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"headTitle": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond’s and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.[aside postID=news_12074947 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/02/260221-SUNNYSIDECONSERVATORY00252_TV-KQED.jpg']In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Streets on San Francisco’s west side appear to follow an alphabetical naming convention with Spanish names. But look closer, and there are some missing letters. Why?",
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"title": "From Anza to Yorba: The Messy History Behind the Richmond's and Sunset’s Street Names | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\"> View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have gotten a lot of questions about street names in the western part of\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\"> San Francisco\u003c/a> — the Richmond and Sunset neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Why do the streets appear to follow an alphabetical pattern, only to break it often? Where do the names come from in the first place? Who chose them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answers are both more complicated (of course) and less logical than you might imagine. It all goes back — like so many things in San Francisco history — to the time right after the 1906 earthquake and fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, the primary means of communication was the mail. But delivering the mail to the correct recipient was a challenge because there were many repetitive street names or ones that were easy to confuse in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For example, there were four Church streets — basically, anytime someone built a church, they’d name the street adjacent “Church Street”. And three sections of the city were named with numerical values.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were numbered avenues out in the Richmond and Sunset, numerical streets downtown, and back then, the Bayview also went by numerical avenues, with “South” appended.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079487\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1602px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079487\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1602\" height=\"1180\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th.jpg 1602w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Balboa-24th-1536x1131.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1602px) 100vw, 1602px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Archival image of the Richmond District at Balboa and 32nd Avenue \u003ccite>(via Open SF History)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>ZIP codes had not been invented yet, so you can imagine the mess a mail carrier faced when trying to deliver a letter to 203 Church St. or 452 Fourth Ave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The post office was unhappy,” said John Freeman, an amateur historian and member of the Western Neighborhood Association. He wrote \u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/street-names.php\">several articles\u003c/a> about the history behind San Francisco street names. “We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets. So, it’s the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown since the 1850s.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1909, city leaders appointed a commission to come up with new names for the numbered avenues in both the western neighborhoods and the Bayview.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>In the Richmond and Sunset, the committee decided to honor the city’s Spanish heritage by naming streets after famous Spanish explorers or anyone who had an outsized influence in California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They planned for the names to go alphabetically from First Avenue (what’s now Arguello) out to 26th Avenue. Then the alphabet would start over, but the following 26 streets would be named for saints. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But when the proposal was put forward, outraged locals pushed back against the naming scheme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The country had just fought the Spanish-American War in the Philippines, and some residents found the idea of naming streets after Spaniards unpatriotic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suddenly it starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was so much opposition that the committee gave up the scheme. They settled on renaming “First Avenue” to “Arguello” and the street just before the beach “La Playa,” which means “the beach” in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079485\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079485\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1124\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1536x863.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1290352821-1200x675.jpg 1200w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Richmond District and Ocean Beach in San Francisco, CA \u003ccite>(Jason Doiy/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They left the numbered avenues, but used the alphabetical Spanish explorer idea for streets running east and west, instead. For some reason, residents didn’t oppose this slightly different approach. That’s how we got names like Anza, Balboa, and Cabrillo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But of course, nothing is simple. Even though they had generally settled on an alphabetical scheme that would extend out into the Sunset, there were already problems. First, the committee didn’t want to change the names of streets that extended out from downtown — like Geary, California and Sacramento streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why the alphabet starts mid-Richmond and goes south from there. “D Street” had already been renamed Fulton because it extended from downtown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Streets that would have been “E, F, and G” were taken up by Golden Gate Park, which had been developed but was still nascent. Once on the other side of the park, the pattern should have started up again with H street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You gotta realize this is 1909, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln,” Freeman said. “So they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079492\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1755px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079492 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1755\" height=\"1277\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a.jpg 1755w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-160x116.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/1909-map_a-1536x1118.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1755px) 100vw, 1755px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A map of San Francisco, circa 1909 \u003ccite>(Courtesy Carolyn Karis)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>H street was a prominent boulevard edging Golden Gate Park, so they decided, “We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Meanwhile, the Sunset residents had convened their own committee to come up with more “patriotic” names for Sunset streets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Irving Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Irving\">Washington Irving\u003c/a>, a writer. Judah Street is named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">Theodore Judah\u003c/a>, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He was the clever engineer, and nobody honored him for anything,” Freeman said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">Kirkham\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">Lawton \u003c/a>were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/a>, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079540\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079540\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"987\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-160x80.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/GettyImages-1400903691-1536x766.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Washington Irving, circa. 1860-1865. \u003ccite>(Photo by Heritage Art/Heritage Images/via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A\u003ca href=\"https://www.outsidelands.org/parkside-district.php\"> big development company \u003c/a>was already using the Spanish explorer naming convention, so the neighbors gave up fighting to change those names.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not many people lived that far out into the Sunset yet, anyway. Apart from the “Americanized” interlude from Lincoln to Kirkham, the pattern of Spanish explorers continued, with the exception of “X” and “Z.” X was going to be Xavier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, the committee ended up skipping an X-named street altogether when people claimed no one would be able to pronounce Xavier. Z street became Sloat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Logic kind of falls to the side,” Freeman said of the whole naming fiasco. “But it’s a good story because what they were trying to do didn’t work real well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"episode-transcript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> If you travel from north to south on the west side of San Francisco – through the Richmond District, across Golden Gate Park, all the way through the Sunset – you may notice the streets running east to west follow a naming convention.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza. Balboa. Cabrillo. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A … B… C… And further south.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Computerized voice: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Quintara. Rivera. Santiago. Taraval.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Q … R… S… T… They’re alphabetized! A to Z! Well, almost…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s no D and no E. There is a Fulton but then there’s no G or H. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Carolyn Karras. (Care-as)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I live in Ingleside Terraces in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She’s a librarian and she’s into San Francisco history. So when a friend asked her about why a few of the letters are missing, she was frustrated when the answer didn’t turn up in some of the usual places she thought to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>It just seems like the order should be complete once you start it, it should end up being complete. So what happened to those street names since it seemed to go from A to at least Y.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here with some answers for Carolyn is Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Olivia. I gotta say, I’m excited to answer this question because it’s my home turf. I grew up in the Richmond District and went to school in the Sunset and I’ve wondered about this naming situation too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, start at the beginning, when did San Francisco start naming it’s streets.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Always street names, but not always a lot of logic to the names. There were a lot of duplicates, which was confusing to people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Can you give me some examples of the kind of things that were confusing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, so there were 4 Church streets at one point. Any time there was a church, the locals would call the alley behind in Church Lane or Church way… you get the idea. But most confusing of all, there were three sets of ordinal numbered streets. Like today, there were the numbered Avenues out west, and the numbered streets downtown, but there were also numbered streets in the Bayview, those just had “South” appended to them. So, Bayview had 9th avenue South, for example.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It reminds me a lot of modern-day Washington D.C. If you get the cardinal direction wrong on the street name, you can wind up in the completely wrong place….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And remember, this was a time when people primarily communicated by post. The mail came several times a day…and postal codes had not been invented yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So confusing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then 1906 earthquake happens. Things are in shambles. But it’s also an opportunity to make some changes. I spoke to John Freeman about all this. He’s a retired high school teacher, amateur historian and life-long Richmond District resident. He says one group in particular was not happy with the street name situation in SF.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So the post office was unhappy. We’re rebuilding a lot of San Francisco. There’s new streets, there’s new widening of streets and all that kind of stuff. So the perfect time to go and attack a problem that had just grown like over, you know, since the 1850s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Right, so in 1909 they put together a committee of folks to look at this naming issue. It’s got a couple Board of Supervisors on it, a historian and someone from the post office. Pretty small group. And they’ve got this idea to rename the Richmond District avenues to honor San Francisco’s history…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This of course, was a time when the whole thing of Spanish, that time period of the development of California was very romanticized.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK, so like Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All explorers with some degree of connection to SF. And The idea, was to actually name all the ordinal streets using this scheme. So, First Avenue would become Arguello, second Balboa, third Cabrillo, etc. They’d do that all the way out to 26th and then they’d start over alphabetically, but add San or Santa. So, 27th Ave would have been San Antonio, 28th would become San Benito, etc.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s strange because the actual Anza, Balboa, Cabrillo streets run east west. And the avenues are still numbered even today. What happened.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John says the committee started sharing their ideas with the press and when residents of the Richmond and Sunset districts heard about it, they were pissed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It starts getting the ire of the locals who had community meetings and started saying, you know, we don’t want to be named after those lowlife Spaniards.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s harsh.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, well, xenophobia was alive and well back then too. But also, you have to remember in 1909 the Spanish-American war had just ended 10 years before. Of course, that was actually fought in the Philippines. And as a west coast port, San Francisco had a big role in that war. People here would have known folks fighting…it felt like recent history to many people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what happens with the whole naming conundrum then?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically, the committee backs off and says fine, we won’t change the names of the Avenues. To save face, they kept Arguello, which is basically First Avenue now. And they kept La Playa, the last name before the beach, which also means “beach” in Spanish. And then they used the Spanish name scheme going east west instead. Of course, they had to come up with a new A street because Arguello was already taken, so that’s how we got Anza.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Feeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Anza of course, he is definitely here. He explores the whole coast. He actually goes out and, you know, the only way he’s going to get through it, he went along to the actual ocean beach and then he comes inland and he did see as much as he possibly could. So he’s a legitimate early explorer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But, as Carolyn points out, they didn’t really follow the pattern going east west either. Why not?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Basically local politics. So, it had been agreed that any streets that extended out west from Downtown would not be changed. So, streets like California and Sacramento stayed the same. Geary Boulevard was sacrosanct. So this naming starts south of Geary. We get A, B, C and then what would have been D is actually “Fulton street.” That’s because it was a street extending from downtown, so they didn’t want to change it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since they had an F, they just kept going, except G was basically Golden Gate Park, which had been established in 1870, but was still nascent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That brings us to H street, which should have run next to the park on the south side. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it’s supposed to go all the way out to Sloat in alphabetical pattern. Well, h then this is eight nine, and we’re celebrating the 100th anniversary of the birth of Abraham Lincoln, so they’re naming all kinds of things after Abraham Lincoln. What a wonderful thing we’ll do away with those four little alleys down south of market that were named after Lincoln. And we’ll name this Grand Boulevard that is going to go alongside Golden Gate Park. We’ll take out the H and will make it Lincoln. So already the game is getting changed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">OK…but Irving, Judah, Kirkum, Lawton…also not Spanish names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Correct. This is where more local politics came into play. There was a very active group of residents in the inner Sunset who DID NOT want Spanish names. They wanted “American” names. So they lobbied hard for Irving…after washington Irving the writer. Judah…for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Judah\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theodore Judah\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a civil engineer largely responsible for the design and construction of the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Freeman:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He was the clever engineer and nobody honored him for anything.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Mexican_War_Journal_and_Letters_of_R.html?id=UzaRMQEACAAJ\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kirkham\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ware_Lawton\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Lawton \u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">were military officers and thus deemed appropriate by the neighborhood groups. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But after Lawton comes Moraga, named for \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Joaqu%C3%ADn_Moraga\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">José Joaquín Moraga\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, a Spanish explorer. So, we’re back to the pattern. What happened?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Development. The Parkside [Realty Company] owned a lot of land in the outer Sunset and they were developing plots to sell. They’d already started naming the streets in their section according to the proposed Spanish explorer scheme. So we basically have Spanish names all the way out to Y.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But there’s no X or Z street.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb> Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yep, more racism. X was supposed to Xavier Street, but the committee didn’t think anyone could pronounce it, so they just skipped it. And many of those other names aren’t actually Spanish explorers anyway. Taravel was a Native American guide who was part of the Anza expedition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So we have alphabetical-ish, Spanish-ish street names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Totally. And, they were trying to work fast because they had to have it all done by the end of 1909 when the mayoral administration changed. So, maps after 1910 show the new names.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our question asker Carolyn actually mentioned an old map she’d found… \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Carolyn Karis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">W\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">e have a couple of older maps that we were looking at and one of them is 1909 map that we picked up somewhere and that has the letters. So it says like ABC above the park and then below the park, it just has the letter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So presumably this was printed between the time when the plan for the alphabetical streets was made, and when the final names hadn’t been chosen yet. So, this is actually a very cool little piece of history.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, a little time capsule window into the past. Thanks for all your reporting on this, Katrina.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My pleasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to Carolyn Karras for asking this week’s question. You selected it in one of our monthly voting rounds and hey – our April voting round is now up and has some good questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 1: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How many Bay food businesses are still in business after 10 years?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Why does the SF Parks and Recreation still manage properties outside of the city limits?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Question 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about the history of Bay Area communal living and what makes things a communal living situation vs cult.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Which of those do you want to hear on the show? Cast your vote at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter where we answer even more listener questions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… and me Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from … and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "cambrian-park-plaza-a-beloved-san-jose-strip-mall-awaits-a-new-future",
"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future",
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"headTitle": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.[aside postID=news_12078615 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260320-KOGURACOMPANY00242_TV-KQED.jpg'] But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"title": "Cambrian Park Plaza, A Beloved San José Strip Mall, Awaits a New Future | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing a lot of people notice about Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-jose\">San José\u003c/a> is the sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s big; it’s yellow; and it has a carousel on top, complete with playful figures encircling the outside. At one point, the carousel actually rotated — but like many things in this shopping plaza — it has seen better days.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plaza itself is low slung with a massive parking lot that is often empty. Storefronts are made of brick and nestle under a covered walkway. It’s not your average strip mall with a big grocery store at the center and smaller chains flanking it. Instead, there’s a bit more charm. Shops are clustered around little courtyards with white picket fences, picnic benches and trees. Some stores have window boxes with flowers. There are roses and palm trees. It’s quaint, but faded.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It has a circus slash English garden theme, cottage theme,” Connie Young said. “I was like, ‘This seems like an interesting place, and a place that has a lot of history.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young was visiting Cambrian Park to volunteer at the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ibokrescue.org/info/display?PageID=21948\">Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe\u003c/a>, a pet adoption organization located in the plaza. She was surprised to see many nostalgic memories of the place online. She wanted to learn more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079115\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079115\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_015_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A covered walkway lined with storefronts stretches through Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There seem to be a lot of people who are mourning the loss of Cambrian Park Plaza, a 1950s era strip mall in San José that is set to be demolished for housing and retail space,” she wrote in to \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a>. “What’s the history of that place?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Valley of Heart’s Delight\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood represents the quintessential story of San José development. For a long time, San José was small, an agricultural center for the many orchards and farms nearby. But after World War II, the Defense industry was booming and more people were moving to the area for jobs. The city manager at the time, Dutch Hammond, wanted to create the Los Angeles of Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Largely what got developed here was track housing, which was very cheap to build,” said Michael Brillot, a retired San José city planner. “You just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard, and you plop in houses like you build Model T Fords on an assembly line, except the workers move as opposed to the product.”\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The push was to develop outwards from San José’s core and to build enough housing to supply the workforce to places like Sunnyvale and Cupertino.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Cambrian Park neighborhood — and its shopping mall — was part of that history. A large landowner named Paul Schaeffer owned the orchards that became Cambrian Park. He decided to tear out the trees and build houses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He recognized people need to buy stuff,” said Peter Clarke, a Cambrian Park resident and member of the Friends of Cambrian Park group. “They need a post office and a grocery store. So he assembled this particular plaza as the only real center in this area.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, many families only had one car. It was common for the breadwinner to drive north to work while the other parent stayed home with the children. During its heyday, Cambrian Park Plaza had everything families needed within walking distance of their home — a grocery store, a hardware store, clothing stores, a post office, a bowling alley, even doctors’ and dentists’ offices.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This was the downtown,” said Bob Burres, another local resident. “There is no ‘main street’ in the Cambrian Park area. This was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>A slow decline\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That remained true for decades, but over time, the plaza began to fade and social patterns changed. People drove more and further for things, making the plaza less central to their needs. The Schaeffer family retained ownership of the plaza \u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">until 2015\u003c/a>. Peter Clarke guesses that it was passive income for owner Paul Schaeffer and his wife in their later years. But when they died, their children sold the plaza to a developer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When it was bought, and people said, ‘We’re going to redevelop it,’ we were in favor,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079113\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_013_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Cambrian Park Plaza sign, built in 1953 with the shopping center, features a rotating carousel and received historic status in 2016, on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many Cambrian Park residents were ready for an updated space that might once again be the center of community life. The Friends of Cambrian Park group stayed involved as the developer, Texas-based Weingarten Realty, proposed various uses for the property. But residents did not like early proposals that resembled more traditional strip malls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The community was very clear,” Clarke said. “They wanted to see a place that was a location that people would come to linger at, that had sit-down dining. They didn’t want more fast food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They wanted something like \u003ca href=\"https://www.thepruneyard.com/\">The Pruneyard\u003c/a> in Campbell or the Los Gatos’ downtown, two locations residents currently go to for entertainment and dining.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>An iterative process\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2022/08/05/structures-cambrian-timeline.html\">Over many years,\u003c/a> after lots of city planning meetings featuring \u003cem>some\u003c/em> yelling, there’s finally a proposal on the table that many residents can get behind. It was approved by the city council in 2022.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The new development would include underground parking, retail with apartments built above, a central plaza, a hotel, an assisted living facility, 48 single-family homes and 25 townhouses.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> But four years later and nothing has been built yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build,” said Kelly Snider, a professor at San José State University and a development consultant. “There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said no one developer specializes in all those various uses. On top of that, very few big projects like this are moving forward anywhere in the Bay Area. The economics just don’t work out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Interest rates are high, construction materials and labor are expensive and people’s work and consumer habits have changed. Brick-and-mortar retail stores have a lot of competition online. There’s fewer business travelers in San José. More people are working remotely, so office spaces sit empty.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Will the Cambrian Park project ever get built?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“I think that the interest rates, at some point, [will] come down,” Brilliot said. “And I think some projects will come back. But I think it’s gonna be slower, more flat growth. And because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see a massive amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For their part, Bob Burres and Peter Clarke are waiting nervously to see how it all turns out. They know that of all the elements in the approved plan, the single-family homes and townhouses will be the easiest for the developer to recoup investment. After all, housing is always in demand in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079109\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079109\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/040726Bay-Curious_Cambrian-Plaza_GH_005_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Red roses rise above a white picket fence in a garden at Cambrian Park Plaza on April 7, 2026, in San José. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land, it’s never going to be commercial again,” Peter Clarke said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if that happens, the neighbors’ dream of a central gathering spot — like the Pruneyard — will never come to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The permit for the current \u003ca href=\"https://www.sanjoseca.gov/your-government/departments-offices/planning-building-code-enforcement/planning-division/major-development-projects/cambrian-park-plaza-signature-project\">Cambrian Park Signature Project\u003c/a> will expire in 2028. But the developer recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>*An earlier version of this article called this project the “Cambrian Park Urban Village” when in fact its official name is “Cambrian Park Signature Project.” A Signature Project is one element of a larger urban village area. We regret the error.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes questions come from the most random places.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I volunteer for a San José-based kitten rescue and it’s called Itty Bitty Orphan Kitty Cafe. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Connie Young, from Mountain View.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we have adoptable foster kittens that come every weekend. And there’s two playrooms. And you can book a 50-minute slot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The kitten cafe where she volunteers is located in Cambrian Park Plaza on the west side of San José.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I went there to volunteer and I saw that plaza and it was kind of different than the other strip mall plazas in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cambrian Park Plaza isn’t one long flat fronted building like a typical strip mall. It was built to mimic the experience of a town’s main street, so the facade turns often, creating little plazas with white picket fences and brickwork. There are window boxes and roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It has kind of like a circus slash like English garden theme, cottage theme.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Circus because one of the defining features of this plaza is a huge yellow sign with a carousel on top. The figures \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> to rotate, although like many things in this plaza, it has seen better days.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was like, this seems like an interesting place and a place that has a lot of history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This shopping mall is slated for redevelopment, and Connie wants to know more about its history and what it could become. Connie also noticed that online many people have shared fond memories of this plaza’s heyday in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. Let’s hear a few…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember driving by Cambrian Plaza and seeing the carousel from when we first arrived in San José.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was always a grocery store there when I was a little kid. So we’d walk up to the grocery store to do our shopping for the day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a go-to. I mean, you could do everything there. You could go to a delicatessen and get your meats and cheeses, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There was Ben Franklin, which was the coolest store on the face of the planet. It was like a dime store and you could get anything there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were hardware stores there. There were pet shops, as I said, the clothing stores, very lot of practical things that, you know, people would need.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in walking distance.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The minute I think of the smell of bubblegum ice cream, which for a four-year-old that was like Nirvana, I picture myself inside that ice cream parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jaime Portillo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I remember going to the bowling alley. We used to go there a lot during high school and hang out with the other teenagers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To this day remember the sound of the pins hitting the the back wall and the balls striking and people laughing and having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Janet Gillis: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’d go down in a little group of you know five or six or eight kids and be back before dinner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carolyn Robinson: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were so many things that, that as a kid, it made my life feel a little bit bigger and richer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those were nearby residents Jaime Portillo, Carolyn Robinson and Janet Gillis sharing their memories.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz headed to San José to find out more about the fate of Cambrian Park Plaza. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first Cambrian Park neighbors I meet are characters…they’ve been attending city meetings and organizing their neighbors to influence what gets built here for years. And they aren’t shy about some of the tactics they used..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m the guy who kicked over the apple cart, repeatedly. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Bob Burres — a proud instigator. His friend and neighbor, Peter Clarke, has a different approach he says…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He’s nice, he’s polite, he’s a proper English gentleman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am the Brit, which is the funny accent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob and Peter like this neighborhood for its views of the mountains and quiet, neighborly charm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was originally all farmland. Then the farmers decided they could make more money by essentially selling up and having housing developed on the periphery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The guy who owned all the land that became the neighborhood of Cambrian Park was named Paul Schaeffer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he recognized, you know, people need to buy stuff.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This area was the heart of Cambrian Park. This was the downtown. There is no main street in Cambrian park area. This was it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As Peter and Bob are showing me around it’s clear this mall is no longer the heart of the neighborhood. But the neighbors hope it could be again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As you go through you see there’s numerous little plazas and sitting spaces all around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The plaza has a faded quality. We walk down the outside of the building, which has covered walkways that protect us from the rain that’s falling. Many storefronts are empty and I hear just as much about what it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">used to be\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> as what it is now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This used to be the Cambrian Post office for years.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That used to be a Mexican restaurant, but closed down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The things that are left… a boxing gym, a pet adoption agency, a store for kids baseball gear…are on short term leases. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can’t put a lot of investment into a retail space for a six month lease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob have both lived in Cambrian Park for 30 years… but even back in the late 80s and early 90s the plaza was already in slow decline. The Schaeffer family owned it for most of its existence, but stopped keeping it up in later years. When Paul Schaffer and his wife died, their children sold it to a developer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it was bought and people said we’re going to redevelop it, we were in favor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peter and Bob are part of a group called the Friends of Cambrian Park Plaza. They’ve been pushing the city and developers to create a vibrant place to live, shop and gather.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have hopes that something beautiful will come out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They look to a place like The Pruneyard in Campbell as their model. It’s got local businesses alongside chains..and is a pleasant place to hang out.We’ll dig into the details of what could be built here and explore why achieving that vision could be a tough sell in San José right now. All that, coming up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Almost a million people live in San José. It’s the largest city in Northern California, but its development hasn’t followed the pattern of a typical big city. That’s why despite being dubbed the Heart of Silicon Valley…many people think a more apt term would be “the bedroom” of Silicon Valley. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you look at San José, it very much feels like you’re in the San Fernando Valley or somewhere in Los Angeles, not the old urban part, but the more auto suburban track housing part of LA. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Michel Brilliot worked for the city of San José for 27 years…retiring as the deputy director of long range projects. He says the sprawling, residential character of the city can be traced back to one man\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michalel Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dutch Hammond. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like Cambrian Park, the rest of San José was mostly agricultural. Before Dutch Hammond came along, there were fruit trees as far as the eye could see. But after World War II, the defense industry was booming and Hammond understood its workers needed somewhere to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Largely what got developed here was track housing which was very cheap to build you just knock down the cherry orchard or the apricot and prune orchard and you just you plop in houses like you build model t fords on an assembly line except the workers move as opposed to the product.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Cambrian Park neighborhood was part of this era…built in the late 1950s. The homes are largely ranch style with yards and garages. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People historically would have a family and settle down and work and they would drive north for their job in what became and is now Silicon Valley. And that to a large extent has not changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The problem with that, Michael says, is that running a city that is mostly residential, with few big businesses, is expensive. Residents want services.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They want code enforcement to deal with the RV that someone’s living in down the street or parks and maintaining the parks and they want libraries and. So they want all these things which cost money. Businesses generally don’t want as much services from the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As early as the 1970s, San José city leaders realized it needed a better balance of businesses and homes. The goal was to bring more jobs into the city itself, to increase the tax base and to reduce congestion on the roads. Those are still the goals of city planners, says Michael.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the idea now is really to, instead of growing out, growing up, and growing up really along transit corridors and transit stations and in the downtown and create these places that are called urban villages.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The proposed plan for Cambrian Park Plaza is one of these urban villages – a cluster of amenities, housing and jobs near a transit corridor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music to emphasize back and forth\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would have underground parking with retail above.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A six-story apartment block on top of retail. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Shops would be built around a central plaza for families and neighbors to gather. Then there’d be…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An assisted living building\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">48 single family homes, 25 townhouses, and…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A hotel.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But nothing has actually been built by the developer, Kimco Realty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we’ve seen very little higher density projects break ground. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The plan that you can look through on the city’s website is not economically feasible to build.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly Snider is an adjunct professor at San José State and a development consultant. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kelly Snider: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s just a lot going on in a very small parcel. It’s a little bit of a Frankenstein.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kelly says there’s no one developer who specializes in so many different types of buildings…hotels, assisted living, single family homes… retail..they’re all very different. And the economic picture right now makes it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">even less likely \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this project will be completed anytime soon. It’s a story we see around the Bay Area. Labor is expensive. Construction materials cost more than ever… and interest rates aren’t favorable. Plus, Michael Brilliot says, the population of San José is now shrinking, not growing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, will the Cambrian Park urban village ever get built?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Michael Brilliot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that when the interest rates, at some point, they’ll come down. And I think some projects will come back. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I think it’s gonna be a slower, more flat growth and because of that, I don’t think you’re gonna see masses of amount of development like you did in the dot-com boom when things were just going crazy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a post-COVID world, it may not make sense to build hotels and offices. Brick and mortar stores have to compete with online retailers. It’s a different real estate picture now than when this plan was conceived a few years ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bob Burres, Peter Clarke and the other Friends of Cambrian Park are watching this play out nervously. They worry the only economically feasible thing to do with the property is to build townhouses…after all, in the Bay Area, housing is always in high demand.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Bob Burres: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that we have heard over and over from the folks in the city is developers come in with fairly grand plans. And they’re gonna do some housing, and they’re going to do some sort of commercial, and they are going to something else. Well, housing is the only thing that’s profitable. And so they decide to build, we’re going to build the housing first. And then phase two and phase three will have these other things. They build the housing and then they say, sorry, it doesn’t pencil and they abandon the project. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Peter Clarke: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Once you put up housing on any piece of commercial land it’s never going to be commercial again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if that happens, their dream of a gathering spot like the one in Campbell…the Pruneyard…will never become a reality. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I brought all this back to Connie Young, our question asker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I can see why they would want to kind of redevelop it into something more community focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Connie grew up in the South Bay and remembers wishing there was more to do…more places she could go without a ride from her parents. Now she’s living in Mountain View and has enjoyed the way streets have been closed downtown to make space for dining and gathering.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Connie Young: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I feel like that’s what the South Bay is missing in a lot of the cities, especially San José, like a central plaza or the neighborhood where everybody gathers in the evening and their kids run around and play. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The permit for the current Cambrian Park Urban Village plan will expire in 2028. Getting new ones would be expensive for the developer…maybe that’s why the company recently applied to alter the permit so they can build the housing part of the plan first and extend the permit up to 4 years in the process. The city is currently reviewing the proposal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz. Thanks to Connie Young for asking this week’s question. It was selected by you in a monthly voting round on Bay \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://curious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Curious.or\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">g. That’s one of the things I think makes Bay Curious unique… it is driven by you – your questions, about your community. And, it’s funded by you too. We need your support to keep things going, so please consider making a donation to KQED today. It only takes a few minutes. You can do it right from your phone. \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> is the place to do it. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "in-a-tech-hub-like-the-bay-area-why-do-bart-announcements-sound-so-ancient",
"title": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient?",
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"headTitle": "In a Tech Hub Like the Bay Area, Why Do BART Announcements Sound So Ancient? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg'] The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/bart\">Bay Area Rapid Transit\u003c/a> — or BART — was a brand new, cutting-edge transportation system when it opened in 1972. Since then, its reputation has become a bit less high-tech. And while riders hear a variety of voices making announcements throughout the BART system, there are two that sound different — robotic, synthesized voices, one male and one female, that sound like they are from yesteryear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And at least one rider has taken particular note.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never understood what it was saying,” Bay Curious listener Jimmy Tobin said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Jimmy, the voices sound rudimentary, like the voice of 1990s Microsoft Sam.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m baffled by this thing,” he said. “I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078618\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078618\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250403-BART-VOICES-01-KQED-1536x1169.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sept. 11, 1972, BART opens to the public. On the first day alone, 15,000 people rode the new trains, despite the fact that they only ran between Fremont and MacArthur Stations in the East Bay. \u003ccite>(Courtesy Bay Area Rapid Transit))\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It seems like a blatant contradiction to him that trains running through communities at the heart of the AI boom sound like they’re from the first computers ever made. He wants to know why these robotic announcements have never been updated.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Passengers used to just wait\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the late 1990s, BART had no live train information or announcements for passengers. There would occasionally be voiced announcements in the case of major disruptions, but on a regular day, riders would consult a paper schedule to see when a train was supposed to arrive. In the case of delays, riders would wait on the platform, without any information on when the train might actually come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 2000, BART began using a new piece of technology.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp> The Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) is a data hub that allows BART to calculate and communicate live train locations. For the first time, BART had the ability to share real-time information with riders, like the estimated time of arrival of a train. They initially did this with digital signage on the train platforms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The data would later be made publicly available, allowing for other platforms like navigation apps to utilize the live train information.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When this technology was rolling out in 2000, BART was also assessing the accessibility of its system for blind and visually impaired riders. BART’s policy became, “Anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say,” said Alicia Trost, chief communications officer at BART.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In order to translate the digital signs with real-time updates into verbal announcements, BART acquired a text-to-speech system from Lucent Technologies, a telecommunications company. And those synthesized voices that bug Tobin so much, they have names — George and Gracie. Listen closely, and you’ll hear that George announces trains in one direction and the Gracie announces trains in the opposite direction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, this was cutting-edge technology — the system could vocalize thousands of announcements per day with real-time information, all without any human involvement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the past 26 years, George and Gracie have stayed mostly the same, and their limitations have become apparent. For an accessibility tool, they can be hard to understand, and compared to today’s voice synthesizing technology, they don’t sound very human.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Why hasn’t BART updated George and Gracie?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie are proprietary to Lucent Technologies, which went out of business in the mid-2000s. The company is no longer around to provide updates, and BART doesn’t have access to the source code to make its own changes. The only thing that can be updated is the text that George and Gracie read.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“BART has really limited funding, and we have to think about the priority,” Trost said. “Things like replacing our trains are more important.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12044953\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12044953\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/06/20241204-BART-JY-009_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers wait to board BART at Daly City Station in Daly City, on Dec. 4, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>George and Gracie may be a bit outdated, but the system works, so updating it isn’t a top priority, Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s also clear that some Bay Area residents love George and Gracie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the computer game Roblox, users have \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24yglNNGJZ4\">featured their voices\u003c/a> in recreations of the BART system. As players drive or board a virtual BART train, George and Gracie are there announcing: “Now boarding at Embarcadero.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have also been a topic of discussion on Reddit and YouTube. \u003ca href=\"https://www.reddit.com/r/Bart/comments/1g130wj/the_voices_of_bart/?solution=4a4ea784b52b90a34a4ea784b52b90a3&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da586108bdd3256eb2920042534355492efd5e\">One Reddit user, ‘get-a-mac,’\u003c/a> wrote, “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another with the handle StreetyMcCarface wrote, “Keep George and Gracie, they are iconic.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, Trost said BART \u003cem>is \u003c/em>looking to replace the announcement system at some point, which will force some tough decisions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sound so dated, because people love them?” Trost said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>BART is currently facing a $376 million deficit, raising big questions about its future. It’s forcing Bay Area residents to consider a world without BART and its role in the culture of the bay, big and small.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Area Rapid Transit. Our dear friend, BART. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">For regular riders, your whirs, squeaks and horns are part of the everyday soundtrack of life.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">always\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> hear you coming. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Whir of a train pulling into the station\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We appreciate those timely warnings… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The doors are closing please stand clear of the doors\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And how you help us not miss our stop. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Arriving at 16th street Mission\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every now and then, someone \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">real\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> pops in\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is BART operation control…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy Tobin, our question asker, has been fixated on one particular sound in the BART ecosystem. A set of announcements …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So sometimes it feels like there’s like a lower kind of male voice that’s like, feels like it’s from like war games, like WOPR kind of style. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Wargames Clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This box interprets signals from the computer and turns it into sounds. “Shall we play a game?” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And there’s a higher female voice is kind of like 90s Microsoft Sam style.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Microsoft Sam: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hello, I am Microsoft Sam. I am the most popular voice of Microsoft.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There are a variety of voices riders hear throughout BART, some of which are voiced by actual people. But it’s \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">these\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> robotic and synthesized voices that Jimmy can’t stop hearing … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Three car Fremont Train now boarding, platform 2.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Jimmy is an audio engineer at Google who actually works on synthesized speech models, and these voices really \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">bothered\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> him. One day when he was waiting for a BART train and heard an announcement for a train heading toward the Oakland Airport.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">6-car Blue line train for OAK Airport Dublin in 15 minutes. 6-car Green line train for OAK Airport Barryessa in 19 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I never understood what it was saying. I always thought it was, like, Oasis? And so I was just like, what is this word? And then I look at the board and it’s like, OAK, and I’m like, why didn’t it say Oakland? Like, and so I’m baffled by this thing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It felt like such a contradiction to him that \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">this \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">was a voice of the transit system going through the home to the AI Boom… where all the newest tech is being developed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I kept being like, it must be for, like, accessibility or maybe it’s like, it doesn’t have accents or something. And I was just like, I just can’t justify why this is so hard to understand and so easy to update. That’s why I came to you guys.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He wants to know the backstory behind these voices – and where they came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jimmy Tobin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What has been the decision-making to keep it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious. Today on the show we answer Jimmy’s questions. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor Break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">To tell us more about the voices behind BART, we pass it to KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened to the public on Sept. 11, 1972, the world looked different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">1970s music plays\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Richard Nixon was president of the United States. Elvis Presley’s “Burning Love” was charting. And Bay Area residents flocked to try out the new Bay Area Rapid Transit system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At the time it only ran for 11 stops — from the McArthur Station in Oakland down to Fremont.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>BART Commercial:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The decade of the 1970s, is the decade of the decade of transportation alternatives…but the first large-scale breakthrough in moving great numbers of people rapidly and economically is the SF Bay Area Rapid Transit system, commonly called BART.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When BART first opened, there was no live train information for riders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The only way riders knew when a train was coming was by reading a paper schedule. You might hear an announcement for major occurrences like if a train was completely out of service. But if your train was a little delayed, you’d sit and wait– without any information on when it would actually arrive.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then in 2000, everything changed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART developed a piece of technology called the Advanced Passenger Information System. For the first time, BART knew the live locations of trains throughout the system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Riders now got real time information about when their train would arrive..\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alicia Trost is the Chief Communications Officer at BART. She told me more about this era.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We had digital screens on the platform that gave you the, what we call ETAs, estimated time arrivals of the train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And this was a pretty big deal… but at a time where new legislation mandated accessibility for disabled people— BART had to ask some important questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But what if you’re low vision and you can’t see or you’re blind? And so there was this big policy decision to say anything that’s been written down, we need to also verbally say.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BART chose a text-to-speech system to voice these announcements. It came from Lucent Technologies– a telecommunications company. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so in 2000, this synthesized voice speaking for BART was born. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a computer with zero emotion, and it’s… every… word… is… spaced… apart.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Voices were tested at different speeds and levels of breathiness. Riders gave input on the versions that were easiest to understand that led to the final version.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The feminine voice of this system was named Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 6 car richmond train now approaching platform 1 \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And the masculine voice was named George.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> 10 car San Francisco-Milbrae train in 8 minutes\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">George and Gracie announce a train’s estimated time of arrival, when a train is actively arriving, and when it is boarding. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">In 2000, this was cutting edge technology– announcements made automatically, without any human involvement.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yes, there were and still also are \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">human voiced\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> announcements when there are big disruptions or delays… but even today, you’ll hear George and Gracie while waiting for a train. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So next time you’re in a bart station, really pay attention. You’ll hear George’s voice for one direction only and Gracie’s voice for the opposite direction.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Beat]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Since 2000, George and Gracie have been the voices we hear on BART platforms. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And in the past 26 years, there has been very little change. That’s because the actual text-to-speech system is \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">proprietary\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">to Lucent Technologies\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. And after the demise of the company in the mid 2000s, they haven’t been around to provide any updates. And the kicker is BART doesn’t have access to the source code so they can’t change it. The only thing they can do is change the text that George and Gracie speak. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, I asked Alicia Jimmy’s question: Why hasn’t this been replaced ?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Because it works and BART has really limited funding and when we go for capital funds, that’s the type of money we use to replace this system we have to think about the priority and things like replacing our trains is more important.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But she says that BART \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>is\u003c/i>\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">aware of the limitations of this technology– they’ve gotten that feedback and they want to replace it in the future. So, they are looking at piloting a new PA system.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And part of that is introducing what will be new voices. And it makes me nervous to even say that because this is going to cause great fear and debate among riders and the public… Do we introduce new voices or do we actually replicate the old George and Gracie that sounds so dated, but because people love them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And, despite their flaws, it seems like lots of people love these voices.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We frequently get asked about George and Gracie, and people tell us they love it. And we also know that there’s a lot of young people who adore the sound and have actually built in Roblox full-on BART systems.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they include recordings George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So as you’re driving or boarding a virtual BART train in the 3D world of roblox, you’ll hear their voices!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of Roblox game\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Aside from Roblox, George and Gracie have been a topic of discussion on Reddit and Youtube. And while there are the usual criticisms and suggestions to change it, it’s interesting to see what these voices represent for some people who love them: \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One person on reddit with the username ‘Get-a-Mac’ says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> “I never want those voices gone. They are the voice of BART!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Another user, COD Gamer 19, says:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gracie and George are a part of BART’s history, it wouldn’t feel the same without them, they’re a part of the bay as a whole.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alicia Trost:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I just know that it’s a popular topic because of how much I see it like in the culture of the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are questions about the future of BART, especially as \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">“They face a 376 million dollar budget deficit.”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s forcing us to consider the ways BART impacts our lives and culture. And frankly, what it might be like to live without it.These questions go far beyond George and Gracie.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But still, this little piece of technology, stuck in time, reminds us of how quickly things have changed. And maybe, it brings you a little joy –or frustration –iin the monotony of your commute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Gracie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> George, it’s time to get back to work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>George:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You are right as usual, Gracie. Goodbye and thanks for visiting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral. Jimmy Tobin thank you for asking the question. There is no question too big or small for Bay Curious – if you’ve got one that’s been itching in your mind, send it our way over at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> or shoot us an email. We’re at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-bay-areas-famous-redwood-trees-are-struggling",
"title": "The Bay Area's Famous Redwood Trees Are Struggling",
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"headTitle": "The Bay Area’s Famous Redwood Trees Are Struggling | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article originally published in June of 2023. It has been lightly updated for republication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were many things Bay Curious listener Julie Menter loved about her Oakland home when she first moved there in 2017. Chief among them were the three towering redwood trees in her backyard, which Menter estimated had been there longer than the house itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, one of the trees started to look sick. It had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite Menter watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. So Menter and her husband decided it had to come down. [baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so sad,” she said. “And I think it’s sad both for the tree because they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, ‘Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s noticed, not just in her backyard but all around Oakland, redwood trees are looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Magical trees\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Menter’s question, we first have to understand why redwood trees are unique to the Bay Area. Coast redwoods — which we’re focusing on for this story — stretch up and down the Northern California coast and grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult,” said Deborah Zierten, an educator with \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/\">Save the Redwoods League\u003c/a>. “This was the place that I would hike to clear my head. So it is a very special place for me here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The quiet, cool, almost prehistoric feel of these redwood forests have provided solace to humans for millennia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time, however. Now they live primarily along the coast between Big Sur and the California-Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953536\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival photo shows loggers standing around and laying in a notch cut into a massive redwood tree as the prepare to fell it. The tree may be around 20 feet in diameter and of unknown height, though it could be as tall as 300 feet.\" width=\"800\" height=\"610\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-1020x778.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg 1160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In the early 20th century, redwoods endured a period of intense logging activity. Most of the redwoods you see today have grown since that period, and pale in comparison to the massive size of the trees that once stood along the California coast. \u003ccite>(Ericson Collection/Humboldt State University Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Their range used to extend more broadly, until they endured a period of \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/about-us/mission-history/redwoods-timeline/\">severe logging in the late 19th century\u003c/a>. After the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Millions of trees were logged and used to build homes and other structures around the Bay Area. Most of the trees here now have grown since then. Even by conservative estimates we’ve lost about 90 percent of what once was. Now, California is down to about 100,000 acres of old growth redwood forest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps their most identifiable feature — besides their reddish-brown bark — is their height. They can grow up to 300 feet tall, a feat that requires some teamwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down, is that they help each other,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their shallow but wide root systems allow them to grow to be the tallest trees on the planet. And the intertwining of their roots helps them exchange nutrients with one another. Their trunks can grow to be immense, up to nearly 30 feet in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Redwoods can live a very long time, too. In fact, some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/shirley/sec11.htm\">oldest coastal redwoods\u003c/a> today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those stands of \u003ca href=\"https://sempervirens.org/news/old-growth-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters/#:~:text=What%20Is%20The,redwood%E2%80%99s%20highest%20reaches.\">old-growth redwoods\u003c/a>, which now account for only 5% of all redwood trees, can \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26107#\">store more carbon\u003c/a> than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So, often you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953639\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953639\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg\" alt=\"A child dressing in a redwood tree costumes stands next to a woman in a bright blue sweater. In the background, a redwood forest is visible.\" width=\"800\" height=\"845\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1020x1077.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-160x169.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1455x1536.jpg 1455w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1940x2048.jpg 1940w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1920x2027.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Deborah Zierten teaches a group of fifth graders about redwood trees in Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park in Oakland. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Redwoods prefer cool, moist climates, which is why they’re now primarily found in Northern California. In the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees rely on another iconic California phenomenon: coastal fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water,” Zierten said. “Then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve adapted to other characteristics of this region, including wildfires. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fires, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods State Park near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11835124/some-good-news-many-of-big-basins-ancient-redwoods-appear-to-have-survived\">the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now many redwood forests — including 80% of the surviving old-growth trees — are protected either by state and local governments or nonprofits, like Zierten’s Save the Redwoods League.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>New challenges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s not just Menter’s imagination: Redwood trees are indeed struggling across the Bay Area.[emailsignup newslettername=\"baycurious\" align=\"right\"]“If you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of brown foliage in the crowns of these trees,” said \u003ca href=\"https://ib.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/dawsont\">Todd Dawson\u003c/a>, an environmental scientist at UC Berkeley who has been studying redwoods for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason for that suffering is urbanization and the subsequent proliferation of concrete and pollution. Roadways and sidewalks, in particular, are impinging on redwoods’ root systems, essentially suffocating them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Concrete has] a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs,” said Dawson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to urbanization, climate change is wreaking havoc on redwood trees’ ideal growing conditions. Coastal fog, for example, upon which redwood trees rely for water, is on the decline. In fact, since the 1950s, Dawson said, fog has declined about 30% during the summertime, when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953610\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Tall, bright green redwood trees and ferns surround a hiking path. The air is misty and grey.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A foggy day in Joaquin Miller Park in the Oakland hills. In the summertime, redwoods ‘drink’ the coastal fog. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees — especially giant sequoias, another type of redwood that lives mostly in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees,” Dawson said. “It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to a lack of water, more intense fires are also affecting redwoods. Though they have adapted to fire over the centuries, they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and inadequate forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All in all, Dawson said redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches farther and farther into the wild, redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we’re going to see a patchier world,” Dawson said. “And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can we do?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As Menter asked, is there anything we can do to save the redwoods?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for backyard redwood trees, Dawson said irrigation might work, but it’s more of a Band-Aid solution because “the trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler, they like these moist, foggy summers,” he said, “and I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic, said Dawson, and that’s how we should approach solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way to help protect redwood forests is by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits, which Dawson said is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing, gigantic trees. There’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. So I’m really concerned about them and I’d love to see those forests protected in perpetuity,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you ever paused a moment, to fully take in a redwood tree? Stared up at its towering trunk. Cupping around a single ridge of its massive bark. Inhaling that warm, woody, slightly sweet scent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious listener Christy Dundon has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Back when I was in high school, just a long time ago, I worked for the Alameda Recreation and Park Department and we had a day camp and we would take kids up to the Redwood Regional Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The redwoods in the park now are mostly younger, second-growth redwoods – but there are signs left of the old growth redwoods that once stood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I remember showing them the stumps that were there, which were pretty big with usually trees in a circle around them … sometimes I’d have them lie down and it was, you know, its diameter was wider than they are tall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seeing these stumps got Christy wondering about when these trees were cut down and why. And also how many redwood forests once stood in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would love to know how extensive it was, what, I mean, did they just somebody got the idea this is where we’re going to get our lumber, and then how much was actually cut down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> For this story on old growth redwoods, we called up an old friend, Daniel Potter. Hi, Daniel!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, hi!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Daniel has done a few stories for us on natural history and trees… And he even wrote a bit on redwoods for the Bay Curious book. (which, ahem, is still available wherever books are sold.) So Daniel, redwoods. They come in a few varieties.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right. They’re a phenomenon almost exclusive to California. By that I mean there are three species—a somewhat shorter one from central China—and then the two familiar to Californians. Inland, we have the massive Sierra redwoods, also known as giant sequoias, and the kind we’ll be focusing on today, which is actually even taller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s the coast redwood, or the one a lot of folks just call… redwoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The scientific name is Sequoia sempervirens. These trees can grow taller than the Statue of Liberty, including the pedestal and torch. Taller than a football field is long. And they can live around 2,000 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And true to their name, you tend to find them along the coast, in the fog belt, from Monterey County up to around the Oregon border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of my favorite Bay Area spots for wow’ing out-of-towners with them has always been Muir Woods, in Marin County. That’s one of the few places in the region where people left old redwoods standing in the last few centuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So there were once more? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So many more! Logging of the redwoods started long before the Gold Rush, in the time of Spanish settlers and Russian traders… but the Gold Rush really kicked it into high gear. For 19th-century people building a city like San Francisco in a hurry, old redwood was ideal. In his book Trees in Paradise, historian Jared Farmer writes “it was easy to work with, hard to wreck. No other lumber matched its combination of lightness, evenness, and durability.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In addition to the stumps Christy saw, you also see little hints of this logging history around. ..Like down on the Peninsula, where you’ll find ‘Redwood City.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes! Sawyers would cut down redwoods on the east side of the Santa Cruz mountains, and use the port there to float that wood up toward a growing San Francisco. In his book, Farmer writes “by the mid 1850s, San Francisco had exhausted the easy-to-reach redwood, including pocket stands in the Berkeley Hills.” Loggers then worked their way north up the coast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, let’s fast forward to after the 1906 earthquake and fire. The city is devastated, people need to rebuild, concrete and steel aren’t yet ubiquitous for construction. What happens? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People cut down even more trees. They constructed tens of thousands of buildings in the decade after the quake, almost all of them with wood frames. Redwood was the rule—literally. Officials believed using redwood had kept the fire from being even worse, so afterward, builders had to get a permit to use anything else. The demand was epic, on the order of hundreds of millions of square feet, an inch thick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So our question-asker wanted some sense of what was lost here. And it sounds like… a lot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, exactly how much depends a little on whether you’re just counting the heavy stands of redwoods, like the awesome cathedral stands up toward the North Coast, or also the spots where they’re more mixed in with other trees. But ballpark, before the Gold Rush, there were 1 or 2 million acres of old growth redwood forests, whereas now we’re down to less than 100 thousand acres. So even by a conservative estimate, we’ve lost about 90% of what once was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 90%! And most of it now makes up the skeleton of San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it’s a weird way to think about it, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well… on the bright side, at least there’s still some standing for us to visit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah! My wife and I did the iconic California road trip for our honeymoon a few years ago, and visiting the redwoods up along the Avenue of the Giants was sublime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Mm! Daniel Potter… Longtime friend of the show, now making a podcast called Bug Note about the wiggly, wild, weird world of bugs. Find it on YouTube. Daniel – thank you as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, a pleasure as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return a deep dive on what makes Coast Redwoods so special, and how they’re fairing in the age of climate change. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have received a bevy of listener questions about redwoods over the years. One came from Julie Menter. She and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For this next story, we’re spending more time with California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED’s Dana Cronin takes it from here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of children in a forest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning students!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Students:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A student’s hand shoots up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree in the whole entire world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Magical sounding music\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music in \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system. And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie, regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whimsical music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. We are a member-supported public media station and we really need your help. Give today at KQED.org/donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article originally published in June of 2023. It has been lightly updated for republication.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were many things Bay Curious listener Julie Menter loved about her Oakland home when she first moved there in 2017. Chief among them were the three towering redwood trees in her backyard, which Menter estimated had been there longer than the house itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Last year, one of the trees started to look sick. It had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite Menter watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. So Menter and her husband decided it had to come down. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was so sad,” she said. “And I think it’s sad both for the tree because they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, ‘Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She’s noticed, not just in her backyard but all around Oakland, redwood trees are looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Magical trees\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To answer Menter’s question, we first have to understand why redwood trees are unique to the Bay Area. Coast redwoods — which we’re focusing on for this story — stretch up and down the Northern California coast and grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult,” said Deborah Zierten, an educator with \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/\">Save the Redwoods League\u003c/a>. “This was the place that I would hike to clear my head. So it is a very special place for me here.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The quiet, cool, almost prehistoric feel of these redwood forests have provided solace to humans for millennia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time, however. Now they live primarily along the coast between Big Sur and the California-Oregon border.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953536\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white archival photo shows loggers standing around and laying in a notch cut into a massive redwood tree as the prepare to fell it. The tree may be around 20 feet in diameter and of unknown height, though it could be as tall as 300 feet.\" width=\"800\" height=\"610\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-800x610.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-1020x778.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging-160x122.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/redwood-logging.jpg 1160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">In the early 20th century, redwoods endured a period of intense logging activity. Most of the redwoods you see today have grown since that period, and pale in comparison to the massive size of the trees that once stood along the California coast. \u003ccite>(Ericson Collection/Humboldt State University Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Their range used to extend more broadly, until they endured a period of \u003ca href=\"https://www.savetheredwoods.org/about-us/mission-history/redwoods-timeline/\">severe logging in the late 19th century\u003c/a>. After the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Millions of trees were logged and used to build homes and other structures around the Bay Area. Most of the trees here now have grown since then. Even by conservative estimates we’ve lost about 90 percent of what once was. Now, California is down to about 100,000 acres of old growth redwood forest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Perhaps their most identifiable feature — besides their reddish-brown bark — is their height. They can grow up to 300 feet tall, a feat that requires some teamwork.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down, is that they help each other,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their shallow but wide root systems allow them to grow to be the tallest trees on the planet. And the intertwining of their roots helps them exchange nutrients with one another. Their trunks can grow to be immense, up to nearly 30 feet in diameter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Redwoods can live a very long time, too. In fact, some of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/shirley/sec11.htm\">oldest coastal redwoods\u003c/a> today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those stands of \u003ca href=\"https://sempervirens.org/news/old-growth-what-it-means-and-why-it-matters/#:~:text=What%20Is%20The,redwood%E2%80%99s%20highest%20reaches.\">old-growth redwoods\u003c/a>, which now account for only 5% of all redwood trees, can \u003ca href=\"https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=26107#\">store more carbon\u003c/a> than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“So, often you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing,” said Zierten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953639\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953639\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg\" alt=\"A child dressing in a redwood tree costumes stands next to a woman in a bright blue sweater. In the background, a redwood forest is visible.\" width=\"800\" height=\"845\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-800x845.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1020x1077.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-160x169.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1455x1536.jpg 1455w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1940x2048.jpg 1940w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/Deborah-without-kids-1920x2027.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Deborah Zierten teaches a group of fifth graders about redwood trees in Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park in Oakland. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Redwoods prefer cool, moist climates, which is why they’re now primarily found in Northern California. In the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees rely on another iconic California phenomenon: coastal fog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water,” Zierten said. “Then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ve adapted to other characteristics of this region, including wildfires. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fires, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods State Park near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11835124/some-good-news-many-of-big-basins-ancient-redwoods-appear-to-have-survived\">the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now many redwood forests — including 80% of the surviving old-growth trees — are protected either by state and local governments or nonprofits, like Zierten’s Save the Redwoods League.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>New challenges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>It’s not just Menter’s imagination: Redwood trees are indeed struggling across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“If you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of brown foliage in the crowns of these trees,” said \u003ca href=\"https://ib.berkeley.edu/people/faculty/dawsont\">Todd Dawson\u003c/a>, an environmental scientist at UC Berkeley who has been studying redwoods for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One reason for that suffering is urbanization and the subsequent proliferation of concrete and pollution. Roadways and sidewalks, in particular, are impinging on redwoods’ root systems, essentially suffocating them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Concrete has] a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs,” said Dawson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to urbanization, climate change is wreaking havoc on redwood trees’ ideal growing conditions. Coastal fog, for example, upon which redwood trees rely for water, is on the decline. In fact, since the 1950s, Dawson said, fog has declined about 30% during the summertime, when redwoods really need it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11953610\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11953610\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg\" alt=\"Tall, bright green redwood trees and ferns surround a hiking path. The air is misty and grey.\" width=\"800\" height=\"1067\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-800x1067.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1020x1360.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1152x1536.jpg 1152w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-1536x2048.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2023/06/IMG_5107-scaled.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A foggy day in Joaquin Miller Park in the Oakland hills. In the summertime, redwoods ‘drink’ the coastal fog. \u003ccite>(Amanda Font/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees — especially giant sequoias, another type of redwood that lives mostly in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees,” Dawson said. “It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In addition to a lack of water, more intense fires are also affecting redwoods. Though they have adapted to fire over the centuries, they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and inadequate forest management.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All in all, Dawson said redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches farther and farther into the wild, redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we’re going to see a patchier world,” Dawson said. “And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What can we do?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As Menter asked, is there anything we can do to save the redwoods?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As for backyard redwood trees, Dawson said irrigation might work, but it’s more of a Band-Aid solution because “the trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler, they like these moist, foggy summers,” he said, “and I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic, said Dawson, and that’s how we should approach solutions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One way to help protect redwood forests is by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits, which Dawson said is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing, gigantic trees. There’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. So I’m really concerned about them and I’d love to see those forests protected in perpetuity,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you ever paused a moment, to fully take in a redwood tree? Stared up at its towering trunk. Cupping around a single ridge of its massive bark. Inhaling that warm, woody, slightly sweet scent…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious listener Christy Dundon has.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Back when I was in high school, just a long time ago, I worked for the Alameda Recreation and Park Department and we had a day camp and we would take kids up to the Redwood Regional Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The redwoods in the park now are mostly younger, second-growth redwoods – but there are signs left of the old growth redwoods that once stood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I remember showing them the stumps that were there, which were pretty big with usually trees in a circle around them … sometimes I’d have them lie down and it was, you know, its diameter was wider than they are tall. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Seeing these stumps got Christy wondering about when these trees were cut down and why. And also how many redwood forests once stood in the Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christy Dundon:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would love to know how extensive it was, what, I mean, did they just somebody got the idea this is where we’re going to get our lumber, and then how much was actually cut down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> For this story on old growth redwoods, we called up an old friend, Daniel Potter. Hi, Daniel!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, hi!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Daniel has done a few stories for us on natural history and trees… And he even wrote a bit on redwoods for the Bay Curious book. (which, ahem, is still available wherever books are sold.) So Daniel, redwoods. They come in a few varieties.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Right. They’re a phenomenon almost exclusive to California. By that I mean there are three species—a somewhat shorter one from central China—and then the two familiar to Californians. Inland, we have the massive Sierra redwoods, also known as giant sequoias, and the kind we’ll be focusing on today, which is actually even taller.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> That’s the coast redwood, or the one a lot of folks just call… redwoods.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The scientific name is Sequoia sempervirens. These trees can grow taller than the Statue of Liberty, including the pedestal and torch. Taller than a football field is long. And they can live around 2,000 years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And true to their name, you tend to find them along the coast, in the fog belt, from Monterey County up to around the Oregon border.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> One of my favorite Bay Area spots for wow’ing out-of-towners with them has always been Muir Woods, in Marin County. That’s one of the few places in the region where people left old redwoods standing in the last few centuries.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So there were once more? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So many more! Logging of the redwoods started long before the Gold Rush, in the time of Spanish settlers and Russian traders… but the Gold Rush really kicked it into high gear. For 19th-century people building a city like San Francisco in a hurry, old redwood was ideal. In his book Trees in Paradise, historian Jared Farmer writes “it was easy to work with, hard to wreck. No other lumber matched its combination of lightness, evenness, and durability.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> In addition to the stumps Christy saw, you also see little hints of this logging history around. ..Like down on the Peninsula, where you’ll find ‘Redwood City.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes! Sawyers would cut down redwoods on the east side of the Santa Cruz mountains, and use the port there to float that wood up toward a growing San Francisco. In his book, Farmer writes “by the mid 1850s, San Francisco had exhausted the easy-to-reach redwood, including pocket stands in the Berkeley Hills.” Loggers then worked their way north up the coast. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Okay, let’s fast forward to after the 1906 earthquake and fire. The city is devastated, people need to rebuild, concrete and steel aren’t yet ubiquitous for construction. What happens? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People cut down even more trees. They constructed tens of thousands of buildings in the decade after the quake, almost all of them with wood frames. Redwood was the rule—literally. Officials believed using redwood had kept the fire from being even worse, so afterward, builders had to get a permit to use anything else. The demand was epic, on the order of hundreds of millions of square feet, an inch thick.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So our question-asker wanted some sense of what was lost here. And it sounds like… a lot.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah, exactly how much depends a little on whether you’re just counting the heavy stands of redwoods, like the awesome cathedral stands up toward the North Coast, or also the spots where they’re more mixed in with other trees. But ballpark, before the Gold Rush, there were 1 or 2 million acres of old growth redwood forests, whereas now we’re down to less than 100 thousand acres. So even by a conservative estimate, we’ve lost about 90% of what once was.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 90%! And most of it now makes up the skeleton of San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, it’s a weird way to think about it, isn’t it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well… on the bright side, at least there’s still some standing for us to visit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah! My wife and I did the iconic California road trip for our honeymoon a few years ago, and visiting the redwoods up along the Avenue of the Giants was sublime. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Mm! Daniel Potter… Longtime friend of the show, now making a podcast called Bug Note about the wiggly, wild, weird world of bugs. Find it on YouTube. Daniel – thank you as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Daniel Potter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Olivia, a pleasure as always.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> When we return a deep dive on what makes Coast Redwoods so special, and how they’re fairing in the age of climate change. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor Message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We have received a bevy of listener questions about redwoods over the years. One came from Julie Menter. She and her husband moved into a house in Oakland in 2017. There were lots of things they loved about their new home, but especially the three big redwood trees in the backyard. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It feels like it’s a really big part of the identity to me of the city of Oakland. Like if you look at the hills and the trees…being able to go in nature while being in a city feels really important to me for my mental health and balance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Last year, Julie started to worry about the trees. One of them had lost almost all of its leaves and, despite watering it, it wasn’t bouncing back. It had to come down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s so sad. And I think it’s sad both for the tree because, you know, they’re such beautiful trees, they’re so old and majestic. But also scary to be like, “Whoa, this tree is not doing well, the one next to it isn’t, the ones in my neighborhood don’t seem to be doing well.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Julie’s noticed not just in her backyard, but all around Oakland, redwood trees don’t look so good. Around her neighborhood… off highways… really all over the East Bay, Julie has noticed the trees looking dry and scraggly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julie Menter:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So I’m wondering, is something happening to the redwood trees in the Bay Area? And if so, what is it and is there anything we can do about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For this next story, we’re spending more time with California’s state tree: the coast redwood. We’ll dig into why it’s unique to this area, what makes it so special and also how it’s adapting to challenges like climate change and urbanization. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED’s Dana Cronin takes it from here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound of walking through a forest \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a really special feeling I get every time I walk through a redwood forest. My mind goes quiet, the only audible sound coming from the crunch of my footsteps. The temperature is always perfect; even on the hottest day, it’s still cool among the trees. And the smell.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene)\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">: It smells so good. There’s just no, like, even just stepping outside of my car in the parking lot, I was like (breathes in, breathes out) It’s just so good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m in the middle of the Roberts Redwood Recreational forest in the Oakland hills… hiking with Deborah Ziertan, who works for Save the Redwoods League. She’s gonna help me teach you all about redwood trees and why they’re unique to our region. Then, later on, we’ll get to the heart of Julie’s question … what’s happening to them? And just a note – for this episode we’ll mostly focus on coastal redwoods, which grow no more than 50 miles from the coastline. Now, Deborah grew up here in Oakland and visited these redwoods frequently as a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I don’t think I fully appreciated the redwoods until I went away to school and then came back as an adult. And this was the place that I would hike to clear my head. And these were the forests that I came to. And so it is a very special place for me here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah has now dedicated her life to these trees. She’s an educator with Save the Redwoods League. Her job is to teach school-aged kids about them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds of children in a forest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning students!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Students:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Good morning.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I tagged along recently with Deborah, as she guided about thirty fifth graders from a local elementary school through the Reinhardt Redwood Regional Park. The students are spread out across three wooden picnic tables, fidgeting in their seats. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Can I have everyone’s eyes up here? Ok. Will everyone look up and take a look? We are in a little redwood grove. So these are all redwood trees. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After setting a few ground rules… no touching plants… be quiet while others are talking… Miss Deborah — as they call her — launches into the lesson. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know anything about redwood trees at all? Raise your hand if you know anything about redwoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A student’s hand shoots up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yes. They are really tall. They are. Redwoods are the tallest tree in the whole entire world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees can grow more than 300 feet tall. That’s taller than a 30-story skyscraper. And not only are they the tallest tree in the world, they’re also among the biggest. Their trucks can grow nearly 30 feet wide. So, how are they able to get so big?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everyone do this with your arms. It’s okay if you kind of lightly touch your neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah holds her arms out straight to the sides, like a scarecrow. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the things that makes redwoods so unique is that they actually hold hands with their roots underneath the ground, and that’s how they’re able to grow to be so tall and not fall down is that they help each other. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood roots are shallow and extend outward instead of down. Their roots extend out almost as far as the tree is tall … and they essentially hold each other up. In addition to being really big… redwoods can also live a very long time… like more than 2,000 years. That means some coastal redwoods today were alive during the Roman Empire. Those old-growth redwoods, which now only account for 5 percent of all redwood trees, can store more carbon than any other forest on the planet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So we are pretty lucky to have redwood trees here in Oakland. And people travel from all over the world to come and see redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Magical sounding music\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwood trees also have unique ways of reproducing. They produce seeds, like any other tree, but they can also sprout new trees from their roots. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So often redwood trees, you will find them in circles that we call fairy rings. Because if a parent tree gets hurt or injured, it will send out these baby sprouts into these circles. And it’s kind of like a little family growing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’re basically clones of their parents. That’s why you rarely see redwood trees standing alone, and more often see them together in a circle formation. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Deborah tells the students we can learn a lot from redwood trees. They exist in communities and rely on each other for support. They have hard exteriors that protect them from things like wildfires, but they’re soft on the inside. Deborah says… they’re not so different from us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The earliest redwood trees existed more than 200 million years ago… alongside dinosaurs in the Jurassic period. Their natural range has shrunk a lot in that time… now they mostly stretch up and down the northern California coast… as far north as the Oregon border and down to about Big Sur. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their distribution tracks with another iconic California phenomenon… coastal fog. So, in the summer months, when there’s a lack of rainfall, redwood trees essentially drink the fog.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> It’s almost like a sponge sucking in that water. And then when their needles get full, also like a sponge, any of that excess water will drip to the ground. And it’s almost as if they’re creating their own rain. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And they’ve adapted to this region in other ways, too. They’re highly adapted to fire. Take the 2020 CZU Lightning Complex fire, for example, which burned through most of Big Basin Redwoods near Santa Cruz. Three years later, that forest is green again… and the old-growth redwood trees there are still standing strong. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Redwoods also survived a period of severe logging in the late 18-hundreds when, after the Gold Rush, San Francisco was booming and timber was in high demand. Many trees didn’t survive, though. In fact, most of the trees now living in the Oakland hills are ones that have grown since that period of logging… young, by redwoods standards. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Luckily, a movement was underway to protect redwood forests. Save the Redwoods League… where Deborah works… was founded in 1918… and helped to accelerate the preservation of redwood trees across Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Deborah Ziertan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> People started to see the value in recreation and see the value in these trees not as lumber, but for health and wellness and for preservation purposes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music in \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But now they’re facing new challenges. As our question-asker Julie noticed… Redwood trees in the Bay Area are struggling.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you walk and you look up now, in most urban areas, I think everybody can pretty much see that, you know, there’s some tops that are dying back. There’s a lot of, you know, brown foliage in the crowns of these trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s Todd Dawson. He’s an environmental scientist and professor at UC Berkeley and has been studying redwood trees for decades. We met up on a foggy morning at the UC Berkeley campus… home to many unhealthy-looking redwood trees.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> See the thinning crowns of the one right out there in the distance? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> There you go. And you just see that over and over and over, repeated in so many places. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Todd says trees are suffering all over the Bay Area… even up through Santa Rosa. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, there are two main reasons for that suffering. Let’s take them one at a time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first reason is urbanization. The Bay Area has gone through a drastic transformation over the last century…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And with all the concrete and all the pollution that’s associated with urban sprawl, the trees are suffering. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s mostly because sidewalks and roadways are impinging on redwoods’ root systems. Remember how their roots extend out really wide?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Here we are standing ten feet away from a redwood tree on a concrete sidewalk. And we’ve set concrete on top of a big part of the root system. And so it’s really going to have a very, very negative impact on the ability of that tree to get the water it needs, get the nutrients it needs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re basically suffocating them. And on top of that, we have reason number two… climate change… which is impacting redwood trees in different ways. That fog that redwoods drink in, well, it turns out it’s on the decline. In fact, since the 1950’s it’s declined about 30% during the summertime… when redwoods really need it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That decline, coupled with periods of severe drought in California, is putting a lot of stress on the trees. Especially Giant Sequoias… another type of redwood that mostly lives in the Sierra Nevada. Thousands of trees there have died due to a lack of water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The water deficit itself didn’t really kill all those trees. It weakened them in a way where other pests and pathogens got in there and basically wiped them out like beetles, fungi, other things like that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In addition to a lack of water… more intense fires are also impacting those trees. Although they have adapted to fire over the centuries… they can’t handle the extreme fires we’re seeing now caused by climate change and bad forest management. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All in all, Todd says redwood forests are struggling along their perimeters. As the wildland-urban interface stretches further and further into the wild… redwood trees are increasingly exposed to human impacts. They’re losing their buffer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I think that’s the future, is we’re going to see a patchier world. And that’s really disappointing and concerning for me because, you know, we sit at the heart of that. Humans are really the ones that are in control and are having the negative impacts that we now see. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I think we’ve answered most of Julie’s questions… except for one. What can we do about it? Todd has a couple thoughts on that. First, Julie, regarding your backyard redwood trees… Todd says you can try watering them…. But…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The trees require so much water. They also require pretty special microclimates, meaning that they like it cooler. They like these moist, foggy summers like we’re seeing today. You know, And I think you can’t really recreate those conditions as a person. Right. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, he says, irrigation is a band-aid solution at best. Because the problems redwood trees are facing now are much more systemic. And that’s how we need to think about solutions, Todd says.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of those solutions is to protect redwood forests by getting them in the hands of governments and nonprofits… like Deborah’s Save the Redwoods League. Todd says that work is critical to ensuring the trees’ survival here in Northern California. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span> \u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Whimsical music begins\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Todd Dawson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The forests are just so special, these big cathedrals with these amazing and gigantic trees that there’s just nothing like that. And I think anybody who’s ever walked through a forest for the first time just is in awe of what a special place and what a special feel it has. And so I’m really concerned about them and I want to keep working with them and I’d love to see those forests protected, you know, in perpetuity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Protecting them now means securing their existence for our kids, grandkids… and maybe even humans two THOUSAND years from now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at KQED. We are a member-supported public media station and we really need your help. Give today at KQED.org/donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a fantastic week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-theres-a-cross-on-san-franciscos-highest-peak",
"title": "Why There's a Cross on San Francisco's Highest Peak",
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"headTitle": "Why There’s a Cross on San Francisco’s Highest Peak | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published April 1, 2021.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tucked away on a wooded hillside in the middle of San Francisco sits a big concrete cross. When it was built, it could be seen from miles around. Now, a thick grove of trees partially shields it from view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Bay Curious has gotten several questions about the cross. Even lifelong San Franciscans, like Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo, have wondered about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up in and around S.F. I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there and where it came from?” says Thollaug.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Growing up in the Outer Mission/Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed, or even as of today, why it’s still up on Mount Davidson,” adds Montalvo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither of them has ever visited Mount Davidson Park, where the cross is located. And after living here for decades, I hadn’t either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Davidson Park rises above a quiet residential neighborhood just west of Twin Peaks. It’s not well known or well marked. But once you start walking the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees and it’s easy to forget you’re in the middle of a major city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867150\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867150 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Looking to the east from the top of Mt. Davidson (Suzie Racho/KQED) \u003ccite>(Suzie Racho)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9780738546605\">Author\u003c/a> and Mount Davidson \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/jacqueline-proctor/\">historian\u003c/a> Jacquie Proctor says the cross’s origin story goes back to 1923. To a time when the area was a forest. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company and involved with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top, ” Proctor says. “And he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed. He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An imposing sight, the concrete cross stands 103 feet tall and measures 10 feet wide at the base. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Proctor says people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring ’20s by reconnecting to the natural and to the spiritual. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it wasn’t hard for Decatur to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 281px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867161\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"281\" height=\"425\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut.jpg 940w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 281px) 100vw, 281px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An article from the San Francisco Examiner, January 1923.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. These would become neighborhoods like Westwood Highlands, Forest Hill and St. Francis Wood. Baldwin saw the service as a way to introduce more people to new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So he not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot tall wooden cross constructed for the service. That’s nearly $31,000 in today’s dollars.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>The event also received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scout troops camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The dean of Grace Cathedral led the service. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That Easter morning was a rainy one, but Proctor says that didn’t stop 5,000 worshipers from showing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“James Decatur thinks, ‘This is great. Had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again!’ ” Proctor says.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year. But it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross. There were five in all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Each temporary cross was replaced as t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people, Proctor says. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867160\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 358px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867160\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"358\" height=\"459\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut-160x205.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 358px) 100vw, 358px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“People are dressed up,” Proctor says. “They’re wearing fancy shoes and their fur coats. It was this incredible civic event. ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">private\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> land, land that was beginning to fill with new houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover \u003ca href=\"https://sfpucnewsroom.com/spotlight/a-look-back-in-history-a-courageous-woman-organized-to-preserve-mt-davidson-as-a-public-park/\">Madie Brown\u003c/a>. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma, who donated the six acres at the peak. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he cross would now be sitting on public land. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867378\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11867378\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"671\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut-160x134.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Thousands of worshippers climbed to the top of Mount Davidson for the sunrise service in 1930. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After years of temporary crosses, construction began on the monument in 1932. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross — almost $400,000 in today’s dollars. By the time it was completed, the country was in The Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As part of the ceremony, a dozen 1,000-watt flood lights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Madie Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to an envoy of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home and who through his New Deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross lighting ceremony,” she wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines to set up a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C., and San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed a gold \u003ca href=\"https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/history/morse-code-telegraph/morse-key-development.php\">telegraph key\u003c/a> that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson cross. Once lit, the cross was visible from 50 miles away. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 280px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11867162\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"280\" height=\"352\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg 286w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi-160x201.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 280px) 100vw, 280px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Mount Davidson cross nears completion in 1934. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San FrancicoPublic Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The cross became a San Francisco landmark. But other than an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Dirty Harry”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in 1971, it had largely stayed out of the news until the early 1990s, when the issue of a cross on public land ends up in \u003ca href=\"https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/803/337/2132956/\">court.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After several years of litigation, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state laws. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross and the cross and they have to sell it with no conditions,” says Proctor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12077572 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00034_TV-KQED.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre it sits on. The sale requires any bidder to keep the site open to the public and places restrictions on how many days it can be illuminated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Three groups come forward in hopes of preserving the cross as a landmark: The Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy (of which Jacquie Proctor was a member), the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Museum of the City of San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Council of \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountdavidsoncross.org/council\">Armenian American Organizations of Northern California\u003c/a>. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Armenian group thought that the cross could become a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915,” says \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makasdjian, a member of Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Makasdjian says that descendants often built two things in the places where they settled: churches and genocide memorials. The Armenian Council thought a visible symbol like the cross on Mount Davidson could educate the public about this history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With the support of the neighborhood group, who share the goals of preserving the cross and the park, Makasdjian’s group wins the rights to buy the site and the cross for $26,000. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11867479\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A plaque at the base of the Mount Davidson Cross marks Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day. (Photo Courtesy: Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California) \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24 to commemorate the Armenian genocide and the night before Easter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The annual \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/easter-sunrise-service/\">sunrise service\u003c/a> still exists. Now it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 1930s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Proctor is thankful for the sunrise service. Without it, she says, Mount Davidson would look very different today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings, like most of the other hills of San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2020, the coronavirus pandemic canceled the Easter service for the first time since 1923.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco may not be thought of as one of America’s most religious cities these days, but the place is named for St. Francis of Assisi. He’s the patron saint of animals, the environment and the country of Italy, which if you think about the city’s history has turned out to be a pretty apt name. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a long tradition of diverse religious practice. One place that hints at this history is on San Francisco’s highest peak, Mount Davidson. Look up and you’ll find a massive concrete cross at the top, one that some of you have been wondering about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, Bay Curious. I’m Julia Thollaug. I grew up in and around San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My name is Phil Montalvo. I’m a native San Franciscan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there, where it came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Growing up in the Outer Mission, Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed or even why it’s still up on Mount Davidson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo together: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the giant cross on the top of Mount Davidson?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we tell the story of how San Francisco ended up with a cross at its highest point. This story first aired in 2021, and we’re sharing it again because, well, there’s an event coming up that makes it sort of noteworthy at this point in time. You’ll see. You’ll see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, you’re listening to Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the deal with that Mount Davidson cross? We sent KQED producer Suzie Racho to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just west of Twin Peaks, rising above a quiet residential neighborhood is Mount Davidson Park. It’s not well-known or well-marked, but once you start walking one of the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees, and you start to forget that you’re in the middle of a major city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m coming up the trail. I’m a little out of breath, but wow, what an amazing view. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. The cross is an imposing sight. It stands at 103 feet tall and 10 feet wide at the base. Made of concrete, it stands in stark contrast to blue sky and the eucalyptus grove that surrounds it. To learn more about how it got here, I went to Mount Davidson’s resident historian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, I’m Jackie Proctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jackie says the cross’s origin story goes back almost 100 years to 1923, to a time when the area was a forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company, and followed with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top and he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed and inspired and he writes this long essay about the experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over for James Decatur: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peace and quiet were so profound that it seemed almost unbelievable that the noise and roar of a great city was only a few minutes behind them. The solitude of the forest conveyed a sense of vastness quite as real as one would experience among the age-old monarchs of the High Sierras.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Jackie says that people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring Twenties, reconnecting with the natural and spiritual worlds. So it wasn’t hard to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a local developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. He saw the Easter service as a way to introduce more people to the new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So Baldwin not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot-tall wooden cross constructed. That’s nearly $31,000 today — a hefty contribution.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">5,000 people hike up that hill in 1923.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The service received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scouts camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The Dean of Grace Cathedral led the service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">James Decatur thinks, great, this is great. I had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year, but it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first one was just torn down and replaced, and then the second one was burned down, and then, the third one was burnt down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Local newspapers report the fires as accidental or vandalism by bored teenagers. Each temporary cross was replaced as the now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are dressed up. They’re wearing their fancy shoes and their fur coats and everything. It was like, you know, this incredible civic event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on private land, land that was beginning to fill with newly constructed houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover Maddie Brown. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma. Who donated the six acres at the peak. In 1929, Mount Davidson became a city park. That put the cross on public land. Supporters eagerly began planning for a more permanent cross, one that couldn’t be blown or burned down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor reading: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And before 32,000 people at the 1932 Sunrise event, Governor Roth dedicated the cornerstone of the new 103-foot-high concrete cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross. That’s almost $400,000 today. And by the time it was done, the country was in the Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration. 12 huge floodlights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. Maddy Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home, and who through his new deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross-lighting ceremony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines, providing a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C. And San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed the button that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson Cross. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. The cross became a San Francisco landmark. It made an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie Dirty Harry in 1971. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirty Harry clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Now turn, face the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But had largely stayed out of the news until the early 90s. That’s when the issue of a cross on public land becomes a lawsuit. Groups concerned about the separation of church and state, including the ACLU, sue the city. After several years, the courts rule that city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So then the city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross, and the cross. And they have to sell it with no conditions. So whoever buys it can tear the cross down, or they can…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our historian Jackie, a longtime Mount Davidson resident, remembers the controversy vividly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Concerned about that. I’m not a religious person. I sort of just saw the cross as like a relic of the depression, another public works project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre that it sits on. They require any bidder to keep the site open to the public. The city sets the opening bid at $20,000. Three groups are interested in buying and preserving the cross, the Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy, of which Jackie was a member, the Museum of the City of San Francisco, and the Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian Genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makassian is a member of the Armenian Council. She says that descendants often build two things in the places where they settled, churches and a genocide memorial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Armenians said, you know, this would make a great monument for us to remember the Armenian genocide and maybe to educate locals about it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the auction, the museum doesn’t go past their opening bid of $20,000. The neighborhood group bids $25,000, but supports the Armenian group after agreeing they both want the same things for the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We thought, well, they seem like they really care about maintaining the area for public access. That was our goal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24th to commemorate the Armenian Genocide, and the night before Easter. The annual sunrise service still exists, today it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 30s. But Jackie says, without the sunrise service Mount Davidson would look very different today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, if we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings or everything like most of the other hills of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This year’s sunrise service takes place at 6.30 a.m on April 5th. Find details at mtdavidson.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you signed up for the Bay Curious newsletter yet? It’s full of Bay Area trivia, more answers to your questions, and usually some cool photos. Sign up at baycurious.org slash newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Suzie Racho, Katie McMurran, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is pledge season, and that means we need your support. Give any amount that works for your budget at kqed.org slash donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Brice, have a great day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published April 1, 2021.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tucked away on a wooded hillside in the middle of San Francisco sits a big concrete cross. When it was built, it could be seen from miles around. Now, a thick grove of trees partially shields it from view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Bay Curious has gotten several questions about the cross. Even lifelong San Franciscans, like Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo, have wondered about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I grew up in and around S.F. I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there and where it came from?” says Thollaug.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Growing up in the Outer Mission/Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed, or even as of today, why it’s still up on Mount Davidson,” adds Montalvo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Neither of them has ever visited Mount Davidson Park, where the cross is located. And after living here for decades, I hadn’t either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Davidson Park rises above a quiet residential neighborhood just west of Twin Peaks. It’s not well known or well marked. But once you start walking the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees and it’s easy to forget you’re in the middle of a major city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867150\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867150 size-full\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1440\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48183_IMG_6367-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Looking to the east from the top of Mt. Davidson (Suzie Racho/KQED) \u003ccite>(Suzie Racho)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003ca href=\"https://www.arcadiapublishing.com/Products/9780738546605\">Author\u003c/a> and Mount Davidson \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/jacqueline-proctor/\">historian\u003c/a> Jacquie Proctor says the cross’s origin story goes back to 1923. To a time when the area was a forest. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company and involved with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top, ” Proctor says. “And he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed. He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An imposing sight, the concrete cross stands 103 feet tall and measures 10 feet wide at the base. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Proctor says people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring ’20s by reconnecting to the natural and to the spiritual. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it wasn’t hard for Decatur to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 281px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867161\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"281\" height=\"425\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-800x1209.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut-160x242.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48208_1923-SF-Examiner-qut.jpg 940w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 281px) 100vw, 281px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An article from the San Francisco Examiner, January 1923.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. These would become neighborhoods like Westwood Highlands, Forest Hill and St. Francis Wood. Baldwin saw the service as a way to introduce more people to new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So he not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot tall wooden cross constructed for the service. That’s nearly $31,000 in today’s dollars.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>The event also received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scout troops camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The dean of Grace Cathedral led the service. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That Easter morning was a rainy one, but Proctor says that didn’t stop 5,000 worshipers from showing up. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“James Decatur thinks, ‘This is great. Had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again!’ ” Proctor says.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year. But it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross. There were five in all. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Each temporary cross was replaced as t\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people, Proctor says. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867160\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 358px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11867160\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"358\" height=\"459\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48209_AAB-9499-qut-160x205.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 358px) 100vw, 358px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“People are dressed up,” Proctor says. “They’re wearing fancy shoes and their fur coats. It was this incredible civic event. ”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">private\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> land, land that was beginning to fill with new houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover \u003ca href=\"https://sfpucnewsroom.com/spotlight/a-look-back-in-history-a-courageous-woman-organized-to-preserve-mt-davidson-as-a-public-park/\">Madie Brown\u003c/a>. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma, who donated the six acres at the peak. T\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he cross would now be sitting on public land. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867378\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11867378\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"671\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48271_AAA-9478-2-qut-160x134.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Thousands of worshippers climbed to the top of Mount Davidson for the sunrise service in 1930. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After years of temporary crosses, construction began on the monument in 1932. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross — almost $400,000 in today’s dollars. By the time it was completed, the country was in The Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As part of the ceremony, a dozen 1,000-watt flood lights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Madie Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to an envoy of President Franklin Delano Roosevelt asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cblockquote>\u003cp>“It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home and who through his New Deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross lighting ceremony,” she wrote.\u003c/p>\u003c/blockquote>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines to set up a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C., and San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed a gold \u003ca href=\"https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/history/morse-code-telegraph/morse-key-development.php\">telegraph key\u003c/a> that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson cross. Once lit, the cross was visible from 50 miles away. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 280px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\" wp-image-11867162\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"280\" height=\"352\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi.jpg 286w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48210_AAA-9440-sfi-160x201.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 280px) 100vw, 280px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Mount Davidson cross nears completion in 1934. (Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library) \u003ccite>(Photo Courtesy: San Francisco History Center, San FrancicoPublic Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The cross became a San Francisco landmark. But other than an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie, \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Dirty Harry”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in 1971, it had largely stayed out of the news until the early 1990s, when the issue of a cross on public land ends up in \u003ca href=\"https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/803/337/2132956/\">court.\u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">After several years of litigation, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals rules that\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state laws. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross and the cross and they have to sell it with no conditions,” says Proctor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre it sits on. The sale requires any bidder to keep the site open to the public and places restrictions on how many days it can be illuminated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Three groups come forward in hopes of preserving the cross as a landmark: The Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy (of which Jacquie Proctor was a member), the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Museum of the City of San Francisco\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and the \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Council of \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountdavidsoncross.org/council\">Armenian American Organizations of Northern California\u003c/a>. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Armenian group thought that the cross could become a memorial.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915,” says \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makasdjian, a member of Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Makasdjian says that descendants often built two things in the places where they settled: churches and genocide memorials. The Armenian Council thought a visible symbol like the cross on Mount Davidson could educate the public about this history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With the support of the neighborhood group, who share the goals of preserving the cross and the park, Makasdjian’s group wins the rights to buy the site and the cross for $26,000. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11867479\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11867479\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-800x600.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1020x765.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut-1536x1152.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2021/03/RS48320_Armenian-Genocide-Plaque-Closeup-qut.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A plaque at the base of the Mount Davidson Cross marks Armenian Genocide Commemoration Day. (Photo Courtesy: Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California) \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Council of Armenian Americans of Northern California)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24 to commemorate the Armenian genocide and the night before Easter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The annual \u003ca href=\"https://mtdavidson.org/easter-sunrise-service/\">sunrise service\u003c/a> still exists. Now it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 1930s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Proctor is thankful for the sunrise service. Without it, she says, Mount Davidson would look very different today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings, like most of the other hills of San Francisco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 2020, the coronavirus pandemic canceled the Easter service for the first time since 1923.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco may not be thought of as one of America’s most religious cities these days, but the place is named for St. Francis of Assisi. He’s the patron saint of animals, the environment and the country of Italy, which if you think about the city’s history has turned out to be a pretty apt name. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has a long tradition of diverse religious practice. One place that hints at this history is on San Francisco’s highest peak, Mount Davidson. Look up and you’ll find a massive concrete cross at the top, one that some of you have been wondering about.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, Bay Curious. I’m Julia Thollaug. I grew up in and around San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My name is Phil Montalvo. I’m a native San Franciscan.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve always noticed the cross and just wondered why it was there, where it came from.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Phil Montalvo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Growing up in the Outer Mission, Crocker Amazon, the cross was always in view. I never understood when it was constructed or even why it’s still up on Mount Davidson.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Thollaug and Phil Montalvo together: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What’s the deal with the giant cross on the top of Mount Davidson?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we tell the story of how San Francisco ended up with a cross at its highest point. This story first aired in 2021, and we’re sharing it again because, well, there’s an event coming up that makes it sort of noteworthy at this point in time. You’ll see. You’ll see.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, you’re listening to Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the deal with that Mount Davidson cross? We sent KQED producer Suzie Racho to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just west of Twin Peaks, rising above a quiet residential neighborhood is Mount Davidson Park. It’s not well-known or well-marked, but once you start walking one of the park’s trails, you’re surrounded by eucalyptus trees, and you start to forget that you’re in the middle of a major city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m coming up the trail. I’m a little out of breath, but wow, what an amazing view. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When you get to the top, you see two things: a view that stretches all the way to the East Bay and one very big cross. The cross is an imposing sight. It stands at 103 feet tall and 10 feet wide at the base. Made of concrete, it stands in stark contrast to blue sky and the eucalyptus grove that surrounds it. To learn more about how it got here, I went to Mount Davidson’s resident historian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi, I’m Jackie Proctor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Jackie says the cross’s origin story goes back almost 100 years to 1923, to a time when the area was a forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A guy named James Decatur, who is an employee of the Western Union Telegraph Company, and followed with the YMCA, hikes through that forest and comes to the top and he sees this incredible view of downtown. And he is just overwhelmed and inspired and he writes this long essay about the experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over for James Decatur: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Peace and quiet were so profound that it seemed almost unbelievable that the noise and roar of a great city was only a few minutes behind them. The solitude of the forest conveyed a sense of vastness quite as real as one would experience among the age-old monarchs of the High Sierras.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He is inspired then to build a cross to crown the highest point of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur thought it would be a perfect place to hold an Easter sunrise service. Holding religious ceremonies in natural settings was a trend at the time. Jackie says that people were pushing back against the materialism of the Roaring Twenties, reconnecting with the natural and spiritual worlds. So it wasn’t hard to find support for his idea. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Several of Mount Davidson’s trails had already been established by its landowner, a local developer named A.S. Baldwin. Baldwin was already starting to build houses in the surrounding area. He saw the Easter service as a way to introduce more people to the new neighborhoods west of Twin Peaks. So Baldwin not only gives Decatur permission to hold the event, but donates $2,000 to get a 40-foot-tall wooden cross constructed. That’s nearly $31,000 today — a hefty contribution.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">5,000 people hike up that hill in 1923.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The service received enthusiastic backing from city officials, religious leaders and community groups. Boy Scouts camped out the night before and acted as ushers for attendees. The Dean of Grace Cathedral led the service.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">James Decatur thinks, great, this is great. I had no idea 5,000 people would come, so let’s do it again.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decatur raises money for a bigger wooden cross for the service the following year, but it wouldn’t be the last service or the last cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The first one was just torn down and replaced, and then the second one was burned down, and then, the third one was burnt down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Local newspapers report the fires as accidental or vandalism by bored teenagers. Each temporary cross was replaced as the now annual service got more and more popular, drawing tens of thousands of people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are dressed up. They’re wearing their fancy shoes and their fur coats and everything. It was like, you know, this incredible civic event.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it was still being held on private land, land that was beginning to fill with newly constructed houses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The encroaching development alarmed nature lover Maddie Brown. In 1926, she led a campaign to urge the city to buy 25 acres on Mount Davidson to create a public park. Bolstered by women’s groups across the city, the three-year campaign was a success. She even won the support of Baldwin’s widow, Emma. Who donated the six acres at the peak. In 1929, Mount Davidson became a city park. That put the cross on public land. Supporters eagerly began planning for a more permanent cross, one that couldn’t be blown or burned down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor reading: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And before 32,000 people at the 1932 Sunrise event, Governor Roth dedicated the cornerstone of the new 103-foot-high concrete cross.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It took two years and $20,000 to build the enormous concrete cross. That’s almost $400,000 today. And by the time it was done, the country was in the Great Depression. But the people still wanted a grand celebration. 12 huge floodlights were installed on poles surrounding the cross. Maddy Brown envisioned a dramatic moment when the lights would be switched on for the first time. She wrote to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, asking him to do the honors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It seems most appropriate that the President, who has brought light into many a darkened American home, and who through his new deal has instilled the principles of the Golden Rule into American business, should take part in this cross-lighting ceremony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Western Union donates their time and their telegraph lines, providing a coast-to-coast hookup between Washington, D.C. And San Francisco. And on the evening of March 24, 1934, President Roosevelt pressed the button that sent electricity across the country to light the Mount Davidson Cross. That Easter, 50,000 people journeyed to the monument. The cross became a San Francisco landmark. It made an appearance in the Clint Eastwood movie Dirty Harry in 1971. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dirty Harry clip:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Now turn, face the cross. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But had largely stayed out of the news until the early 90s. That’s when the issue of a cross on public land becomes a lawsuit. Groups concerned about the separation of church and state, including the ACLU, sue the city. After several years, the courts rule that city ownership of the cross violates the California Constitution’s separation of church and state. San Francisco has to find someone to buy the cross or tear it down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So then the city decides they’re going to sell the land around the cross, and the cross. And they have to sell it with no conditions. So whoever buys it can tear the cross down, or they can…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our historian Jackie, a longtime Mount Davidson resident, remembers the controversy vividly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Concerned about that. I’m not a religious person. I sort of just saw the cross as like a relic of the depression, another public works project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1997, San Francisco settles on a plan to auction off the cross and the little over a third of an acre that it sits on. They require any bidder to keep the site open to the public. The city sets the opening bid at $20,000. Three groups are interested in buying and preserving the cross, the Friends of Mount Davidson Conservancy, of which Jackie was a member, the Museum of the City of San Francisco, and the Council of Armenian American Organizations of Northern California.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Most Armenian Americans, including those in the San Francisco Bay Area, are descendants of the few survivors of the Armenian Genocide, which was carried out by the Turkish leaders of the Ottoman Empire in 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Roxanne Makassian is a member of the Armenian Council. She says that descendants often build two things in the places where they settled, churches and a genocide memorial.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Roxanne Makassian: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Armenians said, you know, this would make a great monument for us to remember the Armenian genocide and maybe to educate locals about it.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At the auction, the museum doesn’t go past their opening bid of $20,000. The neighborhood group bids $25,000, but supports the Armenian group after agreeing they both want the same things for the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We thought, well, they seem like they really care about maintaining the area for public access. That was our goal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzie Racho: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today the cross is lit two nights a year, April 24th to commemorate the Armenian Genocide, and the night before Easter. The annual sunrise service still exists, today it’s non-denominational, and a few hundred people usually show up. Not quite the same scene as the thousands who appeared in their finery in the 1920s and 30s. But Jackie says, without the sunrise service Mount Davidson would look very different today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jackie Proctor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, if we didn’t have the sunrise service, we wouldn’t have a park there now. And it would have been covered with houses and buildings or everything like most of the other hills of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This year’s sunrise service takes place at 6.30 a.m on April 5th. Find details at mtdavidson.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Have you signed up for the Bay Curious newsletter yet? It’s full of Bay Area trivia, more answers to your questions, and usually some cool photos. Sign up at baycurious.org slash newsletter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This episode was produced by Suzie Racho, Katie McMurran, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is pledge season, and that means we need your support. Give any amount that works for your budget at kqed.org slash donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "new-almaden-the-mercury-mine-that-built-a-boomtown-south-of-san-jose",
"title": "New Almaden: The Mercury Mine That Built a Boomtown South of San José",
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"headTitle": "New Almaden: The Mercury Mine That Built a Boomtown South of San José | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitors to the Almaden Quicksilver County Park may well wonder what the heck accounts for the name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who or what was Almaden? What is quicksilver? Why is there a 27-room Classical Revival mansion nestled in more than 4,000 acres in the hills south of San José? So many questions!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It beggars belief today, given how bucolic the park is, but New Almaden once hummed with a busy mining operation in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In its heyday, 1,800 miners and their families lived here, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, a post office, and more. Now there are just a few moldering cemeteries and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a \u003ca href=\"https://parks.santaclaracounty.gov/learn/visit-historic-sites/almaden-quicksilver-mining-museum\">museum\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How quicksilver is used to extract gold\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before we get to our audience questions sent in about Almaden Quicksilver Park, let’s get a handle on why this place was once so valuable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The South Bay is full of cinnabar, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10 million to 12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur, and mercury is the more proper name for the silver-colored quicksilver. To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062447\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062447\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exhibits at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum, south of San José, on Oct. 27, 2025, paint a picture of the dangerous but lucrative craft of mining quicksilver from cinnabar. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Mercury was super important during the Gold Rush, because in its liquid form, gold and silver miners used the quicksilver to extract precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The mercury kind of grabs on to any precious metal,” said Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation. “All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have a kinda of silver putty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miners call that an amalgam. You heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees Fahrenheit, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, leaving you with your precious metal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It usually looks like spun sugar,” Will said. “It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How a Mexican cavalry officer discovered the cinnabar deposit in 1845\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just a few years prior to the discovery of gold at Sutter’s Mill near Sacramento in 1848, California was a Mexican territory. The Mexican government sent a cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero to catalogue strategic assets, and as was the practice at that time, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Castillero was traveling in the South Bay when he noticed a fiery red-orange paint local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062440\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062440\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features different kinds of ore in a display on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the time, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. Spain controlled the supply, which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood he was looking at a potential fortune in the hills south of San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848 and sent demand for quicksilver soaring. Multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, the Supreme Court recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. During the Civil War, the federal government briefly attempted to seize the New Almaden mine because mercury was essential for extracting gold used to finance the Union war effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this is where we get to Bay Curious listener Kiera O’Hara’s question:\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?! \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the museum, parks program coordinator Will told of an aide to President Lincoln who thought, “There’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million (roughly $7 billion today), in gold mostly, that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062439\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062439\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features photos of village life for quicksilver miners and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This aide was thinking something along the lines of, “Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the Civil War?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, ‘Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me.’” Will said. The mine manager at the time, John Young, rallied the miners working for him by saying something akin to “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this,” Will said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young also fired off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former New Almaden manager who happened to be working inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young warned the well-placed friend that the federal government was about to set off a destructive chain reaction across the West, at a moment when the Union depended on the support of California’s gold miners. There were people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Will thinks it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Has the mercury in San José caused environmental problems?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin and an environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of the mercury dug up at New Almaden \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17411/mercury-in-the-bay-part-1\">made its way downstream\u003c/a>, into the San Francisco Bay. Mining continued into the 1970s, and in 2002, scientists identified this mine as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/tracking-a-toxic-trail-long-closed-mine-2709557.php\">single largest source\u003c/a> of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A statue of a miner is featured at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When we acquired the land in the mid-1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land,” Will said. “Under the furnace yards were pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/dtsc-oversees-environmental-cleanup-of-mercury-contaminated-park/\">cleanup effort\u003c/a> to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did get help from the state and federal agencies. Additional work and monitoring continue, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses and otherwise recreate.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Is it safe to eat fish from the San Francisco Bay?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As recently as 10 years ago, two years into the big effort to clean up the Bay, \u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/cpwQ5OFIZRQ?si=SP5B4deyax67I7iR&t=356\">KQED explored this question\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://youtu.be/cpwQ5OFIZRQ?si=SP5B4deyax67I7iR&t=356 \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish, especially large fish, can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand,” the story said. “At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud. It may take more than 100 years for the Bay to recover.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment recommended that children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like \u003ca href=\"https://oehha.ca.gov/sites/default/files/media/downloads/advisories/fishadvisorysfbayreport2023.pdf\">sharks and striped bass\u003c/a>. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Has Cornish culture survived in the region?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Our final listener question comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall, on the far southwest tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features a Cinnabar display south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Long filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 B.C.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A0U6kQNCN0\">Poldark,\u003c/a>” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s. But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed, and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is a saying, ‘If you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman,’” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish pasty, which became, in Spanish, the paste. Over in \u003ca href=\"https://califcornishcousins.org/\">Grass Valley\u003c/a>, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.[aside postID=news_12076973 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-07-KQED.jpg']“I just did a very cursory search of your phone book in San José, and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames,” Long said. Also on his trip to San José not too long ago, he spotted the \u003ca href=\"https://www.vta.org/go/stations/ohlone-chynoweth\">Ohlone-Chynoweth\u003c/a> station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Chynoweth in Cornish means ‘new house.’ So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A 1960 documentary collaboration entitled \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/casjhsj_000081\">Quicksilver!\u003c/a> noted that, even then, in the mid-20th century, the mine was fading into the mists of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, which have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Long has an idea related to his membership in a Cornish chorus. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/track/60i1cJcq1fCNgolbUc67Xn\">The Miners’ Anthem\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe to link up with a museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This story starts with three things that don’t seem like they belong together: Cornish miners, mercury poisoning, and Abraham Lincoln. They are, however, all connected to a mine in the foothills south of San José. We’re talking about the Almaden Quicksilver mine. Its glory days are long gone, and so Bay Curious gets a lot of questions about it. KQED’s Rachael Myrow knows all sorts of things South Bay, so we called her up to answer some of your questions. Hey, Rachael!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Hey, Olivia!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So the Almaden Quicksilver mine sits in what is today Almaden Quicksilver County Park. I visited some years ago, and I remember a sprawling park with rolling hills. I think I went in the summertime, so it was very, very, very hot and quite dry. But I can’t say I remember the mine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> That could be because there’s not a lot of the mining apparatus left. But in its heyday, in the 19th century, 1,800 miners and their families populated these hills, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, and much, much more. Now there’s just a few moldering cemeteries …and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a museum, with really restricted hours. I’m going to guess it was closed when you hiked or drove past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmmm, yeah. Must have been. Now, over the years on Bay Curious, we have done quite a few stories that touch on the California Gold Rush, less about the Silver Rushes that followed, but really nothing about quicksilver. To be honest, I don’t even really know what quicksilver is …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>To be honest, Olivia, neither did I before reporting this story out. But mining it was a lucrative hustle during the Gold Rush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, well, before we dive in, then, could we do a little quicksilver 101?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Of course! The South Bay is full of \u003cem>cinnabar\u003c/em>, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10-12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur. Mercury being a more proper name for quicksilver, by the way …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is really taking me back to high school chemistry class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> As it should! And what do you remember about mercury, Olivia?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, well, it’s a liquid at room temperature, and that’s unusual for a metal. And it’s a silvery color…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> You’ve got it! To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out. Now, mercury was super important during the Gold Rush because it was used by gold and silver miners to extract the precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in. Here’s Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, to explain further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>So you pour your mercury over that sand. The mercury kind of grabs onto any precious metal. All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have — uh — looks kinda of like a silver putty. So it’s called an amalgam, and then you heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, and then you are left with your precious metal, which could be gold or silver. It usually looks like spun sugar, almost. It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, I get it. And this stuff must have been in high demand after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848. I imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Exactly. In 1845, California is still a Mexican territory. A Mexican cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero was riding through these foothills when he noticed something unusual — a fiery red-orange paint that local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But how did he know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> At the time Castillero made his discovery, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. So Spain controlled the supply. Which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood mercury’s importance in economic terms. So when Castillero saw that cinnabar in 1845, he understood he was looking at a potential fortune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What was Castillero doing in San José anyway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>He was sent by the Mexican government to catalogue strategic assets. Now, under Mexican law, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves. So when Castillero saw the cinnabar, his life changed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this brings us to one of our Almaden Quicksilver listener questions! It comes from Kiera O’Hara of Santa Clara, who joined you, Rachael, on her \u003cem>second\u003c/em> tour of the Almaden Quicksilver Museum. Second, because she first visited when she was seven or eight years old. The museum is a regular pit stop for South Bay school children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera O’Hara:\u003c/strong> What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The museum sits in the Casa Grande, or big house, a 27-room Classical Revival mansion the mine’s superintendents used to live in. As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush sent demand for quicksilver soaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, SCOTUS recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties. And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. And this is where we get to Kiera’s question, about whether Abraham Lincoln was involved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>There was an aide to President Lincoln who went, “Oh, there’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million dollars in gold mostly that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies. For those of you wondering, $170 million dollars in the 1860s would be worth roughly $7 billion dollars today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So this aide is thinking, ‘Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the U.S. civil war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, “Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me, the aide.” Then, mine manager, John Young, said ‘no!’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>So, just put yourself in John Young’s shoes. Who the heck is this aide showing up all of a sudden with troops behind him and a half-baked plan to take over the mine, because says who?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>He got the miners and said, “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>First, Young rallies his workers. And he fires off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former Almaden manager who now sits inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And said, “This is what’s happening out here. If he takes this mine, there’s the potential that he could take over every mine in California and the western United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Young was essentially saying, if the federal government seizes this mine, it could set off a chain reaction across the West, and at a moment when the Union depends on the support of California’s gold miners. There \u003cem>were\u003c/em> people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kiera, our question asker, asked if Abraham Lincoln was involved. Lynda told us it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking — his calculated warning framed as patriotism — stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we dig in on the environmental impacts of this mine. Plus a listener question about the miners who once worked there. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Sponsor Message\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So we’ve learned that mercury comes from cinnabar. It was super valuable during the Gold Rush because it helps separate gold from ore. And there was a big kerfuffle over the ownership of the Almaden mine that could have changed California’s posture during the Civil War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, I want to touch on the environment … because you don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin, and a huge environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Yes. Unfortunately, some of that mercury made its way downstream, into the San Francisco Bay. In 2002 — not that long ago — scientists identified \u003cem>this\u003c/em> mine as the single largest source of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike. I asked Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, about this very question …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>I can tell you a little bit about it. Yeah. When we acquired the land in the mid-70s, 1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land. Under the furnace yards was, you know, pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, which purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar cleanup effort to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did, I should mention, get help from the state and the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is it safe for us to be in this park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Additional work and monitoring continues, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And what about the fish in the Bay, can we eat them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Errr, that’s a different story, more complicated. As recently as 10 years ago, 2 years then into the big effort to clean up the Bay, KQED explored this very question. Let’s just say, they were still describing it as problematic, not just because of the direct legacy from mining days, but from stormwater runoff and air pollution. Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish … especially large fish … can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand. … At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So that old adage, “Don’t fish off the pier,” sounds like it remains true today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, the longer-lived, big fish, especially. In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment, or OEHHA, recommended children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like sharks and striped bass. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Alright, so that’s two questions dispatched. Let’s move on to question number three. It comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall — the county at the far south west tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 BC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “Poldark,” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed … and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>So there is a saying, if you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish \u003cem>pasty\u003c/em>, which became, in Spanish, the \u003cem>paste. \u003c/em>Over in Grass Valley, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I just did a very cursory search of your — the phone book in San José — and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish surnames like “Hicks” and even “Cornish.” Also, on his trip to San José, not too long ago, and he spotted a curious station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>There’s a station called Ohlone-Chy-NO-weth. Or CHIN-oh-weth, as you call it. Well, Chynoweth in Cornish means “new house.” So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask Andrew. Today, little remains of the area’s once-bustling village life. Aside from the large mansion that now houses the museum, the only hints are the nonnative cypress and poplar trees, and the spreading vinca ground cover … green survivors of gardens long since forgotten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s a bit from a 1960 documentary collaboration I dug up between the Museum and Channel 11 News.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, that have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Andrew has an idea, related to his membership in a Cornish chorus called Barrett’s Privateers. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing The Miners’ Anthem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of The Miners Anthem\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>Maybe to link up with the museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Andrew, Kiera and to you, Rachael.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> My pleasure, as always!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the start of a month, and that means a new voting round is up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Let’s hear your choices …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 1: Why is there a taco truck on every corner in San Francisco and San Mateo? They seem to have sprung up in the last year or two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 2: Why are there huge fans over the tunnels near the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 3: What’s the story with the abandoned cop car in front of the airport off 101? Everyone knows no actual cop is in it, so what’s the scoop with leaving it there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tally a vote for your favorite of those questions at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve still got space in our upcoming Bay Curious Trivia game. Snag some tickets for you and your friends at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Its quicksilver powered the California Gold Rush, but today, few traces of those boom-boom days remain, other than the toxic legacy still circulating in the San Francisco Bay.",
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"title": "New Almaden: The Mercury Mine That Built a Boomtown South of San José | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitors to the Almaden Quicksilver County Park may well wonder what the heck accounts for the name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who or what was Almaden? What is quicksilver? Why is there a 27-room Classical Revival mansion nestled in more than 4,000 acres in the hills south of San José? So many questions!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It beggars belief today, given how bucolic the park is, but New Almaden once hummed with a busy mining operation in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In its heyday, 1,800 miners and their families lived here, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, a post office, and more. Now there are just a few moldering cemeteries and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a \u003ca href=\"https://parks.santaclaracounty.gov/learn/visit-historic-sites/almaden-quicksilver-mining-museum\">museum\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How quicksilver is used to extract gold\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before we get to our audience questions sent in about Almaden Quicksilver Park, let’s get a handle on why this place was once so valuable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The South Bay is full of cinnabar, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10 million to 12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur, and mercury is the more proper name for the silver-colored quicksilver. To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062447\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062447\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00307_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Exhibits at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum, south of San José, on Oct. 27, 2025, paint a picture of the dangerous but lucrative craft of mining quicksilver from cinnabar. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Mercury was super important during the Gold Rush, because in its liquid form, gold and silver miners used the quicksilver to extract precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The mercury kind of grabs on to any precious metal,” said Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation. “All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have a kinda of silver putty.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miners call that an amalgam. You heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees Fahrenheit, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, leaving you with your precious metal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It usually looks like spun sugar,” Will said. “It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How a Mexican cavalry officer discovered the cinnabar deposit in 1845\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Just a few years prior to the discovery of gold at Sutter’s Mill near Sacramento in 1848, California was a Mexican territory. The Mexican government sent a cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero to catalogue strategic assets, and as was the practice at that time, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Castillero was traveling in the South Bay when he noticed a fiery red-orange paint local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062440\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062440\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00156_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features different kinds of ore in a display on Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>At the time, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. Spain controlled the supply, which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood he was looking at a potential fortune in the hills south of San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848 and sent demand for quicksilver soaring. Multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, the Supreme Court recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. During the Civil War, the federal government briefly attempted to seize the New Almaden mine because mercury was essential for extracting gold used to finance the Union war effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And this is where we get to Bay Curious listener Kiera O’Hara’s question:\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?! \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the museum, parks program coordinator Will told of an aide to President Lincoln who thought, “There’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million (roughly $7 billion today), in gold mostly, that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062439\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062439\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00110_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features photos of village life for quicksilver miners and their families during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>This aide was thinking something along the lines of, “Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the Civil War?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, ‘Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me.’” Will said. The mine manager at the time, John Young, rallied the miners working for him by saying something akin to “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this,” Will said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young also fired off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former New Almaden manager who happened to be working inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Young warned the well-placed friend that the federal government was about to set off a destructive chain reaction across the West, at a moment when the Union depended on the support of California’s gold miners. There were people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Will thinks it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Has the mercury in San José caused environmental problems?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>You don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin and an environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of the mercury dug up at New Almaden \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/quest/17411/mercury-in-the-bay-part-1\">made its way downstream\u003c/a>, into the San Francisco Bay. Mining continued into the 1970s, and in 2002, scientists identified this mine as the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/tracking-a-toxic-trail-long-closed-mine-2709557.php\">single largest source\u003c/a> of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062445\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062445\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00255_TV-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A statue of a miner is featured at The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When we acquired the land in the mid-1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land,” Will said. “Under the furnace yards were pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar \u003ca href=\"https://dtsc.ca.gov/dtsc-oversees-environmental-cleanup-of-mercury-contaminated-park/\">cleanup effort\u003c/a> to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did get help from the state and federal agencies. Additional work and monitoring continue, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses and otherwise recreate.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Is it safe to eat fish from the San Francisco Bay?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>As recently as 10 years ago, two years into the big effort to clean up the Bay, \u003ca href=\"https://youtu.be/cpwQ5OFIZRQ?si=SP5B4deyax67I7iR&t=356\">KQED explored this question\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/cpwQ5OFIZRQ'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/cpwQ5OFIZRQ'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish, especially large fish, can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand,” the story said. “At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud. It may take more than 100 years for the Bay to recover.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment recommended that children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like \u003ca href=\"https://oehha.ca.gov/sites/default/files/media/downloads/advisories/fishadvisorysfbayreport2023.pdf\">sharks and striped bass\u003c/a>. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Has Cornish culture survived in the region?\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Our final listener question comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall, on the far southwest tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12062446\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12062446\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/10/251027-ALMADENQUICKSILVER00296_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The New Almaden Quicksilver Mining Museum features a Cinnabar display south of San Joséon Oct. 27, 2025. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Long filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 B.C.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A0U6kQNCN0\">Poldark,\u003c/a>” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s. But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed, and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There is a saying, ‘If you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman,’” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish pasty, which became, in Spanish, the paste. Over in \u003ca href=\"https://califcornishcousins.org/\">Grass Valley\u003c/a>, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“I just did a very cursory search of your phone book in San José, and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames,” Long said. Also on his trip to San José not too long ago, he spotted the \u003ca href=\"https://www.vta.org/go/stations/ohlone-chynoweth\">Ohlone-Chynoweth\u003c/a> station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Chynoweth in Cornish means ‘new house.’ So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A 1960 documentary collaboration entitled \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/casjhsj_000081\">Quicksilver!\u003c/a> noted that, even then, in the mid-20th century, the mine was fading into the mists of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, which have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Long has an idea related to his membership in a Cornish chorus. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/track/60i1cJcq1fCNgolbUc67Xn\">The Miners’ Anthem\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Long wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe to link up with a museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about,” Long said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This story starts with three things that don’t seem like they belong together: Cornish miners, mercury poisoning, and Abraham Lincoln. They are, however, all connected to a mine in the foothills south of San José. We’re talking about the Almaden Quicksilver mine. Its glory days are long gone, and so Bay Curious gets a lot of questions about it. KQED’s Rachael Myrow knows all sorts of things South Bay, so we called her up to answer some of your questions. Hey, Rachael!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Hey, Olivia!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So the Almaden Quicksilver mine sits in what is today Almaden Quicksilver County Park. I visited some years ago, and I remember a sprawling park with rolling hills. I think I went in the summertime, so it was very, very, very hot and quite dry. But I can’t say I remember the mine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> That could be because there’s not a lot of the mining apparatus left. But in its heyday, in the 19th century, 1,800 miners and their families populated these hills, primarily in a couple of self-contained villages. Imagine churches, saloons, a school, and much, much more. Now there’s just a few moldering cemeteries …and the old mine supervisor’s mansion, which has been turned into a museum, with really restricted hours. I’m going to guess it was closed when you hiked or drove past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Hmmm, yeah. Must have been. Now, over the years on Bay Curious, we have done quite a few stories that touch on the California Gold Rush, less about the Silver Rushes that followed, but really nothing about quicksilver. To be honest, I don’t even really know what quicksilver is …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>To be honest, Olivia, neither did I before reporting this story out. But mining it was a lucrative hustle during the Gold Rush.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, well, before we dive in, then, could we do a little quicksilver 101?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Of course! The South Bay is full of \u003cem>cinnabar\u003c/em>, a bright red rock the color of a stop sign. It formed 10-12 million years ago during a time of intense volcanic and hydrothermal activity. Chemically speaking, cinnabar is mercury bonded to sulfur. Mercury being a more proper name for quicksilver, by the way …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is really taking me back to high school chemistry class.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> As it should! And what do you remember about mercury, Olivia?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, well, it’s a liquid at room temperature, and that’s unusual for a metal. And it’s a silvery color…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> You’ve got it! To get mercury out of cinnabar, you heat the rocks up and the mercury essentially sweats out. Now, mercury was super important during the Gold Rush because it was used by gold and silver miners to extract the precious metals from the crushed rocks they were trapped in. Here’s Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, to explain further.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>So you pour your mercury over that sand. The mercury kind of grabs onto any precious metal. All the sand and other waste rock is left alone and left behind. And then you have — uh — looks kinda of like a silver putty. So it’s called an amalgam, and then you heat that amalgam to 1,076 degrees, the mercury vapor goes off into the air, and then you are left with your precious metal, which could be gold or silver. It usually looks like spun sugar, almost. It has all these holes where the mercury had been. So then you can take that spun gold, as we call it, and so you can make nuggets or even bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, I get it. And this stuff must have been in high demand after the Gold Rush kicked off in 1848. I imagine?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Exactly. In 1845, California is still a Mexican territory. A Mexican cavalry officer named Andrés Castillero was riding through these foothills when he noticed something unusual — a fiery red-orange paint that local Indigenous people were using on the walls of nearby missions. Castillero knew exactly what he was looking at. He knew that red paint had to have come from cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But how did he know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> At the time Castillero made his discovery, the world’s main source of mercury was in Almadén, Spain. So Spain controlled the supply. Which meant they could charge what they wanted. Castillero, just from reading the newspapers, would have understood mercury’s importance in economic terms. So when Castillero saw that cinnabar in 1845, he understood he was looking at a potential fortune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What was Castillero doing in San José anyway?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>He was sent by the Mexican government to catalogue strategic assets. Now, under Mexican law, officers and citizens could claim mines they discovered for themselves. So when Castillero saw the cinnabar, his life changed forever.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this brings us to one of our Almaden Quicksilver listener questions! It comes from Kiera O’Hara of Santa Clara, who joined you, Rachael, on her \u003cem>second\u003c/em> tour of the Almaden Quicksilver Museum. Second, because she first visited when she was seven or eight years old. The museum is a regular pit stop for South Bay school children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kiera O’Hara:\u003c/strong> What was the Civil War history behind the Almaden mercury mine in San José? I remember hearing Abraham Lincoln was involved?!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The museum sits in the Casa Grande, or big house, a 27-room Classical Revival mansion the mine’s superintendents used to live in. As you can imagine, it wasn’t long after Castillero discovered the cinnabar that other people wanted to take the mine from him, especially after the Gold Rush sent demand for quicksilver soaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So multiple parties, including private investors and mining companies, tried to claim the land, and the case went all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. In 1859, SCOTUS recognized Castillero’s claim, but the mine’s ownership remained split among several parties. And then in 1861, the U.S. Civil War started. And this is where we get to Kiera’s question, about whether Abraham Lincoln was involved.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>There was an aide to President Lincoln who went, “Oh, there’s enough questionability about who owns this land, so maybe it’s owned by the U.S. government.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Again, the quicksilver mine is an obvious money maker, and war is expensive. California gold was vital to the Union’s war effort, providing more than $170 million dollars in gold mostly that stabilized the federal currency and paid for roughly 10% of things like weapons and supplies. For those of you wondering, $170 million dollars in the 1860s would be worth roughly $7 billion dollars today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So this aide is thinking, ‘Why not claim the New Almaden mine and its profits for the Union side of the U.S. civil war?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And so he came down with a marshal and even a cavalry behind him to say, “Lincoln’s going to take over this mine. And, you know, you’re supposed to just surrender it to me, the aide.” Then, mine manager, John Young, said ‘no!’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>So, just put yourself in John Young’s shoes. Who the heck is this aide showing up all of a sudden with troops behind him and a half-baked plan to take over the mine, because says who?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>He got the miners and said, “If they take over the mines, you’re going to be out of a job. So come down with, you know, your best rifles and your guns and, you know, help me defend this.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>First, Young rallies his workers. And he fires off urgent telegraphs, not only to other mine operators across California, but to a former Almaden manager who now sits inside Lincoln’s administration.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>And said, “This is what’s happening out here. If he takes this mine, there’s the potential that he could take over every mine in California and the western United States.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Young was essentially saying, if the federal government seizes this mine, it could set off a chain reaction across the West, and at a moment when the Union depends on the support of California’s gold miners. There \u003cem>were\u003c/em> people in the state who sympathized with the South during the Civil War. So it would be really, really dumb to piss off Union supporters and drive them into the waiting arms of the Confederacy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kiera, our question asker, asked if Abraham Lincoln was involved. Lynda told us it’s possible Lincoln didn’t even know this whole fight was going on, given how distracted he was with the Civil War. Whatever the case, John Young’s quick thinking — his calculated warning framed as patriotism — stopped a bright idea from a government man that could have thrown California and the rest of the Western U.S. to the Confederate side.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we dig in on the environmental impacts of this mine. Plus a listener question about the miners who once worked there. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003cstrong>Sponsor Message\u003c/strong>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So we’ve learned that mercury comes from cinnabar. It was super valuable during the Gold Rush because it helps separate gold from ore. And there was a big kerfuffle over the ownership of the Almaden mine that could have changed California’s posture during the Civil War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Next, I want to touch on the environment … because you don’t have to be a geologist to know mercury is a neurotoxin, and a huge environmental hazard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Yes. Unfortunately, some of that mercury made its way downstream, into the San Francisco Bay. In 2002 — not that long ago — scientists identified \u003cem>this\u003c/em> mine as the single largest source of mercury in the Bay, making the fish unsafe to eat for humans and birds alike. I asked Lynda Will, parks program coordinator at Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation, about this very question …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lynda Will: \u003c/strong>I can tell you a little bit about it. Yeah. When we acquired the land in the mid-70s, 1970s, there was quite a bit of mercury contamination of the land. Under the furnace yards was, you know, pools of mercury. They had paved roads with cinnabar waste rock, which we call calcines. They had just dumped it over the sides of the hills. They had dumped it into the creeks. And so we have been remediating it ever since.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Local governments, including Santa Clara County, which purchased part of the mine property for parkland, found themselves partially on the hook for a multimillion-dollar cleanup effort to comply with the federal Clean Water Act. They did, I should mention, get help from the state and the feds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Is it safe for us to be in this park?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Additional work and monitoring continues, but authorities say it’s safe to picnic, hike, ride horses, et cetera.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And what about the fish in the Bay, can we eat them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Errr, that’s a different story, more complicated. As recently as 10 years ago, 2 years then into the big effort to clean up the Bay, KQED explored this very question. Let’s just say, they were still describing it as problematic, not just because of the direct legacy from mining days, but from stormwater runoff and air pollution. Because mercury converts into methylmercury, which bioaccumulates up the food chain, fish … especially large fish … can carry high levels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The Bay is slowly cleaning itself, washing 3,100 pounds a year out to sea, but because so much has built up over time, it needs a helping hand. … At a minimum, three generations will be impacted by the potent and long-lasting poison still lingering in the Bay mud.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So that old adage, “Don’t fish off the pier,” sounds like it remains true today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> Well, the longer-lived, big fish, especially. In 2023, California’s Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment, or OEHHA, recommended children and women of childbearing age steer clear of fish like sharks and striped bass. Ocean-going fish like Chinook salmon would be the safer bet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Alright, so that’s two questions dispatched. Let’s move on to question number three. It comes from Andrew Long, who lives all the way over in Cornwall — the county at the far south west tip of England. He came to the Bay Area some time ago to visit a relative and had some questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I’m Cornish from the U.K. I know of the Cornish Camp at the Alamaden Quicksilver Mine. It would be great to know if Cornish culture survived, and is growing, like it is here with our language.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew filled me in on the long, rich history of mining tin and copper in Cornwall, which extends all the way back to the early Bronze Age, circa 2200 BC.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some of you may be thinking about the British TV series “Poldark,” and you’d be in the right territory. There were more than 300 active mines in Cornwall in the 1860s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But by the late 19th century, the industry had largely collapsed … and Cornish miners left in droves, traveling across the world to places like New Almaden in search of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>So there is a saying, if you go to the bottom of a mine, a hole in the ground, at the bottom of it you’ll find a Cornishman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>They took a bit of Cornwall with them and left cultural evidence everywhere they went. In central Mexico, they introduced the Cornish \u003cem>pasty\u003c/em>, which became, in Spanish, the \u003cem>paste. \u003c/em>Over in Grass Valley, home to a lot of gold mining back in the day, there’s an annual Cornish Christmas Celebration. But in the South Bay, the history’s more subtle, almost hiding in plain sight. Like cinnabar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>I just did a very cursory search of your — the phone book in San José — and I saw a scattering of Cornish surnames.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish surnames like “Hicks” and even “Cornish.” Also, on his trip to San José, not too long ago, and he spotted a curious station sign for the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>There’s a station called Ohlone-Chy-NO-weth. Or CHIN-oh-weth, as you call it. Well, Chynoweth in Cornish means “new house.” So that got me thinking, well, there’s got to be a reason you have a Cornish name for a Cornish railway station in South San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>The two most prominent settlements at New Almaden were Spanish Town and English Camp, but that was really Cornish Camp, if you ask Andrew. Today, little remains of the area’s once-bustling village life. Aside from the large mansion that now houses the museum, the only hints are the nonnative cypress and poplar trees, and the spreading vinca ground cover … green survivors of gardens long since forgotten.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s a bit from a 1960 documentary collaboration I dug up between the Museum and Channel 11 News.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip from documentary: \u003c/strong>The international flavor of the old mining camp is shown by the names that survive. Manyales. Danielson. Castro. At one time, 26 nationalities were represented in New Almaden, and they helped fill two other cemeteries up on Mine Hill, that have long since been swept bare by souvenir hunters and the ravages of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Cornish culture has largely faded into the rearview mirror in the South Bay, but Andrew has an idea, related to his membership in a Cornish chorus called Barrett’s Privateers. The Cornish are big singers. Here’s Barrett’s Privateers singing The Miners’ Anthem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Clip of The Miners Anthem\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/strong>Andrew wants to take the band on tour to the South Bay, to reintroduce locals to our Cornish connections and light a fire under our interest in the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Andrew Long: \u003c/strong>Maybe to link up with the museum and do some promotional singing in shopping malls and that sort of stuff, to give people an idea that where they’re living has a history that is maybe something they never knew about.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Thanks to Andrew, Kiera and to you, Rachael.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/strong> My pleasure, as always!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the start of a month, and that means a new voting round is up at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Let’s hear your choices …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 1: Why is there a taco truck on every corner in San Francisco and San Mateo? They seem to have sprung up in the last year or two.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 2: Why are there huge fans over the tunnels near the Golden Gate Bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Voice 3: What’s the story with the abandoned cop car in front of the airport off 101? Everyone knows no actual cop is in it, so what’s the scoop with leaving it there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tally a vote for your favorite of those questions at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’ve still got space in our upcoming Bay Curious Trivia game. Snag some tickets for you and your friends at KQED.org/live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>Women have dramatically influenced San Francisco Bay Area history since before the Gold Rush, but their stories are often far less well known. Rae Alexandra’s new book, \u003ca href=\"https://citylights.com/city-lights-published/unsung-heroines35-women-who-changed/\">\u003cem>Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em> \u003c/a>shines a light on these untold stories, highlight these women’s impact on the social, cultural and political life of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8955735736&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rae Alexandra, an arts and culture reporter here at KQED was frustrated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>I think I learned there were no statues of women. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or, there were very few.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was 2018 and she had just found out that just 12 percent of San Francisco’s street names, statues, parks and public art honored women.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that made me angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Meanwhile, the names of important men were everywhere. Anza, Coit, Sutro, Sutter, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore. I could go on. So for Women’s History Month, she made a pledge to find and honor five women from local history to write about for KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that just in case somebody wants to add a statue later, they might have an easy list to look at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It seemed like a simple idea, but once she started looking, she found troves of stories to tell. Countless women whose impact on local life, culture, and politics was profound yet overlooked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then I kept dipping back in because I kept finding more women. Couple. I’ll just do another couple.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What started as a month-long project grew into an ongoing series, and now a book. It’s out this month. It’s called Unsung Heroines, 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area. Rae Alexandra is here to talk with us about it. Welcome, Rae. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I think for a long time, people would look back on history and see a lack of women and think, well, women weren’t able to participate. They often didn’t have as much education as their male counterparts. It’s no wonder they couldn’t contribute as much. But that isn’t really true, is it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People kept saying to me, well, San Francisco is a gold rush town, and maybe there just weren’t many women here, and maybe the women here weren’t in a position to do anything, and I just, it didn’t ring true to me. Because where there is life, there are women, and where there are woman, there are useful things being done. So I just didn’t believe it. And, of course, now that I’ve done the digging, that’s absolutely not true. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So many of the people who you profiled in this book are names that are new to me. And I work on a podcast that does a fair amount of history stories. How did you find these women and their stories? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was literally at one point g\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">oing through the indexes at the back of books and finding a woman who’d been mentioned twice and then trying to do some research on newspapers.com in newspaper archives to see, did they do anything else? And sometimes they did and sometimes they didn’t. The oral histories that libraries have online and archives have online were very useful. I was constantly looking, I got obsessive about looking for. Teeny-tiny plaques on the side of buildings. Is there a woman on that? Is there a woman that? So there were an awful lot of dead ends but when you find a good one it’s a real joy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you feel like this book, do you hope that it will create sort of a more complete history of the Bay Area? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Absolutely. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing that I found in the course of writing this is that now that the book has put the women in chronological order, you kind of do get an overview of the Bay Area from the very beginning up to the present day, and it does reflect the social and cultural events of our entire history. But once I started looking at even major events that we think we all know, like the 1906 earthquake, when you start looking at it from an individual working class woman’s perspective, it gave me a completely different idea of what that whole crisis was at the time. Breaking history down to small individual people is very different to hearing it from fancy historians perspective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I love that. And that’s part of what makes your book, I think, so compelling is really, you know, looking at everything through that individual female lens. Yeah. I’d love to get into one of these stories now. Can you tell us about Tianfu Wu, whose contributions in Chinatown have led San Francisco city leaders to rename a street in her honor just this month? So this is very topical.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was trafficked from China in the early 1890s. She was sold by her father to pay off gambling debts. She wasn’t told anything that was happening. She was just, she was told that she was gonna be going to visit her grandmother. She was dropped off, put in a boat. She was left with her supper and a toothbrush and her father just said, you know, stay here, be quiet, didn’t say goodbye. And that was it and she never saw her family again. And it wasn’t for lack of trying years later, she did try and track them down and was unable to. And she found herself in San Francisco. She was under the age of 10 at the time. She was basically a domestic slave and the second place that she found herself was a gambling den and the owner of that gambling den was very physically abusive to her. So she wound up getting rescued in 1894 by a group of Presbyterian missionaries who operated out of the Occidental Mission House. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I found a newspaper report about it, and the reporters said that she was in such a bad way that the police officers who were escorting the missionaries had tears in their eyes when they found her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what was the Occidental Mission home? What was their larger purpose at the time?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11700225 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2018/10/10062018_AW_GhostStory_103-e1540151366310.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, it was literally taking in children and young women, because what happened to the trafficked children is that once they reached a certain age, once they got to be adolescents, then they’re sold into the brothel system. And the girls working in the brothels had very short life expectancies because of what they were coping with physically. So the missionaries would take the girls. They were giving them Christian educations. There was an element here of trying to rescue these people from a life of sin, as they saw it. But they were educated, they were housed, they had playtime. So Tien ended up going there. She was raised in the mission house. Within about 15 months of her being there, there was a new superintendent who came in named Donaldina Cameron. And she became a mentor and a teacher to Tien. When Tien was little and she first got there and Donaldina was quite a strict teacher and Tien was quite strong-willed, they would butt heads a lot. And they somehow met in the middle. And it became a very mother-daughter relationship. And the two of them wound up, as Tien reached her teens, they wound up working together. She started off as Donaldina’s aide, just because Donaldina needed a translator. She didn’t speak Chinese. And when they were on rescue missions, it was really important that someone be able to communicate clearly with the poor girls in these situations. The two started working more and more closely together. She was going on rescue mission. She was a travel guardian for any girls trying to get out of the country. She went to court against brothel owners, which was extremely dangerous. She got death threats all the time. And she even, as the girls got older and were trying to leave the home, she would even vet fiancees. She’d bring in the grooms and interview them about whether or not they were appropriate and financially stable enough for her young ones. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Truly an auntie in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>They called her Auntie Wu. Donaldina retired at a certain point and Tien basically took over the whole running of the Mission House. She was working as a fundraiser as well by that point. She didn’t retire until 1951 and at the time that she did retire from the Mission House, Donaldina was living down in Palo Alto and offered Tien the cottage next door to hers that she also owned and they lived side by side for the rest of their and they’re even buried next to each other. In Los Angeles, which I think is quite remarkable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, quite a partner o\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ver many, many years, and get us to modern times. I mean, Tien was an unsung heroine, perhaps getting a little bit of flowers now. What’s happening with her naming in the city? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, t\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he old Mission House is still at 920 Sacramento Street, they still work with women dealing with domestic violence every day. I mean, if you go in there in the afternoon, it’s full of kids having the time of their lives. They’re still doing great work. And last year, at the end of last summer, the manager of special projects at Cameron House, her name’s Leanne Mar came up with the idea of trying to get a street named after Tien And then they roped in District 3 Supervisor Daniel Sauter. And they now, the street behind the mission house where all of the children used to play is now named for Tien. It’s part of Joy Street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we come back, we meet another unsung heroine from Bay Area history. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Rae, last night I attended one of your book launch events, a night of bingo here at KQED, where you told stories of the unsung heroines between each round. It was super fun, even though I didn’t win a single game, and I’m a little salty about it. But of the women you spoke about, one that especially stuck with me was the story of Charlotte Brown, who you suggested should be as much of a household name as Rosa Parks. Can you tell us about her? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12069545 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/HAZEL_S-BUILDING_1966-KQED.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Charlotte L. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Brown. I can’t remember how I stumbled across her exactly but as soon as I found her I was like why? Why do we not know who this woman is? And I do think that there was an active effort to erase her in some ways. So Charlotte took San Francisco’s omnibus railroad and cable company to court all the way back in 1863. So that’s almost a full century before Rosa Parks and it’s two years before slavery was officially abolished by the 13th amendment. So she was way ahead of her time. And taking on a large company at a time when black people only made up 2% of San Francisco’s population, this was really scary. But she had been traveling in April of 1863. She already had a ticket. She got onto the streetcar. And a conductor told her that she could not be there because there were white passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In your book you included some of her affidavit that she presented in court. Could you read from that so we can kind of hear her voice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra reading: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I lived one block from where I took the car. When the conductor first came to me and refused to take my ticket, I told him I thought I had a right to ride. It was a public conveyance. I told him I had long distance to go. I told him I would not get out. He took hold of my arm. I made no resistance. I knew it was of no use to resist. And therefore I went out and he kept hold of me until I was out of the car, holding on to me until I struck the walk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She went home and she told her family and she had really formidable parents. Her father, James E. Brown, had been enslaved until her mother, Charlotte Sr., who was a seamstress, had raised enough money to buy his freedom. So these were two both very determined people. And so her father and her took the cable car company to court and they won. And then her award got reduced to five cents, which was just the cost of the ticket. At the end of that, she got removed from another bus. So she and her father went back to court, and that time they had a much more sympathetic judge and she wound up winning $500. It was a definitive win.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I love how bold it is. Like you’ve just finished this long drawn out court case with Omnibus Railroad, and then you go a couple of days later and you get back on the railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They just were not having it. This family was not having it. They knew that somebody had to stand up and do something about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what impact did this case ultimately have on the ability for black people to ride streetcars in San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Honestly, it kind of didn’t help. That problem persisted. People of color continued to be removed from cable cars for many years afterwards. there wasn’t a state ban on street car segregation until 1893. Thirty years after Charlotte brought her case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The book, by the way, is beautiful. I don’t know what this texture is on the cover, but it’s very pleasing to touch. Along with your 35 profiles, there were very nice illustrations of most of the women in the book. What was the process like to create those illustrations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Adrienne Simms is a fine artist and illustrator. And I am astonished by what I gave her and what she produced from it, because one of the biggest challenges for this entire series was finding usable images. Sometimes that was impossible. Sometimes it’s me making a copy of a copy of a newspaper that’s 120 years old. So I was giving her like the worst, grainiest images in some cases, and she just sat with them and got to know the women and managed to, I think, give them the shine that they’ve deserved this whole time. I found it very moving to see her illustrations for the first time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, it adds such a nice layer to be able to read these stories that have kind of been forgotten, but also see these women’s faces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some of these women I’m seeing for the first time with these illustrations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rae Alexandra, congratulations on your book.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so much, Olivia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you for coming to talk to us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rae’s new book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://citylights.com/city-lights-published/unsung-heroines35-women-who-changed/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, is available wherever books are sold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We are partway through our limited experiment with dropping two episodes each week, and we’d love to know, what do you think? Write to us at Baycurious at kqed.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious Trivia is coming up on April 8th. Join us at KQED’s headquarters for a rousing game of trivia, where all the questions are related to the Nine County Bay Area. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6151\">Tickets and details at kqed.org/live. \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support shows like Bay Curious and projects like Rae’s Rebel Girls series with a donation at kqed.org slash donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQed podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Ellen-Price. I hope you have a great day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "San Francisco Bay Area history is full of women who had a powerful impact on the social, cultural and political life here. Rae Alexandra's new book Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area highlights the little known stories of these women.",
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"headline": "Unsung Heroines: Rebel Girls of the Bay Area",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Women have dramatically influenced San Francisco Bay Area history since before the Gold Rush, but their stories are often far less well known. Rae Alexandra’s new book, \u003ca href=\"https://citylights.com/city-lights-published/unsung-heroines35-women-who-changed/\">\u003cem>Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/em> \u003c/a>shines a light on these untold stories, highlight these women’s impact on the social, cultural and political life of the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8955735736&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rae Alexandra, an arts and culture reporter here at KQED was frustrated.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>I think I learned there were no statues of women. \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Or, there were very few.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was 2018 and she had just found out that just 12 percent of San Francisco’s street names, statues, parks and public art honored women.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that made me angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Meanwhile, the names of important men were everywhere. Anza, Coit, Sutro, Sutter, Polk, Taylor, Fillmore. I could go on. So for Women’s History Month, she made a pledge to find and honor five women from local history to write about for KQED.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that just in case somebody wants to add a statue later, they might have an easy list to look at.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It seemed like a simple idea, but once she started looking, she found troves of stories to tell. Countless women whose impact on local life, culture, and politics was profound yet overlooked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then I kept dipping back in because I kept finding more women. Couple. I’ll just do another couple.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What started as a month-long project grew into an ongoing series, and now a book. It’s out this month. It’s called Unsung Heroines, 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area. Rae Alexandra is here to talk with us about it. Welcome, Rae. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I think for a long time, people would look back on history and see a lack of women and think, well, women weren’t able to participate. They often didn’t have as much education as their male counterparts. It’s no wonder they couldn’t contribute as much. But that isn’t really true, is it? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People kept saying to me, well, San Francisco is a gold rush town, and maybe there just weren’t many women here, and maybe the women here weren’t in a position to do anything, and I just, it didn’t ring true to me. Because where there is life, there are women, and where there are woman, there are useful things being done. So I just didn’t believe it. And, of course, now that I’ve done the digging, that’s absolutely not true. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So many of the people who you profiled in this book are names that are new to me. And I work on a podcast that does a fair amount of history stories. How did you find these women and their stories? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was literally at one point g\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">oing through the indexes at the back of books and finding a woman who’d been mentioned twice and then trying to do some research on newspapers.com in newspaper archives to see, did they do anything else? And sometimes they did and sometimes they didn’t. The oral histories that libraries have online and archives have online were very useful. I was constantly looking, I got obsessive about looking for. Teeny-tiny plaques on the side of buildings. Is there a woman on that? Is there a woman that? So there were an awful lot of dead ends but when you find a good one it’s a real joy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you feel like this book, do you hope that it will create sort of a more complete history of the Bay Area? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Absolutely. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The thing that I found in the course of writing this is that now that the book has put the women in chronological order, you kind of do get an overview of the Bay Area from the very beginning up to the present day, and it does reflect the social and cultural events of our entire history. But once I started looking at even major events that we think we all know, like the 1906 earthquake, when you start looking at it from an individual working class woman’s perspective, it gave me a completely different idea of what that whole crisis was at the time. Breaking history down to small individual people is very different to hearing it from fancy historians perspective.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I love that. And that’s part of what makes your book, I think, so compelling is really, you know, looking at everything through that individual female lens. Yeah. I’d love to get into one of these stories now. Can you tell us about Tianfu Wu, whose contributions in Chinatown have led San Francisco city leaders to rename a street in her honor just this month? So this is very topical.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was trafficked from China in the early 1890s. She was sold by her father to pay off gambling debts. She wasn’t told anything that was happening. She was just, she was told that she was gonna be going to visit her grandmother. She was dropped off, put in a boat. She was left with her supper and a toothbrush and her father just said, you know, stay here, be quiet, didn’t say goodbye. And that was it and she never saw her family again. And it wasn’t for lack of trying years later, she did try and track them down and was unable to. And she found herself in San Francisco. She was under the age of 10 at the time. She was basically a domestic slave and the second place that she found herself was a gambling den and the owner of that gambling den was very physically abusive to her. So she wound up getting rescued in 1894 by a group of Presbyterian missionaries who operated out of the Occidental Mission House. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I found a newspaper report about it, and the reporters said that she was in such a bad way that the police officers who were escorting the missionaries had tears in their eyes when they found her. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what was the Occidental Mission home? What was their larger purpose at the time?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I mean, it was literally taking in children and young women, because what happened to the trafficked children is that once they reached a certain age, once they got to be adolescents, then they’re sold into the brothel system. And the girls working in the brothels had very short life expectancies because of what they were coping with physically. So the missionaries would take the girls. They were giving them Christian educations. There was an element here of trying to rescue these people from a life of sin, as they saw it. But they were educated, they were housed, they had playtime. So Tien ended up going there. She was raised in the mission house. Within about 15 months of her being there, there was a new superintendent who came in named Donaldina Cameron. And she became a mentor and a teacher to Tien. When Tien was little and she first got there and Donaldina was quite a strict teacher and Tien was quite strong-willed, they would butt heads a lot. And they somehow met in the middle. And it became a very mother-daughter relationship. And the two of them wound up, as Tien reached her teens, they wound up working together. She started off as Donaldina’s aide, just because Donaldina needed a translator. She didn’t speak Chinese. And when they were on rescue missions, it was really important that someone be able to communicate clearly with the poor girls in these situations. The two started working more and more closely together. She was going on rescue mission. She was a travel guardian for any girls trying to get out of the country. She went to court against brothel owners, which was extremely dangerous. She got death threats all the time. And she even, as the girls got older and were trying to leave the home, she would even vet fiancees. She’d bring in the grooms and interview them about whether or not they were appropriate and financially stable enough for her young ones. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Truly an auntie in that way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>They called her Auntie Wu. Donaldina retired at a certain point and Tien basically took over the whole running of the Mission House. She was working as a fundraiser as well by that point. She didn’t retire until 1951 and at the time that she did retire from the Mission House, Donaldina was living down in Palo Alto and offered Tien the cottage next door to hers that she also owned and they lived side by side for the rest of their and they’re even buried next to each other. In Los Angeles, which I think is quite remarkable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, quite a partner o\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ver many, many years, and get us to modern times. I mean, Tien was an unsung heroine, perhaps getting a little bit of flowers now. What’s happening with her naming in the city? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, t\u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">he old Mission House is still at 920 Sacramento Street, they still work with women dealing with domestic violence every day. I mean, if you go in there in the afternoon, it’s full of kids having the time of their lives. They’re still doing great work. And last year, at the end of last summer, the manager of special projects at Cameron House, her name’s Leanne Mar came up with the idea of trying to get a street named after Tien And then they roped in District 3 Supervisor Daniel Sauter. And they now, the street behind the mission house where all of the children used to play is now named for Tien. It’s part of Joy Street. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we come back, we meet another unsung heroine from Bay Area history. Stick around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Rae, last night I attended one of your book launch events, a night of bingo here at KQED, where you told stories of the unsung heroines between each round. It was super fun, even though I didn’t win a single game, and I’m a little salty about it. But of the women you spoke about, one that especially stuck with me was the story of Charlotte Brown, who you suggested should be as much of a household name as Rosa Parks. Can you tell us about her? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Charlotte L. \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Brown. I can’t remember how I stumbled across her exactly but as soon as I found her I was like why? Why do we not know who this woman is? And I do think that there was an active effort to erase her in some ways. So Charlotte took San Francisco’s omnibus railroad and cable company to court all the way back in 1863. So that’s almost a full century before Rosa Parks and it’s two years before slavery was officially abolished by the 13th amendment. So she was way ahead of her time. And taking on a large company at a time when black people only made up 2% of San Francisco’s population, this was really scary. But she had been traveling in April of 1863. She already had a ticket. She got onto the streetcar. And a conductor told her that she could not be there because there were white passengers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In your book you included some of her affidavit that she presented in court. Could you read from that so we can kind of hear her voice?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra reading: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I lived one block from where I took the car. When the conductor first came to me and refused to take my ticket, I told him I thought I had a right to ride. It was a public conveyance. I told him I had long distance to go. I told him I would not get out. He took hold of my arm. I made no resistance. I knew it was of no use to resist. And therefore I went out and he kept hold of me until I was out of the car, holding on to me until I struck the walk. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She went home and she told her family and she had really formidable parents. Her father, James E. Brown, had been enslaved until her mother, Charlotte Sr., who was a seamstress, had raised enough money to buy his freedom. So these were two both very determined people. And so her father and her took the cable car company to court and they won. And then her award got reduced to five cents, which was just the cost of the ticket. At the end of that, she got removed from another bus. So she and her father went back to court, and that time they had a much more sympathetic judge and she wound up winning $500. It was a definitive win.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I love how bold it is. Like you’ve just finished this long drawn out court case with Omnibus Railroad, and then you go a couple of days later and you get back on the railroad.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They just were not having it. This family was not having it. They knew that somebody had to stand up and do something about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what impact did this case ultimately have on the ability for black people to ride streetcars in San Francisco?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Honestly, it kind of didn’t help. That problem persisted. People of color continued to be removed from cable cars for many years afterwards. there wasn’t a state ban on street car segregation until 1893. Thirty years after Charlotte brought her case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The book, by the way, is beautiful. I don’t know what this texture is on the cover, but it’s very pleasing to touch. Along with your 35 profiles, there were very nice illustrations of most of the women in the book. What was the process like to create those illustrations?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Adrienne Simms is a fine artist and illustrator. And I am astonished by what I gave her and what she produced from it, because one of the biggest challenges for this entire series was finding usable images. Sometimes that was impossible. Sometimes it’s me making a copy of a copy of a newspaper that’s 120 years old. So I was giving her like the worst, grainiest images in some cases, and she just sat with them and got to know the women and managed to, I think, give them the shine that they’ve deserved this whole time. I found it very moving to see her illustrations for the first time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, it adds such a nice layer to be able to read these stories that have kind of been forgotten, but also see these women’s faces.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some of these women I’m seeing for the first time with these illustrations. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rae Alexandra, congratulations on your book.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so much, Olivia. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you for coming to talk to us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rae Alexandra:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Thank you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rae’s new book, \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://citylights.com/city-lights-published/unsung-heroines35-women-who-changed/\">\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unsung Heroines: 35 Women Who Changed the Bay Area\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, is available wherever books are sold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We are partway through our limited experiment with dropping two episodes each week, and we’d love to know, what do you think? Write to us at Baycurious at kqed.org. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious Trivia is coming up on April 8th. Join us at KQED’s headquarters for a rousing game of trivia, where all the questions are related to the Nine County Bay Area. \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6151\">Tickets and details at kqed.org/live. \u003c/a>\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support shows like Bay Curious and projects like Rae’s Rebel Girls series with a donation at kqed.org slash donate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQed podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Ellen-Price. I hope you have a great day.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "who-is-the-bear-on-the-california-flag-a-story-bigger-than-one-legend",
"title": "Who Is the Bear on the California Flag? A Story Bigger Than One Legend",
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"headTitle": "Who Is the Bear on the California Flag? A Story Bigger Than One Legend | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many state flags stick to geometric designs. Wyoming has a buffalo, Louisiana has a pelican. But the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day when he found an unexpected story behind it, one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on California’s flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as he looked into the history further, Karn started to have doubts. He noticed some inconsistencies in the story that made him question whether Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>California used to have thousands of grizzlies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the Gold Rush, historians estimate there were \u003ca href=\"https://nhmlac.org/california-grizzly-bear#:~:text=Some%20have%20estimated%20that%20California,skins%20and%20skeletons%20in%20existence.\">10,000 grizzly bears\u003c/a> in California, living alongside hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Spanish ranchers and then gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s portrayed the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers, even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076801\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076801\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1339\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is often said that the bear on the modern California state flag is based on “Monarch,” one of the last grizzly bears to live in the state. But researchers now believe it was based on the drawing of another bear, Samson. \u003ccite>(Joseph Sohm/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You see the bear being really cast as this obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people,” said Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance. “As something that has to be done away with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bounties on grizzlies became common. Ranchers often put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Monarch the bear’s infamous life\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, William Randolph Hearst landed back in his hometown of San Francisco, where his father gave him a small newspaper called the \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He was in his 20s and thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture one of the last California grizzly bears and bring it back to San Francisco alive. So, he tasked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, with the assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. But he strapped on a bandolier of ammunition and struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076803\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076803\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The taxidermied form of Monarch the bear is part of an exhibit called California: State of Nature on display at the California Academy of Sciences. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With help from local hunters, Kelly spent months hiking around the mountains looking for bears with no luck. But eventually, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp and walked into one of the traps he had set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least, that’s how \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/460837694/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">Kelly reported\u003c/a> it in the \u003cem>Examiner \u003c/em>at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Gandy thinks there was no trap. “[Monarch] was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sure enough, Kelly later \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076813\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076813\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"480\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An 1875 image of Woodward’s Gardens, an attraction that was open in the Mission District from 1866 to 189. It featured a museum, art gallery, zoo, rides and more. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Kelly called the bear “Monarch,” as an advertisement for the \u003cem>Examiner\u003c/em>, which had the slogan: “The Monarch of the Dailies.” He brought Monarch, via sled, wagon and train, to a place called Woodward’s Garden in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800’s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/Woodward%27s_Gardens,_c._1860s\">Woodward’s Garden \u003c/a>was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides and an 8-foot-3-inch-tall man who was billed as a giant. It was kind of a carnival, and a sign of its times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch stayed there for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it. Then he was moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fair, called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/California_Midwinter_Fair_of_1894:_An_Orientalist_Exposition\">California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894\u003c/a>, took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display — real people — in a village of papier-mache igloos. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/sfhistory/article/the-racist-fair-that-almost-ruined-golden-gate-16770528.php\">There was a Japanese village\u003c/a>, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear — Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie — where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now. The menagerie had bison, kangaroos, elk, an aviary and now a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could walk up to the enclosure [and] stick your arm in if you wanted to,” said Rebekah Kim, head librarian at the California Academy of Sciences. “You could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076816\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076816\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young guest inspects Monarch the bear, on view for the first time since 2012 at Cal Academy’s “California: State of Nature” exhibition. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars,” said Kim, referencing a historic photograph of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, at nothing. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At that point, he was very overweight; he was paralyzed,” said Kim, “Their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies, and for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, scientists believed them to be extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How California ended up with a bear on its flag\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about 30 American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation: “the California Republic.” They said the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076800\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1474px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076800\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1474\" height=\"848\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg 1474w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1474px) 100vw, 1474px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">This 1855 illustration of the grizzly bear, Samson, was made by artist Charles Nahl. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The bear on that flag bore little resemblance to our current flag’s bear. “[It looks like] maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell,” Kim said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The independent republic didn’t last; California soon became part of the United States. The bear flag stuck around, but everybody was drawing it in a different way. Some versions had the bear standing up, on others it was perched up at the top of the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1911, California adopted the bear flag as its state flag, and the legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and dark brown. In 1953, the state decided to standardize the flag further and try to make the bear look more like a bear, rather than a wolf or a pig. A zoologist was brought in to advise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076799\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1099px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12076799 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1099\" height=\"621\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg 1099w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1099px) 100vw, 1099px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of an illustration showing the raising of the Bear Flag over Sonoma, June 14, 1846. The California Republic flag, complete with grizzly bear, star and stripe, is being raised on the pole. In the background is the home of General Vallejo, an army barracks and a church. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Here’s where the urban legend begins. Many sources report that since all the California grizzlies were dead by then, the flag’s artist used the taxidermied form of Monarch, which was even then on display at the California Academy of Sciences, as a reference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Kim doesn’t buy it. She studied the relevant historical documents, especially the correspondence between the zoologist and the flag’s artist. \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/flag-correspondence.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">According to the letters\u003c/a>, the men used as their main reference a different grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. It had several live grizzlies chained to the floor, as well as elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was a massive grizzly named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A painter called Charles Nahl made illustrations for \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/adventuresofjame00hittrich/page/n9/mode/2up\">a book\u003c/a> about Adams, and one of his paintings was of \u003ca href=\"https://bancroftlibrarycara.wordpress.com/nahl_grizzly_monterey_image_cropped/\">Samson\u003c/a>. It’s \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting, of Samson, that was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The California grizzly’s undeserved reputation\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Not only did Monarch’s story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable and the recovery of them is impossible,” said Peter Alagona, a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together with a team of researchers, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. He found startling results.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076817\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076817\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fran Ritchie of the California Academy of Sciences works to restore Monarch’s fur. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It turns out, California grizzlies were mostly vegetarian and averaged around 500 pounds, much smaller than the monstrous sizes attributed to them. Perhaps most surprisingly, they are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct,” said Alagona. “They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state.[aside postID=news_12076077 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251212-JET-PLAYGROUND-MD-09-KQED.jpg']He’s aware that to many people this sounds like a very bad idea. But the concept is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They do a lot of amazing things,” he said. “They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alagona’s research suggests that with sufficient numbers and time, grizzlies could even change the state’s vegetation and create firebreaks. But to him, the most important benefit is less tangible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re more about imagination,” Alagona said. “They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out of the 50 states that make up the union, California is considered pretty cool. We’ve got the good weather, the stunning coastline, those laid-back vibes. And we’ve definitely got a cool state flag. If you’ve looked at other flags, many stick to geometric designs. Wyoming does have a buffalo. Louisiana’s got a pelican. But California? Our flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I like to read a lot, and whenever I read, I like to, um, go off on tangents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He found an unexpected story behind it — one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on our flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of California’s last grizzlies, captured in the mountains and then put on display in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of deep dived into Monarch the bear. I was fascinated by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mark has always had a passion for wild animals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I was born in Nigeria and grew up in South Africa. I love looking at nature in its wild state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a teenager, he would take a book out to a remote watering hole where he’d read and wait for animals to come and drink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>And I used to see a little, uh, a duiker. A duiker is a very small antelope. I used to watch the duiker come and, and drink water at the water hole. Definitely one of my most memorable moments, and you know, my happy memories. \u003cem>(Laughs.)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, Mark was dismayed to learn that Monarch, this big, powerful grizzly, was kept behind bars for most of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of cringe at animals in zoos. You know, they supposedly live longer, but to me there’s a, a beauty that they lack when they’re in a cage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And while he was doing his own research, he noticed some inconsistencies in Monarch’s story that made him question if Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag. So he reached out to \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>The bear on the California flag, is it the actual Monarch the Bear that they claim it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To find out if it really was, and to sort through some of the other legends around the bear, reporter Katherine Monahan went to meet Monarch. Or rather, his taxidermied form, more than a century old, on display at the California Academy of Sciences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of chatter and kids in an echoey space\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a weekday afternoon, and the academy is packed with kids and families, mostly checking out the aquarium or the T-rex. They don’t all head for this dimly lit corner of the California exhibit. But those who do\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Wow. That is crazy. Man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Get to see a California grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>Did you know we had grizzly bears?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 3: \u003c/strong>We don’t have ’em anymore, do we?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is powerful-looking, with a muscular hump above his shoulders. He’s dark and shaggy and bigger than a black bear for sure, but not nearly as big as, say, a two-ton polar bear. His claws, though\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>They look lethal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They’re easily as long as my fingers. There’s a cast paw print where people can put their own hand in to compare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 4: \u003c/strong>Go put your hand in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 5: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. That’s just the palm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is standing flat on all fours with kind of a Mona Lisa smile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 6: \u003c/strong>Was he old?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He looks peaceful. But then, he is taxidermied, quite literally a puppet. And we could have made him look however we wanted. Which, in many ways, is what we did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> So much of what we know about grizzlies is a myth. It’s fictitious, it’s fear-based.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says it’s estimated there were ten thousand grizzly bears in the state before the California Gold Rush. And, hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s very abundantly clear that they not only existed alongside grizzlies, but they thrived with grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But the Spanish ranchers and then the gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s saw the bears differently. They told sensational stories that featured the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers — even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>You see the bear being really cast as this, um, obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people, and as something that, you know, has to be done away with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bounties on grizzlies became common. Mostly, they were killed with poison. Ranchers put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s a time of extreme ecological degradation, and you start to get this romanticism for the West, this romantic notion of Native Americans and wildlife. And Monarch falls right into that narrative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Enter William Randolph Hearst. In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, he landed back in his hometown of San Francisco. Where his father gave him a small newspaper called the San Francisco Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Hearst is leading this new wave of journalism that has a lot of sensationalism tied to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He was about 25 years old. And he thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture a live grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So he asked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, to do it. Kelly clearly got right into character, as you can see in his portrait from the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He has these bandoliers of ammunition on both sides of his chest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s just like he’s trying to be Rambo. You’re like, what are you doing, dude?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. So when he struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left, he hired local helpers. They were happy to oblige.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>A man coming from San Francisco with a blank check from one of the richest men in California to go on a bear hunt? That sounds absolutely great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They led this city-slicker journalist around in circles, all the while camping and eating well and seeing plenty of bear sign, but not trapping any bears. Kelly eventually caught on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He starts to realize that all these grizzly bear tracks that he’s seeing are actually probably not being made by a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So he fired his crew. But by then he’d been gone for five months, and he was getting desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Like, I need a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Just then, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp, conquered a cinnamon bear called Six-Toed Pete in an epic moonlit battle, and walked into his trap. At least, that’s how Kelly reported it in the Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>A great ripping and tearing was heard going on inside. The Monarch was caught at last. Upon the approach of men, the grizzly became furious and made the heavy logs tremble and shake in his efforts to get out and resent the indignity that had been put upon him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But Gandy thinks there was no trap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos. And when they’re able to use four different horses to pull the bear’s arms and legs in four different directions, you have a bear that basically is stuck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> About fifteen years later, Kelly \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regardless, he still had to transport it to San Francisco. Which he reports in swashbuckling, self-aggrandizing detail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>The Monarch was now bound, gagged, and utterly helpless, but he never ceased roaring with rage at his captors and struggling to get just one swipe at them with his paw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Naming the bear “Monarch” was kind of an advertisement for the Examiner, which had the slogan “The Monarch of the Dailies.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly describes how the grizzly broke his teeth trying to gnaw through his chains. How he tied Monarch to a kind of sled and hauled him down the mountain, and then built a cage and mounted it on a wagon and then a train for San Francisco … to a place called Woodward’s Garden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800’s, Woodward’s Garden was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides, an eight foot three inch tall man who was billed as a giant . . . It was kind of a carnival. And a sign of its time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They had, like, live bears jumping from like a diving board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Whoa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, and then bears in captivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Examiner covered Monarch’s arrival at the garden with great drama: how one of the black bears died of fright when he arrived. How he tore through his cage into the hyena enclosure and rolled up sheets of iron like they were paper. How he was the only grizzly bear in captivity (which is not true. There was another one at the Oregon Zoo). How he weighed a thousand pounds (also not true).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of chatter at the Academy of Sciences\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Back at Monarch’s taxidermy display, we talk about how the fabled massiveness of grizzly bears was yet another tall tale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> I have never seen a grizzly, and I thought they’d be a lot bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No, actually, technically. Monarch is a little overweight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim explains that despite grizzlies’ reputation for being huge and vicious\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They were mostly vegan. And they probably weighed close to like 500 ish pounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Why would you bother being vegan with a body like that? Look at those claws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>I don’t know. I mean, and that’s the thing, it’s like a dispelling a myth. I think California grizzlies were hunted down because they were thought to be, um, apex predators and a threat to livestock and people, but they really weren’t going after those things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It turns out the claws, along with the muscular hump on the shoulders, are really for digging. Grizzlies are omnivores, and eat mostly vegetarian. In captivity, however,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Monarch’s diet consisted of biscuits, sugar, peanuts, not his natural diet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> No wonder he is portly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>He is. He was like, um, I don’t know exactly, around 900 pounds. So double the normal size of a grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch stayed in Woodward’s Garden for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And then he moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park as part of like the 49 ERs camp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Wait a second. \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/457584756/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">As a live bear. He was in the World Fair?\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he was. There’s, oh, I have a picture somewhere. He’s like in a pit. It’s actually really sad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The 1894 World’s Fair took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display, real people, in a village of papier-mache igloos. There was a Japanese village, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear. Here’s, once again, the San Francisco Examiner:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>Monarch, the Examiner bear, is a wild and untamed beast, and has not yet been told that one of the lion tribe is likely to invade his home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Fairgoers were clamouring for a lion to be dropped into Monarch’s concrete pit so they’d fight. But the fair managers, in a rare moment of good taste, refused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the World’s Fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie, where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could see a bunch of different animals. It was free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> This was the late 1800s, well before the San Francisco Zoo, and really before any real understanding of how to run a zoo. The park had bison, as it still does, but also kangaroos and elk and an aviary. And a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could walk up to the enclosure, stick your arm in if you wanted to. Um, and you could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of historic photos. You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> She shows me one of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, into nothing. After the first decade, his keepers became concerned by his apparent depression and brought a female grizzly called Montana Babe. Over time, they had several cubs. Some of them died. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>At that point. He was very overweight, he was like paralyzed and not moving, and so the, I think their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies. And for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, they were extinct … or so we believed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we come back, we turn to Mark’s question. \u003cem>Is Monarch\u003c/em> the bear on the California flag? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we come to the question of our state flag, featuring a strong and proud-looking grizzly bear. Our question asker, Mark Karn, wanted to know if, as the legend goes, \u003cem>Monarch\u003c/em> is the bear on the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Katherine Monahan again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The history of the bear flag goes way back – to before California was even a state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about thirty American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation. The California Republic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of their flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>The first one is just like a silhouette of a. You think maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To the rebels, the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.” Their new republic didn’t last – California soon became part of the United States. But the bear flag stuck around. Only everybody was drawing it in a different way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s another variation where the bear is up on its hind legs and kind of standing up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1911, California decided to make it the state flag. And the state legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and it must be dark brown\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>But there are no specific specifications about what it’s supposed to look like, so then, depending on the printer, you can get a different version.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So, in 1953, the legislature decided we needed to standardize the flag and try to make the bear look more reliably like a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And so there is a zoologist who is an expert on California grizzlies, who’s sort of informing the designer about how to change the image to make it less like either a wolf or like a pig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The problem was, all the California grizzlies were dead by then. So what could the artist look at for a reference? The taxidermied form of Monarch could have been helpful, and there is a 1953 article in the San Francisco Chronicle that suggests it was part of the process. But Kim doesn’t buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No. Looking at the historical documents of the illustrator. All the back and forth is not about Monarch. The references he uses is a different illustration and some, um, images of other grizzlies in other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So it’s. Kind of an urban legend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>It is, and it is perpetuated by lots of sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim herself was one of them, until she did this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong> I was like, oh no, I’ve told people, like I’ve told the wrong thing to people. Cause that has been the narrative that we’ve been fed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The real model for the California state flag, as it turns out, was Samson, another famous grizzly that spent time in San Francisco long before Monarch showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. A newspaper reporter described a dingy basement with several live grizzlies chained to the floor. There were also elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping:\u003c/strong> At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was the monster grizzly Samson. He was an immense creature weighing some three-quarters of a ton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> A painter called Charles Nahl made a detailed portrait of Samson. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting of \u003cem>that\u003c/em> bear was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>The entire story was, was wrong in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Pete Alagona is a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara. He says not only did \u003cem>Monarch’s \u003c/em>story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>And the most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable, and the recovery of them is impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To get closer to the truth, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. His team found startling results. It turns out California grizzlies are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct. They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Now, Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state. The idea is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> You are aware that to a lot of people, the idea of reintroducing grizzlies sounds pretty nuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>Um, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> What’s, what’s your response to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>So, you know, when I started this project, it sounded nuts to me too. I wasn’t interested in that. I was just interested in learning about them. And as I went further along, I realized, it’s totally possible. Which means it’s a choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And if it’s a choice, he figures, we should make it an informed one by learning more about grizzlies. And not, this time, from what people have said about them, but by studying the animals themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They do a lot of amazing things. They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He says the biggest benefits that grizzlies might bring back to California, though, are not really about the ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re more about. Imagination. They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. Yes, there is a possibility for things that seem impossible. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Maybe Monarch’s story is a kind of allegory for our present moment. On one hand, we live in a time of severe environmental loss, and many of us, to some extent, feel it and can relate to the depressed, overweight captive bear. On the other hand, this is a time of incredible possibility. When enough of our natural world still lives that it may be able to make a comeback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who knows if we’ll ever find grizzlies in California again? But for now, we have our flag — adorned with an image of the fierce, proud, mostly vegetarian bear — named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are in the middle of our experiment of dropping two episodes a week, and we want to know what you think! Share your feedback with us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This question came from listener Mark Karn, and hey, who knows, a future episode could come from YOUR question. Our show is only possible because you keep asking them. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and submit a question right at the top of the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Gabriella Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "A famous San Francisco bear named Monarch has long been rumored to be the model for California’s state flag — but the truth points elsewhere.",
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"title": "Who Is the Bear on the California Flag? A Story Bigger Than One Legend | KQED",
"description": "A famous San Francisco bear named Monarch has long been rumored to be the model for California’s state flag — but the truth points elsewhere.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View\u003c/a>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\"> the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many state flags stick to geometric designs. Wyoming has a buffalo, Louisiana has a pelican. But the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/california\">California\u003c/a> flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day when he found an unexpected story behind it, one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on California’s flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But as he looked into the history further, Karn started to have doubts. He noticed some inconsistencies in the story that made him question whether Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>California used to have thousands of grizzlies\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Before the Gold Rush, historians estimate there were \u003ca href=\"https://nhmlac.org/california-grizzly-bear#:~:text=Some%20have%20estimated%20that%20California,skins%20and%20skeletons%20in%20existence.\">10,000 grizzly bears\u003c/a> in California, living alongside hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Spanish ranchers and then gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s portrayed the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers, even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076801\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076801\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1339\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-04-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">It is often said that the bear on the modern California state flag is based on “Monarch,” one of the last grizzly bears to live in the state. But researchers now believe it was based on the drawing of another bear, Samson. \u003ccite>(Joseph Sohm/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You see the bear being really cast as this obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people,” said Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance. “As something that has to be done away with.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bounties on grizzlies became common. Ranchers often put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Monarch the bear’s infamous life\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, William Randolph Hearst landed back in his hometown of San Francisco, where his father gave him a small newspaper called the \u003cem>San Francisco Examiner\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He was in his 20s and thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture one of the last California grizzly bears and bring it back to San Francisco alive. So, he tasked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, with the assignment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. But he strapped on a bandolier of ammunition and struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076803\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076803\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1600\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-160x128.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-06-KQED-1536x1229.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The taxidermied form of Monarch the bear is part of an exhibit called California: State of Nature on display at the California Academy of Sciences. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With help from local hunters, Kelly spent months hiking around the mountains looking for bears with no luck. But eventually, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp and walked into one of the traps he had set.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At least, that’s how \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/460837694/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">Kelly reported\u003c/a> it in the \u003cem>Examiner \u003c/em>at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Gandy thinks there was no trap. “[Monarch] was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sure enough, Kelly later \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076813\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076813\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"480\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-08-KQED-160x96.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An 1875 image of Woodward’s Gardens, an attraction that was open in the Mission District from 1866 to 189. It featured a museum, art gallery, zoo, rides and more. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Kelly called the bear “Monarch,” as an advertisement for the \u003cem>Examiner\u003c/em>, which had the slogan: “The Monarch of the Dailies.” He brought Monarch, via sled, wagon and train, to a place called Woodward’s Garden in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800’s, \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/Woodward%27s_Gardens,_c._1860s\">Woodward’s Garden \u003c/a>was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides and an 8-foot-3-inch-tall man who was billed as a giant. It was kind of a carnival, and a sign of its times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch stayed there for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it. Then he was moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The fair, called the \u003ca href=\"https://www.foundsf.org/California_Midwinter_Fair_of_1894:_An_Orientalist_Exposition\">California Midwinter International Exposition of 1894\u003c/a>, took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display — real people — in a village of papier-mache igloos. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/sfhistory/article/the-racist-fair-that-almost-ruined-golden-gate-16770528.php\">There was a Japanese village\u003c/a>, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear — Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie — where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now. The menagerie had bison, kangaroos, elk, an aviary and now a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could walk up to the enclosure [and] stick your arm in if you wanted to,” said Rebekah Kim, head librarian at the California Academy of Sciences. “You could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076816\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076816\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-09-KQED-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A young guest inspects Monarch the bear, on view for the first time since 2012 at Cal Academy’s “California: State of Nature” exhibition. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars,” said Kim, referencing a historic photograph of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, at nothing. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At that point, he was very overweight; he was paralyzed,” said Kim, “Their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies, and for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, scientists believed them to be extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How California ended up with a bear on its flag\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about 30 American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation: “the California Republic.” They said the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076800\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1474px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076800\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1474\" height=\"848\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED.jpg 1474w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-03-KQED-160x92.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1474px) 100vw, 1474px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">This 1855 illustration of the grizzly bear, Samson, was made by artist Charles Nahl. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The bear on that flag bore little resemblance to our current flag’s bear. “[It looks like] maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell,” Kim said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The independent republic didn’t last; California soon became part of the United States. The bear flag stuck around, but everybody was drawing it in a different way. Some versions had the bear standing up, on others it was perched up at the top of the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1911, California adopted the bear flag as its state flag, and the legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and dark brown. In 1953, the state decided to standardize the flag further and try to make the bear look more like a bear, rather than a wolf or a pig. A zoologist was brought in to advise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076799\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 1099px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12076799 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1099\" height=\"621\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED.jpg 1099w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-02-KQED-160x90.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1099px) 100vw, 1099px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Photograph of an illustration showing the raising of the Bear Flag over Sonoma, June 14, 1846. The California Republic flag, complete with grizzly bear, star and stripe, is being raised on the pole. In the background is the home of General Vallejo, an army barracks and a church. \u003ccite>(Public Domain)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Here’s where the urban legend begins. Many sources report that since all the California grizzlies were dead by then, the flag’s artist used the taxidermied form of Monarch, which was even then on display at the California Academy of Sciences, as a reference.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Kim doesn’t buy it. She studied the relevant historical documents, especially the correspondence between the zoologist and the flag’s artist. \u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/flag-correspondence.pdf\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">According to the letters\u003c/a>, the men used as their main reference a different grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. It had several live grizzlies chained to the floor, as well as elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was a massive grizzly named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A painter called Charles Nahl made illustrations for \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/adventuresofjame00hittrich/page/n9/mode/2up\">a book\u003c/a> about Adams, and one of his paintings was of \u003ca href=\"https://bancroftlibrarycara.wordpress.com/nahl_grizzly_monterey_image_cropped/\">Samson\u003c/a>. It’s \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting, of Samson, that was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The California grizzly’s undeserved reputation\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Not only did Monarch’s story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable and the recovery of them is impossible,” said Peter Alagona, a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together with a team of researchers, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. He found startling results.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12076817\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12076817\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260317-MONARCH-THE-BEAR-10-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fran Ritchie of the California Academy of Sciences works to restore Monarch’s fur. \u003ccite>(Gayle Laird/California Academy of Sciences)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It turns out, California grizzlies were mostly vegetarian and averaged around 500 pounds, much smaller than the monstrous sizes attributed to them. Perhaps most surprisingly, they are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct,” said Alagona. “They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>He’s aware that to many people this sounds like a very bad idea. But the concept is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They do a lot of amazing things,” he said. “They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Alagona’s research suggests that with sufficient numbers and time, grizzlies could even change the state’s vegetation and create firebreaks. But to him, the most important benefit is less tangible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re more about imagination,” Alagona said. “They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out of the 50 states that make up the union, California is considered pretty cool. We’ve got the good weather, the stunning coastline, those laid-back vibes. And we’ve definitely got a cool state flag. If you’ve looked at other flags, many stick to geometric designs. Wyoming does have a buffalo. Louisiana’s got a pelican. But California? Our flag has a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> listener Mark Karn was researching the flag one day,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I like to read a lot, and whenever I read, I like to, um, go off on tangents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He found an unexpected story behind it — one that has been repeated for many years in newspapers, videos, and websites. He read that the bear on our flag was modeled after a famous bear named Monarch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Monarch was one of California’s last grizzlies, captured in the mountains and then put on display in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of deep dived into Monarch the bear. I was fascinated by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Mark has always had a passion for wild animals.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I was born in Nigeria and grew up in South Africa. I love looking at nature in its wild state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a teenager, he would take a book out to a remote watering hole where he’d read and wait for animals to come and drink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>And I used to see a little, uh, a duiker. A duiker is a very small antelope. I used to watch the duiker come and, and drink water at the water hole. Definitely one of my most memorable moments, and you know, my happy memories. \u003cem>(Laughs.)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, Mark was dismayed to learn that Monarch, this big, powerful grizzly, was kept behind bars for most of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>I kind of cringe at animals in zoos. You know, they supposedly live longer, but to me there’s a, a beauty that they lack when they’re in a cage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And while he was doing his own research, he noticed some inconsistencies in Monarch’s story that made him question if Monarch was indeed the bear on our flag. So he reached out to \u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Karn: \u003c/strong>The bear on the California flag, is it the actual Monarch the Bear that they claim it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To find out if it really was, and to sort through some of the other legends around the bear, reporter Katherine Monahan went to meet Monarch. Or rather, his taxidermied form, more than a century old, on display at the California Academy of Sciences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of chatter and kids in an echoey space\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a weekday afternoon, and the academy is packed with kids and families, mostly checking out the aquarium or the T-rex. They don’t all head for this dimly lit corner of the California exhibit. But those who do\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>Wow. That is crazy. Man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Get to see a California grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>Did you know we had grizzly bears?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 3: \u003c/strong>We don’t have ’em anymore, do we?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is powerful-looking, with a muscular hump above his shoulders. He’s dark and shaggy and bigger than a black bear for sure, but not nearly as big as, say, a two-ton polar bear. His claws, though\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 2: \u003c/strong>They look lethal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They’re easily as long as my fingers. There’s a cast paw print where people can put their own hand in to compare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 4: \u003c/strong>Go put your hand in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 5: \u003c/strong>Oh my goodness. That’s just the palm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch is standing flat on all fours with kind of a Mona Lisa smile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Museum visitor 6: \u003c/strong>Was he old?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He looks peaceful. But then, he is taxidermied, quite literally a puppet. And we could have made him look however we wanted. Which, in many ways, is what we did.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> So much of what we know about grizzlies is a myth. It’s fictitious, it’s fear-based.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s Devlin Gandy, tribal liaison for the California Grizzly Alliance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says it’s estimated there were ten thousand grizzly bears in the state before the California Gold Rush. And, hundreds of thousands of Native Americans.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s very abundantly clear that they not only existed alongside grizzlies, but they thrived with grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But the Spanish ranchers and then the gold miners who flooded into California in the 1800s saw the bears differently. They told sensational stories that featured the animals as brutal, bloodthirsty killers — even though grizzlies mostly minded their own business unless provoked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>You see the bear being really cast as this, um, obstacle to progress, much like the wolves and much like native people, and as something that, you know, has to be done away with.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bounties on grizzlies became common. Mostly, they were killed with poison. Ranchers put strychnine onto the carcasses of dead cows. By the late 1800s, very few grizzlies were left in the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It’s a time of extreme ecological degradation, and you start to get this romanticism for the West, this romantic notion of Native Americans and wildlife. And Monarch falls right into that narrative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Enter William Randolph Hearst. In 1887, after getting kicked out of Harvard for bad behavior, he landed back in his hometown of San Francisco. Where his father gave him a small newspaper called the San Francisco Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Hearst is leading this new wave of journalism that has a lot of sensationalism tied to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He was about 25 years old. And he thought it would be great publicity if someone from the Examiner could capture a live grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So he asked one of his reporters, Allen Kelly, to do it. Kelly clearly got right into character, as you can see in his portrait from the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He has these bandoliers of ammunition on both sides of his chest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it’s just like he’s trying to be Rambo. You’re like, what are you doing, dude?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kelly had never actually hunted a bear before. So when he struck out for the mountains of Southern California, where it was rumored there were still a few grizzlies left, he hired local helpers. They were happy to oblige.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>A man coming from San Francisco with a blank check from one of the richest men in California to go on a bear hunt? That sounds absolutely great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> They led this city-slicker journalist around in circles, all the while camping and eating well and seeing plenty of bear sign, but not trapping any bears. Kelly eventually caught on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He starts to realize that all these grizzly bear tracks that he’s seeing are actually probably not being made by a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So he fired his crew. But by then he’d been gone for five months, and he was getting desperate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>Like, I need a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Just then, a monstrous grizzly came to his camp, conquered a cinnamon bear called Six-Toed Pete in an epic moonlit battle, and walked into his trap. At least, that’s how Kelly reported it in the Examiner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>A great ripping and tearing was heard going on inside. The Monarch was caught at last. Upon the approach of men, the grizzly became furious and made the heavy logs tremble and shake in his efforts to get out and resent the indignity that had been put upon him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But Gandy thinks there was no trap.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He was actually probably captured by some of the vaqueros using lassos. And when they’re able to use four different horses to pull the bear’s arms and legs in four different directions, you have a bear that basically is stuck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> About fifteen years later, Kelly \u003ca href=\"https://www.gutenberg.org/files/15276/15276-h/15276-h.htm#chap02\">retold his story\u003c/a> in a book, this time saying that some Mexicans caught the bear, and he heard about it and went and bought it from them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regardless, he still had to transport it to San Francisco. Which he reports in swashbuckling, self-aggrandizing detail.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>The Monarch was now bound, gagged, and utterly helpless, but he never ceased roaring with rage at his captors and struggling to get just one swipe at them with his paw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Naming the bear “Monarch” was kind of an advertisement for the Examiner, which had the slogan “The Monarch of the Dailies.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly describes how the grizzly broke his teeth trying to gnaw through his chains. How he tied Monarch to a kind of sled and hauled him down the mountain, and then built a cage and mounted it on a wagon and then a train for San Francisco … to a place called Woodward’s Garden.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800’s, Woodward’s Garden was an amusement park in the Mission, near where the Armory is now. It had an aquatic carousel, balloon rides, camel rides, an eight foot three inch tall man who was billed as a giant . . . It was kind of a carnival. And a sign of its time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They had, like, live bears jumping from like a diving board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Whoa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim:\u003c/strong> Oh, and then bears in captivity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Examiner covered Monarch’s arrival at the garden with great drama: how one of the black bears died of fright when he arrived. How he tore through his cage into the hyena enclosure and rolled up sheets of iron like they were paper. How he was the only grizzly bear in captivity (which is not true. There was another one at the Oregon Zoo). How he weighed a thousand pounds (also not true).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambi of chatter at the Academy of Sciences\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Back at Monarch’s taxidermy display, we talk about how the fabled massiveness of grizzly bears was yet another tall tale\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> I have never seen a grizzly, and I thought they’d be a lot bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No, actually, technically. Monarch is a little overweight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim explains that despite grizzlies’ reputation for being huge and vicious\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>They were mostly vegan. And they probably weighed close to like 500 ish pounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Why would you bother being vegan with a body like that? Look at those claws.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>I don’t know. I mean, and that’s the thing, it’s like a dispelling a myth. I think California grizzlies were hunted down because they were thought to be, um, apex predators and a threat to livestock and people, but they really weren’t going after those things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It turns out the claws, along with the muscular hump on the shoulders, are really for digging. Grizzlies are omnivores, and eat mostly vegetarian. In captivity, however,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Monarch’s diet consisted of biscuits, sugar, peanuts, not his natural diet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> No wonder he is portly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>He is. He was like, um, I don’t know exactly, around 900 pounds. So double the normal size of a grizzly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch stayed in Woodward’s Garden for five years, in a cage so small he could barely turn around in it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And then he moved to the World’s Fair in Golden Gate Park as part of like the 49 ERs camp.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Wait a second. \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/457584756/?match=1&terms=monarch%20the%20bear\">As a live bear. He was in the World Fair?\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>Yeah, he was. There’s, oh, I have a picture somewhere. He’s like in a pit. It’s actually really sad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The 1894 World’s Fair took up 200 acres in Golden Gate Park. It was built like an amusement park, with large outdoor attractions. There were Inuit people on display, real people, in a village of papier-mache igloos. There was a Japanese village, which is now the Japanese Tea Garden. And a \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/378308351/?match=1&terms=%2749%20mining%20camp\">pretend mining camp\u003c/a>, where you could go to a saloon and see a grizzly bear. Here’s, once again, the San Francisco Examiner:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping: \u003c/strong>Monarch, the Examiner bear, is a wild and untamed beast, and has not yet been told that one of the lion tribe is likely to invade his home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Fairgoers were clamouring for a lion to be dropped into Monarch’s concrete pit so they’d fight. But the fair managers, in a rare moment of good taste, refused.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the World’s Fair, Monarch was moved to his final home — a cage in Golden Gate Park’s menagerie, where the AIDS Memorial Grove is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could see a bunch of different animals. It was free.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> This was the late 1800s, well before the San Francisco Zoo, and really before any real understanding of how to run a zoo. The park had bison, as it still does, but also kangaroos and elk and an aviary. And a grizzly bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>You could walk up to the enclosure, stick your arm in if you wanted to. Um, and you could throw peanuts or whatever snacks you wanted to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And Monarch lived there for the rest of his life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of historic photos. You can see many times he looks pretty sad behind bars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> She shows me one of Monarch resting his head against the side of his cage, staring, it seems, into nothing. After the first decade, his keepers became concerned by his apparent depression and brought a female grizzly called Montana Babe. Over time, they had several cubs. Some of them died. And in 1911, after over two decades in captivity, Monarch died too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>At that point. He was very overweight, he was like paralyzed and not moving, and so the, I think their way of euthanasia was like a policeman coming and shooting him in the head.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Monarch was one of the last of his kind. California grizzlies were classified as a distinct subspecies. And for over half a century, they had been relentlessly, systematically poisoned, hunted and trapped. By the 1920s, they were extinct … or so we believed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we come back, we turn to Mark’s question. \u003cem>Is Monarch\u003c/em> the bear on the California flag? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Now we come to the question of our state flag, featuring a strong and proud-looking grizzly bear. Our question asker, Mark Karn, wanted to know if, as the legend goes, \u003cem>Monarch\u003c/em> is the bear on the flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Katherine Monahan again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The history of the bear flag goes way back – to before California was even a state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1846, grizzly bears were all over California, which was still part of Mexico. That year, a group of about thirty American settlers rebelled against the Mexican government and took over the town of Sonoma.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They painted a bear and a star on a sheet, raised it above town, and proclaimed themselves an independent nation. The California Republic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academy of Sciences head librarian Rebekah Kim shows me a picture of their flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>The first one is just like a silhouette of a. You think maybe a bear or a pig or a dog, right? It’s so hard to tell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To the rebels, the grizzly \u003ca href=\"https://bearflagmuseum.blogspot.com/2009/08/william-b-ide-on-creation-of-bear-flag.html\">symbolized\u003c/a> “strength and unyielding resistance.” Their new republic didn’t last – California soon became part of the United States. But the bear flag stuck around. Only everybody was drawing it in a different way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>There’s another variation where the bear is up on its hind legs and kind of standing up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1911, California decided to make it the state flag. And the state legislature set guidelines, saying the bear must be in the middle, walking toward the left, and it must be dark brown\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>But there are no specific specifications about what it’s supposed to look like, so then, depending on the printer, you can get a different version.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So, in 1953, the legislature decided we needed to standardize the flag and try to make the bear look more reliably like a bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>And so there is a zoologist who is an expert on California grizzlies, who’s sort of informing the designer about how to change the image to make it less like either a wolf or like a pig.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The problem was, all the California grizzlies were dead by then. So what could the artist look at for a reference? The taxidermied form of Monarch could have been helpful, and there is a 1953 article in the San Francisco Chronicle that suggests it was part of the process. But Kim doesn’t buy it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>No. Looking at the historical documents of the illustrator. All the back and forth is not about Monarch. The references he uses is a different illustration and some, um, images of other grizzlies in other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> So it’s. Kind of an urban legend.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong>It is, and it is perpetuated by lots of sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Kim herself was one of them, until she did this research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rebekah Kim: \u003c/strong> I was like, oh no, I’ve told people, like I’ve told the wrong thing to people. Cause that has been the narrative that we’ve been fed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The real model for the California state flag, as it turns out, was Samson, another famous grizzly that spent time in San Francisco long before Monarch showed up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back in the 1850s, a man named James Capen Adams, better known as Grizzly Adams, opened the Mountaineer Museum in San Francisco. It was on Clay Street, just a few blocks from where the Ferry Building is today. A newspaper reporter described a dingy basement with several live grizzlies chained to the floor. There were also elk, mountain lions, and a few eagles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over reads newspaper clipping:\u003c/strong> At the rear, in a very large iron cage, was the monster grizzly Samson. He was an immense creature weighing some three-quarters of a ton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> A painter called Charles Nahl made a detailed portrait of Samson. And \u003cem>that\u003c/em> painting of \u003cem>that\u003c/em> bear was consistently used as a reference for the California state flag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>The entire story was, was wrong in a lot of ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Pete Alagona is a professor in the environmental studies program at UC Santa Barbara. He says not only did \u003cem>Monarch’s \u003c/em>story get distorted and manipulated, but so did the story of all the California grizzlies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>And the most wrong part of it was the idea that the extinction of grizzly bears in California was inevitable, and the recovery of them is impossible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> To get closer to the truth, Alagona analyzed Monarch’s bones and fur, along with those of other grizzlies. His team found startling results. It turns out California grizzlies are genetically indistinguishable from modern-day grizzlies in Yellowstone and Montana.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re gone from California, but they’re not really extinct. They just kind of live in Montana right now. It’s the same bear. It’s just not here at the moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Now, Alagona is working with the California Grizzly Alliance, which proposes \u003ca href=\"https://www.calgrizzly.org/\">bringing grizzlies back\u003c/a> to the state. The idea is to start with just a couple of animals, very closely monitored, in a very remote area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> You are aware that to a lot of people, the idea of reintroducing grizzlies sounds pretty nuts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>Um, yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> What’s, what’s your response to that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>So, you know, when I started this project, it sounded nuts to me too. I wasn’t interested in that. I was just interested in learning about them. And as I went further along, I realized, it’s totally possible. Which means it’s a choice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And if it’s a choice, he figures, we should make it an informed one by learning more about grizzlies. And not, this time, from what people have said about them, but by studying the animals themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They do a lot of amazing things. They turn over soil and enrich the soil. They are by far the biggest seed dispersers of any animal out there in the world on a per capita basis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> He says the biggest benefits that grizzlies might bring back to California, though, are not really about the ecosystem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Alagona: \u003c/strong>They’re more about. Imagination. They’re more about this idea that yes, we can restore things that seem unrestorable. Yes, there is a possibility for things that seem impossible. To me, that’s what the bear does for us is it enables you to see a different kind of future by showing you a little bit more about yourself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Maybe Monarch’s story is a kind of allegory for our present moment. On one hand, we live in a time of severe environmental loss, and many of us, to some extent, feel it and can relate to the depressed, overweight captive bear. On the other hand, this is a time of incredible possibility. When enough of our natural world still lives that it may be able to make a comeback.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Who knows if we’ll ever find grizzlies in California again? But for now, we have our flag — adorned with an image of the fierce, proud, mostly vegetarian bear — named Samson.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We are in the middle of our experiment of dropping two episodes a week, and we want to know what you think! Share your feedback with us by emailing \u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This question came from listener Mark Karn, and hey, who knows, a future episode could come from YOUR question. Our show is only possible because you keep asking them. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and submit a question right at the top of the page.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bay Curious\u003c/em> is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Gabriella Glueck, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I moved to San Francisco in the summer of 2013 with a giant patch the size of a maxi pad covering my left eye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just a week before my move, I had eye surgery to repair a partially detached retina, a condition that could have left me blind. The first month or so after surgery was tough. Anytime my pulse got a little elevated, I would feel it pounding in my eye. And so my first month in San Francisco was profoundly dark and lonely. I spent most of it lying in bed, listening to audiobooks in a darkened room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As healing progressed, though, I started to venture outside. First on short walks to the coffee shop, but soon on little runs through Golden Gate Park. I started off on the main thoroughfares. I’d pass by the Conservatory of Flowers, loop around Blue Heron Lake, stop to admire the bison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As my body recovered, my runs grew longer. And it was the sense of discovery in the park that propelled me to add a mile or two here or there on my run each day. Follow an uncertain path into the woods only to find a new garden I’d never seen. My run stretched out first to six miles, then eight miles, 10 miles, and finally 13.1 miles when I kicked my way across the finish line of my very first half marathon which, fittingly, finished in Golden Gate Park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park revived me, gave me a space to rebuild myself after feeling pretty broken. And that’s why I’m excited to share today’s episode where we dig in on how it was created more than 150 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But first, let me introduce our special guest. Marta Lindsay has combed over every dell, every stone, every pathway to write a new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, a Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. And she’s here to share some hot tips about the park today. Welcome, Marta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so much for having me. This is a delight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m so glad you could join us. What is it that captured your imagination about Golden Gate Park enough to spend all the time that I know it takes to write a book about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, end of the day, I just really love Golden Gate Park, but I got into it in part because of having a fussy baby. If she was having one of those days where she’s super fussy, like you just have to get outside, right? And for us outside basically was Golden Gate park in the inner sunset area. And I think as I started to spend so much more time in the park, I just saw there was so much more to it than first meets the eye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1625030704&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your book has so much information about the different spaces within the park, but today you’ve brought a few things to talk about that even the most devout park lovers might not know. Let’s start with some of those unique stones found in the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery stones. Yes. Once you know about these, then you’re always looking for them and it’s really fun because they are scattered all around the park. Go back in medieval times everyone, and we’re in Spain…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Around the year 1,200 at a monastery overlooking the Tagus River.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there is this incredibly beautiful series of buildings, kind of castle-like. And they were all made by hand by these monks who hand-carved all these limestones, thousands and thousands of stones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery built of these beautiful stones flourished for hundreds of years until the 1830s, but was shut down by royal decree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And over the years, it was not used, and it was kind of falling apart. And enter William Randolph Hearst. He was, like, kind of the ultimate rich guy of the era. He owned the San Francisco Examiner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, of course, Hearst Castle, the sprawling estate down in San Simeon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He had someone who had scoped out this old monastery in Spain and was like, I think we should take the whole thing apart! Ship it to America and build another amazing castle, but in Northern California this time. 11 ships had to transport the stones of these multiple ancient buildings all the way to San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Depression takes enough wind out of the sails of Hearst’s fortune that this is an impossible thing. And so he ends up selling the stones to the city of San Francisco in 1941. So these stones are just sitting in this warehouse in San Francisco and they’re all marked by the way, when they took them apart, it was like, we got to be able to reassemble them. So they were marked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">essentially packed in wooden crates with instructions on the outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then there’s this idea to build a medieval art museum in Golden Gate Park using the stones. The stones are moved to Golden Gate Park, and then right away there’s a fire. And then there’s some more fires, which burned the markings off. This made it, at the time, impossible to reassemble. Then you’ve just got all these monastery stones sitting in Golden Gate park and what’s gonna happen to them. And eventually they just start using them for gardening. There’s a ton of them in the botanical gardens used in a variety of ways. And then also sometimes you’ll just find one here or there along a path. Some of them are really ornately carved and have like. You know, rounded edges and lots of, like, designs in them. If you go right into the main gate at the botanical garden, immediately to your left, they’ve built this whole wall and structure using them, and so you get to see kind of a variety of the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11915008 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Conservatory-of-flowers.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And also how neat to be able to touch these stones and think about the journey they took to get there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Them every day and have no idea that they’re walking by this medieval treasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of folks are probably familiar with the Beach Chalet, the restaurant at the very end of the park that borders on Ocean Beach. They have a lovely view of the Pacific, if you can get a spot in the dining room, which is tricky on the weekends, some solid food, but it can also get pretty crowded on a sunny day. I have heard that you have a tip about somewhere else to try just a short walk away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the golf clubhouse. I do not golf, but when I went there for researching the book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is a little hidden secret. They redid it a couple years ago and the patio is beautiful. And because of the way they redid the golf course, you can now see through the trees to the ocean, which I think is one of the very few places in the park that you’re actually like having ocean-ness in the background. And they have got this little clubhouse and they’re like serving up. Bill’s burger dog, trademark, which is one of three places you can get a Bill’s Burger Dog, which is basically a hamburger shaped like the size, like a hot dog bun size, but even better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Did they put it in a hot dog bun?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s on a hot dog bun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Then i\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s a burger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t is a burger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you put burger toppings on it or hot dog toppings on?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I think you could go either way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the height of the COVID-19 shutdowns, the park really became, I think, a sanctuary for a lot of people, maybe including yourself. It was a way to get out of your house. It was way to interact with other people in a way that was, you know, a bit safer. Do something with your body. In this book, you mentioned that some people really started to make the park their own during that time. Can you tell us about some of those folks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would say quietly during the pandemic, some parts of the park really were transformed in these really magical ways and a lot of people don’t know about them. One of them is if you’re walking along JFK Promenade and you get almost to the whale sculpture that’s in the middle of JFK promenade, on your right side would be 14th Avenue Meadow, which is where they have the beer garden in the summer with the free live music. And then right past that is, you’ll see like a lot of succulents and stuff. And this woman, Marta, happens to share my name.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the pandemic. She’s like, ‘I was, you know, it was two weeks in, I was depressed, I had a house cleaning business and I couldn’t do that anymore.’ And she’s like I just started going to the park and then there was a rec and park gardener and I told them I was a hard worker and I needed something to do. And so she started tending that area and it’s totally transformed it. And again, like. You’ve got to get off the main path and then you’ll be on these little magical trails and it’s so pretty back there. And she has said, if you see her there, and she’s always wearing this large brimmed hat, like she has extra gloves, and you can go help her anytime.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The little paths that she’s created are especially cool because it looks like there’s just bushes lining the sidewalk there, but if you follow the woodchip paths that she has created back sort of beyond the bushes, there’s a whole little world back there that you can’t see from the main road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_11915065 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/GettyImages-1322040719-scaled-e1653522839658.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One name that people have probably heard a lot related to Golden Gate Park is John McLaren. He was an early park superintendent who served for more than 50 years, and he did a lot to make the park the special place it is today. His fingerprints are really all over it. He comes up a lot in your book. Can you tell us what it is about him that captured your imagination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So John McLaren oversaw the park starting in 1890. And William Hammond Hall created the canvas, but then John McLaren was the artist and he really ran with it. And at that time he took over half of the park still had nothing had happened to it yet. Half of the Park, the dunes had been reclaimed and things were starting to be planted, but that was still a whole half of park to deal with, and John McLaren oversaw it all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His vision for the park was just right on, with wanting it to really feel like an escape into nature. And he had to fight a lot of fights during those years to try to hold to that. But he also was this master gardener with this just eye for design that was. Really special for the time too because the parks that existed at that time were mostly European parks but nature doesn’t run in a straight line was one of his quotes. His favorite thing was the dells. He loved to have flowers growing within a grove of trees somewhere so it’s like you stumble on to this little magical scene right and because he was on the job for so long he was really able to realize that. I just think of how much of what we think of as the look and feel of the park it’s John McLaren.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can find much more about John McLaren in Marta’s book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, A Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Find it wherever books are sold. Marta Lindsay, thank you so much for talking with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we return, The Making of Golden Gate park. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Next up, producer Katrina Schwartz and I are exploring the early history of how Golden Gate Park was built.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are a lot of stories about how this park came to be. One tale goes that only a magical combination of horse manure and spit was enough to tame the sandy soil and make it rich enough for plants to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I’m no gardener, but even to me, that sounds a little far-fetched. To find some definitive answers, we headed over to the northeast corner of the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So this little path says Oak Woodland Path. should we go up there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, let’s check it out. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trees we walked through were here before anything else in the park. It’s one of the few areas that remains relatively unchanged.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an old-growth forest. These would be descendants of the trees that were cut down for firewood during the gold rush. It predated the park, it predated European colonization here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re here with Nicole Meldahl, the executive director of the Western Neighborhoods Project, a community history nonprofit focused on the west side of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s just behind the conservatory flowers, kind of hidden.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We decided to start here because it was this corner of the park where trees grew naturally that gave park creators the confidence they could make the rest of the Park green.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As beautiful as the Oak Grove is, we are still surrounded by the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trucks that back up are the worst. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We kept going deeper and deeper into the park, hoping to find a quiet spot for our interview.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sorry, we’re off-roading a little. I thought it was a path, but then it became not a path.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nicole says what we now know as Golden Gate Park, a lush place with winding pathways, protected dells and lots of recreation, wasn’t even part of the city at first.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What did this place look like at the beginning of the gold rush?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An 1853 map of this area, called it the Great Sand Bank. So yeah, it was very empty, isolated. There were a few scattered beach cottages for some adventurous folks. There were homesteaders out here.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s population skyrocketed during the years after the gold rush, and city leaders had big ambitions. But first, they needed more space. In the Outside Lands Act of 1866, the western half of the city became part of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has always thought of itself as like a great, amazing city, right? And it is, we definitely know it is. But really it was the new kid in town. So at some point they decided they needed a park that was befitting of the amazing city that they hoped to build this into.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As luck would have it, the landscape architect Frederick Law Olmsted, famous for designing Central Park in New York, was traveling in California. City leaders asked for his opinion about building the new park in the newly acquired Outside Lands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And he was like, oh no, no, you can never build a park here. Trees won’t grow in these sand dunes, so I recommend the other side of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">City leaders did not like that recommendation, so instead of following Olmsted’s advice, they found someone else who promised he could transform the dunes into forest. A young surveyor from Stockton named William Hammond Hall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So how did Hammond Hall turn the Great Sandy Bank into this park that we know and love?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, there’s a legend about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some with less veritable facts…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Legend goes Hammond Hall is out with his team surveying the land after the city designated it for the park in 1870.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’ve got their horses with them\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and one of the horse’s feed buckets that hangs around their nose drops, and the barley that’s in their feed spills out into the sand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then, of course, you need a little fertilizer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, manure from the same horse that the barley fell out of the feed bag from landed directly on top of this little patch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Hammond hog comes back through that area in a week or so, the quick growing barley from the horse’s bucket has already taken root and is growing. And William Hammond Hall goes…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is going to be the secret recipe for how we tame these dunes, because if you combine the quick growing barley with native lupine here, that will sort of stabilize the dunes long enough to allow for these trees that he wanted to put through the park as wind breaks to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s all a little convenient, isn’t it? Nicole thinks elements of this story are true, but the mythical telling leaves out some context. First, historians have recently discovered that there was a farm on the eastern edge of the park that grew barley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, Hammond Hall probably already knew barley could grow here. And second, the process of reclaiming sand by starting with small, quick-growing grasses to build up topsoil before planting trees on top of them was already a well-established practice in Europe. As for the horse manure part of the legend, that is where we get to street sweepers. And no, I’m not talking about the kind that get you a parking ticket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was common practice for the city to use horse manure they collected in the streets because this is still an era where people used horses on a daily basis so it was a sort of thrifty way to fertilize city parks and areas around town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that’s how acres and acres of sand dunes were transformed into forest. No spit, but there was definitely manure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were just about to ask Nicole about the park’s many hills and dells, when who should come strolling by but the guy who literally wrote a book on Golden Gate Park’s history? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chris Pollock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my god! Hi! We’re from Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park’s historian in the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi! Lovely to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What a coincidence!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a happy meeting because in addition to the land reclamation technique Nicole has been describing, Hammond Hall did something else pretty ingenious when he was superintendent of the park. Chris Pollack calls it respecting the genius of the place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what the genius of the place means is utilizing what you’ve got to work with to the best ability you can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Basically respect that the landscape looks the way it does for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What that meant was a very efficient way of using the sand dunes as the existing topography, for the most part, to create this undulating, kind of interesting landscape, because to have it just flat would have been rather boring and counterintuitive to the idea of sustainable environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They knew that the wind coming off the ocean was their worst enemy. If they leveled the park, the wind would continue to push sand eastward and kill new plantings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the area behind the sand dune, it wouldn’t be so windy there, and it might be more hospitable to plant something there as opposed to on the windy side of the sand dunes. So there was a lot of selection being done.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hidden dells, small hills, and winding paths in the park are the result of using the genius of the place in the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Hammond Hall started greening the eastern end of the park, slowly moving westward. But he simultaneously took on the far west end near the beach. Stopping the sand dunes from encroaching was critical to the success of the project. Here’s Nicole again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like okay we’re gonna build a fence and we’re going to put the planks really close together and the dunes will come up and it will hit against that fence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As the sand piled up it made a windbreak \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And on the other side of the fence you know where the dunes aren’t we’re start planning all these things and it’ll start growing up and the Dunes will up to the top of the fence and then we’ll build the fence higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today, at the far western end of the park, you can still see Hammond Hall’s idea at work. Large trees and bushes protect the intersections of the Park from the sand that comes whipping across the Great Highway, and little sand dunes sometimes pile up at the park’s edges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Within five years, San Franciscans were delighted by their new park. An 1875 article in the San Francisco Examiner said,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Calling to mind the inhospitable desolate aspect of the region a few years since, we cannot but regard with favor the result.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hammond Hall had the sand mostly under control, but something else had become unruly. The politics of the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In general, there was a lot of graft in the city at the time, and William Hammond Hall didn’t like it. So he tried to control what he could with his powers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Superintendent of the park. He fired a blacksmith for padding his contract. A blacksmith who, unfortunately for Hammond Hall, ended up becoming a state legislator. He sought his revenge by blocking funding for the park and accused Hammond hall of misusing park resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The allegations were completely false. However, William Hammond Hall had enough. In 1876, he resigns and the entire Park Commission resigns because they’re so disgusted by what they’re seeing as politics getting in the way of a beautiful city park that the city wanted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The years that followed were bad ones for Golden Gate Park. Hammond Hall’s plans were neglected.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this sort of falls to the wayside because there’s no money and more people who come to power on the Commission aren’t there for the right reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many men with railroad interests were appointed to the Park Commission and lo and behold a railroad gets built to the park — and is barely taxed. And more buildings are popping up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All these things start to materialize that aren’t the wilderness that was initially envisioned here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Though some of the park’s most beloved attractions did come from this time period.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You have the Conservatory of Flowers, which was a bunch of very wealthy men who purchased it from another wealthy man, James Lick, who had passed away and gifted it to the city that put it here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Without a fierce defender of the initial vision for the park, tensions arose over what the park should be. A wild green space where people could connect with nature, or a cultural center to showcase the growing wealth and power of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1890, the Park Commission promoted a man named John McLaren from assistant superintendent up to superintendent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">John McLaren, I think he’s one of the most universally beloved city employees of all time. They built him a giant house. McLaren Lodge was built in 1896 specifically for him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many people think John McLaren was the first superintendent of the park. He wasn’t, but he did continue to build it up in line with the vision Hammond Hall set forward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He just did it without making so many enemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is the most famous story you’re ever gonna hear when it comes to John McLaren, is he hated statues in the park, hated them. So he would let them put it wherever it was. They’ve always made a big deal. And then John McLarin would very quietly plant things around the monuments that would grow up over time and totally obscure them so you couldn’t see them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can still find statues nearly hidden by bushes around the music concourse today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">McLaren worked in the park for more than 50 years, overseeing its transformation into the urban gem it is today. Millions of people visit the park each year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">William Hammond Hall, on the other hand, often gets forgotten. But the two men had a lot in common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They really stuck to their principles. They didn’t like graft. They didn’t like to see people throwing their weight around for other reasons than making this park better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They were truly public servants who loved the park. Hammond Hall once wrote:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With drives and rides for the rich, and pleasant rambles for the poor, quiet retreats for those who would be to themselves, and thronged promenades for the gaily disposed, and open grounds for lovers of boisterous sports, and tracks adapted to the special wants of children. The modern urban park is, indeed, the municipality’s open-air assembly room, acceptable, alike to all, and pleasing to each of her citizens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During our day in the park, it was inspiring to see how vibrant this place is. We saw school kids volunteering, cyclists whizzing by, couples out for a romantic stroll, and folks enjoying a quiet moment on a bench.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">clear the park is a place for everyone, just like Hammond Hall imagined it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Olivia Allen Price: And I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Special thanks to Chris Pollock, whose book, San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, 1,017 Acres of Stories, has all kinds of fun facts about the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Nicole Meldahl, who you can hear on the Outside Lands San Francisco Podcast. They go deep on the history of the city western neighborhoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And thanks to Brendan Willard, Sebastian Mino-Buccelli, Kiana Mogadam, Sarah Rose Leonard, Lance Gardner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Kao, Christopher Beale, Katie Springer, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, and Ethan Tovan Lindsay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have a few Bay Curious events coming up. First up is \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6151\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious Trivia\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> on April 8th here at KQED’s headquarters in the Mission District. If you’ve been following the show for a while, you know to scoop up tickets quickly because they will sell out. Details at kqed.org slash live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other event we have coming up is a brand new one for us, and it’s in Golden Gate Park at the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6232\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conservatory of Flowers on June 20th and 21st\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. We are creating a historically-themed, immersive experience that is going to bring the past of this beautiful building and all its incredible exhibits to life. Join us for an interactive game that will allow you to explore the history of the conservatory and the people who created it. Space is limited. There are timed tours that will be running throughout the evening on both nights. So go ahead and register. That’s also at kqed.org slash live. Hope to see you there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I moved to San Francisco in the summer of 2013 with a giant patch the size of a maxi pad covering my left eye. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Just a week before my move, I had eye surgery to repair a partially detached retina, a condition that could have left me blind. The first month or so after surgery was tough. Anytime my pulse got a little elevated, I would feel it pounding in my eye. And so my first month in San Francisco was profoundly dark and lonely. I spent most of it lying in bed, listening to audiobooks in a darkened room. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As healing progressed, though, I started to venture outside. First on short walks to the coffee shop, but soon on little runs through Golden Gate Park. I started off on the main thoroughfares. I’d pass by the Conservatory of Flowers, loop around Blue Heron Lake, stop to admire the bison. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As my body recovered, my runs grew longer. And it was the sense of discovery in the park that propelled me to add a mile or two here or there on my run each day. Follow an uncertain path into the woods only to find a new garden I’d never seen. My run stretched out first to six miles, then eight miles, 10 miles, and finally 13.1 miles when I kicked my way across the finish line of my very first half marathon which, fittingly, finished in Golden Gate Park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music ends\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park revived me, gave me a space to rebuild myself after feeling pretty broken. And that’s why I’m excited to share today’s episode where we dig in on how it was created more than 150 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But first, let me introduce our special guest. Marta Lindsay has combed over every dell, every stone, every pathway to write a new book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, a Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. And she’s here to share some hot tips about the park today. Welcome, Marta. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so much for having me. This is a delight. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m so glad you could join us. What is it that captured your imagination about Golden Gate Park enough to spend all the time that I know it takes to write a book about it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, end of the day, I just really love Golden Gate Park, but I got into it in part because of having a fussy baby. If she was having one of those days where she’s super fussy, like you just have to get outside, right? And for us outside basically was Golden Gate park in the inner sunset area. And I think as I started to spend so much more time in the park, I just saw there was so much more to it than first meets the eye.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1625030704&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your book has so much information about the different spaces within the park, but today you’ve brought a few things to talk about that even the most devout park lovers might not know. Let’s start with some of those unique stones found in the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery stones. Yes. Once you know about these, then you’re always looking for them and it’s really fun because they are scattered all around the park. Go back in medieval times everyone, and we’re in Spain…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Around the year 1,200 at a monastery overlooking the Tagus River.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there is this incredibly beautiful series of buildings, kind of castle-like. And they were all made by hand by these monks who hand-carved all these limestones, thousands and thousands of stones.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The monastery built of these beautiful stones flourished for hundreds of years until the 1830s, but was shut down by royal decree.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And over the years, it was not used, and it was kind of falling apart. And enter William Randolph Hearst. He was, like, kind of the ultimate rich guy of the era. He owned the San Francisco Examiner. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, of course, Hearst Castle, the sprawling estate down in San Simeon. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He had someone who had scoped out this old monastery in Spain and was like, I think we should take the whole thing apart! Ship it to America and build another amazing castle, but in Northern California this time. 11 ships had to transport the stones of these multiple ancient buildings all the way to San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Depression takes enough wind out of the sails of Hearst’s fortune that this is an impossible thing. And so he ends up selling the stones to the city of San Francisco in 1941. So these stones are just sitting in this warehouse in San Francisco and they’re all marked by the way, when they took them apart, it was like, we got to be able to reassemble them. So they were marked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">essentially packed in wooden crates with instructions on the outside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Then there’s this idea to build a medieval art museum in Golden Gate Park using the stones. The stones are moved to Golden Gate Park, and then right away there’s a fire. And then there’s some more fires, which burned the markings off. This made it, at the time, impossible to reassemble. Then you’ve just got all these monastery stones sitting in Golden Gate park and what’s gonna happen to them. And eventually they just start using them for gardening. There’s a ton of them in the botanical gardens used in a variety of ways. And then also sometimes you’ll just find one here or there along a path. Some of them are really ornately carved and have like. You know, rounded edges and lots of, like, designs in them. If you go right into the main gate at the botanical garden, immediately to your left, they’ve built this whole wall and structure using them, and so you get to see kind of a variety of the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And also how neat to be able to touch these stones and think about the journey they took to get there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Them every day and have no idea that they’re walking by this medieval treasure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A lot of folks are probably familiar with the Beach Chalet, the restaurant at the very end of the park that borders on Ocean Beach. They have a lovely view of the Pacific, if you can get a spot in the dining room, which is tricky on the weekends, some solid food, but it can also get pretty crowded on a sunny day. I have heard that you have a tip about somewhere else to try just a short walk away.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s the golf clubhouse. I do not golf, but when I went there for researching the book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is a little hidden secret. They redid it a couple years ago and the patio is beautiful. And because of the way they redid the golf course, you can now see through the trees to the ocean, which I think is one of the very few places in the park that you’re actually like having ocean-ness in the background. And they have got this little clubhouse and they’re like serving up. Bill’s burger dog, trademark, which is one of three places you can get a Bill’s Burger Dog, which is basically a hamburger shaped like the size, like a hot dog bun size, but even better. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Did they put it in a hot dog bun?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s on a hot dog bun.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Then i\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t’s a burger?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>I\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">t is a burger.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you put burger toppings on it or hot dog toppings on?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I think you could go either way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the height of the COVID-19 shutdowns, the park really became, I think, a sanctuary for a lot of people, maybe including yourself. It was a way to get out of your house. It was way to interact with other people in a way that was, you know, a bit safer. Do something with your body. In this book, you mentioned that some people really started to make the park their own during that time. Can you tell us about some of those folks?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would say quietly during the pandemic, some parts of the park really were transformed in these really magical ways and a lot of people don’t know about them. One of them is if you’re walking along JFK Promenade and you get almost to the whale sculpture that’s in the middle of JFK promenade, on your right side would be 14th Avenue Meadow, which is where they have the beer garden in the summer with the free live music. And then right past that is, you’ll see like a lot of succulents and stuff. And this woman, Marta, happens to share my name.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During the pandemic. She’s like, ‘I was, you know, it was two weeks in, I was depressed, I had a house cleaning business and I couldn’t do that anymore.’ And she’s like I just started going to the park and then there was a rec and park gardener and I told them I was a hard worker and I needed something to do. And so she started tending that area and it’s totally transformed it. And again, like. You’ve got to get off the main path and then you’ll be on these little magical trails and it’s so pretty back there. And she has said, if you see her there, and she’s always wearing this large brimmed hat, like she has extra gloves, and you can go help her anytime.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The little paths that she’s created are especially cool because it looks like there’s just bushes lining the sidewalk there, but if you follow the woodchip paths that she has created back sort of beyond the bushes, there’s a whole little world back there that you can’t see from the main road. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One name that people have probably heard a lot related to Golden Gate Park is John McLaren. He was an early park superintendent who served for more than 50 years, and he did a lot to make the park the special place it is today. His fingerprints are really all over it. He comes up a lot in your book. Can you tell us what it is about him that captured your imagination.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So John McLaren oversaw the park starting in 1890. And William Hammond Hall created the canvas, but then John McLaren was the artist and he really ran with it. And at that time he took over half of the park still had nothing had happened to it yet. Half of the Park, the dunes had been reclaimed and things were starting to be planted, but that was still a whole half of park to deal with, and John McLaren oversaw it all. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">His vision for the park was just right on, with wanting it to really feel like an escape into nature. And he had to fight a lot of fights during those years to try to hold to that. But he also was this master gardener with this just eye for design that was. Really special for the time too because the parks that existed at that time were mostly European parks but nature doesn’t run in a straight line was one of his quotes. His favorite thing was the dells. He loved to have flowers growing within a grove of trees somewhere so it’s like you stumble on to this little magical scene right and because he was on the job for so long he was really able to realize that. I just think of how much of what we think of as the look and feel of the park it’s John McLaren.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can find much more about John McLaren in Marta’s book, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Discovering Golden Gate Park, A Local’s Guide\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. Find it wherever books are sold. Marta Lindsay, thank you so much for talking with us today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marta Lindsey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you so for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When we return, The Making of Golden Gate park. Stay with us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Next up, producer Katrina Schwartz and I are exploring the early history of how Golden Gate Park was built.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There are a lot of stories about how this park came to be. One tale goes that only a magical combination of horse manure and spit was enough to tame the sandy soil and make it rich enough for plants to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, I’m no gardener, but even to me, that sounds a little far-fetched. To find some definitive answers, we headed over to the northeast corner of the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So this little path says Oak Woodland Path. should we go up there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, let’s check it out. Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The trees we walked through were here before anything else in the park. It’s one of the few areas that remains relatively unchanged.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is an old-growth forest. These would be descendants of the trees that were cut down for firewood during the gold rush. It predated the park, it predated European colonization here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re here with Nicole Meldahl, the executive director of the Western Neighborhoods Project, a community history nonprofit focused on the west side of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s just behind the conservatory flowers, kind of hidden.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We decided to start here because it was this corner of the park where trees grew naturally that gave park creators the confidence they could make the rest of the Park green.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As beautiful as the Oak Grove is, we are still surrounded by the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Trucks that back up are the worst. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We kept going deeper and deeper into the park, hoping to find a quiet spot for our interview.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sorry, we’re off-roading a little. I thought it was a path, but then it became not a path.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Nicole says what we now know as Golden Gate Park, a lush place with winding pathways, protected dells and lots of recreation, wasn’t even part of the city at first.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What did this place look like at the beginning of the gold rush?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">An 1853 map of this area, called it the Great Sand Bank. So yeah, it was very empty, isolated. There were a few scattered beach cottages for some adventurous folks. There were homesteaders out here.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco’s population skyrocketed during the years after the gold rush, and city leaders had big ambitions. But first, they needed more space. In the Outside Lands Act of 1866, the western half of the city became part of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">San Francisco has always thought of itself as like a great, amazing city, right? And it is, we definitely know it is. But really it was the new kid in town. So at some point they decided they needed a park that was befitting of the amazing city that they hoped to build this into.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As luck would have it, the landscape architect Frederick Law Olmsted, famous for designing Central Park in New York, was traveling in California. City leaders asked for his opinion about building the new park in the newly acquired Outside Lands.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And he was like, oh no, no, you can never build a park here. Trees won’t grow in these sand dunes, so I recommend the other side of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">City leaders did not like that recommendation, so instead of following Olmsted’s advice, they found someone else who promised he could transform the dunes into forest. A young surveyor from Stockton named William Hammond Hall.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So how did Hammond Hall turn the Great Sandy Bank into this park that we know and love?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, there’s a legend about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some with less veritable facts…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Legend goes Hammond Hall is out with his team surveying the land after the city designated it for the park in 1870.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’ve got their horses with them\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and one of the horse’s feed buckets that hangs around their nose drops, and the barley that’s in their feed spills out into the sand. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then, of course, you need a little fertilizer. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, manure from the same horse that the barley fell out of the feed bag from landed directly on top of this little patch. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When Hammond hog comes back through that area in a week or so, the quick growing barley from the horse’s bucket has already taken root and is growing. And William Hammond Hall goes…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is going to be the secret recipe for how we tame these dunes, because if you combine the quick growing barley with native lupine here, that will sort of stabilize the dunes long enough to allow for these trees that he wanted to put through the park as wind breaks to grow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s all a little convenient, isn’t it? Nicole thinks elements of this story are true, but the mythical telling leaves out some context. First, historians have recently discovered that there was a farm on the eastern edge of the park that grew barley.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, Hammond Hall probably already knew barley could grow here. And second, the process of reclaiming sand by starting with small, quick-growing grasses to build up topsoil before planting trees on top of them was already a well-established practice in Europe. As for the horse manure part of the legend, that is where we get to street sweepers. And no, I’m not talking about the kind that get you a parking ticket.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was common practice for the city to use horse manure they collected in the streets because this is still an era where people used horses on a daily basis so it was a sort of thrifty way to fertilize city parks and areas around town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that’s how acres and acres of sand dunes were transformed into forest. No spit, but there was definitely manure.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were just about to ask Nicole about the park’s many hills and dells, when who should come strolling by but the guy who literally wrote a book on Golden Gate Park’s history? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chris Pollock?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my god! Hi! We’re from Be Curious. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The park’s historian in the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi! Lovely to meet you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What a coincidence!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a happy meeting because in addition to the land reclamation technique Nicole has been describing, Hammond Hall did something else pretty ingenious when he was superintendent of the park. Chris Pollack calls it respecting the genius of the place.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what the genius of the place means is utilizing what you’ve got to work with to the best ability you can.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Basically respect that the landscape looks the way it does for a reason.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What that meant was a very efficient way of using the sand dunes as the existing topography, for the most part, to create this undulating, kind of interesting landscape, because to have it just flat would have been rather boring and counterintuitive to the idea of sustainable environment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They knew that the wind coming off the ocean was their worst enemy. If they leveled the park, the wind would continue to push sand eastward and kill new plantings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Pollock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the area behind the sand dune, it wouldn’t be so windy there, and it might be more hospitable to plant something there as opposed to on the windy side of the sand dunes. So there was a lot of selection being done.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hidden dells, small hills, and winding paths in the park are the result of using the genius of the place in the design.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Hammond Hall started greening the eastern end of the park, slowly moving westward. But he simultaneously took on the far west end near the beach. Stopping the sand dunes from encroaching was critical to the success of the project. Here’s Nicole again.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like okay we’re gonna build a fence and we’re going to put the planks really close together and the dunes will come up and it will hit against that fence. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As the sand piled up it made a windbreak \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And on the other side of the fence you know where the dunes aren’t we’re start planning all these things and it’ll start growing up and the Dunes will up to the top of the fence and then we’ll build the fence higher.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today, at the far western end of the park, you can still see Hammond Hall’s idea at work. Large trees and bushes protect the intersections of the Park from the sand that comes whipping across the Great Highway, and little sand dunes sometimes pile up at the park’s edges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Within five years, San Franciscans were delighted by their new park. An 1875 article in the San Francisco Examiner said,\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Calling to mind the inhospitable desolate aspect of the region a few years since, we cannot but regard with favor the result.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hammond Hall had the sand mostly under control, but something else had become unruly. The politics of the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In general, there was a lot of graft in the city at the time, and William Hammond Hall didn’t like it. So he tried to control what he could with his powers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Superintendent of the park. He fired a blacksmith for padding his contract. A blacksmith who, unfortunately for Hammond Hall, ended up becoming a state legislator. He sought his revenge by blocking funding for the park and accused Hammond hall of misusing park resources.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The allegations were completely false. However, William Hammond Hall had enough. In 1876, he resigns and the entire Park Commission resigns because they’re so disgusted by what they’re seeing as politics getting in the way of a beautiful city park that the city wanted.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The years that followed were bad ones for Golden Gate Park. Hammond Hall’s plans were neglected.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this sort of falls to the wayside because there’s no money and more people who come to power on the Commission aren’t there for the right reason.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many men with railroad interests were appointed to the Park Commission and lo and behold a railroad gets built to the park — and is barely taxed. And more buildings are popping up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All these things start to materialize that aren’t the wilderness that was initially envisioned here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Though some of the park’s most beloved attractions did come from this time period.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You have the Conservatory of Flowers, which was a bunch of very wealthy men who purchased it from another wealthy man, James Lick, who had passed away and gifted it to the city that put it here.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Without a fierce defender of the initial vision for the park, tensions arose over what the park should be. A wild green space where people could connect with nature, or a cultural center to showcase the growing wealth and power of the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1890, the Park Commission promoted a man named John McLaren from assistant superintendent up to superintendent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">John McLaren, I think he’s one of the most universally beloved city employees of all time. They built him a giant house. McLaren Lodge was built in 1896 specifically for him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Many people think John McLaren was the first superintendent of the park. He wasn’t, but he did continue to build it up in line with the vision Hammond Hall set forward.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He just did it without making so many enemies.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This is the most famous story you’re ever gonna hear when it comes to John McLaren, is he hated statues in the park, hated them. So he would let them put it wherever it was. They’ve always made a big deal. And then John McLarin would very quietly plant things around the monuments that would grow up over time and totally obscure them so you couldn’t see them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You can still find statues nearly hidden by bushes around the music concourse today.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">McLaren worked in the park for more than 50 years, overseeing its transformation into the urban gem it is today. Millions of people visit the park each year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">William Hammond Hall, on the other hand, often gets forgotten. But the two men had a lot in common.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nicole Meldahl: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They really stuck to their principles. They didn’t like graft. They didn’t like to see people throwing their weight around for other reasons than making this park better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They were truly public servants who loved the park. Hammond Hall once wrote:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">With drives and rides for the rich, and pleasant rambles for the poor, quiet retreats for those who would be to themselves, and thronged promenades for the gaily disposed, and open grounds for lovers of boisterous sports, and tracks adapted to the special wants of children. The modern urban park is, indeed, the municipality’s open-air assembly room, acceptable, alike to all, and pleasing to each of her citizens.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">During our day in the park, it was inspiring to see how vibrant this place is. We saw school kids volunteering, cyclists whizzing by, couples out for a romantic stroll, and folks enjoying a quiet moment on a bench.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">clear the park is a place for everyone, just like Hammond Hall imagined it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Olivia Allen Price: And I’m Olivia Allen Price. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Special thanks to Chris Pollock, whose book, San Francisco’s Golden Gate Park, 1,017 Acres of Stories, has all kinds of fun facts about the park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Nicole Meldahl, who you can hear on the Outside Lands San Francisco Podcast. They go deep on the history of the city western neighborhoods. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And thanks to Brendan Willard, Sebastian Mino-Buccelli, Kiana Mogadam, Sarah Rose Leonard, Lance Gardner.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Kao, Christopher Beale, Katie Springer, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, and Ethan Tovan Lindsay. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have a few Bay Curious events coming up. First up is \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6151\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious Trivia\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> on April 8th here at KQED’s headquarters in the Mission District. If you’ve been following the show for a while, you know to scoop up tickets quickly because they will sell out. Details at kqed.org slash live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other event we have coming up is a brand new one for us, and it’s in Golden Gate Park at the \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/event/6232\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Conservatory of Flowers on June 20th and 21st\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. We are creating a historically-themed, immersive experience that is going to bring the past of this beautiful building and all its incredible exhibits to life. Join us for an interactive game that will allow you to explore the history of the conservatory and the people who created it. Space is limited. There are timed tours that will be running throughout the evening on both nights. So go ahead and register. That’s also at kqed.org slash live. Hope to see you there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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},
"closealltabs": {
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"order": 1
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"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"meta": {
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},
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"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"hidden-brain": {
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
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"source": "NPR"
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"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
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"order": 15
},
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"order": 18
},
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},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
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},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
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},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
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"meta": {
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"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
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"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
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"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
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"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
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"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
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"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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},
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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