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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many people who travel to and from the city of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/alameda\">Alameda\u003c/a>, Sarah Reid, one day, found herself facing a bridge that was temporarily disconnected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Park Street Bridge, a forest green drawbridge, about the length of a football field, had split open, casting the four-lane bridge at a 70-degree angle in the air so a boat could pass underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opening and closing of Alameda’s drawbridges is a familiar ritual for people who travel to the Bay Area’s island city. Alameda is connected to the rest of the Bay Area by six bridges, as well as two underwater tunnels. All but two of the bridges are required to open 24 hours a day, sometimes on very short notice, in order to let ships travel down the Oakland Estuary, which separates Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nothing to do but to wait, Reid peered through her windshield and noticed a little tower connected to the bridge, with a room full of windows at the top. She wondered if someone was inside that room, and what they did up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember wondering, does someone just sit there all day? And what is that like?” Reid said. “What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad day? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The High Street Bridge begins to lift over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There was, in fact, a bridge tender in the control tower of the Park Street Bridge that day, just as there has been for decades. Bridge tenders are the workers responsible for safely opening and closing the bridges, so that people both on land and on water can move through the area. It’s a job that comes with life -or-death public safety risks, stunning views, ample alone time, and a strong connection to the history of the island city itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A public service job with risks\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“ It’s the best job in the world,” said John Williams, a bridge tender for Alameda County Public Works Agency, who has held the job for 16 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams was the bridge tender on duty at the Park Street Bridge on a sunny winter morning earlier this year. From his perch inside the control tower, Williams could see up and down the estuary, with Berkeley and downtown Oakland in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12081386 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-08-KQED-3.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One end of the room is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette. On that particular day, there was a French press and an avocado sitting on the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because the bridges are staffed 24/7, with bridge tenders working day, swing and graveyard shifts, each bridge control tower has its own kitchenette and bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams said the perks include beautiful sunsets, great wildlife viewing and dedicated colleagues. But he also takes pride in being a public servant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines,” Williams said. “You could crush a car or kill somebody if you’re not following procedure properly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said being a bridge tender requires constant vigilance, ensuring nobody is in harm’s way when the bridge is moving. Still, there have been accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People will run on the bridge while it’s moving, and I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s just the terrestrial side of his worries. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll get a call and tug and barge is coming in with 20 tons of gravel, and a fat tide and wind behind them, and you have to open the bridge because it’s very hard for them to stop,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boats can schedule openings ahead of time or call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat captain makes an appointment at least two hours ahead of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams is relaxed and friendly in his downtime at work, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. When opening the bridge, the first thing he does is open all the blinds in the control tower, so he has full visibility. He stops speaking to anyone else around so that he can concentrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He activates an alarm bell as he makes an announcement over a loudspeaker, telling the public to stand clear. Then he drops the gates that block the road and sidewalk leading to the bridge. He double and triple checks the security cameras and walks out on a little catwalk adjacent to the tower to verify that nobody is on the bridge. Then he initiates the opening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Metal locks underneath the bridge disconnect, an electric motor deep in the bowels below the bridge begins to whir, a massive counterweight sinks into a pit and the bridge begins to rise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A flock of pigeons flies near the Park Street Bridge over the Oakland Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For second-generation bridge tender Damon Wallace, it’s a special moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re these giant machines, and you don’t realize it until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button, and then your world starts to tilt sideways,” Wallace, whose father and uncle worked as bridge tenders, said as he gazed up at the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a minute, you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happen right in front of you. It’s one of my favorite things,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the bridge reaches its apex, Williams repeats the process in reverse until the bridge is back together, and the traffic on the bridge resumes again.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The chaotic past of Alameda’s bridges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland separating it from Oakland, and bridge tenders have been part of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The problem started in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Oakland’s right there, we sure would like to get over there,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Alameda wasn’t yet an island, but connected to Oakland by a marshy stretch of land at its eastern end. Years later, in 1902, the Army Corps of Engineers would finish work dredging that channel, flooding the area connecting Oakland’s inner harbor with San Leandro Bay, making Alameda an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, even before that, crossing the marshy stretch of land connecting it to Oakland wasn’t easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first bridge to connect Alameda to Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get-go, it had its fair share of tragedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. Evanosky said it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident in which 13 people were killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt three more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing, according to Bernard C. Winn, the author of \u003cem>California Drawbridges\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials made the decision to dismantle the bridge in 1928, after the construction of the Webster Street Tube, an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda, made it obsolete. This is the pattern most of Alameda’s bridges have followed. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt at least once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070403\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070403\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator with the Alameda County Public Works Agency, sits at the controls used to raise and lower the drawbridge over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 13, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. Evanosky said early Alameda residents used to “ride the bridges,” clinging on as the bridges swung open and taking them for a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People even did this on the current version of the Park Street Bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s pretty dangerous. So they put a stop to that,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the current version of the Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda, Edith Bird, and a man from Oakland, Edward M. Drotloff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newspaper clippings from the time describe it as a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from Oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What it takes\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the High Street Bridge control tower, just a half-mile down up the estuary from the Park Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti strummed his ukulele in a moment of downtime during his shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Part of the job is to stare out the window and the ukulele accompanies it pretty good,” Cerletti said. “You have to have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator, looks out from the bridge’s operator tower on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The Miller-Sweeney Bridge is visible in the distance. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He said other bridge tenders paint watercolors or fix small electronics between bridge openings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cerletti has been a bridge tender since 2014, and said the stability of working for Alameda County has been great, he said. But the job can get a little lonely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You have to be able to be comfortable with yourself sitting up here too, because you can get go a little stir crazy being alone all the time,” Cerletti said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Generations of bridge tenders\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The work of being a bridge tender has seeped into Damon Wallace’s bones. Wallace fondly remembers moments from his youth, like when he greeted his father at the door in the morning after a graveyard shift, noticing the smell of oil, grease and work his father would bring home with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I started working here and I was like, ‘oh, that’s that smell,’ I get it now,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070400\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steel beams and the roadway deck are seen as the Park Street Bridge lifts over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The double-leaf bascule bridge spans 372 feet and is raised to about 70 degrees for most openings. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even the sound of rubber car tires driving on the bridges’ metal road deck, a sort of ever-present drone around the bridges, has become soothing for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Over the years, I’ve gotten to actually look and put hands on these things and understand what they are for and why they’re here. My childhood became my adulthood, and my world got bigger somehow,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said he’s started to bring his children to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ It’s honest work, and it’s kind of a special thing, this sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job,” Wallace said. “There’s not a lot of it left, and I’m proud to be part of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Crossing bridges can be essential to getting around the Bay Area. No matter what side of the water you live on, odds are, you’re probably going to use a bridge sooner than later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for the people who live, work or just hang out in the City of Alameda, crossing a bridge is almost non-negotiable. The island is connected to the rest of the Bay by six drawbridges, as well as two underwater tunnels, that span the Oakland Estuary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When those bridges open to let a boat pass, everybody has to wait. One day, Sarah Reid was in her car, watching the Park Street bridge open, when she noticed a little room attached to one of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember looking up at those little rooms wondering, does someone just sit up there all day? And what is that like, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She also wants to hear some stories …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad da y? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out – yeah! There’s a bridge tender sitting in that little room 24/7. And they’ve seen a lot! KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman has the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Cars on Bridge Noise\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Car tires hum against the steel deck of the Park Street Bridge. This hypnotic drone is the bridge’s soundtrack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up on these bridges. Um, the sound of the cars going overhead is, is soothing to me. It’s like a, it’s a comfort thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Damon Wallace, he’s a bridge utility worker for Alameda County’s Public Works Agency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been doing that for about two years, and prior to that I was a bridge tender. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bridge tenders are the people that operate Alameda’s drawbridges. It runs in his family, his father and his uncle both held the job when he was a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad 25 years. Uh, my uncle, uh, a little bit less than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the machinery room underneath the Park Street Bridge…its a large concrete bunker full of tools and the giant electrical motor that opens and closes the bridge\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a little Home Depot in here, just for the bridge, they’ve got everything they need to keep the bridge running which is essential because The Park Street Bridge is the busiest of Alameda’s bridges. Around 40,000 vehicles travel across its four lanes on an average weekday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up on the deck of the bridge, which is about the length of a football field we can see Berkeley, downtown Oakland, and ships at the Port of Oakland. We walk up to the bridge tower. It’s fixed on the Alameda side of the bridge, and almost looks like a little miniature clock tower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Knock, knock. Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Come on up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How you doing, John? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We head up a spiral staircase to the top floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Park Street Bridge, uh, Alameda County Public Works Agency. How you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Williams is the bridge tender on duty right now. He’s got a big white beard and his orange public works shirt tucked into his work pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s the best job in the world, you know, I mean, I, it’s really an excellent job \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The top floor is just one room with windows all around, giving the operator a 360 degree view of the bridge and the Oakland estuary. One end is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. There are a lot of big red buttons there, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">right? There are. And you don’t just randomly push them either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, that’s too bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette, there’s a french press and an avocado sitting on the counter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen a lot of wildlife out here over, over the years. You know, way l one time, lot of otters now and then, um, a lot of seabirds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some great sunsets too. John says he found the job on Craigslist. Besides the perks, he says this job has some big responsibilities. Public safety is their number one concern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A normal opening of the bridge splits the road deck in half, tons of concrete and steel lift into the sky at a 70 degree angle, about 143 feet in the air. The process requires constant vigilance and double, triple checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cause people will run on the bridge while it’s moving. They’ll go underneath the barriers. I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s just keeping the PEOPLE safe. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You get a call and tug and barge is coming in with like, you know whatever, 20 tons of gravel, you know, with a, a fat tide behind them pushing ’em in, in wind, and you have to open the bridge. You can’t not open the bridge. It’s very hard for ’em to stop. Really hard for ’em to stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All but two of Alameda’s drawbridges are staffed around the clock because ships, including the nearby Coast Guard base, need to be able to travel up and down the estuary at all hours. On a busy day, the Park Street bridge might open and close 14 different times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could be in a crowd of a thousand people and if somebody on the other side of that crowd said Park Street Bridge, I would hear them. Because I’m trained to hear it, you know, the radio call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boats can schedule openings ahead of time, or just call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat makes an appointment\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John comes off pretty relaxed and friendly, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there isn’t a ship passing, this is an operational check, that the tenders do from time to time, to make sure everything is working as it should. John starts by opening all the blinds in the little tower room. He wants full visibility. And he stops talking to me. He says he needs to concentrate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">St and clear for bridge opening. Please stand clear for Park Street Bridge opening\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First he drops the gates and barriers to keep cars and pedestrians off the bridge, and makes sure all the traffic is stopped. Then he walks out on a little catwalk extending out from the tower, and double checks that nobody is in harms way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just then, recordings of birds play underneath the bridge, in an attempt to shoo nesting pigeons away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it gets pretty quiet. The hum of traffic stops, and the bridge begins to rise. You can hear the electrical motors whirring. For Damon, the second generation bridge worker, it’s a special moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s these giant machines, and you don’t realize they’re machines until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button and the your world starts to tilt sideways.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says there’s something magical about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a minute you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happened right in front of you. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things, you know? It always has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the bridge sticking straight up in the air, John checks again before letting it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, you guys. All right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, John guides the bridge slowly back down, metal locks click back together underneath the road deck, and the traffic starts again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear the bridge tenders are essential. But in this world of technological innovation, especially artificial intelligence, I wonder, how much longer will these jobs be around? I put that question to John Medlock, he’s the Deputy Director of Maintenance Operation for Alameda County, PublicWorks Agency.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Medlock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At some point in time, you know, maybe, maybe everything needs to be replaced. We’ll probably find new technology or, or new way of spanning the, uh, the estuary. But right now that’s what we have and love it or hate it. If that’s what we have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks the bridge tenders, will be around for the foreseeable future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – some history of these drawbridges. And the unique ways bridge tenders pass the time. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nowadays Alameda’s bridges are a reliable way to get on and off the island. But it wasn’t always that way. Here’s Azul again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland … separating it from Oakland. And bridge tenders have been part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem started in, in the, in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Boy Oakland’s right over there. We’d like to get over there.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s historian Dennis Evanosky. The first bridge to connect Alameda to what’s now Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get go, it had its fair share of tragedies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge, that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. But Evanosky says it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They misunderstood a signal and, and the, the whole train dumped into the estuary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirteen people were killed. The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt 3 more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing. The bridge was dismantled for the last time, shortly after the construction of the Webster Street Tube in 1928., the tube is an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s kind of the story of all of Alameda’s bridges. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt, at least once.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So each of the bridges has two lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the people, uh, who, who were really close by when they heard the boat toot for permission, they’d all run down there and they’d ride the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Climbing on the bridge as it swung open and taking it for a ride. People even did this on the current version of the park street bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s pretty dangerous. So they, they, they put a stop to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the latest Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda and a man from Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miss Edith Bird of Alameda became Mrs. Edward M. Drotloff of Oakland yesterday afternoon. The ceremony that united them as they stood at the site of the newly-completed Park Street Bridge symbolized the uniting of the two cities by the huge structure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge. The same one that stands today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are 14 bridge tenders that work the Alameda bridges, and they switch between all 6 of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I go to visit the High Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti is the bridge tender on duty. He’s wearing orange alameda county coveralls, and a psychedelic trucker hat for a disc golf supply company. This bridge sees less traffic, so has a calmer vibe.. Across the water I can see houseboats bobbing up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a lot going on out there. It’s peaceful. The birds. Oh man. When you get these huge flocks that come flying in here and settle into the estuary, it’s like a, like a painting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vincent has been a bridge tender for more than ten years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the first regular thing that I got into that gave me a stability working for the county, which has been awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s seen some things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like a guy with a couch once came down with a, a, you know, like the small little trolling motor on the back? I think he was floating on, on a piece of a dock with a couch on it. A little motor. He’s fishing. He was having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that in order to be a bridge tender, you have to be ok with spending a lot of time by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some guys paint, paint, little, uh, pictures, you know, watercolors of the boats and stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says one bridge tender fixes electronics to pass the time. Vincent, likes to bring his Ukelele. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I just, uh, yeah. Sit here and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>(Ukelele Music)\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when you’re here on like, you know, Christmas Day and New Year’s Eve and Thanksgiving, I worked all those holidays this year. I dunno, you gotta have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you ever feel lonely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yeah, it’s kind of hard to have a relationship if you’re doing graveyards, you know, seven nights of the month and you’re on swing shift. So you take off at two o’clock and get home at 11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being a bridge tender can be tough, but its also rewarding. Here’s Damon, the bridge tender we heard from in the beginning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>It’s honest work. It’s, uh, and it’s kind of a special thing, these sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job. It, it does. There’s not a lot of it left, and, uh, I’m proud to be part of it. I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says he’s started to bring his kids to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about Alameda, including how it isn’t actually a natural island – hit up our show notes where we’ve linked some other Bay Curious episodes you might enjoy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is gearing up for KQED Fest – an all-day open house at KQED’s headquarters in San Francisco. It’s a block party with educational activities, live music, food, and more! I’ll be doing a fireside chat about how we make Bay Curious at 11:15 a.m. Tickets are free, but you do need to register. You can do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Big thanks to all our members out there who help keep Bay Curious going. If you aren’t a member yet – please consider joining at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many people who travel to and from the city of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/alameda\">Alameda\u003c/a>, Sarah Reid, one day, found herself facing a bridge that was temporarily disconnected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Park Street Bridge, a forest green drawbridge, about the length of a football field, had split open, casting the four-lane bridge at a 70-degree angle in the air so a boat could pass underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opening and closing of Alameda’s drawbridges is a familiar ritual for people who travel to the Bay Area’s island city. Alameda is connected to the rest of the Bay Area by six bridges, as well as two underwater tunnels. All but two of the bridges are required to open 24 hours a day, sometimes on very short notice, in order to let ships travel down the Oakland Estuary, which separates Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nothing to do but to wait, Reid peered through her windshield and noticed a little tower connected to the bridge, with a room full of windows at the top. She wondered if someone was inside that room, and what they did up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember wondering, does someone just sit there all day? And what is that like?” Reid said. “What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad day? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The High Street Bridge begins to lift over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There was, in fact, a bridge tender in the control tower of the Park Street Bridge that day, just as there has been for decades. Bridge tenders are the workers responsible for safely opening and closing the bridges, so that people both on land and on water can move through the area. It’s a job that comes with life -or-death public safety risks, stunning views, ample alone time, and a strong connection to the history of the island city itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A public service job with risks\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“ It’s the best job in the world,” said John Williams, a bridge tender for Alameda County Public Works Agency, who has held the job for 16 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams was the bridge tender on duty at the Park Street Bridge on a sunny winter morning earlier this year. From his perch inside the control tower, Williams could see up and down the estuary, with Berkeley and downtown Oakland in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One end of the room is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette. On that particular day, there was a French press and an avocado sitting on the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because the bridges are staffed 24/7, with bridge tenders working day, swing and graveyard shifts, each bridge control tower has its own kitchenette and bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams said the perks include beautiful sunsets, great wildlife viewing and dedicated colleagues. But he also takes pride in being a public servant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines,” Williams said. “You could crush a car or kill somebody if you’re not following procedure properly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said being a bridge tender requires constant vigilance, ensuring nobody is in harm’s way when the bridge is moving. Still, there have been accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People will run on the bridge while it’s moving, and I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s just the terrestrial side of his worries. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll get a call and tug and barge is coming in with 20 tons of gravel, and a fat tide and wind behind them, and you have to open the bridge because it’s very hard for them to stop,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boats can schedule openings ahead of time or call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat captain makes an appointment at least two hours ahead of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams is relaxed and friendly in his downtime at work, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. When opening the bridge, the first thing he does is open all the blinds in the control tower, so he has full visibility. He stops speaking to anyone else around so that he can concentrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He activates an alarm bell as he makes an announcement over a loudspeaker, telling the public to stand clear. Then he drops the gates that block the road and sidewalk leading to the bridge. He double and triple checks the security cameras and walks out on a little catwalk adjacent to the tower to verify that nobody is on the bridge. Then he initiates the opening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Metal locks underneath the bridge disconnect, an electric motor deep in the bowels below the bridge begins to whir, a massive counterweight sinks into a pit and the bridge begins to rise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A flock of pigeons flies near the Park Street Bridge over the Oakland Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For second-generation bridge tender Damon Wallace, it’s a special moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re these giant machines, and you don’t realize it until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button, and then your world starts to tilt sideways,” Wallace, whose father and uncle worked as bridge tenders, said as he gazed up at the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a minute, you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happen right in front of you. It’s one of my favorite things,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the bridge reaches its apex, Williams repeats the process in reverse until the bridge is back together, and the traffic on the bridge resumes again.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The chaotic past of Alameda’s bridges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland separating it from Oakland, and bridge tenders have been part of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The problem started in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Oakland’s right there, we sure would like to get over there,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Alameda wasn’t yet an island, but connected to Oakland by a marshy stretch of land at its eastern end. Years later, in 1902, the Army Corps of Engineers would finish work dredging that channel, flooding the area connecting Oakland’s inner harbor with San Leandro Bay, making Alameda an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, even before that, crossing the marshy stretch of land connecting it to Oakland wasn’t easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first bridge to connect Alameda to Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get-go, it had its fair share of tragedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. Evanosky said it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident in which 13 people were killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt three more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing, according to Bernard C. Winn, the author of \u003cem>California Drawbridges\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials made the decision to dismantle the bridge in 1928, after the construction of the Webster Street Tube, an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda, made it obsolete. This is the pattern most of Alameda’s bridges have followed. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt at least once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070403\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070403\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator with the Alameda County Public Works Agency, sits at the controls used to raise and lower the drawbridge over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 13, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. Evanosky said early Alameda residents used to “ride the bridges,” clinging on as the bridges swung open and taking them for a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People even did this on the current version of the Park Street Bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s pretty dangerous. So they put a stop to that,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the current version of the Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda, Edith Bird, and a man from Oakland, Edward M. Drotloff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newspaper clippings from the time describe it as a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from Oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What it takes\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the High Street Bridge control tower, just a half-mile down up the estuary from the Park Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti strummed his ukulele in a moment of downtime during his shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Part of the job is to stare out the window and the ukulele accompanies it pretty good,” Cerletti said. “You have to have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator, looks out from the bridge’s operator tower on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The Miller-Sweeney Bridge is visible in the distance. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He said other bridge tenders paint watercolors or fix small electronics between bridge openings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cerletti has been a bridge tender since 2014, and said the stability of working for Alameda County has been great, he said. But the job can get a little lonely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You have to be able to be comfortable with yourself sitting up here too, because you can get go a little stir crazy being alone all the time,” Cerletti said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Generations of bridge tenders\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The work of being a bridge tender has seeped into Damon Wallace’s bones. Wallace fondly remembers moments from his youth, like when he greeted his father at the door in the morning after a graveyard shift, noticing the smell of oil, grease and work his father would bring home with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I started working here and I was like, ‘oh, that’s that smell,’ I get it now,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070400\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steel beams and the roadway deck are seen as the Park Street Bridge lifts over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The double-leaf bascule bridge spans 372 feet and is raised to about 70 degrees for most openings. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even the sound of rubber car tires driving on the bridges’ metal road deck, a sort of ever-present drone around the bridges, has become soothing for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Over the years, I’ve gotten to actually look and put hands on these things and understand what they are for and why they’re here. My childhood became my adulthood, and my world got bigger somehow,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said he’s started to bring his children to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ It’s honest work, and it’s kind of a special thing, this sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job,” Wallace said. “There’s not a lot of it left, and I’m proud to be part of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Crossing bridges can be essential to getting around the Bay Area. No matter what side of the water you live on, odds are, you’re probably going to use a bridge sooner than later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for the people who live, work or just hang out in the City of Alameda, crossing a bridge is almost non-negotiable. The island is connected to the rest of the Bay by six drawbridges, as well as two underwater tunnels, that span the Oakland Estuary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When those bridges open to let a boat pass, everybody has to wait. One day, Sarah Reid was in her car, watching the Park Street bridge open, when she noticed a little room attached to one of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember looking up at those little rooms wondering, does someone just sit up there all day? And what is that like, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She also wants to hear some stories …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad da y? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out – yeah! There’s a bridge tender sitting in that little room 24/7. And they’ve seen a lot! KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman has the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Cars on Bridge Noise\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Car tires hum against the steel deck of the Park Street Bridge. This hypnotic drone is the bridge’s soundtrack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up on these bridges. Um, the sound of the cars going overhead is, is soothing to me. It’s like a, it’s a comfort thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Damon Wallace, he’s a bridge utility worker for Alameda County’s Public Works Agency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been doing that for about two years, and prior to that I was a bridge tender. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bridge tenders are the people that operate Alameda’s drawbridges. It runs in his family, his father and his uncle both held the job when he was a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad 25 years. Uh, my uncle, uh, a little bit less than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the machinery room underneath the Park Street Bridge…its a large concrete bunker full of tools and the giant electrical motor that opens and closes the bridge\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a little Home Depot in here, just for the bridge, they’ve got everything they need to keep the bridge running which is essential because The Park Street Bridge is the busiest of Alameda’s bridges. Around 40,000 vehicles travel across its four lanes on an average weekday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up on the deck of the bridge, which is about the length of a football field we can see Berkeley, downtown Oakland, and ships at the Port of Oakland. We walk up to the bridge tower. It’s fixed on the Alameda side of the bridge, and almost looks like a little miniature clock tower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Knock, knock. Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Come on up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How you doing, John? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We head up a spiral staircase to the top floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Park Street Bridge, uh, Alameda County Public Works Agency. How you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Williams is the bridge tender on duty right now. He’s got a big white beard and his orange public works shirt tucked into his work pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s the best job in the world, you know, I mean, I, it’s really an excellent job \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The top floor is just one room with windows all around, giving the operator a 360 degree view of the bridge and the Oakland estuary. One end is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. There are a lot of big red buttons there, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">right? There are. And you don’t just randomly push them either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, that’s too bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette, there’s a french press and an avocado sitting on the counter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen a lot of wildlife out here over, over the years. You know, way l one time, lot of otters now and then, um, a lot of seabirds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some great sunsets too. John says he found the job on Craigslist. Besides the perks, he says this job has some big responsibilities. Public safety is their number one concern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A normal opening of the bridge splits the road deck in half, tons of concrete and steel lift into the sky at a 70 degree angle, about 143 feet in the air. The process requires constant vigilance and double, triple checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cause people will run on the bridge while it’s moving. They’ll go underneath the barriers. I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s just keeping the PEOPLE safe. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You get a call and tug and barge is coming in with like, you know whatever, 20 tons of gravel, you know, with a, a fat tide behind them pushing ’em in, in wind, and you have to open the bridge. You can’t not open the bridge. It’s very hard for ’em to stop. Really hard for ’em to stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All but two of Alameda’s drawbridges are staffed around the clock because ships, including the nearby Coast Guard base, need to be able to travel up and down the estuary at all hours. On a busy day, the Park Street bridge might open and close 14 different times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could be in a crowd of a thousand people and if somebody on the other side of that crowd said Park Street Bridge, I would hear them. Because I’m trained to hear it, you know, the radio call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boats can schedule openings ahead of time, or just call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat makes an appointment\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John comes off pretty relaxed and friendly, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there isn’t a ship passing, this is an operational check, that the tenders do from time to time, to make sure everything is working as it should. John starts by opening all the blinds in the little tower room. He wants full visibility. And he stops talking to me. He says he needs to concentrate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">St and clear for bridge opening. Please stand clear for Park Street Bridge opening\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First he drops the gates and barriers to keep cars and pedestrians off the bridge, and makes sure all the traffic is stopped. Then he walks out on a little catwalk extending out from the tower, and double checks that nobody is in harms way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just then, recordings of birds play underneath the bridge, in an attempt to shoo nesting pigeons away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it gets pretty quiet. The hum of traffic stops, and the bridge begins to rise. You can hear the electrical motors whirring. For Damon, the second generation bridge worker, it’s a special moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s these giant machines, and you don’t realize they’re machines until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button and the your world starts to tilt sideways.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says there’s something magical about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a minute you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happened right in front of you. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things, you know? It always has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the bridge sticking straight up in the air, John checks again before letting it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, you guys. All right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, John guides the bridge slowly back down, metal locks click back together underneath the road deck, and the traffic starts again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear the bridge tenders are essential. But in this world of technological innovation, especially artificial intelligence, I wonder, how much longer will these jobs be around? I put that question to John Medlock, he’s the Deputy Director of Maintenance Operation for Alameda County, PublicWorks Agency.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Medlock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At some point in time, you know, maybe, maybe everything needs to be replaced. We’ll probably find new technology or, or new way of spanning the, uh, the estuary. But right now that’s what we have and love it or hate it. If that’s what we have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks the bridge tenders, will be around for the foreseeable future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – some history of these drawbridges. And the unique ways bridge tenders pass the time. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nowadays Alameda’s bridges are a reliable way to get on and off the island. But it wasn’t always that way. Here’s Azul again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland … separating it from Oakland. And bridge tenders have been part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem started in, in the, in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Boy Oakland’s right over there. We’d like to get over there.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s historian Dennis Evanosky. The first bridge to connect Alameda to what’s now Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get go, it had its fair share of tragedies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge, that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. But Evanosky says it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They misunderstood a signal and, and the, the whole train dumped into the estuary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirteen people were killed. The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt 3 more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing. The bridge was dismantled for the last time, shortly after the construction of the Webster Street Tube in 1928., the tube is an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s kind of the story of all of Alameda’s bridges. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt, at least once.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So each of the bridges has two lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the people, uh, who, who were really close by when they heard the boat toot for permission, they’d all run down there and they’d ride the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Climbing on the bridge as it swung open and taking it for a ride. People even did this on the current version of the park street bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s pretty dangerous. So they, they, they put a stop to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the latest Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda and a man from Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miss Edith Bird of Alameda became Mrs. Edward M. Drotloff of Oakland yesterday afternoon. The ceremony that united them as they stood at the site of the newly-completed Park Street Bridge symbolized the uniting of the two cities by the huge structure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge. The same one that stands today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are 14 bridge tenders that work the Alameda bridges, and they switch between all 6 of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I go to visit the High Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti is the bridge tender on duty. He’s wearing orange alameda county coveralls, and a psychedelic trucker hat for a disc golf supply company. This bridge sees less traffic, so has a calmer vibe.. Across the water I can see houseboats bobbing up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a lot going on out there. It’s peaceful. The birds. Oh man. When you get these huge flocks that come flying in here and settle into the estuary, it’s like a, like a painting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vincent has been a bridge tender for more than ten years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the first regular thing that I got into that gave me a stability working for the county, which has been awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s seen some things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like a guy with a couch once came down with a, a, you know, like the small little trolling motor on the back? I think he was floating on, on a piece of a dock with a couch on it. A little motor. He’s fishing. He was having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that in order to be a bridge tender, you have to be ok with spending a lot of time by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some guys paint, paint, little, uh, pictures, you know, watercolors of the boats and stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says one bridge tender fixes electronics to pass the time. Vincent, likes to bring his Ukelele. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I just, uh, yeah. Sit here and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>(Ukelele Music)\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when you’re here on like, you know, Christmas Day and New Year’s Eve and Thanksgiving, I worked all those holidays this year. I dunno, you gotta have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you ever feel lonely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yeah, it’s kind of hard to have a relationship if you’re doing graveyards, you know, seven nights of the month and you’re on swing shift. So you take off at two o’clock and get home at 11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being a bridge tender can be tough, but its also rewarding. Here’s Damon, the bridge tender we heard from in the beginning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>It’s honest work. It’s, uh, and it’s kind of a special thing, these sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job. It, it does. There’s not a lot of it left, and, uh, I’m proud to be part of it. I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says he’s started to bring his kids to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about Alameda, including how it isn’t actually a natural island – hit up our show notes where we’ve linked some other Bay Curious episodes you might enjoy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is gearing up for KQED Fest – an all-day open house at KQED’s headquarters in San Francisco. It’s a block party with educational activities, live music, food, and more! I’ll be doing a fireside chat about how we make Bay Curious at 11:15 a.m. Tickets are free, but you do need to register. You can do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Big thanks to all our members out there who help keep Bay Curious going. If you aren’t a member yet – please consider joining at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "why-its-taken-concord-40-years-to-turn-a-former-bomb-site-into-a-neighborhood",
"title": "Why It’s Taken Concord 40 Years to Turn a Former Bomb Site into a Neighborhood",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard loves living in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/east-bay\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>. She said it’s safe, walkable and she bikes everywhere. The only downside? She lives right next to a 12-lane freeway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[I’m] super thankful to have a house, but… noise pollution is a little much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Howard was daydreaming about living near open space and started looking around online for places that fit the bill. Is it even possible to buy a house in the East Bay next to undeveloped land?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there, in Concord, behind a local high school, was a swath of green rolling hills big enough to accommodate a new airport. When she zoomed in, she saw puzzling features, grass mounds in a grid pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is this?” she wondered to herself. “Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those grassy mounds in a grid pattern are huge concrete bunkers, wider than a train car, used by the Navy for more than 60 years to store weapons, bombs and ammunition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What happened at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dozens of these ammunition bunkers, grass-covered trapezoids poking up from the landscape, are what’s known as “bunker city,” just one part of a 5,000-acre inland section of a military base called the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The storage units are empty now, but they once stored the weapons of war that the Navy needed to fight wars from the 1940s all the way through the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/persian-gulf-war\">1991 Gulf War\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Railroads connected this inland base to the bay where artillery was loaded onto warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081249\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081249\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason looks through her back fence at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there,” said Kathy Gleason, who moved next to the Naval base back in 1974. “They were moving munitions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even though Kathy’s backyard is separated from bunker city by just two fences, you can’t tell she lives next to a military site. By design, the mounds blend into the lush green landscape to camouflage them from enemies coming by air or by foot. Besides the mounds, there aren’t many buildings. And it has always been relatively quiet here, with vistas of sheep and cattle grazing. That’s what drew her here in the first place, 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We used to see tule elk roaming around,” Gleason said. “Now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2005, everything changed. The Concord Naval Weapons Station closed, as part of a federal initiative — the Base Realignment and Closure process (BRAC) — to cut military costs and adapt to new systems of warfare. Through BRAC, hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">dozens in the Bay Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment. The 5,200 acres behind Gleason’s house would change hands. She feared a big developer would swoop in to turn it into a metropolis, and before that, a big, noisy construction zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all kind of panicked,” Gleason said. “We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gleason became a key organizer in the Concord Naval Weapons Station Neighborhood Alliance, which tabled at farmers markets, knocked on doors, and showed up at city planning meetings advocating to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. We were so angry,” Gleason said about their organizing efforts back in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We told them, we are not going away. We want this preserved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Reenvisioning ‘Bunker City’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Twenty years later, all the peace and quiet that the Concord Neighborhood Alliance wanted is still there. Not a single permanent structure has been built on the former weapons base yet. What’s the holdup?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, the city went through a seven-year process of engaging residents to come up with a master vision for the site. It culminated in \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/152/The-Area-Plan\">the 2012 area plan\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081257\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081257\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Josh Roden, a developer at Brookfield Residential working with the city of Concord to redevelop the Concord Naval Weapons Station, stands on a hillside overlooking the former naval base in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All the while, there was a lot of cleanup and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">arsenic and lead\u003c/a> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/labor-dispute-stalls-redevelopment-of-concord-naval-weapons-station/2210946/\">jumped ship,\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/deal-for-planned-development-at-concord-naval-weapons-station-collapses/\">one was booted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the slow and deliberate pace the Navy and city have been on is not necessarily a bad thing, the current master developer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community,” said Josh Roden, president of Brookfield Northern California, which is \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/\">managing the redevelopment of the site\u003c/a>. “It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden’s team is now tasked with implementing the specifics of the 2012 general plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like building a small city,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Concord residents expect 12,000 residential units, which is roughly equivalent to the nearby town of Pleasant Hill, home to 34,000 people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Six million square feet are earmarked for retail, office and institutional space, and businesses such as hotels and restaurants, which will be most dense near the North Concord Bart Station. That’s more space than the footprint of Disneyland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be a sports complex and city park, stretching over 175 acres, and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school, along with elementary and middle schools. Fire and police stations will be built, as well as a food bank, and a pedestrian path along Mount Diablo Creek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plans are grand and exciting, but Concord residents will have to wait a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden said construction won’t break ground until 2030, and it will probably be “a 40-year build out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first phase includes housing near the North Concord BART station. Residents can expect more electric vehicle infrastructure, denser housing, and retail space blended with other leisure activities. How quickly it all moves along depends on the health of the economy, Roden said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081248\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason’s home abuts the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Open space advocates like Kathy Gleason have already had a notable win. Half of the inland naval base — roughly 2,500 acres, has already been handed over to East Bay Regional Parks. \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/thurgood-marshall-regional-park-home-port-chicago-50\">Thurgood Marshall Regional Park\u003c/a> is not yet open to the public, but when it does, visitors will be able to see the ammunition bunkers during historic tours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here,” said Gleason, who also said she now understands that housing is a critical need in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard of Walnut Creek said she’s glad the Concord housing development will be near open space. She just hopes she’s alive when it all comes to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of scary how long it takes,” she said. But sometimes, “good things take time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We recently got a question from a woman named Suzanne Howard. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She bought a house with her husband in Walnut Creek two years ago and she loves the place. How it feels safe and walkable to lots of shops. They bike everywhere. But one thing gives Suzanne a little buyer’s remorse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s right next to the 12 lane freeway. It’s super noisy, super thankful to have a house, but like quality of life noise pollution is a little much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One day, Suzanne was feeling curious, and she started studying online maps, looking for open space in the East Bay. Where could more housing be built near her that might offer a little more peace and quiet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I found as I zoomed out, I saw east of Concord High School green open fields, gorgeous greenery hillside, some streets. And then little mounds, little grass mounds which, all in a grid pattern. What is this thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Five thousand acres of open space with seemingly nothing going on. It wasn’t a park or anything. Just a big open area and those mounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. On today’s episode, we asked KQED’s Pauline Bartolone to scout out that area behind Concord High School. What are those grassy mounds in a grid pattern? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll give you a hint, it’s not a cemetery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok. Is it open to the public? Can I go on a walk there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, right now, no. In a few years, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about Suzanne’s question, could housing be built there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, actually that’s in the works, we’ll get to more on that in a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, so tell me what you saw when you went out there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I found someone who lives right near Concord High School, and those 5,000 acres of rolling hills are right behind her house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Kathy Gleason. We’re in Concord in my backyard, and looking at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station. That property our listener Suzanne saw on the map, belongs to the Navy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During World War 2, the navy stored tons of explosives here in huge concrete bunkers camouflaged with earth to look like grassy hills. Those are the mounds Suzanne saw on the map. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. You can see the bunkers back there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over a hundred concrete weapons storage units here supplied bullets, missiles, bombs, anything the military needed for combat all the way up to the first Gulf War. Railroads connected this inland base to the Bay where artillery was loaded onto warships. When Kathy moved here in 1974, it was active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there. So they were moving munitions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy says she loves living next to a weapons base… because.. it’s quiet. Those ammo bunker mounds…. they’re empty now… and they blend into the lush green landscape… And there aren’t many other buildings there. She says it’s always been pretty calm, part of what drew her here in the first place 50 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Who wouldn’t like this in their backyard? You can hear that plane, but other than that it’s pretty quiet. When we first moved in, there were a lot of sheep out there. There’s still a lot of cattle out there grazing. So we used to see tule elk roaming around, now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then Concord residents got news that could change everything. The weapons station would close in 2005. This huge swath of open land, roughly the size of San Francisco International airport, was going to change hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all kind of panicked. All the neighbors along here kind of panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They worried a developer would swoop in and build a metropolis, a big noisy construction project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop? And the noise and everything that would go with developing a project this big, this is huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station closure was part of a federal project to cut military costs. It was called BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure process. Hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide. Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were so angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Locally, Kathy quickly became a key organizer among neighbors pushing to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We quickly got a group together, went down the City Hall. Surprised the hell out of the city council members because we were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For years, they tabled at farmers markets and knocked on people’s doors to educate Concord residents about the potential for development. And of course, they were squeaky wheels at city council meetings and planning commission hearings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We told them, we are not going away, you know, listen to us, we’re not going away, we want this preserved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they got their wish, in part. Half of the area behind Kathy’s house has been handed over to east bay regional parks. The old ammo bunkers there will become part of historic tours. And when it opens, locals can hike, camp or have a picnic next to protected wildlife areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here. We hope that it works. We slowed down after we got the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up, we’ll learn how the other half of the land will be used. That’s after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> KQED’s Pauline Bartolone takes us back to the Concord mounds, to find out what’s planned here. But this time, from a different vantage point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy and her neighbors were up in arms about plans to build on the military site next to their homes. That was two decades ago, and all that peace and quiet? It’s still there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are looking out over the valley or floor area of old bunker city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh Roden is a private developer, and he took me onto the old Concord Naval Weapons station. From our vantage point you can see the former weapons storage clearly… dozens of massive trapezoids poking up from the soil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re mostly concrete bunkers with earth over them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh heads up Brookfield Residential in Northern California, which is working with the city of Concord to redevelop the navy base based on a roadmap Concord residents like Kathy helped create. When it’s done, the site will have housing, businesses, schools and parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community, getting a whole bunch of feedback. It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage through that, because it’s a lot of opinions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But so far, it’s been a lot of discussion, 20 years worth. And not a single permanent structure has been built here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the most important parts is the first, being able to flush a toilet and turn a light on. So we really do have to go bring power. We have to bring potable water, we have to bring storm drains.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what’s the hold up? Well, there’s been a lot of clean up and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arsenic and lead\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One jumped ship and one was booted. And before all that, Concord spent seven years coming up with a master plan with residents. A vision for the site.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they ended up coming up with what we think is a very reasonable and good area plan, but it did take some time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their plans are grand… just down the hill from where Josh and I are standing, will be some of the 12,000 residential homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of units, the size of it is similar to Pleasant Hill. So for context the population that it would generate. It’s similar to Pleasant Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’d be housing for something like 34-thousand people. Also in the plan are retail and office space, most dense near the North Concord Bart Station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hotels and maybe more restaurants and a place people go leisure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the outline for a sports park – stretching over 175 acres – and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are also coordinating some of the elementary school, middle school potentially to be in that vicinity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fire stations, police stations. A food bank and a pedestrian path along Mt Diablo creek, All the amenities of a town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s like building a small city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That may sound exciting but it will all take a looong time. Like decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Currently, it’s planned out for probably a 40 year build out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They won’t even break ground until 2031, and there’s still some bureaucratic hurdles. Ultimately, Josh says how quickly it gets built depends on the health of the economy, Housing is what pays off for the developer, so the the first to go up will be homes close to the North Concord BART station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite her early reservations about building on the site, Kathy has had a bit of a change of heart about new housing. She says the Bay Area needs it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were not as panicked as we were. I think I do understand. Let’s do it. Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a long time. Geez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I took all this back to Suzanne Howard, our question asker. She likes that the Concord development will have open space near it, not a 12 lane highway like the one next to her house. As far as taking more than half a century to finish the new housing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s kind of scary how long it takes. But hopefully, you know, assuming positive intent and the cleanup hopefully is being very thorough and good things take time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She just hopes she’s alive to see it come to fruition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to our question asker this week, Suzanne. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that we send a little thank you gift to each question asker? Just one more reason to take a few minutes and send your burning question our way! Ask at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is our last Monday episode during our experimental period of dropping two episodes a week. We’ve learned so much — and had a lot of fun answering twice as many of your questions these past few months. We always planned this to be a limited-term trial — so we’re back to our once a week publishing schedule next week. If you have thoughts or feedback for us as we take stock and move forward, email us at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by me, Olivia Allen Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and you! Yes you are a producer on this show if you are a member of KQED. Your financial support makes everything possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep gratitude to all the KQED members out there, and if you aren’t one yet, join us! Give at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard loves living in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/east-bay\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>. She said it’s safe, walkable and she bikes everywhere. The only downside? She lives right next to a 12-lane freeway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[I’m] super thankful to have a house, but… noise pollution is a little much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Howard was daydreaming about living near open space and started looking around online for places that fit the bill. Is it even possible to buy a house in the East Bay next to undeveloped land?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there, in Concord, behind a local high school, was a swath of green rolling hills big enough to accommodate a new airport. When she zoomed in, she saw puzzling features, grass mounds in a grid pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is this?” she wondered to herself. “Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those grassy mounds in a grid pattern are huge concrete bunkers, wider than a train car, used by the Navy for more than 60 years to store weapons, bombs and ammunition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What happened at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dozens of these ammunition bunkers, grass-covered trapezoids poking up from the landscape, are what’s known as “bunker city,” just one part of a 5,000-acre inland section of a military base called the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The storage units are empty now, but they once stored the weapons of war that the Navy needed to fight wars from the 1940s all the way through the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/persian-gulf-war\">1991 Gulf War\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Railroads connected this inland base to the bay where artillery was loaded onto warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081249\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081249\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason looks through her back fence at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there,” said Kathy Gleason, who moved next to the Naval base back in 1974. “They were moving munitions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even though Kathy’s backyard is separated from bunker city by just two fences, you can’t tell she lives next to a military site. By design, the mounds blend into the lush green landscape to camouflage them from enemies coming by air or by foot. Besides the mounds, there aren’t many buildings. And it has always been relatively quiet here, with vistas of sheep and cattle grazing. That’s what drew her here in the first place, 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We used to see tule elk roaming around,” Gleason said. “Now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2005, everything changed. The Concord Naval Weapons Station closed, as part of a federal initiative — the Base Realignment and Closure process (BRAC) — to cut military costs and adapt to new systems of warfare. Through BRAC, hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">dozens in the Bay Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment. The 5,200 acres behind Gleason’s house would change hands. She feared a big developer would swoop in to turn it into a metropolis, and before that, a big, noisy construction zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all kind of panicked,” Gleason said. “We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gleason became a key organizer in the Concord Naval Weapons Station Neighborhood Alliance, which tabled at farmers markets, knocked on doors, and showed up at city planning meetings advocating to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. We were so angry,” Gleason said about their organizing efforts back in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We told them, we are not going away. We want this preserved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Reenvisioning ‘Bunker City’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Twenty years later, all the peace and quiet that the Concord Neighborhood Alliance wanted is still there. Not a single permanent structure has been built on the former weapons base yet. What’s the holdup?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, the city went through a seven-year process of engaging residents to come up with a master vision for the site. It culminated in \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/152/The-Area-Plan\">the 2012 area plan\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081257\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081257\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Josh Roden, a developer at Brookfield Residential working with the city of Concord to redevelop the Concord Naval Weapons Station, stands on a hillside overlooking the former naval base in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All the while, there was a lot of cleanup and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">arsenic and lead\u003c/a> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/labor-dispute-stalls-redevelopment-of-concord-naval-weapons-station/2210946/\">jumped ship,\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/deal-for-planned-development-at-concord-naval-weapons-station-collapses/\">one was booted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the slow and deliberate pace the Navy and city have been on is not necessarily a bad thing, the current master developer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community,” said Josh Roden, president of Brookfield Northern California, which is \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/\">managing the redevelopment of the site\u003c/a>. “It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden’s team is now tasked with implementing the specifics of the 2012 general plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like building a small city,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Concord residents expect 12,000 residential units, which is roughly equivalent to the nearby town of Pleasant Hill, home to 34,000 people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Six million square feet are earmarked for retail, office and institutional space, and businesses such as hotels and restaurants, which will be most dense near the North Concord Bart Station. That’s more space than the footprint of Disneyland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be a sports complex and city park, stretching over 175 acres, and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school, along with elementary and middle schools. Fire and police stations will be built, as well as a food bank, and a pedestrian path along Mount Diablo Creek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plans are grand and exciting, but Concord residents will have to wait a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden said construction won’t break ground until 2030, and it will probably be “a 40-year build out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first phase includes housing near the North Concord BART station. Residents can expect more electric vehicle infrastructure, denser housing, and retail space blended with other leisure activities. How quickly it all moves along depends on the health of the economy, Roden said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081248\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason’s home abuts the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Open space advocates like Kathy Gleason have already had a notable win. Half of the inland naval base — roughly 2,500 acres, has already been handed over to East Bay Regional Parks. \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/thurgood-marshall-regional-park-home-port-chicago-50\">Thurgood Marshall Regional Park\u003c/a> is not yet open to the public, but when it does, visitors will be able to see the ammunition bunkers during historic tours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here,” said Gleason, who also said she now understands that housing is a critical need in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard of Walnut Creek said she’s glad the Concord housing development will be near open space. She just hopes she’s alive when it all comes to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of scary how long it takes,” she said. But sometimes, “good things take time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We recently got a question from a woman named Suzanne Howard. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She bought a house with her husband in Walnut Creek two years ago and she loves the place. How it feels safe and walkable to lots of shops. They bike everywhere. But one thing gives Suzanne a little buyer’s remorse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s right next to the 12 lane freeway. It’s super noisy, super thankful to have a house, but like quality of life noise pollution is a little much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One day, Suzanne was feeling curious, and she started studying online maps, looking for open space in the East Bay. Where could more housing be built near her that might offer a little more peace and quiet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I found as I zoomed out, I saw east of Concord High School green open fields, gorgeous greenery hillside, some streets. And then little mounds, little grass mounds which, all in a grid pattern. What is this thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Five thousand acres of open space with seemingly nothing going on. It wasn’t a park or anything. Just a big open area and those mounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. On today’s episode, we asked KQED’s Pauline Bartolone to scout out that area behind Concord High School. What are those grassy mounds in a grid pattern? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll give you a hint, it’s not a cemetery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok. Is it open to the public? Can I go on a walk there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, right now, no. In a few years, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about Suzanne’s question, could housing be built there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, actually that’s in the works, we’ll get to more on that in a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, so tell me what you saw when you went out there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I found someone who lives right near Concord High School, and those 5,000 acres of rolling hills are right behind her house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Kathy Gleason. We’re in Concord in my backyard, and looking at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station. That property our listener Suzanne saw on the map, belongs to the Navy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During World War 2, the navy stored tons of explosives here in huge concrete bunkers camouflaged with earth to look like grassy hills. Those are the mounds Suzanne saw on the map. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. You can see the bunkers back there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over a hundred concrete weapons storage units here supplied bullets, missiles, bombs, anything the military needed for combat all the way up to the first Gulf War. Railroads connected this inland base to the Bay where artillery was loaded onto warships. When Kathy moved here in 1974, it was active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there. So they were moving munitions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy says she loves living next to a weapons base… because.. it’s quiet. Those ammo bunker mounds…. they’re empty now… and they blend into the lush green landscape… And there aren’t many other buildings there. She says it’s always been pretty calm, part of what drew her here in the first place 50 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Who wouldn’t like this in their backyard? You can hear that plane, but other than that it’s pretty quiet. When we first moved in, there were a lot of sheep out there. There’s still a lot of cattle out there grazing. So we used to see tule elk roaming around, now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then Concord residents got news that could change everything. The weapons station would close in 2005. This huge swath of open land, roughly the size of San Francisco International airport, was going to change hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all kind of panicked. All the neighbors along here kind of panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They worried a developer would swoop in and build a metropolis, a big noisy construction project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop? And the noise and everything that would go with developing a project this big, this is huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station closure was part of a federal project to cut military costs. It was called BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure process. Hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide. Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were so angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Locally, Kathy quickly became a key organizer among neighbors pushing to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We quickly got a group together, went down the City Hall. Surprised the hell out of the city council members because we were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For years, they tabled at farmers markets and knocked on people’s doors to educate Concord residents about the potential for development. And of course, they were squeaky wheels at city council meetings and planning commission hearings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We told them, we are not going away, you know, listen to us, we’re not going away, we want this preserved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they got their wish, in part. Half of the area behind Kathy’s house has been handed over to east bay regional parks. The old ammo bunkers there will become part of historic tours. And when it opens, locals can hike, camp or have a picnic next to protected wildlife areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here. We hope that it works. We slowed down after we got the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up, we’ll learn how the other half of the land will be used. That’s after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> KQED’s Pauline Bartolone takes us back to the Concord mounds, to find out what’s planned here. But this time, from a different vantage point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy and her neighbors were up in arms about plans to build on the military site next to their homes. That was two decades ago, and all that peace and quiet? It’s still there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are looking out over the valley or floor area of old bunker city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh Roden is a private developer, and he took me onto the old Concord Naval Weapons station. From our vantage point you can see the former weapons storage clearly… dozens of massive trapezoids poking up from the soil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re mostly concrete bunkers with earth over them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh heads up Brookfield Residential in Northern California, which is working with the city of Concord to redevelop the navy base based on a roadmap Concord residents like Kathy helped create. When it’s done, the site will have housing, businesses, schools and parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community, getting a whole bunch of feedback. It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage through that, because it’s a lot of opinions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But so far, it’s been a lot of discussion, 20 years worth. And not a single permanent structure has been built here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the most important parts is the first, being able to flush a toilet and turn a light on. So we really do have to go bring power. We have to bring potable water, we have to bring storm drains.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what’s the hold up? Well, there’s been a lot of clean up and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arsenic and lead\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One jumped ship and one was booted. And before all that, Concord spent seven years coming up with a master plan with residents. A vision for the site.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they ended up coming up with what we think is a very reasonable and good area plan, but it did take some time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their plans are grand… just down the hill from where Josh and I are standing, will be some of the 12,000 residential homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of units, the size of it is similar to Pleasant Hill. So for context the population that it would generate. It’s similar to Pleasant Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’d be housing for something like 34-thousand people. Also in the plan are retail and office space, most dense near the North Concord Bart Station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hotels and maybe more restaurants and a place people go leisure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the outline for a sports park – stretching over 175 acres – and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are also coordinating some of the elementary school, middle school potentially to be in that vicinity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fire stations, police stations. A food bank and a pedestrian path along Mt Diablo creek, All the amenities of a town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s like building a small city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That may sound exciting but it will all take a looong time. Like decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Currently, it’s planned out for probably a 40 year build out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They won’t even break ground until 2031, and there’s still some bureaucratic hurdles. Ultimately, Josh says how quickly it gets built depends on the health of the economy, Housing is what pays off for the developer, so the the first to go up will be homes close to the North Concord BART station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite her early reservations about building on the site, Kathy has had a bit of a change of heart about new housing. She says the Bay Area needs it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were not as panicked as we were. I think I do understand. Let’s do it. Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a long time. Geez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I took all this back to Suzanne Howard, our question asker. She likes that the Concord development will have open space near it, not a 12 lane highway like the one next to her house. As far as taking more than half a century to finish the new housing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s kind of scary how long it takes. But hopefully, you know, assuming positive intent and the cleanup hopefully is being very thorough and good things take time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She just hopes she’s alive to see it come to fruition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to our question asker this week, Suzanne. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that we send a little thank you gift to each question asker? Just one more reason to take a few minutes and send your burning question our way! Ask at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is our last Monday episode during our experimental period of dropping two episodes a week. We’ve learned so much — and had a lot of fun answering twice as many of your questions these past few months. We always planned this to be a limited-term trial — so we’re back to our once a week publishing schedule next week. If you have thoughts or feedback for us as we take stock and move forward, email us at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by me, Olivia Allen Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and you! Yes you are a producer on this show if you are a member of KQED. Your financial support makes everything possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep gratitude to all the KQED members out there, and if you aren’t one yet, join us! Give at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "its-the-most-beautiful-taco-bell-in-the-world-heres-why-it-could-never-be-built-today",
"title": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today",
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"headTitle": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven south from\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> on California Highway 1 towards Pacifica, you know that moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You round a curve, and there it is all of a sudden: the glorious Pacific Ocean. Five minutes ago, you could have been on any highway in America. But now, it’s clear. You’re in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re seeing the ocean to your right, and all these little hamlets located in these small, little valleys on your left,” said Henry Lie, who was born and raised in Pacifica. “And that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods [tucked] into smaller valleys.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon enough, you’ll see Pacifica State Beach stretching out before you. Locals call it Linda Mar beach, but back in the day, it was San Pedro Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s very picturesque, and it just so happens, at the very center is a Taco Bell,” Lie said. “But it’s not a standard Taco Bell. It’s different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079611\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079611\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People enter the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sitting in a prime location nearly touching the sand, this Taco Bell is a little more stately than the average fast-food restaurant. It’s got dark brown wood siding, a deck looking out over the Pacific Ocean and a lot of history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie has always wondered how this Taco Bell ended up with such an incredible spot on the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A restaurant on the beach\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The town we now know as Pacifica was incorporated in 1957, but back in the day, it used to be a collection of distinct coastal communities — places like Sharp Park, Rockaway Beach, and Vallemar. After World War II, the new city served as a bedroom community for San Francisco, home to families and a slower pace of life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local historian Deb Wong said that baby boomers in Pacifica were craving something more than what the sleepy town had to offer. So, in the 1960s, a real estate agent named Bud Wiechers offered up a possible solution: a beachside restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11983182 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Crowds-flee.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Linda Mar beach was a quiet, sandy strip. “Just a really nice beach with a few structures on it,” Wong said. To Pacifica locals, the Wander Inn was the mainstay — its motto says it all: “Wander Inn, Stagger Out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wiechers planned to turn a small lot he owned nearby on Linda Mar beach into an A&W franchise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not everyone was excited by the prospect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The A&W attracted a lot of attention,” Wong said. “And it gave people ideas about businesses that they could build on the beach.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made the Pacifica planning commission wary of the idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were uneasy about private property on the beach and too much building on the beach,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their reservations, the city did eventually grant Wiechers permission to build his restaurant, on the condition that he deed some land to the public to ensure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/744727110/?match=1&terms=A%26W\">opened\u003c/a> in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former A&W employee Nancy Cook Long said the building had a “rustic-looking kind of design.” The exterior was covered in wood siding. A local paper described the intention: “blend with its marine location.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the restaurant, though, \u003cem>different\u003c/em> aesthetic choices had been made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was totally 70s; it was orange and brown,” Pacifica local Kelly Rose said. As a teen, Rose worked at the A&W.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had a brown shag carpet, dark wood paneling; it had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood, and they had a very thick layer of varithane on them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1913px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1913\" height=\"1275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg 1913w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1913px) 100vw, 1913px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers walk out of Taco Bell Cantina with their orders in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rose remembered a long counter — typical of a fast food restaurant — and then two sets of doors. One leads to the parking lot, the other to the beach. The back patio was built on stilts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it,” Cook Long said. ”And that was absolutely unbelievable to a lot of us, like, are you kidding?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even back then — before Taco Bell and internet fame — the restaurant managed to achieve its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the A&W wouldn’t last forever. In 1985, it closed its doors. The reasons for the closure, as reported in a local newspaper at the time, included the owner-operator’s scheduling constraints and plans for the opening of Wendy’s restaurant nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s next for the primo locale?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, locals had lined up at the beachside A&W — but a new chapter was about to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The owner of the San Pedro Beach land on which the A&W Restaurant has stood for many years has bought out the lease and is completing negotiations with another firm which contemplates replacing it with a Taco Bell restaurant,” the \u003cem>Pacifica Tribune\u003c/em> said on July 31, 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12079104 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_019_qed.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That year, the restaurant transitioned to a Taco Bell. For locals who grew up with the A&W, the change was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was really sad about it,” Long said. “Because A&W [was] unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was an institution for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the past 40 years, the Taco Bell here has thrived. Dubbed by news outlets and influencers alike as “‘the world’s most beautiful Taco Bell,”’ it has attracted visitors from around the globe. Taco Bell even lists it on their \u003ca href=\"https://www.tacobell.com/stories/Coolesttacobells\">website\u003c/a> as the number one most beautiful Taco Bell you never knew existed. American surfer Kai Lenny said that every time he surfs at nearby Mavericks, he stops by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hl2M9BpEdg\">Taco Bell for a burrito.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then, in 2019, the Taco Bell became a Cantina, an establishment that can legally sell alcohol. The change has only helped make it more popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie, our question-asker, said it’s one of his go-to spots when friends visit the Bay Area. “I feel like it’s a Bay Area landmark that really only locals know,” Lie said. “It is fun because it’s an interesting quirk of our hometown, and it’s something that makes Pacifica unique.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, it’s the location that does the heavy lifting. You can get a spicy potato soft taco anywhere — but how often can you eat it while watching surfers take on the rolling waves of the Pacific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not very often. The reason? California’s Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Coastal Act and the Taco Bell\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Charles Lester is a coastal policy expert. And when he looks at the Taco Bell, he sees evidence of a very different time in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I see it, I go, oh, that must be from the ‘60s or the ‘70s, without knowing for sure,” Lester said. “It looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coasts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Informational signs at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Around the same time Pacifica locals were raising their concerns about private businesses on public beaches, similar battles were playing out up and down California’s coast. Reactions to the Sea Ranch development and a proposed nuclear plant at Bodega Head, both in Sonoma County, are just two examples.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Places like Malibu were already starting to see this cheek-to-jowl residential development along the beach,” Lester said. “People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway 1 the way they used to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Citizens took their concerns to local and state officials, but Sacramento was slow to respond. The growing unease spurred a grassroots movement that would come to impact California forever. In 1972 — the same year the A&W opened its doors — California voters passed Proposition 20. It established the California Coastal Commission, a body whose mandate is to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The A&W — and by extension the Taco Bell — snuck in before regulations went into effect.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A future hanging in balance\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Lester, the bigger question now is of the building’s future. When I met up with him at his home, he’d come prepared. His 40-inch television screen turned monitor showed an aerial view of Linda Mar beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to look at this 2023 photo because it shows you where the wave run-up was at the time,” Lester points to a line in the sand. “You can see that at some point, right before this photo was taken, the waves were coming up right to the toe of that structure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Families and individuals enjoy a day at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With just two meters of sea level rise, he said, the ocean could push right up against the restaurant regularly. Throw in a storm, and the waves could inundate it. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear — some extreme estimates say in\u003ca href=\"https://scripps.ucsd.edu/research/climate-change-resources/faq-sea-level-rise-and-california\"> 75 years, \u003c/a>but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In my mind, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically,” Lester said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Taco Bell might qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act, Lester said, potentially entitling it to some form of protection. If he could, though, he’d pick it up and move it inland. This form of managed retreat, he said, is our best option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are thinking, given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned, in a lot of places,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, the Pacifica Taco Bell exists as an anomaly. It was built before modern rules, giving it a prime spot on the sand and very little competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whatever you put there is going to be popular,” Wong said. “But the thing is, you can’t put anything else there, and Taco Bell isn’t giving it up, and they are famous now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>We are on Highway One, officially coming off 280 onto Highway One. And oh my gosh, there she is, the mighty Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape: \u003c/strong>And you’re seeing, like the ocean to your right, and all these little like hamlets on your left and and that whole that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods nooked into smaller valleys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck and I are following directions from question asker Henry Lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>We pass neighborhoods like Sharp Park and Rockaway Beach on our way to an iconic Pacifica landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape:\u003c/strong> I love this drive in…. I mean, right now, it’s like, sun soaked, which is actually rare. Usually, I feel like, as you come to Pacifica, you’re like stepping into the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> And so you get further south, and you come across this crest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>Wow! Okay, so we’re passing over where the pier juts out into the ocean, seeing some jagged rocks on the horizon as we make our way toward the beach. Which beach are we going to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> I think it’s technically called Pacifica State Beach, but everyone calls it Linda Mar. And then you notice this one big brown building…and all of a sudden you see that it’s a Taco Bell, on the beach!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This Taco Bell is legendary. Tiktokers can’t resist it, and Bay Area locals are no different. It’s a fast food restaurant like any other… but the views! The weathered wood exterior has an organic feel, blending in with the natural beauty around it. There’s a palm tree right next to the parking lot and the back porch of the restaurant is built on stilts right on the sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio: \u003c/strong>Henry wanted to know more about this Taco Bell. How did it end up on the beach like this? And what’s gonna happen to it in the future? It’s a story that goes beyond Pacifica and asks who are California beaches for? Who gets to use them and how.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though the Taco Bell parking lot is packed today, back in the 1960s and 70s Pacifica was pretty quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>I’d say it was mostly middle-class families who were just starting out post war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Nancy Cook Long grew up here back when it was not a place on most people’s radar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Everybody knew everybody. You played outside, kick the can and freeze tag, and you rode cardboard boxes down the sides of hills. …it was just a little hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beach at Linda Mar, known back in the day as San Pedro beach – was pretty bare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Certainly in high school, people would go hang out at the beach. But before that, it was just, I’m going to say, almost something we took for granted and I don’t think it had anywhere near the popularity for surfing that it does now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There were a few small buildings, but all in all, mostly a stretch of sand. Until that is, a man by the name of “Bud” Wikers got an idea to turn a small oceanside lot he owned into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>He knew that with the baby boomers out there who were demanding something more than what we had in Pacifica at the time, he thought it would be a great idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As local historian Deb Wong tells it, Bud got in touch with A&W, the root beer company, to set up a franchise. Back in the day their restaurants were really popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A&W Advertising Song\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But not everyone in Pacifica was totally into the idea of a restaurant on the beach. Weicher’s plan to build so close to the water sparked a big debate in the community. Who are the beaches for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The restaurant was like an open invitation for others who wish to park their businesses on the beach. So you know, let one build there, and others will follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica planning commission wasn’t that jazzed about people building commercial structures on the beach at all, Deb says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The A&W on the beach was the main example of what could happen if beach property were privately owned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Despite concerns, the commission approved the plan, but required Weichers to deed some strips of land near the building to the public to ensure access and public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment opened in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The outside may have been meant to blend in with the dunes, but the inside made no such concessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>It was totally 70s. It was orange and brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Pacifica local Kelly Rose worked at the restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I can remember it so well. The image of it is burned into my memory banks. It had a shag a brown shag carpet., dark wood paneling. It had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood and they had a very thick layer of varathane on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Kelly remembers a long counter and two sets of glass doors. One led to the parking lot, the other, to the beach. She says the counter was staffed mostly by high school girls, also donning the orange and brown. Slip over aprons paired with triangular head scarves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>When the weather was nice, which wasn’t often, there would be times when every cashier would be working, taking orders. So I imagine it was probably grossing a lot for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beachside location was a big draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it. And I worked there one night and you could see it come out onto the parking lot, out in front. It was crazy. We just couldn’t believe it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even in those pre-internet days, the A&W achieved its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But the A&W didn’t last forever…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover: \u003c/strong>Pacifica Tribune, July 1985 – Beachfront A&W to be replaced by a Taco Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>Well, you know what it is, location, location, location, and that’s it. Whatever you put there is going to be popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For locals like Nancy who grew up with the burger joint, the shift to a Taco Bell was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long:\u003c/strong> I was really sad about it, because A&W is unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was there for a long time. It was an institution for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In 2019, the Taco Bell became a “cantina” and now serves alcohol. When Olivia and I visit, we put that part of the menu to the test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>OK, so we went with the frozen margarita with premium tequila, because that’s how we roll on Bay Curious. We have two potato …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>spicy potato soft tacos…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even on a weekday afternoon, the Taco Bell is packed. There are people waiting to place their orders on the self-service tablets, kids munching tacos and groups hanging out on the back deck enjoying 32 ounce slushy margaritas out of novelty cups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> A yard, 32 ounces? Oh my god, no. Thank you. Regular! (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn why you don’t see many other restaurants on beaches in California. And what sea level rise could mean for this beachside spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, and while we’re on break, maybe take a moment to donate to KQED? It takes just a few minutes and helps keep shows ours running. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about *THAT* Taco Bell in Pacifica – a cantina that’s literally right on the beach. Some people love it, but others have fought hard to prevent places like it from popping up along the California coast. Reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Around the same time Pacificans were raising concerns about the A&W, similar battles were playing out up and down the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway One, the way they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Charles Lester. He worked for the State of California and the California Coastal Commission for twenty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>And places like Malibu were already starting to see kind of this cheek to jowl residential development along the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Efforts to rein in coastal developments were slow going. But out of these local fights, a broader grassroots response was taking shape: the “save our coast” movement. Californians put an initiative on the ballot, and it passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip: \u003c/strong>The passage of Proposition 20 on November the 8th has signaled the beginning of the most ambitious and comprehensive effort ever mounted in this nation and perhaps the world. For the purpose of developing a process for managing coastal zone resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>The reason why we have an initiative is because there was failed efforts in the legislature to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Proposition 20 established the California Coastal Commission to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline. California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip:\u003c/strong> It has taken many hard lessons for us here in California to begin to understand the need for land and marine resource conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Approved by voters in 1972, the proposition didn’t go into effect until 1973. That’s a year after the A&W opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>When I see it I go, oh, that must be from the 60s or the 70s, it looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That old A&W made it onto the beach in the nick of time. The building that would later become the Taco Bell, was grandfathered in. And thanks to prop 20, competition in the beachside fast food scene is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Charles, the bigger question now is of the building’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>It’s a challenging location when you’re that close to the surf zone and you get big storms, the waves are going to come up, and eventually, with sea level rise, you’re going to have some serious issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With just two meters of sea level rise, he says, the ocean would push right up against the restaurant. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear—but some estimates put that at 75 years from now, but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>In my mind, yeah, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time, you know, responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Charles says the Taco Bell would likely qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act. That could make it eligible for a protective structure. Think sea wall or some other form of shoreline protection. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester:\u003c/strong> …. a lot of people are thinking given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned in a lot of places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of inside the Taco Bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price and Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>Mmm. It’s like a lighter churro. It tastes like Cinnamon Toast Crunch.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nGabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Back at the Taco Bell, on this gloriously sunny day, it’s hard to imagine this place not being here. For now though, for as long as it lasts, it’s safe to say it will remain iconic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katie Sprenger, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "The Pacifica Taco Bell, just outside of San Francisco, is legendary for its beachfront views and retro architecture. How did a fast food chain end up with such prime real estate? ",
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"title": "It’s the Most Beautiful Taco Bell in the World. Here’s Why It Could Never Be Built Today | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’ve ever driven south from\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> on California Highway 1 towards Pacifica, you know that moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You round a curve, and there it is all of a sudden: the glorious Pacific Ocean. Five minutes ago, you could have been on any highway in America. But now, it’s clear. You’re in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re seeing the ocean to your right, and all these little hamlets located in these small, little valleys on your left,” said Henry Lie, who was born and raised in Pacifica. “And that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods [tucked] into smaller valleys.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon enough, you’ll see Pacifica State Beach stretching out before you. Locals call it Linda Mar beach, but back in the day, it was San Pedro Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s very picturesque, and it just so happens, at the very center is a Taco Bell,” Lie said. “But it’s not a standard Taco Bell. It’s different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079611\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079611\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02363_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People enter the Taco Bell Cantina in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Sitting in a prime location nearly touching the sand, this Taco Bell is a little more stately than the average fast-food restaurant. It’s got dark brown wood siding, a deck looking out over the Pacific Ocean and a lot of history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie has always wondered how this Taco Bell ended up with such an incredible spot on the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A restaurant on the beach\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The town we now know as Pacifica was incorporated in 1957, but back in the day, it used to be a collection of distinct coastal communities — places like Sharp Park, Rockaway Beach, and Vallemar. After World War II, the new city served as a bedroom community for San Francisco, home to families and a slower pace of life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local historian Deb Wong said that baby boomers in Pacifica were craving something more than what the sleepy town had to offer. So, in the 1960s, a real estate agent named Bud Wiechers offered up a possible solution: a beachside restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Linda Mar beach was a quiet, sandy strip. “Just a really nice beach with a few structures on it,” Wong said. To Pacifica locals, the Wander Inn was the mainstay — its motto says it all: “Wander Inn, Stagger Out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Wiechers planned to turn a small lot he owned nearby on Linda Mar beach into an A&W franchise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But not everyone was excited by the prospect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The A&W attracted a lot of attention,” Wong said. “And it gave people ideas about businesses that they could build on the beach.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That made the Pacifica planning commission wary of the idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They were uneasy about private property on the beach and too much building on the beach,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their reservations, the city did eventually grant Wiechers permission to build his restaurant, on the condition that he deed some land to the public to ensure access.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/744727110/?match=1&terms=A%26W\">opened\u003c/a> in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Former A&W employee Nancy Cook Long said the building had a “rustic-looking kind of design.” The exterior was covered in wood siding. A local paper described the intention: “blend with its marine location.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside the restaurant, though, \u003cem>different\u003c/em> aesthetic choices had been made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was totally 70s; it was orange and brown,” Pacifica local Kelly Rose said. As a teen, Rose worked at the A&W.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It had a brown shag carpet, dark wood paneling; it had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood, and they had a very thick layer of varithane on them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079602\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1913px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079602\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1913\" height=\"1275\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed.jpg 1913w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01610_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1913px) 100vw, 1913px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Customers walk out of Taco Bell Cantina with their orders in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Rose remembered a long counter — typical of a fast food restaurant — and then two sets of doors. One leads to the parking lot, the other to the beach. The back patio was built on stilts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it,” Cook Long said. ”And that was absolutely unbelievable to a lot of us, like, are you kidding?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even back then — before Taco Bell and internet fame — the restaurant managed to achieve its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California,” Wong said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the A&W wouldn’t last forever. In 1985, it closed its doors. The reasons for the closure, as reported in a local newspaper at the time, included the owner-operator’s scheduling constraints and plans for the opening of Wendy’s restaurant nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What’s next for the primo locale?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For decades, locals had lined up at the beachside A&W — but a new chapter was about to begin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The owner of the San Pedro Beach land on which the A&W Restaurant has stood for many years has bought out the lease and is completing negotiations with another firm which contemplates replacing it with a Taco Bell restaurant,” the \u003cem>Pacifica Tribune\u003c/em> said on July 31, 1985.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That year, the restaurant transitioned to a Taco Bell. For locals who grew up with the A&W, the change was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was really sad about it,” Long said. “Because A&W [was] unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was an institution for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the past 40 years, the Taco Bell here has thrived. Dubbed by news outlets and influencers alike as “‘the world’s most beautiful Taco Bell,”’ it has attracted visitors from around the globe. Taco Bell even lists it on their \u003ca href=\"https://www.tacobell.com/stories/Coolesttacobells\">website\u003c/a> as the number one most beautiful Taco Bell you never knew existed. American surfer Kai Lenny said that every time he surfs at nearby Mavericks, he stops by the \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hl2M9BpEdg\">Taco Bell for a burrito.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then, in 2019, the Taco Bell became a Cantina, an establishment that can legally sell alcohol. The change has only helped make it more popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lie, our question-asker, said it’s one of his go-to spots when friends visit the Bay Area. “I feel like it’s a Bay Area landmark that really only locals know,” Lie said. “It is fun because it’s an interesting quirk of our hometown, and it’s something that makes Pacifica unique.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the end of the day, it’s the location that does the heavy lifting. You can get a spicy potato soft taco anywhere — but how often can you eat it while watching surfers take on the rolling waves of the Pacific?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not very often. The reason? California’s Coastal Commission.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Coastal Act and the Taco Bell\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Charles Lester is a coastal policy expert. And when he looks at the Taco Bell, he sees evidence of a very different time in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I see it, I go, oh, that must be from the ‘60s or the ‘70s, without knowing for sure,” Lester said. “It looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coasts.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079609\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079609\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02215_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Informational signs at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Around the same time Pacifica locals were raising their concerns about private businesses on public beaches, similar battles were playing out up and down California’s coast. Reactions to the Sea Ranch development and a proposed nuclear plant at Bodega Head, both in Sonoma County, are just two examples.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Places like Malibu were already starting to see this cheek-to-jowl residential development along the beach,” Lester said. “People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway 1 the way they used to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Citizens took their concerns to local and state officials, but Sacramento was slow to respond. The growing unease spurred a grassroots movement that would come to impact California forever. In 1972 — the same year the A&W opened its doors — California voters passed Proposition 20. It established the California Coastal Commission, a body whose mandate is to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The A&W — and by extension the Taco Bell — snuck in before regulations went into effect.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A future hanging in balance\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Lester, the bigger question now is of the building’s future. When I met up with him at his home, he’d come prepared. His 40-inch television screen turned monitor showed an aerial view of Linda Mar beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I wanted to look at this 2023 photo because it shows you where the wave run-up was at the time,” Lester points to a line in the sand. “You can see that at some point, right before this photo was taken, the waves were coming up right to the toe of that structure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079612\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079612\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell02401_TV_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Families and individuals enjoy a day at Pacifica State Beach in Pacifica, California, on April 8, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With just two meters of sea level rise, he said, the ocean could push right up against the restaurant regularly. Throw in a storm, and the waves could inundate it. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear — some extreme estimates say in\u003ca href=\"https://scripps.ucsd.edu/research/climate-change-resources/faq-sea-level-rise-and-california\"> 75 years, \u003c/a>but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In my mind, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically,” Lester said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Taco Bell might qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act, Lester said, potentially entitling it to some form of protection. If he could, though, he’d pick it up and move it inland. This form of managed retreat, he said, is our best option.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A lot of people are thinking, given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned, in a lot of places,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, the Pacifica Taco Bell exists as an anomaly. It was built before modern rules, giving it a prime spot on the sand and very little competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Whatever you put there is going to be popular,” Wong said. “But the thing is, you can’t put anything else there, and Taco Bell isn’t giving it up, and they are famous now.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>We are on Highway One, officially coming off 280 onto Highway One. And oh my gosh, there she is, the mighty Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape: \u003c/strong>And you’re seeing, like the ocean to your right, and all these little like hamlets on your left and and that whole that’s all Pacifica, just a stringlet of various neighborhoods nooked into smaller valleys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck and I are following directions from question asker Henry Lie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>We pass neighborhoods like Sharp Park and Rockaway Beach on our way to an iconic Pacifica landmark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape:\u003c/strong> I love this drive in…. I mean, right now, it’s like, sun soaked, which is actually rare. Usually, I feel like, as you come to Pacifica, you’re like stepping into the fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> And so you get further south, and you come across this crest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in tape: \u003c/strong>Wow! Okay, so we’re passing over where the pier juts out into the ocean, seeing some jagged rocks on the horizon as we make our way toward the beach. Which beach are we going to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Henry Lie in tape:\u003c/strong> I think it’s technically called Pacifica State Beach, but everyone calls it Linda Mar. And then you notice this one big brown building…and all of a sudden you see that it’s a Taco Bell, on the beach!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This Taco Bell is legendary. Tiktokers can’t resist it, and Bay Area locals are no different. It’s a fast food restaurant like any other… but the views! The weathered wood exterior has an organic feel, blending in with the natural beauty around it. There’s a palm tree right next to the parking lot and the back porch of the restaurant is built on stilts right on the sand.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio: \u003c/strong>Henry wanted to know more about this Taco Bell. How did it end up on the beach like this? And what’s gonna happen to it in the future? It’s a story that goes beyond Pacifica and asks who are California beaches for? Who gets to use them and how.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even though the Taco Bell parking lot is packed today, back in the 1960s and 70s Pacifica was pretty quiet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>I’d say it was mostly middle-class families who were just starting out post war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Nancy Cook Long grew up here back when it was not a place on most people’s radar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Everybody knew everybody. You played outside, kick the can and freeze tag, and you rode cardboard boxes down the sides of hills. …it was just a little hometown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beach at Linda Mar, known back in the day as San Pedro beach – was pretty bare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>Certainly in high school, people would go hang out at the beach. But before that, it was just, I’m going to say, almost something we took for granted and I don’t think it had anywhere near the popularity for surfing that it does now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>There were a few small buildings, but all in all, mostly a stretch of sand. Until that is, a man by the name of “Bud” Wikers got an idea to turn a small oceanside lot he owned into a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>He knew that with the baby boomers out there who were demanding something more than what we had in Pacifica at the time, he thought it would be a great idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As local historian Deb Wong tells it, Bud got in touch with A&W, the root beer company, to set up a franchise. Back in the day their restaurants were really popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A&W Advertising Song\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But not everyone in Pacifica was totally into the idea of a restaurant on the beach. Weicher’s plan to build so close to the water sparked a big debate in the community. Who are the beaches for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The restaurant was like an open invitation for others who wish to park their businesses on the beach. So you know, let one build there, and others will follow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The Pacifica planning commission wasn’t that jazzed about people building commercial structures on the beach at all, Deb says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong:\u003c/strong> The A&W on the beach was the main example of what could happen if beach property were privately owned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Despite concerns, the commission approved the plan, but required Weichers to deed some strips of land near the building to the public to ensure access and public use.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beachside establishment opened in the spring of 1972. And late in April, the restaurant held an official grand opening celebration. Miss Pacifica even made an appearance to help cut the ribbon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The outside may have been meant to blend in with the dunes, but the inside made no such concessions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>It was totally 70s. It was orange and brown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Pacifica local Kelly Rose worked at the restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>Oh my gosh, I can remember it so well. The image of it is burned into my memory banks. It had a shag a brown shag carpet., dark wood paneling. It had a fireplace. The tables were dark wood and they had a very thick layer of varathane on them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Kelly remembers a long counter and two sets of glass doors. One led to the parking lot, the other, to the beach. She says the counter was staffed mostly by high school girls, also donning the orange and brown. Slip over aprons paired with triangular head scarves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Rose: \u003c/strong>When the weather was nice, which wasn’t often, there would be times when every cashier would be working, taking orders. So I imagine it was probably grossing a lot for them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The beachside location was a big draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long: \u003c/strong>They told us it was built on stilts, because twice a year the water would come up and go under it. And I worked there one night and you could see it come out onto the parking lot, out in front. It was crazy. We just couldn’t believe it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even in those pre-internet days, the A&W achieved its own version of virality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>It received recognition in a surfing magazine as the best located fast food restaurant in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>But the A&W didn’t last forever…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voiceover: \u003c/strong>Pacifica Tribune, July 1985 – Beachfront A&W to be replaced by a Taco Bell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Deb Wong: \u003c/strong>Well, you know what it is, location, location, location, and that’s it. Whatever you put there is going to be popular.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For locals like Nancy who grew up with the burger joint, the shift to a Taco Bell was bittersweet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nancy Cook Long:\u003c/strong> I was really sad about it, because A&W is unique. It was just not like every other fast food place. It was there for a long time. It was an institution for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In 2019, the Taco Bell became a “cantina” and now serves alcohol. When Olivia and I visit, we put that part of the menu to the test.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>OK, so we went with the frozen margarita with premium tequila, because that’s how we roll on Bay Curious. We have two potato …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>spicy potato soft tacos…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Even on a weekday afternoon, the Taco Bell is packed. There are people waiting to place their orders on the self-service tablets, kids munching tacos and groups hanging out on the back deck enjoying 32 ounce slushy margaritas out of novelty cups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> A yard, 32 ounces? Oh my god, no. Thank you. Regular! (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in studio:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn why you don’t see many other restaurants on beaches in California. And what sea level rise could mean for this beachside spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, and while we’re on break, maybe take a moment to donate to KQED? It takes just a few minutes and helps keep shows ours running. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re talking about *THAT* Taco Bell in Pacifica – a cantina that’s literally right on the beach. Some people love it, but others have fought hard to prevent places like it from popping up along the California coast. Reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Around the same time Pacificans were raising concerns about the A&W, similar battles were playing out up and down the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>People were getting concerned about not being able to get to the beach or see it from Highway One, the way they used to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>This is Charles Lester. He worked for the State of California and the California Coastal Commission for twenty years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>And places like Malibu were already starting to see kind of this cheek to jowl residential development along the beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Efforts to rein in coastal developments were slow going. But out of these local fights, a broader grassroots response was taking shape: the “save our coast” movement. Californians put an initiative on the ballot, and it passed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip: \u003c/strong>The passage of Proposition 20 on November the 8th has signaled the beginning of the most ambitious and comprehensive effort ever mounted in this nation and perhaps the world. For the purpose of developing a process for managing coastal zone resources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>The reason why we have an initiative is because there was failed efforts in the legislature to do anything about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Proposition 20 established the California Coastal Commission to regulate development and protect public access along the coastline. California now has one of the most protected coastlines in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Newsclip:\u003c/strong> It has taken many hard lessons for us here in California to begin to understand the need for land and marine resource conversation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Approved by voters in 1972, the proposition didn’t go into effect until 1973. That’s a year after the A&W opened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>When I see it I go, oh, that must be from the 60s or the 70s, it looks like a lot of other developments in different places in California that were some of the reasons why we have a Coastal Act and why we decided to protect the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That old A&W made it onto the beach in the nick of time. The building that would later become the Taco Bell, was grandfathered in. And thanks to prop 20, competition in the beachside fast food scene is scarce.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For Charles, the bigger question now is of the building’s future.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>It’s a challenging location when you’re that close to the surf zone and you get big storms, the waves are going to come up, and eventually, with sea level rise, you’re going to have some serious issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>With just two meters of sea level rise, he says, the ocean would push right up against the restaurant. \u003cem>When\u003c/em> that will happen is still unclear—but some estimates put that at 75 years from now, but most projections put it 100 to 200 years away, depending on emissions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester: \u003c/strong>In my mind, yeah, it’s inevitable that at some point you’ll be spending so much time, you know, responding to the wave attack and the wave damage and the storms that it won’t make any more sense economically.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Charles says the Taco Bell would likely qualify as an ‘existing structure’ under the Coastal Act. That could make it eligible for a protective structure. Think sea wall or some other form of shoreline protection. But…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Charles Lester:\u003c/strong> …. a lot of people are thinking given the inevitability of sea level rise and the immense energy we’re talking about in the ocean, that it’s going to be retreat, planned or unplanned in a lot of places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of inside the Taco Bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price and Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>Mmm. It’s like a lighter churro. It tastes like Cinnamon Toast Crunch.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nGabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Back at the Taco Bell, on this gloriously sunny day, it’s hard to imagine this place not being here. For now though, for as long as it lasts, it’s safe to say it will remain iconic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Additional support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey, Katie Sprenger, and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How do you make friends?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It may seem like a simple question, but it’s a difficult one to answer for so many people, especially here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re a community that has a lot of folks coming and going all time. Many places where we once gathered – so-called third spaces – closed during the pandemic. Going out is expensive! We’re all busy, with many balancing the time demands of family, keeping our health in check, careers and unfortunately, \u003cem>commuting\u003c/em> to those careers. Plus, the pandemic made some of us feel pretty rusty on our social skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years Bay Curious has received a few questions from people looking for advice on how to build friendships here. We even tackled the topic 8 years ago. But in the post-pandemic world, we thought it was high time we revisited the topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So today we’re going to share an episode from The Bay that we think has some great tips. Even if you have a full stable of friends, there’s always room for one more. Enjoy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9397229188&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How do you make friends?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It may seem like a simple question, but it’s a difficult one to answer for so many people. Especially here in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re a community that has a lot of folks coming and going all time. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of places where folks gathered – so-called third spaces – closed during the pandemic.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Going out is expensive!\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re all busy! With many balancing the time demands of family, keeping our health in check, careers and unfortunately, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">commuting to those careers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The pandemic made some of us feel rusty – it can feel easier to stay home and scroll the internet…\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…and it can feel impossible to make a good old fashioned friend anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Over the years Bay Curious has received a few questions from people looking for advice on how to build friendships here. So today we’re going to share an episode from The Bay, another KQED podcast, who just tackled this topic. And we really loved their episode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here’s host of The Bay, Ericka Cruz Guevarra kicking things off with Bay producer, Jessica Kariisa…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra [\u003c/strong>00:04:39] We put out a call out to our listeners about making friends in the Bay Area. Can you actually just remind us first what we were asking?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:51] So we asked folks basically what are their thoughts on how it is to make friends in the Bay Area? Do they find it easy? Do they find it hard, what’s worked for them, what’s not worked for them. We got a lot of responses from people saying that they were not having a hard time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bee\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:05:13] I find it very easy to make friends.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:05:16] Some people are born and raised here. There was a caller named Bee in Oakland who said, you know, he’s very extroverted, he has kids. So there’s lots of opportunities for him to meet different kinds of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bee \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:29] In Oakland, I think a lot of folks look after each other and want to be in connection with their neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:36] Similarly, there was a caller named Dan in San Francisco who is also very extroverted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:05:42] I find it quite easy to make friends in San Francisco. Super easy to chat with anyone. I love talking to strangers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:52] He’s in a co-living type situation. He’s also in a coworking situation. He volunteers. In fact, he said it was so easy for him that he has too many friends, and he needs to cut back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:04] I have to divest from some potential friendships to focus on the ones I have or the ones that I’m already investing in. It really is a bounty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dian \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:16] My name is Dian Ostolski. I live in Pittsburgh. I came out after my divorce.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:23] And there’s also people who’ve moved here who’ve had a really easy time making friends. There was a lady who reached out to us named Dian. She’s a trans woman. She came out after moving to the Bay Area and she’s had an amazing experience making friends out here. She’s joined a lot of supportive groups. She also just has picked up so many hobbies and the Bay area has actually been the place where her identity has like blossomed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dian \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:49] In Walnut Creek. We have Club 1220. It’s the only gay bar left in the county, but they’ve been here for 30 years. And I started learning how to play pool and ended up joining two different leagues. So I have just met so many more friends than I ever thought at coming out to California at my age of 55, now 69. So much friendship and support. It has been wonderful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:07:13] And then what about people who have struggled to make friends in the Bay Area? What did we hear from folks on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:07:22] Hi, this is Emily calling from Oakland about making friends.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:07:28] There was a caller named Emily, and she said that two of her closest friends moved away because they couldn’t afford to stay in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:37] I think that that is a challenge a lot of people experience of making good friends and then they leave. And so having consistent community is difficult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:50] Definitely. I have a friend who I made maybe in the last three years who is moving soon, not necessarily because she’s getting pushed out but because she just, I feel like it’s just a transitory sort of place, the Bay Area. People sort of come for a little bit and then leave and you know go off to do other things and yeah how do you maintain those friendships outside of the Bay area too? You, Jessica, wanted to follow one specific person. Tell me a little bit about Katie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:25] One of the listeners who reached out to us is a woman named Katie Barrow, and she’s been struggling to make friends.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:08:32] I am 42 and I am from Flagstaff, Arizona, born and raised and lived there until I went to college at Syracuse, which was about as far away as I could possibly go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:45] She’s lived in San Jose for the past 10 years. She’s in the broader Bay Area even longer than that. She moved here after college.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:08:53] I moved to California the day after I graduated. I was tired of the cold and looking forward to some sun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:02] Katie is recently divorced and so she’s a single mom and she was a stay at home mom for seven years and after her divorce she got back into the workforce. So her whole identity has shifted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:09:15] When you’re married, you have your partner and you don’t need as many friends to be there for you like after work. You kind of always have someone to do something with. I wanted to find other people that I could go out and do things with. I wanted go to the movies or go to a bar. I’m super creative. I love painting and I love crafts as just an outlet. Didn’t always have someone to do that with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:51] And so she’s at a place where she’s been trying to make new friends as she adjusts to this new chapter in her life. And she told us that it’s been really hard for her for a lot of the same reasons that we’ve brought up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:03] The biggest challenge is just being busy and like being in the Bay Area, I think everyone is busy and everyone has unique interests and so it’s hard to find someone that can align with your schedule and your interests.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:21] To her credit, she has tried a lot of different things. She’s tried meetup groups, she’s tried exercise classes, but it’s been difficult in all those different things just to kind of take things to the next level, and to also find people who also want to commit to making a new friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:43] The consistency part.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:44] Part of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:45] Yeah, and especially I imagine as a single mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:49] That’s key. Right, yeah exactly. I mean her time is pretty limited and so I think having people who have flexibility in their schedule is also really important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:01] Yeah, driving is another thing. San Francisco feels really far. I’d love to meet someone who lived in a similar area so we could just kind of meet after work, go to happy hour, and it didn’t feel like something that needed to be really planned and have lots of logistics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:23] I don’t know how many times, you know, I’ve met people, or even with close friends, you open up your Google calendar, when are you free? No, not free, no, not, and then next thing you know you’re meeting like two months from now, you now, which is not really conducive to building intimate relationships quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return, Jessica tries to help Katie – and all of us – make some friends. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGES\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:42]: Jessica, you decided to actually try and help. Where did you start? How’d you help her out?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:11:52] Right, yeah, I decided to play fairy godmother. And so I went out, I met Katie in San Jose. I also live in San José, so that was very convenient. And then I actually reached out to a friendship expert, you could say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:08] So my name is Kat, and I am a connection coach and educator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:13] Her name is Kat Vellos. She’s based in the Bay Area, and she’s a connection, coach and an educator and a researcher who has studied. Adult friendships, how people make friendships, also how the built environment affects our ability to make and sustain friendships.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:12:31] All of the work that I do is about helping people cultivate more friendships, and community in their lives, and also creating more places that are conducive to the creation of friendship and community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:41] When I brought up Katie’s case, like she told me she actually had very similar experiences when she moved to the Bay Area. She’s a transplant to this area, and she found that a lot of friends she was making were moving away. And I was like, man, it’s really hard to make friends and the more people I to to find out how friendship was going for them. The more people said, man, it’s really hard to make friends as an adult. And so that also was actually what spurred a lot of her research into how to sustain connections.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:13] So you shared with Kat, Katie’s situation, she’s a single mom, she’s in her early 40s, she’s on this sort of new life stage, she’s living in San Jose and she’s trying to make friends. What was Kat’s advice for Katie?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:29] She said that sustained connection really boils down to like four things. She calls them the four seeds of connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:41] So the seeds of connection are the four elements that determine whether your new friendship is going to stick and last and get deeper.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:52] And those are compatibility. Do we get along? Do we vibe? Is there a vibe? Proximity, you know, are we close to each other? Can we actually see each other, right? Frequency and commitment. And so in Katie’s case, she found that there was definitely seeds of compatibility in some of the things she was trying out, proximity. She was trying things in her neighborhood and in her area, but there was not enough frequency and there was no enough commitment. And that doesn’t mean she’s doing something wrong. I’m just saying what we would want to focus on to increase more depth and connection in her life. And so her recommendation was that Katie basically needs to find a group or an activity and become an enthusiastic regular in that space. Join a club that brings together people that you’re compatible with and where the conversation is going to be easy and abundant. And so one thing Katie talked about that she liked doing is she likes crafting. And so Kat went and found a craft group in the South Bay. You know, it’s not like that she has to do that exact activity, but just in the, to give an example, if you like crafting, check out this craft group, go there, keep going there, and on top of that, be enthusiastic in your participation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:15:32] So that means not just showing up and hanging in a corner, then scurrying out the door before it’s over, actually going up, having some conversation with other people there. And when you meet someone that you think you click with, invite them to spend time together outside of that place too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:15:46] She said follow up with them almost immediately to do something like hit them up right away. If you met on a Tuesday, try to see them that weekend and try to invite them to something that you’re already doing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:00] So level one might be going for a walk, getting a coffee, having a drink, having a meal. But level two, I encourage you to think about maybe making it a level two thing, which is something that’s a little bit more interesting and meaningful to you, right? So if you love bird watching, invite them to go to the marina and look at birds with you. If you love women’s basketball, invite them come watch a game at your favorite sports bar. If you like trivia, invite them be on your trivia team next week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:32] So Kat recommends a craft night. What did Katie think of this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:37] Hey, Katie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:38] Hi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:39] Does this sound okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:41] Yeah, this sounds good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:42] She was pretty excited about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:44] Where you’re sitting down and knitting – I like that idea.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:46] One thing she did mention to me was that she hadn’t, cause I think the group was actually a crochet group and she hadn’t crocheted in like 10 years. And so she needed to kind of brush up on her crochet skills a little bit, but she was still down for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:17:03] And what do you think about the part about being like an enthusiastic regular, like giving someone your number and trying to hang out soon? How does that feel?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:17:14] It feels intimidating, but I think it’s an important part of making the actual connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:28] So how did it go? Did Katie actually go to the craft night and what was her experience like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:35] So I actually shared this advice with Katie like a month ago, and she had a very eventful month of March.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:45] I have tried a couple of different things and learned a lot about myself and my schedule and limitations and yeah, a lot of really good things came out of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:59] She didn’t wanna go into the crochet night cold turkey. So she signed up for a crochet class and she actually invited a coworker friend to go with her to this crochet class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:13] Is this a co-worker that she was interested in being friends with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:19] Yeah I think this was a co-worker that she was already work friends with, but was also open to the idea of that friendship expanding beyond work. And so she invited her out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:29] And we learned how to crochet in an hour. It all came back to me pretty quickly, a little more challenging for her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:37] The demographic was about 20 years older than them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:18:42] I don’t hate that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:18:44] I don’t hate it either. But I think the vibe wasn’t vibing. It seemed a little too a little to far out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:52] Well, that’s probably not representative of some of the other clubs. Um, I thought, you know, maybe, um, I should look into some other activities also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:00] So after the crochet class, Katie went to a pickleball class. She said she met some pretty cool people there. The teacher was great. The other participants in the class were really great, but she kind of chickened out and didn’t ask for contacts afterwards. And so there was no way to really follow up with those people again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:24] I wish I had gotten their information, because I would love to go and play with them again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:33] But then her coworker, kind of like as a little, you know, I came out with you, so you come out with me kind of thing, invited Katie out to a run club. And so Katie went out to this run club and she was feeling it. She went with her dog, you know which is great conversation starter. If you have a dog and you want to make friends take the dog out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:19:55] Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:19:57] My dog Sally is a great emotional support and she’s super friendly. And every time I bring her somewhere, people just come up and talk to me and pet her. And so that was a great way to just kind of get immersed in the group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:20:15] She did like the walk / run path, you know, and then afterwards, uh, people went out to a pub afterwards. It was like a run club where people go and go to a pub afterwards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:29] Uh, some people there that I could definitely see myself being friends with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:36] And she talked to some folks there and she exchanged some contacts. So that was really successful and she definitely sees herself going back out to the Run Club.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:20:49] I’m feeling very proud of Katie right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:51] Me too, me too. Katie really did her thing and that’s just like the tip of the iceberg. She did so many other things. One thing that Katie talked about wanting in her life was spontaneity, right? Someone who she could just hit up last minute, be like. I’m gonna go, do you wanna do this thing with me? But the other side of that is also being up for doing stuff yourself, right? Like being up for other people’s spontaneous invites. And so her kids do theater. And so there’s a group of theater parents that see each other at theater events, don’t usually hang out outside of that, but are loosely connected on social media. And one of the theater parents posted one night, I have this really delicious cake. Does anybody wanna come eat it with me, a carrot cake? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:21:38] And I just said, yeah, I’d love to. And so I went over that night and a couple of other theater friends were there too. And so it was a really cool like impromptu get together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:55] She wasn’t the only one there. A few other people showed up and she happened to have some, you know, extra tickets to her daughter’s play. And so she invited people out and then she got to hang out with them again. And so, she’s really just been, you now, firing on all cylinders really and just trying all sorts of things to try to make some connections and it’s really been panning out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:22:20] You know, just assuming that people are busy isn’t always correct and sometimes it’s cool to try to do things spontaneously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:26] And something really interesting Katie told me is that through this process, this challenge, she ended up telling a lot of people about it. And she was like, that’s actually really powerful too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:38] I think a lot of times people might think that you already have your friendship circle and when they know that you are like actively looking to expand and do things with other people, then they are more welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:54] I was mentioning earlier, she’s been hanging out a lot with her coworker. That was an existing connection in her life. And I think one thing that she’s also been leaning into, also like the theater parent, is the people who are already there. Sometimes we take for granted the people that are already in our life. We think, oh, they’re too busy, they’re to this, they are to whatever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:23:15] They’re too far away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:23:16] They’re too far away — too far way, too far away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:20] Looking at you, Jessica Kariisa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:22] Listen, Vallejo San Jose. People do it all the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:23:24] I guess overall, what has changed for Katie? Does she just have like hella friends now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:33] You know, I don’t think Katie would say she has hella friends now, but I think what was interesting, talking to Katie, like listening to her first voice note and why we wanted to talk to her. It just seemed like she was kind of in a place where she felt like she didn’t know what to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:53] Actually, March has been such a fun month. It’s been busy. My house is a mess because I’ve been going out a lot more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:59] Talking to her now, it just feels like all of a sudden where a bunch of doors felt shut, now a bunch doors feel open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:08] I’m just looking forward to being out more, being involved in the community, meeting new people and maybe even starting a craft group at my house.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:24:27] I’m curious, Jessica, what takeaways you have from your reporting, and what takeaways do you have around what actually works?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:24:36] You just have to keep showing up. You know, I think you just have to keep show up and I’ve seen this in my personal life too. Where you go out to whatever event, you think, oh my gosh, I’m just gonna click with everybody and you come back and you’re like, that sucked. And what do you do after that? You keep showing. Whether it’s maybe that same event because there’s something worthwhile there, or you try a different event, or you just go for walks in your neighborhood every day. Going for walks to my neighborhood every day, I actually got to know my neighbors. It took about a year, but it still happened. You never know where those connections are gonna come from and how they’re gonna develop, but they will develop and they will come. And that’s definitely like something to look forward to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well Jessica Kariisa it was such a pleasure having you on this side of the microphone. Thank you so much for doing this and for sharing your reporting with us. I really appreciate you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, thank you so much for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Ericka Cruz Guevarra and Jessica Kariisa with The Bay. If you like what you heard be sure to subscribe to their show – it’s a great way to keep up with local news in a way that helps you to really, truly understand it. Find The Bay wherever you listen!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Bay is made by: Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa and Ericka Cruz Guevarra. On the Bay Curious side it’s Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With support from Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven Lindsey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ECG: You can join the thousands of everyday listeners who help power shows like The Bay by becoming a KQED member. Which you can do at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Now go make a friend!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"title": "How to Make Friends in the Bay Area | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. How do you make friends? It may seem like a simple question, but it’s a difficult one to answer for so many people, especially here in the Bay Area. We’re a community that has a lot of folks coming and going all time. Many places where we once gathered – so-called third spaces – closed during the pandemic. Going out is expensive! We’re all busy, with many balancing the time demands of family, keeping our health in check, careers and unfortunately, commuting to those careers. Plus, the pandemic made some of us feel pretty rusty",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How do you make friends?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It may seem like a simple question, but it’s a difficult one to answer for so many people, especially here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re a community that has a lot of folks coming and going all time. Many places where we once gathered – so-called third spaces – closed during the pandemic. Going out is expensive! We’re all busy, with many balancing the time demands of family, keeping our health in check, careers and unfortunately, \u003cem>commuting\u003c/em> to those careers. Plus, the pandemic made some of us feel pretty rusty on our social skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years Bay Curious has received a few questions from people looking for advice on how to build friendships here. We even tackled the topic 8 years ago. But in the post-pandemic world, we thought it was high time we revisited the topic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So today we’re going to share an episode from The Bay that we think has some great tips. Even if you have a full stable of friends, there’s always room for one more. Enjoy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC9397229188&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How do you make friends?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It may seem like a simple question, but it’s a difficult one to answer for so many people. Especially here in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re a community that has a lot of folks coming and going all time. \u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of places where folks gathered – so-called third spaces – closed during the pandemic.\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Going out is expensive!\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re all busy! With many balancing the time demands of family, keeping our health in check, careers and unfortunately, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">commuting to those careers.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli style=\"font-weight: 400;\" aria-level=\"1\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The pandemic made some of us feel rusty – it can feel easier to stay home and scroll the internet…\u003c/span>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">…and it can feel impossible to make a good old fashioned friend anymore.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Over the years Bay Curious has received a few questions from people looking for advice on how to build friendships here. So today we’re going to share an episode from The Bay, another KQED podcast, who just tackled this topic. And we really loved their episode.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here’s host of The Bay, Ericka Cruz Guevarra kicking things off with Bay producer, Jessica Kariisa…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cstrong>Ericka Cruz Guevarra [\u003c/strong>00:04:39] We put out a call out to our listeners about making friends in the Bay Area. Can you actually just remind us first what we were asking?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:04:51] So we asked folks basically what are their thoughts on how it is to make friends in the Bay Area? Do they find it easy? Do they find it hard, what’s worked for them, what’s not worked for them. We got a lot of responses from people saying that they were not having a hard time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bee\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:05:13] I find it very easy to make friends.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:05:16] Some people are born and raised here. There was a caller named Bee in Oakland who said, you know, he’s very extroverted, he has kids. So there’s lots of opportunities for him to meet different kinds of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bee \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:29] In Oakland, I think a lot of folks look after each other and want to be in connection with their neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:36] Similarly, there was a caller named Dan in San Francisco who is also very extroverted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:05:42] I find it quite easy to make friends in San Francisco. Super easy to chat with anyone. I love talking to strangers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:05:52] He’s in a co-living type situation. He’s also in a coworking situation. He volunteers. In fact, he said it was so easy for him that he has too many friends, and he needs to cut back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dan \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:04] I have to divest from some potential friendships to focus on the ones I have or the ones that I’m already investing in. It really is a bounty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dian \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:16] My name is Dian Ostolski. I live in Pittsburgh. I came out after my divorce.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:23] And there’s also people who’ve moved here who’ve had a really easy time making friends. There was a lady who reached out to us named Dian. She’s a trans woman. She came out after moving to the Bay Area and she’s had an amazing experience making friends out here. She’s joined a lot of supportive groups. She also just has picked up so many hobbies and the Bay area has actually been the place where her identity has like blossomed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dian \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:06:49] In Walnut Creek. We have Club 1220. It’s the only gay bar left in the county, but they’ve been here for 30 years. And I started learning how to play pool and ended up joining two different leagues. So I have just met so many more friends than I ever thought at coming out to California at my age of 55, now 69. So much friendship and support. It has been wonderful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:07:13] And then what about people who have struggled to make friends in the Bay Area? What did we hear from folks on that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:07:22] Hi, this is Emily calling from Oakland about making friends.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:07:28] There was a caller named Emily, and she said that two of her closest friends moved away because they couldn’t afford to stay in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Emily \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:37] I think that that is a challenge a lot of people experience of making good friends and then they leave. And so having consistent community is difficult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:07:50] Definitely. I have a friend who I made maybe in the last three years who is moving soon, not necessarily because she’s getting pushed out but because she just, I feel like it’s just a transitory sort of place, the Bay Area. People sort of come for a little bit and then leave and you know go off to do other things and yeah how do you maintain those friendships outside of the Bay area too? You, Jessica, wanted to follow one specific person. Tell me a little bit about Katie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:25] One of the listeners who reached out to us is a woman named Katie Barrow, and she’s been struggling to make friends.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:08:32] I am 42 and I am from Flagstaff, Arizona, born and raised and lived there until I went to college at Syracuse, which was about as far away as I could possibly go.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:08:45] She’s lived in San Jose for the past 10 years. She’s in the broader Bay Area even longer than that. She moved here after college.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:08:53] I moved to California the day after I graduated. I was tired of the cold and looking forward to some sun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:02] Katie is recently divorced and so she’s a single mom and she was a stay at home mom for seven years and after her divorce she got back into the workforce. So her whole identity has shifted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:09:15] When you’re married, you have your partner and you don’t need as many friends to be there for you like after work. You kind of always have someone to do something with. I wanted to find other people that I could go out and do things with. I wanted go to the movies or go to a bar. I’m super creative. I love painting and I love crafts as just an outlet. Didn’t always have someone to do that with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:09:51] And so she’s at a place where she’s been trying to make new friends as she adjusts to this new chapter in her life. And she told us that it’s been really hard for her for a lot of the same reasons that we’ve brought up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:03] The biggest challenge is just being busy and like being in the Bay Area, I think everyone is busy and everyone has unique interests and so it’s hard to find someone that can align with your schedule and your interests.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:21] To her credit, she has tried a lot of different things. She’s tried meetup groups, she’s tried exercise classes, but it’s been difficult in all those different things just to kind of take things to the next level, and to also find people who also want to commit to making a new friend.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:43] The consistency part.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:44] Part of this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:10:45] Yeah, and especially I imagine as a single mom.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:10:49] That’s key. Right, yeah exactly. I mean her time is pretty limited and so I think having people who have flexibility in their schedule is also really important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:01] Yeah, driving is another thing. San Francisco feels really far. I’d love to meet someone who lived in a similar area so we could just kind of meet after work, go to happy hour, and it didn’t feel like something that needed to be really planned and have lots of logistics.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:23] I don’t know how many times, you know, I’ve met people, or even with close friends, you open up your Google calendar, when are you free? No, not free, no, not, and then next thing you know you’re meeting like two months from now, you now, which is not really conducive to building intimate relationships quickly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return, Jessica tries to help Katie – and all of us – make some friends. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGES\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:11:42]: Jessica, you decided to actually try and help. Where did you start? How’d you help her out?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:11:52] Right, yeah, I decided to play fairy godmother. And so I went out, I met Katie in San Jose. I also live in San José, so that was very convenient. And then I actually reached out to a friendship expert, you could say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:08] So my name is Kat, and I am a connection coach and educator.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:13] Her name is Kat Vellos. She’s based in the Bay Area, and she’s a connection, coach and an educator and a researcher who has studied. Adult friendships, how people make friendships, also how the built environment affects our ability to make and sustain friendships.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:12:31] All of the work that I do is about helping people cultivate more friendships, and community in their lives, and also creating more places that are conducive to the creation of friendship and community.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:12:41] When I brought up Katie’s case, like she told me she actually had very similar experiences when she moved to the Bay Area. She’s a transplant to this area, and she found that a lot of friends she was making were moving away. And I was like, man, it’s really hard to make friends and the more people I to to find out how friendship was going for them. The more people said, man, it’s really hard to make friends as an adult. And so that also was actually what spurred a lot of her research into how to sustain connections.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:13] So you shared with Kat, Katie’s situation, she’s a single mom, she’s in her early 40s, she’s on this sort of new life stage, she’s living in San Jose and she’s trying to make friends. What was Kat’s advice for Katie?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:29] She said that sustained connection really boils down to like four things. She calls them the four seeds of connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:41] So the seeds of connection are the four elements that determine whether your new friendship is going to stick and last and get deeper.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:13:52] And those are compatibility. Do we get along? Do we vibe? Is there a vibe? Proximity, you know, are we close to each other? Can we actually see each other, right? Frequency and commitment. And so in Katie’s case, she found that there was definitely seeds of compatibility in some of the things she was trying out, proximity. She was trying things in her neighborhood and in her area, but there was not enough frequency and there was no enough commitment. And that doesn’t mean she’s doing something wrong. I’m just saying what we would want to focus on to increase more depth and connection in her life. And so her recommendation was that Katie basically needs to find a group or an activity and become an enthusiastic regular in that space. Join a club that brings together people that you’re compatible with and where the conversation is going to be easy and abundant. And so one thing Katie talked about that she liked doing is she likes crafting. And so Kat went and found a craft group in the South Bay. You know, it’s not like that she has to do that exact activity, but just in the, to give an example, if you like crafting, check out this craft group, go there, keep going there, and on top of that, be enthusiastic in your participation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:15:32] So that means not just showing up and hanging in a corner, then scurrying out the door before it’s over, actually going up, having some conversation with other people there. And when you meet someone that you think you click with, invite them to spend time together outside of that place too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:15:46] She said follow up with them almost immediately to do something like hit them up right away. If you met on a Tuesday, try to see them that weekend and try to invite them to something that you’re already doing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kat Vellos\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:00] So level one might be going for a walk, getting a coffee, having a drink, having a meal. But level two, I encourage you to think about maybe making it a level two thing, which is something that’s a little bit more interesting and meaningful to you, right? So if you love bird watching, invite them to go to the marina and look at birds with you. If you love women’s basketball, invite them come watch a game at your favorite sports bar. If you like trivia, invite them be on your trivia team next week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:32] So Kat recommends a craft night. What did Katie think of this?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:37] Hey, Katie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:38] Hi.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:39] Does this sound okay?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:41] Yeah, this sounds good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:42] She was pretty excited about it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:16:44] Where you’re sitting down and knitting – I like that idea.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:16:46] One thing she did mention to me was that she hadn’t, cause I think the group was actually a crochet group and she hadn’t crocheted in like 10 years. And so she needed to kind of brush up on her crochet skills a little bit, but she was still down for it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:17:03] And what do you think about the part about being like an enthusiastic regular, like giving someone your number and trying to hang out soon? How does that feel?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:17:14] It feels intimidating, but I think it’s an important part of making the actual connection.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:28] So how did it go? Did Katie actually go to the craft night and what was her experience like?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:35] So I actually shared this advice with Katie like a month ago, and she had a very eventful month of March.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:45] I have tried a couple of different things and learned a lot about myself and my schedule and limitations and yeah, a lot of really good things came out of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:17:59] She didn’t wanna go into the crochet night cold turkey. So she signed up for a crochet class and she actually invited a coworker friend to go with her to this crochet class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:13] Is this a co-worker that she was interested in being friends with?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:19] Yeah I think this was a co-worker that she was already work friends with, but was also open to the idea of that friendship expanding beyond work. And so she invited her out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:29] And we learned how to crochet in an hour. It all came back to me pretty quickly, a little more challenging for her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:37] The demographic was about 20 years older than them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:18:42] I don’t hate that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:18:44] I don’t hate it either. But I think the vibe wasn’t vibing. It seemed a little too a little to far out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:18:52] Well, that’s probably not representative of some of the other clubs. Um, I thought, you know, maybe, um, I should look into some other activities also.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:00] So after the crochet class, Katie went to a pickleball class. She said she met some pretty cool people there. The teacher was great. The other participants in the class were really great, but she kind of chickened out and didn’t ask for contacts afterwards. And so there was no way to really follow up with those people again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:24] I wish I had gotten their information, because I would love to go and play with them again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:19:33] But then her coworker, kind of like as a little, you know, I came out with you, so you come out with me kind of thing, invited Katie out to a run club. And so Katie went out to this run club and she was feeling it. She went with her dog, you know which is great conversation starter. If you have a dog and you want to make friends take the dog out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:19:55] Right.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:19:57] My dog Sally is a great emotional support and she’s super friendly. And every time I bring her somewhere, people just come up and talk to me and pet her. And so that was a great way to just kind of get immersed in the group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:20:15] She did like the walk / run path, you know, and then afterwards, uh, people went out to a pub afterwards. It was like a run club where people go and go to a pub afterwards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:29] Uh, some people there that I could definitely see myself being friends with.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:36] And she talked to some folks there and she exchanged some contacts. So that was really successful and she definitely sees herself going back out to the Run Club.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:20:49] I’m feeling very proud of Katie right now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:20:51] Me too, me too. Katie really did her thing and that’s just like the tip of the iceberg. She did so many other things. One thing that Katie talked about wanting in her life was spontaneity, right? Someone who she could just hit up last minute, be like. I’m gonna go, do you wanna do this thing with me? But the other side of that is also being up for doing stuff yourself, right? Like being up for other people’s spontaneous invites. And so her kids do theater. And so there’s a group of theater parents that see each other at theater events, don’t usually hang out outside of that, but are loosely connected on social media. And one of the theater parents posted one night, I have this really delicious cake. Does anybody wanna come eat it with me, a carrot cake? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:21:38] And I just said, yeah, I’d love to. And so I went over that night and a couple of other theater friends were there too. And so it was a really cool like impromptu get together.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:21:55] She wasn’t the only one there. A few other people showed up and she happened to have some, you know, extra tickets to her daughter’s play. And so she invited people out and then she got to hang out with them again. And so, she’s really just been, you now, firing on all cylinders really and just trying all sorts of things to try to make some connections and it’s really been panning out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:22:20] You know, just assuming that people are busy isn’t always correct and sometimes it’s cool to try to do things spontaneously.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:26] And something really interesting Katie told me is that through this process, this challenge, she ended up telling a lot of people about it. And she was like, that’s actually really powerful too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:38] I think a lot of times people might think that you already have your friendship circle and when they know that you are like actively looking to expand and do things with other people, then they are more welcome.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:22:54] I was mentioning earlier, she’s been hanging out a lot with her coworker. That was an existing connection in her life. And I think one thing that she’s also been leaning into, also like the theater parent, is the people who are already there. Sometimes we take for granted the people that are already in our life. We think, oh, they’re too busy, they’re to this, they are to whatever.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:23:15] They’re too far away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:23:16] They’re too far away — too far way, too far away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:20] Looking at you, Jessica Kariisa.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:22] Listen, Vallejo San Jose. People do it all the time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:23:24] I guess overall, what has changed for Katie? Does she just have like hella friends now?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:33] You know, I don’t think Katie would say she has hella friends now, but I think what was interesting, talking to Katie, like listening to her first voice note and why we wanted to talk to her. It just seemed like she was kind of in a place where she felt like she didn’t know what to do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:53] Actually, March has been such a fun month. It’s been busy. My house is a mess because I’ve been going out a lot more.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:23:59] Talking to her now, it just feels like all of a sudden where a bunch of doors felt shut, now a bunch doors feel open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Barrow \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[00:24:08] I’m just looking forward to being out more, being involved in the community, meeting new people and maybe even starting a craft group at my house.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:24:27] I’m curious, Jessica, what takeaways you have from your reporting, and what takeaways do you have around what actually works?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> [00:24:36] You just have to keep showing up. You know, I think you just have to keep show up and I’ve seen this in my personal life too. Where you go out to whatever event, you think, oh my gosh, I’m just gonna click with everybody and you come back and you’re like, that sucked. And what do you do after that? You keep showing. Whether it’s maybe that same event because there’s something worthwhile there, or you try a different event, or you just go for walks in your neighborhood every day. Going for walks to my neighborhood every day, I actually got to know my neighbors. It took about a year, but it still happened. You never know where those connections are gonna come from and how they’re gonna develop, but they will develop and they will come. And that’s definitely like something to look forward to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ericka Cruz Guevarra:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well Jessica Kariisa it was such a pleasure having you on this side of the microphone. Thank you so much for doing this and for sharing your reporting with us. I really appreciate you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jessica Kariisa:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, thank you so much for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Ericka Cruz Guevarra and Jessica Kariisa with The Bay. If you like what you heard be sure to subscribe to their show – it’s a great way to keep up with local news in a way that helps you to really, truly understand it. Find The Bay wherever you listen!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Bay is made by: Alan Montecillo, Jessica Kariisa and Ericka Cruz Guevarra. On the Bay Curious side it’s Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price. With support from Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven Lindsey. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ECG: You can join the thousands of everyday listeners who help power shows like The Bay by becoming a KQED member. Which you can do at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Now go make a friend!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "stunning-archival-photos-of-the-1906-earthquake-and-fire",
"title": "Stunning Archival Photos of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This article first published April 18, 2024. We are republishing in honor of the 120th anniversary of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, many San Franciscans awoke at 5:13 a.m. to feel the earth shaking. An estimated 7.9 earthquake rocked the San Andreas fault, causing the immediate collapse of many buildings in San Francisco’s downtown. That, in turn, began a fire that quickly spread throughout the city. It was a momentous day in the history of the Bay Area. Crucial records were lost in the blaze, and the event marked a dividing line in the historical record — pre- and post-quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every year, San Franciscans gather early in the morning at the corner of Kearny and Market streets to commemorate the event. People dress up in period costumes, trying to embody the historic moment. City leaders use the anniversary as an opportunity to remind citizens about earthquake preparedness and to celebrate first responders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell grew up in Berkeley and learned all the lore around the 1906 earthquake, so she was surprised to see something \u003cem>new\u003c/em> while perusing a catalog from the Legion of Honor Museum. Staring back at her from the page was a photo of a group of African Americans dressed in turn-of-the-century clothing, watching from atop a hill as San Francisco burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983185\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 465px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983185\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of early San Francisco. A small group of African Americans turn to the camera as huge smoke plumes rise behind them.\" width=\"465\" height=\"649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg 465w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped-160x223.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 465px) 100vw, 465px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A group of African American San Franciscans watch the fire advance from Clay Street in 1906. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">UC Berkeley Bancroft Library\u003c/a>/Photographer: Arnold Genthe )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake,” Allison said. “I know many people came over to the East Bay to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because you couldn’t probably, as a nonwhite person, go to the Claremont Hotel and say, ‘I’d like a suite,’ at that time. The discrimination was deep.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew that Black people had been settling in San Francisco since before the Gold Rush but had never before given much thought to how the discrimination common at the time might have affected the community’s ability to recover, access aid and rebuild after the 1906 quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they reestablished themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before the Quake\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133093?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=e7446cdca8edd82a35cf&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983203\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg\" alt=\"Sepia toned photo of a nearly flattened San Francisco from 1906.\" width=\"600\" height=\"454\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured-160x121.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">View looking down California Street after the earthquake and fire of 1906. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>By 1906, many Black San Franciscans had already begun moving to the East Bay in search of more space, fewer restrictions and less expensive housing. Those who stayed in San Francisco lived in neighborhoods all over the city. Like other groups that immigrated to California during the Gold Rush, early Black settlers here were mostly single men who tended to live in hotels downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while societal norms were a bit looser in the fledgling city, there was still plenty of racism, especially when it came to employment. The best, most skilled jobs were reserved for white people, while Black residents struggled to find the most menial work. Accounts from the time describe jobs like errand runners, elevator operators, valets and hotel workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217449?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=1#birds_eye_container\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two grand buildings collapsing.\" width=\"600\" height=\"482\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906-160x129.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Grand Hotel (left) and Palace Hotel on fire as carriages go by. Some of the better jobs Black San Franciscans could find at the turn of the 20th century were in hotels like these, where they could earn tips. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When the Trans-Pacific Railroad was built and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11910890/how-oaklands-16th-street-train-station-helped-build-west-oakland-and-the-modern-civil-rights-movement\">Southern Pacific Railroad opened a terminus in Oakland,\u003c/a> more jobs for Black people became available working on the trains and in the station. That was another reason many families chose to relocate to Oakland. A community had started to thrive in West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Life Immediately After\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 1906 earthquake and fire were catastrophic for all San Franciscans. And, as often happens in a crisis, people pulled together in the aftermath to help one another and to rebuild the city. It’s estimated that 80% of San Francisco was destroyed in the fire, and 200,000 people — rich and poor alike — were made homeless overnight. People of all backgrounds waited in long lines for basic supplies and sustenance, which added to the equalizing effect immediately after the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133547?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6e0cba7e67868ea50c84&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=43&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of weary people waiting in line with empty containers.\" width=\"600\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines-160x119.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After the 1906 earthquake, San Franciscans of all types had to wait in lines for basic necessities. \u003ccite>(San Francisco HIstory Center/The San Francisco Public LIbrary)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Artist-in-residence at the San Francisco Public Library, tanea lunsford lynx, discovered \u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A48483\">a trove of oral histories from African Americans at the turn of the 20th century\u003c/a> and a few photos depicting Black San Franciscans during the earthquake and fire. tanea is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, so their roots go deep here, but they’d never seen or heard anything like this before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been photo proof that I’d seen,” they said. “And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>tanea was inspired to create an exhibit that looks at how the oral history of one man, Aurelious Alberga, speaks to San Francisco’s present moment. Her poetry and interpretation are up on \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">a website she created called “We Were Here.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below are excerpts of first-person accounts from Black San Franciscans who lived through the 1906 earthquake and fire. Their oral histories are archived at the San Francisco Public Library’s History Center in a collection entitled “\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qqXrCJ6PLruKXKK8FVA8XA?domain=oac.cdlib.org\">Afro-Americans in San Francisco prior to World War II Oral history project records\u003c/a>.” The histories were recorded in 1978 by Dr. Albert Broussard, author of \u003cem>Black San Francisco: The Struggle for Racial Equality in the West, 1900–1954\u003c/em>. The work was co-sponsored by the \u003ca href=\"http://www.sfaahcs.org/\">San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983193\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983193\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young black man.\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-800x811.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-1020x1034.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-160x162.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young Aurelious Alberga (1884–1988)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Aurelious Alberga was born in San Francisco in 1884. He was a young man when the earthquake hit, renting a room in a hotel at the corner of Commercial and Kearny streets. His father rented a separate room on the floor above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“The Quake loosened one side of the building and it collapsed. Outside the building were big windows, which years ago had iron shutters that pulled in and closed over a little balcony. When the bricks fell down, they forced the shutters closed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see. So I made enough noise and yelled out for my father. And he came down the best way he could and pulled away the rocks from the hallways to make the door wide enough so I could come out.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217420?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d274b845e2f43463a2a6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=10\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of nearly flattened buildings, with people walking by on the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"413\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People walk down the street, stopping to look at buildings that have been nearly flattened in the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“In the meantime, the city had started on fire. The water mains had broken, and they had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983197\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A209339?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=168622d42efe2632415f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=4&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=19\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic black and white photo of a fierce fire burning behind the remains of a building.\" width=\"600\" height=\"435\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906-160x116.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Buildings burning on Market Street after the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was a little girl when the earthquake hit. Her family lived in a two-story flat on Jones Street at Broadway. She remembers that the week the quake hit was Easter vacation from school, so she and her mother and siblings had taken the ferry across the Bay to stay with her grandparents in Oakland for the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s… I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.” —Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>When the aftershocks subsided, Elizabeth’s father wanted to go back to San Francisco to check on their house, but authorities were not letting people on the ferries back to the city. He had to get special permission to return to the devastated city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought \u003ci>that\u003c/i> book.” — Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth’s family stayed with her grandparents for several months after the earthquake until her father bought a plot of land in the Mission and built them a new house. She remembers many people in the Black community relying on friends and family for help during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217433?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of of a woman cooking on a cast iron stove in the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street-160x114.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People cooked in the streets or in their backyards after the quake because chimneys had fallen down, and it wasn’t safe to cook inside. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alfred Butler was a teenager living in Oakland when the quake struck. His father worked on the railroad and had more access to goods than most people in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He brought a lot of food out from Chicago to feed these people, White people all around the neighborhood. And the people all knew the Butlers. We had to eat in the backyard; we built a stove out of bricks to cook the meals on, because they wouldn’t allow you to cook in the house. The Earthquake had knocked all the chimneys down, so we had to eat in the backyard, fry and cook as best we could. People were thankful for that food too.” — Alfred Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983199\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A132890?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f31fecf33ee6f0edcd0d&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=5&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983199\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg\" alt=\"Rows of white tent set up in Golden Gate Park to house refugees from the 1906 earthquake.\" width=\"600\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Refugee camps like this one in Golden Gate Park were set up in parks throughout San Francisco to house the nearly 200,000 people who had become homeless overnight. The military managed the camps. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Butler visited San Francisco right after the earthquake and described it as mostly rubble. All the tall buildings had fallen down. But he said people were already cleaning up, and within a year, they’d started to rebuild. Many Black San Franciscans moved to the Western Addition after the earthquake, including his brother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A134029?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d11fd6bd47c32fd8a6e1&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=8&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983201\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two men shoveling debris in front of burned out buildings.\" width=\"600\" height=\"486\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is said that the bricks weren’t even cool before San Franciscans started rebuilding their city. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My brother, right after the earthquake, he rented a place on Post near Fillmore. He got a place. He was just lucky. After the Earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. Businesses moved down Fillmore Street. All the business on Fillmore Street started booming. That’s where all the life was.” — Albert Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>By 1915, just nine years after the devastating quake, San Francisco had largely been rebuilt. City leaders hosted the Panama-Pacific International Exposition to show the world it had recovered. While many people left San Francisco immediately after the quake, not too long after the 1915 World’s Fair, World War I began. A wave of new migrants came to the Bay Area then and again during World War II. The Black community in the Bay Area continued to grow in the East Bay, especially as ferry service to San Francisco improved so people could easily commute to the city for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB0eK5KO8k8\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every year on April 18th… at 5:13 in the morning…. San Franciscans gather at the corner of Market and Kearny Streets to remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Once again, you crazy folks have come together at this ungodly hour to remember and honor the memories of those hearty San Franciscans who survived being tossed from their beds 117 years ago this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>People come dressed up in period costumes…trying to inhabit the moment in 1906 when an earthquake with an estimated magnitude of 7.9 brought devastation to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Wednesday, April 18th, 1906 5:12 a.m. A great foreshock is felt throughout the San Francisco Bay area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>San Franciscans startled awake …only to see their city burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Fires rage and spread throughout the city. They are not stopped until 74 hours later. Many of San Francisco’s finest buildings collapse under the firestorms. Firefighters begin dynamiting buildings to create firebreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the fire kept leaping over the lines, traveling further west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>The Great Fire reaches Van Ness Avenue, which is 125ft wide, facing the decision to blow his city to pieces or watch it burn, Mayor Schmitz finally agrees to let the army create a massive firebreak in the hopes that it can stop the raging inferno. Friday, April 20th, 1906 5 a.m. The fire break at Venice finally holds and the westward progression of the inferno was halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It took more than three days to fully put the fire out. And then San Franciscans took stock. Nearly 80-percent of the city had burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>So if we can just have a moment of silence for those who died and those who helped with the city after the earthquake. (Silence) Let’s hear those sirens go. Here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> The Great Earthquake and fire of 1906 were devastating to everyone living in San Francisco at the time, including its several thousand Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell started wondering about how this community fared after the earthquake when she saw an old photo in a museum booklet. It showed a group of Black San Franciscans standing at the top of Clay Street, watching the fire burn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>And I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake. I know many people came over to the East Bay, and they simply got into boats and got over here, to try to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because, you couldn’t just probably as a nonwhite person go to the Claremont Hotel and say, I’d like a suite. At that time, the discrimination was deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they re-established themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: Stories and photos of the devastation wrought by the 1906 earthquake and fire are easy to find around San Francisco. But it’s less common to see or hear explicit references to how the Black community fared after the quake. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today on Bay Curious – just a few days shy of the 120th anniversary of the earthquake and fire – we’ll hear some first person accounts from those who survived it. This story first aired on our show in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of elevators at the library\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> You can find all kinds of cool stuff at the public library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I was thinking like, where do where does the ephemera live? Where do the things live that we can’t touch? What are the less visited things of the library?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>tanea lunsford lynx was recently an artist in residence at the San Francisco Public Library,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And then I found that there was an oral history project that had over 25, recorded oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She was \u003ci>transfixed\u003c/i> by the voices of Black Americans describing life in San Francisco at the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: yea, we were here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Now, tanea and I are standing in front of a display case on the third floor of the main branch …busy library life bustling around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I wanted folks to kind of happen upon it outside of the elevator. So when folks kind of get out there, struck by the photos that many of us have never seen. Of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Yeah. Some people have seen some of the photos, like of the fire and stuff like that. What’s different about these ones?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>These photos are different because they’re featuring black American folks who were here in San Francisco at the time of the 1906 earthquake. So you not only see the plume of the fires, the smoke in the back of the photos, but you also see, black San Franciscans at the forefront of the photos who are, like, dressed very beautifully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>My name is tanea lunsford lynx. I’m a writer and artist and educator. And fourth generation, like San Franciscan on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, these photos were a revelation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been like photo proof that I’d seen a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>As part of her residency at the library she began digging into the archives kept here and stumbled across an oral history recorded in 1978… of a man named Aurelius Alberga. A black man and a survivor of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I felt a kinship pretty quickly. Because something about. Alberga’s tone reminded me of my grandfather’s voice and something about the quality of the audio is…Very appropriate for the time that it was recorded. And so you can, like hear the hum of the machine. You can hear like background noises, like I was I was automatically seated in someone’s house, like listening to them tell their stories. And it was that kinship, that closeness, that sense of intimacy that I was looking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>October 22, 1884.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>Where were you born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>San Francisco\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>What about you parents. Where were they born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica. May mother was born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>He was very chill, for lack of a better word, about surviving that earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Historian Dr. Albert Broussard recorded this oral history when Alberga was in his 90s. On the day of the Great Earthquake, Alberga was in his early 20s, sleeping in a room he rented at the corner of Commercial and Kearny Streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>Aurelius Alberga is asleep in his apartment, which most likely was an SRO, single room occupancy. And he lived there, and his father lived in the apartment above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> My father was living there too. He had a room right upstairs directly over me. The Quake loosened and one side of the building collapsed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> He, like, yells for his father to know where he is, and his father comes down and helps him get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After escaping his small room, Alberga and his father go their separate ways. Alberga is worried about the man he works for who is blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> Alberga’s job at that time is being a chauffeur for a man he calls old Metzger, who’s a man that he works for, who’s, like, wealthy, who’s a blind man. And, he develops this relationship with kind of like, caring for him in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He lived on O’Farrell Street between Stockton and Powell. The whole front side of the hotel had fallen out into the streets and left exposed the rooms on that end. He was right there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> And so Alberga is like, oh my gosh, I hope he’s okay. And he gets up to Metzger’s apartment. And this man is sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He slept through it all, which was a blessing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After heroically saving Metzger’s life, he takes the old man to his mother’s house. Old Metzger is worried about savings he’s got stored in a safe downtown so he sends Alberga to retrieve the money. That errand takes Alberga all over the town and he watches as the city is destroyed. He recalls how the water mains were broken and firefighters struggled to contain the blaze.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> They had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> It blew my mind that he could recall with precision the exact intersections of where things happened in San Francisco, particularly as a man of, like, more than 90 years old. Because I’m also aware of, like, yes, this was a trauma that he survived. And he was able to recall with such clarity where these things happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Alberga had lost everything in the earthquake and fire, his home, all his possessions. He bounced around the city, staying with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> One of the things he did say was that folks across like, race and ethnicity were really welcoming to each other as far as, like, inviting folks to literally stay in their homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> I don’t think there were any people as friendly as the ole San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> No one as friendly as ‘ole San Franciscans. People were dragging their trunks down the road, nowhere to sleep…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> People were dragging their trunks along the street and someone would come along and help them. They’d take someone in their house they had never seen before in your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Folks opened up their homes to people they’d never seen before in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So that mutual aid and that care was something that Alberga named as something that was distinctly San Franciscan at the time, that it was a very friendly place at that time, particularly after this moment of crisis. And so that really stood out to me, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: We’re going to pause for a quick break, but when we return … more stories from 1906. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: When the 1906 earthquake and fire hit San Francisco, thousands of children were affected. Forming Vivid memories that would stay with them for most of their lives. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was just a little girl of nine-years-old when the earthquake struck. Her family lived in a flat in downtown San Francisco. But by 1906 many Black San Franciscans had relocated to the East Bay in search of more space and less expensive housing. Her grandmother lived in Oakland and Elizabeth had gone to stay with her for the Easter holidays, just before the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And my mother came over later in the week and brought the rest of the children. My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s. I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth remembers all the chimneys in Oakland falling down during the earthquake. As morning dawned, chaos reigned and authorities would not let Elizabeth’s father return to San Francisco on the ferry. He had to get special permission to go check on their house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought that book.” (chuckles).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Her father returned to Oakland where his family was — and their home on Jones street was consumed by the fire. Elizabeth says the family was lucky to be able to stay with her grandparents in Oakland until her father purchased a plot of land in the Mission to build them a new house. She says many Black San Franciscans tapped into networks of friends and family in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>The people from San Francisco came over here when their houses burned down and they took care of them over here. Red Cross, and they set up temporary housing and what have you for the people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Tent cities sprang up in parks around San Francisco…housing 200-thousand people who had become homeless overnight. People set up outdoor kitchens and cooked together. Tanea lunsford lynx documented Black San Franciscans among these scenes in her exhibit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>The first photo that we see is a photo of two young black people, children who are sitting in the grass and you see tents and you see a clothing line up behind them, and you see a little stove for cooking as well. And this is a campsite that was set up in Golden Gate Park, because folks had lost everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A PBS documentary called The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake paints a desolate picture of life in the aftermath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>Standing in bread lines, meat lines, soup lines, any kind of a line became the central activity of life. Everyone had to do it. Soldiers made sure nobody cheated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And anybody not standing in line, was put to work rebuilding the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>It was said that in many places, the debris was not even allowed to cool, and bricks were pitched from lots when still as warm as muffins. Volunteers on the cleanup crews took up the refrain in the damnedest, finest ruins I’d rather be a brick than live anywhere else but San Francisco. The great cleanup had begun. Thousands of standing walls were torn down. An estimated 6.5 billion bricks were carted away or cleaned of mortar to be reused in new buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>People who lived through these times remember it as a swift recovery. Alfred Butler was a Black teenager living in Oakland at the time of the earthquake. He took a mule and cart all the way down to San Jose and around the Bay in order to see what had happened to San Francisco for himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recalls seeing a lot of rubble, and the biggest buildings knocked down. But over the following months the recovery progressed quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>They built it up right away. In a year’s time, things were pretty well cleaned up. And then they started to build.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>At the turn of the 20th century, Black San Franciscans lived in neighborhoods scattered throughout San Francisco, but many single men were concentrated in hotels downtown…like Aurelius Alberga who we heard from earlier. Alfred Butler says after the earthquake, the Western Addition became the hub of Black life. That’s where his brother moved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>After the earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. All the businesses on Fillmore Street started booming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>San Franciscans came together after the quake and people from all walks of life helped one another in that moment of crises. But the oral histories of these Black Americans who survived it show that as the city rebuilt, it went back to the de facto racism that ruled it. Butler says good jobs were still reserved for white people, while Black people struggled to find menial ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Albert Butler: \u003c/b>It was hard to get a job. Negroes, we had a tough time getting a job. A menial job like washing windows or running errands or something like that. Running an elevator or something like that. It was hard to get a job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, the photos of San Franciscans living in tents, cooking outdoors, waiting in line for basic necessities are eerily similar to scenes on the streets of the city today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>When looking at these photos, I began to see the past, speaking to the future and the future, speaking to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And as a Black person, tanea sees echoes of \u003ci>her San Francisco\u003c/i> in the oral histories she combed through. A small Black community fighting to stay in a changing city. The devastation of displacement and loss. But also the love of this place and the tenacity to survive. It’s all too familiar. Her poem “We Were Here” is an ode to the Black community in San Francisco, which stretches from the Gold Rush to now. Here’s an excerpt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> We were here already, living fantastical lives, already saving the best for the present, already studying the contours of the city. The bay knew us. This ocean was salted with our knowing already. We knew the feeling of firm ground. Before the shaking. We knew stability. The ground knew the planting and rising of our feet like a dance. We were already sending for each other, extending a fishing hook south and pulling each other up with calloused hands. We were already spinning tales about this mass of fog. We were already making home here. \u003ci>(fades under)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was brought to us by Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> But of course, we were here, living in our signature ways. Of course, when the earth shifted, we went looking for who could be lost in the cracks. Of course it made for lore. Of course we were doing the fantastical feat like a dance. The earth cracked open and we kept time, an offering of our survival. We kept on living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades out\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> tanea’s exhibit is no longer on display at the library, but you can see all the photos she used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">read her writing on the project’s website\u003c/a>. You can find a link in our show notes or on baycurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the San Francisco History Center, part of the San Francisco Public Library for letting us use the oral histories in their archive. And to the San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society who co-sponsored the original oral history project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethan Toven-Lindsey:\u003c/b> Ethan Toven-Lindsey\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This article first published April 18, 2024. We are republishing in honor of the 120th anniversary of the 1906 Earthquake and Fire.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, many San Franciscans awoke at 5:13 a.m. to feel the earth shaking. An estimated 7.9 earthquake rocked the San Andreas fault, causing the immediate collapse of many buildings in San Francisco’s downtown. That, in turn, began a fire that quickly spread throughout the city. It was a momentous day in the history of the Bay Area. Crucial records were lost in the blaze, and the event marked a dividing line in the historical record — pre- and post-quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every year, San Franciscans gather early in the morning at the corner of Kearny and Market streets to commemorate the event. People dress up in period costumes, trying to embody the historic moment. City leaders use the anniversary as an opportunity to remind citizens about earthquake preparedness and to celebrate first responders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell grew up in Berkeley and learned all the lore around the 1906 earthquake, so she was surprised to see something \u003cem>new\u003c/em> while perusing a catalog from the Legion of Honor Museum. Staring back at her from the page was a photo of a group of African Americans dressed in turn-of-the-century clothing, watching from atop a hill as San Francisco burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983185\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 465px\">\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983185\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of early San Francisco. A small group of African Americans turn to the camera as huge smoke plumes rise behind them.\" width=\"465\" height=\"649\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped.jpg 465w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Black-San-Franciscans-Clay-St-cropped-160x223.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 465px) 100vw, 465px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A group of African American San Franciscans watch the fire advance from Clay Street in 1906. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://oac.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/hb087004q7/?brand=oac4\">UC Berkeley Bancroft Library\u003c/a>/Photographer: Arnold Genthe )\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake,” Allison said. “I know many people came over to the East Bay to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because you couldn’t probably, as a nonwhite person, go to the Claremont Hotel and say, ‘I’d like a suite,’ at that time. The discrimination was deep.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She knew that Black people had been settling in San Francisco since before the Gold Rush but had never before given much thought to how the discrimination common at the time might have affected the community’s ability to recover, access aid and rebuild after the 1906 quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they reestablished themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Before the Quake\u003c/h2>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983203\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133093?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=e7446cdca8edd82a35cf&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=46&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=9\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983203\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg\" alt=\"Sepia toned photo of a nearly flattened San Francisco from 1906.\" width=\"600\" height=\"454\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/Devestation-featured-160x121.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">View looking down California Street after the earthquake and fire of 1906. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>By 1906, many Black San Franciscans had already begun moving to the East Bay in search of more space, fewer restrictions and less expensive housing. Those who stayed in San Francisco lived in neighborhoods all over the city. Like other groups that immigrated to California during the Gold Rush, early Black settlers here were mostly single men who tended to live in hotels downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while societal norms were a bit looser in the fledgling city, there was still plenty of racism, especially when it came to employment. The best, most skilled jobs were reserved for white people, while Black residents struggled to find the most menial work. Accounts from the time describe jobs like errand runners, elevator operators, valets and hotel workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983189\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217449?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=1#birds_eye_container\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983189\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two grand buildings collapsing.\" width=\"600\" height=\"482\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/palace-hotel-1906-160x129.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Grand Hotel (left) and Palace Hotel on fire as carriages go by. Some of the better jobs Black San Franciscans could find at the turn of the 20th century were in hotels like these, where they could earn tips. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When the Trans-Pacific Railroad was built and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11910890/how-oaklands-16th-street-train-station-helped-build-west-oakland-and-the-modern-civil-rights-movement\">Southern Pacific Railroad opened a terminus in Oakland,\u003c/a> more jobs for Black people became available working on the trains and in the station. That was another reason many families chose to relocate to Oakland. A community had started to thrive in West Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Life Immediately After\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The 1906 earthquake and fire were catastrophic for all San Franciscans. And, as often happens in a crisis, people pulled together in the aftermath to help one another and to rebuild the city. It’s estimated that 80% of San Francisco was destroyed in the fire, and 200,000 people — rich and poor alike — were made homeless overnight. People of all backgrounds waited in long lines for basic supplies and sustenance, which added to the equalizing effect immediately after the earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A133547?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=6e0cba7e67868ea50c84&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=43&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=0\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of weary people waiting in line with empty containers.\" width=\"600\" height=\"448\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/food-lines-160x119.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">After the 1906 earthquake, San Franciscans of all types had to wait in lines for basic necessities. \u003ccite>(San Francisco HIstory Center/The San Francisco Public LIbrary)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Artist-in-residence at the San Francisco Public Library, tanea lunsford lynx, discovered \u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A48483\">a trove of oral histories from African Americans at the turn of the 20th century\u003c/a> and a few photos depicting Black San Franciscans during the earthquake and fire. tanea is a fourth-generation San Franciscan, so their roots go deep here, but they’d never seen or heard anything like this before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been photo proof that I’d seen,” they said. “And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>tanea was inspired to create an exhibit that looks at how the oral history of one man, Aurelious Alberga, speaks to San Francisco’s present moment. Her poetry and interpretation are up on \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">a website she created called “We Were Here.”\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Below are excerpts of first-person accounts from Black San Franciscans who lived through the 1906 earthquake and fire. Their oral histories are archived at the San Francisco Public Library’s History Center in a collection entitled “\u003ca href=\"https://url.us.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/qqXrCJ6PLruKXKK8FVA8XA?domain=oac.cdlib.org\">Afro-Americans in San Francisco prior to World War II Oral history project records\u003c/a>.” The histories were recorded in 1978 by Dr. Albert Broussard, author of \u003cem>Black San Francisco: The Struggle for Racial Equality in the West, 1900–1954\u003c/em>. The work was co-sponsored by the \u003ca href=\"http://www.sfaahcs.org/\">San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983193\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1170px\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983193\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young black man.\" width=\"1170\" height=\"1186\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious.jpg 1170w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-800x811.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-1020x1034.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/youngaurelious-160x162.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1170px) 100vw, 1170px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young Aurelious Alberga (1884–1988)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Aurelious Alberga was born in San Francisco in 1884. He was a young man when the earthquake hit, renting a room in a hotel at the corner of Commercial and Kearny streets. His father rented a separate room on the floor above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“The Quake loosened one side of the building and it collapsed. Outside the building were big windows, which years ago had iron shutters that pulled in and closed over a little balcony. When the bricks fell down, they forced the shutters closed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see. So I made enough noise and yelled out for my father. And he came down the best way he could and pulled away the rocks from the hallways to make the door wide enough so I could come out.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217420?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d274b845e2f43463a2a6&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=2&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=10\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of nearly flattened buildings, with people walking by on the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"413\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/buildings-fall-down-160x110.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People walk down the street, stopping to look at buildings that have been nearly flattened in the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“In the meantime, the city had started on fire. The water mains had broken, and they had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.” — Aurelious Alberga\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983197\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A209339?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=168622d42efe2632415f&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=4&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=19\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983197\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg\" alt=\"Dramatic black and white photo of a fierce fire burning behind the remains of a building.\" width=\"600\" height=\"435\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/dramatic-fire-1906-160x116.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Buildings burning on Market Street after the 1906 earthquake. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was a little girl when the earthquake hit. Her family lived in a two-story flat on Jones Street at Broadway. She remembers that the week the quake hit was Easter vacation from school, so she and her mother and siblings had taken the ferry across the Bay to stay with her grandparents in Oakland for the week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s… I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.” —Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>When the aftershocks subsided, Elizabeth’s father wanted to go back to San Francisco to check on their house, but authorities were not letting people on the ferries back to the city. He had to get special permission to return to the devastated city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought \u003ci>that\u003c/i> book.” — Elizabeth Fisher Gordon\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>Elizabeth’s family stayed with her grandparents for several months after the earthquake until her father bought a plot of land in the Mission and built them a new house. She remembers many people in the Black community relying on friends and family for help during this time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983198\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A217433?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=8b7fbf8474525807d377&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=1&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983198\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of of a woman cooking on a cast iron stove in the street.\" width=\"600\" height=\"428\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/cooking-street-160x114.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">People cooked in the streets or in their backyards after the quake because chimneys had fallen down, and it wasn’t safe to cook inside. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Alfred Butler was a teenager living in Oakland when the quake struck. His father worked on the railroad and had more access to goods than most people in the area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“He brought a lot of food out from Chicago to feed these people, White people all around the neighborhood. And the people all knew the Butlers. We had to eat in the backyard; we built a stove out of bricks to cook the meals on, because they wouldn’t allow you to cook in the house. The Earthquake had knocked all the chimneys down, so we had to eat in the backyard, fry and cook as best we could. People were thankful for that food too.” — Alfred Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983199\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A132890?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=f31fecf33ee6f0edcd0d&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=5&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=14\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983199\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg\" alt=\"Rows of white tent set up in Golden Gate Park to house refugees from the 1906 earthquake.\" width=\"600\" height=\"345\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/refugee-camp-GGP-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Refugee camps like this one in Golden Gate Park were set up in parks throughout San Francisco to house the nearly 200,000 people who had become homeless overnight. The military managed the camps. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Butler visited San Francisco right after the earthquake and described it as mostly rubble. All the tall buildings had fallen down. But he said people were already cleaning up, and within a year, they’d started to rebuild. Many Black San Franciscans moved to the Western Addition after the earthquake, including his brother.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11983201\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 600px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A134029?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=d11fd6bd47c32fd8a6e1&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=8&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=17\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11983201\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white photo of two men shoveling debris in front of burned out buildings.\" width=\"600\" height=\"486\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding.jpg 600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/rebuilding-160x130.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 600px) 100vw, 600px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is said that the bricks weren’t even cool before San Franciscans started rebuilding their city. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/The San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“My brother, right after the earthquake, he rented a place on Post near Fillmore. He got a place. He was just lucky. After the Earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. Businesses moved down Fillmore Street. All the business on Fillmore Street started booming. That’s where all the life was.” — Albert Butler\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>By 1915, just nine years after the devastating quake, San Francisco had largely been rebuilt. City leaders hosted the Panama-Pacific International Exposition to show the world it had recovered. While many people left San Francisco immediately after the quake, not too long after the 1915 World’s Fair, World War I began. A wave of new migrants came to the Bay Area then and again during World War II. The Black community in the Bay Area continued to grow in the East Bay, especially as ferry service to San Francisco improved so people could easily commute to the city for work.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/aB0eK5KO8k8'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/aB0eK5KO8k8'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Every year on April 18th… at 5:13 in the morning…. San Franciscans gather at the corner of Market and Kearny Streets to remember.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Once again, you crazy folks have come together at this ungodly hour to remember and honor the memories of those hearty San Franciscans who survived being tossed from their beds 117 years ago this morning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>People come dressed up in period costumes…trying to inhabit the moment in 1906 when an earthquake with an estimated magnitude of 7.9 brought devastation to the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Wednesday, April 18th, 1906 5:12 a.m. A great foreshock is felt throughout the San Francisco Bay area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>San Franciscans startled awake …only to see their city burning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>Fires rage and spread throughout the city. They are not stopped until 74 hours later. Many of San Francisco’s finest buildings collapse under the firestorms. Firefighters begin dynamiting buildings to create firebreaks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>But the fire kept leaping over the lines, traveling further west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>The Great Fire reaches Van Ness Avenue, which is 125ft wide, facing the decision to blow his city to pieces or watch it burn, Mayor Schmitz finally agrees to let the army create a massive firebreak in the hopes that it can stop the raging inferno. Friday, April 20th, 1906 5 a.m. The fire break at Venice finally holds and the westward progression of the inferno was halted.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It took more than three days to fully put the fire out. And then San Franciscans took stock. Nearly 80-percent of the city had burned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Sarlatte: \u003c/b>So if we can just have a moment of silence for those who died and those who helped with the city after the earthquake. (Silence) Let’s hear those sirens go. Here we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> The Great Earthquake and fire of 1906 were devastating to everyone living in San Francisco at the time, including its several thousand Black residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Allison Pennell started wondering about how this community fared after the earthquake when she saw an old photo in a museum booklet. It showed a group of Black San Franciscans standing at the top of Clay Street, watching the fire burn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>And I just started to think about that photograph and what would have happened after the earthquake. I know many people came over to the East Bay, and they simply got into boats and got over here, to try to set up an emergency situation over here. And so I thought, how did that work? Because, you couldn’t just probably as a nonwhite person go to the Claremont Hotel and say, I’d like a suite. At that time, the discrimination was deep.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She wanted to know more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Allison Pennell: \u003c/b>I’m interested to know what Black San Franciscans did to survive after the 1906 San Francisco earthquake and how they re-established themselves either in the East Bay or back in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: Stories and photos of the devastation wrought by the 1906 earthquake and fire are easy to find around San Francisco. But it’s less common to see or hear explicit references to how the Black community fared after the quake. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today on Bay Curious – just a few days shy of the 120th anniversary of the earthquake and fire – we’ll hear some first person accounts from those who survived it. This story first aired on our show in 2024.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sound of elevators at the library\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> You can find all kinds of cool stuff at the public library.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I was thinking like, where do where does the ephemera live? Where do the things live that we can’t touch? What are the less visited things of the library?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>tanea lunsford lynx was recently an artist in residence at the San Francisco Public Library,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And then I found that there was an oral history project that had over 25, recorded oral histories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>She was \u003ci>transfixed\u003c/i> by the voices of Black Americans describing life in San Francisco at the turn of the 20th century.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: yea, we were here.\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Now, tanea and I are standing in front of a display case on the third floor of the main branch …busy library life bustling around us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I wanted folks to kind of happen upon it outside of the elevator. So when folks kind of get out there, struck by the photos that many of us have never seen. Of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>Yeah. Some people have seen some of the photos, like of the fire and stuff like that. What’s different about these ones?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>These photos are different because they’re featuring black American folks who were here in San Francisco at the time of the 1906 earthquake. So you not only see the plume of the fires, the smoke in the back of the photos, but you also see, black San Franciscans at the forefront of the photos who are, like, dressed very beautifully.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>My name is tanea lunsford lynx. I’m a writer and artist and educator. And fourth generation, like San Franciscan on both sides.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, these photos were a revelation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So even though my family has a deep history here, and even though we knew we were here, there hadn’t been like photo proof that I’d seen a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>As part of her residency at the library she began digging into the archives kept here and stumbled across an oral history recorded in 1978… of a man named Aurelius Alberga. A black man and a survivor of the 1906 earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>And there certainly hadn’t been stories in our own voices about the experience of being here in 1906 and prior to that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>I felt a kinship pretty quickly. Because something about. Alberga’s tone reminded me of my grandfather’s voice and something about the quality of the audio is…Very appropriate for the time that it was recorded. And so you can, like hear the hum of the machine. You can hear like background noises, like I was I was automatically seated in someone’s house, like listening to them tell their stories. And it was that kinship, that closeness, that sense of intimacy that I was looking for.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>October 22, 1884.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>Where were you born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>San Francisco\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dr. Albert Broussard: \u003c/b>What about you parents. Where were they born?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga: \u003c/b>My father was born in Kingston, Jamaica. May mother was born in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>He was very chill, for lack of a better word, about surviving that earthquake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> Historian Dr. Albert Broussard recorded this oral history when Alberga was in his 90s. On the day of the Great Earthquake, Alberga was in his early 20s, sleeping in a room he rented at the corner of Commercial and Kearny Streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>Aurelius Alberga is asleep in his apartment, which most likely was an SRO, single room occupancy. And he lived there, and his father lived in the apartment above him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> My father was living there too. He had a room right upstairs directly over me. The Quake loosened and one side of the building collapsed. The doors in those days used to open out, and the door to my room was jammed shut — I couldn’t open it, you see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> He, like, yells for his father to know where he is, and his father comes down and helps him get out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After escaping his small room, Alberga and his father go their separate ways. Alberga is worried about the man he works for who is blind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> Alberga’s job at that time is being a chauffeur for a man he calls old Metzger, who’s a man that he works for, who’s, like, wealthy, who’s a blind man. And, he develops this relationship with kind of like, caring for him in different ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He lived on O’Farrell Street between Stockton and Powell. The whole front side of the hotel had fallen out into the streets and left exposed the rooms on that end. He was right there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> And so Alberga is like, oh my gosh, I hope he’s okay. And he gets up to Metzger’s apartment. And this man is sleeping.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> He slept through it all, which was a blessing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> After heroically saving Metzger’s life, he takes the old man to his mother’s house. Old Metzger is worried about savings he’s got stored in a safe downtown so he sends Alberga to retrieve the money. That errand takes Alberga all over the town and he watches as the city is destroyed. He recalls how the water mains were broken and firefighters struggled to contain the blaze.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> They had no water, and no hoses long enough to draw water from the Bay. There’s nothing that could stop it. It just went ahead.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> It blew my mind that he could recall with precision the exact intersections of where things happened in San Francisco, particularly as a man of, like, more than 90 years old. Because I’m also aware of, like, yes, this was a trauma that he survived. And he was able to recall with such clarity where these things happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Alberga had lost everything in the earthquake and fire, his home, all his possessions. He bounced around the city, staying with friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> One of the things he did say was that folks across like, race and ethnicity were really welcoming to each other as far as, like, inviting folks to literally stay in their homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> I don’t think there were any people as friendly as the ole San Franciscans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b> No one as friendly as ‘ole San Franciscans. People were dragging their trunks down the road, nowhere to sleep…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Aurelius Alberga:\u003c/b> People were dragging their trunks along the street and someone would come along and help them. They’d take someone in their house they had never seen before in your life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Folks opened up their homes to people they’d never seen before in their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>So that mutual aid and that care was something that Alberga named as something that was distinctly San Franciscan at the time, that it was a very friendly place at that time, particularly after this moment of crisis. And so that really stood out to me, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: We’re going to pause for a quick break, but when we return … more stories from 1906. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sponsor message\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: When the 1906 earthquake and fire hit San Francisco, thousands of children were affected. Forming Vivid memories that would stay with them for most of their lives. \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon was just a little girl of nine-years-old when the earthquake struck. Her family lived in a flat in downtown San Francisco. But by 1906 many Black San Franciscans had relocated to the East Bay in search of more space and less expensive housing. Her grandmother lived in Oakland and Elizabeth had gone to stay with her for the Easter holidays, just before the quake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And my mother came over later in the week and brought the rest of the children. My father came over on the last boat before the earthquake hit, to my grandmother’s. I was so sure it was my fault because I didn’t kneel that night before I said prayers. I got into bed and then said my prayers because it was so cold. But I didn’t tell anyone that it was my fault the earthquake came.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Elizabeth remembers all the chimneys in Oakland falling down during the earthquake. As morning dawned, chaos reigned and authorities would not let Elizabeth’s father return to San Francisco on the ferry. He had to get special permission to go check on their house.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>And when he went over, he found out there was a whole lot of damage. But he was able to get a suitcase and put some things in it, never dreaming the fire would reach there, you know. And some of the things he brought were so insignificant my mother thought. I’ll never forget her repeating, “he brought that book.” (chuckles).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Her father returned to Oakland where his family was — and their home on Jones street was consumed by the fire. Elizabeth says the family was lucky to be able to stay with her grandparents in Oakland until her father purchased a plot of land in the Mission to build them a new house. She says many Black San Franciscans tapped into networks of friends and family in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Elizabeth Fisher Gordon: \u003c/b>The people from San Francisco came over here when their houses burned down and they took care of them over here. Red Cross, and they set up temporary housing and what have you for the people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Tent cities sprang up in parks around San Francisco…housing 200-thousand people who had become homeless overnight. People set up outdoor kitchens and cooked together. Tanea lunsford lynx documented Black San Franciscans among these scenes in her exhibit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>The first photo that we see is a photo of two young black people, children who are sitting in the grass and you see tents and you see a clothing line up behind them, and you see a little stove for cooking as well. And this is a campsite that was set up in Golden Gate Park, because folks had lost everything.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>A PBS documentary called The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake paints a desolate picture of life in the aftermath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>Standing in bread lines, meat lines, soup lines, any kind of a line became the central activity of life. Everyone had to do it. Soldiers made sure nobody cheated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And anybody not standing in line, was put to work rebuilding the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>The Great 1906 San Francisco Earthquake Narration: \u003c/b>It was said that in many places, the debris was not even allowed to cool, and bricks were pitched from lots when still as warm as muffins. Volunteers on the cleanup crews took up the refrain in the damnedest, finest ruins I’d rather be a brick than live anywhere else but San Francisco. The great cleanup had begun. Thousands of standing walls were torn down. An estimated 6.5 billion bricks were carted away or cleaned of mortar to be reused in new buildings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>People who lived through these times remember it as a swift recovery. Alfred Butler was a Black teenager living in Oakland at the time of the earthquake. He took a mule and cart all the way down to San Jose and around the Bay in order to see what had happened to San Francisco for himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He recalls seeing a lot of rubble, and the biggest buildings knocked down. But over the following months the recovery progressed quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>They built it up right away. In a year’s time, things were pretty well cleaned up. And then they started to build.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>At the turn of the 20th century, Black San Franciscans lived in neighborhoods scattered throughout San Francisco, but many single men were concentrated in hotels downtown…like Aurelius Alberga who we heard from earlier. Alfred Butler says after the earthquake, the Western Addition became the hub of Black life. That’s where his brother moved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alfred Butler: \u003c/b>After the earthquake, everybody moved on Fillmore Street. All the businesses on Fillmore Street started booming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>San Franciscans came together after the quake and people from all walks of life helped one another in that moment of crises. But the oral histories of these Black Americans who survived it show that as the city rebuilt, it went back to the de facto racism that ruled it. Butler says good jobs were still reserved for white people, while Black people struggled to find menial ones.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Albert Butler: \u003c/b>It was hard to get a job. Negroes, we had a tough time getting a job. A menial job like washing windows or running errands or something like that. Running an elevator or something like that. It was hard to get a job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music transition\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>For Tanea, the photos of San Franciscans living in tents, cooking outdoors, waiting in line for basic necessities are eerily similar to scenes on the streets of the city today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx: \u003c/b>When looking at these photos, I began to see the past, speaking to the future and the future, speaking to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>And as a Black person, tanea sees echoes of \u003ci>her San Francisco\u003c/i> in the oral histories she combed through. A small Black community fighting to stay in a changing city. The devastation of displacement and loss. But also the love of this place and the tenacity to survive. It’s all too familiar. Her poem “We Were Here” is an ode to the Black community in San Francisco, which stretches from the Gold Rush to now. Here’s an excerpt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> We were here already, living fantastical lives, already saving the best for the present, already studying the contours of the city. The bay knew us. This ocean was salted with our knowing already. We knew the feeling of firm ground. Before the shaking. We knew stability. The ground knew the planting and rising of our feet like a dance. We were already sending for each other, extending a fishing hook south and pulling each other up with calloused hands. We were already spinning tales about this mass of fog. We were already making home here. \u003ci>(fades under)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That story was brought to us by Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>tanea lunsford lynx:\u003c/b> But of course, we were here, living in our signature ways. Of course, when the earth shifted, we went looking for who could be lost in the cracks. Of course it made for lore. Of course we were doing the fantastical feat like a dance. The earth cracked open and we kept time, an offering of our survival. We kept on living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music fades out\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> tanea’s exhibit is no longer on display at the library, but you can see all the photos she used and \u003ca href=\"https://www.tanealunsfordlynx.com/wewerehere\">read her writing on the project’s website\u003c/a>. You can find a link in our show notes or on baycurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Special thanks to the San Francisco History Center, part of the San Francisco Public Library for letting us use the oral histories in their archive. And to the San Francisco African-American Historical and Cultural Society who co-sponsored the original oral history project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Our show is made by:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>Katrina Schwartz\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale: \u003c/b>Christopher Beale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Katherine Monahan\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>and me, Olivia Allen Price. Additional support from:\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>Jen Chien: \u003c/b>Jen Chien\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Springer: \u003c/b>Katie Springer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Maha Sanad: \u003c/b>Maha Sanad\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ethan Toven-Lindsey:\u003c/b> Ethan Toven-Lindsey\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Crowd:\u003c/b> And the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be back next week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "from-anza-to-yorba-the-messy-history-behind-the-richmond-and-sunsets-street-names",
"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names",
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"headTitle": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond’s and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
"description": "Streets on San Francisco’s west side appear to follow an alphabetical naming convention with Spanish names. But look closer, and there are some missing letters. Why?",
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"headline": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "cambrian-park-plaza-a-beloved-san-jose-strip-mall-awaits-a-new-future",
"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future",
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"headTitle": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.[aside postID=news_12078615 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260320-KOGURACOMPANY00242_TV-KQED.jpg'] But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"headTitle": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "The Bay Area's Famous Redwood Trees Are Struggling",
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"headTitle": "The Bay Area’s Famous Redwood Trees Are Struggling | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article originally published in June of 2023. It has been lightly updated for republication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were many things Bay Curious listener Julie Menter loved about her Oakland home when she first moved there in 2017. Chief among them were the three towering redwood trees in her backyard, which Menter estimated had been there longer than the house itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, one of the trees started to look sick. It had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite Menter watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. So Menter and her husband decided it had to come down. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so sad,” she said. “And I think it’s sad both for the tree because they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, ‘Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s noticed, not just in her backyard but all around Oakland, redwood trees are looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Magical trees\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Menter’s question, we first have to understand why redwood trees are unique to the Bay Area. Coast redwoods — which we’re focusing on for this story — stretch up and down the Northern California coast and grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult,” said Deborah Zierten, an educator with \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/\">Save the Redwoods League\u003c/a>. “This was the place that I would hike to clear my head. So it is a very special place for me here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The quiet, cool, almost prehistoric feel of these redwood forests have provided solace to humans for millennia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time, however. Now they live primarily along the coast between Big Sur and the California-Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953536\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival photo shows loggers standing around and laying in a notch cut into a massive redwood tree as the prepare to fell it. The tree may be around 20 feet in diameter and of unknown height, though it could be as tall as 300 feet.\" width=\"800\" height=\"610\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-1020x778.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg 1160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In the early 20th century, redwoods endured a period of intense logging activity. Most of the redwoods you see today have grown since that period, and pale in comparison to the massive size of the trees that once stood along the California coast. \u003ccite>(Ericson Collection/Humboldt State University Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Their range used to extend more broadly, until they endured a period of \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/about-us/mission-history/redwoods-timeline/\">severe logging in the late 19th century\u003c/a>. After the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Millions of trees were logged and used to build homes and other structures around the Bay Area. Most of the trees here now have grown since then. Even by conservative estimates we’ve lost about 90 percent of what once was. Now, California is down to about 100,000 acres of old growth redwood forest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps their most identifiable feature — besides their reddish-brown bark — is their height. They can grow up to 300 feet tall, a feat that requires some teamwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down, is that they help each other,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their shallow but wide root systems allow them to grow to be the tallest trees on the planet. And the intertwining of their roots helps them exchange nutrients with one another. Their trunks can grow to be immense, up to nearly 30 feet in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Redwoods can live a very long time, too. In fact, some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/shirley/sec11.htm\">oldest coastal redwoods\u003c/a> today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those stands of \u003ca href=\"https://sempervirens.org/news/old-growth-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters/#:~:text=What%20Is%20The,redwood%E2%80%99s%20highest%20reaches.\">old-growth redwoods\u003c/a>, which now account for only 5% of all redwood trees, can \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26107#\">store more carbon\u003c/a> than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So, often you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953639\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953639\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg\" alt=\"A child dressing in a redwood tree costumes stands next to a woman in a bright blue sweater. In the background, a redwood forest is visible.\" width=\"800\" height=\"845\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1020x1077.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-160x169.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1455x1536.jpg 1455w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1940x2048.jpg 1940w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1920x2027.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Deborah Zierten teaches a group of fifth graders about redwood trees in Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park in Oakland. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Redwoods prefer cool, moist climates, which is why they’re now primarily found in Northern California. In the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees rely on another iconic California phenomenon: coastal fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water,” Zierten said. “Then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve adapted to other characteristics of this region, including wildfires. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fires, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods State Park near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11835124/some-good-news-many-of-big-basins-ancient-redwoods-appear-to-have-survived\">the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now many redwood forests — including 80% of the surviving old-growth trees — are protected either by state and local governments or nonprofits, like Zierten’s Save the Redwoods League.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>New challenges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s not just Menter’s imagination: Redwood trees are indeed struggling across the Bay Area.[emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]“If you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of brown foliage in the crowns of these trees,” said \u003ca href=\"https://ib.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/dawsont\">Todd Dawson\u003c/a>, an environmental scientist at UC Berkeley who has been studying redwoods for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason for that suffering is urbanization and the subsequent proliferation of concrete and pollution. Roadways and sidewalks, in particular, are impinging on redwoods’ root systems, essentially suffocating them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Concrete has] a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs,” said Dawson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to urbanization, climate change is wreaking havoc on redwood trees’ ideal growing conditions. Coastal fog, for example, upon which redwood trees rely for water, is on the decline. In fact, since the 1950s, Dawson said, fog has declined about 30% during the summertime, when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953610\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Tall, bright green redwood trees and ferns surround a hiking path. The air is misty and grey.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A foggy day in Joaquin Miller Park in the Oakland hills. In the summertime, redwoods ‘drink’ the coastal fog. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees — especially giant sequoias, another type of redwood that lives mostly in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees,” Dawson said. “It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to a lack of water, more intense fires are also affecting redwoods. Though they have adapted to fire over the centuries, they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and inadequate forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All in all, Dawson said redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches farther and farther into the wild, redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we’re going to see a patchier world,” Dawson said. “And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can we do?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As Menter asked, is there anything we can do to save the redwoods?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for backyard redwood trees, Dawson said irrigation might work, but it’s more of a Band-Aid solution because “the trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler, they like these moist, foggy summers,” he said, “and I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic, said Dawson, and that’s how we should approach solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way to help protect redwood forests is by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits, which Dawson said is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing, gigantic trees. There’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. So I’m really concerned about them and I’d love to see those forests protected in perpetuity,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you ever paused a moment, to fully take in a redwood tree? Stared up at its towering trunk. Cupping around a single ridge of its massive bark. Inhaling that warm, woody, slightly sweet scent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious listener Christy Dundon has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Back when I was in high school, just a long time ago, I worked for the Alameda Recreation and Park Department and we had a day camp and we would take kids up to the Redwood Regional Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The redwoods in the park now are mostly younger, second-growth redwoods – but there are signs left of the old growth redwoods that once stood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I remember showing them the stumps that were there, which were pretty big with usually trees in a circle around them … sometimes I’d have them lie down and it was, you know, its diameter was wider than they are tall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seeing these stumps got Christy wondering about when these trees were cut down and why. And also how many redwood forests once stood in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would love to know how extensive it was, what, I mean, did they just somebody got the idea this is where we’re going to get our lumber, and then how much was actually cut down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> For this story on old growth redwoods, we called up an old friend, Daniel Potter. Hi, Daniel!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, hi!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Daniel has done a few stories for us on natural history and trees… And he even wrote a bit on redwoods for the Bay Curious book. (which, ahem, is still available wherever books are sold.) So Daniel, redwoods. They come in a few varieties.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right. They’re a phenomenon almost exclusive to California. By that I mean there are three species—a somewhat shorter one from central China—and then the two familiar to Californians. Inland, we have the massive Sierra redwoods, also known as giant sequoias, and the kind we’ll be focusing on today, which is actually even taller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s the coast redwood, or the one a lot of folks just call… redwoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The scientific name is Sequoia sempervirens. These trees can grow taller than the Statue of Liberty, including the pedestal and torch. Taller than a football field is long. And they can live around 2,000 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And true to their name, you tend to find them along the coast, in the fog belt, from Monterey County up to around the Oregon border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of my favorite Bay Area spots for wow’ing out-of-towners with them has always been Muir Woods, in Marin County. That’s one of the few places in the region where people left old redwoods standing in the last few centuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So there were once more? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So many more! Logging of the redwoods started long before the Gold Rush, in the time of Spanish settlers and Russian traders… but the Gold Rush really kicked it into high gear. For 19th-century people building a city like San Francisco in a hurry, old redwood was ideal. In his book Trees in Paradise, historian Jared Farmer writes “it was easy to work with, hard to wreck. No other lumber matched its combination of lightness, evenness, and durability.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In addition to the stumps Christy saw, you also see little hints of this logging history around. ..Like down on the Peninsula, where you’ll find ‘Redwood City.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes! Sawyers would cut down redwoods on the east side of the Santa Cruz mountains, and use the port there to float that wood up toward a growing San Francisco. In his book, Farmer writes “by the mid 1850s, San Francisco had exhausted the easy-to-reach redwood, including pocket stands in the Berkeley Hills.” Loggers then worked their way north up the coast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, let’s fast forward to after the 1906 earthquake and fire. The city is devastated, people need to rebuild, concrete and steel aren’t yet ubiquitous for construction. What happens? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People cut down even more trees. They constructed tens of thousands of buildings in the decade after the quake, almost all of them with wood frames. Redwood was the rule—literally. Officials believed using redwood had kept the fire from being even worse, so afterward, builders had to get a permit to use anything else. The demand was epic, on the order of hundreds of millions of square feet, an inch thick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So our question-asker wanted some sense of what was lost here. And it sounds like… a lot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, exactly how much depends a little on whether you’re just counting the heavy stands of redwoods, like the awesome cathedral stands up toward the North Coast, or also the spots where they’re more mixed in with other trees. But ballpark, before the Gold Rush, there were 1 or 2 million acres of old growth redwood forests, whereas now we’re down to less than 100 thousand acres. So even by a conservative estimate, we’ve lost about 90% of what once was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 90%! And most of it now makes up the skeleton of San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it’s a weird way to think about it, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well… on the bright side, at least there’s still some standing for us to visit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah! My wife and I did the iconic California road trip for our honeymoon a few years ago, and visiting the redwoods up along the Avenue of the Giants was sublime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Mm! Daniel Potter… Longtime friend of the show, now making a podcast called Bug Note about the wiggly, wild, weird world of bugs. Find it on YouTube. Daniel – thank you as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, a pleasure as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return a deep dive on what makes Coast Redwoods so special, and how they’re fairing in the age of climate change. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have received a bevy of listener questions about redwoods over the years. One came from Julie Menter. She and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For this next story, we’re spending more time with California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED’s Dana Cronin takes it from here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of children in a forest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning students!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Students:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A student’s hand shoots up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree in the whole entire world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Magical sounding music\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music in \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system. And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie, regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whimsical music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. We are a member-supported public media station and we really need your help. Give today at KQED.org/donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Northern California's redwood forests are world-renowned. But some of these spectacularly tall and long-lived trees aren't doing as well as they once were.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article originally published in June of 2023. It has been lightly updated for republication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were many things Bay Curious listener Julie Menter loved about her Oakland home when she first moved there in 2017. Chief among them were the three towering redwood trees in her backyard, which Menter estimated had been there longer than the house itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, one of the trees started to look sick. It had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite Menter watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. So Menter and her husband decided it had to come down. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so sad,” she said. “And I think it’s sad both for the tree because they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, ‘Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s noticed, not just in her backyard but all around Oakland, redwood trees are looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Magical trees\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Menter’s question, we first have to understand why redwood trees are unique to the Bay Area. Coast redwoods — which we’re focusing on for this story — stretch up and down the Northern California coast and grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult,” said Deborah Zierten, an educator with \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/\">Save the Redwoods League\u003c/a>. “This was the place that I would hike to clear my head. So it is a very special place for me here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The quiet, cool, almost prehistoric feel of these redwood forests have provided solace to humans for millennia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time, however. Now they live primarily along the coast between Big Sur and the California-Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953536\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival photo shows loggers standing around and laying in a notch cut into a massive redwood tree as the prepare to fell it. The tree may be around 20 feet in diameter and of unknown height, though it could be as tall as 300 feet.\" width=\"800\" height=\"610\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-1020x778.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg 1160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In the early 20th century, redwoods endured a period of intense logging activity. Most of the redwoods you see today have grown since that period, and pale in comparison to the massive size of the trees that once stood along the California coast. \u003ccite>(Ericson Collection/Humboldt State University Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Their range used to extend more broadly, until they endured a period of \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/about-us/mission-history/redwoods-timeline/\">severe logging in the late 19th century\u003c/a>. After the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Millions of trees were logged and used to build homes and other structures around the Bay Area. Most of the trees here now have grown since then. Even by conservative estimates we’ve lost about 90 percent of what once was. Now, California is down to about 100,000 acres of old growth redwood forest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps their most identifiable feature — besides their reddish-brown bark — is their height. They can grow up to 300 feet tall, a feat that requires some teamwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down, is that they help each other,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their shallow but wide root systems allow them to grow to be the tallest trees on the planet. And the intertwining of their roots helps them exchange nutrients with one another. Their trunks can grow to be immense, up to nearly 30 feet in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Redwoods can live a very long time, too. In fact, some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/shirley/sec11.htm\">oldest coastal redwoods\u003c/a> today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those stands of \u003ca href=\"https://sempervirens.org/news/old-growth-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters/#:~:text=What%20Is%20The,redwood%E2%80%99s%20highest%20reaches.\">old-growth redwoods\u003c/a>, which now account for only 5% of all redwood trees, can \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26107#\">store more carbon\u003c/a> than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So, often you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953639\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953639\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg\" alt=\"A child dressing in a redwood tree costumes stands next to a woman in a bright blue sweater. In the background, a redwood forest is visible.\" width=\"800\" height=\"845\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1020x1077.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-160x169.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1455x1536.jpg 1455w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1940x2048.jpg 1940w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1920x2027.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Deborah Zierten teaches a group of fifth graders about redwood trees in Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park in Oakland. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Redwoods prefer cool, moist climates, which is why they’re now primarily found in Northern California. In the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees rely on another iconic California phenomenon: coastal fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water,” Zierten said. “Then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve adapted to other characteristics of this region, including wildfires. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fires, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods State Park near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11835124/some-good-news-many-of-big-basins-ancient-redwoods-appear-to-have-survived\">the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now many redwood forests — including 80% of the surviving old-growth trees — are protected either by state and local governments or nonprofits, like Zierten’s Save the Redwoods League.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>New challenges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s not just Menter’s imagination: Redwood trees are indeed struggling across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“If you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of brown foliage in the crowns of these trees,” said \u003ca href=\"https://ib.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/dawsont\">Todd Dawson\u003c/a>, an environmental scientist at UC Berkeley who has been studying redwoods for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason for that suffering is urbanization and the subsequent proliferation of concrete and pollution. Roadways and sidewalks, in particular, are impinging on redwoods’ root systems, essentially suffocating them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Concrete has] a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs,” said Dawson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to urbanization, climate change is wreaking havoc on redwood trees’ ideal growing conditions. Coastal fog, for example, upon which redwood trees rely for water, is on the decline. In fact, since the 1950s, Dawson said, fog has declined about 30% during the summertime, when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953610\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Tall, bright green redwood trees and ferns surround a hiking path. The air is misty and grey.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A foggy day in Joaquin Miller Park in the Oakland hills. In the summertime, redwoods ‘drink’ the coastal fog. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees — especially giant sequoias, another type of redwood that lives mostly in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees,” Dawson said. “It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to a lack of water, more intense fires are also affecting redwoods. Though they have adapted to fire over the centuries, they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and inadequate forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All in all, Dawson said redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches farther and farther into the wild, redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we’re going to see a patchier world,” Dawson said. “And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can we do?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As Menter asked, is there anything we can do to save the redwoods?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for backyard redwood trees, Dawson said irrigation might work, but it’s more of a Band-Aid solution because “the trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler, they like these moist, foggy summers,” he said, “and I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic, said Dawson, and that’s how we should approach solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way to help protect redwood forests is by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits, which Dawson said is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing, gigantic trees. There’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. So I’m really concerned about them and I’d love to see those forests protected in perpetuity,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you ever paused a moment, to fully take in a redwood tree? Stared up at its towering trunk. Cupping around a single ridge of its massive bark. Inhaling that warm, woody, slightly sweet scent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious listener Christy Dundon has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Back when I was in high school, just a long time ago, I worked for the Alameda Recreation and Park Department and we had a day camp and we would take kids up to the Redwood Regional Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The redwoods in the park now are mostly younger, second-growth redwoods – but there are signs left of the old growth redwoods that once stood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I remember showing them the stumps that were there, which were pretty big with usually trees in a circle around them … sometimes I’d have them lie down and it was, you know, its diameter was wider than they are tall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seeing these stumps got Christy wondering about when these trees were cut down and why. And also how many redwood forests once stood in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would love to know how extensive it was, what, I mean, did they just somebody got the idea this is where we’re going to get our lumber, and then how much was actually cut down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> For this story on old growth redwoods, we called up an old friend, Daniel Potter. Hi, Daniel!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, hi!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Daniel has done a few stories for us on natural history and trees… And he even wrote a bit on redwoods for the Bay Curious book. (which, ahem, is still available wherever books are sold.) So Daniel, redwoods. They come in a few varieties.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right. They’re a phenomenon almost exclusive to California. By that I mean there are three species—a somewhat shorter one from central China—and then the two familiar to Californians. Inland, we have the massive Sierra redwoods, also known as giant sequoias, and the kind we’ll be focusing on today, which is actually even taller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s the coast redwood, or the one a lot of folks just call… redwoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The scientific name is Sequoia sempervirens. These trees can grow taller than the Statue of Liberty, including the pedestal and torch. Taller than a football field is long. And they can live around 2,000 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And true to their name, you tend to find them along the coast, in the fog belt, from Monterey County up to around the Oregon border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of my favorite Bay Area spots for wow’ing out-of-towners with them has always been Muir Woods, in Marin County. That’s one of the few places in the region where people left old redwoods standing in the last few centuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So there were once more? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So many more! Logging of the redwoods started long before the Gold Rush, in the time of Spanish settlers and Russian traders… but the Gold Rush really kicked it into high gear. For 19th-century people building a city like San Francisco in a hurry, old redwood was ideal. In his book Trees in Paradise, historian Jared Farmer writes “it was easy to work with, hard to wreck. No other lumber matched its combination of lightness, evenness, and durability.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In addition to the stumps Christy saw, you also see little hints of this logging history around. ..Like down on the Peninsula, where you’ll find ‘Redwood City.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes! Sawyers would cut down redwoods on the east side of the Santa Cruz mountains, and use the port there to float that wood up toward a growing San Francisco. In his book, Farmer writes “by the mid 1850s, San Francisco had exhausted the easy-to-reach redwood, including pocket stands in the Berkeley Hills.” Loggers then worked their way north up the coast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, let’s fast forward to after the 1906 earthquake and fire. The city is devastated, people need to rebuild, concrete and steel aren’t yet ubiquitous for construction. What happens? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People cut down even more trees. They constructed tens of thousands of buildings in the decade after the quake, almost all of them with wood frames. Redwood was the rule—literally. Officials believed using redwood had kept the fire from being even worse, so afterward, builders had to get a permit to use anything else. The demand was epic, on the order of hundreds of millions of square feet, an inch thick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So our question-asker wanted some sense of what was lost here. And it sounds like… a lot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, exactly how much depends a little on whether you’re just counting the heavy stands of redwoods, like the awesome cathedral stands up toward the North Coast, or also the spots where they’re more mixed in with other trees. But ballpark, before the Gold Rush, there were 1 or 2 million acres of old growth redwood forests, whereas now we’re down to less than 100 thousand acres. So even by a conservative estimate, we’ve lost about 90% of what once was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 90%! And most of it now makes up the skeleton of San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it’s a weird way to think about it, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well… on the bright side, at least there’s still some standing for us to visit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah! My wife and I did the iconic California road trip for our honeymoon a few years ago, and visiting the redwoods up along the Avenue of the Giants was sublime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Mm! Daniel Potter… Longtime friend of the show, now making a podcast called Bug Note about the wiggly, wild, weird world of bugs. Find it on YouTube. Daniel – thank you as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, a pleasure as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return a deep dive on what makes Coast Redwoods so special, and how they’re fairing in the age of climate change. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have received a bevy of listener questions about redwoods over the years. One came from Julie Menter. She and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For this next story, we’re spending more time with California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED’s Dana Cronin takes it from here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of children in a forest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning students!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Students:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A student’s hand shoots up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree in the whole entire world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Magical sounding music\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music in \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system. And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie, regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whimsical music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. We are a member-supported public media station and we really need your help. Give today at KQED.org/donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"info": "Political Breakdown is a new series that explores the political intersection of California and the nation. Each week hosts Scott Shafer and Marisa Lagos are joined with a new special guest to unpack politics -- with personality — and offer an insider’s glimpse at how politics happens.",
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"info": "Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? Each episode also includes a short fiction story generated by advanced AI GPT-4, serving as a thought-provoking springboard to speculate how humanity could leverage technology for good.",
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"info": "A two-time Peabody Award-winner, Radiolab is an investigation told through sounds and stories, and centered around one big idea. In the Radiolab world, information sounds like music and science and culture collide. Hosted by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich, the show is designed for listeners who demand skepticism, but appreciate wonder. WNYC Studios is the producer of other leading podcasts including Freakonomics Radio, Death, Sex & Money, On the Media and many more.",
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"info": "Created by The Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX, Reveal is public radios first one-hour weekly radio show and podcast dedicated to investigative reporting. Credible, fact based and without a partisan agenda, Reveal combines the power and artistry of driveway moment storytelling with data-rich reporting on critically important issues. The result is stories that inform and inspire, arming our listeners with information to right injustices, hold the powerful accountable and improve lives.Reveal is hosted by Al Letson and showcases the award-winning work of CIR and newsrooms large and small across the nation. In a radio and podcast market crowded with choices, Reveal focuses on important and often surprising stories that illuminate the world for our listeners.",
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"info": "Rightnowish digs into life in the Bay Area right now… ish. Journalist Pendarvis Harshaw takes us to galleries painted on the sides of liquor stores in West Oakland. We'll dance in warehouses in the Bayview, make smoothies with kids in South Berkeley, and listen to classical music in a 1984 Cutlass Supreme in Richmond. Every week, Pen talks to movers and shakers about how the Bay Area shapes what they create, and how they shape the place we call home.",
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"soldout": {
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