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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003ca href=\"#A\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you live in the Bay Area — or even just visited — chances are you’ve set foot on a former military base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most people know the Presidio, which dates back to the Spanish, and Fort Mason, which launched over a million troops into the Pacific during World War II. The sites are now a mix of commerce, open space, and homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are other popular places — that you may not have known used to be old military stomping grounds — like the Bay Area Discovery Museum in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other military sites have been collecting dust for decades, like Point Molate in Richmond, which is vacant and closed off to the public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Cameron Tobey wanted to know why there are so many abandoned military bases in the Bay Area, and what is being done with them now (check out our other story about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">the rise and fall of the military in the Bay Area\u003c/a>).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Decades after the military shuttered operations, many of these sites are mired in the drawn out process of being repurposed, redeveloped, razed and re-envisioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8389321979\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The case of Mare Island\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are dozens of former military sites around the Bay Area — according to author and historian \u003ca href=\"http://drelouise.com\">Elouise Epstein\u003c/a> — and they all have their own redevelopment story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The former Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo is one of several former military sites that’s still in some stage of transition. \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/organization-and-administration/historic-bases/mare-island.html\">Opened back in 1854\u003c/a>, it was one of the most active navy yards in the world during World War II. But in 1996, the base was closed, along with many other Bay Area sites, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">during the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023596\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1148px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023596\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1148\" height=\"717\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon.jpg 1148w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon-800x500.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon-1020x637.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon-160x100.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1148px) 100vw, 1148px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A US Navy vehicle tows ‘pie wagons’ that carried food from the cafeterias to the individual shops to feed the workers during WW2 on Mare Island. This photograph is dated April 3, 1944. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, Mare Island (which is actually a peninsula) is open to the public, and spans 5,000 acres. It’s a combination of vast open space, a few hundred homes tucked away in clusters, and a handful of retail businesses. The most active area is in the warehouse district, which hosts manufacturers like high-end furniture makers and modular home builders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitors to the island will see a post-industrial landscape with some intriguing charm. There are beautifully restored historic buildings right next to abandoned lots and randomly placed palm trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023741\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023741\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-800x267.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-1020x340.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-2048x682.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-1920x640.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: The main door on Building 85 on Mare Island was expanded to remove a piece of machinery built inside in this undated archival image. Right: Inside Building 85, an old warehouse where submarines and other machines were made, sits empty on Mare Island, Vallejo, Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Left: Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation Right: David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s been this sort of hidden thing for a long, long time,” \u003cem>s\u003c/em>ays Kent Fortner, a resident, founder of the Mare Island Brewing Company, and board president of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mihpf.org/\">Mare Island Historic Park Foundation\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you have any desire to know Naval history from particularly World War I and World War II, this place makes your hair stand on end,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a tour of the island, Fortner pointed out the signs of Navy life all over the place — cannons\u003cem>, \u003c/em>a giant metal anchor hidden in the bushes, an ammunition bunker and a firing range. The most impressive remnants are the huge rusty metal cranes on the main historic wharf that were used to repair and build large warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s mind-boggling how large these ships were,” Fortner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023733\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 558px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023733\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"558\" height=\"630\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989.jpg 558w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989-160x181.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 558px) 100vw, 558px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The USS Chicago being prepared for launching at Mare Island, Vallejo, April 8, 1930. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even though Navy contamination has mostly been cleaned up, and Hollywood regularly drops in (see TV shows \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383126/\">\u003cem>Mythbusters\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837492/\">\u003cem>13 Reasons Why\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, and the movie \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4701182/\">\u003cem>Bumblebee\u003c/em>\u003c/a>), the former Navy base still doesn’t have enough amenities to make it a big residential draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I can’t say that it’s thriving right now,” said Fortner about the lack of retail businesses, modern parks and walkable neighborhoods. “I mean, converting these naval bases is so complex.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does it take so long to redevelop military sites?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Navy shipyards like the ones on Mare Island, Hunters Point and in Concord closed decades ago. So why is it taking so long to reinvent them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regional planners and developers agree the environmental clean up from the military can take decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The military have never been famous for their environmental stewardship,” said Matt Regan, senior vice president for public policy at the Bay Area Council. “So there’s definitely cleanup challenges, which is expensive.\u003cem>”\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Navy left, Mare Island grappled with mercury and PCB contamination, petroleum in the soil, and underground fuel tanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco’s Bayview was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The city wants to put 10,000 homes there, but it’s been mired in a host of cleanup controversies. The Navy has spent decades cleaning there, but the work isn’t done (\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12005257/the-hunters-point-cranes-legacy-is-both-majestic-and-troubling\">check out the Bay Curious episode on this\u003c/a>).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soliciting public input on plans for redevelopment is another process that takes a long time. In the former Concord Naval Weapons Station’s case, that took seven years.[aside postID=news_12022479 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00333-1020x680.jpg']“We had a whole series of options and there were eight alternatives,” said Guy Bjerke, who is directing the base reuse project for the city of Concord. “So the process of developing community consensus is a challenge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A third major factor complicating the reinvention of these spaces is keeping private developers onboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers assume a lot of financial risk when they take on massive naval base reuse projects, according to Mark Shorett, a principal regional planner with the Association of Bay Area Governments (ABAG).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Developers often pay for and install basic infrastructure like sewer, water and electricity for these sites, before they even start building “vertical” infrastructure like buildings. Because the environmental cleanup, community input process and regulatory processes take many years, developers may decide it doesn’t “pencil out” — and then walk away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re trying to create a profitable project and in some cases it’s very challenging for them to do that in the context of a long-range plan,” Shorett said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And he points out that in other countries private developers don’t typically get involved in the creation of infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023761\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023761\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abandoned buildings at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on March 8, 2022. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023764\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023764\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-800x267.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-1020x340.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-2048x682.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-1920x640.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: An abandoned building at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on March 8, 2022. Right: Apartment buildings in the Bayview sit behind the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on March 8, 2022. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Concord base reuse project is, again, an example of incurring delays because of trouble with developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their base closed in 2005, and the site is now working with its third developer. The first company left after labor disputes. The second one was essentially dismissed by the city council. The current reuse plan includes 12,000 housing units, a sports complex and a college campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Finding a master developer who is willing to meet community expectations around how the project should develop [has] been a complicated process,” said Bjerke, adding that it will probably be another four to six years before anything is built above ground in Concord.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is there a larger vision connecting different military sites?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There’s a strong desire to create new housing on the Bay Area’s former military sites, especially the Navy bases, according to Shorett with ABAG, the planning agency for the Bay Area’s 101 cities. Not only are these sites valuable because of their sheer size, but because they’re transit friendly. They can help meet the area’s affordable housing and climate goals by keeping people where they work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Housing has already successfully been built on former bases. Treasure Island was once Navy stomping grounds and now has a lot of apartments, with more on the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.novato.org/our-town/hamilton-field#:~:text=Constructed%20in%20the%20early%201930's,open%20space%2C%20and%20civic%20uses.\">new residential community on the former Hamilton Air Force Base in Novato\u003c/a> is another example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shorett said the redevelopment success at the Presidio and Fort Mason have no doubt been related to the fact that they’re on national park land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The federal government is able to continue to be involved over the long term with less constraints around needing to make a profit,” said Shorett.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said one way to speed up development on some of these naval sites is to divide up big parcels of land so all the financial risk doesn’t fall on one developer. That way, multiple agencies can move forward with different projects at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1512985227\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Artists are using the abandoned spaces\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While regional planners are eyeing the former military sites for housing, other people like them just how they are. History buffs, artists and makers like them raw, industrial, with lots of open space to create.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We find ourselves pretty at home here,” said Kevin Corcoran, one of the founders of \u003ca href=\"https://www.re-sound.net/new-events-1\">Re: Sound\u003cem>, \u003c/em>a group of experimental sound artists\u003c/a> that have been holding performances at Mare Island for 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recently, a cellist from Seattle, Lori Goldston, played in an empty metal storage shed right on the historic dock, surrounded by giant rusty cranes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is just one of many people here who have found a new purpose for the historic navy architecture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s nice to see all this infrastructure being put to good use,” she said. “I’ve seen a lot of empty space and wonder why there aren’t more things happening here\u003cem>.\u003c/em>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While it might seem like the sprawling military bases found throughout the Bay Area are just sitting, in reality many of them are making their way through some kind of redevelopment process. But cleaning up after the military takes time. We’ll likely see more built on these sites — probably housing — but it’s going to take a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"A\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey everyone. This is Olivia Allen-Price. And last week on Bay Curious, we heard all about how the Bay Area went from military powerhouse to being left with dozens of vacant facilities. All to answer this question from listener Cameron Tobey…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cameron Tobey: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many abandoned military bases around the Bay Area? And what’s the future plans for these bases?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you didn’t hear the episode, go give it a listen. It gets into the rise and fall of the military presence here. Today, we’re focusing on the future — what’s next for these spaces? Cameron is especially interested in if they can be used for housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cameron Toby: \u003c/strong>You have a lot of abandoned homes in these. Do they plan on redeveloping those homes? Cuz we’re in desperate need of housing here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’ll see how some old military sites are being repurposed, redeveloped, razed and re-envisioned. Sometimes in really creative ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone speaking on site during a musical performance at Mare Island: \u003c/strong>Here we go, we’re going to walk inside this warehouse where the performance is going to be…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of cello music reverberating in an old military building made of metal\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re also going to delve into why decades after the armed forces left, many of these spaces are still stuck in the long process of reinventing themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>I don’t think anybody has a playbook for this. I mean, converting these naval bases is so complex…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s all ahead on Bay Curious. Just after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here to help us look at what is happening at the decommissioned military sites around the Bay Area is Pauline Bartolone. Welcome, Pauline!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Hey Olivia. Great to be here!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, before we dive in, let’s acknowledge that there are dozens of former military sites around the Bay Area, and they all have their own story in terms of being redeveloped. So we’re going to talk about a few of them specifically, and then also broader trends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Right! Some of these military sites are relatively small, like a swath of World War II barracks, and others are huge Navy bases covering several square miles. Chances are you’ve probably set foot on one without even realizing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many people know the Presidio, and Fort Mason in San Francisco, which is now a mix of commercial, open space, and homes. There are other popular places like the Bay Area Discovery Museum in Sausalito, which is on a former army site. But then places mostly closed off to the public, like Point Molate in Richmond, which looks like it’s been collecting dust for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So some of these sites have been successfully redeveloped?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Another would be Treasure Island. It was once Navy stomping grounds and now has a lot of apartments, with more on the way. Way more. But a lot of the spots I learned about were very much in some stage of transition. Especially the former big Navy bases, like Mare Island in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You heard a lot about the Mare Island Naval Shipyard on the last episode. It opened more than 150 years ago, just after the Gold Rush, and was one of the most active Navy yards in the world during World War II. But 30 years ago, the Navy stopped maintaining ships and submarines there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The contamination from the Navy has mostly been cleaned up, but it hasn’t really taken shape as a new viable, residential community. The whole swath of land, which by the way is actually a peninsula … long story … is about 5000 acres.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambiance from the base fades up\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, there are just a few hundred homes there, a handful of retail businesses and a pretty active industrial sector. Anyone who takes a tour of it — which I did, it’s open to the public — will see it’s an eclectic mix of revitalization, and decay. But it has an intriguing charm. It’s a vast post-industrial landscape with beautifully restored historic buildings, right next to abandoned lots and warehouses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>It’s been this sort of hidden thing for a long, long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kent Fortner is a perfect person to show me around. He’s a resident, and a business owner here. He converted an old Navy coal shed and turned it into the Mare Island Brewing Company. When he’s not brewing beer, he’s researching the area’s history through the local historic association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>if you have any desire to know naval history from particularly World War I and World War II, this place makes your hair stand on end…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of car door slamming\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>So we’ll drive through the old officers road down here…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The residential neighborhoods are mostly tucked away in a couple of clusters. So you can drive for a block or two and see nothing but pavement on each side, then, a randomly placed palm tree. Actually, the trees here are a sight to see. Apparently the Navy collected saplings from all over the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>Arborists from all over come to look at all of this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>There are more signs of Navy life all over the place. Kent pointed a lot of them out during our drive. Like cannons…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>The cannons you see over here…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And giant metal anchors taller than most of us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>…Hidden in the bushes over here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>An ammunition bunker and a firing range…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>There’s still bullet casings and potentially unexploded bullets in the soil. So that needs to be cleaned up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, an old Navy hospital that specialized in lost limbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>This is where you came to get your prosthetic fixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>But the most glaring remnants of the Navy are the huge rusty metal cranes on the main historic wharf. There’s a row of them — towering several stories high, with massive empty concrete dry dock for the ships below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>Those are cranes that can lift incredible amounts of weight and that’s how they would assemble the ships back in the day … it’s mind boggling how large these ships were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>A number of Hollywood producers have been drawn in by the patchwork of landscapes here, using Mare Island as a backdrop for movies and TV shows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Movie sound effect of robot transforming\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Like \u003cem>Bumblebee\u003c/em>, the transformer movie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Clip from \u003c/em>13 Reasons Why\u003cem>: “Omg … What are you?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the more quiet teenage thriller, \u003cem>13 Reasons Why\u003c/em> on Netflix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Clip from \u003c/em>13 Reasons Why\u003cem>: Voice 1 “I’m not going, not now, not ever.” Voice 2: “Why didn’t you say this to me when I was alive?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>But it’s not all military ruins. There are signs of rebirth too. Touro University bought the Navy hospital and holds classes there. Dozens of manufacturing-type businesses have set up here — high end furniture makers, modular home builders, and alcohol entrepreneurs, like Kent. But in terms of amenities for everyday living, like stores, modern parks and walkable neighborhoods … the former military base is not there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>I can’t say that it’s thriving right now. But we’re in this weird seam between when all the cleanup had to get done and when the new stuff is all going to start getting developed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So Pauline … the Mare Island Navy Shipyard closed back in the mid 1990s. Other bases also closed decades ago. Why does it take so long to reinvent them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Well I talked to regional planners, developers and city officials and heard some common things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Number one is there is just a lot of environmental clean up to do on military sites. In Mare Island’s case, things like mercury, petroleum, underground fuel tanks, PCBs (those are chemicals in electrical equipment that were banned in the ’70s.) And this clean up takes a really long time. Like decades. Mare island’s not fully done with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another process that takes a long time is public input to come up with a new plan for the site. In one case I heard, that took 7 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And a third factor is, it’s hard to keep private developers in the game. The developers are for-profit, and they assume a lot of risk and front-end costs in these massive projects. They take on basic infrastructure like sewer, water and electricity for these sites. They have to prove to their shareholders that the project will “pencil out” over a long period. One regional planner I talked to says the amount of investment private developers take on in these projects is pretty unique to the U.S. — he says in other countries the private sector wouldn’t be as involved at the infrastructure stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s interesting. Can you tell me more about this problem keeping private developers engaged?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the former Concord Naval Weapons Station is a perfect example of this. Their base closed in 2005, and they’re on their third private developer. The first developer left after labor disputes. The second developer was essentially booted by the city council. Now they have an ambitious plan for 12,000 housing units, a sports complex, even a college campus on the former site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I talked to Guy Bjerke with the City of Concord about their drawn out process, and he says there are many regulatory steps they have to wait out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Bjerke: \u003c/strong>The need to get all of the resource permitting for wetlands and endangered species, and cultural sites right and the burial grounds. and those sorts of things. The need to work with the Navy to both monitor and facilitate how they’re cleaning up the sites so it can be turned into housing. So these are all complicated issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Bjerke says it’s probably going to be another 4–6 years before people see anything built above ground on the former Concord base. And again it closed 20 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As for some of the other military sites … what are some of the plans for development there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Well in general there’s a strong desire to create new housing on these sites, especially on the five major Navy bases like Mare Island, Alameda and Concord. Not only do these sites have a lot of acreage, but they’re also transit friendly, so they can help meet the area’s affordable housing and climate goals by keeping people where they work as opposed to commuting from Tracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are examples of housing built on military sites. The former Hamilton Air Force Base in Novato, in Marin County, is just one example, and of course, Treasure Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One note here — We’ve done some reporting on the redevelopment of the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco’s Bayview, another massive project in the works. The base was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The city wants to put 10,000 homes on the land … but it’s been mired in a host of cleanup controversies. The Navy has spent decades cleaning there, but the work isn’t done. There are major concerns about contaminants they may have missed, and how sea-level rise could cause deeply buried toxins to resurface. Additional clean up is planned. There’s a lot to that story, more than we can get into right now, but we’ll link to some resources in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pauline, What can we learn from the sites that have been successfully redeveloped?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Well I’m told places like the Presidio and Fort Mason have really benefited from being on national park land. They’ve had one consistent owner with steady revenue — the federal government — which can see through a long term vision for the place. For the other spaces, one proposal I heard for speeding up the development is to essentially divide the projects up so a collection of groups can move things along at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sounds like reinventing these sites is very complicated and involves a lot of different players, but perhaps that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Right … I do want to say that some people like the bases just how they are: raw, industrial, with lots of open space. History buffs for sure, and artists and makers. There’s plenty of space to create. In fact, a group of sound artists have been holding performances regularly at Mare Island for 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of a crowd gathering in a big room. A voice says “Hello everybody”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>They call the series Re:Sound … And it’s pretty experimental.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music played with a cello\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The day I went, a cellist named Lori Goldston from Seattle was playing … improvising of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music played with a cello\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>She performed in an empty metal storage shed right on the historic dock. The giant rusty cranes were all around us. The Navy architecture was part of the show … the metal walls creaked with the breeze. The audience sat on the concrete floor, which was once covered with military supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Distant birds with cello music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Many listened with their eyes closed, almost in a trance, taking in the string music and the birds in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Artists like Lori Goldston are among many people here who are working with the island’s rich history just as it is, while finding a new purpose for it at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Goldston: \u003c/strong>It’s nice to see all this infrastructure being put to good use. I’ve seen a lot of empty space and wonder why there aren’t more things happening here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>We’ll see more built on these military bases. Probably housing. But it’s going to take a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Pauline Bartolone, thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks to listener Cameron Tobey for asking the question that sparked this two-part story. And a special thanks to Matt Regan of the Bay Area Council and Mark Shorett of the Association of Bay Area Governments for their expertise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in SF at member-supported KQED. Find out more about becoming a member, and supported the work of Bay Curious, at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additional Support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and everyone on Team KQED. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003ca href=\"#A\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you live in the Bay Area — or even just visited — chances are you’ve set foot on a former military base.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most people know the Presidio, which dates back to the Spanish, and Fort Mason, which launched over a million troops into the Pacific during World War II. The sites are now a mix of commerce, open space, and homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then there are other popular places — that you may not have known used to be old military stomping grounds — like the Bay Area Discovery Museum in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Other military sites have been collecting dust for decades, like Point Molate in Richmond, which is vacant and closed off to the public.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Cameron Tobey wanted to know why there are so many abandoned military bases in the Bay Area, and what is being done with them now (check out our other story about \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">the rise and fall of the military in the Bay Area\u003c/a>).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Decades after the military shuttered operations, many of these sites are mired in the drawn out process of being repurposed, redeveloped, razed and re-envisioned.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8389321979\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The case of Mare Island\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are dozens of former military sites around the Bay Area — according to author and historian \u003ca href=\"http://drelouise.com\">Elouise Epstein\u003c/a> — and they all have their own redevelopment story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The former Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo is one of several former military sites that’s still in some stage of transition. \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/organization-and-administration/historic-bases/mare-island.html\">Opened back in 1854\u003c/a>, it was one of the most active navy yards in the world during World War II. But in 1996, the base was closed, along with many other Bay Area sites, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">during the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) process\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023596\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1148px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023596\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1148\" height=\"717\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon.jpg 1148w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon-800x500.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon-1020x637.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Pie-Wagon-160x100.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1148px) 100vw, 1148px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A US Navy vehicle tows ‘pie wagons’ that carried food from the cafeterias to the individual shops to feed the workers during WW2 on Mare Island. This photograph is dated April 3, 1944. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Now, Mare Island (which is actually a peninsula) is open to the public, and spans 5,000 acres. It’s a combination of vast open space, a few hundred homes tucked away in clusters, and a handful of retail businesses. The most active area is in the warehouse district, which hosts manufacturers like high-end furniture makers and modular home builders.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Visitors to the island will see a post-industrial landscape with some intriguing charm. There are beautifully restored historic buildings right next to abandoned lots and randomly placed palm trees.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023741\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023741\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-800x267.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-1020x340.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-2048x682.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2-1920x640.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: The main door on Building 85 on Mare Island was expanded to remove a piece of machinery built inside in this undated archival image. Right: Inside Building 85, an old warehouse where submarines and other machines were made, sits empty on Mare Island, Vallejo, Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(Left: Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation Right: David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s been this sort of hidden thing for a long, long time,” \u003cem>s\u003c/em>ays Kent Fortner, a resident, founder of the Mare Island Brewing Company, and board president of the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mihpf.org/\">Mare Island Historic Park Foundation\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If you have any desire to know Naval history from particularly World War I and World War II, this place makes your hair stand on end,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a tour of the island, Fortner pointed out the signs of Navy life all over the place — cannons\u003cem>, \u003c/em>a giant metal anchor hidden in the bushes, an ammunition bunker and a firing range. The most impressive remnants are the huge rusty metal cranes on the main historic wharf that were used to repair and build large warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s mind-boggling how large these ships were,” Fortner said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023733\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 558px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023733\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"558\" height=\"630\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989.jpg 558w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Launch-of-Ship-e1737657619989-160x181.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 558px) 100vw, 558px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The USS Chicago being prepared for launching at Mare Island, Vallejo, April 8, 1930. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even though Navy contamination has mostly been cleaned up, and Hollywood regularly drops in (see TV shows \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383126/\">\u003cem>Mythbusters\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837492/\">\u003cem>13 Reasons Why\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, and the movie \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4701182/\">\u003cem>Bumblebee\u003c/em>\u003c/a>), the former Navy base still doesn’t have enough amenities to make it a big residential draw.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I can’t say that it’s thriving right now,” said Fortner about the lack of retail businesses, modern parks and walkable neighborhoods. “I mean, converting these naval bases is so complex.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does it take so long to redevelop military sites?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Navy shipyards like the ones on Mare Island, Hunters Point and in Concord closed decades ago. So why is it taking so long to reinvent them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Regional planners and developers agree the environmental clean up from the military can take decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The military have never been famous for their environmental stewardship,” said Matt Regan, senior vice president for public policy at the Bay Area Council. “So there’s definitely cleanup challenges, which is expensive.\u003cem>”\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the Navy left, Mare Island grappled with mercury and PCB contamination, petroleum in the soil, and underground fuel tanks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco’s Bayview was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The city wants to put 10,000 homes there, but it’s been mired in a host of cleanup controversies. The Navy has spent decades cleaning there, but the work isn’t done (\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12005257/the-hunters-point-cranes-legacy-is-both-majestic-and-troubling\">check out the Bay Curious episode on this\u003c/a>).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soliciting public input on plans for redevelopment is another process that takes a long time. In the former Concord Naval Weapons Station’s case, that took seven years.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“We had a whole series of options and there were eight alternatives,” said Guy Bjerke, who is directing the base reuse project for the city of Concord. “So the process of developing community consensus is a challenge.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A third major factor complicating the reinvention of these spaces is keeping private developers onboard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Private developers assume a lot of financial risk when they take on massive naval base reuse projects, according to Mark Shorett, a principal regional planner with the Association of Bay Area Governments (ABAG).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Developers often pay for and install basic infrastructure like sewer, water and electricity for these sites, before they even start building “vertical” infrastructure like buildings. Because the environmental cleanup, community input process and regulatory processes take many years, developers may decide it doesn’t “pencil out” — and then walk away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re trying to create a profitable project and in some cases it’s very challenging for them to do that in the context of a long-range plan,” Shorett said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And he points out that in other countries private developers don’t typically get involved in the creation of infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023761\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023761\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1331\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-800x532.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-160x106.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-1536x1022.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/038_KQED_BaykeeperBayviewHuntersPoint_03082022_qed-1920x1278.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Abandoned buildings at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on March 8, 2022. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023764\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023764\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-800x267.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-1020x340.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-2048x682.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-3-1920x640.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: An abandoned building at the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on March 8, 2022. Right: Apartment buildings in the Bayview sit behind the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco on March 8, 2022. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Concord base reuse project is, again, an example of incurring delays because of trouble with developers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their base closed in 2005, and the site is now working with its third developer. The first company left after labor disputes. The second one was essentially dismissed by the city council. The current reuse plan includes 12,000 housing units, a sports complex and a college campus.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Finding a master developer who is willing to meet community expectations around how the project should develop [has] been a complicated process,” said Bjerke, adding that it will probably be another four to six years before anything is built above ground in Concord.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Is there a larger vision connecting different military sites?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There’s a strong desire to create new housing on the Bay Area’s former military sites, especially the Navy bases, according to Shorett with ABAG, the planning agency for the Bay Area’s 101 cities. Not only are these sites valuable because of their sheer size, but because they’re transit friendly. They can help meet the area’s affordable housing and climate goals by keeping people where they work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Housing has already successfully been built on former bases. Treasure Island was once Navy stomping grounds and now has a lot of apartments, with more on the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The \u003ca href=\"https://www.novato.org/our-town/hamilton-field#:~:text=Constructed%20in%20the%20early%201930's,open%20space%2C%20and%20civic%20uses.\">new residential community on the former Hamilton Air Force Base in Novato\u003c/a> is another example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Shorett said the redevelopment success at the Presidio and Fort Mason have no doubt been related to the fact that they’re on national park land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The federal government is able to continue to be involved over the long term with less constraints around needing to make a profit,” said Shorett.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said one way to speed up development on some of these naval sites is to divide up big parcels of land so all the financial risk doesn’t fall on one developer. That way, multiple agencies can move forward with different projects at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1512985227\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Artists are using the abandoned spaces\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While regional planners are eyeing the former military sites for housing, other people like them just how they are. History buffs, artists and makers like them raw, industrial, with lots of open space to create.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We find ourselves pretty at home here,” said Kevin Corcoran, one of the founders of \u003ca href=\"https://www.re-sound.net/new-events-1\">Re: Sound\u003cem>, \u003c/em>a group of experimental sound artists\u003c/a> that have been holding performances at Mare Island for 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Recently, a cellist from Seattle, Lori Goldston, played in an empty metal storage shed right on the historic dock, surrounded by giant rusty cranes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She is just one of many people here who have found a new purpose for the historic navy architecture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s nice to see all this infrastructure being put to good use,” she said. “I’ve seen a lot of empty space and wonder why there aren’t more things happening here\u003cem>.\u003c/em>”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While it might seem like the sprawling military bases found throughout the Bay Area are just sitting, in reality many of them are making their way through some kind of redevelopment process. But cleaning up after the military takes time. We’ll likely see more built on these sites — probably housing — but it’s going to take a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"A\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey everyone. This is Olivia Allen-Price. And last week on Bay Curious, we heard all about how the Bay Area went from military powerhouse to being left with dozens of vacant facilities. All to answer this question from listener Cameron Tobey…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cameron Tobey: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many abandoned military bases around the Bay Area? And what’s the future plans for these bases?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you didn’t hear the episode, go give it a listen. It gets into the rise and fall of the military presence here. Today, we’re focusing on the future — what’s next for these spaces? Cameron is especially interested in if they can be used for housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cameron Toby: \u003c/strong>You have a lot of abandoned homes in these. Do they plan on redeveloping those homes? Cuz we’re in desperate need of housing here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Today we’ll see how some old military sites are being repurposed, redeveloped, razed and re-envisioned. Sometimes in really creative ways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone speaking on site during a musical performance at Mare Island: \u003c/strong>Here we go, we’re going to walk inside this warehouse where the performance is going to be…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of cello music reverberating in an old military building made of metal\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’re also going to delve into why decades after the armed forces left, many of these spaces are still stuck in the long process of reinventing themselves.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>I don’t think anybody has a playbook for this. I mean, converting these naval bases is so complex…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s all ahead on Bay Curious. Just after the break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here to help us look at what is happening at the decommissioned military sites around the Bay Area is Pauline Bartolone. Welcome, Pauline!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Hey Olivia. Great to be here!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, before we dive in, let’s acknowledge that there are dozens of former military sites around the Bay Area, and they all have their own story in terms of being redeveloped. So we’re going to talk about a few of them specifically, and then also broader trends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Right! Some of these military sites are relatively small, like a swath of World War II barracks, and others are huge Navy bases covering several square miles. Chances are you’ve probably set foot on one without even realizing it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many people know the Presidio, and Fort Mason in San Francisco, which is now a mix of commercial, open space, and homes. There are other popular places like the Bay Area Discovery Museum in Sausalito, which is on a former army site. But then places mostly closed off to the public, like Point Molate in Richmond, which looks like it’s been collecting dust for decades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So some of these sites have been successfully redeveloped?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Yeah. Another would be Treasure Island. It was once Navy stomping grounds and now has a lot of apartments, with more on the way. Way more. But a lot of the spots I learned about were very much in some stage of transition. Especially the former big Navy bases, like Mare Island in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You heard a lot about the Mare Island Naval Shipyard on the last episode. It opened more than 150 years ago, just after the Gold Rush, and was one of the most active Navy yards in the world during World War II. But 30 years ago, the Navy stopped maintaining ships and submarines there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The contamination from the Navy has mostly been cleaned up, but it hasn’t really taken shape as a new viable, residential community. The whole swath of land, which by the way is actually a peninsula … long story … is about 5000 acres.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ambiance from the base fades up\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, there are just a few hundred homes there, a handful of retail businesses and a pretty active industrial sector. Anyone who takes a tour of it — which I did, it’s open to the public — will see it’s an eclectic mix of revitalization, and decay. But it has an intriguing charm. It’s a vast post-industrial landscape with beautifully restored historic buildings, right next to abandoned lots and warehouses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>It’s been this sort of hidden thing for a long, long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kent Fortner is a perfect person to show me around. He’s a resident, and a business owner here. He converted an old Navy coal shed and turned it into the Mare Island Brewing Company. When he’s not brewing beer, he’s researching the area’s history through the local historic association.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>if you have any desire to know naval history from particularly World War I and World War II, this place makes your hair stand on end…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of car door slamming\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>So we’ll drive through the old officers road down here…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The residential neighborhoods are mostly tucked away in a couple of clusters. So you can drive for a block or two and see nothing but pavement on each side, then, a randomly placed palm tree. Actually, the trees here are a sight to see. Apparently the Navy collected saplings from all over the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>Arborists from all over come to look at all of this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>There are more signs of Navy life all over the place. Kent pointed a lot of them out during our drive. Like cannons…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>The cannons you see over here…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And giant metal anchors taller than most of us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>…Hidden in the bushes over here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>An ammunition bunker and a firing range…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>There’s still bullet casings and potentially unexploded bullets in the soil. So that needs to be cleaned up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, an old Navy hospital that specialized in lost limbs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>This is where you came to get your prosthetic fixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>But the most glaring remnants of the Navy are the huge rusty metal cranes on the main historic wharf. There’s a row of them — towering several stories high, with massive empty concrete dry dock for the ships below.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>Those are cranes that can lift incredible amounts of weight and that’s how they would assemble the ships back in the day … it’s mind boggling how large these ships were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>A number of Hollywood producers have been drawn in by the patchwork of landscapes here, using Mare Island as a backdrop for movies and TV shows.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Movie sound effect of robot transforming\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Like \u003cem>Bumblebee\u003c/em>, the transformer movie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Clip from \u003c/em>13 Reasons Why\u003cem>: “Omg … What are you?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And the more quiet teenage thriller, \u003cem>13 Reasons Why\u003c/em> on Netflix.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Clip from \u003c/em>13 Reasons Why\u003cem>: Voice 1 “I’m not going, not now, not ever.” Voice 2: “Why didn’t you say this to me when I was alive?”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>But it’s not all military ruins. There are signs of rebirth too. Touro University bought the Navy hospital and holds classes there. Dozens of manufacturing-type businesses have set up here — high end furniture makers, modular home builders, and alcohol entrepreneurs, like Kent. But in terms of amenities for everyday living, like stores, modern parks and walkable neighborhoods … the former military base is not there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kent Fortner: \u003c/strong>I can’t say that it’s thriving right now. But we’re in this weird seam between when all the cleanup had to get done and when the new stuff is all going to start getting developed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So Pauline … the Mare Island Navy Shipyard closed back in the mid 1990s. Other bases also closed decades ago. Why does it take so long to reinvent them?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Well I talked to regional planners, developers and city officials and heard some common things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Number one is there is just a lot of environmental clean up to do on military sites. In Mare Island’s case, things like mercury, petroleum, underground fuel tanks, PCBs (those are chemicals in electrical equipment that were banned in the ’70s.) And this clean up takes a really long time. Like decades. Mare island’s not fully done with it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another process that takes a long time is public input to come up with a new plan for the site. In one case I heard, that took 7 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And a third factor is, it’s hard to keep private developers in the game. The developers are for-profit, and they assume a lot of risk and front-end costs in these massive projects. They take on basic infrastructure like sewer, water and electricity for these sites. They have to prove to their shareholders that the project will “pencil out” over a long period. One regional planner I talked to says the amount of investment private developers take on in these projects is pretty unique to the U.S. — he says in other countries the private sector wouldn’t be as involved at the infrastructure stage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s interesting. Can you tell me more about this problem keeping private developers engaged?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Yeah, the former Concord Naval Weapons Station is a perfect example of this. Their base closed in 2005, and they’re on their third private developer. The first developer left after labor disputes. The second developer was essentially booted by the city council. Now they have an ambitious plan for 12,000 housing units, a sports complex, even a college campus on the former site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I talked to Guy Bjerke with the City of Concord about their drawn out process, and he says there are many regulatory steps they have to wait out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Guy Bjerke: \u003c/strong>The need to get all of the resource permitting for wetlands and endangered species, and cultural sites right and the burial grounds. and those sorts of things. The need to work with the Navy to both monitor and facilitate how they’re cleaning up the sites so it can be turned into housing. So these are all complicated issues.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Bjerke says it’s probably going to be another 4–6 years before people see anything built above ground on the former Concord base. And again it closed 20 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As for some of the other military sites … what are some of the plans for development there?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Well in general there’s a strong desire to create new housing on these sites, especially on the five major Navy bases like Mare Island, Alameda and Concord. Not only do these sites have a lot of acreage, but they’re also transit friendly, so they can help meet the area’s affordable housing and climate goals by keeping people where they work as opposed to commuting from Tracy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are examples of housing built on military sites. The former Hamilton Air Force Base in Novato, in Marin County, is just one example, and of course, Treasure Island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One note here — We’ve done some reporting on the redevelopment of the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard in San Francisco’s Bayview, another massive project in the works. The base was declared one of the nation’s most contaminated sites in 1989. The city wants to put 10,000 homes on the land … but it’s been mired in a host of cleanup controversies. The Navy has spent decades cleaning there, but the work isn’t done. There are major concerns about contaminants they may have missed, and how sea-level rise could cause deeply buried toxins to resurface. Additional clean up is planned. There’s a lot to that story, more than we can get into right now, but we’ll link to some resources in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pauline, What can we learn from the sites that have been successfully redeveloped?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Well I’m told places like the Presidio and Fort Mason have really benefited from being on national park land. They’ve had one consistent owner with steady revenue — the federal government — which can see through a long term vision for the place. For the other spaces, one proposal I heard for speeding up the development is to essentially divide the projects up so a collection of groups can move things along at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sounds like reinventing these sites is very complicated and involves a lot of different players, but perhaps that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Right … I do want to say that some people like the bases just how they are: raw, industrial, with lots of open space. History buffs for sure, and artists and makers. There’s plenty of space to create. In fact, a group of sound artists have been holding performances regularly at Mare Island for 10 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of a crowd gathering in a big room. A voice says “Hello everybody”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>They call the series Re:Sound … And it’s pretty experimental.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music played with a cello\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The day I went, a cellist named Lori Goldston from Seattle was playing … improvising of course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music played with a cello\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>She performed in an empty metal storage shed right on the historic dock. The giant rusty cranes were all around us. The Navy architecture was part of the show … the metal walls creaked with the breeze. The audience sat on the concrete floor, which was once covered with military supplies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Distant birds with cello music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Many listened with their eyes closed, almost in a trance, taking in the string music and the birds in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Artists like Lori Goldston are among many people here who are working with the island’s rich history just as it is, while finding a new purpose for it at the same time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lori Goldston: \u003c/strong>It’s nice to see all this infrastructure being put to good use. I’ve seen a lot of empty space and wonder why there aren’t more things happening here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>We’ll see more built on these military bases. Probably housing. But it’s going to take a while.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Pauline Bartolone, thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks to listener Cameron Tobey for asking the question that sparked this two-part story. And a special thanks to Matt Regan of the Bay Area Council and Mark Shorett of the Association of Bay Area Governments for their expertise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in SF at member-supported KQED. Find out more about becoming a member, and supported the work of Bay Curious, at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additional Support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and everyone on Team KQED. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003ca href=\"#A\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every October, navy planes rip through San Francisco skies, giant warships barrel through the Bay, and hundreds of uniformed officers fill Marina Green. Then, a week later, they’re all gone. It’s all part of \u003ca href=\"https://fleetweeksf.org/bay-area-military-history/\">Fleet Week, a 40-year-old military tradition in San Francisco.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These days, Fleet Week is likely the only time Bay Area residents see armed forces in uniform. Although the military’s presence in the Bay Area was once huge, the Department of Defense began a national effort to downsize in the late 1980s, leaving many former military sites vacant and in need of cleanup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Cameron Tobey wondered about this history while exploring the former Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems at one point that every branch of the military had a base here, and now they’re all sitting empty,” Tobey said. “So what happened to them, and what’s the future plans for these bases?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Bay Area was once a military powerhouse\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dating back all the way to Spanish colonizers who built the Presidio, San Francisco was a strategic place for military defense. When the United States took over, it grew into one of the biggest military centers in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“San Francisco was the overwhelming center of U.S. settlement, economy and power in the western U.S. in the 19th century,” said Dick Walker, professor emeritus in geography at UC Berkeley and author of several books on California history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the end of World War II, the U.S. military had established dozens of sites, everything from shipyards and air stations to barracks and weapons stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023512\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023512\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sculptures and defunct cranes occupy the waterfront facing the Napa River on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many former military sites have become iconic Bay Area landmarks. Alcatraz was once a \u003ca href=\"https://www.bop.gov/about/history/alcatraz.jsp\">military prison\u003c/a>; Treasure Island housed Navy bunkers and San Francisco’s Fort Mason was a launching point for over a million soldiers heading to the Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the military presence reaches far beyond these well-known places. During World War II, the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard repaired warships. In the Marin headlands, soldiers lived at \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/fort-baker.htm\">Fort Baker\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/focr.htm\"> Fort Cronkhite\u003c/a>, and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/cold-war.htm\">Nike Missile Site\u003c/a> was ready to strike down Russian H-bombs during the Cold War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/visit/bancroft/oral-history-center/projects/oakland-army-base\">Oakland’s Army Base\u003c/a> sent soldiers and supplies overseas. And Camp Parks in Dublin was a home base for the Seabees, the navy’s construction crew. At the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bracpmo.navy.mil/BRAC-Bases/California/Former-Naval-Weapons-Station-Seal-Beach-Detachment-Concord/\">Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/a> crews loaded and shipped massive quantities of explosives. And Alameda’s Naval Air Station was called the Navy’s “aviation gateway to the Pacific.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the South Bay, the \u003ca href=\"https://historicproperties.arc.nasa.gov/h3historysite/six/\">Naval Air Station at Moffett Field\u003c/a> specialized in anti-submarine warfare. And in addition to all the military personnel stationed at these sites, far more Bay Area residents were involved with producing the materials and supplies they needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023509\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023509\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The defunct Naval shipyard seen at dawn on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>World War II transformed the Bay Area \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>World War II was the heyday for the military in the Bay Area. Shipbuilding was a major industry and people migrated here from all over the country to take wartime jobs. The population ballooned and became more diverse. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyculture/africanamericanhistory.htm?_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9wkqUSY91EVWSCV7eso2X2Z3N55ygMphCrdnyKNRxxXrcErKDI6ghZerUSnkX9mpCNK6Fs\">The Black population tripled in just a few years as African Americans from the South\u003c/a> moved to the area to work for the war effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Henry J. Kaiser shipyards fueled the growth of Richmond, which went from a small industrial city to more than 100,000 people, Walker said. “It just grew like a mushroom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Bay Area shipyards were some of the biggest employers of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/tending-the-homefront.htm#:~:text=The%20Bay%20Area's%20numerous%20shipyards,the%20Moore%20shipyard%20in%20Oakland.\">women defense workers\u003c/a> in the U.S. More than a quarter of Richmond’s shipyard workers were women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/organization-and-administration/historic-bases/mare-island.html\">Mare Island\u003c/a> in Vallejo was once one of the largest Navy sites in the world — more than 100,000 people built and repaired ships there in the 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023592\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 740px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023592\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"740\" height=\"520\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419.jpg 740w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419-160x112.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 740px) 100vw, 740px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Six destroyers from the 36th Division docked in Dry Dock No. 2 at Mare Island Navy Yards, circa 1920s. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023630\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023630\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-800x267.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-1020x340.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2048x682.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-1920x640.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: The USS CHicaco being launched on April 10, 1930 at Mare Island. Right: The current Coal Shed parking lot with B85 in the background, was known as ‘Gun Park’ in maps of the time as seen in this post-Civil War photograph. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the decades after World War II, Bay Area bases supported two more Pacific wars — the Korean War and the Vietnam War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I still remember my first day [on Mare Island] because I came from a small town in Michigan,” said Dennis Kelly, who started working at the shipyard in 1974. “You walked down to the waterfront and there were just people going everywhere on bicycles, cars, trucks, cranes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly was a nuclear engineer on the base, helping to refuel nuclear-powered submarines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I liked the complexity of the ships,” he said. “They were probably some of the most complex things ever built by man.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the 1980s, the nature of international conflict was changing. The Cold War with Russia was ending. The federal government wanted to shrink its defense budget and restructure the armed forces. That meant closing many bases nationwide — a thorny political issue. Closing any given base would mean laying off a sizable portion of a community and cutting off stable federal funding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023511\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023511\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Newer homes built in the last two decades along Flagship Drive on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Federal officials created the \u003ca href=\"https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2023/budget_justification/pdfs/05_BRAC/FY2023_BRAC_Overview.pdf\">Base Realignment and Closure Commission\u003c/a> (BRAC), an \u003ca href=\"https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/134487/brac-recommendations-follow-lengthy-process/\">independent body of experts\u003c/a> tasked with determining which bases should close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were several waves of BRAC closure decisions between 1988 and 1995. As a result, \u003ca href=\"https://www.calinst.org/files/defense/base1a.pdf\">30 major California bases closed\u003c/a>, accounting for more than half of the laid-off military personnel nationwide. To many, it seemed \u003ca href=\"https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB7511.html\">California was dealt a heavier hand\u003c/a> than the rest of the states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the mid-1990s, the Bay Area military base presence was \u003ca href=\"https://www.calinst.org/files/defense/base1a.pdf\">nearly wiped out entirely\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1512985227\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Punishment for left-wing politics? \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mare Island, which had been building and fixing warships for 150 years, was one of the Bay Area bases closed in 1996 as part of the BRAC process. Its closure had wide-reaching economic impacts on Vallejo that are still felt today. And more broadly, \u003ca href=\"https://www.calinst.org/files/defense/base1a.pdf\">the base closures meant about 45,000 people in the Bay Area lost their jobs\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Why did the Bay Area get targeted? It’s clearly political,” said Kelly, who said the BRAC process was just for show. “The analyses were cooked up to support the decision and that was the end of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly and others said congresspeople at the time — Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer and Ron Dellums — didn’t fight to keep bases in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023520\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023520\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Admiral’s Mansion on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But people often cite another reason for the closures — that San Francisco was being punished for its left-wing, anti-military politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s, there was a high-profile, ongoing political dispute after San Francisco officials voted not to homeport a massive battleship called the USS Missouri in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a very clear message back to Washington, ‘no, we don’t want your battleship; we don’t need the military,’” said \u003ca href=\"https://www.drelouise.com\">author and historian Elouise Epstein\u003c/a>, who did her doctoral research about the Bay Area base closures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Epstein said it’s too simplistic to pin all the military closures on politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The bases were closed because they were out of date,” she said. “They had fundamental issues. There [were] economic problems, environmental problems and so forth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023519\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023519\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">One of the defunct dry docks on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. Part of ‘Bumblebee’ from the Transformers series was filmed here. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the population of the Bay Area expanded, housing was scarce and expensive for soldiers. And military operations caused tensions with civilians. Alameda residents complained about the noise at the neighboring Naval Air Station. The Oakland airport was expanding and adding flights to serve the growing city. It became harder and harder for military planes coming in and out of the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also in the ’70s and ’80s, state and local governments started requiring the military to follow environmental protection laws, making it more costly and difficult to operate bases in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Navy was by far the biggest polluter in the Bay Area,” Epstein said. “Civic activism really took on the military and pushed them to do the right thing, which then, of course, created more cost and more complexity, which made it harder to run these bases.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also, military technology was evolving, transforming the very nature of war. Maybe at the turn of the 19th century, physical forts — with cannons pointed at the bay — were best practice, but after World War II, the military used radar, satellite and thermonuclear weapons to protect the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023647\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023647\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A line of old factory buildings on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023516\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00099.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023516\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Mare Island Naval Cemetery looks out over the former Naval grounds in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[The military doesn’t] want to maintain old weapons,” Epstein said. “You don’t want to maintain a tank from 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lastly, in the 1980s, the computer age began to take off and Silicon Valley was at the center. With new jobs and industry springing up, the Bay Area wasn’t as reliant on the federal government for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In aggregate, there’s not a huge political or an economic need for the bases anymore,” Epstein said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, not all communities were able to bounce back after the closures. Black residents of Hunters Point protested in 1973 when their shipyard was slated for closure. \u003ca href=\"https://antievictionmap.com/bayview-hunters-point\">Most of the people who lost jobs\u003c/a> there were African American. Vallejo was also hit hard when Mare Island closed. “Vallejo basically grew up around the shipyard,” Dennis Kelly said. “Vallejo ultimately went bankrupt and it still struggles today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almost 30 years later, Mare Island is starting to develop a new identity with new homes and businesses opening. It has taken many decades, but the former military base may one day be a different kind of economic boon to the local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more on the opportunities and challenges of redeveloping former military sites, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023708/surprising-ways-former-bay-area-military-bases-are-transforming-and-why-it-takes-so-long\">read part two of this series\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"A\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to imagine now, but during World War II, the Bay Area was a major center of military activity in the United States … with dozens of military installations all over the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> “The United States becomes at least a two-ocean naval power as this mighty fleet takes its station in the mightiest of oceans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hundreds of thousands of people here worked in the armed forces at the time — building ships, manufacturing supplies, training soldiers, and so much more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But today that robust military presence is largely gone, and what’s left behind is mostly … real estate and wide open space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back when he was in college, Bay Curious listener Cameron Tobey liked to explore one of those spaces — Mare Island, the huge abandoned navy shipyard near Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cameron Tobey:\u003c/strong> My friends and I used to go out there, check out the abandoned buildings … there used to be these warehouses with, like, submarine silhouettes painted on the side. And there was this huge tower with a radar dish on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tobey says all that time on Mare Island got him thinking…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cameron Tobey: Why are there so many abandoned military bases around the Bay Area? It seems at one point that every branch of the military had a base here and now they’re all sitting empty. So what happened to them, and what’s the future plans for these bases?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme song]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious, the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. This week: How did the military go from boom to bust in the Bay Area? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[BREAK]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our listener Cameron Tobey wants to know how so many military bases came to be in the San Francisco Bay Area at one time. And why were they abandoned decades ago? KQED’s Pauline Bartolone found out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever been in San Francisco during one of the first weekends of October, you may have covered your ears at the sound of this…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sound of blue angels flying]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Navy planes, the Blue Angels, flying past so fast in the sky you may want to run the other way. Every year in San Francisco they show up during Fleet Week. That’s the way it’s been for over 40 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of people milling around outdoors]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> On San Francisco’s Marina Green, dozens of uniformed officers have set up tents. The Navy, Coast Guard, Marines… They’re mingling with dog walkers and kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Pauline (outside): It’s a really beautiful day. Kind of feels like a cross between a county fair. And a recruitment event.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[a band plays the Star Spangled Banner]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Lt. Cmdr. Chloe Morgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Morgan:\u003c/strong> So the purpose of Fleet Week is really to let you know. … Americans meet their military, see us come on our ship, see the equipment, meet our people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Meet our people. Fleet Week may literally be the only time people in the Bay Area actually see uniformed officers or hear those jets. But decades ago, it was another story. Dating back all the way to Spanish colonizers who built the Presidio, San Francisco was a strategic place for military defense. Then after the United States took over, it kept growing as a major center for armed forces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> This becomes one of the biggest military centers in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Dick Walker would know. He’s the author of several books about California history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> San Francisco was the center, the overwhelming center of U.S. settlement, economy and power in the western U. S. in the 19th century. So from the gold rush on. So it made sense that very early that the American government put military installations in San Francisco and around the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[military drumming music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> The U.S. built dozens of military sites from the mid-late 1800s through the Second World War. Shipyards, air stations, bunkers, barracks, weapons stations, there are too many to list. But there are a few notables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Alcatraz, a military prison\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> Treasure Island — Navy bunkers…\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> San Francisco’s Fort Mason … where over a million soldiers embarked for the Pacific War.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Hunters Point Naval Shipyard … ship repair during WW2.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> In the Marin headlands: Fort Baker, permanent housing for army soldiers…\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Hamilton Air Force Base … smallish base..interior coast of Marin.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Fort Cronkhite, military housing during the Pacific War…\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> … and Nike Missile Sites, to strike down Russian H-bombs during the Cold War.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1: \u003c/strong>Oakland Army Base … sent soldiers and supplies overseas.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> In Dublin, Camp Parks … Home base for the ‘Seabees’, the navy’s construction crew.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> Concord Naval Weapons station — maneuvered massive quantities of explosives.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Alameda’s Naval Air station, called the Navy’s “Aviation Gateway to the Pacific.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Then in the South Bay, there’s Moffett Field, which was very specialized around anti-submarine warfare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[military music out]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> You get the picture. The Bay Area became a depot not just for warships and marine training, but all the personnel and materials that support them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Logistics. You have to supply those ships. You have to supply the men. You have to supply the ammunition. And that everything from, production of explosives and ammunition and projectiles to food, blankets, clothing, uniforms and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Instrumental music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> By World War II, when the U.S. was at war with Japan, the San Francisco Bay Area was the staging area for soldiers going off to war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Mare Island Centennial film: “No Navy anytime anywhere, has ever been stronger than its supports. The kind of support given by Navy yards…(fades out)”\u003c/em> \u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Shipbuilding for the Navy during the war was a huge economic boon for the Bay Area. The region became a national hotspot for people looking for wartime jobs, like African Americans from the South. The Black population tripled in the Bay Area in just a few years, largely because of that shipbuilding work. Mare Island in Vallejo was one of the largest Navy sites in the world — more than 100,000 people built and repaired ships there in the 1940s. \u003cem>[Mare Island Centennial film: “Mare Island is well situated. Located in the North East of San Francisco Bay … One of the finest Naval anchorages in the world.”]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Shipbuilding was also happening on private yards, like Kaiser in Richmond … This was the Rosie the Riveter era. The Bay Area shipyards were some of the biggest employers of women defense workers in the U.S. More than a quarter of Richmond’s shipyard workers were women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Rosie the Riveter Song: \u003cem>“All the day long, whether rain or shine,\u003c/em> \u003cem>She’s a part of the assembly line.\u003c/em> \u003cem>She’s making history, working for victory\u003c/em> \u003cem>Rosie the Riveter”\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Richmond became quite a went from a pretty small industrial city to a bigger … to like 100,000 people during World War II. It just grew like a mushroom. It changed the racial makeup. A lot of Filipinos in the American Navy. You had a lot of African Americans come in to work, not just in the shipyards, although that was a major source because Henry Kaiser, who ran the shipyards, was a very open-minded capitalist who recognized good, cheap labor when he saw it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Song of the Victory Fleet (1945)]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> By many accounts, World War II was the Heyday for the military in the Bay Area. But in the decades that followed, Bay Area bases supported two more Pacific Wars, the Korean War and Vietnam. In 1974, when Dennis Kelley first started working on Mare Island, he said it was still a bustling place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> I still remember my first day because I came from a small town in Michigan. And you walked down to the waterfront and there were just people going everywhere on bicycles, cars, trucks, cranes. You know there was 10,000 people working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Kelley was a nuclear engineer on the base, helping with the refueling of nuclear-powered submarines. He loved working on that massive base … Shipbuilding cranes as high as city office buildings, and berths as long as a stadium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> I like the complexity of the ships. You know, they were probably some of the most complex things, you know, things ever built by man. I mean, it was fun, you know. And at the end of the day, we were basically fielding these weapons of war at a time, you know, when the Cold War was going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> But by the 1980s, the specter of war waned. The Cold War with Russia was ending. The federal government wanted to shrink its defense budget and restructure the armed forces. That meant closing many bases nationwide … a thorny political issue for politicians. Closing any given base would mean laying off a sizable portion of a community and cutting off stable federal funding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So federal officials created BRAC — the Base Realignment and Closure Commission — an independent body of experts, which met over several rounds in the late ’80s and ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Video of 1995 BRAC hearings: \u003cem>“As most of you know, this commission is heading into its final three weeks of its difficult task of recommending to the president which domestic bases should be closed or realigned…”\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Chairman Alan Dixon held countless hearings about the base closures, to deliberate cuts recommended by the Department of Defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Video of 1995 BRAC hearings:\u003cem> “The commissioners have held 10 hearings here in Washington, 16 hearings across the country, and have made 200 visits…”\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Because of the BRAC decisions between 1988 and 1995, 30 major California bases closed, accounting for more than half of the laid-off military personnel nationwide. By many accounts, California was dealt a heavier hand than the rest of the states. President Bill Clinton visited the Alameda Naval Air Station in 1993 just before it closed as if to soften the blow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Pres. Clinton speech:\u003cem> “Thank you for helping to win the Cold War.\u003c/em>”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> With a massive ship as his backdrop, Clinton spoke to dozens of uniformed navy seamen wearing white hats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Pres. Clinton speech:\u003cem> “You have done the right thing by your country as a result of that it has become possible indeed it has become necessary to downsize the defense establishment of the United States to more importantly reorganize it so it can maintain its dominance in a world …\u003c/em>(fades under)”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> By the mid-1990s, the Bay Area military base presence was nearly wiped out entirely. Many other areas of California lost their military might, too, like L.A. But as the armed forces were forced to downsize and consolidate, San Diego emerged as California’s new navy city on the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music break]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone\u003c/strong>: The Bay Area’s Mare Island, which had been building and fixing warships for 150 years, closed. Dennis Kelley said even though the BRAC process was meant to take politics out of the decision-making, it was basically for show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> Now, why did the Bay Area get targeted? It’s clearly political.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> To this day, the popular story about the Bay Area base closures — what led to a loss of at least 45,000 jobs locally — was that San Francisco was being punished for its left-wing, anti-military politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> I think the decision was made. The analyses were cooked up to support the decision, and that was the end of it. It’s crying over spilt milk now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> There is this narrative that the military have had it in for the quote-unquote, liberal Bay area and punish them. But I found no evidence of that, even though that’s a very great story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone\u003c/strong>: Eloise Epstein did her doctoral research on the Bay Area base closures. She said the reasons for the closures here were actually more practical and complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> Predominantly the bases were closed because they were out of date. They had fundamental issues. There were economic problems, environmental problems and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> The Bay Area was getting bigger. So the military was grappling with more and more urban problems. Even back then, housing was scarce and expensive for soldiers. Alameda residents complained about the noise at the neighboring Naval Air station. Oakland had big urban development plans, and commercial flight traffic was picking up. So it got harder and harder for military planes coming in and out of the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> SFO goes through a massive number of passenger increases during that time, and Oakland airport same thing, and you have San Jose that’s getting popular too at the time. And so you have these air constraints. So you can’t just like fly in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Also, in the ’70s and ’80s, state and local governments started to assert environmental protections on federal lands. Making it more costly and difficult to operate bases in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> Here in the Bay Area, we very much value our clean air and clean water. It’s part of our identity here. And so the Navy was by far the biggest polluter in the Bay Area and for decades. And so that’s where civic activism really took on the military and pushed them to do the right thing, which then, of course, created more cost and more complexity, which made it harder to run these bases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Then, you have changing military technology transforming the very nature of war. Epstein says, maybe at the turn of the 19th century, you needed physical forts, with cannons pointed at the Bay, perhaps to protect the shore from invading ships. But not now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> After World War II, you get the emergence of radar. Shortly thereafter, in the ’50s, you get satellites, and of course, you have the emergence of thermonuclear weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> And Epstein says, military planners want these new cool weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> They don’t want to maintain old weapons … You want the super radar and computers and hacking and all the stuff that we think about today. You don’t want to maintain a tank from 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, the Bay Area just wasn’t as reliant on steady federal revenue and government jobs as it was before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> The Bay Area was booming. It was booming in the ’80s … you have this first generation of Silicon Valley just bringing massive prosperity … And so what you end up with is … There’s not a huge political or an economic need for the bases anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So when the Oakland Army Base closed, Oakland city planners were at the ready to find a new use for it. Treasure Island’s navy bunkers eventually became luxury housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Recording of Hunters Point closure protests]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> But not all communities were able to bounce back after the closures. Black residents of Hunters Point protested in 1973 when their shipyard was slated for closure. Most of the people who lost jobs there were African American. On Mare Island, Dennis Kelley says that closure was particularly challenging because of its massive size.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> Vallejo basically grew up around the shipyard. And so it was a huge hit when the shipyard closed. And as you probably know, Vallejo ultimately went bankrupt. But 10 years after the shipyard closed, and it still struggles today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So if you live here in the Bay Area, chances are good you’ve driven past or walked through a former military site — even if you didn’t realize it. Some have been redeveloped into public parks. Businesses have moved in, or housing has been built. But some areas are still sitting empty … waiting for cleanup, caught in red tape…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On next week’s episode of Bay Curious — what has become of the spaces once occupied by the military in the Bay Area? Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today’s story was reported by Pauline Bartolone. Thanks to UC Davis Geographer Javier Arbona for his insights. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Paul Lancour, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Senad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Treasure Island, Fort Mason, Mare Island, the Presidio — all former military bases. This two-part series looks at the rise and fall of the Bay Area’s military bases and the challenges of redeveloping them.",
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"title": "Why Are There So Many Abandoned Military Bases in the Bay Area? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003ca href=\"#A\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every October, navy planes rip through San Francisco skies, giant warships barrel through the Bay, and hundreds of uniformed officers fill Marina Green. Then, a week later, they’re all gone. It’s all part of \u003ca href=\"https://fleetweeksf.org/bay-area-military-history/\">Fleet Week, a 40-year-old military tradition in San Francisco.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These days, Fleet Week is likely the only time Bay Area residents see armed forces in uniform. Although the military’s presence in the Bay Area was once huge, the Department of Defense began a national effort to downsize in the late 1980s, leaving many former military sites vacant and in need of cleanup.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Cameron Tobey wondered about this history while exploring the former Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It seems at one point that every branch of the military had a base here, and now they’re all sitting empty,” Tobey said. “So what happened to them, and what’s the future plans for these bases?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>The Bay Area was once a military powerhouse\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dating back all the way to Spanish colonizers who built the Presidio, San Francisco was a strategic place for military defense. When the United States took over, it grew into one of the biggest military centers in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“San Francisco was the overwhelming center of U.S. settlement, economy and power in the western U.S. in the 19th century,” said Dick Walker, professor emeritus in geography at UC Berkeley and author of several books on California history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the end of World War II, the U.S. military had established dozens of sites, everything from shipyards and air stations to barracks and weapons stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023512\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023512\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00190-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sculptures and defunct cranes occupy the waterfront facing the Napa River on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Many former military sites have become iconic Bay Area landmarks. Alcatraz was once a \u003ca href=\"https://www.bop.gov/about/history/alcatraz.jsp\">military prison\u003c/a>; Treasure Island housed Navy bunkers and San Francisco’s Fort Mason was a launching point for over a million soldiers heading to the Pacific.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the military presence reaches far beyond these well-known places. During World War II, the Hunters Point Naval Shipyard repaired warships. In the Marin headlands, soldiers lived at \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/fort-baker.htm\">Fort Baker\u003c/a> and\u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/planyourvisit/focr.htm\"> Fort Cronkhite\u003c/a>, and the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/goga/learn/historyculture/cold-war.htm\">Nike Missile Site\u003c/a> was ready to strike down Russian H-bombs during the Cold War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.lib.berkeley.edu/visit/bancroft/oral-history-center/projects/oakland-army-base\">Oakland’s Army Base\u003c/a> sent soldiers and supplies overseas. And Camp Parks in Dublin was a home base for the Seabees, the navy’s construction crew. At the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bracpmo.navy.mil/BRAC-Bases/California/Former-Naval-Weapons-Station-Seal-Beach-Detachment-Concord/\">Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/a> crews loaded and shipped massive quantities of explosives. And Alameda’s Naval Air Station was called the Navy’s “aviation gateway to the Pacific.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the South Bay, the \u003ca href=\"https://historicproperties.arc.nasa.gov/h3historysite/six/\">Naval Air Station at Moffett Field\u003c/a> specialized in anti-submarine warfare. And in addition to all the military personnel stationed at these sites, far more Bay Area residents were involved with producing the materials and supplies they needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023509\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023509\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00028-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The defunct Naval shipyard seen at dawn on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>World War II transformed the Bay Area \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>World War II was the heyday for the military in the Bay Area. Shipbuilding was a major industry and people migrated here from all over the country to take wartime jobs. The population ballooned and became more diverse. \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyculture/africanamericanhistory.htm?_hsenc=p2ANqtz-9wkqUSY91EVWSCV7eso2X2Z3N55ygMphCrdnyKNRxxXrcErKDI6ghZerUSnkX9mpCNK6Fs\">The Black population tripled in just a few years as African Americans from the South\u003c/a> moved to the area to work for the war effort.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Henry J. Kaiser shipyards fueled the growth of Richmond, which went from a small industrial city to more than 100,000 people, Walker said. “It just grew like a mushroom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Bay Area shipyards were some of the biggest employers of \u003ca href=\"https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/tending-the-homefront.htm#:~:text=The%20Bay%20Area's%20numerous%20shipyards,the%20Moore%20shipyard%20in%20Oakland.\">women defense workers\u003c/a> in the U.S. More than a quarter of Richmond’s shipyard workers were women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/organization-and-administration/historic-bases/mare-island.html\">Mare Island\u003c/a> in Vallejo was once one of the largest Navy sites in the world — more than 100,000 people built and repaired ships there in the 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023592\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 740px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023592\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"740\" height=\"520\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419.jpg 740w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/011419-160x112.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 740px) 100vw, 740px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Six destroyers from the 36th Division docked in Dry Dock No. 2 at Mare Island Navy Yards, circa 1920s. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023630\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2500px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023630\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2500\" height=\"833\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image.jpg 2500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-800x267.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-1020x340.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-1536x512.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-2048x682.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/Copy-of-KQED-side-by-side-downpage-image-1920x640.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2500px) 100vw, 2500px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: The USS CHicaco being launched on April 10, 1930 at Mare Island. Right: The current Coal Shed parking lot with B85 in the background, was known as ‘Gun Park’ in maps of the time as seen in this post-Civil War photograph. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Mare Island Historic Park Foundation)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the decades after World War II, Bay Area bases supported two more Pacific wars — the Korean War and the Vietnam War.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I still remember my first day [on Mare Island] because I came from a small town in Michigan,” said Dennis Kelly, who started working at the shipyard in 1974. “You walked down to the waterfront and there were just people going everywhere on bicycles, cars, trucks, cranes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly was a nuclear engineer on the base, helping to refuel nuclear-powered submarines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I liked the complexity of the ships,” he said. “They were probably some of the most complex things ever built by man.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the 1980s, the nature of international conflict was changing. The Cold War with Russia was ending. The federal government wanted to shrink its defense budget and restructure the armed forces. That meant closing many bases nationwide — a thorny political issue. Closing any given base would mean laying off a sizable portion of a community and cutting off stable federal funding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023511\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023511\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00147-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Newer homes built in the last two decades along Flagship Drive on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Federal officials created the \u003ca href=\"https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2023/budget_justification/pdfs/05_BRAC/FY2023_BRAC_Overview.pdf\">Base Realignment and Closure Commission\u003c/a> (BRAC), an \u003ca href=\"https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/134487/brac-recommendations-follow-lengthy-process/\">independent body of experts\u003c/a> tasked with determining which bases should close.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There were several waves of BRAC closure decisions between 1988 and 1995. As a result, \u003ca href=\"https://www.calinst.org/files/defense/base1a.pdf\">30 major California bases closed\u003c/a>, accounting for more than half of the laid-off military personnel nationwide. To many, it seemed \u003ca href=\"https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB7511.html\">California was dealt a heavier hand\u003c/a> than the rest of the states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>By the mid-1990s, the Bay Area military base presence was \u003ca href=\"https://www.calinst.org/files/defense/base1a.pdf\">nearly wiped out entirely\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1512985227\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Punishment for left-wing politics? \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Mare Island, which had been building and fixing warships for 150 years, was one of the Bay Area bases closed in 1996 as part of the BRAC process. Its closure had wide-reaching economic impacts on Vallejo that are still felt today. And more broadly, \u003ca href=\"https://www.calinst.org/files/defense/base1a.pdf\">the base closures meant about 45,000 people in the Bay Area lost their jobs\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Why did the Bay Area get targeted? It’s clearly political,” said Kelly, who said the BRAC process was just for show. “The analyses were cooked up to support the decision and that was the end of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly and others said congresspeople at the time — Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer and Ron Dellums — didn’t fight to keep bases in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023520\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023520\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_01294-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Admiral’s Mansion on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But people often cite another reason for the closures — that San Francisco was being punished for its left-wing, anti-military politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s, there was a high-profile, ongoing political dispute after San Francisco officials voted not to homeport a massive battleship called the USS Missouri in the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a very clear message back to Washington, ‘no, we don’t want your battleship; we don’t need the military,’” said \u003ca href=\"https://www.drelouise.com\">author and historian Elouise Epstein\u003c/a>, who did her doctoral research about the Bay Area base closures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Epstein said it’s too simplistic to pin all the military closures on politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The bases were closed because they were out of date,” she said. “They had fundamental issues. There [were] economic problems, environmental problems and so forth.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023519\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023519\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00817-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">One of the defunct dry docks on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. Part of ‘Bumblebee’ from the Transformers series was filmed here. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the population of the Bay Area expanded, housing was scarce and expensive for soldiers. And military operations caused tensions with civilians. Alameda residents complained about the noise at the neighboring Naval Air Station. The Oakland airport was expanding and adding flights to serve the growing city. It became harder and harder for military planes coming in and out of the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also in the ’70s and ’80s, state and local governments started requiring the military to follow environmental protection laws, making it more costly and difficult to operate bases in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Navy was by far the biggest polluter in the Bay Area,” Epstein said. “Civic activism really took on the military and pushed them to do the right thing, which then, of course, created more cost and more complexity, which made it harder to run these bases.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Also, military technology was evolving, transforming the very nature of war. Maybe at the turn of the 19th century, physical forts — with cannons pointed at the bay — were best practice, but after World War II, the military used radar, satellite and thermonuclear weapons to protect the coastline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023647\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023647\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/3000/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00211-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A line of old factory buildings on Mare Island in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12023516\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island_DMB_00099.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12023516\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250114_Mare-Island2_DMB_00205-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Mare Island Naval Cemetery looks out over the former Naval grounds in the city of Vallejo on Tuesday, Jan. 14, 2025. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“[The military doesn’t] want to maintain old weapons,” Epstein said. “You don’t want to maintain a tank from 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lastly, in the 1980s, the computer age began to take off and Silicon Valley was at the center. With new jobs and industry springing up, the Bay Area wasn’t as reliant on the federal government for jobs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In aggregate, there’s not a huge political or an economic need for the bases anymore,” Epstein said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, not all communities were able to bounce back after the closures. Black residents of Hunters Point protested in 1973 when their shipyard was slated for closure. \u003ca href=\"https://antievictionmap.com/bayview-hunters-point\">Most of the people who lost jobs\u003c/a> there were African American. Vallejo was also hit hard when Mare Island closed. “Vallejo basically grew up around the shipyard,” Dennis Kelly said. “Vallejo ultimately went bankrupt and it still struggles today.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almost 30 years later, Mare Island is starting to develop a new identity with new homes and businesses opening. It has taken many decades, but the former military base may one day be a different kind of economic boon to the local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For more on the opportunities and challenges of redeveloping former military sites, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12023708/surprising-ways-former-bay-area-military-bases-are-transforming-and-why-it-takes-so-long\">read part two of this series\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"A\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s hard to imagine now, but during World War II, the Bay Area was a major center of military activity in the United States … with dozens of military installations all over the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape:\u003c/strong> “The United States becomes at least a two-ocean naval power as this mighty fleet takes its station in the mightiest of oceans.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hundreds of thousands of people here worked in the armed forces at the time — building ships, manufacturing supplies, training soldiers, and so much more.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But today that robust military presence is largely gone, and what’s left behind is mostly … real estate and wide open space.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back when he was in college, Bay Curious listener Cameron Tobey liked to explore one of those spaces — Mare Island, the huge abandoned navy shipyard near Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cameron Tobey:\u003c/strong> My friends and I used to go out there, check out the abandoned buildings … there used to be these warehouses with, like, submarine silhouettes painted on the side. And there was this huge tower with a radar dish on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tobey says all that time on Mare Island got him thinking…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cameron Tobey: Why are there so many abandoned military bases around the Bay Area? It seems at one point that every branch of the military had a base here and now they’re all sitting empty. So what happened to them, and what’s the future plans for these bases?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Theme song]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious, the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. This week: How did the military go from boom to bust in the Bay Area? Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[BREAK]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our listener Cameron Tobey wants to know how so many military bases came to be in the San Francisco Bay Area at one time. And why were they abandoned decades ago? KQED’s Pauline Bartolone found out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> If you’ve ever been in San Francisco during one of the first weekends of October, you may have covered your ears at the sound of this…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sound of blue angels flying]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Navy planes, the Blue Angels, flying past so fast in the sky you may want to run the other way. Every year in San Francisco they show up during Fleet Week. That’s the way it’s been for over 40 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of people milling around outdoors]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> On San Francisco’s Marina Green, dozens of uniformed officers have set up tents. The Navy, Coast Guard, Marines… They’re mingling with dog walkers and kids.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Pauline (outside): It’s a really beautiful day. Kind of feels like a cross between a county fair. And a recruitment event.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[a band plays the Star Spangled Banner]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Lt. Cmdr. Chloe Morgan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chloe Morgan:\u003c/strong> So the purpose of Fleet Week is really to let you know. … Americans meet their military, see us come on our ship, see the equipment, meet our people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Meet our people. Fleet Week may literally be the only time people in the Bay Area actually see uniformed officers or hear those jets. But decades ago, it was another story. Dating back all the way to Spanish colonizers who built the Presidio, San Francisco was a strategic place for military defense. Then after the United States took over, it kept growing as a major center for armed forces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> This becomes one of the biggest military centers in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Dick Walker would know. He’s the author of several books about California history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> San Francisco was the center, the overwhelming center of U.S. settlement, economy and power in the western U. S. in the 19th century. So from the gold rush on. So it made sense that very early that the American government put military installations in San Francisco and around the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[military drumming music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> The U.S. built dozens of military sites from the mid-late 1800s through the Second World War. Shipyards, air stations, bunkers, barracks, weapons stations, there are too many to list. But there are a few notables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Alcatraz, a military prison\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> Treasure Island — Navy bunkers…\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> San Francisco’s Fort Mason … where over a million soldiers embarked for the Pacific War.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Hunters Point Naval Shipyard … ship repair during WW2.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> In the Marin headlands: Fort Baker, permanent housing for army soldiers…\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Hamilton Air Force Base … smallish base..interior coast of Marin.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Fort Cronkhite, military housing during the Pacific War…\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> … and Nike Missile Sites, to strike down Russian H-bombs during the Cold War.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1: \u003c/strong>Oakland Army Base … sent soldiers and supplies overseas.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> In Dublin, Camp Parks … Home base for the ‘Seabees’, the navy’s construction crew.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> Concord Naval Weapons station — maneuvered massive quantities of explosives.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Alameda’s Naval Air station, called the Navy’s “Aviation Gateway to the Pacific.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Then in the South Bay, there’s Moffett Field, which was very specialized around anti-submarine warfare.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[military music out]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> You get the picture. The Bay Area became a depot not just for warships and marine training, but all the personnel and materials that support them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Logistics. You have to supply those ships. You have to supply the men. You have to supply the ammunition. And that everything from, production of explosives and ammunition and projectiles to food, blankets, clothing, uniforms and so on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Instrumental music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> By World War II, when the U.S. was at war with Japan, the San Francisco Bay Area was the staging area for soldiers going off to war.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Mare Island Centennial film: “No Navy anytime anywhere, has ever been stronger than its supports. The kind of support given by Navy yards…(fades out)”\u003c/em> \u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Shipbuilding for the Navy during the war was a huge economic boon for the Bay Area. The region became a national hotspot for people looking for wartime jobs, like African Americans from the South. The Black population tripled in the Bay Area in just a few years, largely because of that shipbuilding work. Mare Island in Vallejo was one of the largest Navy sites in the world — more than 100,000 people built and repaired ships there in the 1940s. \u003cem>[Mare Island Centennial film: “Mare Island is well situated. Located in the North East of San Francisco Bay … One of the finest Naval anchorages in the world.”]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Shipbuilding was also happening on private yards, like Kaiser in Richmond … This was the Rosie the Riveter era. The Bay Area shipyards were some of the biggest employers of women defense workers in the U.S. More than a quarter of Richmond’s shipyard workers were women.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Rosie the Riveter Song: \u003cem>“All the day long, whether rain or shine,\u003c/em> \u003cem>She’s a part of the assembly line.\u003c/em> \u003cem>She’s making history, working for victory\u003c/em> \u003cem>Rosie the Riveter”\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dick Walker:\u003c/strong> Richmond became quite a went from a pretty small industrial city to a bigger … to like 100,000 people during World War II. It just grew like a mushroom. It changed the racial makeup. A lot of Filipinos in the American Navy. You had a lot of African Americans come in to work, not just in the shipyards, although that was a major source because Henry Kaiser, who ran the shipyards, was a very open-minded capitalist who recognized good, cheap labor when he saw it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Song of the Victory Fleet (1945)]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> By many accounts, World War II was the Heyday for the military in the Bay Area. But in the decades that followed, Bay Area bases supported two more Pacific Wars, the Korean War and Vietnam. In 1974, when Dennis Kelley first started working on Mare Island, he said it was still a bustling place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> I still remember my first day because I came from a small town in Michigan. And you walked down to the waterfront and there were just people going everywhere on bicycles, cars, trucks, cranes. You know there was 10,000 people working here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Kelley was a nuclear engineer on the base, helping with the refueling of nuclear-powered submarines. He loved working on that massive base … Shipbuilding cranes as high as city office buildings, and berths as long as a stadium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> I like the complexity of the ships. You know, they were probably some of the most complex things, you know, things ever built by man. I mean, it was fun, you know. And at the end of the day, we were basically fielding these weapons of war at a time, you know, when the Cold War was going on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> But by the 1980s, the specter of war waned. The Cold War with Russia was ending. The federal government wanted to shrink its defense budget and restructure the armed forces. That meant closing many bases nationwide … a thorny political issue for politicians. Closing any given base would mean laying off a sizable portion of a community and cutting off stable federal funding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So federal officials created BRAC — the Base Realignment and Closure Commission — an independent body of experts, which met over several rounds in the late ’80s and ’90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Video of 1995 BRAC hearings: \u003cem>“As most of you know, this commission is heading into its final three weeks of its difficult task of recommending to the president which domestic bases should be closed or realigned…”\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Chairman Alan Dixon held countless hearings about the base closures, to deliberate cuts recommended by the Department of Defense.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Video of 1995 BRAC hearings:\u003cem> “The commissioners have held 10 hearings here in Washington, 16 hearings across the country, and have made 200 visits…”\u003c/em>]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Because of the BRAC decisions between 1988 and 1995, 30 major California bases closed, accounting for more than half of the laid-off military personnel nationwide. By many accounts, California was dealt a heavier hand than the rest of the states. President Bill Clinton visited the Alameda Naval Air Station in 1993 just before it closed as if to soften the blow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Pres. Clinton speech:\u003cem> “Thank you for helping to win the Cold War.\u003c/em>”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> With a massive ship as his backdrop, Clinton spoke to dozens of uniformed navy seamen wearing white hats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[Pres. Clinton speech:\u003cem> “You have done the right thing by your country as a result of that it has become possible indeed it has become necessary to downsize the defense establishment of the United States to more importantly reorganize it so it can maintain its dominance in a world …\u003c/em>(fades under)”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> By the mid-1990s, the Bay Area military base presence was nearly wiped out entirely. Many other areas of California lost their military might, too, like L.A. But as the armed forces were forced to downsize and consolidate, San Diego emerged as California’s new navy city on the coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music break]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone\u003c/strong>: The Bay Area’s Mare Island, which had been building and fixing warships for 150 years, closed. Dennis Kelley said even though the BRAC process was meant to take politics out of the decision-making, it was basically for show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> Now, why did the Bay Area get targeted? It’s clearly political.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> To this day, the popular story about the Bay Area base closures — what led to a loss of at least 45,000 jobs locally — was that San Francisco was being punished for its left-wing, anti-military politics.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> I think the decision was made. The analyses were cooked up to support the decision, and that was the end of it. It’s crying over spilt milk now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> There is this narrative that the military have had it in for the quote-unquote, liberal Bay area and punish them. But I found no evidence of that, even though that’s a very great story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone\u003c/strong>: Eloise Epstein did her doctoral research on the Bay Area base closures. She said the reasons for the closures here were actually more practical and complicated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> Predominantly the bases were closed because they were out of date. They had fundamental issues. There were economic problems, environmental problems and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> The Bay Area was getting bigger. So the military was grappling with more and more urban problems. Even back then, housing was scarce and expensive for soldiers. Alameda residents complained about the noise at the neighboring Naval Air station. Oakland had big urban development plans, and commercial flight traffic was picking up. So it got harder and harder for military planes coming in and out of the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> SFO goes through a massive number of passenger increases during that time, and Oakland airport same thing, and you have San Jose that’s getting popular too at the time. And so you have these air constraints. So you can’t just like fly in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Also, in the ’70s and ’80s, state and local governments started to assert environmental protections on federal lands. Making it more costly and difficult to operate bases in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> Here in the Bay Area, we very much value our clean air and clean water. It’s part of our identity here. And so the Navy was by far the biggest polluter in the Bay Area and for decades. And so that’s where civic activism really took on the military and pushed them to do the right thing, which then, of course, created more cost and more complexity, which made it harder to run these bases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Then, you have changing military technology transforming the very nature of war. Epstein says, maybe at the turn of the 19th century, you needed physical forts, with cannons pointed at the Bay, perhaps to protect the shore from invading ships. But not now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> After World War II, you get the emergence of radar. Shortly thereafter, in the ’50s, you get satellites, and of course, you have the emergence of thermonuclear weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> And Epstein says, military planners want these new cool weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> They don’t want to maintain old weapons … You want the super radar and computers and hacking and all the stuff that we think about today. You don’t want to maintain a tank from 30 or 40 or 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, the Bay Area just wasn’t as reliant on steady federal revenue and government jobs as it was before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Eloise Epstein:\u003c/strong> The Bay Area was booming. It was booming in the ’80s … you have this first generation of Silicon Valley just bringing massive prosperity … And so what you end up with is … There’s not a huge political or an economic need for the bases anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So when the Oakland Army Base closed, Oakland city planners were at the ready to find a new use for it. Treasure Island’s navy bunkers eventually became luxury housing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Recording of Hunters Point closure protests]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> But not all communities were able to bounce back after the closures. Black residents of Hunters Point protested in 1973 when their shipyard was slated for closure. Most of the people who lost jobs there were African American. On Mare Island, Dennis Kelley says that closure was particularly challenging because of its massive size.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Kelley:\u003c/strong> Vallejo basically grew up around the shipyard. And so it was a huge hit when the shipyard closed. And as you probably know, Vallejo ultimately went bankrupt. But 10 years after the shipyard closed, and it still struggles today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So if you live here in the Bay Area, chances are good you’ve driven past or walked through a former military site — even if you didn’t realize it. Some have been redeveloped into public parks. Businesses have moved in, or housing has been built. But some areas are still sitting empty … waiting for cleanup, caught in red tape…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On next week’s episode of Bay Curious — what has become of the spaces once occupied by the military in the Bay Area? Make sure you’re subscribed so you don’t miss it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today’s story was reported by Pauline Bartolone. Thanks to UC Davis Geographer Javier Arbona for his insights. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Paul Lancour, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Senad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Is It Safe to Swim in the Bay? Braving the Cold (and Sometimes Dirty) Water",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swimming in the San Francisco Bay is more than a hobby or a form of exercise for the avid community of swimmers who show up regularly to take a dip. It’s practically a spiritual experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I work a pretty stressful job as a cardiac ICU nurse. Being in the water is the time that my mind is quiet and I’m able to just be in the present moment,” said Kerianne Brownlie, who regularly swims at Albany Beach, among other spots around the region. “It’s just you and the water. You feel every little piece of seaweed touching you. You feel the full chilliness of whatever the temperature is that day. And you get really in tune with your body in a way that I haven’t found in other sports on land.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brownlie swims without a wetsuit — it’s less to fuss with — and doesn’t worry too much about water quality. But that’s not the case for Bay Curious listener Robbe Verhofste. He’s been curious about swimming in the bay since he moved here five years ago, but he’s been hesitant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robbe grew up in Iowa, where agriculture pollution is a big problem in lakes and rivers. It can make water dangerous — even lethal — for swimmers. So, he’s always cautious of water so close to industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[In Iowa], it was really clear when the water was safe and the water was not safe,” he said. He finds the question a lot murkier in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For some reason, I’m always drawn to jumping into the waters that face the Pacific, so Stinson Beach or Pacifica or Ocean Beach,” Robbe said. “I’m quite a bit more timid to jump in around the interior of the bay itself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is Robbe right to be timid? Is it safe to swim in the bay? And if so, are there certain areas or times of year to avoid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cleaner than it was in the ‘60s\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before diving (pun intended) into \u003ci>current \u003c/i>water quality in the bay, let’s take a step back in order to appreciate how far we’ve come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sixty years ago, the answer to Robbe’s question would have unequivocally been: No, it’s not safe to swim in the bay. That’s because, in the 1960s, raw sewage from treatment plants flowed directly into the bay, untreated. In other words, when residents flushed the toilet, it essentially went straight into the bay. Refineries and industrial facilities also pumped their waste directly into San Francisco bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, all that started to change in 1972 with the passage of the Clean Water Act, which required wastewater treatment plants to do a secondary treatment before discharging water into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we should feel proud,” said Eileen White, executive officer with the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Control Board, \u003ca href=\"https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/sanfranciscobay/\">the local agency in charge of regulating\u003c/a> what goes into the bay. “We’ve come a long way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to White, back in the 1960s, the bay met national water quality standards only 20% of the time. Now, she estimates that number is closer to 95%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Toxic algae is the biggest threat\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Raw sewage may no longer be pumping into the bay, but now there’s a new challenge — harmful algae blooms, which are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1983631/last-summers-fish-killing-algae-bloom-is-back-in-the-bay\">cropping up more often\u003c/a> due in part to human-caused climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020588\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020588\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138.jpg\" alt=\"Three people with lanterns stand in a body of dark water.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(from left) Alison LaBonte, of Berkeley, David Meyer of Berkeley, Kerianne Brownlie, and Maja Harren, of Oakland, meet at Albany Beach for an early morning swim in Albany, Calif., Monday, Jan. 6, 2025. The group meets at 6 a.m. to get a swim in before work. The swimmers wear lights on their heads and inside floatations attached to their bodies for increased visibility. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Algae blooms occur when the water is warm and calm and the algae has plenty of nitrogen and phosphorus to eat. Algae is a naturally occurring plant in the bay, and when it blooms, it’s not always a bad thing. However, certain algae blooms produce toxins that are dangerous to animals and humans. Other types of algae blooms are not toxic, but they eat up all the oxygen in the water, which suffocates fish and other wildlife living there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s what happened in Oakland’s Lake Merritt in 2022, when an algae bloom killed tens of thousands of fish and other aquatic critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could see corpses everywhere,” said Kristina Yoshida, environmental scientist with the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Control Board. “That was a sad day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lake Merritt is a tidal estuary, meaning it’s not fully enclosed and is fed by both salt and freshwater. It’s connected to — and is essentially an extension of — the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while the city of Oakland \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/10900605/what-would-it-take-to-make-lake-merritt-swimmable\">does \u003ci>not \u003c/i>recommend humans swim\u003c/a> in Lake Merritt, the lake is home to plenty of aquatic creatures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it took the fish kill for people to realize how much was in here when they saw all the dead sharks and the bat rays and the huge striped bass,” Yoshida said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and her team recently started collecting nutrient samples around Lake Merritt in order to help the city of Oakland establish a nutrient management plan. The plan, still in its infancy, aims to minimize the impacts of future algae blooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re trying to get baseline data to help us inform what sort of management plan we’re going to do for the lake,” Yoshida said. “We’re trying to understand the system better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Algae blooms are becoming more common in the Bay Area for a variety of reasons. Climate change is a major contributor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have longer, warmer summers and less precipitation. And so those situations set up perfect conditions for these algae blooms to occur,” Yoshida said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blooms are largely fed by nutrient runoff from sewage treatment plants. Although treatment plants have improved their water cleanup strategies since the 1960s, they are still the top contributors of nutrients into the bay, \u003ca href=\"https://baykeeper.org/harmful-algae-blooms/\">according to San Francisco Baykeeper\u003c/a>. And in fact, the San Francisco bay has some of the highest levels of nutrient pollutants of any estuary in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nutrients on their own aren’t a bad thing, but they can increase the frequency and severity of algae blooms – like wind fueling a wildfire. That’s why the local water quality control board is working to cut down on that pollution by setting limits on wastewater discharge. And treatment agencies themselves are also piloting projects to reduce nutrient output.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We understand that nutrient discharges from wastewater treatment plants need to be reduced,” said Alicia Chakrabarti, manager of the Waste Water Environmental Services Division at the East Bay Municipal Utility District (EMBUD). “Because whatever factors are causing increased algal blooms and less resilience to the nutrients is clearly changing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>So… is it safe to swim in the bay?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The short answer to Robbe’s question is: Yes — with some caveats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020582\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020582\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422.jpg\" alt=\"A swimmer in an orange cap cuts through a large open body of water.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kerianne Brownlie swims in the bay near Albany Beach in Albany, Calif., Friday, Dec. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>White does \u003ci>not \u003c/i>recommend swimming after the first big rainstorm of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The first storm of the year usually brings a lot of pollutants into the bay because it’s washing down all that stuff that’s been there, accumulating all summer and all fall,” White said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rain washes trash, bird and dog poop and oil from the roads into the bay, increasing the risk of infections and skin rashes for swimmers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And those big rainstorms are becoming more frequent and intense in the Bay Area. Multiple atmospheric rivers — which can transport \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1935067/rivers-in-the-sky-what-you-need-to-know-about-atmospheric-river-storms\">more than 25 times the moisture\u003c/a> that flows through the mouth of the Mississippi River — have hit our region over the past several years, bringing with them \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12016676/intense-california-storm-caused-2-6-million-damage-sonoma-county\">intense flooding and storm damage\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Storms not only increase stormwater runoff, they can also overwhelm our wastewater treatment facilities. They don’t have the storage to handle all the incoming water and, as a result, bacteria can end up in parts of the bay, according to White.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is the only coastal city in California with a \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpuc.gov/about-us/our-systems/sewer-system/our-combined-sewer\">combined stormwater and wastewater system\u003c/a>. That means there’s only one set of pipes for both sewage and storm runoff, making it particularly vulnerable to big storms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each year, San Francisco discharges nearly 2 billion gallons of combined stormwater and raw sewage into the bay. That poses a big public health risk for those who recreate in the bay — especially swimmers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Environmental Protection Agency is currently suing San Francisco for what it says are repeated violations of the Clean Water Act. San Francisco, in turn, is suing the EPA, saying the agency’s restrictions on how much sewage it can discharge are too vague.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That lawsuit \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12009496/san-francisco-challenges-epa-in-supreme-court-over-water-pollution-standards\">made it all the way to the Supreme Court\u003c/a> this year. The justices heard arguments in October and are expected to present a decision by the time the term ends in June 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, wastewater agencies are required to conduct tests after they accidentally leak sewage. They’re also required to put up signs in affected areas, which can be anywhere around the bay, including right offshore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>White’s advice? Look for signs on the beach and check local news and \u003ca href=\"https://webapps.sfpuc.org/sapps/beachesandbay.html\">city websites\u003c/a> before you dive in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s exactly what question asker Robbe Verhofste did when he decided to take a plunge into the bay after hearing this report. When he saw that water conditions were considered safe near Albany Beach, he stripped down to his bathing suit and braved the cold water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020816\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020816\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A man gives the thumbs up sign standing on a beach next to a large body of water.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1040\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-800x433.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-1020x553.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-1536x832.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Robbe Verhofste takes the plunge into the bay after learning the water is often safe for swimming. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My whole body’s kind of tingling,” he said. “It’s definitely a little chilly, but, yeah, I’d recommend others who are curious to give it a shot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized.jpg\" alt=\"The silhouette of man standing out in a large body of water, looking at the sunset behind a cityscape.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1040\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-800x433.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-1020x553.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-1536x832.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Robbe Verhofste takes in the sunset after a swim in San Francisco Bay. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In fact, as he trains for an upcoming triathlon, he’s thinking the bay will be the perfect place to get some open-water swimming experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It’s a brisk winter day on Albany Beach in the East Bay. Kerianne Brownlie and I are sitting on a piece of driftwood, overlooking a calm and flat San Francisco Bay. I’m wearing my big winter puffy jacket. Kerianne? She’s in a swimsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>In 2020, I had made the decision to get back into swimming. I wanted to join a pool team, and with everything closed, I just decided, well, we have a bay right here. That water seems to be open. And so I actually went down to the Berkeley Marina one day on my own and just hopped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003ci>Stepping into water sounds\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>I remember just getting in and thinking like, okay, this is cold, but it feels okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She picked a landmark about 500 yards away, put her head down and started swimming toward it. By the time she returned to where she started, she knew she’d discovered something special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>And then I felt totally hooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bring up swimming ambi \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>So I work a pretty stressful job as a cardiac ICU nurse. And so really being in the water is the time that my mind is quiet and all of those thoughts shut off and I’m able to just be in the present moment. You feel every little piece of seaweed touching you. You know, you feel the full chilliness of of whatever the temperature is that day. And you get really in tune with your body in a way that I haven’t found in other sports on land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Swimming in the Bay is more than a hobby or a form of exercise. It’s practically a spiritual experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kerianne started out swimming 20, 30 minutes, but was soon drawn to longer swims. Right now, she’s training to swim the English Channel — some 21 miles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that brings us to our question asker this week, Robbe Verhofste. He’s taken notice of swimmers in the Bay like Kerianne. He’s been curious about giving it a try himself since he moved here 5 years ago. But, he’s been hesitant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>For some reason, I’m always drawn to jumping into the waters that face the Pacific. So Stinson Beach or Pacifica or Ocean Beach, and I’m quite a bit more timid to jump in around the interior of the bay itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Timid because he’s not sure whether it’s safe! No, he’s not afraid of sharks or the cold water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robbe grew up in Iowa, where \u003ci>agriculture \u003c/i>pollution is a big problem. It can make water dangerous — even lethal — to swim in. So he’s used to thinking twice before jumping into a body of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>There it was really clear when the water was safe and the water was not safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So he’s wondering: what about the bay? Is it safe to swim in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>If I knew that I was going to come out without issue I would absolutely love to spend more time in this body of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and on today’s episode of Bay Curious: Is it safe to swim in the Bay? Are there certain areas, or times of year, to avoid? Can we convince Robbe to take the plunge? Or will what we find scare him away? That’s all coming up, after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>To find out more about water quality in the bay and to advise Robbe on whether or not to take the plunge we sent out reporter Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin:\u003c/b> Before we get into the \u003ci>current \u003c/i>water quality in the bay, I think we need to back up to appreciate how far we’ve come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because 60 years ago the answer to Robbe’s question would unequivocally have been “No.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>Back in the 60s, raw sewage from the various treatment plants in the Bay area were going untreated into San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Eileen White is the executive officer for the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Control Board. That’s the local agency in charge of tracking and regulating what goes into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And yes, she’s saying that, 60 years ago, when you flushed the toilet, it essentially went straight into the bay. Refineries and industrial facilities also pumped their waste directly into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we’ve come a long way since then, in large part because of the passage of the Clean Water Act in 1972.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>That required the wastewater treatment plants to do secondary treatment and monitoring, and really cleaned up San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Now, Eileen estimates that 95 percent of the time, the bay meets national water quality standards. Sixty years ago that number was closer to 20 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we’ve come a long way!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, if you’ve been paying attention lately, you know that the bay still has some big problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 1:\u003c/b> This is the scene folks up and down the San Francisco Bay have been witnessing for the past two weeks as a harmful algae bloom has taken off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 2:\u003c/b> Enviro groups say the toxic algae bloom is acting like a deadly wildfire underwater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 3:\u003c/b> The algae has been found along the shoreline along the shoreline from Emeryville to Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 4: \u003c/b>Algae blooms closing down lakes not in late AUgust or September, but in the beginning of July. That’s unusual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Algae blooms occur when conditions are right: the water’s warm and calm, and the algae has nutrients — like sewage or other runoff — to feed on. Algae is a naturally occurring plant in the bay, and when it blooms, it’s not always a bad thing. But certain algae blooms produce toxins that make them dangerous for animals and humans. Other algae blooms are not toxic, but they eat up all the oxygen in the water, which suffocates fish and other wildlife living there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s what happened two years ago at Lake Merritt in Oakland, when tens of thousands of dead fish and other aquatic critters started washing up on shore. Tests later confirmed, it was an algae bloom, and it killed almost \u003ci>everything \u003c/i>living in Lake Merritt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Environmental scientist Kristina Yoshida remembers it well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>Honestly, I think it took the fish kills for people to realize how much was in here when they saw all the dead sharks and the bat rays. And there’s the huge striped bass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Lake Merritt is a tidal estuary, meaning it’s not fully enclosed, and is fed by both salt and freshwater. It’s basically an extension of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I meet Kristina at a boat launch on Lake Merritt. And soon after we get there, we spot what Kristina thinks are tunicates, chunky, worm-like creatures suctioned onto the concrete launch pad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>It’s sure exciting to see how much the wildlife has come back after the fish kill in 2022, when most of everything died in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Recently, Kristina and her team started collecting nutrient samples at various locations around the lake to help put together a nutrient management plan, to try to avoid — or at least minimize the impacts — of future algae blooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of a speed boat\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>We launch a small speed boat and start slowly cruising around the lake, going from site to site to collect samples and take down some measurements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>Here’s your bottles. And I’m going to grab coordinates so we know where we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>She pulls a device hooked to a buoy out of the water, which tracks things like temperature, dissolved oxygen and pH.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>Temperature right now is 21.6.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>That’s celsius. And it’s cooler than Kristina was expecting. Because we went out in October, just days after an intense heat wave, which warms up the water and can ripen it for an algae bloom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>I was worried with the heat wave that we were going to get another red tide or algae bloom. Yesterday I got three calls for harmful algal blooms in our region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Luckily, this year, Lake Merritt — and most of the bay — was spared. But algae blooms pop up every year, all over the Bay Area, and they’re getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s another consequence of, you guessed it, climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>We have longer, warmer summers, less precipitation. And so those situations set up perfect conditions for these algae blooms to occur.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Kristina says Lake Merritt is primed for another big algae bloom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s why the sampling is so important because it’s going to help the city take on a plan to make it more resilient to these blooms. The plan is still in its infancy, but the idea is to try to come up with ways to save as many creatures as possible when the next inevitable algae bloom hits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Quick little disclaimer here, the city of Oakland does not recommend swimming in Lake Merritt. Its relatively small surface area and urban surroundings make it more polluted than other parts of the bay and accidentally ingesting the lake water could be dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Let’s get back now to Robbe’s question: Is it safe to swim in the bay? I asked Eileen White, with the water quality control board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>I would say yes, the bay is definitely swimmable…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>You may sense the caveats coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eileen says she would not recommend swimming in the bay after the first big rainstorm of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>The first storm of the year usually brings a lot of pollutants into the bay because it’s washing down all that stuff that’s been there, accumulating all summer and all fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Things like:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>It can be litter. It can be bird poop. It can be dog poop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>After any big rain storm, really, Eileen says swimming is riskier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in the Bay Area, those big rain storms are becoming more common and more intense with climate change. So-called atmospheric rivers, which park themselves in the sky and can dump feet of rain within a few days, cause even more stormwater to runoff into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, Eileen says, that can complicate things for our wastewater treatment agencies. Especially in San Francisco, which has a \u003ci>combined \u003c/i>stormwater and wastewater system. That means they have one set of pipes underground through which all water flows out of your toilet, and your storm drain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That system can get easily overwhelmed, Eileen says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>When they get these really big storms, they can’t store enough, you know, that the runoff is coming. And so not all the stormwater can get treated and the wastewater, full treatment at their plants. And so that can result in some bacteria in the bay in certain parts of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>That happens about 10 times per year on average. In total, San Francisco discharges nearly 2 billion gallons of combined stormwater and raw sewage each year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that poses a big public health risk for those who recreate in the bay… especially swimmers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Environmental Protection Agency along with local environmental groups are currently suing San Francisco for what they say are repeated violations of the Clean Water Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco, in turn, is suing the EPA, saying the agency’s restrictions on how much sewage it can discharge are too vague.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That lawsuit made it all the way to the Supreme Court last year. The justices heard arguments in October, and are expected to present a decision by the time the current term ends in June 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>In the meantime, Eileen says wastewater agencies are required to conduct tests after they accidentally leak sewage and also put up signs in affected areas, which can be anywhere around the bay, including right offshore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t always deter everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>Some swimmers will still decide, you know, they’re the diehard swimmers in the bay. And they may risk getting some skin rash or an infection if they swim in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>It might not kill you, but swimming in contaminated water could lead to a fever, vomiting and diarrhea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My advice? Check local news, city and wastewater agency websites… and look for signs on the beach before you dive in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s no real satisfying yes-or-no answer to Robbe’s question. It’s more like yes, \u003ci>sometimes \u003c/i>and no \u003ci>sometimes. \u003c/i>It’s yes in \u003ci>some \u003c/i>places and no in others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is that enough to convince Robbe to take the plunge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves breaking softly\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Maybe you could just start off kind of telling me, like, where we are right now and. And what we’re here to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>Yeah, we’re on Albany Beach, near sunset, and I’m about to probably jump into the water here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>After listening to this episode, Robbe very bravely agreed to meet up with me for his first-ever swim in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But first, we had to check if the conditions were safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>I haven’t seen any signs posted, but I was curious to check out if there are any swim advisories. I just looked up water quality East Bay, and there’s this great website with all of these different parks around the advisories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Robbe pulls out his phone and pulls up the East Bay parks website, which has a map of different sampling points around the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>Let’s see, swim beach conditions. It opens as a PDF… All right! Low risk. It’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>And with that, Robbe takes off his shoes, strips down to his bathing suit and starts walking down toward the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He stands on the edge of where the waves are breaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>It’s cleaner than I thought at the edge. From a distance it looks a lot more muddy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>He wades out, until the water is up to his stomach, almost beyond the reach of my microphone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He seems ready to plunge, so I give him a countdown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: Three, two, one. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of splashing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>How’s it feel?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>It’s a bit colder. But I kind of want some more!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Yeah!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Robbe swims freestyle a few lengths, seems to be enjoying himself. But the cold eventually gets the best of him, and he sloshes back out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Man, How does that feel?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>Exhilarating. Yeah, it’s my whole body’s kind of tingling. It’s definitely a little chilly, but, yeah, I’d recommend others who are curious to give it a shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin:\u003c/b> Robbe told me he recently signed up for a triathlon. And now that he knows it’s safe to swim in — most of the time — the bay may have just become his new training ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After a little hiatus in December, we are back with a new voting round this January. Head online to BayCurious.org to cast your vote — no signing up or annoying hoops to jump through. Here are your options:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over 1:\u003c/b> Who is “Stevens” and why is Stevens Creek in San Jose and Cupertino named after him or her?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over 2:\u003c/b> Why does San Jose have such a high concentration of Vietnamese people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over 3:\u003c/b> I see peacocks sometimes in the East Foothills of San Jose. They certainly are not native to California. How did they get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Katrina Schwartz rejoins us this week after her maternity leave, and we’ve got a new Bay Curious team member — baby Esme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of baby babbling\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We hope you’ve had a great start to 2025. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks for listening!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"title": "Is It Safe to Swim in the Bay? Braving the Cold (and Sometimes Dirty) Water | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript. Swimming in the San Francisco Bay is more than a hobby or a form of exercise for the avid community of swimmers who show up regularly to take a dip. It’s practically a spiritual experience. "I work a pretty stressful job as a cardiac ICU nurse. Being in the water is the time that my mind is quiet and I'm able to just be in the present moment,” said Kerianne Brownlie, who regularly swims at Albany Beach, among other spots around the region. “It's just you and the water. You feel every little piece of",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Swimming in the San Francisco Bay is more than a hobby or a form of exercise for the avid community of swimmers who show up regularly to take a dip. It’s practically a spiritual experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I work a pretty stressful job as a cardiac ICU nurse. Being in the water is the time that my mind is quiet and I’m able to just be in the present moment,” said Kerianne Brownlie, who regularly swims at Albany Beach, among other spots around the region. “It’s just you and the water. You feel every little piece of seaweed touching you. You feel the full chilliness of whatever the temperature is that day. And you get really in tune with your body in a way that I haven’t found in other sports on land.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Brownlie swims without a wetsuit — it’s less to fuss with — and doesn’t worry too much about water quality. But that’s not the case for Bay Curious listener Robbe Verhofste. He’s been curious about swimming in the bay since he moved here five years ago, but he’s been hesitant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robbe grew up in Iowa, where agriculture pollution is a big problem in lakes and rivers. It can make water dangerous — even lethal — for swimmers. So, he’s always cautious of water so close to industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[In Iowa], it was really clear when the water was safe and the water was not safe,” he said. He finds the question a lot murkier in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For some reason, I’m always drawn to jumping into the waters that face the Pacific, so Stinson Beach or Pacifica or Ocean Beach,” Robbe said. “I’m quite a bit more timid to jump in around the interior of the bay itself.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is Robbe right to be timid? Is it safe to swim in the bay? And if so, are there certain areas or times of year to avoid?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Cleaner than it was in the ‘60s\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before diving (pun intended) into \u003ci>current \u003c/i>water quality in the bay, let’s take a step back in order to appreciate how far we’ve come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sixty years ago, the answer to Robbe’s question would have unequivocally been: No, it’s not safe to swim in the bay. That’s because, in the 1960s, raw sewage from treatment plants flowed directly into the bay, untreated. In other words, when residents flushed the toilet, it essentially went straight into the bay. Refineries and industrial facilities also pumped their waste directly into San Francisco bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>However, all that started to change in 1972 with the passage of the Clean Water Act, which required wastewater treatment plants to do a secondary treatment before discharging water into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think we should feel proud,” said Eileen White, executive officer with the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Control Board, \u003ca href=\"https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/sanfranciscobay/\">the local agency in charge of regulating\u003c/a> what goes into the bay. “We’ve come a long way.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to White, back in the 1960s, the bay met national water quality standards only 20% of the time. Now, she estimates that number is closer to 95%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Toxic algae is the biggest threat\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Raw sewage may no longer be pumping into the bay, but now there’s a new challenge — harmful algae blooms, which are \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1983631/last-summers-fish-killing-algae-bloom-is-back-in-the-bay\">cropping up more often\u003c/a> due in part to human-caused climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020588\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020588\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138.jpg\" alt=\"Three people with lanterns stand in a body of dark water.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20250106_BaySwim_DMB_00138-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(from left) Alison LaBonte, of Berkeley, David Meyer of Berkeley, Kerianne Brownlie, and Maja Harren, of Oakland, meet at Albany Beach for an early morning swim in Albany, Calif., Monday, Jan. 6, 2025. The group meets at 6 a.m. to get a swim in before work. The swimmers wear lights on their heads and inside floatations attached to their bodies for increased visibility. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Algae blooms occur when the water is warm and calm and the algae has plenty of nitrogen and phosphorus to eat. Algae is a naturally occurring plant in the bay, and when it blooms, it’s not always a bad thing. However, certain algae blooms produce toxins that are dangerous to animals and humans. Other types of algae blooms are not toxic, but they eat up all the oxygen in the water, which suffocates fish and other wildlife living there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s what happened in Oakland’s Lake Merritt in 2022, when an algae bloom killed tens of thousands of fish and other aquatic critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You could see corpses everywhere,” said Kristina Yoshida, environmental scientist with the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Control Board. “That was a sad day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lake Merritt is a tidal estuary, meaning it’s not fully enclosed and is fed by both salt and freshwater. It’s connected to — and is essentially an extension of — the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And while the city of Oakland \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/10900605/what-would-it-take-to-make-lake-merritt-swimmable\">does \u003ci>not \u003c/i>recommend humans swim\u003c/a> in Lake Merritt, the lake is home to plenty of aquatic creatures.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it took the fish kill for people to realize how much was in here when they saw all the dead sharks and the bat rays and the huge striped bass,” Yoshida said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and her team recently started collecting nutrient samples around Lake Merritt in order to help the city of Oakland establish a nutrient management plan. The plan, still in its infancy, aims to minimize the impacts of future algae blooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re trying to get baseline data to help us inform what sort of management plan we’re going to do for the lake,” Yoshida said. “We’re trying to understand the system better.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Algae blooms are becoming more common in the Bay Area for a variety of reasons. Climate change is a major contributor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have longer, warmer summers and less precipitation. And so those situations set up perfect conditions for these algae blooms to occur,” Yoshida said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Blooms are largely fed by nutrient runoff from sewage treatment plants. Although treatment plants have improved their water cleanup strategies since the 1960s, they are still the top contributors of nutrients into the bay, \u003ca href=\"https://baykeeper.org/harmful-algae-blooms/\">according to San Francisco Baykeeper\u003c/a>. And in fact, the San Francisco bay has some of the highest levels of nutrient pollutants of any estuary in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nutrients on their own aren’t a bad thing, but they can increase the frequency and severity of algae blooms – like wind fueling a wildfire. That’s why the local water quality control board is working to cut down on that pollution by setting limits on wastewater discharge. And treatment agencies themselves are also piloting projects to reduce nutrient output.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We understand that nutrient discharges from wastewater treatment plants need to be reduced,” said Alicia Chakrabarti, manager of the Waste Water Environmental Services Division at the East Bay Municipal Utility District (EMBUD). “Because whatever factors are causing increased algal blooms and less resilience to the nutrients is clearly changing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>So… is it safe to swim in the bay?\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The short answer to Robbe’s question is: Yes — with some caveats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020582\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020582\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422.jpg\" alt=\"A swimmer in an orange cap cuts through a large open body of water.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/20241220_BaySwim_DMB_00422-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kerianne Brownlie swims in the bay near Albany Beach in Albany, Calif., Friday, Dec. 20, 2024. \u003ccite>(David M. Barreda/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>White does \u003ci>not \u003c/i>recommend swimming after the first big rainstorm of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The first storm of the year usually brings a lot of pollutants into the bay because it’s washing down all that stuff that’s been there, accumulating all summer and all fall,” White said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rain washes trash, bird and dog poop and oil from the roads into the bay, increasing the risk of infections and skin rashes for swimmers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And those big rainstorms are becoming more frequent and intense in the Bay Area. Multiple atmospheric rivers — which can transport \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1935067/rivers-in-the-sky-what-you-need-to-know-about-atmospheric-river-storms\">more than 25 times the moisture\u003c/a> that flows through the mouth of the Mississippi River — have hit our region over the past several years, bringing with them \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12016676/intense-california-storm-caused-2-6-million-damage-sonoma-county\">intense flooding and storm damage\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Storms not only increase stormwater runoff, they can also overwhelm our wastewater treatment facilities. They don’t have the storage to handle all the incoming water and, as a result, bacteria can end up in parts of the bay, according to White.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco is the only coastal city in California with a \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpuc.gov/about-us/our-systems/sewer-system/our-combined-sewer\">combined stormwater and wastewater system\u003c/a>. That means there’s only one set of pipes for both sewage and storm runoff, making it particularly vulnerable to big storms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each year, San Francisco discharges nearly 2 billion gallons of combined stormwater and raw sewage into the bay. That poses a big public health risk for those who recreate in the bay — especially swimmers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Environmental Protection Agency is currently suing San Francisco for what it says are repeated violations of the Clean Water Act. San Francisco, in turn, is suing the EPA, saying the agency’s restrictions on how much sewage it can discharge are too vague.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That lawsuit \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12009496/san-francisco-challenges-epa-in-supreme-court-over-water-pollution-standards\">made it all the way to the Supreme Court\u003c/a> this year. The justices heard arguments in October and are expected to present a decision by the time the term ends in June 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, wastewater agencies are required to conduct tests after they accidentally leak sewage. They’re also required to put up signs in affected areas, which can be anywhere around the bay, including right offshore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>White’s advice? Look for signs on the beach and check local news and \u003ca href=\"https://webapps.sfpuc.org/sapps/beachesandbay.html\">city websites\u003c/a> before you dive in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s exactly what question asker Robbe Verhofste did when he decided to take a plunge into the bay after hearing this report. When he saw that water conditions were considered safe near Albany Beach, he stripped down to his bathing suit and braved the cold water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020816\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020816\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized.jpg\" alt=\"A man gives the thumbs up sign standing on a beach next to a large body of water.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1040\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-800x433.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-1020x553.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sized-1536x832.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Robbe Verhofste takes the plunge into the bay after learning the water is often safe for swimming. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My whole body’s kind of tingling,” he said. “It’s definitely a little chilly, but, yeah, I’d recommend others who are curious to give it a shot.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12020818\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12020818\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized.jpg\" alt=\"The silhouette of man standing out in a large body of water, looking at the sunset behind a cityscape.\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1040\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-800x433.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-1020x553.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-160x87.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/01/Robbe-sunset-sized-1536x832.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Robbe Verhofste takes in the sunset after a swim in San Francisco Bay. \u003ccite>(Dana Cronin/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In fact, as he trains for an upcoming triathlon, he’s thinking the bay will be the perfect place to get some open-water swimming experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> It’s a brisk winter day on Albany Beach in the East Bay. Kerianne Brownlie and I are sitting on a piece of driftwood, overlooking a calm and flat San Francisco Bay. I’m wearing my big winter puffy jacket. Kerianne? She’s in a swimsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>In 2020, I had made the decision to get back into swimming. I wanted to join a pool team, and with everything closed, I just decided, well, we have a bay right here. That water seems to be open. And so I actually went down to the Berkeley Marina one day on my own and just hopped in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003ci>Stepping into water sounds\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>I remember just getting in and thinking like, okay, this is cold, but it feels okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>She picked a landmark about 500 yards away, put her head down and started swimming toward it. By the time she returned to where she started, she knew she’d discovered something special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>And then I felt totally hooked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bring up swimming ambi \u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kerianne Brownlie: \u003c/b>So I work a pretty stressful job as a cardiac ICU nurse. And so really being in the water is the time that my mind is quiet and all of those thoughts shut off and I’m able to just be in the present moment. You feel every little piece of seaweed touching you. You know, you feel the full chilliness of of whatever the temperature is that day. And you get really in tune with your body in a way that I haven’t found in other sports on land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Swimming in the Bay is more than a hobby or a form of exercise. It’s practically a spiritual experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kerianne started out swimming 20, 30 minutes, but was soon drawn to longer swims. Right now, she’s training to swim the English Channel — some 21 miles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>All that brings us to our question asker this week, Robbe Verhofste. He’s taken notice of swimmers in the Bay like Kerianne. He’s been curious about giving it a try himself since he moved here 5 years ago. But, he’s been hesitant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>For some reason, I’m always drawn to jumping into the waters that face the Pacific. So Stinson Beach or Pacifica or Ocean Beach, and I’m quite a bit more timid to jump in around the interior of the bay itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>Timid because he’s not sure whether it’s safe! No, he’s not afraid of sharks or the cold water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Robbe grew up in Iowa, where \u003ci>agriculture \u003c/i>pollution is a big problem. It can make water dangerous — even lethal — to swim in. So he’s used to thinking twice before jumping into a body of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>There it was really clear when the water was safe and the water was not safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>So he’s wondering: what about the bay? Is it safe to swim in?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>If I knew that I was going to come out without issue I would absolutely love to spend more time in this body of water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Bay Curious theme music begins\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and on today’s episode of Bay Curious: Is it safe to swim in the Bay? Are there certain areas, or times of year, to avoid? Can we convince Robbe to take the plunge? Or will what we find scare him away? That’s all coming up, after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>To find out more about water quality in the bay and to advise Robbe on whether or not to take the plunge we sent out reporter Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin:\u003c/b> Before we get into the \u003ci>current \u003c/i>water quality in the bay, I think we need to back up to appreciate how far we’ve come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because 60 years ago the answer to Robbe’s question would unequivocally have been “No.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>Back in the 60s, raw sewage from the various treatment plants in the Bay area were going untreated into San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Eileen White is the executive officer for the San Francisco Bay Regional Water Quality Control Board. That’s the local agency in charge of tracking and regulating what goes into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And yes, she’s saying that, 60 years ago, when you flushed the toilet, it essentially went straight into the bay. Refineries and industrial facilities also pumped their waste directly into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But we’ve come a long way since then, in large part because of the passage of the Clean Water Act in 1972.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>That required the wastewater treatment plants to do secondary treatment and monitoring, and really cleaned up San Francisco Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Now, Eileen estimates that 95 percent of the time, the bay meets national water quality standards. Sixty years ago that number was closer to 20 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So we’ve come a long way!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, if you’ve been paying attention lately, you know that the bay still has some big problems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 1:\u003c/b> This is the scene folks up and down the San Francisco Bay have been witnessing for the past two weeks as a harmful algae bloom has taken off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 2:\u003c/b> Enviro groups say the toxic algae bloom is acting like a deadly wildfire underwater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 3:\u003c/b> The algae has been found along the shoreline along the shoreline from Emeryville to Albany.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Clip 4: \u003c/b>Algae blooms closing down lakes not in late AUgust or September, but in the beginning of July. That’s unusual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Algae blooms occur when conditions are right: the water’s warm and calm, and the algae has nutrients — like sewage or other runoff — to feed on. Algae is a naturally occurring plant in the bay, and when it blooms, it’s not always a bad thing. But certain algae blooms produce toxins that make them dangerous for animals and humans. Other algae blooms are not toxic, but they eat up all the oxygen in the water, which suffocates fish and other wildlife living there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s what happened two years ago at Lake Merritt in Oakland, when tens of thousands of dead fish and other aquatic critters started washing up on shore. Tests later confirmed, it was an algae bloom, and it killed almost \u003ci>everything \u003c/i>living in Lake Merritt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Environmental scientist Kristina Yoshida remembers it well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>Honestly, I think it took the fish kills for people to realize how much was in here when they saw all the dead sharks and the bat rays. And there’s the huge striped bass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Lake Merritt is a tidal estuary, meaning it’s not fully enclosed, and is fed by both salt and freshwater. It’s basically an extension of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I meet Kristina at a boat launch on Lake Merritt. And soon after we get there, we spot what Kristina thinks are tunicates, chunky, worm-like creatures suctioned onto the concrete launch pad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>It’s sure exciting to see how much the wildlife has come back after the fish kill in 2022, when most of everything died in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Recently, Kristina and her team started collecting nutrient samples at various locations around the lake to help put together a nutrient management plan, to try to avoid — or at least minimize the impacts — of future algae blooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of a speed boat\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>We launch a small speed boat and start slowly cruising around the lake, going from site to site to collect samples and take down some measurements.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>Here’s your bottles. And I’m going to grab coordinates so we know where we are.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>She pulls a device hooked to a buoy out of the water, which tracks things like temperature, dissolved oxygen and pH.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>Temperature right now is 21.6.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>That’s celsius. And it’s cooler than Kristina was expecting. Because we went out in October, just days after an intense heat wave, which warms up the water and can ripen it for an algae bloom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>I was worried with the heat wave that we were going to get another red tide or algae bloom. Yesterday I got three calls for harmful algal blooms in our region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Luckily, this year, Lake Merritt — and most of the bay — was spared. But algae blooms pop up every year, all over the Bay Area, and they’re getting worse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s another consequence of, you guessed it, climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kristina Yoshida: \u003c/b>We have longer, warmer summers, less precipitation. And so those situations set up perfect conditions for these algae blooms to occur.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Kristina says Lake Merritt is primed for another big algae bloom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that’s why the sampling is so important because it’s going to help the city take on a plan to make it more resilient to these blooms. The plan is still in its infancy, but the idea is to try to come up with ways to save as many creatures as possible when the next inevitable algae bloom hits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Quick little disclaimer here, the city of Oakland does not recommend swimming in Lake Merritt. Its relatively small surface area and urban surroundings make it more polluted than other parts of the bay and accidentally ingesting the lake water could be dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Let’s get back now to Robbe’s question: Is it safe to swim in the bay? I asked Eileen White, with the water quality control board.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>I would say yes, the bay is definitely swimmable…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>You may sense the caveats coming.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Eileen says she would not recommend swimming in the bay after the first big rainstorm of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>The first storm of the year usually brings a lot of pollutants into the bay because it’s washing down all that stuff that’s been there, accumulating all summer and all fall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Things like:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>It can be litter. It can be bird poop. It can be dog poop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>After any big rain storm, really, Eileen says swimming is riskier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And in the Bay Area, those big rain storms are becoming more common and more intense with climate change. So-called atmospheric rivers, which park themselves in the sky and can dump feet of rain within a few days, cause even more stormwater to runoff into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, Eileen says, that can complicate things for our wastewater treatment agencies. Especially in San Francisco, which has a \u003ci>combined \u003c/i>stormwater and wastewater system. That means they have one set of pipes underground through which all water flows out of your toilet, and your storm drain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That system can get easily overwhelmed, Eileen says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>When they get these really big storms, they can’t store enough, you know, that the runoff is coming. And so not all the stormwater can get treated and the wastewater, full treatment at their plants. And so that can result in some bacteria in the bay in certain parts of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>That happens about 10 times per year on average. In total, San Francisco discharges nearly 2 billion gallons of combined stormwater and raw sewage each year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And that poses a big public health risk for those who recreate in the bay… especially swimmers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Environmental Protection Agency along with local environmental groups are currently suing San Francisco for what they say are repeated violations of the Clean Water Act.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>San Francisco, in turn, is suing the EPA, saying the agency’s restrictions on how much sewage it can discharge are too vague.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That lawsuit made it all the way to the Supreme Court last year. The justices heard arguments in October, and are expected to present a decision by the time the current term ends in June 2025.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Music starts\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>In the meantime, Eileen says wastewater agencies are required to conduct tests after they accidentally leak sewage and also put up signs in affected areas, which can be anywhere around the bay, including right offshore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But that doesn’t always deter everyone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Eileen White: \u003c/b>Some swimmers will still decide, you know, they’re the diehard swimmers in the bay. And they may risk getting some skin rash or an infection if they swim in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>It might not kill you, but swimming in contaminated water could lead to a fever, vomiting and diarrhea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My advice? Check local news, city and wastewater agency websites… and look for signs on the beach before you dive in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s no real satisfying yes-or-no answer to Robbe’s question. It’s more like yes, \u003ci>sometimes \u003c/i>and no \u003ci>sometimes. \u003c/i>It’s yes in \u003ci>some \u003c/i>places and no in others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is that enough to convince Robbe to take the plunge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of waves breaking softly\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Maybe you could just start off kind of telling me, like, where we are right now and. And what we’re here to do.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>Yeah, we’re on Albany Beach, near sunset, and I’m about to probably jump into the water here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>After listening to this episode, Robbe very bravely agreed to meet up with me for his first-ever swim in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But first, we had to check if the conditions were safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>I haven’t seen any signs posted, but I was curious to check out if there are any swim advisories. I just looked up water quality East Bay, and there’s this great website with all of these different parks around the advisories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Robbe pulls out his phone and pulls up the East Bay parks website, which has a map of different sampling points around the East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>Let’s see, swim beach conditions. It opens as a PDF… All right! Low risk. It’s green.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>And with that, Robbe takes off his shoes, strips down to his bathing suit and starts walking down toward the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He stands on the edge of where the waves are breaking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>It’s cleaner than I thought at the edge. From a distance it looks a lot more muddy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>He wades out, until the water is up to his stomach, almost beyond the reach of my microphone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He seems ready to plunge, so I give him a countdown.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: Three, two, one. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of splashing\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>How’s it feel?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>It’s a bit colder. But I kind of want some more!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Yeah!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Robbe swims freestyle a few lengths, seems to be enjoying himself. But the cold eventually gets the best of him, and he sloshes back out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin: \u003c/b>Man, How does that feel?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Robbe Verhofste: \u003c/b>Exhilarating. Yeah, it’s my whole body’s kind of tingling. It’s definitely a little chilly, but, yeah, I’d recommend others who are curious to give it a shot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dana Cronin:\u003c/b> Robbe told me he recently signed up for a triathlon. And now that he knows it’s safe to swim in — most of the time — the bay may have just become his new training ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After a little hiatus in December, we are back with a new voting round this January. Head online to BayCurious.org to cast your vote — no signing up or annoying hoops to jump through. Here are your options:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over 1:\u003c/b> Who is “Stevens” and why is Stevens Creek in San Jose and Cupertino named after him or her?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over 2:\u003c/b> Why does San Jose have such a high concentration of Vietnamese people?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice Over 3:\u003c/b> I see peacocks sometimes in the East Foothills of San Jose. They certainly are not native to California. How did they get here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Katrina Schwartz rejoins us this week after her maternity leave, and we’ve got a new Bay Curious team member — baby Esme.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>Sounds of baby babbling\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "how-fernet-branca-became-san-franciscos-favorite-spirit",
"title": "How Fernet-Branca Became San Francisco's Favorite Spirit",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can a place be defined by a beverage? If I mention champagne, you must think of France. If I say mint julep, you’re thinking of the South. If you hear Malört, and you \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/15/dining/drinks/malort.html\">know what that is\u003c/a>, you know I’m talking about Chicago. So, what’s San Francisco’s defining drink? If you ask some people, especially bartenders, it’s Fernet-Branca. [baycuriousbug]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The difference between Fernet and those other examples is this drink is not a product of San Francisco or even of California. But it’s certainly very beloved here. It’s estimated that more than 35% of the Fernet imported into the U.S. is consumed within San Francisco city limits. The only other place that drinks more Fernet-Branca is the whole country of Argentina, where \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernet_con_coca\">Fernet and cola\u003c/a> is a very popular drink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, how did it become so wildly popular in this particular place?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s ‘Fernet’?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Fernet is a type of amaro, a neutral spirit mixed with a unique blend of herbs, aromatic barks, roots or flowers. They’re typically used as a digestif — something meant to be sipped at the end of a large meal to help settle the stomach. The spirit must be made in Italy to be called an \u003cem>amaro\u003c/em> (which means “bitter” in Italian) but there are similar types of digestifs produced in countries throughout Europe. Think Jägermeister from Germany or Bénédictine from France.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fernet-Branca, the most popular brand in San Francisco, has been made in Italy since 1845. The company is headquartered in Milan, and Branca is the surname of the family who founded and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bars/article/fernet-branca-san-francisco-antoinette-cattani-16237024.php\">still own and operate it\u003c/a>. The drink was originally marketed as a medicinal tonic, allegedly treating everything from stomach problems to menstrual cramps. This was a time when a lot of cure-all ‘health tonics’ contained a bunch of herbs and things like opium and alcohol — which, let’s be honest, were doing most of the heavy lifting to make ailing consumers feel better. As such, Fernet’s appearance in San Francisco can be traced back to prohibition, when it was sold in pharmacies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12018902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12018902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fernet bottles sit on a shelf behind the bar at Bender’s Bar & Grill in San Francisco on Dec. 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Over the years, it became popular among the city’s old-school bartenders for the light, clean buzz you get when drinking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was something that they drank behind the bar because it was more of a high,” said Antoinette Cattani, former sales and marketing rep for Fernet-Branca, “You didn’t really get drunk on Fernet. I mean, I’m sure if you drink a bottle, you could be sloppy drunk. But Fernet kind of takes the edge off…You can still count your money, you could still function, you’re not sloppy. And there was just something about it that the bartenders really liked.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The truth of how Fernet-Branca went from niche Italian sipper, to a drink cool, tattooed bar-goers take huge shots of in San Francisco dives has a lot to do with Antoinette Cattani and her particular marketing skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Marketing Blitz\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Cattani lived in Los Angeles and worked for Southern Wine and Spirits, the distributor that sold Fernet-Branca in California. The story goes that a former colleague of hers who originally hired her to market Jägermeister had gone to work for Fernet-Branca, and he asked her to come meet him in a parking lot in Orange County to try something special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He opens his trunk … and he pulls out a little tiny bottle of Fernet, and he said, ‘Drink it!’ He’s like, ‘Take the whole thing!’ And I was like, OK. So I took it down. And then I was like, ‘Ugh, what was that?’ And then, as I was walking away, I felt that immediate, like I call it, the glow Fernet brings. It’s like this glowy, warm, fuzzy feeling. And I just, like, immediately got it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cattani was excited about Fernet-Branca and went to work for them. But her initial response to the spirit turns out to be a common one. If there’s one thing people will tell you about Fernet-Branca, it’s that it’s very much an acquired taste. It is a dark, syrupy-looking liqueur with a strongly medicinal smell and taste, and unlike other similar herbal digestifs, it is not sweet at all. Even though she was passionate about selling it, Cattani was not getting the kind of enthusiasm she expected back from bartenders she was pitching it to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said she’ll never forget the time she was at the legendary Key Club in Los Angeles and when she gave someone a shot of Fernet-Branca, “This guy literally wiped his tongue and said, ‘Why would you do that to me?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she got the exact opposite reaction when she came to San Francisco. The bartenders here seemed to share her delight. So, Cattani moved up north and got to work. She immediately received a warm welcome from some influential people in the bar and restaurant industry and signed some big accounts. Then she got to work hitting bars around the city. Along with a partner, Cattani started hosting as many promotional events and parties as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The focus wasn’t just on getting bar patrons to like it. Cattani knew if she wanted people to sell it, the bartenders had to love it. Bars that committed to ordering 20 cases of Fernet at a time would be part of a “Pouring ’20s” club and get a plaque to display. She threw huge parties for the bars that sold the most Fernet and events specifically for bartenders in the city. Fernet sponsored art showings and drink specials during rock shows at places like Thee Parkside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Bartenders, art and music, always with Fernet-Branca. I knew if I married it into that community that it would be endless.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12018905\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12018905\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-800x1201.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1201\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-800x1201.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-1020x1532.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-1023x1536.jpg 1023w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL.jpg 1332w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bartender Felix Connor pours shots of Fernet for customers at Bender’s Bar & Grill in San Francisco on Dec. 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The San Francisco Drink\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cattani said when she started working for Fernet the company sold 18,000 cases a year nationally. By her third year, they were up to 44,000, with a good chunk of that in San Francisco. It wasn’t long until Fernet-Branca became synonymous with San Francisco’s bar community. You might even hear it referred to locally as the ‘bartender’s handshake.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’d get a group of bartenders, and we’d go to New York…or even in Louisiana,” Cattani said. “We’d walk in and be like, ‘Can we get a shot of Fernet?’ And they’re like, ‘Oh, bartenders from San Francisco!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cattani no longer works for Fernet-Branca, but the impact of her time at the company has lasted. Fernet is now firmly rooted in the city as a spirit that’s cool because bartenders drink it, and thus, ordering it as a bar patron makes you cool by association. It also really does grow on you. But the company hasn’t given up its marketing strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We actually had a Fernet raffle earlier this year where they gifted us a skateboard,” said Felix Connor, a bartender at Bender’s Bar and Grill on South Van Ness, “It was a beautiful Fernet skateboard, so we raffled it off to people who bought a shot of Fernet.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12018904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12018904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-1536x1023.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-1920x1279.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bartender Felix Connor talks with customers at Bender’s Bar & Grill in San Francisco on Dec. 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Connor said they sell a ton of Fernet at Bender’s, and as a bartender, it’s one of their go-to drinks. They also mentioned things like the Fernet Barback Olympics, where industry professionals compete by racing to tap kegs or see how much glassware they can carry. It’s an event the company has hosted annually for over a decade and was started in San Francisco. They also mentioned these very cool-sounding \u003ca href=\"https://www.fernetbranca.com/en/fernet-branca-world/fernet-branca-mints-coins\">Fernet-Branca coins\u003c/a> that are only given to bartenders at Fernet-sponsored events and seem to be very exclusive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so bartenders in the industry, we all know about the coins. Like, ‘I’ve never had a coin, but I’ve touched one before, and I want one.’ And so there’s like all this really great lore,” Connor said. “They’ve built this brand up, and I mean, that’s fun. You all want to be a part of something secret.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, of course, Connor said, they love pouring shots of Fernet-Branca for tourists visiting San Francisco who’ve never tried it. Though reactions, as you might expect, are mixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Kelly O’Mara contributed to this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The San Francisco Bay Area has a rich history with cocktails and spirits. We claim to be the originators of the Martini and the Mai Tai, after all. But when it comes to spirits specifically, I’d argue only one has become quintessentially San Franciscan: Fernet-Branca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s estimated that upwards of 35% of all the Fernet imported into the U.S. is consumed in San Francisco alone. Which — is surprising! If you know Fernet, you know it can be kind of a polarizing beverage, as we found when doing a taste test around the KQED office earlier this week …\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[waterfall of people saying they like it or hate it?] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did this bitter, herbal spirit become so popular in San Francisco? This week on Bay Curious, we’re going to find out. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR BREAK\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We decided to give this story to the person on the Bay Curious team who most likes Fernet-Branca… Producer Amanda Font.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’ve never had Fernet, let me describe it for you. It’s a dark, syrupy-looking liqueur with an intense herbal and strongly alcoholic aroma. It’s somewhat bitter and medicinal tasting with no sweetness and has sort of a cooling, numbing effect on the tongue. Personally, I kind of like it, but yeah, it’s an acquired taste. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fernet is a type of amaro or Italian digestif, something meant to be sipped in small amounts at the end of a meal. Amaros are basically alcohol infused with different blends of herbs, barks or flowers, giving each one a unique flavor. The word \u003cem>amaro\u003c/em> means ‘bitter’ in Italian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Though Fernet is a designation given to a type of liqueur, from here on out, we’ll be talking about one specific brand… the most popular one in San Francisco: Fernet-Branca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a nice red wine where it’s not always soft and easy drinking, but it is always tasty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Felix Connor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I have been a bartender for just about ten years. Over ten years in San Francisco. And I’ve lived here for 12 of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Felix tends bar at a couple places, including Bender’s Bar and Grill on South Van Ness in San Francisco’s Mission District. I met them there on a recent rainy afternoon because a lot of the lore around this spirit in San Francisco focuses on bartenders. It’s become so popular with folks in the bar industry that people sometimes refer to a shot of Fernet as the “Bartender’s handshake.” It’s like a little wink and nod that you’re compatriots.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something that is an acquired taste, and you have to know about it. And so there’s almost this like pride that comes with being like, no, I drink Fernet, and I like Fernet. And if I’m ordering Fernet, the person who’s pouring me a Fernet knows I’m probably a bartender or knows that I’ve been in the industry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Felix enjoys Fernet-Branca. But, and this turns out to be a pretty common story, they did NOT like it the first time they tried it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first shot of Fernet I ever had was when I must have been 21 or 22 bar backing, and it was given to me by the bartender I was bar backing for, and I shot that shot, and… it was horrible. and I did not like it very much. And so the first 4 or 5 times I had Fernet was definitely… I didn’t like it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it eventually grew on them. Now, they say, it’s definitely one of their go-to drinks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very like herbaceous, and it does have that menthol aspect, but it’s subtle, and it’s got just so many layers of flavor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And they say that Bender’s serves a ton of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know that definitely a lot of people who are transplants to San Francisco are getting into it. Partially, I think, because it’s, it’s cool. You know, like people know, the bartenders do it, and the bartenders have been like key holders to the city for a long time in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People know SF bartenders like Fernet, so that makes it kind of cool, and then patrons drink it and feel like they’re in the loop. And all this adds up to San Francisco consuming a boatload of the stuff. The city is second in consumption only to the entire country of Argentina, where they mostly drink it mixed with Coca-Cola. But why do bartenders here like it so much in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know why or how it spread. But I do know it’s been like 25 years of this, at least, in the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, about 25 years. So did all the San Francisco bartenders simultaneously have a dream one night in the late 90s where an angel told them to start drinking Fernet-Branca?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sorry that my Italian voice cuts through cement. You got to tell me when I’m at a ten to just keep it to a five. I’m very aware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course not! This is America, baby. The real answer is brilliant marketing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I found Fernet, I was still in Los Angeles and I was working for the distributor that had it at the time, which was Southern Wine and Spirits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Antoinette Cattani. The evangelist bearing the joy of Fernet to the fine people of San Francisco. Early in her career, Antoinette had done sales and marketing for Jägermeister (you may have heard of it.) It’s a kind of German cousin to herbal Italian amaros like Fernet, but sweet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the gentleman who hired me for Jägermeister in the early nineties had just left Jägermeister and went to Fernet-Branca. And he said, Hey kiddo, you got to come in and talk to me about this brand. I’ve got something good for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He tells her, “Drive out of LA, and come meet me in this parking lot in Orange County.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I go to Orange County. And he pulls out a little tiny bottle of Fernet and he says, Drink it. And so I downed it. He says take the whole thing. And I was like, okay. And then I was like, Oh, what was that like? My immediate response was like, What the (beep) was that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But within minutes, Antoinette says she knew there was something special about Fernet-Branca.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then as I was walking away, I felt that immediate, like I call it, the glow Fernet brings. It’s like this glowy, like warm, fuzzy feeling. And I just, like, immediately got it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even though it meant taking a big pay cut, she went to work for Fernet-Branca in sales and marketing, first in her home city of Los Angeles. But she wasn’t really getting the response she expected when she went out to sell it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People hated me because I was so excited and so passionate about it that I would go into these restaurants and bars and talk to people about it. So they were like waiting to taste this amazing, like delicious… And I was at the Key Club and this guy literally wiped his tongue and said, ‘Why would you do that to me?’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Antoinette says that kind of reaction was not uncommon. She got it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">over and over \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from bartenders in L.A. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And every time I came to San Francisco, it was the exact opposite. So my boss looked at me like we both had that moment. He’s like, You just need to move to San Francisco. And I was like, ‘I would love to move to San Francisco.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So she did. She was put in touch with some influential folks in the restaurant and bar industry, and they opened doors for her. She signed a few contracts with some high profile restaurant clients. And then, she started doing footwork at bars around the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My job was to know all the right bartenders, work with those bartenders and then do whatever I needed to do to get it behind the bar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, this is not to say that none of the bartenders here drank Fernet-Branca before Antoinette showed up. It had some history in San Francisco, going back to prohibition when it was sold in pharmacies as a medicinal tonic for stomach issues. A lot of quote-unquote tonics back in the day contained a bunch of herbs, and oh, just something to help take the edge off your pain… like opium or alcohol. So in the late ’90s, when Antoinette moved to San Francisco, it was already being enjoyed by the city’s old-school bartenders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was something that they drank behind the bar because it was more of a high. You didn’t really get drunk like Fernet. I mean, I’m sure if you drink a bottle, you could be sloppy drunk. But like Fernet was more of like, kind of takes the edge off and you get this high from it. You can still count your money, you could still function, you’re not sloppy. And there was just something about it that the bartenders really liked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Antionette knew she had to make it popular among a younger, hipper crowd. So she, along with another woman she worked with, started making the rounds and doing promotion events. They handed out shots at the Bay to Breakers race. Or they’d sponsor Fernet drink specials during rock shows at Thee Parkside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was bartenders, art and music, always with Fernet-Branca. I knew if I married it into that community that, it would be endless.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when most liquor companies were just sending 2 hot girls into bars to do promotions, Antoinette was like, “No.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And our thing was like, why are we just going to send 2 girls? Isn’t there as many women in the bar as there are men? So we were like sending in either two guys or one guy and a girl. We didn’t just send in two girls and do it that way. So we were very different in everything we did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She says they were approachable, energetic, and when they went to a bar to host an event, they’d get people really fired up about Fernet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, and it is really contagious because whatever we’d be doing at this side of the bar, all of a sudden, everybody at the other end of the bar is interested. So next thing, you know, I’ve made my way down to every single barstool and I’ve talked to every single person in the bar, and every single person in the bar had a shot of Fernet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It started to become more popular among bar patrons, but the focus was still really on getting the bartenders and owners to love Fernet. If a bar would commit to buying 20 cases of Fernet at a time, they’d be part of the “Pouring ’20’s Club” and all the bartenders would get invited to this huge party once a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I had old school cars and everybody would dress up and really good deejays.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Antoinette says when she started working for Fernet-Branca they were selling about 18,000 cases a year nationally. By her third year, they were up to 44,000. A good chunk of that increase was sales in San Francisco. Fernet-Branca and San Francisco were inextricably linked. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d get a group of bartenders and we’d go to New York or something like that, we’d walk in or even in Louisiana, we’d walk in and be like, Can we get a shot of Fernet? They’re like, Oh, bartenders from San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there you have it. Antoinette no longer works for Fernet-Branca, but the impact of the marketing blitz she helped create has lasted. This nearly 180-year-old, strongly medicinal-tasting Italian spirit is a drink imbibed by cool people in the know. And even though Fernet-Branca’s popularity seems like it might be self-sustaining now, it doesn’t mean they’ve stopped marketing it to bartenders. Back at Bender’s in the Mission, bartender Felix tells me about the kind of things Fernet is still doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We actually had a Fernet raffle earlier this year where they gifted us a skateboard as merchandise. So it was a beautiful Fernet skateboard,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we raffled it off to people who bought a shot of Fernet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Felix mentioned these very cool-sounding metal coins minted by Fernet-Branca that can only be given to bartenders by Fernet at special events or promotions. And, like, it’s very exclusive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, like bartenders in the industry, we all know about the coins. Like, “I’ve never had a coin, but I’ve touched one before, and I want one.” And so there’s like all this really great lore. They’ve built this brand up, and I mean, that’s fun. You all want to be a part of something secret. You want a secret coin. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Fernet, if you’re listening… I think Felix over at Bender’s deserves a coin, don’t you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of my favorite things to do with tourists is to make them drink Fernet. So, like, no matter which bar, if I’m, like, talking to somebody and they’ve never been to San Francisco before, I’ll just be like, so you’ve never had Fernet before?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Reactions, as you might guess, are mixed. So, as you’re out with friends this holiday season, maybe toast with a shot of Fernet-Branca…and get that warm and fuzzy glow people refer to. Or, if you’re one of the haters… Felix and I will toast for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(Felix and Amanda cheers)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer Amanda Font. Big thanks to Kelly O’Mara and Ana De Almeida Amaral for their help on this story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s a wrap for Bay Curious in 2024. The show will be off next week. Back in your feeds on Jan. 2. In the meantime, why not listen back through the Bay Curious archive? Did you know we’ve made more than 400 episodes! Just head to your favorite podcast app, and scroll back, scroll back — and see what goodies you can find.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We hope you have a joyful holiday season and do something special to ring in the New Year. Might we suggest … a shot of Fernet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s to 2025! Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(Takes a sip of Fernet and yelps)\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"excerpt": "Fernet-Branca is a polarizing drink, to say the least. How did it become so beloved by San Francisco's bar community? ",
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"title": "How Fernet-Branca Became San Francisco's Favorite Spirit | KQED",
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"headline": "How Fernet-Branca Became San Francisco's Favorite Spirit",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Can a place be defined by a beverage? If I mention champagne, you must think of France. If I say mint julep, you’re thinking of the South. If you hear Malört, and you \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/15/dining/drinks/malort.html\">know what that is\u003c/a>, you know I’m talking about Chicago. So, what’s San Francisco’s defining drink? If you ask some people, especially bartenders, it’s Fernet-Branca. \u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The difference between Fernet and those other examples is this drink is not a product of San Francisco or even of California. But it’s certainly very beloved here. It’s estimated that more than 35% of the Fernet imported into the U.S. is consumed within San Francisco city limits. The only other place that drinks more Fernet-Branca is the whole country of Argentina, where \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernet_con_coca\">Fernet and cola\u003c/a> is a very popular drink.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, how did it become so wildly popular in this particular place?\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s ‘Fernet’?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Fernet is a type of amaro, a neutral spirit mixed with a unique blend of herbs, aromatic barks, roots or flowers. They’re typically used as a digestif — something meant to be sipped at the end of a large meal to help settle the stomach. The spirit must be made in Italy to be called an \u003cem>amaro\u003c/em> (which means “bitter” in Italian) but there are similar types of digestifs produced in countries throughout Europe. Think Jägermeister from Germany or Bénédictine from France.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fernet-Branca, the most popular brand in San Francisco, has been made in Italy since 1845. The company is headquartered in Milan, and Branca is the surname of the family who founded and \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfgate.com/bars/article/fernet-branca-san-francisco-antoinette-cattani-16237024.php\">still own and operate it\u003c/a>. The drink was originally marketed as a medicinal tonic, allegedly treating everything from stomach problems to menstrual cramps. This was a time when a lot of cure-all ‘health tonics’ contained a bunch of herbs and things like opium and alcohol — which, let’s be honest, were doing most of the heavy lifting to make ailing consumers feel better. As such, Fernet’s appearance in San Francisco can be traced back to prohibition, when it was sold in pharmacies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12018902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12018902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-07-BL.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Fernet bottles sit on a shelf behind the bar at Bender’s Bar & Grill in San Francisco on Dec. 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Over the years, it became popular among the city’s old-school bartenders for the light, clean buzz you get when drinking it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was something that they drank behind the bar because it was more of a high,” said Antoinette Cattani, former sales and marketing rep for Fernet-Branca, “You didn’t really get drunk on Fernet. I mean, I’m sure if you drink a bottle, you could be sloppy drunk. But Fernet kind of takes the edge off…You can still count your money, you could still function, you’re not sloppy. And there was just something about it that the bartenders really liked.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The truth of how Fernet-Branca went from niche Italian sipper, to a drink cool, tattooed bar-goers take huge shots of in San Francisco dives has a lot to do with Antoinette Cattani and her particular marketing skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Marketing Blitz\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the ’90s, Cattani lived in Los Angeles and worked for Southern Wine and Spirits, the distributor that sold Fernet-Branca in California. The story goes that a former colleague of hers who originally hired her to market Jägermeister had gone to work for Fernet-Branca, and he asked her to come meet him in a parking lot in Orange County to try something special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He opens his trunk … and he pulls out a little tiny bottle of Fernet, and he said, ‘Drink it!’ He’s like, ‘Take the whole thing!’ And I was like, OK. So I took it down. And then I was like, ‘Ugh, what was that?’ And then, as I was walking away, I felt that immediate, like I call it, the glow Fernet brings. It’s like this glowy, warm, fuzzy feeling. And I just, like, immediately got it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cattani was excited about Fernet-Branca and went to work for them. But her initial response to the spirit turns out to be a common one. If there’s one thing people will tell you about Fernet-Branca, it’s that it’s very much an acquired taste. It is a dark, syrupy-looking liqueur with a strongly medicinal smell and taste, and unlike other similar herbal digestifs, it is not sweet at all. Even though she was passionate about selling it, Cattani was not getting the kind of enthusiasm she expected back from bartenders she was pitching it to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said she’ll never forget the time she was at the legendary Key Club in Los Angeles and when she gave someone a shot of Fernet-Branca, “This guy literally wiped his tongue and said, ‘Why would you do that to me?’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But she got the exact opposite reaction when she came to San Francisco. The bartenders here seemed to share her delight. So, Cattani moved up north and got to work. She immediately received a warm welcome from some influential people in the bar and restaurant industry and signed some big accounts. Then she got to work hitting bars around the city. Along with a partner, Cattani started hosting as many promotional events and parties as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The focus wasn’t just on getting bar patrons to like it. Cattani knew if she wanted people to sell it, the bartenders had to love it. Bars that committed to ordering 20 cases of Fernet at a time would be part of a “Pouring ’20s” club and get a plaque to display. She threw huge parties for the bars that sold the most Fernet and events specifically for bartenders in the city. Fernet sponsored art showings and drink specials during rock shows at places like Thee Parkside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Bartenders, art and music, always with Fernet-Branca. I knew if I married it into that community that it would be endless.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12018905\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12018905\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-800x1201.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"1201\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-800x1201.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-1020x1532.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-160x240.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL-1023x1536.jpg 1023w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-18-BL.jpg 1332w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bartender Felix Connor pours shots of Fernet for customers at Bender’s Bar & Grill in San Francisco on Dec. 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The San Francisco Drink\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Cattani said when she started working for Fernet the company sold 18,000 cases a year nationally. By her third year, they were up to 44,000, with a good chunk of that in San Francisco. It wasn’t long until Fernet-Branca became synonymous with San Francisco’s bar community. You might even hear it referred to locally as the ‘bartender’s handshake.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’d get a group of bartenders, and we’d go to New York…or even in Louisiana,” Cattani said. “We’d walk in and be like, ‘Can we get a shot of Fernet?’ And they’re like, ‘Oh, bartenders from San Francisco!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cattani no longer works for Fernet-Branca, but the impact of her time at the company has lasted. Fernet is now firmly rooted in the city as a spirit that’s cool because bartenders drink it, and thus, ordering it as a bar patron makes you cool by association. It also really does grow on you. But the company hasn’t given up its marketing strategy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We actually had a Fernet raffle earlier this year where they gifted us a skateboard,” said Felix Connor, a bartender at Bender’s Bar and Grill on South Van Ness, “It was a beautiful Fernet skateboard, so we raffled it off to people who bought a shot of Fernet.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12018904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12018904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-1020x679.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-1536x1023.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL-1920x1279.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/12/241214-Fernet-10-BL.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bartender Felix Connor talks with customers at Bender’s Bar & Grill in San Francisco on Dec. 14, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Connor said they sell a ton of Fernet at Bender’s, and as a bartender, it’s one of their go-to drinks. They also mentioned things like the Fernet Barback Olympics, where industry professionals compete by racing to tap kegs or see how much glassware they can carry. It’s an event the company has hosted annually for over a decade and was started in San Francisco. They also mentioned these very cool-sounding \u003ca href=\"https://www.fernetbranca.com/en/fernet-branca-world/fernet-branca-mints-coins\">Fernet-Branca coins\u003c/a> that are only given to bartenders at Fernet-sponsored events and seem to be very exclusive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And so bartenders in the industry, we all know about the coins. Like, ‘I’ve never had a coin, but I’ve touched one before, and I want one.’ And so there’s like all this really great lore,” Connor said. “They’ve built this brand up, and I mean, that’s fun. You all want to be a part of something secret.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And, of course, Connor said, they love pouring shots of Fernet-Branca for tourists visiting San Francisco who’ve never tried it. Though reactions, as you might expect, are mixed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Kelly O’Mara contributed to this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The San Francisco Bay Area has a rich history with cocktails and spirits. We claim to be the originators of the Martini and the Mai Tai, after all. But when it comes to spirits specifically, I’d argue only one has become quintessentially San Franciscan: Fernet-Branca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s estimated that upwards of 35% of all the Fernet imported into the U.S. is consumed in San Francisco alone. Which — is surprising! If you know Fernet, you know it can be kind of a polarizing beverage, as we found when doing a taste test around the KQED office earlier this week …\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Music\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[waterfall of people saying they like it or hate it?] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How did this bitter, herbal spirit become so popular in San Francisco? This week on Bay Curious, we’re going to find out. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We’ll be right back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR BREAK\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We decided to give this story to the person on the Bay Curious team who most likes Fernet-Branca… Producer Amanda Font.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’ve never had Fernet, let me describe it for you. It’s a dark, syrupy-looking liqueur with an intense herbal and strongly alcoholic aroma. It’s somewhat bitter and medicinal tasting with no sweetness and has sort of a cooling, numbing effect on the tongue. Personally, I kind of like it, but yeah, it’s an acquired taste. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fernet is a type of amaro or Italian digestif, something meant to be sipped in small amounts at the end of a meal. Amaros are basically alcohol infused with different blends of herbs, barks or flowers, giving each one a unique flavor. The word \u003cem>amaro\u003c/em> means ‘bitter’ in Italian.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Though Fernet is a designation given to a type of liqueur, from here on out, we’ll be talking about one specific brand… the most popular one in San Francisco: Fernet-Branca. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a nice red wine where it’s not always soft and easy drinking, but it is always tasty.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Felix Connor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I have been a bartender for just about ten years. Over ten years in San Francisco. And I’ve lived here for 12 of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Felix tends bar at a couple places, including Bender’s Bar and Grill on South Van Ness in San Francisco’s Mission District. I met them there on a recent rainy afternoon because a lot of the lore around this spirit in San Francisco focuses on bartenders. It’s become so popular with folks in the bar industry that people sometimes refer to a shot of Fernet as the “Bartender’s handshake.” It’s like a little wink and nod that you’re compatriots.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s something that is an acquired taste, and you have to know about it. And so there’s almost this like pride that comes with being like, no, I drink Fernet, and I like Fernet. And if I’m ordering Fernet, the person who’s pouring me a Fernet knows I’m probably a bartender or knows that I’ve been in the industry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Felix enjoys Fernet-Branca. But, and this turns out to be a pretty common story, they did NOT like it the first time they tried it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The first shot of Fernet I ever had was when I must have been 21 or 22 bar backing, and it was given to me by the bartender I was bar backing for, and I shot that shot, and… it was horrible. and I did not like it very much. And so the first 4 or 5 times I had Fernet was definitely… I didn’t like it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it eventually grew on them. Now, they say, it’s definitely one of their go-to drinks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s very like herbaceous, and it does have that menthol aspect, but it’s subtle, and it’s got just so many layers of flavor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And they say that Bender’s serves a ton of it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I know that definitely a lot of people who are transplants to San Francisco are getting into it. Partially, I think, because it’s, it’s cool. You know, like people know, the bartenders do it, and the bartenders have been like key holders to the city for a long time in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People know SF bartenders like Fernet, so that makes it kind of cool, and then patrons drink it and feel like they’re in the loop. And all this adds up to San Francisco consuming a boatload of the stuff. The city is second in consumption only to the entire country of Argentina, where they mostly drink it mixed with Coca-Cola. But why do bartenders here like it so much in the first place? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t know why or how it spread. But I do know it’s been like 25 years of this, at least, in the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, about 25 years. So did all the San Francisco bartenders simultaneously have a dream one night in the late 90s where an angel told them to start drinking Fernet-Branca?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m sorry that my Italian voice cuts through cement. You got to tell me when I’m at a ten to just keep it to a five. I’m very aware.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Of course not! This is America, baby. The real answer is brilliant marketing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I found Fernet, I was still in Los Angeles and I was working for the distributor that had it at the time, which was Southern Wine and Spirits.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is Antoinette Cattani. The evangelist bearing the joy of Fernet to the fine people of San Francisco. Early in her career, Antoinette had done sales and marketing for Jägermeister (you may have heard of it.) It’s a kind of German cousin to herbal Italian amaros like Fernet, but sweet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the gentleman who hired me for Jägermeister in the early nineties had just left Jägermeister and went to Fernet-Branca. And he said, Hey kiddo, you got to come in and talk to me about this brand. I’ve got something good for you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> He tells her, “Drive out of LA, and come meet me in this parking lot in Orange County.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So I go to Orange County. And he pulls out a little tiny bottle of Fernet and he says, Drink it. And so I downed it. He says take the whole thing. And I was like, okay. And then I was like, Oh, what was that like? My immediate response was like, What the (beep) was that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But within minutes, Antoinette says she knew there was something special about Fernet-Branca.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And then as I was walking away, I felt that immediate, like I call it, the glow Fernet brings. It’s like this glowy, like warm, fuzzy feeling. And I just, like, immediately got it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Even though it meant taking a big pay cut, she went to work for Fernet-Branca in sales and marketing, first in her home city of Los Angeles. But she wasn’t really getting the response she expected when she went out to sell it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> People hated me because I was so excited and so passionate about it that I would go into these restaurants and bars and talk to people about it. So they were like waiting to taste this amazing, like delicious… And I was at the Key Club and this guy literally wiped his tongue and said, ‘Why would you do that to me?’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Antoinette says that kind of reaction was not uncommon. She got it \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">over and over \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">from bartenders in L.A. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And every time I came to San Francisco, it was the exact opposite. So my boss looked at me like we both had that moment. He’s like, You just need to move to San Francisco. And I was like, ‘I would love to move to San Francisco.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So she did. She was put in touch with some influential folks in the restaurant and bar industry, and they opened doors for her. She signed a few contracts with some high profile restaurant clients. And then, she started doing footwork at bars around the city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My job was to know all the right bartenders, work with those bartenders and then do whatever I needed to do to get it behind the bar. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, this is not to say that none of the bartenders here drank Fernet-Branca before Antoinette showed up. It had some history in San Francisco, going back to prohibition when it was sold in pharmacies as a medicinal tonic for stomach issues. A lot of quote-unquote tonics back in the day contained a bunch of herbs, and oh, just something to help take the edge off your pain… like opium or alcohol. So in the late ’90s, when Antoinette moved to San Francisco, it was already being enjoyed by the city’s old-school bartenders. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was something that they drank behind the bar because it was more of a high. You didn’t really get drunk like Fernet. I mean, I’m sure if you drink a bottle, you could be sloppy drunk. But like Fernet was more of like, kind of takes the edge off and you get this high from it. You can still count your money, you could still function, you’re not sloppy. And there was just something about it that the bartenders really liked.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But Antionette knew she had to make it popular among a younger, hipper crowd. So she, along with another woman she worked with, started making the rounds and doing promotion events. They handed out shots at the Bay to Breakers race. Or they’d sponsor Fernet drink specials during rock shows at Thee Parkside. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was bartenders, art and music, always with Fernet-Branca. I knew if I married it into that community that, it would be endless.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And when most liquor companies were just sending 2 hot girls into bars to do promotions, Antoinette was like, “No.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And our thing was like, why are we just going to send 2 girls? Isn’t there as many women in the bar as there are men? So we were like sending in either two guys or one guy and a girl. We didn’t just send in two girls and do it that way. So we were very different in everything we did.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She says they were approachable, energetic, and when they went to a bar to host an event, they’d get people really fired up about Fernet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, and it is really contagious because whatever we’d be doing at this side of the bar, all of a sudden, everybody at the other end of the bar is interested. So next thing, you know, I’ve made my way down to every single barstool and I’ve talked to every single person in the bar, and every single person in the bar had a shot of Fernet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It started to become more popular among bar patrons, but the focus was still really on getting the bartenders and owners to love Fernet. If a bar would commit to buying 20 cases of Fernet at a time, they’d be part of the “Pouring ’20’s Club” and all the bartenders would get invited to this huge party once a year.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so I had old school cars and everybody would dress up and really good deejays.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Antoinette says when she started working for Fernet-Branca they were selling about 18,000 cases a year nationally. By her third year, they were up to 44,000. A good chunk of that increase was sales in San Francisco. Fernet-Branca and San Francisco were inextricably linked. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Antoinette Cattani: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’d get a group of bartenders and we’d go to New York or something like that, we’d walk in or even in Louisiana, we’d walk in and be like, Can we get a shot of Fernet? They’re like, Oh, bartenders from San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So there you have it. Antoinette no longer works for Fernet-Branca, but the impact of the marketing blitz she helped create has lasted. This nearly 180-year-old, strongly medicinal-tasting Italian spirit is a drink imbibed by cool people in the know. And even though Fernet-Branca’s popularity seems like it might be self-sustaining now, it doesn’t mean they’ve stopped marketing it to bartenders. Back at Bender’s in the Mission, bartender Felix tells me about the kind of things Fernet is still doing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We actually had a Fernet raffle earlier this year where they gifted us a skateboard as merchandise. So it was a beautiful Fernet skateboard,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So we raffled it off to people who bought a shot of Fernet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And Felix mentioned these very cool-sounding metal coins minted by Fernet-Branca that can only be given to bartenders by Fernet at special events or promotions. And, like, it’s very exclusive. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so, like bartenders in the industry, we all know about the coins. Like, “I’ve never had a coin, but I’ve touched one before, and I want one.” And so there’s like all this really great lore. They’ve built this brand up, and I mean, that’s fun. You all want to be a part of something secret. You want a secret coin. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey, Fernet, if you’re listening… I think Felix over at Bender’s deserves a coin, don’t you? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Felix Connor: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">One of my favorite things to do with tourists is to make them drink Fernet. So, like, no matter which bar, if I’m, like, talking to somebody and they’ve never been to San Francisco before, I’ll just be like, so you’ve never had Fernet before?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Amanda Font:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Reactions, as you might guess, are mixed. So, as you’re out with friends this holiday season, maybe toast with a shot of Fernet-Branca…and get that warm and fuzzy glow people refer to. Or, if you’re one of the haters… Felix and I will toast for you. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(Felix and Amanda cheers)\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer Amanda Font. Big thanks to Kelly O’Mara and Ana De Almeida Amaral for their help on this story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s a wrap for Bay Curious in 2024. The show will be off next week. Back in your feeds on Jan. 2. In the meantime, why not listen back through the Bay Curious archive? Did you know we’ve made more than 400 episodes! Just head to your favorite podcast app, and scroll back, scroll back — and see what goodies you can find.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We hope you have a joyful holiday season and do something special to ring in the New Year. Might we suggest … a shot of Fernet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Here’s to 2025! Cheers.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cem>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(Takes a sip of Fernet and yelps)\u003c/span>\u003c/em>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "lost-sounds-of-san-francisco",
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"content": "\u003cp>Our lives are full of sounds. The rumble of car engines, a particular birdsong, the ‘ding’ of phone alerts, even the voices of our friends and family — these everyday noises become so regular we don’t even consider that you might hear them for the last time one day and then never again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug] While Bay Curious listener Brent Silver was watching that famous silent film clip of a “\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Trip_down_market_street_(1906).webm\">Trip Down Market Street\u003c/a>” he started to imagine the sounds of horse hooves on the road, the original cable car bells, the rumble of buggies driving by… and it got him wondering about what other sounds from the city’s past we no longer hear anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, KQED’s Rachael Myrow takes us back in time to explore some memories of sounds from San Francisco’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3472239318\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our everyday lives are full of sounds. Some welcome, like the ding of your oven when dinner is ready. [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ding\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] Or the voice of an adoring parent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia’s mom\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Happy birthday dear Olivia, Happy birthday to you!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks, Mom.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some are less welcome, like the startling trill of your alarm clock at 6 a.m. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[iPhone Alarm]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Or those ubiquitous leaf blowers in many suburban neighborhoods. [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaf blowers sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, those are both legitimately giving me a stress reaction. But these sounds become so much a part of the soundtrack of our lives it’s hard to imagine a time when we won’t hear them. But if you cast your gaze far enough into the future, that’s almost certain to be the case. It’s probably only a matter of time before any given sound becomes… lost. I’ve been thinking about this a lot ever since we got this question from longtime listener Brent Silver.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m interested in learning about what sounds are no longer heard in the San Francisco Bay Area, that used to be heard by people living here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was inspired by that famous silent film clip going down Market Street in San Francisco just before the massive earthquake and fire of 1906. If you haven’t seen it, definitely go check it out. On YouTube, you’ll find the footage paired with an imagined, but pretty credible soundtrack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They showed people on horseback and in carriages and on trolleys, and there was sound attached to it. Which made me think about what a modern drive down Market Street sounds like today and how different it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No clip-clopping of horses, but the hydraulics on a Muni Bus instead…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of Muni bus brakes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week, we’re digging into the archives to find some\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the “lost sounds” of the Bay Area – most of which you’ve almost certainly never heard. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, so Brent wants to dip into the archives to explore some lost sounds of the Bay Area. But, let’s be honest here. The number extends to something like infinity. So, here to walk us through a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">few \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is KQED’s Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve done a lot of Bay Curious stories over the years, but Brent’s question threw me for a loop. Think about it: You need the backstory behind each lost sound, to understand what’s special about each one. What it was, when it was, why we don’t hear it anymore, and why we should care. So I called Brent up and asked him to elaborate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was curious to learn whether there are any other sounds besides, maybe horse steps, that are not something that people hear on their day to day experience. And as I started thinking about it, I thought of other examples. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you have favorites? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously, the sound of technology has changed, so we no longer hear rotary phones. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of rotary phone rotating]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Umm, the bells and whistles that you might hear on cable cars and trolleys are different. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[cable car bells]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No doubt, Brent. We’ve been through several generations of cable cars and trolleys now, as that history started in 1873. He had more ideas. So many ideas! This turns out to be a huge question, Brent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of rotary phone rotating]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I decided to dial up – well, metaphorically speaking – Sam Green, a documentary filmmaker who lived in San Francisco for 20 years, from the early 1990s to the early 2010s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love San Francisco and I love sounds, so this is all fun and exciting…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Green made a movie called “32 Sounds,” released in 2022, so he loved this question from Brent about evocative old sounds from the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond, many of which are lost to time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People you loved who are gone… Their voices still exist, somewhere in you. So there’s that, and then there are sounds you never heard, but you know about, you know, you can imagine. Those are different things, I think. But related. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that idea about “lost sounds” including the sounds of people who don’t exist anymore. Like, here’s a clip of my Grandma Bea, singing to my dad when he was two years old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grandma Bea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a little boy, whose name I do not know, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child babbles] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He stands on the corner every night, night, night.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just that my grandma and my dad aren’t here any more, but you also hear in those voices the lost worlds they existed in. Because people– their accents, the way they lived and thought– makes a place, as much as any technology does. As it happens, Green’s personal list of favorite lost sounds of San Francisco includes just such a lost voice, Harold Gilliam’s voice. He was a San Francisco-based environmental journalist who wrote for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chronicle\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Examiner\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Gillam \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">died in \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2016\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at the age of 98, and Green interviewed him for another film in 2013, about fog in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harold Gilliam:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Giving a sense of the Bay, that there are ships out there in the Bay, that the ocean is rolling out there, and that the earth is turning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Often people just say, sort of like, predictable things, and he started talking about the foghorns late at night, and being awake, and how that made him feel a connection to the tides, and the mariners out on the Bay, and the spinning of the earth and the changing of the seasons, and it’s a powerful thought and a beautiful thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harold Gilliam:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a deep feeling that’s hard to explain. A feeling of community with the turning of the earth and the apparent motions of the stars, and the motions of the tides. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gilliam was one of those people who helped describe and define the city for others. His columns – and interviews – explained a lot of the natural phenomena we observe around us but don’t necessarily understand, that are nonetheless moving us in profound ways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[foghorn rings]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The foghorns are\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">perhaps the most iconic sound attached to San Francisco and thankfully one that is not lost yet, even as technology has relegated them to more of a backup system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaking of backup systems, here’s one that doesn’t work anymore. The San Francisco Outdoor Warning System, AKA the Tuesday noon siren. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[siren wails]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brent also asked about this one, which is a lost sound because \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the 119 sirens have been silent since late 2019, due to cybersecurity concerns — and really, the city’s failure to fork over the money for a revamp. Green, like many people who’ve lived in San Francisco, recalls the sirens fondly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s speakers all over the city and it would be this weird voice saying, like, “This is a test.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over loudspeaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a test of the outdoor warning system. This is only a test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, people and defunct technologies are just two categories of lost sounds. Another key category–music. Green made a short film about a musical group that many fans think are distinctively Bay Area. It’s called “Meet the Kronos Quartet.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[classical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">string quartet based in San Francisco for 50 years \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">with a rotating cast of musicians is famous for their passion playing — not just classical music — but many other kinds, too. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Green loved their early sound, with the original musicians.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We would travel together all over the world, showing this film together. It was a film that didn’t exist on Netflix or YouTube. And every time we’d do it, I would sit there on stage and listen to them play. And it just was, you know, it never got old. It was always a deep and profound thrill. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s power through a couple more lost sounds I found while nosing around for this story– sounds few people who were there are still alive to remember. They’re from San Francisco’s radio airwaves, long gone here on earth though still out there somewhere, travelling deep into outer space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here, for instance, is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Paul Robeson, the iconic bass-baritone singer and social justice activist, recorded giving a speech in May of 1946 to the Marine Cooks & Stewards Union during a banquet held in his honor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Robeson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I come from a slave father. Not grandfather, a slave father, born in Eastern North Carolina in 1843. Escaped from slavery in 1858. A contemporary co fighter with Fredrick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, John Brown, Sojourner Truth and William Lloyd Garrison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would I have loved to be a fly on the wall in that hall, just to see him speak live. Among other things, Robeson praised that union for its progressive efforts to organize around racial equity– another reminder that social activism in the Bay Area didn’t start in the 1960s. OK, number two, here’s something that used to be quite common in San Francisco, but now, not so much: LIVE jazz on the radio. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jazz ensemble playing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the Anson Weeks Orchestra, playing the 1929 hit song, “Singin’ in the Rain.” From 1929 to 1932, the Anson Weeks Orchestra broadcast weekly from the Mark Hopkins Hotel, which as luck would have it is still there, on the top of Nob Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I gotta thank you, Brent, for sending me down this particular sonic rabbit hole. The journey got me thinking about how at any given point in time a city’s soundscape, like that of San Francisco’s, is an ephemeral blend of its people and the technologies they used to move through their days and the music that formed the soundtrack to their lives. Right now, at this very moment, we’re all awash in sounds that will recede into the mists of memory as we travel on this river of time that never passes the same way twice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Collage of sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Rachael Myrow, Senior Editor of KQED’s Silicon Valley Desk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are deep into planning for the podcast in 2025, and we’d really like to do some stories about climate change. So if you’ve got a question about how it’s affecting the Bay Area, or steps we can take to solve it that impact anything from the energy we use, the transit we take, to the food we eat – we are all ears. Submit your question at BayCurious.org. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. In this giving time of year, please consider becoming a KQED member. Donations of any size make a difference and help support programs like this one. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Kaitie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Our lives are full of sounds. The rumble of car engines, a particular birdsong, the ‘ding’ of phone alerts, even the voices of our friends and family — these everyday noises become so regular we don’t even consider that you might hear them for the last time one day and then never again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp> While Bay Curious listener Brent Silver was watching that famous silent film clip of a “\u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Trip_down_market_street_(1906).webm\">Trip Down Market Street\u003c/a>” he started to imagine the sounds of horse hooves on the road, the original cable car bells, the rumble of buggies driving by… and it got him wondering about what other sounds from the city’s past we no longer hear anymore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, KQED’s Rachael Myrow takes us back in time to explore some memories of sounds from San Francisco’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC3472239318\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our everyday lives are full of sounds. Some welcome, like the ding of your oven when dinner is ready. [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ding\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] Or the voice of an adoring parent.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia’s mom\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Happy birthday dear Olivia, Happy birthday to you!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks, Mom.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some are less welcome, like the startling trill of your alarm clock at 6 a.m. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[iPhone Alarm]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Or those ubiquitous leaf blowers in many suburban neighborhoods. [\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Leaf blowers sounds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">] \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Okay, those are both legitimately giving me a stress reaction. But these sounds become so much a part of the soundtrack of our lives it’s hard to imagine a time when we won’t hear them. But if you cast your gaze far enough into the future, that’s almost certain to be the case. It’s probably only a matter of time before any given sound becomes… lost. I’ve been thinking about this a lot ever since we got this question from longtime listener Brent Silver.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m interested in learning about what sounds are no longer heard in the San Francisco Bay Area, that used to be heard by people living here?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He was inspired by that famous silent film clip going down Market Street in San Francisco just before the massive earthquake and fire of 1906. If you haven’t seen it, definitely go check it out. On YouTube, you’ll find the footage paired with an imagined, but pretty credible soundtrack.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They showed people on horseback and in carriages and on trolleys, and there was sound attached to it. Which made me think about what a modern drive down Market Street sounds like today and how different it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No clip-clopping of horses, but the hydraulics on a Muni Bus instead…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of Muni bus brakes]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This week, we’re digging into the archives to find some\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">of the “lost sounds” of the Bay Area – most of which you’ve almost certainly never heard. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> OK, so Brent wants to dip into the archives to explore some lost sounds of the Bay Area. But, let’s be honest here. The number extends to something like infinity. So, here to walk us through a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">few \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">is KQED’s Rachael Myrow.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve done a lot of Bay Curious stories over the years, but Brent’s question threw me for a loop. Think about it: You need the backstory behind each lost sound, to understand what’s special about each one. What it was, when it was, why we don’t hear it anymore, and why we should care. So I called Brent up and asked him to elaborate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I was curious to learn whether there are any other sounds besides, maybe horse steps, that are not something that people hear on their day to day experience. And as I started thinking about it, I thought of other examples. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you have favorites? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Obviously, the sound of technology has changed, so we no longer hear rotary phones. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of rotary phone rotating]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Brent Silver: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Umm, the bells and whistles that you might hear on cable cars and trolleys are different. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[cable car bells]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No doubt, Brent. We’ve been through several generations of cable cars and trolleys now, as that history started in 1873. He had more ideas. So many ideas! This turns out to be a huge question, Brent. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of rotary phone rotating]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I decided to dial up – well, metaphorically speaking – Sam Green, a documentary filmmaker who lived in San Francisco for 20 years, from the early 1990s to the early 2010s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love San Francisco and I love sounds, so this is all fun and exciting…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Green made a movie called “32 Sounds,” released in 2022, so he loved this question from Brent about evocative old sounds from the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond, many of which are lost to time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">People you loved who are gone… Their voices still exist, somewhere in you. So there’s that, and then there are sounds you never heard, but you know about, you know, you can imagine. Those are different things, I think. But related. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I love that idea about “lost sounds” including the sounds of people who don’t exist anymore. Like, here’s a clip of my Grandma Bea, singing to my dad when he was two years old.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Grandma Bea: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There is a little boy, whose name I do not know, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child babbles] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He stands on the corner every night, night, night.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s not just that my grandma and my dad aren’t here any more, but you also hear in those voices the lost worlds they existed in. Because people– their accents, the way they lived and thought– makes a place, as much as any technology does. As it happens, Green’s personal list of favorite lost sounds of San Francisco includes just such a lost voice, Harold Gilliam’s voice. He was a San Francisco-based environmental journalist who wrote for the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Chronicle\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and the \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Examiner\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Gillam \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">died in \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">2016\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> at the age of 98, and Green interviewed him for another film in 2013, about fog in San Francisco. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harold Gilliam:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Giving a sense of the Bay, that there are ships out there in the Bay, that the ocean is rolling out there, and that the earth is turning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Often people just say, sort of like, predictable things, and he started talking about the foghorns late at night, and being awake, and how that made him feel a connection to the tides, and the mariners out on the Bay, and the spinning of the earth and the changing of the seasons, and it’s a powerful thought and a beautiful thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Harold Gilliam:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a deep feeling that’s hard to explain. A feeling of community with the turning of the earth and the apparent motions of the stars, and the motions of the tides. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Gilliam was one of those people who helped describe and define the city for others. His columns – and interviews – explained a lot of the natural phenomena we observe around us but don’t necessarily understand, that are nonetheless moving us in profound ways. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[foghorn rings]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The foghorns are\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">perhaps the most iconic sound attached to San Francisco and thankfully one that is not lost yet, even as technology has relegated them to more of a backup system. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Speaking of backup systems, here’s one that doesn’t work anymore. The San Francisco Outdoor Warning System, AKA the Tuesday noon siren. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[siren wails]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Brent also asked about this one, which is a lost sound because \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">the 119 sirens have been silent since late 2019, due to cybersecurity concerns — and really, the city’s failure to fork over the money for a revamp. Green, like many people who’ve lived in San Francisco, recalls the sirens fondly.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s speakers all over the city and it would be this weird voice saying, like, “This is a test.”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over loudspeaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is a test of the outdoor warning system. This is only a test.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Of course, people and defunct technologies are just two categories of lost sounds. Another key category–music. Green made a short film about a musical group that many fans think are distinctively Bay Area. It’s called “Meet the Kronos Quartet.” \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[classical music]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">string quartet based in San Francisco for 50 years \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">with a rotating cast of musicians is famous for their passion playing — not just classical music — but many other kinds, too. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Green loved their early sound, with the original musicians.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sam Green:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We would travel together all over the world, showing this film together. It was a film that didn’t exist on Netflix or YouTube. And every time we’d do it, I would sit there on stage and listen to them play. And it just was, you know, it never got old. It was always a deep and profound thrill. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Let’s power through a couple more lost sounds I found while nosing around for this story– sounds few people who were there are still alive to remember. They’re from San Francisco’s radio airwaves, long gone here on earth though still out there somewhere, travelling deep into outer space. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Here, for instance, is\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Paul Robeson, the iconic bass-baritone singer and social justice activist, recorded giving a speech in May of 1946 to the Marine Cooks & Stewards Union during a banquet held in his honor.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Paul Robeson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I come from a slave father. Not grandfather, a slave father, born in Eastern North Carolina in 1843. Escaped from slavery in 1858. A contemporary co fighter with Fredrick Douglas, Harriet Tubman, John Brown, Sojourner Truth and William Lloyd Garrison.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Would I have loved to be a fly on the wall in that hall, just to see him speak live. Among other things, Robeson praised that union for its progressive efforts to organize around racial equity– another reminder that social activism in the Bay Area didn’t start in the 1960s. OK, number two, here’s something that used to be quite common in San Francisco, but now, not so much: LIVE jazz on the radio. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Jazz ensemble playing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rachael Myrow: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is the Anson Weeks Orchestra, playing the 1929 hit song, “Singin’ in the Rain.” From 1929 to 1932, the Anson Weeks Orchestra broadcast weekly from the Mark Hopkins Hotel, which as luck would have it is still there, on the top of Nob Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I gotta thank you, Brent, for sending me down this particular sonic rabbit hole. The journey got me thinking about how at any given point in time a city’s soundscape, like that of San Francisco’s, is an ephemeral blend of its people and the technologies they used to move through their days and the music that formed the soundtrack to their lives. Right now, at this very moment, we’re all awash in sounds that will recede into the mists of memory as we travel on this river of time that never passes the same way twice. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Collage of sounds] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Rachael Myrow, Senior Editor of KQED’s Silicon Valley Desk.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are deep into planning for the podcast in 2025, and we’d really like to do some stories about climate change. So if you’ve got a question about how it’s affecting the Bay Area, or steps we can take to solve it that impact anything from the energy we use, the transit we take, to the food we eat – we are all ears. Submit your question at BayCurious.org. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. In this giving time of year, please consider becoming a KQED member. Donations of any size make a difference and help support programs like this one. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Kaitie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the whole KQED family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever wondered what the San Francisco Bay sounds like beneath the water’s surface? The Wave Organ, a sound sculpture maintained by San Francisco’s Exploratorium, has 25 pipes that shoot down into the bay, creating a unique sonic experience for visitors above. You can find the sculpture, made of recycled granite, at the end of the man-made jetty across the street from the Palace of Fine Arts. There, you can put your ear to a pipe made of PVC and concrete to hear the “music” of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Wave Organ is nothing like the trumpeting organs in a church. The art installation stretches about 60 feet across and is made of rock slabs with different seating levels that visitors can climb on. The artists behind the sculpture chose to use recycled debris from the 1906 earthquake, and remnants of headstones leftover from century-old cemetery relocations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As far as the sound the organ makes — you probably wouldn’t call it musical. This art piece features an orchestra of gurgles, splashes, and booms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12014153\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12014153\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A plaque for the Wave Organ in San Francisco on Nov. 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>The Wave Organ’s origins\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Understanding the Wave Organ’s origins requires a little lesson in San Francisco art history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This environmental sculpture was created in 1986 by artist Peter Richards in collaboration with master stonemason George Gonzalez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richards was inspired to create the Wave Organ after moving to San Francisco in 1970. He was fascinated by how the tides in the bay showed an intimate connection between the sea and the moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12014150\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12014150\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-800x522.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-800x522.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-1020x666.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-160x104.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-1536x1002.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-1920x1253.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Water flows out of a pipe at the Wave Organ in San Francisco on Nov. 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It was the first time I was near a place that had tides,” said Richards, a senior artist emeritus at the Exploratorium in San Francisco, about moving to the West Coast. “I was inherently curious about [tides] and how they worked.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richards was also inspired by artist Bill Fontana, who had recorded the sounds of pipes in a concrete dock in Sydney, Australia, in 1976. Fontana’s sonic art piece amplified and distorted bubbling and splashing sounds from the water. Richards was intrigued by the connection between physics and art to create the acoustic rhythm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richards wanted to see if he could do the same using San Francisco’s waters. So he took PVC pipes to the jetty in the city’s Marina district and began testing the sounds of different pipe configurations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12015192\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12015192 size-medium\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-800x547.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"547\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-800x547.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-1020x697.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-1536x1050.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A conceptual design of the Wave Organ originally shared at the New Music ’81 Festival. (Courtesy of the Exploratorium)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>What he found was that the sound from the organ pipes changed depending on the water level within the pipe.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>How does it work?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>In the Wave Organ, each pipe creates a vibrating column of air that amplifies sounds produced by moving water. Certain sound frequencies created by the waves are amplified, depending on the length of the pipe and water level within it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At high tides, the air columns are shorter, so the sounds are higher,” Richards explains. “The low tides produce lower frequencies.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12014154\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12014154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Pipes made of PVC and concrete at the Wave Organ in San Francisco on Nov. 12, 2024. The installation has 25 organ pipes, which sound best during high tide. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Richards prototyped his design for the Wave Organ and presented a rudimentary version of the sculpture for the New Music ’81 Festival in San Francisco, a festival for experimental music and instruments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After securing funding to create a permanent installation, Richards met fellow Bay Area-based stonemason George Gonzalez and invited him to be a collaborator on the project. Richard says that before he met Gonzalez, he had made models and drawings of what he imagined the final installation to look like, but Gonzalez brought an innovative vision and elevated the overall project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When we started working on it, the first thing we did was throw the drawings away and… just allow the stonework to determine what was needed. George [had an] amazing ability to look at this beautiful stonework and be able to put it together in a very clever and functional way,” said Richards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1986, the Wave Organ opened to the public. Decades later, it is still a favorite spot for San Franciscans who stop by on their morning walks. It’s also a destination for tourists who want to get off the beaten path and a place for fishermen to cast their lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Craig Easley, a San Franciscan who visits the Wave Organ twice a week to fish, says, “Fish or no fish, this is heaven. It’s a little bit of paradise with a 360-degree view of the bay and the city that I love.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Wave Organ is free to visit. It’s one of the few Exploratorium exhibits that is located outside the walls of the museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> During the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, we all had our little escapes. Places away from the confines of our quarantined homes to get some fresh air … and remind us that despite the distance, the rest of the world still exists. After moving to San Francisco in 2020, Robbie Rock discovered his special spot: a public art installation called the Wave Organ. It’s at the very end of a jetty sitting out in the bay, across the way from The Palace of Fine Arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robbie Rock:\u003c/strong> It’s just a really cool place to sit, watch the waves, and also to, like, hear the organ.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Wave organ is not like the massive trumpeting organs that you’ll find in a church. Its appearance and sounds are a bit less opulent, but the organ still produces a pretty grand orchestra of gurgles, hisses, and booms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[distorted gurgling from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But after all of his visits, Robbie still never really knew what, exactly, he was listening to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robbie Rock:\u003c/strong> I just had so many questions about it. Why is it there, and how does it even work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And of course…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robbie Rock:\u003c/strong> When is the best time to hear it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. This week, we’re turning an ear to the waters of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this episode is probably going to sound best with headphones, but if you’re listening on speakers, you might just want to crank it up. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To learn more about this instrument that’s being played by the bay itself, we sent out Bay Curious intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Out in the Marina district of San Francisco, just off Marina Boulevard, a jetty stretches out into the bay — It’s a man-made stretch of land protecting the docks of St Francis Yacht Club. I went there on a windy morning to visit the Wave Organ. The Wave Organ is an art installation that is partially underwater at the edge of the jetty. It’s an environmental sculpture that interacts with the natural sounds of the waves to create a unique auditory experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Ambient sound of the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> I called up Ken Finn, an educator at the Exploratorium, which is the interactive science and arts museum in San Francisco. The organ is one of the few exploratorium exhibits that is outside the walls of the museum, and it’s free! I asked Ken to show me around the Wave Organ for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> A personal favorite time to come out here…[laughs] when a storm is brewing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> The Wave Organ is a really unique installation. It looks kind of like a Roman ruin — with various slabs of granite creating different viewing levels and stone stairs leading down to the water’s edge. The organ itself is all around the installation. There are 25 organ pipes that peek out like periscopes. And visitors can place their ear next to each pipe in order to hear what is going on underwater. As I climbed around the installation with Ken, we approached an organ pipe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> Here’s one of the first pipes. And you can see now that the tide is low. You can almost trace it in its winding path down into the bay. I’m going to give it a listen here… Oh, nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Then, it was my turn to listen….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Distorted swishing sounds from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> With the tide out, the lower water level exposes the length of the pipes. Some only reach out 3 or 4 feet into the bay, while others extend out deep into the water. Then, Ken points at a stone slab on the staircase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> I like to call out that on some of these, you can see the leftover red paint, so you can tell there’s a red zone. So, some of these were old curb stones from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> That’s because most of the stone slabs used to make the sculpture are recycled pieces of granite. The jetty was originally built using stone slabs from fallen buildings after the 1906 earthquake and headstone remnants from the cemetery relocations of the early 1900s. Many still had beautiful carvings and designs, and they were given a new life with the creation of the Wave Organ.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Wave Organ was created by artist Peter Richards in collaboration with master stonemason, George Gonzalez. Peter Richards is now a senior artist emeritus at the Exploratorium, but back in 1970 he was a recent MFA graduate and new to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> It was the first time I was near a place that had tides. So, I was inherently curious about them and how they worked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> He was enamored by the changing tides and the way they revealed an intimate connection between us — and the sun and the moon. He was also inspired by a recording he had heard from artist Bill Fontana — who had recorded the sounds of cylindrical pipes he found in a concrete dock in Sydney, Australia. Peter was drawn in by the rhythmic, distorted, and almost mesmerizing qualities of this audio portrait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s a little excerpt of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Splashing sounds]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Peter wanted to see if he could intentionally create this phenomenon. So he took PVC pipes out onto the jetty just across from the Exploratorium, which at the time was housed at the Palace of Fine Arts. And he began testing the sounds of different pipe lengths and configurations. What he found was that the sound from the pipes changed depending on the water level within the pipe…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> So at High tides, the air columns are shorter, so the sounds are higher. And if you go to the low tide, it produces lower frequencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> The pipes function like a pan flute. In the Wave Organ, each pipe is a vibrating column of air that amplifies the sounds produced by the moving water. Certain sound frequencies created by the waves are amplified depending on the length of the pipe. And this is what creates a distorted orchestra of underwater sounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once he made this discovery, Peter built a prototype of the Wave Organ for an experimental music festival in 1981. He constructed a rudimentary version at the same spot on the jetty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> At that point, it was done very crudely. But we did mic it and run a telephone wire back to the Exploratorium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> The telephone wire ran across Marina Boulevard and all the way to the Palace of Fine Arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> So we had the sounds from the Wave Organ sort of echoing through the museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> And visitors loved it!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> At that point the Director Frank Oppenheimer said, “Well, we’ve got to do something with this.” So that’s when I started working seriously on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> After working to secure funding, the Exploratorium was ready to break ground on a permanent installation. That is when Peter met George Gonzalez and invited him to be the stonemason on the project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> During the conceptual development of the project, I had built some models, and I made a drawing of what I envisioned happening. And when we started working on it, the first thing we did is to throw the drawings away and put the model away and just allow the stonework to determine what was needed there. And there was George’s amazing ability to look at this beautiful stonework and be able to put it together in a very clever and functional way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> With an attention to the beautifully carved granite slabs and to the tides… the Wave Organ rose from the rocks on the jetty in 1986. The Wave Organ is a magical integration of the natural and constructed world. It’s an art piece that sits at the center of many intersections — between the sea and moon and between science and art. And here, you get to be an audience to all of it. But before I left the Wave Organ, I had to ask Ken, the educator from the Exploratorium, the question we are all waiting for: When is the best time to hear the Wave Organ?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> Definitely check the tides. And I think that visiting the Wave Organ at high tide is the best time. And it’s definitely a lot more enjoyable to be there when the tide is high, and it’s making some tones that are much more easy for us to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> But, in case you are not able to make it out to the Wave Organ at high tide — we’ll bring it to you. Here’s 30 seconds of oceanic art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Robbie Rock for asking the question and to Bill Fontana for letting us share a piece of his sonic art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Curious team is taking a little breather next week, so we won’t have a new episode.\u003cbr>\nBut, we did create a kid-friendly Spotify playlist with some of our greatest hits from over the years. If you’ve got travel plans and need to fill some time — check it out! We’ll drop a link in our show notes. We’ll be back in your feeds on Dec. 5.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gift-buying season is on the way, and I know, at least for some of you, it’s been here since Halloween, so I’d love to humbly suggest you consider giving the Bay Curious book this year. It’s chock full of history, culture, fun facts and more all about the San Francisco Bay Area. You can find it at most local bookstores and all the big online retailers. If audiobooks are more your jam, we’ve got one of those too. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">KQED.org/BayCuriousBook\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Chris Hambrick, Holly Kernan, Chris Egusa and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"title": "San Francisco’s Wave Organ Brings Sounds of the Bay to Life | KQED",
"description": "View the full episode transcript Ever wondered what the San Francisco Bay sounds like beneath the water’s surface? The Wave Organ, a sound sculpture maintained by San Francisco’s Exploratorium, has 25 pipes that shoot down into the bay, creating a unique sonic experience for visitors above. You can find the sculpture, made of recycled granite, at the end of the man-made jetty across the street from the Palace of Fine Arts. There, you can put your ear to a pipe made of PVC and concrete to hear the “music” of the bay. The Wave Organ is nothing like the trumpeting",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever wondered what the San Francisco Bay sounds like beneath the water’s surface? The Wave Organ, a sound sculpture maintained by San Francisco’s Exploratorium, has 25 pipes that shoot down into the bay, creating a unique sonic experience for visitors above. You can find the sculpture, made of recycled granite, at the end of the man-made jetty across the street from the Palace of Fine Arts. There, you can put your ear to a pipe made of PVC and concrete to hear the “music” of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Wave Organ is nothing like the trumpeting organs in a church. The art installation stretches about 60 feet across and is made of rock slabs with different seating levels that visitors can climb on. The artists behind the sculpture chose to use recycled debris from the 1906 earthquake, and remnants of headstones leftover from century-old cemetery relocations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As far as the sound the organ makes — you probably wouldn’t call it musical. This art piece features an orchestra of gurgles, splashes, and booms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12014153\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12014153\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-9-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A plaque for the Wave Organ in San Francisco on Nov. 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch3>The Wave Organ’s origins\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>Understanding the Wave Organ’s origins requires a little lesson in San Francisco art history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This environmental sculpture was created in 1986 by artist Peter Richards in collaboration with master stonemason George Gonzalez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richards was inspired to create the Wave Organ after moving to San Francisco in 1970. He was fascinated by how the tides in the bay showed an intimate connection between the sea and the moon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12014150\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12014150\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-800x522.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"522\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-800x522.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-1020x666.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-160x104.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-1536x1002.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED-1920x1253.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-2-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Water flows out of a pipe at the Wave Organ in San Francisco on Nov. 12, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It was the first time I was near a place that had tides,” said Richards, a senior artist emeritus at the Exploratorium in San Francisco, about moving to the West Coast. “I was inherently curious about [tides] and how they worked.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richards was also inspired by artist Bill Fontana, who had recorded the sounds of pipes in a concrete dock in Sydney, Australia, in 1976. Fontana’s sonic art piece amplified and distorted bubbling and splashing sounds from the water. Richards was intrigued by the connection between physics and art to create the acoustic rhythm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Richards wanted to see if he could do the same using San Francisco’s waters. So he took PVC pipes to the jetty in the city’s Marina district and began testing the sounds of different pipe configurations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12015192\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12015192 size-medium\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-800x547.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"547\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-800x547.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-1020x697.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize-1536x1050.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/conceptual-1-1-resize.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A conceptual design of the Wave Organ originally shared at the New Music ’81 Festival. (Courtesy of the Exploratorium)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>What he found was that the sound from the organ pipes changed depending on the water level within the pipe.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>How does it work?\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>In the Wave Organ, each pipe creates a vibrating column of air that amplifies sounds produced by moving water. Certain sound frequencies created by the waves are amplified, depending on the length of the pipe and water level within it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“At high tides, the air columns are shorter, so the sounds are higher,” Richards explains. “The low tides produce lower frequencies.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12014154\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-12014154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/20241112_WAVEORGAN_GC-12-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Pipes made of PVC and concrete at the Wave Organ in San Francisco on Nov. 12, 2024. The installation has 25 organ pipes, which sound best during high tide. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Richards prototyped his design for the Wave Organ and presented a rudimentary version of the sculpture for the New Music ’81 Festival in San Francisco, a festival for experimental music and instruments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After securing funding to create a permanent installation, Richards met fellow Bay Area-based stonemason George Gonzalez and invited him to be a collaborator on the project. Richard says that before he met Gonzalez, he had made models and drawings of what he imagined the final installation to look like, but Gonzalez brought an innovative vision and elevated the overall project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When we started working on it, the first thing we did was throw the drawings away and… just allow the stonework to determine what was needed. George [had an] amazing ability to look at this beautiful stonework and be able to put it together in a very clever and functional way,” said Richards.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1986, the Wave Organ opened to the public. Decades later, it is still a favorite spot for San Franciscans who stop by on their morning walks. It’s also a destination for tourists who want to get off the beaten path and a place for fishermen to cast their lines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Craig Easley, a San Franciscan who visits the Wave Organ twice a week to fish, says, “Fish or no fish, this is heaven. It’s a little bit of paradise with a 360-degree view of the bay and the city that I love.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Wave Organ is free to visit. It’s one of the few Exploratorium exhibits that is located outside the walls of the museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> During the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, we all had our little escapes. Places away from the confines of our quarantined homes to get some fresh air … and remind us that despite the distance, the rest of the world still exists. After moving to San Francisco in 2020, Robbie Rock discovered his special spot: a public art installation called the Wave Organ. It’s at the very end of a jetty sitting out in the bay, across the way from The Palace of Fine Arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robbie Rock:\u003c/strong> It’s just a really cool place to sit, watch the waves, and also to, like, hear the organ.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Wave organ is not like the massive trumpeting organs that you’ll find in a church. Its appearance and sounds are a bit less opulent, but the organ still produces a pretty grand orchestra of gurgles, hisses, and booms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[distorted gurgling from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But after all of his visits, Robbie still never really knew what, exactly, he was listening to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robbie Rock:\u003c/strong> I just had so many questions about it. Why is it there, and how does it even work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And of course…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robbie Rock:\u003c/strong> When is the best time to hear it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers your questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. This week, we’re turning an ear to the waters of the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this episode is probably going to sound best with headphones, but if you’re listening on speakers, you might just want to crank it up. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To learn more about this instrument that’s being played by the bay itself, we sent out Bay Curious intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Out in the Marina district of San Francisco, just off Marina Boulevard, a jetty stretches out into the bay — It’s a man-made stretch of land protecting the docks of St Francis Yacht Club. I went there on a windy morning to visit the Wave Organ. The Wave Organ is an art installation that is partially underwater at the edge of the jetty. It’s an environmental sculpture that interacts with the natural sounds of the waves to create a unique auditory experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Ambient sound of the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> I called up Ken Finn, an educator at the Exploratorium, which is the interactive science and arts museum in San Francisco. The organ is one of the few exploratorium exhibits that is outside the walls of the museum, and it’s free! I asked Ken to show me around the Wave Organ for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> A personal favorite time to come out here…[laughs] when a storm is brewing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> The Wave Organ is a really unique installation. It looks kind of like a Roman ruin — with various slabs of granite creating different viewing levels and stone stairs leading down to the water’s edge. The organ itself is all around the installation. There are 25 organ pipes that peek out like periscopes. And visitors can place their ear next to each pipe in order to hear what is going on underwater. As I climbed around the installation with Ken, we approached an organ pipe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> Here’s one of the first pipes. And you can see now that the tide is low. You can almost trace it in its winding path down into the bay. I’m going to give it a listen here… Oh, nice.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Then, it was my turn to listen….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Distorted swishing sounds from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> That’s beautiful!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> With the tide out, the lower water level exposes the length of the pipes. Some only reach out 3 or 4 feet into the bay, while others extend out deep into the water. Then, Ken points at a stone slab on the staircase.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> I like to call out that on some of these, you can see the leftover red paint, so you can tell there’s a red zone. So, some of these were old curb stones from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> That’s because most of the stone slabs used to make the sculpture are recycled pieces of granite. The jetty was originally built using stone slabs from fallen buildings after the 1906 earthquake and headstone remnants from the cemetery relocations of the early 1900s. Many still had beautiful carvings and designs, and they were given a new life with the creation of the Wave Organ.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Wave Organ was created by artist Peter Richards in collaboration with master stonemason, George Gonzalez. Peter Richards is now a senior artist emeritus at the Exploratorium, but back in 1970 he was a recent MFA graduate and new to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> It was the first time I was near a place that had tides. So, I was inherently curious about them and how they worked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> He was enamored by the changing tides and the way they revealed an intimate connection between us — and the sun and the moon. He was also inspired by a recording he had heard from artist Bill Fontana — who had recorded the sounds of cylindrical pipes he found in a concrete dock in Sydney, Australia. Peter was drawn in by the rhythmic, distorted, and almost mesmerizing qualities of this audio portrait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s a little excerpt of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Splashing sounds]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Peter wanted to see if he could intentionally create this phenomenon. So he took PVC pipes out onto the jetty just across from the Exploratorium, which at the time was housed at the Palace of Fine Arts. And he began testing the sounds of different pipe lengths and configurations. What he found was that the sound from the pipes changed depending on the water level within the pipe…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> So at High tides, the air columns are shorter, so the sounds are higher. And if you go to the low tide, it produces lower frequencies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> The pipes function like a pan flute. In the Wave Organ, each pipe is a vibrating column of air that amplifies the sounds produced by the moving water. Certain sound frequencies created by the waves are amplified depending on the length of the pipe. And this is what creates a distorted orchestra of underwater sounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Once he made this discovery, Peter built a prototype of the Wave Organ for an experimental music festival in 1981. He constructed a rudimentary version at the same spot on the jetty.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> At that point, it was done very crudely. But we did mic it and run a telephone wire back to the Exploratorium.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> The telephone wire ran across Marina Boulevard and all the way to the Palace of Fine Arts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> So we had the sounds from the Wave Organ sort of echoing through the museum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> And visitors loved it!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> At that point the Director Frank Oppenheimer said, “Well, we’ve got to do something with this.” So that’s when I started working seriously on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> After working to secure funding, the Exploratorium was ready to break ground on a permanent installation. That is when Peter met George Gonzalez and invited him to be the stonemason on the project.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Richards:\u003c/strong> During the conceptual development of the project, I had built some models, and I made a drawing of what I envisioned happening. And when we started working on it, the first thing we did is to throw the drawings away and put the model away and just allow the stonework to determine what was needed there. And there was George’s amazing ability to look at this beautiful stonework and be able to put it together in a very clever and functional way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> With an attention to the beautifully carved granite slabs and to the tides… the Wave Organ rose from the rocks on the jetty in 1986. The Wave Organ is a magical integration of the natural and constructed world. It’s an art piece that sits at the center of many intersections — between the sea and moon and between science and art. And here, you get to be an audience to all of it. But before I left the Wave Organ, I had to ask Ken, the educator from the Exploratorium, the question we are all waiting for: When is the best time to hear the Wave Organ?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ken Finn:\u003c/strong> Definitely check the tides. And I think that visiting the Wave Organ at high tide is the best time. And it’s definitely a lot more enjoyable to be there when the tide is high, and it’s making some tones that are much more easy for us to hear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> But, in case you are not able to make it out to the Wave Organ at high tide — we’ll bring it to you. Here’s 30 seconds of oceanic art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sounds from the Wave Organ]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Ana De Almeida Amaral.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to Robbie Rock for asking the question and to Bill Fontana for letting us share a piece of his sonic art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Curious team is taking a little breather next week, so we won’t have a new episode.\u003cbr>\nBut, we did create a kid-friendly Spotify playlist with some of our greatest hits from over the years. If you’ve got travel plans and need to fill some time — check it out! We’ll drop a link in our show notes. We’ll be back in your feeds on Dec. 5.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gift-buying season is on the way, and I know, at least for some of you, it’s been here since Halloween, so I’d love to humbly suggest you consider giving the Bay Curious book this year. It’s chock full of history, culture, fun facts and more all about the San Francisco Bay Area. You can find it at most local bookstores and all the big online retailers. If audiobooks are more your jam, we’ve got one of those too. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious\">KQED.org/BayCuriousBook\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Chris Hambrick, Holly Kernan, Chris Egusa and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When some people think of the Black Panther Party, they might envision Black men in leather jackets and berets, carrying guns. This was the militant image that appeared in photographs on the front pages of countless newspapers throughout the late 1960s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4216978716\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Black Panther Party for Self Defense was founded in Oakland in 1966, as a strategy for organizing against rampant police violence. They believed in Black nationalism, socialism, and armed self-defense against police brutality. But they did way more than challenge the police and protest against racist policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’re playing an excerpt from KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/mindshift\">MindShift\u003c/a> podcast about one of the “Black Panther Party’s longest-running programs – an elementary school run mostly by women. It was a small school, but made a big impact, and its legacy lives on today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When some people think of the Black Panther Party, they might envision Black men in leather jackets and berets, carrying guns. This was the militant image that appeared in photographs on the front pages of countless newspapers throughout the late 1960s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That whole decade was a period of social and cultural change. There was the civil rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Martin Luther King, Jr. (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Women’s liberation…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>May Craig question to John F. Kennedy (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>…for equal rights for women, including equal pay…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It was a time when the very fabric of society was being questioned, and people were having big ideas about how people think and how people are taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was against this backdrop that the Black power movement was getting traction\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Malcolm X (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We are oppressed. We are exploited. We are downtrodden. We are denied not only civil rights but even human rights.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Black Panther Party for self defense was founded in Oakland in 1966, as a strategy for organizing against rampant police violence. They believed in Black nationalism, socialism, and armed self-defense against police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> The first thing that drew me to the Black Panther Party that I always remember about it… it said the Black Panther Party for Self-defense and Self-defense, people get their hackles up about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Ericka Huggins. She joined the Black Panther Party in 1968.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> People think that self-defense is physical. It can be and needs to be when necessary. However, this was about supporting people who live poor and or oppressed.\u003cbr>\nWe said you cannot continue to kill us. You can’t break down our doors to our homes and shoot at us. You cannot arrest us, wrongly incarcerate us and beat and murder us while we are incarcerated. You cannot deprive us of food, housing, clothing and peace. J. Edgar Hoover said that the Black Panther Party is the greatest threat to the internal security of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> While the Black Panthers had a reputation as a militant group, they did way more than challenge the police and protest against racist policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The panthers created a long list of community service programs that they called “survival programs”. They provided things like Free Health Clinics, Consumer Education Classes, and an Employment Referral Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. Today, we’re playing an excerpt from KQED’s MindShift podcast … about one of the “Black Panther Party’s longest-running programs – an elementary school run mostly by women. It was a small school, but made a big impact, and its legacy lives on today. We’ll get into all that right after this….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Here to walk us through the history of the Black Panther’s foray into education is Nimah Gobir, host of KQED’s MindShift podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you look up pictures of the Panthers– yes you’ll see guns and berets, but there are other images too. And the one that sticks with me is this photo of a Black Panther Party member putting down plates of food in front of young children. It’s a photo of their free breakfast program\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> Children were expected to go to school and learn without any food. We knew because we were those children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had a founding charter which included a 10 point platform. I won’t go into all of the points but it basically said that our people – Black people– need to be able to eat, find work and feel safe. This episode we’ll talk about point 5, a focus on a fulfilling and effective education system\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bobby Seale Speech at Oakland Auditorium (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We want decent education for our Black people in our community that teaches us the true nature of this decadent racist society and to teach Black people and our young Black brothers and sisters their place in this society because if they don’t know their place in society and in the world, they can’t relate to anything else\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> Education was always important in the party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Angela LeBlanc-Ernest is a documentarian and community archivist from Texas. She has studied and written books about the Panthers pursuit of education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> Whether it be the study sessions they had reading the different books by revolutionaries – political education classes is what they would call them – that were required, or whether it was party members tutoring kids in the local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She told me the idea to create a school came about when party members saw how their own kids were mistreated in mainstream schools\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> You had to start envisioning what society needed to look like for your child if they survived. Right? There is a sense so many of them didn’t think they would survive\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Party members started to conceive of a community-based alternative to the poor educational experiences they had as children. They were often disciplined harder and discouraged from asking questions. Their schools lacked supplies and books, and the curriculum rarely included stories of people who looked like them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: So in response to this they opened the Intercommunal Youth Institute in east Oakland in 1971\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> It was an old church that they converted into a school and so it was a small space. They decided that they wanted to start with the number they had, which was 50 students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Gradually, other people noticed that the students and families were being treated well at this scrappy little home school where they used mindfulness practices and restorative justice. Students were engaged, respected, and learning in an environment that valued their heritage and experiences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> When the community approached the Black Panther Party, when it was just the insular home school to say, “Hey, can you make this available to the community, to children in the community?” That was a prompt for them to think more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As new people joined from outside of the party, they began outgrowing the space and so they had to look for something more permanent. They changed the name to Oakland Community School and Black Panther Party member Ericka Huggins became the director.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We opened the Oakland Community School in the school year of 1973-74.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students were ages 5 -12, so it was basically an elementary school, but there were no grades. They were grouped according to their academic abilities. They also had childcare for kids who were younger than five.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Many of the students came from the Oakland area but some were coming from the greater bay area too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We had more than party members on staff. Not only did the people take their children out of public school, the public school teachers left, too, to work at… as it used to be, nicknamed the Panther School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This school is special for a lot of reasons, but one of the big reasons is that it was one of the earliest versions of community schools in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> The school was community based, child centered, tuition free, parent friendly and we paid special attention to children whose families had trouble with clothing and food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Nowadays when we talk about community schools, we’re talking about schools like this one, that provide for the whole child beyond academics. Often these schools have the things that families need located at or provided by the school. Oakland Community School provided groceries to families in the community and food throughout the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> Three meals a day and I said it was tuition free. The meals were also for the students and staff of the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If parents couldn’t afford the city bus. A bus from Oakland Community School would come pick their kids up. They used curriculum that actually reflected the students that were going to the school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> Our motto was “the world is a child’s classroom.” Which is a little different than the United States is the center of the universe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We talked about the enslavement of Africans. We talked about the indigenous people. We talked about the resilience and brightness of our ancestors and our generations up to them and how beautiful and bright they are. We always affirmed the children. We wanted them to know about history. We wanted them to know about themselves as people coming from great ancestry no matter their race or ethnicity. We didn’t ever turn away a student because they were not Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students at the so-called Panther school were Black –but they were also Latino they were white students they were Asian students and biracial students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins\u003c/strong>: When people see this, they’re shocked, like, oh, why are you shocked? We were the Black Panther Party and they have to think about what they’ve been told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We were just brave and committed because it wasn’t easy. I want everybody to understand that it didn’t just appear itself as one community school with all angels floating around making things happen. No, it was hard work and. But the reward was in the faces of those parents and grandparents and aunties and uncles. The faces of the staff. And most importantly, the lives of the children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After about ten years of operation, The school closed in 1982 — This was around the time when The Black Panther Party officially dissolved after years of government surveillance and attacks. The free breakfast program is believed to have paved the way for expanding the government’s School Breakfast Program, which still exists today. And the Black Panther legacy is still in Oakland. For one thing, many members of the Black Panthers are alive today and physical sites across the city bear the Panthers’ name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Nimah Gobir in an excerpt from the MindShift podcast about community schools. You can hear the full version of this episode, which explores how the school’s legacy still resonates today by subscribing to the podcast or visiting kqed.org/mindshift. We’ll put those links in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Big thanks also to Chris Hambrick for helping to produce this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The Mindshift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Ki Sung, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Kara Newhouse and Jennifer Ng. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the whole KQED Family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thank you for listening. And, hey, be sure to stick around for this month’s trivia question … bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When some people think of the Black Panther Party, they might envision Black men in leather jackets and berets, carrying guns. This was the militant image that appeared in photographs on the front pages of countless newspapers throughout the late 1960s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4216978716\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Black Panther Party for Self Defense was founded in Oakland in 1966, as a strategy for organizing against rampant police violence. They believed in Black nationalism, socialism, and armed self-defense against police brutality. But they did way more than challenge the police and protest against racist policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This week, we’re playing an excerpt from KQED’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/mindshift\">MindShift\u003c/a> podcast about one of the “Black Panther Party’s longest-running programs – an elementary school run mostly by women. It was a small school, but made a big impact, and its legacy lives on today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When some people think of the Black Panther Party, they might envision Black men in leather jackets and berets, carrying guns. This was the militant image that appeared in photographs on the front pages of countless newspapers throughout the late 1960s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That whole decade was a period of social and cultural change. There was the civil rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Martin Luther King, Jr. (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Women’s liberation…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>May Craig question to John F. Kennedy (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>…for equal rights for women, including equal pay…\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It was a time when the very fabric of society was being questioned, and people were having big ideas about how people think and how people are taught.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was against this backdrop that the Black power movement was getting traction\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Malcolm X (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We are oppressed. We are exploited. We are downtrodden. We are denied not only civil rights but even human rights.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Black Panther Party for self defense was founded in Oakland in 1966, as a strategy for organizing against rampant police violence. They believed in Black nationalism, socialism, and armed self-defense against police brutality.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> The first thing that drew me to the Black Panther Party that I always remember about it… it said the Black Panther Party for Self-defense and Self-defense, people get their hackles up about that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> This is Ericka Huggins. She joined the Black Panther Party in 1968.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> People think that self-defense is physical. It can be and needs to be when necessary. However, this was about supporting people who live poor and or oppressed.\u003cbr>\nWe said you cannot continue to kill us. You can’t break down our doors to our homes and shoot at us. You cannot arrest us, wrongly incarcerate us and beat and murder us while we are incarcerated. You cannot deprive us of food, housing, clothing and peace. J. Edgar Hoover said that the Black Panther Party is the greatest threat to the internal security of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> While the Black Panthers had a reputation as a militant group, they did way more than challenge the police and protest against racist policies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The panthers created a long list of community service programs that they called “survival programs”. They provided things like Free Health Clinics, Consumer Education Classes, and an Employment Referral Service.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious. Today, we’re playing an excerpt from KQED’s MindShift podcast … about one of the “Black Panther Party’s longest-running programs – an elementary school run mostly by women. It was a small school, but made a big impact, and its legacy lives on today. We’ll get into all that right after this….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Here to walk us through the history of the Black Panther’s foray into education is Nimah Gobir, host of KQED’s MindShift podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If you look up pictures of the Panthers– yes you’ll see guns and berets, but there are other images too. And the one that sticks with me is this photo of a Black Panther Party member putting down plates of food in front of young children. It’s a photo of their free breakfast program\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> Children were expected to go to school and learn without any food. We knew because we were those children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> They had a founding charter which included a 10 point platform. I won’t go into all of the points but it basically said that our people – Black people– need to be able to eat, find work and feel safe. This episode we’ll talk about point 5, a focus on a fulfilling and effective education system\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bobby Seale Speech at Oakland Auditorium (clip):\u003c/strong> \u003cem>We want decent education for our Black people in our community that teaches us the true nature of this decadent racist society and to teach Black people and our young Black brothers and sisters their place in this society because if they don’t know their place in society and in the world, they can’t relate to anything else\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> Education was always important in the party.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Angela LeBlanc-Ernest is a documentarian and community archivist from Texas. She has studied and written books about the Panthers pursuit of education.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> Whether it be the study sessions they had reading the different books by revolutionaries – political education classes is what they would call them – that were required, or whether it was party members tutoring kids in the local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> She told me the idea to create a school came about when party members saw how their own kids were mistreated in mainstream schools\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> You had to start envisioning what society needed to look like for your child if they survived. Right? There is a sense so many of them didn’t think they would survive\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Party members started to conceive of a community-based alternative to the poor educational experiences they had as children. They were often disciplined harder and discouraged from asking questions. Their schools lacked supplies and books, and the curriculum rarely included stories of people who looked like them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: So in response to this they opened the Intercommunal Youth Institute in east Oakland in 1971\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> It was an old church that they converted into a school and so it was a small space. They decided that they wanted to start with the number they had, which was 50 students.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir\u003c/strong>: Gradually, other people noticed that the students and families were being treated well at this scrappy little home school where they used mindfulness practices and restorative justice. Students were engaged, respected, and learning in an environment that valued their heritage and experiences.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Angela LeBlanc-Ernest:\u003c/strong> When the community approached the Black Panther Party, when it was just the insular home school to say, “Hey, can you make this available to the community, to children in the community?” That was a prompt for them to think more broadly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> As new people joined from outside of the party, they began outgrowing the space and so they had to look for something more permanent. They changed the name to Oakland Community School and Black Panther Party member Ericka Huggins became the director.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We opened the Oakland Community School in the school year of 1973-74.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students were ages 5 -12, so it was basically an elementary school, but there were no grades. They were grouped according to their academic abilities. They also had childcare for kids who were younger than five.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Many of the students came from the Oakland area but some were coming from the greater bay area too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We had more than party members on staff. Not only did the people take their children out of public school, the public school teachers left, too, to work at… as it used to be, nicknamed the Panther School.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> This school is special for a lot of reasons, but one of the big reasons is that it was one of the earliest versions of community schools in the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> The school was community based, child centered, tuition free, parent friendly and we paid special attention to children whose families had trouble with clothing and food.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Nowadays when we talk about community schools, we’re talking about schools like this one, that provide for the whole child beyond academics. Often these schools have the things that families need located at or provided by the school. Oakland Community School provided groceries to families in the community and food throughout the school day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> Three meals a day and I said it was tuition free. The meals were also for the students and staff of the school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> If parents couldn’t afford the city bus. A bus from Oakland Community School would come pick their kids up. They used curriculum that actually reflected the students that were going to the school\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> Our motto was “the world is a child’s classroom.” Which is a little different than the United States is the center of the universe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We talked about the enslavement of Africans. We talked about the indigenous people. We talked about the resilience and brightness of our ancestors and our generations up to them and how beautiful and bright they are. We always affirmed the children. We wanted them to know about history. We wanted them to know about themselves as people coming from great ancestry no matter their race or ethnicity. We didn’t ever turn away a student because they were not Black.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> Students at the so-called Panther school were Black –but they were also Latino they were white students they were Asian students and biracial students\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins\u003c/strong>: When people see this, they’re shocked, like, oh, why are you shocked? We were the Black Panther Party and they have to think about what they’ve been told.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ericka Huggins:\u003c/strong> We were just brave and committed because it wasn’t easy. I want everybody to understand that it didn’t just appear itself as one community school with all angels floating around making things happen. No, it was hard work and. But the reward was in the faces of those parents and grandparents and aunties and uncles. The faces of the staff. And most importantly, the lives of the children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> After about ten years of operation, The school closed in 1982 — This was around the time when The Black Panther Party officially dissolved after years of government surveillance and attacks. The free breakfast program is believed to have paved the way for expanding the government’s School Breakfast Program, which still exists today. And the Black Panther legacy is still in Oakland. For one thing, many members of the Black Panthers are alive today and physical sites across the city bear the Panthers’ name.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Nimah Gobir in an excerpt from the MindShift podcast about community schools. You can hear the full version of this episode, which explores how the school’s legacy still resonates today by subscribing to the podcast or visiting kqed.org/mindshift. We’ll put those links in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Big thanks also to Chris Hambrick for helping to produce this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nimah Gobir:\u003c/strong> The Mindshift team includes me, Nimah Gobir, Ki Sung, Marlena Jackson-Retondo, Kara Newhouse and Jennifer Ng. Our editor is Chris Hambrick. Seth Samuel is our sound designer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan, and the whole KQED Family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thank you for listening. And, hey, be sure to stick around for this month’s trivia question … bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "The Explosive History Hidden in Glen Canyon Park",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While searching for new hikes to try in San Francisco, Bay Curious listener Ryan Flynn stumbled across a pin on Google Maps for ‘The First Dynamite Factory in America.’ The pin marked a spot in Glen Canyon Park where visitors can find a weathered plaque mounted to a slab of concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012733\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012733\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"An image of a a plaque mounted to a slab of concrete. \" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A historical landmark for the Giant Powder Company sits at the entrance to Glen Canyon Park in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He wrote into Bay Curious, wanting to learn about the factory’s history. A few clicks down a history rabbit hole, and I found the woman to ask was Evelyn Rose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rose is a pharmacist by training and a passionate community historian who runs the Glen Park Neighborhood History Project. She first stumbled across Glen Park’s dynamite history in the 1927 edition of the \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_the_Explosives_Industry_in_Am/7SUaAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0\">History of the Explosives Industry in America\u003c/a>\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It [was] a very grainy image of what they claim [was] the site of the first dynamite factory in the United States,” she said. “And as I read the caption, it says the Glen Park playground in San Francisco, and I about fell out of my chair because it’s like, ‘Oh my God, that’s like a block from my house.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That accidental discovery kickstarted a yearslong journey to uncover a hidden history and commemorate it all with a plaque.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012734\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012734\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"A person with short hair stands in a shaded park.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Evelyn Rose, director and founder of the Glen Park Neighborhoods History Project, stands in Glen Canyon Park in San Francisco on Sept. 6, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Before dynamite, there was nitroglycerin oil\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story of how dynamite ended up in Glen Canyon Park tracks all the way back to its origins in Europe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nitroglycerin, the highly volatile chemical compound at the center of dynamite, was originally discovered by Italian chemist Ascanio Sobrero in 1846. But when the “oily substance exploded in his face and injured him, he shelved it,” Rose said. Decades later, Swedish chemist Alfred Nobel decided to build on Sobrero’s early experiments. In the 1860s Nobel started manufacturing nitroglycerin at scale and soon developed the blasting cap, a safer detonating mechanism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012741\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 235px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12012741\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A black and white image of a young man in a suit.\" width=\"235\" height=\"317\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-scaled.jpg 1898w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-800x1079.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1020x1376.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-160x216.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1139x1536.jpg 1139w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1519x2048.jpg 1519w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1920x2589.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 235px) 100vw, 235px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alfred Nobel, aged 20. Private Collection. \u003ccite>(Photo by Fine Art Images/Heritage Images/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With blasting oil ready to go, Nobel began to search for new markets. California, with its collections of mines and railroad projects, seemed like a perfect match. While Nobel never visited the Golden State, he did have a friend in Paris with a brother, Julius Bandmann, in San Francisco. Bandmann wasted no time promoting California to Nobel as the next nitroglycerin business frontier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rose said Nobel soon licensed nitroglycerin oil to Bandmann, and his company became the exclusive selling agent for it along the Pacific coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Rose’s telling of the story, that’s where things take a deadly turn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nitroglycerin oil explodes when under pressure or when exposed to spontaneous flame. If you were unfortunate enough to be on a train or ship carrying the stuff, and something went wrong, “you were likely not going to survive,” Rose said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After a series of devastating explosions — including one blast at the Wells Fargo office in downtown San Francisco that catapulted body parts across the city — Nobel’s blasting oil was pulled from shelves. The state of California seized private holdings of nitroglycerin and banned its transportation within the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Nobel, it was back to the drawing board. During the course of experimentation, he knocked a beaker of nitroglycerin oil to the ground. When it didn’t explode, he realized he’d found his answer. By absorbing nitroglycerin into silica-rich clay, it “created kind of a putty, and [Nobel] realized that it completely stabilized nitroglycerin,” Rose said. He called the new substance dynamite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012745\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012745\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A tan box of cigar-like forms.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"2521\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-800x788.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-1020x1004.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-160x158.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-1536x1513.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-2048x2017.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-1920x1891.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Nobel’s Extradynamit, found in the collection of Nobelmuseet Stockholm. Artist: Historic Object. \u003ccite>(Photo by Fine Art Images/Heritage Images/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Dynamite comes to Glen Canyon\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1866, Nobel gave Bandmann an exclusive license to start manufacturing dynamite in the United States. Bandmann rallied a group of investors around the innovation and founded the Giant Powder Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, Glen Canyon Park was a pretty barren canyon full of cows. But soon enough, Giant Powder started manufacturing dynamite there. The president of the company had invested in land in Glen Canyon and leased it to the company. The factory was run by a handful of chemists and eight Chinese workers who did most of the heavy lifting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12003601\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12003601\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Map of layout of factory.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Evelyn Rose, director and founder of the Glen Park Neighborhoods History Project, holds a possible layout of the Giant Powder Company at Glen Canyon Park in San Francisco on Sept. 6, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The mock-up of the factory’s layout represents years spent piecing together archival clues. Rose has outlined buildings like the shanty that housed Giant Powder Company’s Chinese workers and the pack house where dynamite was manufactured.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A massive explosion levels it all\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>In November 1869, the chief chemist of Giant Powder Company, Dr. John Bussenius, sat in his cottage with his assistant, Alfred Wartenweiler.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just had dinner. The door was open, so it must have been a little bit of a balmy night,” Rose said. “The Chinese workers were in their cottage having dinner, and they were about to play cards. Charles Cook, the teamster, came to the door and said, ‘Everything’s secure. The horses are stabled.’ Wartenweiler, the assistant, just happens to look out the door that faces the manufactory, and he sees a fire, and he yells, ‘Fire!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He dove for the door, Rose said, and “all of a sudden, there was this massive explosion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The explosion was so large, a home 300 yards away was nearly taken off its foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The site is obliterated,” Rose said. “The teamsters’ wagon has been thrown 150 yards away. Chinese workers were severely burned. Wartenweiler was found 50 yards away under a bunch of lumber. Diving for the door had saved his life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t until later that they found the burned bodies of Cook and Bussenius.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The exact cause of the explosion remains unknown, but there weren’t great safety practices at the time. As for the Chinese workers and how they fared in the aftermath of the explosion, details are sparse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is, however, brief mention of the laborer’s outcomes in the pages of the Sacramento Daily Union days after the disaster: “On the ground in the vicinity of the Chinese house were six or seven wounded Chinese men. They were taken in a wagon and conveyed to the city, and are now in a house on Commercial Street, above Kearny. Their names are Ah Chum, Ah Chow, Ah Sing, Ah Moy, Ah Gne, and Ah Choy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>An expanding industry in a growing region\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the site exploded in 1869, most remnants of America’s first dynamite factory disappeared from Glen Canyon Park. But some signs still linger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During our interview, Rose reached into her pocket and pulled out a piece of blue glass, twisted, warped and contorted. Rose believes it might be a fragment from the explosion. She shared a photo of other fragments that have been found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012750\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012750\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"A person with a watch holds an image of blue-colored burned glass.\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Evelyn Rose, director and founder of the Glen Park Neighborhoods History Project, holds photos of burned glass she believes came from the dynamite explosion at the Giant Powder Company in 1869. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the disaster, Giant Powder Company moved to the sand dunes near what is now Golden Gate Park, pulling the dynamite industry to the outskirts of the growing city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Seth Lunine, continuing lecturer in the Department of Geography at UC Berkeley, this rapid industrial development represented a key moment in San Francisco’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The desire to circumvent patents led “to a lot of innovation in different types and classes and categories of high explosives,” Lunine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the realm of explosives, innovation often comes hand-in-hand with disaster. Soon enough, Giant Powder Company’s new factory exploded. This — along with explosions at other SF-based factories — was the last straw for San Francisco residents. The city kicked all dynamite manufacturers out, forcing them across the Bay. (Giant Powder Company’s Berkeley factory blew up, too.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Lunine, these explosions and relocations still echo through our urban landscape today. Each move expanded “the economic geography of the Bay region,” he said. “Pulling suppliers, pulling chemical works, pulling laborers to the East Bay to create these new factories, and in doing so, sort of stretching out the economic fabric of the Bay region.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While mostly invisible these days, dynamite \u003cem>is\u003c/em> part of this region’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re lucky, you might even be able to find a blue-glass souvenir in Glen Canyon Park. But please don’t go digging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’ve been hiking around the Bay Area for more than a decade, and really make a point to try and get to new places – but I know I haven’t even discovered half the hikes this region has to offer. I often find myself turning to online guides and maps to find new trails in this outdoor haven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for San Francisco resident Ryan Flynn, the quest to find a perfect new hike took a more… explosive turn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Flynn:\u003c/strong> I was just kind of looking for hikes for my wife and I to do on a weekend. So I was just on Google Maps, and I happened to see a little pin for, like, a historical marker for the first dynamite factory in the United States. And that was very surprising. So I figured I would reach out to you guys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The pin Ryan stumbled across marks the location of California Registered Historical Landmark No. 1002. If you enter Glen Canyon Park from Elk street, you’ll see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> So it’s titled “The first dynamite factory in America. Giant powder company, under personal license of inventor Alfred Nobel, began producing dynamite here on March, 1868. On November 26, 1869 a massive explosion leveled the complexes, buildings and fences. [talking fades under…]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> For Ryan, this all came as a shock. So he sent in this question …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Flynn:\u003c/strong> What is the history behind Glen Canyon Park being the first dynamite factory in the US?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’ve run through Glen Canyon Park a few times and – safe to say – dynamite was not top of mind. But turns out, this peaceful park has a turbulent backstory dating back to the mid 19th century, when Alfred Nobel – yeah like the Nobel Peace Prize – invented dynamite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ll learn how dynamite made its way to San Francisco … and why it was such a transformative product in this state. Plus, we’ll explore the stories of Chinese laborers who often had the most dangerous jobs of all in the high explosives industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One quick heads up: There are a few gory details about the aftermath of explosions in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You’re listening to Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To help us answer Ryan’s question about the history of the first dynamite factory in the US, right here in SF’s Glen Canyon Park, we’ve put Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck on the job. To kick off her reporting, she headed over to the park to meet up with one of the people responsible for placing that historical plaque.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of wind and birds chirping in a park]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> I see this piece kind of catch my eye in the dirt by the trail. And I lean down and pick it up, and it’s, it’s blue with kind of the shape of a candy corn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> That’s Evelyn Rose, she’s a long time Glen Park resident, pharmacist by training, and passionate neighborhood historian.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And I’m looking at it and realize, ‘Oh my gosh, this is probably a piece of melted glass from the explosion.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> For Evelyn, her dynamite journey started in the pages of an old book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And in it is a very grainy image of what they claim is the first — the site of the first dynamite factory in the United States. And as I read the caption, it says the Glen Park playground in San Francisco, and I about fell out of my chair because it’s like, ‘Oh, my God, that’s like a block from my house.’ Had no idea….. and so it started an 11 year journey to discover the history of the dynamite factory and to get the plaque.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> The story of how dynamite made its way to Glen Canyon Park starts in 1860s Sweden… with a young inventor named Alfred Nobel. He was experimenting with nitroglycerin, a highly explosive yet highly unstable chemical compound that just too often went boom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He became the first to start manufacturing the substance on an industrial scale. And when he came up with a safer way to detonate it, California businessmen began to take notice. With their hands tied up in mining and railroad building, — Nobel’s innovations were… intriguing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And through a friend in Paris, whose brother was here in San Francisco… he licensed nitroglycerin oil to the brother of his friend, and the company was called Bandmann & Nielsen, and so they were the exclusive agent selling oil of nitroglycerin along the Pacific coast and this is about 1866.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Soon thereafter, the first crates of nitroglycerin oil arrived in San Francisco. And for California industries, the arrival of Nobel’s blasting oil was transformative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before nitroglycerin, black powder was America’s main explosive. First brought to California in the late 1840s, when miners started using it in their search for gold, the chalky powder soon became the primary blow-things-up agent in the early California mining and railroad industry. But for more than a handful of construction projects, black powder and a hand chisel just wasn’t going to cut it. And when some of those first crates of nitroglycerin oil arrived at the Central Pacific Railroad, it seemed that Californians might have struck a new kind of gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of boxes being moved and bottle clinking]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet one of the crates from that first shipment had been left behind in San Francisco… in the back room of the Wells Fargo building, among the other unclaimed freight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it was leaking….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Reading Newspaper Clipping:\u003c/strong> “On Monday, 16th, in San Francisco at fifteen minutes past one o’clock, P.M., an explosion took place in the storeroom back of Wells, Fargo & Co.’s building which demolished everything within a circuit of 40 or 50 feet. The explosion was so powerful as to shake the earth like an earthquake for a circuit of a quarter of a mile…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fragments of human remains were found scattered in many places. A piece of human vertebrae was blown over the buildings on the east side of Montgomery street. A piece of skull was lying on California street, east of Leidsdorff, with other fragments of human remains, and a human arm struck the third story window of the building across the street.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> That’s an excerpt from the pages of The Placer Herald on April 21st, 1866. The nitroglycerin disaster left San Franciscans in a panic, killing at least 15 people and maiming even more. And countless other such explosions of Nobel’s volatile blasting oil in the United States and across the globe did nothing to settle fears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In response, California seized all private holdings of nitroglycerin and banned its transportation within state bounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> Scores of people were dying around the world, and Nobel became known as the demon of death, and he was a pacifist, you know, and he was devastated that he was being associated with nitroglycerin in that way. So he set out to find a safer form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> For Nobel, the quest to tame nitroglycerin was personal too. His younger brother had died in an explosion at Nobel’s nitroglycerin factory. But the question of how best to stabilize such a volatile and deadly substance was, as of yet, unanswered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> Quite by accident, when nitroglycerin oil spilled and somehow there was this clay nearby. The clay absorbed it and created kind of a putty, and he realized that completely stabilized nitroglycerin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Nobel patented that accidental discovery and named the stabilized nitroglycerin… dynamite. And that’s the story. Dynamite is born and Nobel starts cashing in, his profits from dynamite along with his guilty conscience about its deadly potential eventually motivated him to start the Nobel Prize in the hopes of shifting his legacy from one of destruction to peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, as for when Dynamite made its way to Glen Canyon Park … that comes in 1868, when Nobel gave Julius Bandmann – that brother of a friend from earlier – license to start manufacturing dynamite in the States. Bandmann rallied a group of San Francisco investors around this new innovation and soon founded the Giant Powder Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> The President was a gentleman named L L Robinson and he had invested, along with some other gentleman in the land that included Glen Canyon. He leased to the company four acres of land that today surrounds where today the Glen Park Recreation Center is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> At the time, Glen Canyon Park was pretty barren. A canyon full of cows. But soon enough, Giant Powder started manufacturing dynamite. The factory was run by a handful of chemists and eight Chinese workers who did most of the heavy lifting. And with production in full swing… competitors started cropping up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But America’s first dynamite factory didn’t last very long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[dramatic music, sounds of wind blowing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> It’s November, 1889 and the Chief Chemist of Giant Powder Company, Dr. John Bussenius, is sitting in his cottage with his assistant, Alfred Wartenweiler.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> They just had dinner, the door was open, so it must have been a little bit of a balmy night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> That’s Evelyn Rose again, Glen Park resident and neighborhood historian.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> The Chinese workers were in their cottage having dinner, and they were about to play cards in the cottage. And Charles Cook, the teamster, comes to the door and says, you know, everything’s secure. The horses are stabled. And Wartenweiler, the assistant just happens to look out the door that faces the manufactory, and he sees a fire, and he yells, “Fire!” and he dived for the door… All of a sudden there was this massive explosion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Explosion sound]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And a home 300 yards away was nearly taken off its foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of crackling fire and crumbling structures]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> The site is obliterated. The teamsters wagon has been thrown 150 yards away. Chinese workers were severely burned. Waltenweiler was found 50 yards away under a bunch of lumber. Diving for the door had saved his life. He was injured. But you know, survivable, and it wasn’t until later that they found the burned bodies of Cook and Bussenius. Bussenius was identified—he wore a gold watch, he always had it on, and that was the only way they could identify him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> The exact cause of the explosion remains unknown, but in general there weren’t great safety practices at the time. As for the Chinese workers and how they fared in the aftermath of the explosion, details are sparse. There is however brief mention of the laborer’s outcomes in the pages of the Sacramento Daily Union days after the disaster.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Reading a Newspaper Article:\u003c/strong> “On the ground in the vicinity of the Chinese house were six or seven wounded Chinese men. They were taken in a wagon and conveyed to the city, and are now in a house on Commercial street, above Kearny. Their names are Ah Chum, Ah Chow, Ah Sing, Ah Moy, Ah Gne, and Ah Choy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> I still hope someday to find out more about them, because if we have their names, there should be something. There should be reports in perhaps Chinese newspapers from the time that somebody might be able to research and translate, because I would love to know what their outcomes were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> The story of the Chinese laborers who worked at Glen Canyon Park, producing the first dynamite in the United States, risking limb and life in that effort is one we are still working to piece together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We don’t have personal testimony and there’s little individuality described in the historical record. But in the grand scheme of California industrial history, this oversight is not an anomaly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before Chinese laborers stepped foot in Glen Canyon Park, Chinese Americans already had a storied history with early explosives like nitroglycerin blasting oil and black powder, as they worked to build the Central Pacific Railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music gently fades in]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> And while little is known about Giant Powder Company’s first Chinese workers, recent research has uncovered much about the experience of Chinese railroad workers’ use of early explosives. Understanding that story and context, can help us get a better grip on the contribution of Chinese laborers to dynamite manufacturing in the United States. Which is why I headed over to Stanford’s campus to talk with Roland Hsu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> I’m Director of Research of the project at Stanford University on the Chinese railroad workers in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Roland has spent years digging through the archive, searching for clues in an effort to better understand the experience of Chinese laborers on the railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> So the Chinese were both, were both useful and expendable from the point of view of the construction company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Chinese immigrants originally started coming to California in the mid 19th century. They came with the Gold Rush, with hopes to strike it rich in a new and uncharted land. But they encountered hostile racism, and a lack of legal standing for land claims that made that hope an impossible dream… so they looked elsewhere for work… but they weren’t seen as choice number one for manual labor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> We do know that the Irish workers who were brought in quickly found this to be inhuman conditions. Dropped their pickaxes and shovels and walked off the job\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> With the clock ticking, the Central Pacific Railroad turned to Chinese labor. By the end of construction, they had hired an estimated 20,000 Chinese workers to build a railroad across America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s almost hard to explain just how challenging of a construction project this was. Railroads at that time could only really climb around a 2% grade. But this is the Sierra Nevada range we’re talking about, with its absurdly high granite faces and sheer rock cliffs. And the task was simple: Just tunnel through it all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music, the sounds of pickaxes and loud thuds against stone]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> So by hand. They’re using iron pickaxes, iron bars to just break granite rock. Four men would take a very large, heavy iron bar, slam it in unison into the face of Granite Mountain to carve out small niches, and then [were] instructed to pack it with nitroglycerin, light it and run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been paying attention to this story so far, you know that it doesn’t take much for nitroglycerin to go boom… and worker safety wasn’t a big conversation point in 19th century railroad construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> It is a one of the more evocative stories of the experience of the Chinese who built a railroad to be…. lowered in baskets off of long ropes, you know, hundreds of feet down from the top of a sheer cliff by hand, individually cutting a notch and then packing it with they turn use the term black powder, and then pulling frantically on the rope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Chinese immigrants built the railroad, using these early explosives, but their story and contribution – much like their contribution to dynamite production in Glen Canyon Park – has largely been erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> We have celebrated the Central Pacific line, the transcontinental railroad, we’ve celebrated it on every 50 years as a tremendous feat. Only recently, on the 150th anniversary, did we finally, finally acknowledge, and not only acknowledge but celebrate that it was predominantly Chinese immigrant labor that built this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> While these stories didn’t circulate broadly until recently, tales of the railroad and early explosives did make their way through Chinese communities at the time, especially in California. And, pulling this all back to Glen Canyon Park and the eight Chinese laborers who toiled away at that first factory, we can only imagine that they would have been familiar with this history too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> We are in the realm of speculation only because, consistently, their identities are obscured so we can’t look for their own personal testimony. We can piece together that the story of the experience of constructing the railroad was passed down with extensive detail to their own families, certainly back in the villages, their home villages, many testimonies that would be perpetuated by song so to the extent that They could transmit their story across the Pacific Ocean, perhaps they could transmit it all the way to Glen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> While the factory in Glen Canyon Park lasted a few short years, the American entrance into high explosive production was just beginning. Nascent competition created new and innovative dynamite-like products and Giant Powder Company continued manufacturing Nobel’s creation… just not in Glen Canyon Park. After the initial explosion, the factory moved to the sand dunes near what is now Golden Gate Park. Then, a few years later, it exploded again, and the city kicked all dynamite manufacturers out. That forced them across the Bay, establishing the East Bay dynamite district, stretching out the economic fabric of the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As dynamite manufacturing disappeared from the city, the site of the first factory at Glen Canyon Park began to fade away in the minds and memories of its residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Park sounds fade in… birds, wind, relaxing music begins]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Today, traces of this explosive history are now long gone. The remnants of the dynamite factory are nowhere to be seen and when you walk into Glen Canyon Park, the first thing you see are baseball fields. There are kids, shin guards on, heading to soccer practice. Friends picnicking on the grass. Parents chatting on the playground benches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s nothing that might suggest a memory of anything besides peace… save for the lonesome plaque… and Evelyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> If I’m driving by, walking by, sometimes I’ll sit on the bench and just watch people stop and look at the plaque, and they’re and you can just see them. Their heads go back, you know, they’re puzzled, like what here? And so the fact that you’re interviewing me today because of someone’s experience, just like that, I’m just thrilled you know that the plaque can commemorate that you know, and remember a tragedy did happen here. I mean, it is a recreation area today, but also that we do have this link with Nobel Prizes, you know. So going from destruction to peace, I think is an important connection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big thanks to our question asker Ryan Flynn, and to Seth Lunine, with the Department of Geography at UC Berkeley, who was a helpful resource for this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The holiday season is coming up, and for many of you that means a long car trip to visit friends or family. We’ve created a kid-friendly playlist with some of Bay Curious’s greatest hits for your listening pleasure as you drive. Find it at BayCurious.org, and we’ll drop a link in the show notes too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Flynn:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Jen, Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode. \u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While searching for new hikes to try in San Francisco, Bay Curious listener Ryan Flynn stumbled across a pin on Google Maps for ‘The First Dynamite Factory in America.’ The pin marked a spot in Glen Canyon Park where visitors can find a weathered plaque mounted to a slab of concrete.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012733\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012733\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"An image of a a plaque mounted to a slab of concrete. \" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-03-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A historical landmark for the Giant Powder Company sits at the entrance to Glen Canyon Park in San Francisco. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He wrote into Bay Curious, wanting to learn about the factory’s history. A few clicks down a history rabbit hole, and I found the woman to ask was Evelyn Rose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rose is a pharmacist by training and a passionate community historian who runs the Glen Park Neighborhood History Project. She first stumbled across Glen Park’s dynamite history in the 1927 edition of the \u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_the_Explosives_Industry_in_Am/7SUaAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0\">History of the Explosives Industry in America\u003c/a>\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It [was] a very grainy image of what they claim [was] the site of the first dynamite factory in the United States,” she said. “And as I read the caption, it says the Glen Park playground in San Francisco, and I about fell out of my chair because it’s like, ‘Oh my God, that’s like a block from my house.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That accidental discovery kickstarted a yearslong journey to uncover a hidden history and commemorate it all with a plaque.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012734\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012734\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"A person with short hair stands in a shaded park.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-34-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Evelyn Rose, director and founder of the Glen Park Neighborhoods History Project, stands in Glen Canyon Park in San Francisco on Sept. 6, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Before dynamite, there was nitroglycerin oil\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The story of how dynamite ended up in Glen Canyon Park tracks all the way back to its origins in Europe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nitroglycerin, the highly volatile chemical compound at the center of dynamite, was originally discovered by Italian chemist Ascanio Sobrero in 1846. But when the “oily substance exploded in his face and injured him, he shelved it,” Rose said. Decades later, Swedish chemist Alfred Nobel decided to build on Sobrero’s early experiments. In the 1860s Nobel started manufacturing nitroglycerin at scale and soon developed the blasting cap, a safer detonating mechanism.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012741\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 235px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12012741\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A black and white image of a young man in a suit.\" width=\"235\" height=\"317\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-scaled.jpg 1898w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-800x1079.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1020x1376.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-160x216.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1139x1536.jpg 1139w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1519x2048.jpg 1519w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-3297021-1920x2589.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 235px) 100vw, 235px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Alfred Nobel, aged 20. Private Collection. \u003ccite>(Photo by Fine Art Images/Heritage Images/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>With blasting oil ready to go, Nobel began to search for new markets. California, with its collections of mines and railroad projects, seemed like a perfect match. While Nobel never visited the Golden State, he did have a friend in Paris with a brother, Julius Bandmann, in San Francisco. Bandmann wasted no time promoting California to Nobel as the next nitroglycerin business frontier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rose said Nobel soon licensed nitroglycerin oil to Bandmann, and his company became the exclusive selling agent for it along the Pacific coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In Rose’s telling of the story, that’s where things take a deadly turn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nitroglycerin oil explodes when under pressure or when exposed to spontaneous flame. If you were unfortunate enough to be on a train or ship carrying the stuff, and something went wrong, “you were likely not going to survive,” Rose said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After a series of devastating explosions — including one blast at the Wells Fargo office in downtown San Francisco that catapulted body parts across the city — Nobel’s blasting oil was pulled from shelves. The state of California seized private holdings of nitroglycerin and banned its transportation within the state.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Nobel, it was back to the drawing board. During the course of experimentation, he knocked a beaker of nitroglycerin oil to the ground. When it didn’t explode, he realized he’d found his answer. By absorbing nitroglycerin into silica-rich clay, it “created kind of a putty, and [Nobel] realized that it completely stabilized nitroglycerin,” Rose said. He called the new substance dynamite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012745\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012745\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"A tan box of cigar-like forms.\" width=\"2560\" height=\"2521\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-800x788.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-1020x1004.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-160x158.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-1536x1513.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-2048x2017.jpg 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/GettyImages-600088119-1920x1891.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Nobel’s Extradynamit, found in the collection of Nobelmuseet Stockholm. Artist: Historic Object. \u003ccite>(Photo by Fine Art Images/Heritage Images/Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Dynamite comes to Glen Canyon\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1866, Nobel gave Bandmann an exclusive license to start manufacturing dynamite in the United States. Bandmann rallied a group of investors around the innovation and founded the Giant Powder Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the time, Glen Canyon Park was a pretty barren canyon full of cows. But soon enough, Giant Powder started manufacturing dynamite there. The president of the company had invested in land in Glen Canyon and leased it to the company. The factory was run by a handful of chemists and eight Chinese workers who did most of the heavy lifting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12003601\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12003601\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Map of layout of factory.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/09/240906-DYNAMITE-10-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Evelyn Rose, director and founder of the Glen Park Neighborhoods History Project, holds a possible layout of the Giant Powder Company at Glen Canyon Park in San Francisco on Sept. 6, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The mock-up of the factory’s layout represents years spent piecing together archival clues. Rose has outlined buildings like the shanty that housed Giant Powder Company’s Chinese workers and the pack house where dynamite was manufactured.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch3>A massive explosion levels it all\u003c/h3>\n\u003cp>In November 1869, the chief chemist of Giant Powder Company, Dr. John Bussenius, sat in his cottage with his assistant, Alfred Wartenweiler.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just had dinner. The door was open, so it must have been a little bit of a balmy night,” Rose said. “The Chinese workers were in their cottage having dinner, and they were about to play cards. Charles Cook, the teamster, came to the door and said, ‘Everything’s secure. The horses are stabled.’ Wartenweiler, the assistant, just happens to look out the door that faces the manufactory, and he sees a fire, and he yells, ‘Fire!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He dove for the door, Rose said, and “all of a sudden, there was this massive explosion.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The explosion was so large, a home 300 yards away was nearly taken off its foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The site is obliterated,” Rose said. “The teamsters’ wagon has been thrown 150 yards away. Chinese workers were severely burned. Wartenweiler was found 50 yards away under a bunch of lumber. Diving for the door had saved his life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t until later that they found the burned bodies of Cook and Bussenius.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The exact cause of the explosion remains unknown, but there weren’t great safety practices at the time. As for the Chinese workers and how they fared in the aftermath of the explosion, details are sparse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There is, however, brief mention of the laborer’s outcomes in the pages of the Sacramento Daily Union days after the disaster: “On the ground in the vicinity of the Chinese house were six or seven wounded Chinese men. They were taken in a wagon and conveyed to the city, and are now in a house on Commercial Street, above Kearny. Their names are Ah Chum, Ah Chow, Ah Sing, Ah Moy, Ah Gne, and Ah Choy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>An expanding industry in a growing region\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the site exploded in 1869, most remnants of America’s first dynamite factory disappeared from Glen Canyon Park. But some signs still linger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During our interview, Rose reached into her pocket and pulled out a piece of blue glass, twisted, warped and contorted. Rose believes it might be a fragment from the explosion. She shared a photo of other fragments that have been found.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12012750\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12012750\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"A person with a watch holds an image of blue-colored burned glass.\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/11/240906-Dynamite-13-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Evelyn Rose, director and founder of the Glen Park Neighborhoods History Project, holds photos of burned glass she believes came from the dynamite explosion at the Giant Powder Company in 1869. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>After the disaster, Giant Powder Company moved to the sand dunes near what is now Golden Gate Park, pulling the dynamite industry to the outskirts of the growing city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Seth Lunine, continuing lecturer in the Department of Geography at UC Berkeley, this rapid industrial development represented a key moment in San Francisco’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The desire to circumvent patents led “to a lot of innovation in different types and classes and categories of high explosives,” Lunine said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But in the realm of explosives, innovation often comes hand-in-hand with disaster. Soon enough, Giant Powder Company’s new factory exploded. This — along with explosions at other SF-based factories — was the last straw for San Francisco residents. The city kicked all dynamite manufacturers out, forcing them across the Bay. (Giant Powder Company’s Berkeley factory blew up, too.)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For Lunine, these explosions and relocations still echo through our urban landscape today. Each move expanded “the economic geography of the Bay region,” he said. “Pulling suppliers, pulling chemical works, pulling laborers to the East Bay to create these new factories, and in doing so, sort of stretching out the economic fabric of the Bay region.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While mostly invisible these days, dynamite \u003cem>is\u003c/em> part of this region’s history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re lucky, you might even be able to find a blue-glass souvenir in Glen Canyon Park. But please don’t go digging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’ve been hiking around the Bay Area for more than a decade, and really make a point to try and get to new places – but I know I haven’t even discovered half the hikes this region has to offer. I often find myself turning to online guides and maps to find new trails in this outdoor haven.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But for San Francisco resident Ryan Flynn, the quest to find a perfect new hike took a more… explosive turn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Flynn:\u003c/strong> I was just kind of looking for hikes for my wife and I to do on a weekend. So I was just on Google Maps, and I happened to see a little pin for, like, a historical marker for the first dynamite factory in the United States. And that was very surprising. So I figured I would reach out to you guys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The pin Ryan stumbled across marks the location of California Registered Historical Landmark No. 1002. If you enter Glen Canyon Park from Elk street, you’ll see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> So it’s titled “The first dynamite factory in America. Giant powder company, under personal license of inventor Alfred Nobel, began producing dynamite here on March, 1868. On November 26, 1869 a massive explosion leveled the complexes, buildings and fences. [talking fades under…]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> For Ryan, this all came as a shock. So he sent in this question …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Flynn:\u003c/strong> What is the history behind Glen Canyon Park being the first dynamite factory in the US?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’ve run through Glen Canyon Park a few times and – safe to say – dynamite was not top of mind. But turns out, this peaceful park has a turbulent backstory dating back to the mid 19th century, when Alfred Nobel – yeah like the Nobel Peace Prize – invented dynamite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’ll learn how dynamite made its way to San Francisco … and why it was such a transformative product in this state. Plus, we’ll explore the stories of Chinese laborers who often had the most dangerous jobs of all in the high explosives industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One quick heads up: There are a few gory details about the aftermath of explosions in this episode.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You’re listening to Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To help us answer Ryan’s question about the history of the first dynamite factory in the US, right here in SF’s Glen Canyon Park, we’ve put Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck on the job. To kick off her reporting, she headed over to the park to meet up with one of the people responsible for placing that historical plaque.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of wind and birds chirping in a park]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> I see this piece kind of catch my eye in the dirt by the trail. And I lean down and pick it up, and it’s, it’s blue with kind of the shape of a candy corn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> That’s Evelyn Rose, she’s a long time Glen Park resident, pharmacist by training, and passionate neighborhood historian.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And I’m looking at it and realize, ‘Oh my gosh, this is probably a piece of melted glass from the explosion.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> For Evelyn, her dynamite journey started in the pages of an old book.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And in it is a very grainy image of what they claim is the first — the site of the first dynamite factory in the United States. And as I read the caption, it says the Glen Park playground in San Francisco, and I about fell out of my chair because it’s like, ‘Oh, my God, that’s like a block from my house.’ Had no idea….. and so it started an 11 year journey to discover the history of the dynamite factory and to get the plaque.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> The story of how dynamite made its way to Glen Canyon Park starts in 1860s Sweden… with a young inventor named Alfred Nobel. He was experimenting with nitroglycerin, a highly explosive yet highly unstable chemical compound that just too often went boom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He became the first to start manufacturing the substance on an industrial scale. And when he came up with a safer way to detonate it, California businessmen began to take notice. With their hands tied up in mining and railroad building, — Nobel’s innovations were… intriguing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And through a friend in Paris, whose brother was here in San Francisco… he licensed nitroglycerin oil to the brother of his friend, and the company was called Bandmann & Nielsen, and so they were the exclusive agent selling oil of nitroglycerin along the Pacific coast and this is about 1866.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Soon thereafter, the first crates of nitroglycerin oil arrived in San Francisco. And for California industries, the arrival of Nobel’s blasting oil was transformative.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before nitroglycerin, black powder was America’s main explosive. First brought to California in the late 1840s, when miners started using it in their search for gold, the chalky powder soon became the primary blow-things-up agent in the early California mining and railroad industry. But for more than a handful of construction projects, black powder and a hand chisel just wasn’t going to cut it. And when some of those first crates of nitroglycerin oil arrived at the Central Pacific Railroad, it seemed that Californians might have struck a new kind of gold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of boxes being moved and bottle clinking]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Yet one of the crates from that first shipment had been left behind in San Francisco… in the back room of the Wells Fargo building, among the other unclaimed freight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it was leaking….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Reading Newspaper Clipping:\u003c/strong> “On Monday, 16th, in San Francisco at fifteen minutes past one o’clock, P.M., an explosion took place in the storeroom back of Wells, Fargo & Co.’s building which demolished everything within a circuit of 40 or 50 feet. The explosion was so powerful as to shake the earth like an earthquake for a circuit of a quarter of a mile…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Fragments of human remains were found scattered in many places. A piece of human vertebrae was blown over the buildings on the east side of Montgomery street. A piece of skull was lying on California street, east of Leidsdorff, with other fragments of human remains, and a human arm struck the third story window of the building across the street.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> That’s an excerpt from the pages of The Placer Herald on April 21st, 1866. The nitroglycerin disaster left San Franciscans in a panic, killing at least 15 people and maiming even more. And countless other such explosions of Nobel’s volatile blasting oil in the United States and across the globe did nothing to settle fears.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In response, California seized all private holdings of nitroglycerin and banned its transportation within state bounds.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> Scores of people were dying around the world, and Nobel became known as the demon of death, and he was a pacifist, you know, and he was devastated that he was being associated with nitroglycerin in that way. So he set out to find a safer form.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> For Nobel, the quest to tame nitroglycerin was personal too. His younger brother had died in an explosion at Nobel’s nitroglycerin factory. But the question of how best to stabilize such a volatile and deadly substance was, as of yet, unanswered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> Quite by accident, when nitroglycerin oil spilled and somehow there was this clay nearby. The clay absorbed it and created kind of a putty, and he realized that completely stabilized nitroglycerin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Nobel patented that accidental discovery and named the stabilized nitroglycerin… dynamite. And that’s the story. Dynamite is born and Nobel starts cashing in, his profits from dynamite along with his guilty conscience about its deadly potential eventually motivated him to start the Nobel Prize in the hopes of shifting his legacy from one of destruction to peace.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, as for when Dynamite made its way to Glen Canyon Park … that comes in 1868, when Nobel gave Julius Bandmann – that brother of a friend from earlier – license to start manufacturing dynamite in the States. Bandmann rallied a group of San Francisco investors around this new innovation and soon founded the Giant Powder Company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> The President was a gentleman named L L Robinson and he had invested, along with some other gentleman in the land that included Glen Canyon. He leased to the company four acres of land that today surrounds where today the Glen Park Recreation Center is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> At the time, Glen Canyon Park was pretty barren. A canyon full of cows. But soon enough, Giant Powder started manufacturing dynamite. The factory was run by a handful of chemists and eight Chinese workers who did most of the heavy lifting. And with production in full swing… competitors started cropping up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But America’s first dynamite factory didn’t last very long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[dramatic music, sounds of wind blowing]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> It’s November, 1889 and the Chief Chemist of Giant Powder Company, Dr. John Bussenius, is sitting in his cottage with his assistant, Alfred Wartenweiler.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> They just had dinner, the door was open, so it must have been a little bit of a balmy night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> That’s Evelyn Rose again, Glen Park resident and neighborhood historian.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> The Chinese workers were in their cottage having dinner, and they were about to play cards in the cottage. And Charles Cook, the teamster, comes to the door and says, you know, everything’s secure. The horses are stabled. And Wartenweiler, the assistant just happens to look out the door that faces the manufactory, and he sees a fire, and he yells, “Fire!” and he dived for the door… All of a sudden there was this massive explosion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Explosion sound]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> And a home 300 yards away was nearly taken off its foundation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[sounds of crackling fire and crumbling structures]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> The site is obliterated. The teamsters wagon has been thrown 150 yards away. Chinese workers were severely burned. Waltenweiler was found 50 yards away under a bunch of lumber. Diving for the door had saved his life. He was injured. But you know, survivable, and it wasn’t until later that they found the burned bodies of Cook and Bussenius. Bussenius was identified—he wore a gold watch, he always had it on, and that was the only way they could identify him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> The exact cause of the explosion remains unknown, but in general there weren’t great safety practices at the time. As for the Chinese workers and how they fared in the aftermath of the explosion, details are sparse. There is however brief mention of the laborer’s outcomes in the pages of the Sacramento Daily Union days after the disaster.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Reading a Newspaper Article:\u003c/strong> “On the ground in the vicinity of the Chinese house were six or seven wounded Chinese men. They were taken in a wagon and conveyed to the city, and are now in a house on Commercial street, above Kearny. Their names are Ah Chum, Ah Chow, Ah Sing, Ah Moy, Ah Gne, and Ah Choy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> I still hope someday to find out more about them, because if we have their names, there should be something. There should be reports in perhaps Chinese newspapers from the time that somebody might be able to research and translate, because I would love to know what their outcomes were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> The story of the Chinese laborers who worked at Glen Canyon Park, producing the first dynamite in the United States, risking limb and life in that effort is one we are still working to piece together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We don’t have personal testimony and there’s little individuality described in the historical record. But in the grand scheme of California industrial history, this oversight is not an anomaly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before Chinese laborers stepped foot in Glen Canyon Park, Chinese Americans already had a storied history with early explosives like nitroglycerin blasting oil and black powder, as they worked to build the Central Pacific Railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music gently fades in]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> And while little is known about Giant Powder Company’s first Chinese workers, recent research has uncovered much about the experience of Chinese railroad workers’ use of early explosives. Understanding that story and context, can help us get a better grip on the contribution of Chinese laborers to dynamite manufacturing in the United States. Which is why I headed over to Stanford’s campus to talk with Roland Hsu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> I’m Director of Research of the project at Stanford University on the Chinese railroad workers in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Roland has spent years digging through the archive, searching for clues in an effort to better understand the experience of Chinese laborers on the railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> So the Chinese were both, were both useful and expendable from the point of view of the construction company.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Chinese immigrants originally started coming to California in the mid 19th century. They came with the Gold Rush, with hopes to strike it rich in a new and uncharted land. But they encountered hostile racism, and a lack of legal standing for land claims that made that hope an impossible dream… so they looked elsewhere for work… but they weren’t seen as choice number one for manual labor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> We do know that the Irish workers who were brought in quickly found this to be inhuman conditions. Dropped their pickaxes and shovels and walked off the job\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> With the clock ticking, the Central Pacific Railroad turned to Chinese labor. By the end of construction, they had hired an estimated 20,000 Chinese workers to build a railroad across America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s almost hard to explain just how challenging of a construction project this was. Railroads at that time could only really climb around a 2% grade. But this is the Sierra Nevada range we’re talking about, with its absurdly high granite faces and sheer rock cliffs. And the task was simple: Just tunnel through it all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music, the sounds of pickaxes and loud thuds against stone]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> So by hand. They’re using iron pickaxes, iron bars to just break granite rock. Four men would take a very large, heavy iron bar, slam it in unison into the face of Granite Mountain to carve out small niches, and then [were] instructed to pack it with nitroglycerin, light it and run.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> If you’ve been paying attention to this story so far, you know that it doesn’t take much for nitroglycerin to go boom… and worker safety wasn’t a big conversation point in 19th century railroad construction.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> It is a one of the more evocative stories of the experience of the Chinese who built a railroad to be…. lowered in baskets off of long ropes, you know, hundreds of feet down from the top of a sheer cliff by hand, individually cutting a notch and then packing it with they turn use the term black powder, and then pulling frantically on the rope.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Chinese immigrants built the railroad, using these early explosives, but their story and contribution – much like their contribution to dynamite production in Glen Canyon Park – has largely been erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> We have celebrated the Central Pacific line, the transcontinental railroad, we’ve celebrated it on every 50 years as a tremendous feat. Only recently, on the 150th anniversary, did we finally, finally acknowledge, and not only acknowledge but celebrate that it was predominantly Chinese immigrant labor that built this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> While these stories didn’t circulate broadly until recently, tales of the railroad and early explosives did make their way through Chinese communities at the time, especially in California. And, pulling this all back to Glen Canyon Park and the eight Chinese laborers who toiled away at that first factory, we can only imagine that they would have been familiar with this history too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roland Hsu:\u003c/strong> We are in the realm of speculation only because, consistently, their identities are obscured so we can’t look for their own personal testimony. We can piece together that the story of the experience of constructing the railroad was passed down with extensive detail to their own families, certainly back in the villages, their home villages, many testimonies that would be perpetuated by song so to the extent that They could transmit their story across the Pacific Ocean, perhaps they could transmit it all the way to Glen Park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> While the factory in Glen Canyon Park lasted a few short years, the American entrance into high explosive production was just beginning. Nascent competition created new and innovative dynamite-like products and Giant Powder Company continued manufacturing Nobel’s creation… just not in Glen Canyon Park. After the initial explosion, the factory moved to the sand dunes near what is now Golden Gate Park. Then, a few years later, it exploded again, and the city kicked all dynamite manufacturers out. That forced them across the Bay, establishing the East Bay dynamite district, stretching out the economic fabric of the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As dynamite manufacturing disappeared from the city, the site of the first factory at Glen Canyon Park began to fade away in the minds and memories of its residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Park sounds fade in… birds, wind, relaxing music begins]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck:\u003c/strong> Today, traces of this explosive history are now long gone. The remnants of the dynamite factory are nowhere to be seen and when you walk into Glen Canyon Park, the first thing you see are baseball fields. There are kids, shin guards on, heading to soccer practice. Friends picnicking on the grass. Parents chatting on the playground benches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s nothing that might suggest a memory of anything besides peace… save for the lonesome plaque… and Evelyn.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Evelyn Rose:\u003c/strong> If I’m driving by, walking by, sometimes I’ll sit on the bench and just watch people stop and look at the plaque, and they’re and you can just see them. Their heads go back, you know, they’re puzzled, like what here? And so the fact that you’re interviewing me today because of someone’s experience, just like that, I’m just thrilled you know that the plaque can commemorate that you know, and remember a tragedy did happen here. I mean, it is a recreation area today, but also that we do have this link with Nobel Prizes, you know. So going from destruction to peace, I think is an important connection.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Big thanks to our question asker Ryan Flynn, and to Seth Lunine, with the Department of Geography at UC Berkeley, who was a helpful resource for this story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The holiday season is coming up, and for many of you that means a long car trip to visit friends or family. We’ve created a kid-friendly playlist with some of Bay Curious’s greatest hits for your listening pleasure as you drive. Find it at BayCurious.org, and we’ll drop a link in the show notes too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ryan Flynn:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Jen, Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are a number of spaces around the Bay Area that attract ghost hunters … people who don’t run away from things that go bump in the night — but rather seek them out. One of those hot spots is floating in Alameda: the USS Hornet, a massive retired aircraft carrier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, the Hornet carried thousands of crewmen and more than a hundred aircraft as it battled around the Pacific. And decades later, the Hornet picked up American astronauts after splashdown following two of the moon landings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But fascinating history aside, the USS Hornet is also said to be haunted and offers overnight tours. Paranormal enthusiasts from near and far come to spend the night in the original sailors’ bunks and set up ghost-detecting instruments in some of the ship’s deepest compartments. To find out more, Bay Curious tagged along on a recent tour with about ten other thrill seekers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Unsettling Encounters\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the Hornet’s sick bay, rows of WWII-era hospital beds with white sheets and metal frames stretched back into shadowed corners. Faye Navarro, private events manager on the USS Hornet, placed a small, coffin-shaped box on one of the beds: a motion-detecting music box used to sense the presence of spirits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011402\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A group of people walk around on a ship.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tour guide, Faye Navarro, left, leads a group of participants on a History Mystery Tour on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When you’re looking down, and this thing is going off, and you don’t see anybody, it gets creepy,” Navarro said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s something particular about this place,” her fellow tour guide Steve Jackson said. He’s been to other spaces rumored to be haunted, like the Winchester Mystery House, but he believes the USS Hornet is exceptionally full of ghosts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not just the spirits that were here when the ship was active,” Jackson said. “They’re spirits from all over the place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To communicate with them, Jackson and Navarro used pendulums, dowsing rods, and even Maglite flashlights, which they unscrew just enough so that they were turned off and then lay on the floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The theory is the spirits are able to bridge the gap between the battery and the light to be able to answer questions,” Jackson said. “But sadly, they can only answer yes or no questions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is there more than one spirit in here?” Jackson called out into the darkness of the sick bay. The flashlight stayed off, indicating a “no” answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011397\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011397\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man squats down with a measuring instrument in a red-lit room, as two other people watch.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tour guide, Steve Jackson, center, sets up a radiating electromagneticity (REM) pod used to detect paranormal activity during a History Mystery Tour on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Is it just you that’s in here?” he asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside label=\"more Bay Curious stories\" tag=\"bay-curious\"]And the flashlight winked on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the nearby surgery room, guest Ashley Juarez Bilow climbed onto the operating table, next to a tray of old surgical instruments … and felt something gripping her foot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It didn’t feel like a bad entity,” Juarez Bilow said. “Felt like someone caring for me, like when your mother looks at your knee when you have a boo-boo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Deeper inside the ship, in a big metal room with pipes running across the ceiling, guest Zaniah Velazquez felt the presence of her late mother. She said she often feels spirits around her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been like that all my life,” she said. “I’m very sensitive to stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Velazquez said she had an especially creepy experience the first time she spent the night on the USS Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011400\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Several people stand in a dark, tight enclosure.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Participants of the History Mystery Tour look into jail cells on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I felt something get on top of me. It wouldn’t let me move. And I started praying,” she said. “I felt it get up off of me. When I turned around, that’s when I seen it pass by. I seen a black shadow pass by,” Velazquez said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As midnight approached, the group walked carefully through the pitch black, even deeper into the heart of the ship. In Radio Central, a small room with walls covered in knobs and switches, the electromagnetic field (EMF) sensors lit up and the flashlights flickered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011392\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011392\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A woman lying down under a lamp.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Liz Gibbons, left, monitors for spirits as Hira Zahir, right, lays on the operating table inside the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Did you guys see that little orb?” Velazquez said. “I seen something pass by. Like a little ball of light.”Around midnight, the guides left, and the rest of the guests got ready to spend the night in the sailors’ sleeping compartments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Juarez Bilow brought her Ouija board and tarot cards. She hoped to run into more spirits … but wasn’t afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011401\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a red-lit room holds a small pendulum, while a woman sits next to him watching.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">History Mystery Tour guide Faye Navarro, left, watches as her co-guide, Steve Jackson, uses a pendulum to communicate with spirits on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011393\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011393\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Old-fashioned operating tools on metal table.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Operating tools on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Because entities, if you don’t interact with them, they generally leave you alone,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USS Hornet holds paranormal overnight adventure tours about once a month. To find out more, go to their website at uss-hornet.org. And if sleeping on a ship brimming with ghosts isn’t your thing, they also have daytime tours and overnights that focus on the ship’s history — and are presumably way less spooky.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011388\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011388\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A ramp leading up to a ship.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The ramp to the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. The ship is open after hours for the History Mystery Tours that run throughout the year. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>There’s a number of spaces around the Bay Area that attract ghost hunters … people who don’t run away from things that go bump in the night — but rather, seek them out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of those hot spots is floating in Alameda….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>(large ship rocks and creaks while the sound of water can be heard)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>It’s the massive retired aircraft carrier — the USS Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During WWII, the Hornet carried thousands of crewmen, and more than a hundred aircraft, as it battled around the Pacific. And decades later, the Hornet picked up American astronauts after splashdown following two of the moon landings!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of history to this place, but today, we’re putting that all aside. Because it’s Halloween, after all. So, instead of \u003ci>history, \u003c/i>we’re going into the \u003ci>mystery.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USS Hornet is said to be haunted. So today on the show, we’re tagging along on an after-hours tour to see what paranormal activity we can find.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>It’s a Friday night, around sunset and KQED reporter Katherine Monahan is climbing aboard the USS Hornet in Alameda with ten other curious guests. Many of these are experienced ghost hunters who have brought their own ghost-detecting instruments for tonight’s activities. Just as the sun dips below the horizon, the intrepid team heads into the dark, steely depths of the ship…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sounds of people moving around onboard the ship]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>We’re gonna go ahead and walk this way. Watch your step\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Docent and paranormal investigator Faye Navarro leads us by flashlight through echoing metal hallways, past pitch-black rooms filled with old naval equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Watch your head, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>We step into the Hornet’s sick bay, where wounded crewmembers would have been treated … and where likely some of them died. Rows of WWII-era hospital beds with white sheets and metal frames stretch back into shadowed corners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Navarro places a small, coffin-shaped box on one of the beds. A piece of equipment she’s calibrating so we can use it to sense the presence of spirits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>This is our motion detective, uh, music box. We’ll calibrate the space … \u003ci>[a small music box plays a high-pitched tune]\u003c/i> … When you’re looking down, and this thing is going off, and you don’t see anybody, it gets creepy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Navarro’s partner, Steve Jackson, takes out two little mag flashlights — the kind where you twist the top to turn them on and off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He unscrews them just enough so that they’re off and sets them on the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>The theory is the spirits are able to bridge the gap between the battery and the light to be able to answer questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And they start talking to ghosts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>Is there more than one spirit in here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The flashlight stays off, indicating a no-answer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>Is it just you that’s in here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And it comes on\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>Thank you, can you turn the flashlight off please?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b> … and it goes back off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>There’s something particular about this place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Jackson has been to other spaces that are known as haunted — like the Winchester Mystery House. But he says the USS Hornet is exceptionally full of ghosts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>They’re not just the spirits that were here when the ship was active. They’re spirits from all over the place. I mean, the spirit will come with somebody, and it’ll stay, or a spirit will leave with somebody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Nearby is the surgery room, with an operating table for the patient and a tray of old instruments for the doctor. A single surgical lamp spotlights the bed — the only light in this otherwise dark room. One of the guests, Ashley Juarez Bilow, climbs on, lays down, and reaches out to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow:\u003c/b> Doctor, could you please check my leg? My right leg? (pause) Oh, it feels like my foot is being held right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>She says it’s not a frightening feeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow: \u003c/b>I felt like my foot was being gripped, like held on to. It didn’t feel like a bad entity. Felt like someone caring for me and checking something out, like when your mother looks at your knee when you have a boo-boo kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>She says she’s kind of used to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow:\u003c/b> I’ve been into it since I was about 13. I used to go to my local cemetery with my Ouija board and go talk to the spirits over there. I was a little bit of a weird kid, so I liked the paranormal. I liked the supernatural. I believe in all of it. I believe your spirit can stay on this earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Our guides, Navarro and Jackson, lead us on through the dark, up a metal staircase so narrow it’s more of a ladder. We peer through doorways at dusty pieces of the past: sonar buoy casings and old radio equipment. We come to a big, open room with pipes running across the ceiling. And here, we’re introduced to a new means of communication with the spirit world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Has anybody heard of or seen a Human Pendulum?\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>Human what?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro:\u003c/b> Pendulum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest:\u003c/b> Is that the wires that cross?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>No. This is with people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>They ask for a volunteer to stand in the middle of the room and just allow their body to go loose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>So Spirits, we have a new friend here that is willing to be your, um, talking board, so to speak. So if you can touch her lightly and show us what your yes answer will be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The volunteer leans slightly forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro:\u003c/b> Forward is a yes. Okay, can you show us what your no answer is going to be, please? (pause) Yep, backwards. Okay, Spirit, that we’re talking to right now, Are you a crew member? (pause) No. Okay. Is this your first time on the ship? (pause) Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And this is when Zaniah Velazquez, another guest, starts to feel she knows who this is. She reaches out in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>Eres tu Mama?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro:\u003c/b> Yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>I asked her, ‘Is it you, mom?’ Because my mom passed away, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>We got a yes. It went forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b> Estas aqui ma?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b> I love you mama.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Velazquez lost her mother three years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>I’ve lost a lot of friends and family members. But I feel her presence, always. And my friends. They’re always around. But she’s there to protect me. You know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>She says she often feels spirits around her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>I’ve been like that all my life. I’m very sensitive to stuff. As soon as I came in the ship, I started feeling like, uh, like I went outside and, you know, started talking. Like, you know, I’m just like, I come in peace. Like, don’t follow me home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It can be unsettling, she says. Sometimes, she even gets nauseous, overwhelmed. But all in all, she says, it’s fun, and she keeps coming back for more. This is actually her fifth time on the tour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: The first, first day we spent the night here. It was creepy to me because I felt something get on top of me. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[eerie music plays]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>It wouldn’t let me move. And I started praying. Once I started praying, that’s when I felt it. I felt it leave. And then it came back again the second time. And then I was like, oh man, that’s when I really, like, started, like I was praying in Spanish. That’s when I, you know, I felt it get up off of me when I turned around. That’s when I see, I seen it pass by. I seen a black shadow pass by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[sounds of people walking around]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It’s almost midnight now and getting cold. We walk — carefully, it’s pitch black — even deeper into the heart of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>This is Radio Central. This is one of the secretest places on the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The walls of this small room are covered with knobs and switches. Jackson and Navarro set up their equipment — including a temperature sensor that beeps if the air gets abruptly colder. They lay the flashlights on the ground, and immediately they start winking on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Okay, can you turn that flashlight off for us, please? Thank you. Did you follow us from the other space? \u003ci>[device beeps] \u003c/i>A temperature change? Mm hmm. It got colder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>That wasn’t my stomach either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherin Monahan: \u003c/b>I did hear it. Uh-huh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And then Velazquez sees something\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez:\u003c/b> Did you guys see that little orb? Mm mm. I seen something pass by. Like a little ball of light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Outside?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>Yeah, outside the door. I seen it go that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>BEAT / MUSIC / CREEPY SOUNDS\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Around midnight, the guides leave, and the rest of the guests get ready to spend the night in the original sailors’ sleeping compartments. Ashley Juarez Bilow — the one who felt the doctor touch her foot on the operating table — has her ouija board and tarot cards. She’s with her husband, and she’s hoping to communicate with his late mother — whom she sensed earlier in one of the rooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow: \u003c/b>I have a feeling that it might be her. So I want to ask questions to see if she’s here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Her husband, David Juarez Bilow, is more of a skeptic but happy to be here with his wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Juarez Bilow: \u003c/b>I find these cool places that say that they’re haunted, because I know that she likes it, I just bring her along. I mean, happy wife, happy life, right? (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As he goes to get some snacks from the vending machine, Ashley says that she expects to run into more spirits tonight but … she’s not afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow:\u003c/b> Because entities, if you don’t interact with them, they generally leave you alone. I learned that in the cemeteries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Solid advice … if you want to come spend the night on the USS Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just crawl into a nice WWII-era metal cot, close your eyes, and see what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>MUSIC BOX MUSIC\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was KQED reporter Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USS Hornet holds paranormal overnight adventure tours about once a month. To find out more, go to their website at uss-hornet.org. And if sleeping on a ship brimming with ghosts isn’t your thing, they, of course, have daytime tours and also overnights that focus on the ship’s history — and are presumably way less spooky. Presumably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Jen, Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Nighty Night!\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"title": "The USS Hornet in Alameda Is a Destination for Paranormal Enthusiasts — and You Can Spend the Night There | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are a number of spaces around the Bay Area that attract ghost hunters … people who don’t run away from things that go bump in the night — but rather seek them out. One of those hot spots is floating in Alameda: the USS Hornet, a massive retired aircraft carrier.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, the Hornet carried thousands of crewmen and more than a hundred aircraft as it battled around the Pacific. And decades later, the Hornet picked up American astronauts after splashdown following two of the moon landings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But fascinating history aside, the USS Hornet is also said to be haunted and offers overnight tours. Paranormal enthusiasts from near and far come to spend the night in the original sailors’ bunks and set up ghost-detecting instruments in some of the ship’s deepest compartments. To find out more, Bay Curious tagged along on a recent tour with about ten other thrill seekers.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Unsettling Encounters\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the Hornet’s sick bay, rows of WWII-era hospital beds with white sheets and metal frames stretched back into shadowed corners. Faye Navarro, private events manager on the USS Hornet, placed a small, coffin-shaped box on one of the beds: a motion-detecting music box used to sense the presence of spirits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011402\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A group of people walk around on a ship.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/29_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_362-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tour guide, Faye Navarro, left, leads a group of participants on a History Mystery Tour on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“When you’re looking down, and this thing is going off, and you don’t see anybody, it gets creepy,” Navarro said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s something particular about this place,” her fellow tour guide Steve Jackson said. He’s been to other spaces rumored to be haunted, like the Winchester Mystery House, but he believes the USS Hornet is exceptionally full of ghosts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re not just the spirits that were here when the ship was active,” Jackson said. “They’re spirits from all over the place.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To communicate with them, Jackson and Navarro used pendulums, dowsing rods, and even Maglite flashlights, which they unscrew just enough so that they were turned off and then lay on the floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The theory is the spirits are able to bridge the gap between the battery and the light to be able to answer questions,” Jackson said. “But sadly, they can only answer yes or no questions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Is there more than one spirit in here?” Jackson called out into the darkness of the sick bay. The flashlight stayed off, indicating a “no” answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011397\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011397\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man squats down with a measuring instrument in a red-lit room, as two other people watch.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/21_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_205-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tour guide, Steve Jackson, center, sets up a radiating electromagneticity (REM) pod used to detect paranormal activity during a History Mystery Tour on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Is it just you that’s in here?” he asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>And the flashlight winked on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the nearby surgery room, guest Ashley Juarez Bilow climbed onto the operating table, next to a tray of old surgical instruments … and felt something gripping her foot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It didn’t feel like a bad entity,” Juarez Bilow said. “Felt like someone caring for me, like when your mother looks at your knee when you have a boo-boo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Deeper inside the ship, in a big metal room with pipes running across the ceiling, guest Zaniah Velazquez felt the presence of her late mother. She said she often feels spirits around her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been like that all my life,” she said. “I’m very sensitive to stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Velazquez said she had an especially creepy experience the first time she spent the night on the USS Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011400\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Several people stand in a dark, tight enclosure.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/26_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_318-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Participants of the History Mystery Tour look into jail cells on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I felt something get on top of me. It wouldn’t let me move. And I started praying,” she said. “I felt it get up off of me. When I turned around, that’s when I seen it pass by. I seen a black shadow pass by,” Velazquez said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As midnight approached, the group walked carefully through the pitch black, even deeper into the heart of the ship. In Radio Central, a small room with walls covered in knobs and switches, the electromagnetic field (EMF) sensors lit up and the flashlights flickered.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011392\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011392\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A woman lying down under a lamp.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/09_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_095-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Liz Gibbons, left, monitors for spirits as Hira Zahir, right, lays on the operating table inside the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Did you guys see that little orb?” Velazquez said. “I seen something pass by. Like a little ball of light.”Around midnight, the guides left, and the rest of the guests got ready to spend the night in the sailors’ sleeping compartments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Juarez Bilow brought her Ouija board and tarot cards. She hoped to run into more spirits … but wasn’t afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011401\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in a red-lit room holds a small pendulum, while a woman sits next to him watching.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/28_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_331-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">History Mystery Tour guide Faye Navarro, left, watches as her co-guide, Steve Jackson, uses a pendulum to communicate with spirits on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011393\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011393\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Old-fashioned operating tools on metal table.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/11_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_099-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Operating tools on the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Because entities, if you don’t interact with them, they generally leave you alone,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USS Hornet holds paranormal overnight adventure tours about once a month. To find out more, go to their website at uss-hornet.org. And if sleeping on a ship brimming with ghosts isn’t your thing, they also have daytime tours and overnights that focus on the ship’s history — and are presumably way less spooky.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12011388\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12011388\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A ramp leading up to a ship.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/10/06_20241025_USSHORNET_MIDDLETON_050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The ramp to the USS Hornet in Alameda on Oct. 25, 2024. The ship is open after hours for the History Mystery Tours that run throughout the year. \u003ccite>(Florence Middleton for KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>There’s a number of spaces around the Bay Area that attract ghost hunters … people who don’t run away from things that go bump in the night — but rather, seek them out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And one of those hot spots is floating in Alameda….\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>(large ship rocks and creaks while the sound of water can be heard)\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>It’s the massive retired aircraft carrier — the USS Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During WWII, the Hornet carried thousands of crewmen, and more than a hundred aircraft, as it battled around the Pacific. And decades later, the Hornet picked up American astronauts after splashdown following two of the moon landings!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a lot of history to this place, but today, we’re putting that all aside. Because it’s Halloween, after all. So, instead of \u003ci>history, \u003c/i>we’re going into the \u003ci>mystery.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USS Hornet is said to be haunted. So today on the show, we’re tagging along on an after-hours tour to see what paranormal activity we can find.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>It’s a Friday night, around sunset and KQED reporter Katherine Monahan is climbing aboard the USS Hornet in Alameda with ten other curious guests. Many of these are experienced ghost hunters who have brought their own ghost-detecting instruments for tonight’s activities. Just as the sun dips below the horizon, the intrepid team heads into the dark, steely depths of the ship…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sounds of people moving around onboard the ship]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>We’re gonna go ahead and walk this way. Watch your step\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/b> Docent and paranormal investigator Faye Navarro leads us by flashlight through echoing metal hallways, past pitch-black rooms filled with old naval equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Watch your head, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>We step into the Hornet’s sick bay, where wounded crewmembers would have been treated … and where likely some of them died. Rows of WWII-era hospital beds with white sheets and metal frames stretch back into shadowed corners.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Navarro places a small, coffin-shaped box on one of the beds. A piece of equipment she’s calibrating so we can use it to sense the presence of spirits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>This is our motion detective, uh, music box. We’ll calibrate the space … \u003ci>[a small music box plays a high-pitched tune]\u003c/i> … When you’re looking down, and this thing is going off, and you don’t see anybody, it gets creepy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Navarro’s partner, Steve Jackson, takes out two little mag flashlights — the kind where you twist the top to turn them on and off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He unscrews them just enough so that they’re off and sets them on the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>The theory is the spirits are able to bridge the gap between the battery and the light to be able to answer questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And they start talking to ghosts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>Is there more than one spirit in here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The flashlight stays off, indicating a no-answer\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>Is it just you that’s in here?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And it comes on\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>Thank you, can you turn the flashlight off please?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b> … and it goes back off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>There’s something particular about this place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Jackson has been to other spaces that are known as haunted — like the Winchester Mystery House. But he says the USS Hornet is exceptionally full of ghosts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>They’re not just the spirits that were here when the ship was active. They’re spirits from all over the place. I mean, the spirit will come with somebody, and it’ll stay, or a spirit will leave with somebody.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Nearby is the surgery room, with an operating table for the patient and a tray of old instruments for the doctor. A single surgical lamp spotlights the bed — the only light in this otherwise dark room. One of the guests, Ashley Juarez Bilow, climbs on, lays down, and reaches out to the past.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow:\u003c/b> Doctor, could you please check my leg? My right leg? (pause) Oh, it feels like my foot is being held right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>She says it’s not a frightening feeling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow: \u003c/b>I felt like my foot was being gripped, like held on to. It didn’t feel like a bad entity. Felt like someone caring for me and checking something out, like when your mother looks at your knee when you have a boo-boo kind of thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>She says she’s kind of used to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow:\u003c/b> I’ve been into it since I was about 13. I used to go to my local cemetery with my Ouija board and go talk to the spirits over there. I was a little bit of a weird kid, so I liked the paranormal. I liked the supernatural. I believe in all of it. I believe your spirit can stay on this earth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Our guides, Navarro and Jackson, lead us on through the dark, up a metal staircase so narrow it’s more of a ladder. We peer through doorways at dusty pieces of the past: sonar buoy casings and old radio equipment. We come to a big, open room with pipes running across the ceiling. And here, we’re introduced to a new means of communication with the spirit world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Has anybody heard of or seen a Human Pendulum?\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest: \u003c/b>Human what?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro:\u003c/b> Pendulum.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Guest:\u003c/b> Is that the wires that cross?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>No. This is with people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>They ask for a volunteer to stand in the middle of the room and just allow their body to go loose.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>So Spirits, we have a new friend here that is willing to be your, um, talking board, so to speak. So if you can touch her lightly and show us what your yes answer will be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The volunteer leans slightly forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro:\u003c/b> Forward is a yes. Okay, can you show us what your no answer is going to be, please? (pause) Yep, backwards. Okay, Spirit, that we’re talking to right now, Are you a crew member? (pause) No. Okay. Is this your first time on the ship? (pause) Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And this is when Zaniah Velazquez, another guest, starts to feel she knows who this is. She reaches out in Spanish.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>Eres tu Mama?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro:\u003c/b> Yes\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>I asked her, ‘Is it you, mom?’ Because my mom passed away, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>We got a yes. It went forward.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b> Estas aqui ma?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Yes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b> I love you mama.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Velazquez lost her mother three years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>I’ve lost a lot of friends and family members. But I feel her presence, always. And my friends. They’re always around. But she’s there to protect me. You know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>She says she often feels spirits around her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>I’ve been like that all my life. I’m very sensitive to stuff. As soon as I came in the ship, I started feeling like, uh, like I went outside and, you know, started talking. Like, you know, I’m just like, I come in peace. Like, don’t follow me home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It can be unsettling, she says. Sometimes, she even gets nauseous, overwhelmed. But all in all, she says, it’s fun, and she keeps coming back for more. This is actually her fifth time on the tour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: The first, first day we spent the night here. It was creepy to me because I felt something get on top of me. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[eerie music plays]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>It wouldn’t let me move. And I started praying. Once I started praying, that’s when I felt it. I felt it leave. And then it came back again the second time. And then I was like, oh man, that’s when I really, like, started, like I was praying in Spanish. That’s when I, you know, I felt it get up off of me when I turned around. That’s when I see, I seen it pass by. I seen a black shadow pass by.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>[sounds of people walking around]\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>It’s almost midnight now and getting cold. We walk — carefully, it’s pitch black — even deeper into the heart of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>This is Radio Central. This is one of the secretest places on the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>The walls of this small room are covered with knobs and switches. Jackson and Navarro set up their equipment — including a temperature sensor that beeps if the air gets abruptly colder. They lay the flashlights on the ground, and immediately they start winking on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Okay, can you turn that flashlight off for us, please? Thank you. Did you follow us from the other space? \u003ci>[device beeps] \u003c/i>A temperature change? Mm hmm. It got colder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Jackson: \u003c/b>That wasn’t my stomach either.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherin Monahan: \u003c/b>I did hear it. Uh-huh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>And then Velazquez sees something\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez:\u003c/b> Did you guys see that little orb? Mm mm. I seen something pass by. Like a little ball of light.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Faye Navarro: \u003c/b>Outside?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Zaniah Velazquez: \u003c/b>Yeah, outside the door. I seen it go that way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>BEAT / MUSIC / CREEPY SOUNDS\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Around midnight, the guides leave, and the rest of the guests get ready to spend the night in the original sailors’ sleeping compartments. Ashley Juarez Bilow — the one who felt the doctor touch her foot on the operating table — has her ouija board and tarot cards. She’s with her husband, and she’s hoping to communicate with his late mother — whom she sensed earlier in one of the rooms.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow: \u003c/b>I have a feeling that it might be her. So I want to ask questions to see if she’s here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Her husband, David Juarez Bilow, is more of a skeptic but happy to be here with his wife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Juarez Bilow: \u003c/b>I find these cool places that say that they’re haunted, because I know that she likes it, I just bring her along. I mean, happy wife, happy life, right? (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>As he goes to get some snacks from the vending machine, Ashley says that she expects to run into more spirits tonight but … she’s not afraid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ashley Juarez Bilow:\u003c/b> Because entities, if you don’t interact with them, they generally leave you alone. I learned that in the cemeteries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/b>Solid advice … if you want to come spend the night on the USS Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just crawl into a nice WWII-era metal cot, close your eyes, and see what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>MUSIC BOX MUSIC\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>That was KQED reporter Katherine Monahan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The USS Hornet holds paranormal overnight adventure tours about once a month. To find out more, go to their website at uss-hornet.org. And if sleeping on a ship brimming with ghosts isn’t your thing, they, of course, have daytime tours and also overnights that focus on the ship’s history — and are presumably way less spooky. Presumably.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Jen, Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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