no.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On believing that if she went to HR, her career was over \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>When I made that complaint, I knew who Matt Lauer was. I knew what he meant to the company. I knew what the \u003cem>Today Show \u003c/em>meant to millions and millions of people because I was one of those people. It meant the world to me. I knew what NBC meant to me, it was my family. It was my identity. And I knew I was breaking a sort of code by speaking up. And I assumed that the only career that would be ended by that would be mine. And I was OK with that, because whatever the consequences were, I knew I could not live with the knowledge that if I didn't say something, it could continue.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On writing a very detailed account of the alleged assault \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>What was important to me was to acknowledge how complicated it was, how confusing it was, how I came to be in that room in the first place and how these things really happened. Because when we're talking about something difficult, something painful, I think the human impulse is to make it easy to understand, is to simplify it and kind of make it more black and white, so it's easier to talk about. But the point of talking about this is to acknowledge just how devastating and confusing these things are, how quickly it happens, how you react in the moment. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"Reaction\" is really the right word. It's more a reaction than a choice. And when you look back on it later, you second guess absolutely every single move that you made without really understanding what happened. Because in the aftermath of sexual harassment, of sexual assault, you're always looking to give the benefit of the doubt, especially when it's someone you know. You don't want this horrible thing to have happened. You want things to be OK. So you blame yourself as a way of convincing yourself you were in control the whole time.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On using the word assault and not rape\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>Rape is a word I hardly ever use because when you hear the word rape, you think of a guy in a ski mask in the dark alley and fighting for your life. And that's just not the reality of how sexual assaults happen when most of the time it's someone that you know and trust. So we don't really have language to talk about this and we certainly didn't in 2017 when I was reporting it. It takes a very long time to really process and get to the point where you can talk about it in those terms, and those terms are devastating. When you say sexual assault, when you say rape, your life changes. You have a target on your back. Every single thing that you say or that you don't say becomes evidence.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Anna Bauman and Thea Chaloner produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Former \u003cem>Today Show\u003c/em> producer Brooke Nevils grew up in St. Louis, where she watched the NBC show every morning before school, and felt a special connection to its hosts. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"When \u003cem>Today \u003c/em>would come on and you heard that opening music, it felt like you were transported to the center of the world where everything was happening,\" she says. \"It was Matt [Lauer], \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2021/10/26/1049012311/katie-couric-going-there-memoir\" target=\"_blank\">Katie [Couric]\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2018/02/21/587253583/ann-curry-on-journalism-her-pbs-series-and-working-on-the-today-show\" target=\"_blank\">Ann [Curry]\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2013/02/18/172118891/al-roker-on-being-the-jolly-fat-person\" target=\"_blank\">Al [Roker]\u003c/a>. It felt like family to me.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>After studying journalism in college Nevils was thrilled when she landed a job in the NBC page program and was assigned to \u003cem>Today\u003c/em>. In 2014, she traveled to \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/theedge/2014/02/07/273039026/sochi-winter-olympics-opening-ceremony-live-blog\" target=\"_blank\">Sochi, Russia\u003c/a>, to assist in NBC's coverage of the winter Olympics.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\"I was mainly there just as a talent assistant,\" Nevils says. \"So, it was my job to make sure things went as smoothly as possible for [host \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/05/09/136133813/meredith-vieira-to-leave-nbc-s-today-show\" target=\"_blank\">Meredith Vieira\u003c/a>] and the other talent that was there.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>The other talent included longtime \u003cem>Today\u003c/em> host Matt Lauer. Nevils says that one\u003cem> \u003c/em>night, toward the end of her time in Sochi, she was celebrating in a bar with Vieira and other colleagues when Lauer joined their table.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\"He came over and sat with us, and I felt like it couldn't possibly be real,\" she says. \"These were two people [Lauer and Vieira] that I had admired as journalists, as people, since I was a little girl. And I truly could not believe I was sitting there with a seat at the table with them. And I think I got carried away.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Nevils says Lauer ordered vodka shots, which she drank. She says he invited her back to his hotel room and then sexually assaulted her. They had additional sexual encounters after they returned to New York following the Olympics. In a \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/6463551/Matt-Lauer-Open-Letter.pdf\" target=\"_blank\">2019 statement\u003c/a>, Lauer wrote that his interactions with Nevils were \"completely mutual and consensual.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Nevils says she didn't initially report the Sochi incident for several reasons, primarily fear for her career. But a few years later, as the #MeToo movement gained momentum, she went to human resources and \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567145816/nbc-news-fires-matt-lauer-over-inappropriate-sexual-behavior\" target=\"_blank\">Lauer was fired\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2019/10/15/770249717/ronan-farrow-catch-and-kill-tactics-protected-both-weinstein-and-trump\" target=\"_blank\">Ronan Farrow\u003c/a> reported Nevils' allegations in his 2019 book \u003cem>Catch and Kill.\u003c/em> Now, Nevils tells her story in the new memoir, \u003cem>Unspeakable Things: Silence, Shame, and the Stories We Choose to Believe. \u003c/em>As a married mother of two, she worries that her children may one day be \"tortured\" by what she writes about. But, she adds, \"it's my job to prepare them for the hard things in life, and part of that is giving them the opportunity to learn from my mistakes, to be honest with them and say I wasn't perfect — but I still didn't deserve what happened to me.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003chr />\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>Interview highlights\u003c/h3>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On the power differential between her and Lauer \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>When your job is to work with the talent, when these are people who have to be kept happy, their opinion of you can make or break your career. Annoying them can mean you're never allowed on a set again — that changes the dynamic of every single interaction that you have.\u003c/p>\u003cp>And another part of that is that any attention that they give you professionally, you feel is a positive thing that you are lucky to get. And people who are in power know they're in power. That's something that they wield every single day. … So when you're a person in power and you ask someone less powerful to do something, you have the responsibility to think about whether they are able to say no, whether they will feel comfortable saying no, whether they can be penalized for saying no.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On believing that if she went to HR, her career was over \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>When I made that complaint, I knew who Matt Lauer was. I knew what he meant to the company. I knew what the \u003cem>Today Show \u003c/em>meant to millions and millions of people because I was one of those people. It meant the world to me. I knew what NBC meant to me, it was my family. It was my identity. And I knew I was breaking a sort of code by speaking up. And I assumed that the only career that would be ended by that would be mine. And I was OK with that, because whatever the consequences were, I knew I could not live with the knowledge that if I didn't say something, it could continue.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On writing a very detailed account of the alleged assault \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>What was important to me was to acknowledge how complicated it was, how confusing it was, how I came to be in that room in the first place and how these things really happened. Because when we're talking about something difficult, something painful, I think the human impulse is to make it easy to understand, is to simplify it and kind of make it more black and white, so it's easier to talk about. But the point of talking about this is to acknowledge just how devastating and confusing these things are, how quickly it happens, how you react in the moment. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"Reaction\" is really the right word. It's more a reaction than a choice. And when you look back on it later, you second guess absolutely every single move that you made without really understanding what happened. Because in the aftermath of sexual harassment, of sexual assault, you're always looking to give the benefit of the doubt, especially when it's someone you know. You don't want this horrible thing to have happened. You want things to be OK. So you blame yourself as a way of convincing yourself you were in control the whole time.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On using the word assault and not rape\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>Rape is a word I hardly ever use because when you hear the word rape, you think of a guy in a ski mask in the dark alley and fighting for your life. And that's just not the reality of how sexual assaults happen when most of the time it's someone that you know and trust. So we don't really have language to talk about this and we certainly didn't in 2017 when I was reporting it. It takes a very long time to really process and get to the point where you can talk about it in those terms, and those terms are devastating. When you say sexual assault, when you say rape, your life changes. You have a target on your back. Every single thing that you say or that you don't say becomes evidence.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Anna Bauman and Thea Chaloner produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Beth Novey adapted it for the web.\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"excerpt": "Writer Jason Zengerle says Carlson had the foresight to see Trump's potential in 2015. Now he's someone the president \"definitely listens to.\" Zengerle's new book is \u003cem>Hated by All the Right People.\u003c/em>",
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"content": "\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/tags/998118614/donald-j-trump\" target=\"_blank\">Donald Trump\u003c/a> first announced that he was \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/16/414913035/donald-trump-is-in-promises-to-make-america-great-again\" target=\"_blank\">running for president\u003c/a> in 2015, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/tags/705503197/tucker-carlson\" target=\"_blank\">Tucker Carlson\u003c/a>, then the host of \u003cem>Fox & Friends Weekend\u003c/em>, was one of the few pundits who took his candidacy seriously. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"[Carlson] recognized that a nativist candidate running on white grievance actually might do pretty well in a Republican primary,\" \u003cem>New Yorker\u003c/em> writer \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2009/08/28/112326133/the-new-republic-kennedy-dynasty-not-over\" target=\"_blank\">Jason Zengerle\u003c/a> says. \"His star rose at Fox because he kind of had the foresight to see Trump coming.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>In his new book, \u003cem>Hated by All the Right People: Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind, \u003c/em>Zengerle traces Carlson's ascendency, and explains how he became one of the most influential people on the far right. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"He is someone that Donald Trump definitely listens to, definitely wants to hear from. And Carlson is more than happy to provide his thoughts and his advice,\" Zengerle says. \"That doesn't mean that Trump always takes that advice, and there have certainly been instances where Carlson's been disappointed by some of Trump's decisions, but he seems to have a seat at the table.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Carlson got his start in conservative print media and transitioned to TV in the early days of cable news. After he was let go from CNN and MSNBC (now MS NOW), he was hired by Fox, then \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/04/24/1171641969/fox-news-fires-tucker-carlson-in-stunning-move-a-week-after-787-million-settleme\" target=\"_blank\">abruptly fired\u003c/a> in 2023. He has since launched a new streaming show on the social media platform X, where he's espoused far-right fringe positions, such the \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1099233034/the-great-replacement-conspiracy-theory-isnt-fringe-anymore-its-mainstream\" target=\"_blank\">\"great replacement\" conspiracy theory\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\"Since leaving Fox, he doesn't have a built-in audience anymore and he has to navigate the attention economy. And in order to get people to listen to his podcast, I think he has kind of embraced more outrageous views,\" Zengerle says. \"He's saying things before in a more explicit fashion, whereas in the past he tried to modulate his rhetoric a little bit.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Zengerle sees the throughline of Carlson's career as a desire for \"fame, fortune and power.\" To that end, he would not be surprised if Carlson ran for office himself. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"It's a mistake to think of him as just a media figure because I think his ambitions are bigger than that,\" Zengerle says. \"He operates as a political actor, maybe even more than a media actor at this point.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003chr />\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>Interview highlights \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On Carlson's shift from print journalism to TV in the '90s\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>The things that he was good at, in terms of being glib and having an opinion on everything and just being able to appear reasonably intelligent on camera, that was the start of his career. … He would spend all this time and energy crafting these [print] stories, and it might get a little bit of a response. And then he would go on some TV show and make some off-handed remark, and a cabinet member would call him to talk about it. And I think that it was that sort of recognition that made him think that TV was the way to go.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2015/08/06/429851718/jon-stewart-on-his-daily-show-run-it-so-far-exceeded-my-expectations\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cstrong>Jon Stewart\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>'s \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cstrong>\u003cu>2004 appearance\u003c/u>\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong> on CNN's \u003cem>Crossfire, \u003c/em>which led to the show's cancellation \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>I think [it] was a really important moment in Tucker's career and life, because it was a humiliation. He was sort of friendly with Stewart. … He knew, obviously, that Stewart had kind of a dim view of \u003cem>Crossfire\u003c/em> and a dim view of cable news. But they all thought they were kind of … play acting the way\u003cem> Crossfire\u003c/em> was, you know? You would argue with this person for 30 minutes and then afterwards you'd go out and have a steak and a drink and everybody was sort of doing the same thing, and it was like professional wrestling in some ways. When Stewart came on there and wasn't part of that game, I think Tucker was really surprised and he tried to debate Stewart and Stewart just destroyed him, and destroyed him in front of a studio audience. … It led to the cancellation of the show. It led to Tucker leaving CNN.\u003c/p>\u003cp>I think it was a really important moment in his life and his career because he was a member in good standing of the Washington political and media elite, and I think he felt that his friends in that world did not come to his aid and did not support him the way he would have wanted them to. And so years later, when he developed this populist streak and really turned against people in Washington and legacy media and the things like that, I think he remembered that moment and some of his bitterness towards those people really came out at that point.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On Carlson co-founding the conservative website \u003cem>The Daily Caller\u003c/em> in 2010 and pivoting from reporting to tabloidy content \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>When he launched\u003cem> The Daily Caller\u003c/em>, his idea for it was it was going to be a right-wing version of sort of a combination [of] \u003cem>Huffington Post\u003c/em> and \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>. He wanted it to be a very fact-based, heavily reported website. He had a critique of conservative media that conservatives didn't report, they just opined and, \"We need to get back to reporting. We need to get back to presenting facts, and we need to be serious about the news.\" And that was his vision for \u003cem>The Caller\u003c/em>. I think within a couple months, looking at the website's traffic, he realized that there was not an audience for that kind of conservative publication — and he pivoted, and he kind of went more in the direction of tabloidy, kind of outrageous stuff. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Increasingly, I think he saw that the types of stories that were getting attention, that were [getting] a lot of traffic, getting clicks, had to do with race, had to do with immigration, and had to do with gender, and he just leaned into that. Eventually he kind of found himself in this competition with \u003cem>Breitbart\u003c/em> that Steve Bannon was running at the time. And it was just kind of this race to the bottom in terms of who could write more kind of inflammatory and incendiary stories about Black-on-white crime or about immigrant crime and things like that. And he saw that there was an audience there for that.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On Carlson climbing the ranks at Fox\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>He really was kind of an afterthought at Fox. You had the stars, you had the \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/19/524736631/bill-oreilly-is-out-at-fox-news\" target=\"_blank\">Bill O'Reillys\u003c/a>, you had the \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2022/12/22/1144926308/fox-news-sean-hannity-dominion-lawsuit-trump\" target=\"_blank\">Sean Hannitys\u003c/a>. Tucker was just this guy who they could put on the weekend \u003cem>Fox & Friends\u003c/em> show and he had some television experience. He was conservative, so he wasn't going to say anything that veered from the party line. He was just kind of a bit player. ...\u003c/p>\u003cp>Then he got his own show, and he got his own show because he was able to use Trump's presidential candidacy to revive his career. ... When Trump came along, those more prestigious Fox shows, they had a basic television problem. They could not find camera-ready, intelligent human beings to go on their programs and make a sensible case for Donald Trump. And Tucker was someone who could, so ... he started getting more airtime that way. And then as Trump's candidacy took off and it became clear that Trump was going to be the Republican nominee. … By the end of the campaign, [Fox News CEO] \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/18/528925119/roger-ailes-former-fox-news-ceo-dies-at-77\" target=\"_blank\">Roger Ailes\u003c/a> had been fired because of the sexual harassment scandal. [News Corps CEO] \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/09/08/nx-s1-5534435/rupert-murdoch-fox-news-family-succession-lachlan\" target=\"_blank\">Rupert Murdoch\u003c/a> was now running the network. And the first big move Murdoch made was taking Tucker and giving him his own show at 7 p.m.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Thea Chaloner\u003c/em> \u003cem>and Susan Nyakundi produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Brett Neely adapted it for the web.\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>When \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/tags/998118614/donald-j-trump\" target=\"_blank\">Donald Trump\u003c/a> first announced that he was \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/16/414913035/donald-trump-is-in-promises-to-make-america-great-again\" target=\"_blank\">running for president\u003c/a> in 2015, \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/tags/705503197/tucker-carlson\" target=\"_blank\">Tucker Carlson\u003c/a>, then the host of \u003cem>Fox & Friends Weekend\u003c/em>, was one of the few pundits who took his candidacy seriously. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"[Carlson] recognized that a nativist candidate running on white grievance actually might do pretty well in a Republican primary,\" \u003cem>New Yorker\u003c/em> writer \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2009/08/28/112326133/the-new-republic-kennedy-dynasty-not-over\" target=\"_blank\">Jason Zengerle\u003c/a> says. \"His star rose at Fox because he kind of had the foresight to see Trump coming.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>In his new book, \u003cem>Hated by All the Right People: Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind, \u003c/em>Zengerle traces Carlson's ascendency, and explains how he became one of the most influential people on the far right. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"He is someone that Donald Trump definitely listens to, definitely wants to hear from. And Carlson is more than happy to provide his thoughts and his advice,\" Zengerle says. \"That doesn't mean that Trump always takes that advice, and there have certainly been instances where Carlson's been disappointed by some of Trump's decisions, but he seems to have a seat at the table.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Carlson got his start in conservative print media and transitioned to TV in the early days of cable news. After he was let go from CNN and MSNBC (now MS NOW), he was hired by Fox, then \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2023/04/24/1171641969/fox-news-fires-tucker-carlson-in-stunning-move-a-week-after-787-million-settleme\" target=\"_blank\">abruptly fired\u003c/a> in 2023. He has since launched a new streaming show on the social media platform X, where he's espoused far-right fringe positions, such the \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2022/05/17/1099233034/the-great-replacement-conspiracy-theory-isnt-fringe-anymore-its-mainstream\" target=\"_blank\">\"great replacement\" conspiracy theory\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\"Since leaving Fox, he doesn't have a built-in audience anymore and he has to navigate the attention economy. And in order to get people to listen to his podcast, I think he has kind of embraced more outrageous views,\" Zengerle says. \"He's saying things before in a more explicit fashion, whereas in the past he tried to modulate his rhetoric a little bit.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>Zengerle sees the throughline of Carlson's career as a desire for \"fame, fortune and power.\" To that end, he would not be surprised if Carlson ran for office himself. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\"It's a mistake to think of him as just a media figure because I think his ambitions are bigger than that,\" Zengerle says. \"He operates as a political actor, maybe even more than a media actor at this point.\"\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003chr />\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003ch3>\u003cstrong>Interview highlights \u003c/strong>\u003c/h3>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On Carlson's shift from print journalism to TV in the '90s\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>The things that he was good at, in terms of being glib and having an opinion on everything and just being able to appear reasonably intelligent on camera, that was the start of his career. … He would spend all this time and energy crafting these [print] stories, and it might get a little bit of a response. And then he would go on some TV show and make some off-handed remark, and a cabinet member would call him to talk about it. And I think that it was that sort of recognition that made him think that TV was the way to go.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2015/08/06/429851718/jon-stewart-on-his-daily-show-run-it-so-far-exceeded-my-expectations\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cstrong>Jon Stewart\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong>'s \u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFQFB5YpDZE\" target=\"_blank\">\u003cstrong>\u003cu>2004 appearance\u003c/u>\u003c/strong>\u003c/a>\u003cstrong> on CNN's \u003cem>Crossfire, \u003c/em>which led to the show's cancellation \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>I think [it] was a really important moment in Tucker's career and life, because it was a humiliation. He was sort of friendly with Stewart. … He knew, obviously, that Stewart had kind of a dim view of \u003cem>Crossfire\u003c/em> and a dim view of cable news. But they all thought they were kind of … play acting the way\u003cem> Crossfire\u003c/em> was, you know? You would argue with this person for 30 minutes and then afterwards you'd go out and have a steak and a drink and everybody was sort of doing the same thing, and it was like professional wrestling in some ways. When Stewart came on there and wasn't part of that game, I think Tucker was really surprised and he tried to debate Stewart and Stewart just destroyed him, and destroyed him in front of a studio audience. … It led to the cancellation of the show. It led to Tucker leaving CNN.\u003c/p>\u003cp>I think it was a really important moment in his life and his career because he was a member in good standing of the Washington political and media elite, and I think he felt that his friends in that world did not come to his aid and did not support him the way he would have wanted them to. And so years later, when he developed this populist streak and really turned against people in Washington and legacy media and the things like that, I think he remembered that moment and some of his bitterness towards those people really came out at that point.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On Carlson co-founding the conservative website \u003cem>The Daily Caller\u003c/em> in 2010 and pivoting from reporting to tabloidy content \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>When he launched\u003cem> The Daily Caller\u003c/em>, his idea for it was it was going to be a right-wing version of sort of a combination [of] \u003cem>Huffington Post\u003c/em> and \u003cem>New York Times\u003c/em>. He wanted it to be a very fact-based, heavily reported website. He had a critique of conservative media that conservatives didn't report, they just opined and, \"We need to get back to reporting. We need to get back to presenting facts, and we need to be serious about the news.\" And that was his vision for \u003cem>The Caller\u003c/em>. I think within a couple months, looking at the website's traffic, he realized that there was not an audience for that kind of conservative publication — and he pivoted, and he kind of went more in the direction of tabloidy, kind of outrageous stuff. \u003c/p>\u003cp>Increasingly, I think he saw that the types of stories that were getting attention, that were [getting] a lot of traffic, getting clicks, had to do with race, had to do with immigration, and had to do with gender, and he just leaned into that. Eventually he kind of found himself in this competition with \u003cem>Breitbart\u003c/em> that Steve Bannon was running at the time. And it was just kind of this race to the bottom in terms of who could write more kind of inflammatory and incendiary stories about Black-on-white crime or about immigrant crime and things like that. And he saw that there was an audience there for that.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cstrong>On Carlson climbing the ranks at Fox\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\u003cp>He really was kind of an afterthought at Fox. You had the stars, you had the \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/19/524736631/bill-oreilly-is-out-at-fox-news\" target=\"_blank\">Bill O'Reillys\u003c/a>, you had the \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2022/12/22/1144926308/fox-news-sean-hannity-dominion-lawsuit-trump\" target=\"_blank\">Sean Hannitys\u003c/a>. Tucker was just this guy who they could put on the weekend \u003cem>Fox & Friends\u003c/em> show and he had some television experience. He was conservative, so he wasn't going to say anything that veered from the party line. He was just kind of a bit player. ...\u003c/p>\u003cp>Then he got his own show, and he got his own show because he was able to use Trump's presidential candidacy to revive his career. ... When Trump came along, those more prestigious Fox shows, they had a basic television problem. They could not find camera-ready, intelligent human beings to go on their programs and make a sensible case for Donald Trump. And Tucker was someone who could, so ... he started getting more airtime that way. And then as Trump's candidacy took off and it became clear that Trump was going to be the Republican nominee. … By the end of the campaign, [Fox News CEO] \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/05/18/528925119/roger-ailes-former-fox-news-ceo-dies-at-77\" target=\"_blank\">Roger Ailes\u003c/a> had been fired because of the sexual harassment scandal. [News Corps CEO] \u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/2025/09/08/nx-s1-5534435/rupert-murdoch-fox-news-family-succession-lachlan\" target=\"_blank\">Rupert Murdoch\u003c/a> was now running the network. And the first big move Murdoch made was taking Tucker and giving him his own show at 7 p.m.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cem>Thea Chaloner\u003c/em> \u003cem>and Susan Nyakundi produced and edited this interview for broadcast. Bridget Bentz, Molly Seavy-Nesper and Brett Neely adapted it for the web.\u003c/em> \u003cdiv class=\"fullattribution\">Copyright 2026 NPR\u003c/div>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "How a 1984 NYC subway shooting let to the politics of resentment we see today",
"excerpt": "In \u003cem>Fear and Fury\u003c/em>, historian Heather Ann Thompson revisits Bernhard Goetz's shooting of four Black teens — and explains how the incident reshaped criminal justice, national policy and media coverage.",
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},
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"title": "The California Report Magazine",
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"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
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"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
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"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
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"meta": {
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
"fresh-air": {
"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
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"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
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"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
"link": "/radio/program/masters-of-scale",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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