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Her other passions are crafts (now done in collaboration with her daughter) and the Brazilian martial art of capoeira.","avatar":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/95001c30374b0d3878007af9cf1e120a?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twitter":"pbartolone","facebook":null,"instagram":null,"linkedin":null,"sites":[{"site":"news","roles":["editor"]},{"site":"podcasts","roles":["subscriber"]}],"headData":{"title":"Pauline Bartolone | KQED","description":"KQED Contributor","ogImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/95001c30374b0d3878007af9cf1e120a?s=600&d=blank&r=g","twImgSrc":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/95001c30374b0d3878007af9cf1e120a?s=600&d=blank&r=g"},"isLoading":false,"link":"/author/pbartolone"}},"breakingNewsReducer":{},"campaignFinanceReducer":{},"pagesReducer":{},"postsReducer":{"stream_live":{"type":"live","id":"stream_live","audioUrl":"https://streams.kqed.org/kqedradio","title":"Live Stream","excerpt":"Live Stream information currently unavailable.","link":"/radio","featImg":"","label":{"name":"KQED Live","link":"/"}},"stream_kqedNewscast":{"type":"posts","id":"stream_kqedNewscast","audioUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/.stream/anon/radio/RDnews/newscast.mp3?_=1","title":"KQED Newscast","featImg":"","label":{"name":"88.5 FM","link":"/"}},"news_11808501":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11808501","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11808501","score":null,"sort":[1726048819000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"does-mount-diablo-have-the-biggest-view-in-the-world","title":"Does Mount Diablo Have the Biggest View in the World?","publishDate":1726048819,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Does Mount Diablo Have the Biggest View in the World? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published March 26, 2020. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Diablo is one of the Bay Area’s grandest landmarks and often the first glimpse of home you might see after a long drive. The mountain sits on the eastern edge of the Bay Area, in Contra Costa County, and its peak is visible from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, Mount Diablo stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years ago, listener Mark Isaak heard a rumor about the view from Mount Diablo’s summit: “I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land — not just ocean, but actual land — is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro. But that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Taking in the View\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The view when you come up here is really amazing,” says Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter. “How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate, but I’m partial to the view from Mount Diablo, and I think most people are pretty amazed by it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the Mount Diablo Summit Museum and trailhead viewing deck, Peterson says that 40 of California’s 58 counties are visible on a clear day. As little as 1% of some counties can be seen, but still, it’s an impressive tally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808512\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11808512\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"585\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-160x117.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1020x746.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1920x1404.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter, gets to marvel at Mount Diablo’s view regularly. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You can see the Golden Gate Bridge today,” says Peterson, pointing west. “You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can see it for sure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turning north, Peterson points out the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers merging to form the California Delta. South, she describes a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore/Pleasanton. Finally we look east, where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-capped Sierra over 100 miles away, rising above the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a clear day you can see Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that persists that you can see Half Dome, but it’s blocked by one of the land features in between,” Peterson says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the view’s magnificence, Seth Adams, land conservation director for Save Mount Diablo, is adamant that the Mount Kilimanjaro myth has no merit: “It’s absolutely not true that Mount Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Adams has spent a lot of time myth busting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808538\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 160px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808538 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"224\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-800x1120.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-1020x1428.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017.jpg 1241w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seth Adams, land conservation director at Save Mount Diablo, has dug into the history of the oft-repeated viewshed claim. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I never quite believed it,” he says. “It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain. Common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Considering the myth has been repeated countless times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Adams traced the myth back to the 1850s and ’60s, when geologists like Josiah Whitney first surveyed the mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mount Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The legend snowballed from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Botanist William Brewer, who visited the mountain in the 1860s, wrote, “The view was one never to be forgotten. […] Few views in North America are more extensive — certainly nothing in Europe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An article published in the Contra Costa Gazette on April 18, 1874, said that the view from the summit “[showed] more of the earth’s kingdom than is visible from any other known spot on the globe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808685\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808685 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"449\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-1020x572.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1.jpg 1437w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A brochure printed by entrepreneur Robert Noble Burgess, who purchased the summit of Mount Diablo in 1912. Burgess’ brochures helped popularized the claim that Mount Diablo had the greatest view in the world. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The claim about Mount Diablo’s view was repeated for decades, through the end of World War II, when recreation at parks and mountains picked up popularity. Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot as the Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps, by railroad companies and auto associations. Even the Contra Costa Development Association published materials in the 1940s describing the mountain as “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As visitors flocked to Mount Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators named Robert Noble Burgess and Walter P. Frick,” Adams says. “Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808683\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 300px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808683\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-160x243.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-800x1214.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1.jpg 1471w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The entrepreneur Walter P. Frick originally printed brochures claiming that “from the summit of Mount Diablo, a larger area of land and water is visible than from any other point in the world.” He later changed this claim to reflect that the view comes second to Mount Kilimanjaro. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Boasting that claim was a smart business move for Burgess, who had bought a portion of the mountain in 1912 and subsequently built the Mount Diablo Scenic Boulevard taking visitors to the summit. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on the mountain’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push his agenda forward. Burgess eventually went bankrupt and the deal flopped, but the brochures had done their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can definitely credit the brochures for spreading the misinformation, but it’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world,” Adams explains. “And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which brings us to another promoter, the Oakland entrepreneur Walter P. Frick. Initially Frick, who had been Burgess’ business partner, hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo’s view was the greatest on earth, which came in handy as he built an 8-foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. However, the engineers Frick worked with at Standard Oil Company were skeptical of the claim’s validity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin subsequently added a footnote to their brochure promoting the view as the world’s grandest, “Except for a point in Africa.” The reference to Mount Kilimanjaro was clear.\u003cbr>\nFrom there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world to the second largest. That new myth persisted until 1994, when engineer and mountaineer Edward “7.389056099” Earl mathematically debunked the theory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Using topographical atlases and aeronautical charts, Earl set out to determine the viewshed from the summit of Mount Diablo compared to others in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A viewshed is the area visible from a specific vantage point, including land or water. According to Earl’s calculations, Mount Diablo’s viewshed is between 13,000 and 21,000 square miles. That might sound like a lot, but Earl concluded that from other, taller North American mountains, it’s possible to see over three times as much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With a 19,341-foot elevation, Mount Kilimanjaro soars five times as high as Mount Diablo. In practical terms, a mountain as small as Mount Diablo couldn’t possibly have a greater viewshed than Mount Kilimanjaro — even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus,” says Adams with a laugh. “But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mount Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mount Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Luckily for visitors, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When it comes to size – Mount Diablo is the Bay Area’s grandest landmark. It’s often the first glimpse of home you’ll see after a long drive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it. The Bay Miwok tribe believe the mountain is sacred — that it is the central point of the world’s creation, where man was made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s a different story that caught the attention of listener Mark Isaak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Isaak:\u003c/strong> I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land – not just ocean, but actual land – is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro, but that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mark heard this legend so long ago, he can’t remember where it came from. But he’s not alone. Lots of you have heard this story. And it does seem possible. Mount Diablo is an isolated peak, it’s a lot taller than everything else around it. So even though there are lots of taller mountains, they might not have as big of a view because other mountains get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From the top of Diablo you can see from the Pacific Ocean, all the way across the state to the Sierra. But second biggest view in the world … really?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to find out if Mount Diablo’s view deserves so remarkable an accolade, and explore the story behind the legend. This story first aired in 2020. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we set out to learn if Mount Diablo is in fact numero dos on the list of places on earth where you can see the most land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporter Asal Ehsanipour takes a winding road to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[driving sounds]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The mystery of the view from Mount Diablo is a romantic one – steeped in local legend. To find out if it’s true, I drove to the source itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[GPS: “IN 600 FEET…”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From the base of the mountain, it takes me about an hour to get to the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[car door shuts, locks]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside)\u003c/strong>: Wow, that took so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Asal Ehsanipour: Mount Diablo sits on the Eastern Edge of the Bay Area – in Contra Costa County. But you can see its double peak pyramid from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, the mountain’s view is second to none. Well, it’s second to one… maybe. We’ll find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So the view when you come up here is really amazing. How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate. But I’m kind of partial to the view here from Mount Diablo and I think most people that come are pretty amazed by what the view looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> My tour guide today is Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter – which, she says, means her job is to tell the story of the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[footsteps on a trail]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Sharon takes me to the summit’s viewing deck. She says that on a clear day, you can see 40 of California’s 58 counties from here. As little as 1% of some. But still.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> This is where we walk out into the wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> First, she points west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So you can see the Golden Gate Bridge today. You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can probably see it for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> She whips them out and there it is. The Golden Gate Bridge, 60 31 miles away. Two towers peeking over Round Top in the Berkeley Hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s really cool!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Then, we turn North. And you can see the Sacramento and San Juaquin rivers forming the Delta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>South, it’s a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore – Pleasanton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And finally, East. Where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-speckled Sierras rising above the Central Valley – over a hundred miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> And I heard that you can also see Yosemite from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> On a clear day you can. And with binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that you can see Half Dome, but it’s actually blocked by one of the land features in between here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seeing it for myself, the site is so magnificent, so magical, that it feels like I’m looking down at a watercolor. The only thing that compares is the view from a plane. Maybe it’s possible the myth is true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> It’s absolutely not true that Mt. Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seth Adams is the Land Conservation Director at Save Mount Diablo. And he’s spent a lot of time mythbusting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> I never quite believed it. It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain and common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But considering the myth has been repeated hundreds of times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Seth traced the infatuation with Diablo back to the 1850s and 60s – when scientists like Josiah [Hosiah] Whitney first geologically surveyed the mountain. That’s Josiah Whitney of Mount Whitney – the tallest mountain in the Sierra Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Josiah Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mt. Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The legend snowballed from there. Repeated over and over for decades – through the end of World War II. A time when people started experiencing parks and mountains recreationally – and Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot. The Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps. By railroad companies and auto associations. Even Contra Costa County described it as quote: “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But as visitors flocked to Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators. Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mt. Diablo having the largest view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Boasting that claim was a smart business move for one developer. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on Diablo’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push forward his agenda. Eventually the developer went bankrupt and the deal flopped. But, it was too late. The brochures had done their work…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Oh you can definitely credit the brochures with spreading the misinformation. It’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world, right. And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Which brings us to another promoter… the entrepreneur Walter P. Frick, who hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo had the greatest view on earth. Especially as he built an 8 foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. But Frick was working with engineers from the Standard Oil Company… and they were skeptical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Someone for the first time said, “come on, biggest view in the entire world?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> So after that – the 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin added a footnote to their brochure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> “Except for a point in Africa.” Clearly being Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world, to the second largest. It went on like this until 1994 – when it was officially debunked by an engineer slash mountaineer who did the math. His name was Edward Earl, but he went by the nickname “7.389056099.” …Math joke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He said ‘I don’t believe this. And so what I’m gonna do is I’m going to define the problem and I’m gonna calculate view sheds for lots of other mountains and see how they compare.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Viewshed is “the area visible from a specific vantage point” including land or water. Now remember, Whitney speculated Diablo’s viewshed was about 40,000 square miles. But according to Earl’s calculations, it’s actually between 13,000 and 21,000. That might still sound like a lot, but from other, taller mountains you can see more than 3 times as much. And even for a total non-mathematician like me – it kind of makes sense. Mount Kilimanjaro is 5 times the size of Mount Diablo. So, Diablo couldn’t possibly have a comparable viewshed – even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus. [laughs] But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mt. Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mt. Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> And looking out from the summit, it is extraordinary. And luckily for us, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>===\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour. Big thanks to Mark Isaak, our question asker this week. And hey — there’s a new voting round up at BayCurious.org. Let’s hear this month’s options…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> I noticed a few older homes in Noe Valley/Mission/Glen Park with “Lipton Tea” on the window. It looks like they’re old corner stores. Any stories on why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I would like to know how the effects of climate change in the San Francisco Bay impact the underwater sonic environment. Are there any bio-acoustic studies being done locally on this topic?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> What is the history behind Ashland and Cherryland, two unincorporated communities in the East Bay? What defines an “unincorporated” community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Head to BayCurious.org to cast your vote for which question you’d like to see us answer next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katie McMurran, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Happy trails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"The idea that Mount Diablo has one of the largest viewsheds in the world has been circulating for centuries. Is it true?","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1726081753,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":93,"wordCount":3383},"headData":{"title":"Does Mount Diablo Have the Biggest View in the World? | KQED","description":"The idea that Mount Diablo has one of the largest viewsheds in the world has been circulating for centuries. Is it true?","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Does Mount Diablo Have the Biggest View in the World?","datePublished":"2024-09-11T03:00:19-07:00","dateModified":"2024-09-11T12:09:13-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious","audioUrl":"https://traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9914497354.mp3","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11808501/does-mount-diablo-have-the-biggest-view-in-the-world","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003cem>Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This story was originally published March 26, 2020. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Mount Diablo is one of the Bay Area’s grandest landmarks and often the first glimpse of home you might see after a long drive. The mountain sits on the eastern edge of the Bay Area, in Contra Costa County, and its peak is visible from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, Mount Diablo stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Years ago, listener Mark Isaak heard a rumor about the view from Mount Diablo’s summit: “I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land — not just ocean, but actual land — is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro. But that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Taking in the View\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The view when you come up here is really amazing,” says Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter. “How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate, but I’m partial to the view from Mount Diablo, and I think most people are pretty amazed by it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the Mount Diablo Summit Museum and trailhead viewing deck, Peterson says that 40 of California’s 58 counties are visible on a clear day. As little as 1% of some counties can be seen, but still, it’s an impressive tally.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808512\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11808512\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"585\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-800x585.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-160x117.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1020x746.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Sharon-Peterson-1920x1404.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter, gets to marvel at Mount Diablo’s view regularly. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“You can see the Golden Gate Bridge today,” says Peterson, pointing west. “You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can see it for sure.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Turning north, Peterson points out the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers merging to form the California Delta. South, she describes a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore/Pleasanton. Finally we look east, where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-capped Sierra over 100 miles away, rising above the Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a clear day you can see Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“With binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that persists that you can see Half Dome, but it’s blocked by one of the land features in between,” Peterson says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the view’s magnificence, Seth Adams, land conservation director for Save Mount Diablo, is adamant that the Mount Kilimanjaro myth has no merit: “It’s absolutely not true that Mount Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro,” he says.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Adams has spent a lot of time myth busting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808538\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 160px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808538 size-thumbnail\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"160\" height=\"224\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-160x224.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-800x1120.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017-1020x1428.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/2017-Seth-Morgan-Territory-Open-Roads-4-11-2017.jpg 1241w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 160px) 100vw, 160px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Seth Adams, land conservation director at Save Mount Diablo, has dug into the history of the oft-repeated viewshed claim. \u003ccite>(Asal Ehsanipour/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I never quite believed it,” he says. “It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain. Common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Considering the myth has been repeated countless times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Adams traced the myth back to the 1850s and ’60s, when geologists like Josiah Whitney first surveyed the mountain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mount Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The legend snowballed from there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Botanist William Brewer, who visited the mountain in the 1860s, wrote, “The view was one never to be forgotten. […] Few views in North America are more extensive — certainly nothing in Europe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>An article published in the Contra Costa Gazette on April 18, 1874, said that the view from the summit “[showed] more of the earth’s kingdom than is visible from any other known spot on the globe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808685\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808685 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"449\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-800x449.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1-1020x572.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Burgess-map-Picture1.jpg 1437w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A brochure printed by entrepreneur Robert Noble Burgess, who purchased the summit of Mount Diablo in 1912. Burgess’ brochures helped popularized the claim that Mount Diablo had the greatest view in the world. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The claim about Mount Diablo’s view was repeated for decades, through the end of World War II, when recreation at parks and mountains picked up popularity. Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot as the Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps, by railroad companies and auto associations. Even the Contra Costa Development Association published materials in the 1940s describing the mountain as “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As visitors flocked to Mount Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators named Robert Noble Burgess and Walter P. Frick,” Adams says. “Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11808683\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 300px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11808683\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"455\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-1020x1548.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-160x243.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1-800x1214.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2020/03/Frick-brochure-Picture1.jpg 1471w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 300px) 100vw, 300px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The entrepreneur Walter P. Frick originally printed brochures claiming that “from the summit of Mount Diablo, a larger area of land and water is visible than from any other point in the world.” He later changed this claim to reflect that the view comes second to Mount Kilimanjaro. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Save Mount Diablo)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Boasting that claim was a smart business move for Burgess, who had bought a portion of the mountain in 1912 and subsequently built the Mount Diablo Scenic Boulevard taking visitors to the summit. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on the mountain’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push his agenda forward. Burgess eventually went bankrupt and the deal flopped, but the brochures had done their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can definitely credit the brochures for spreading the misinformation, but it’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world,” Adams explains. “And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Which brings us to another promoter, the Oakland entrepreneur Walter P. Frick. Initially Frick, who had been Burgess’ business partner, hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo’s view was the greatest on earth, which came in handy as he built an 8-foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. However, the engineers Frick worked with at Standard Oil Company were skeptical of the claim’s validity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin subsequently added a footnote to their brochure promoting the view as the world’s grandest, “Except for a point in Africa.” The reference to Mount Kilimanjaro was clear.\u003cbr>\nFrom there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world to the second largest. That new myth persisted until 1994, when engineer and mountaineer Edward “7.389056099” Earl mathematically debunked the theory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Using topographical atlases and aeronautical charts, Earl set out to determine the viewshed from the summit of Mount Diablo compared to others in North America.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A viewshed is the area visible from a specific vantage point, including land or water. According to Earl’s calculations, Mount Diablo’s viewshed is between 13,000 and 21,000 square miles. That might sound like a lot, but Earl concluded that from other, taller North American mountains, it’s possible to see over three times as much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With a 19,341-foot elevation, Mount Kilimanjaro soars five times as high as Mount Diablo. In practical terms, a mountain as small as Mount Diablo couldn’t possibly have a greater viewshed than Mount Kilimanjaro — even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus,” says Adams with a laugh. “But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mount Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mount Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Luckily for visitors, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When it comes to size – Mount Diablo is the Bay Area’s grandest landmark. It’s often the first glimpse of home you’ll see after a long drive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It stands apart from other mountains nearby, not just because of its prominence, but because of the legends that surround it. The Bay Miwok tribe believe the mountain is sacred — that it is the central point of the world’s creation, where man was made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s a different story that caught the attention of listener Mark Isaak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mark Isaak:\u003c/strong> I’ve heard that the spot on the earth from which you can see the most land – not just ocean, but actual land – is the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro, but that the summit of Mount Diablo comes in second. Is that true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mark heard this legend so long ago, he can’t remember where it came from. But he’s not alone. Lots of you have heard this story. And it does seem possible. Mount Diablo is an isolated peak, it’s a lot taller than everything else around it. So even though there are lots of taller mountains, they might not have as big of a view because other mountains get in the way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>From the top of Diablo you can see from the Pacific Ocean, all the way across the state to the Sierra. But second biggest view in the world … really?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today we’re going to find out if Mount Diablo’s view deserves so remarkable an accolade, and explore the story behind the legend. This story first aired in 2020. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, so we set out to learn if Mount Diablo is in fact numero dos on the list of places on earth where you can see the most land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Reporter Asal Ehsanipour takes a winding road to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[driving sounds]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The mystery of the view from Mount Diablo is a romantic one – steeped in local legend. To find out if it’s true, I drove to the source itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[GPS: “IN 600 FEET…”]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From the base of the mountain, it takes me about an hour to get to the top.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[car door shuts, locks]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside)\u003c/strong>: Wow, that took so long.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Asal Ehsanipour: Mount Diablo sits on the Eastern Edge of the Bay Area – in Contra Costa County. But you can see its double peak pyramid from most spots around the Bay. At 3,849 feet, the mountain’s view is second to none. Well, it’s second to one… maybe. We’ll find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So the view when you come up here is really amazing. How it compares to Kilimanjaro is up for debate. But I’m kind of partial to the view here from Mount Diablo and I think most people that come are pretty amazed by what the view looks like.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> My tour guide today is Sharon Peterson, Mount Diablo State Park’s interpreter – which, she says, means her job is to tell the story of the park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[footsteps on a trail]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Sharon takes me to the summit’s viewing deck. She says that on a clear day, you can see 40 of California’s 58 counties from here. As little as 1% of some. But still.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> This is where we walk out into the wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> First, she points west.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> So you can see the Golden Gate Bridge today. You could see both towers with the naked eye. And if I give you the binoculars, you can probably see it for sure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> She whips them out and there it is. The Golden Gate Bridge, 60 31 miles away. Two towers peeking over Round Top in the Berkeley Hills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s really cool!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Then, we turn North. And you can see the Sacramento and San Juaquin rivers forming the Delta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>South, it’s a sweeping view of the Diablo Range and Livermore – Pleasanton.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And finally, East. Where through the haze we catch a glimpse of the snow-speckled Sierras rising above the Central Valley – over a hundred miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour (outside):\u003c/strong> And I heard that you can also see Yosemite from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sharon Peterson:\u003c/strong> On a clear day you can. And with binoculars you can see Sentinel Dome. There is a rumor that you can see Half Dome, but it’s actually blocked by one of the land features in between here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seeing it for myself, the site is so magnificent, so magical, that it feels like I’m looking down at a watercolor. The only thing that compares is the view from a plane. Maybe it’s possible the myth is true?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> It’s absolutely not true that Mt. Diablo has the largest view in the world except for Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Seth Adams is the Land Conservation Director at Save Mount Diablo. And he’s spent a lot of time mythbusting the Kilimanjaro claim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> I never quite believed it. It just didn’t have the ring of truth to me because it’s a small mountain and common sense would tell you the taller the mountain, the bigger the view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But considering the myth has been repeated hundreds of times, he says it makes sense people would believe it. Seth traced the infatuation with Diablo back to the 1850s and 60s – when scientists like Josiah [Hosiah] Whitney first geologically surveyed the mountain. That’s Josiah Whitney of Mount Whitney – the tallest mountain in the Sierra Nevada.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Josiah Whitney wrote, “It is believed that there are few, if any, points on the earth’s surface from which so extensive an area may be seen as from Mt. Diablo. The whole area thus spread out, can hardly be less than 40,000 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> The legend snowballed from there. Repeated over and over for decades – through the end of World War II. A time when people started experiencing parks and mountains recreationally – and Mount Diablo became a go-to tourist spot. The Kilimanjaro claim circulated in travel guides and hiking maps. By railroad companies and auto associations. Even Contra Costa County described it as quote: “the world’s greatest view! More territory visible than from any point in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> But as visitors flocked to Diablo for the views, entrepreneurs saw a chance to make a buck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> More than half of Mount Diablo was locked up successively by two big real estate land speculators. Both of them printed brochures by the thousands that included the claim of Mt. Diablo having the largest view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Boasting that claim was a smart business move for one developer. In 1917, he had a dream of building thousands of homes on Diablo’s western flank, and those amazing views helped push forward his agenda. Eventually the developer went bankrupt and the deal flopped. But, it was too late. The brochures had done their work…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Oh you can definitely credit the brochures with spreading the misinformation. It’s just too good to claim the largest view in the world, right. And understand that California was a promoter’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Which brings us to another promoter… the entrepreneur Walter P. Frick, who hired a publicist to help him spread the rumor that Mount Diablo had the greatest view on earth. Especially as he built an 8 foot beacon tower known as the Eye of Diablo. But Frick was working with engineers from the Standard Oil Company… and they were skeptical.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> Someone for the first time said, “come on, biggest view in the entire world?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> So after that – the 1928 Standard Oil Bulletin added a footnote to their brochure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> “Except for a point in Africa.” Clearly being Mount Kilimanjaro.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> From there, the legend shifted from Mount Diablo having the largest view in the world, to the second largest. It went on like this until 1994 – when it was officially debunked by an engineer slash mountaineer who did the math. His name was Edward Earl, but he went by the nickname “7.389056099.” …Math joke.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He said ‘I don’t believe this. And so what I’m gonna do is I’m going to define the problem and I’m gonna calculate view sheds for lots of other mountains and see how they compare.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Viewshed is “the area visible from a specific vantage point” including land or water. Now remember, Whitney speculated Diablo’s viewshed was about 40,000 square miles. But according to Earl’s calculations, it’s actually between 13,000 and 21,000. That might still sound like a lot, but from other, taller mountains you can see more than 3 times as much. And even for a total non-mathematician like me – it kind of makes sense. Mount Kilimanjaro is 5 times the size of Mount Diablo. So, Diablo couldn’t possibly have a comparable viewshed – even if it is an isolated peak.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Seth Adams:\u003c/strong> He conclusively showed the Mount Diablo viewshed claim was bogus. [laughs] But it doesn’t really matter because the claim had already done its work. Mt. Diablo became famous. It became beloved. And as I said, Mt. Diablo may not have the largest view in the world, but it certainly has the most extraordinary view in the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> And looking out from the summit, it is extraordinary. And luckily for us, extraordinary can’t be measured with math.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>===\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour. Big thanks to Mark Isaak, our question asker this week. And hey — there’s a new voting round up at BayCurious.org. Let’s hear this month’s options…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> I noticed a few older homes in Noe Valley/Mission/Glen Park with “Lipton Tea” on the window. It looks like they’re old corner stores. Any stories on why?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I would like to know how the effects of climate change in the San Francisco Bay impact the underwater sonic environment. Are there any bio-acoustic studies being done locally on this topic?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> What is the history behind Ashland and Cherryland, two unincorporated communities in the East Bay? What defines an “unincorporated” community?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Head to BayCurious.org to cast your vote for which question you’d like to see us answer next.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by… Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katie McMurran, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Happy trails.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11808501/does-mount-diablo-have-the-biggest-view-in-the-world","authors":["11580"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8","news_33520"],"tags":["news_24345","news_4794"],"featImg":"news_11808521","label":"source_news_11808501"},"news_12002191":{"type":"posts","id":"news_12002191","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"12002191","score":null,"sort":[1724925638000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"for-a-taste-of-the-old-west-head-to-this-tiny-bay-area-town","title":"The Bay Area Wild West Port Town That Reinvented Itself","publishDate":1724925638,"format":"standard","headTitle":"The Bay Area Wild West Port Town That Reinvented Itself | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa is a tiny, funky town on the Carquinez Strait that looks and feels like a time capsule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s way out at the end of a windy road. If you drive there, you won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense.[baycuriouspodcastinfo align=\"right\"]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tracks of the old transcontinental railroad run along the edge of town, and just offshore, the water is deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Growing Port Town\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley, and Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. Soon, warehouses and wharves lined the shore, almost from Crockett to Martinez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002227\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002227\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A train passes by the town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other to load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between as thousands of people flocked to the growing town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1879, Port Costa became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The largest ferry in the world called the Solano, carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa. It had four tracks on it and could fit 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. Trains drove onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together and they drove off. The entire operation, including the journey across the strait, took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1914, an even bigger ferry, called the Contra Costa, was added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route between New York and San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002240\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002240\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Port Costa outside the town in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This place was kind of the classic Wild West,” said Suzanne Statler of the Port Costa Conservation Society. “You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel . . . and a saloon . . . and a place to cash your money . . . and a saloon . . .”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow: a train bridge was built between Benicia and Martinez, shifting passenger and freight traffic inland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All the activities around the trains, it all dried up,” Statler said. “The whole purpose of this town got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Town’s Next Chapter\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, all that was left of the waterfront was rotting pilings stretched along the shore (you can still see them today). Only the inland part of town was still standing when a Coors delivery driver named Bill Rich first saw it. He thought it could make for a cool, eclectic place for artists. He bought the downtown for a cheap price and revived some of the old establishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of them is the Burlington Hotel, a charming yellow three-story building from 1883. Each of its rooms has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday. But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 1970s. Sarah Louise Humann, who owns the crystal shop next door to the hotel, thinks the place is too fancy to be a brothel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002154\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The ‘Peggy’ room at the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The center of town was what you wanted the investors to see,” Humann said. “All the ill repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the hotel’s hallway is a big mirror full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions. It’s old enough to have been made with real silver behind the glass, which tarnishes with age and creates a dark, dripping look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel,” Humann said. “It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted ‘anything could be on the other side of it’ vibe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002224\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002224\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An antique mirror hangs on the third floor of the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Humann says the rumor of haunting has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals,” she said, “because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts, but Barbara Williams, who bartends across the street in the Warehouse Cafe, says she has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was in the bar. I was closing,” Williams said. “And I felt a breeze going past my face. And as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The door, she said, was closed and locked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002158\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002158\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Paintings hang above the entryway staircase at the Burlington Hotel in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Port Costa Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And inside, dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art cover the walls and ceiling. In the corner, an almost 9-foot-tall taxidermied polar bear looms over a baby seal. There’s also a water buffalo, a metal Medusa sculpture, circus masks and life preservers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002161\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The collection has taken on a momentum of its own, bartender Lary Dameron says. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002159\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002159\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A taxidermy polar bear and bear are on display at The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum, and they were cleaning out the basement, so he calls up, and he’s like, you guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” Dameron said. “It’s like, ‘hell yeah, I want it.’ How often do people offer you a bear?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa still has the raucous character of its old port days. Only about 250 people live here now, and though \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/soleilho/article/california-san-francisco-bay-area-nimby-battle-19518620.php\">they don’t agree on everything\u003c/a>, they do share a devotion to this unique place along the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002162\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Lary Dameron stands behind the bar at the Warehouse Cafe in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne Hockenberry has vivid memories of being a teenager and going on long bike rides with her mom. They’d often start in Crockett, ride along the Carquinez Strait to Martinez. And sometimes continue on all the way to Danville, some 25 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> And then my dad would follow us in, in the VA, in the VW bus. So we had a camper bus, and he biked sometimes, but he wasn’t into it like my mom was. And so yeah, then he would follow along. And so when we got tired, we could just like take a break and get in the bus in the VW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Along these journeys — Marianne and her mom passed through some of the rural, golden hills of the Bay Area. And the towns nestled in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> She liked to tell me stories about Port Costa when we would go through there. We’d be eating at the warehouse…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Warehouse … an iconic building in the small town of Port Costa, and just across the street is an old Victorian hotel. It’s weather-worn but still charming with its chipped yellow and blue paint…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> … and, she would tell me this used to be, a brothel or used to be women of the night here like she would say, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t totally sure about the truth behind her mom’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> My mom was… she was a wonderful kind of crazy woman. And, you know, I don’t know, I, I pretty much take after her, I think. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t the only person curious about Port Costa. We’ve received a few questions over the years about this tiny, eclectic town sitting along the Carquinez Strait. Today, we’ll answer a slew of them! Did that old hotel used to be a brothel? Is it haunted? Was Port Costa once a port, as the name suggests?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious. The show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer the questions from Marianne and other listeners about Port Costa, we first have to get there! KQED’s Katherine Monahan got the job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> If you drive to Port Costa, it’s pretty hard to understand why it’s here. It’s way out at the end of a windy road. You won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense. So we’re going to cross the tracks, look to the left, look to the right. No trains. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Suzanne Statler with the Port Costa Conservation Society steps across the railroad tracks that run along the shoreline at the edge of town. She points out into the waters of the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> If you go just out, 50 feet. It drops down to 50 feet there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked here . . . at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley. And a businessman named George W. McNear realized that Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. So he bought a stretch of shoreline and started building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the Carquinez Straits, you had warehouses that were built and burned down and rebuilt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other and load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the waterfront there, that is where downtown was located at Port Costa. And it was quite a bustling place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Thousands of people flocked to the growing town — stevedores, railroad workers, fishermen. McNear, who became known as “The Wheat King,” started building inland as well, up a narrow valley, away from the wildness of the wharves. Port Costa grew into kind of a T-shape, with the waterfront as the top of the T, and then along the stem …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> The modern town was where people lived. So your boarding houses were there, your individual family homes were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1879, it became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad. The largest ferry in the world carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa — 24 hours a day. It was called the Solano.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> It was 425 feet long.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> What!?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> Four, four football fields. Plus.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> That’s buck wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Solano could carry 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. It had four tracks on it. Trains drove right up onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together again and they drove off. The entire operation — including the journey across the strait — took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route, which ran between the East Coast and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> This place was kind of the classic Wild West. You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel and a saloon and a place to cash your money and a saloon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived. California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms — small wood-burrowing mollusks — ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow — a train bridge was built a little ways inland, between Benicia and Martinez, rendering the Solano train ferry obsolete\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> People coming in and out of Port Costa and all the activities around the trains, it all dried up. The whole purpose of this town that had been built on, got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Some thirty years passed, and by the 1960s, the place was almost a ghost town. The waterfront part, all the warehouses and saloons and such, was gone — just a bunch of rotting pilings stretched along the shore. Only the inland part was still standing when a man named Bill Rich first saw it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> He was a Coors delivery driver. And he said, you know what, this would be an awesome place to make into a really eclectic, funky, awesome place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And he did it! Rich bought the downtown for cheap and revived some of the old establishments. One of them is the Burlington Hotel. It closed during the pandemic, but Sarah Humann, who owns a crystal shop next door, has the keys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys jingling]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So the doors to the Burlington Hotel are a very popular photo backdrop. Watch your step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Door opening]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Oh. my. Goodness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so everything in the hotel’s pretty creaky. Uh, we can head upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Stepping sounds]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Through the carved wooden doors, up past the painted portraits mounted on the velvet embossed wallpaper, are the hotel rooms. And each has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So we have Hazel, Corrine, Victoria is a really pretty room. And I think I can get you in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So this is Ethel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys opening the door]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 70s. Which seems like a more probable fit. I mean, maybe Ethel was a sexy name back in the 1800s. But . . . Fanny?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Fanny is a room that has purple maroon furniture set against an olive green wall color. There’s definitely some porcelain kitty cats and some cotton candy, pink, floral decorated lamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann thinks this hotel was too fancy to be a brothel, and besides, it was in the more straight-laced, residential section.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Just understanding how these old towns worked is, the center of town was what you wanted the investors to see. All the ill-repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Down the hallway, Humann points out the probable source of another popular rumor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel. It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted, anything could be on the other side of it, vibe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s about 4 feet tall and wide and full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> The old mirrors have an actual layer of silver on the other side of the glass. And so, over time, that silver has tarnished. And you can kind of see how it all drips down. It’s very cool looking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The hotel is old and creaky and has actual bats living in the walls. Humann says it’s not surprising that people like to think it’s haunted. But that the rumor has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals, because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts. But Barbara Williams, who works across the street, says she has. She bartends in the Warehouse Cafe. It’s on the first floor of the last of the town’s grain warehouses, built in 1886.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> I was in the bar. I was closing. And I felt a breeze going past my face, and as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> And when you say walk through the door, was the door open?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> The door was locked. It was closed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Another night, she says, she saw a man go into the back of the bar, and she went to tell him he wasn’t allowed there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> Got up, looked around. No one was here. So, I told the other bartender the next day about what happened. And she said you described Bill Rich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bill Rich, the guy who bought the town in the 1960s, had passed away some years before that. But he used to own the Warehouse bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music of band playing outside Warehouse Cafe]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And daytrippers, along with some of the town’s 250 residents, come here to drink and chat. It’s nice. It’s sunny. A few cats are walking around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And inside, it is seriously funky, with dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art all over the walls and ceiling. Lary Dameron has been bartending here for close to 20 years. He points to a taxidermied polar bear in a glass case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> He’s 8 foot, 8 inches tall. He’s standing up like he’s gonna swipe at you or something. But, um, the dead baby seal at his feet is unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The polar bear is too weird and majestic to call the bar’s mascot, but it’s certainly part of its soul.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> It was payment for some work that Bill, the guy who bought the town … he did some work for this guy and that was how he paid him back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> With a polar bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> There’s also a water buffalo, a metal medusa sculpture, circus masks and giant candelabras and life preservers. And the collection has taken on a momentum of its own. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum and they were cleaning out the basement. So he calls up, and he’s like, “You guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” I was like, “For free?” He’s like, “Yeah.” (sarcastically) I’m like, “No, no, I don’t want that…” It’s like, “hell yeah. I want it!” It’s like, how often do people offer you a bear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa is a unique place. And the people who know about it really treasure it. Dameron walks outside to where the band is packing up at the end of their set, and a few residents and bikers are just enjoying the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> You know, when the sun goes down, it’s kind of like this. It’s really nice. And you get, you know, boats go by, and ships go by, and trains and stuff. And it’s kind of cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a time capsule. It’s still got that raucous character that it had in the beginning. And as Dameron points out, Port Costa is surrounded by designated parkland, so it won’t be growing any time soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> If the town doesn’t just disintegrate or something, it’ll be exactly how it is today because it’s not going to change. I mean, it can’t really change; as long as people maintain it and live here, it’ll be just like it is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sound of train going by]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan. Thanks to Marianne Hockenberry for asking the question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We won’t be dropping an episode next week because the Bay Curious team is off for Labor Day (and I really hope you are, too.) We need all the rest we can get because when we return, we start work on Prop Fest — our podcast series that explains all those confuddling props on the statewide ballot. If there’s one on your radar you’ve got questions about, send ‘em our way! There’s a question box to fill out at BayCurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Are you a longtime listener who hasn’t gotten around to leaving us a rating and review? I get it — but please, do us a solid and take a few minutes today. Those ahem, five-star reviews keep us going and help other listeners find us, too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Port Costa, sitting along the Carquinez Strait, is an eclectic town with a raucous history.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1725217210,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":113,"wordCount":4048},"headData":{"title":"The Bay Area Wild West Port Town That Reinvented Itself | KQED","description":"Port Costa, sitting along the Carquinez Strait, is an eclectic town with a raucous history.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"The Bay Area Wild West Port Town That Reinvented Itself","datePublished":"2024-08-29T03:00:38-07:00","dateModified":"2024-09-01T12:00:10-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC1283441206.mp3","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-12002191","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","showOnAuthorArchivePages":"No","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/12002191/for-a-taste-of-the-old-west-head-to-this-tiny-bay-area-town","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa is a tiny, funky town on the Carquinez Strait that looks and feels like a time capsule.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s way out at the end of a windy road. If you drive there, you won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense.\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The tracks of the old transcontinental railroad run along the edge of town, and just offshore, the water is deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Growing Port Town\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley, and Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. Soon, warehouses and wharves lined the shore, almost from Crockett to Martinez.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002227\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002227\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-56-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A train passes by the town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other to load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between as thousands of people flocked to the growing town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1879, Port Costa became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The largest ferry in the world called the Solano, carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa. It had four tracks on it and could fit 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. Trains drove onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together and they drove off. The entire operation, including the journey across the strait, took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1914, an even bigger ferry, called the Contra Costa, was added.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route between New York and San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002240\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002240\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-72-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A sign for Port Costa outside the town in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This place was kind of the classic Wild West,” said Suzanne Statler of the Port Costa Conservation Society. “You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel . . . and a saloon . . . and a place to cash your money . . . and a saloon . . .”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow: a train bridge was built between Benicia and Martinez, shifting passenger and freight traffic inland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All the activities around the trains, it all dried up,” Statler said. “The whole purpose of this town got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002238\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002238\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-61-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The town of Port Costa in Contra Costa County on Aug. 27, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>The Town’s Next Chapter\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, all that was left of the waterfront was rotting pilings stretched along the shore (you can still see them today). Only the inland part of town was still standing when a Coors delivery driver named Bill Rich first saw it. He thought it could make for a cool, eclectic place for artists. He bought the downtown for a cheap price and revived some of the old establishments.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of them is the Burlington Hotel, a charming yellow three-story building from 1883. Each of its rooms has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday. But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 1970s. Sarah Louise Humann, who owns the crystal shop next door to the hotel, thinks the place is too fancy to be a brothel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002154\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002154\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-13-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The ‘Peggy’ room at the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The center of town was what you wanted the investors to see,” Humann said. “All the ill repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the hotel’s hallway is a big mirror full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions. It’s old enough to have been made with real silver behind the glass, which tarnishes with age and creates a dark, dripping look.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel,” Humann said. “It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted ‘anything could be on the other side of it’ vibe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002224\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002224\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PortCosta-04-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An antique mirror hangs on the third floor of the Burlington Hotel, which closed in 2020, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Humann says the rumor of haunting has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals,” she said, “because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts, but Barbara Williams, who bartends across the street in the Warehouse Cafe, says she has.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was in the bar. I was closing,” Williams said. “And I felt a breeze going past my face. And as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The door, she said, was closed and locked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002158\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002158\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-29-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Paintings hang above the entryway staircase at the Burlington Hotel in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Port Costa Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And inside, dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art cover the walls and ceiling. In the corner, an almost 9-foot-tall taxidermied polar bear looms over a baby seal. There’s also a water buffalo, a metal Medusa sculpture, circus masks and life preservers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002161\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002161\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-39-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The collection has taken on a momentum of its own, bartender Lary Dameron says. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002159\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002159\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-34-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A taxidermy polar bear and bear are on display at The Warehouse Cafe, a bar and restaurant, in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum, and they were cleaning out the basement, so he calls up, and he’s like, you guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” Dameron said. “It’s like, ‘hell yeah, I want it.’ How often do people offer you a bear?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Port Costa still has the raucous character of its old port days. Only about 250 people live here now, and though \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/soleilho/article/california-san-francisco-bay-area-nimby-battle-19518620.php\">they don’t agree on everything\u003c/a>, they do share a devotion to this unique place along the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12002162\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12002162\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240827-PORTCOSTA-44-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Lary Dameron stands behind the bar at the Warehouse Cafe in Port Costa on Aug. 27, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne Hockenberry has vivid memories of being a teenager and going on long bike rides with her mom. They’d often start in Crockett, ride along the Carquinez Strait to Martinez. And sometimes continue on all the way to Danville, some 25 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> And then my dad would follow us in, in the VA, in the VW bus. So we had a camper bus, and he biked sometimes, but he wasn’t into it like my mom was. And so yeah, then he would follow along. And so when we got tired, we could just like take a break and get in the bus in the VW.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Along these journeys — Marianne and her mom passed through some of the rural, golden hills of the Bay Area. And the towns nestled in them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> She liked to tell me stories about Port Costa when we would go through there. We’d be eating at the warehouse…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The Warehouse … an iconic building in the small town of Port Costa, and just across the street is an old Victorian hotel. It’s weather-worn but still charming with its chipped yellow and blue paint…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> … and, she would tell me this used to be, a brothel or used to be women of the night here like she would say, you know.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t totally sure about the truth behind her mom’s stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> My mom was… she was a wonderful kind of crazy woman. And, you know, I don’t know, I, I pretty much take after her, I think. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Marianne isn’t the only person curious about Port Costa. We’ve received a few questions over the years about this tiny, eclectic town sitting along the Carquinez Strait. Today, we’ll answer a slew of them! Did that old hotel used to be a brothel? Is it haunted? Was Port Costa once a port, as the name suggests?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s all just ahead on Bay Curious. The show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer the questions from Marianne and other listeners about Port Costa, we first have to get there! KQED’s Katherine Monahan got the job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> If you drive to Port Costa, it’s pretty hard to understand why it’s here. It’s way out at the end of a windy road. You won’t see anything along the way except oak trees and maybe a squirrel or some crows. It seems totally disconnected from the rest of the world. But if you could come by ship or by train — it would all make sense. So we’re going to cross the tracks, look to the left, look to the right. No trains. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Suzanne Statler with the Port Costa Conservation Society steps across the railroad tracks that run along the shoreline at the edge of town. She points out into the waters of the Carquinez Strait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> If you go just out, 50 feet. It drops down to 50 feet there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> That’s deep enough for merchant ships from Europe to have docked here . . . at what was once one of the busiest ports on the West Coast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In the late 1800s, California was exporting huge quantities of wheat and barley. And a businessman named George W. McNear realized that Port Costa was in the perfect location: right on the main waterway connecting the food markets of Europe to the farms of the Central Valley. So he bought a stretch of shoreline and started building.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the Carquinez Straits, you had warehouses that were built and burned down and rebuilt.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It worked like a buffet table. Trains could pull up to the warehouses on one side and ships and barges on the other and load and unload grain. Businesses sprang up in between.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> All along the waterfront there, that is where downtown was located at Port Costa. And it was quite a bustling place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Thousands of people flocked to the growing town — stevedores, railroad workers, fishermen. McNear, who became known as “The Wheat King,” started building inland as well, up a narrow valley, away from the wildness of the wharves. Port Costa grew into kind of a T-shape, with the waterfront as the top of the T, and then along the stem …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> The modern town was where people lived. So your boarding houses were there, your individual family homes were there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> In 1879, it became a major stop on the transcontinental railroad. The largest ferry in the world carried entire trains across the water between Benicia and Port Costa — 24 hours a day. It was called the Solano.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> It was 425 feet long.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> What!?\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> Four, four football fields. Plus.\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> That’s buck wild.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The Solano could carry 48 freight cars or 24 passenger cars. It had four tracks on it. Trains drove right up onto the deck, and a team uncoupled them and pushed the remaining sections onboard with a switching engine. On the other side, the team put the trains back together again and they drove off. The entire operation — including the journey across the strait — took less than half an hour.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa developed a reputation as a fun place to stop on the transcontinental route, which ran between the East Coast and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> This place was kind of the classic Wild West. You’d get off the ferry, and you’d turn right, and you’d have a hotel and a saloon and a place to cash your money and a saloon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It was quite the raucous scene! But it was short-lived. California’s wheat market dropped off at the beginning of the 20th century. Fires kept destroying the wooden waterfront, and shipworms — small wood-burrowing mollusks — ate into the pilings that held up the wharves. In 1930 came the final blow — a train bridge was built a little ways inland, between Benicia and Martinez, rendering the Solano train ferry obsolete\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> People coming in and out of Port Costa and all the activities around the trains, it all dried up. The whole purpose of this town that had been built on, got kind of run over by time. So the town was dying.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Some thirty years passed, and by the 1960s, the place was almost a ghost town. The waterfront part, all the warehouses and saloons and such, was gone — just a bunch of rotting pilings stretched along the shore. Only the inland part was still standing when a man named Bill Rich first saw it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Suzanne Statler:\u003c/strong> He was a Coors delivery driver. And he said, you know what, this would be an awesome place to make into a really eclectic, funky, awesome place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And he did it! Rich bought the downtown for cheap and revived some of the old establishments. One of them is the Burlington Hotel. It closed during the pandemic, but Sarah Humann, who owns a crystal shop next door, has the keys.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys jingling]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So the doors to the Burlington Hotel are a very popular photo backdrop. Watch your step.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Door opening]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Oh. my. Goodness.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Yeah, so everything in the hotel’s pretty creaky. Uh, we can head upstairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Stepping sounds]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Through the carved wooden doors, up past the painted portraits mounted on the velvet embossed wallpaper, are the hotel rooms. And each has a lady’s name painted on the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So we have Hazel, Corrine, Victoria is a really pretty room. And I think I can get you in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The urban legend is that these were sex workers in Port Costa’s wild heyday.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> So this is Ethel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Keys opening the door]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> But many of the townsfolk say these women were, in fact, Bill Rich’s artist friends who had little shops up here in the 70s. Which seems like a more probable fit. I mean, maybe Ethel was a sexy name back in the 1800s. But . . . Fanny?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Fanny is a room that has purple maroon furniture set against an olive green wall color. There’s definitely some porcelain kitty cats and some cotton candy, pink, floral decorated lamps.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann thinks this hotel was too fancy to be a brothel, and besides, it was in the more straight-laced, residential section.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> Just understanding how these old towns worked is, the center of town was what you wanted the investors to see. All the ill-repute was probably done closer to the water. But they may have snuck gentlemen out the back door. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Down the hallway, Humann points out the probable source of another popular rumor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> This mirror is likely partially responsible for at least people’s illusion of ghosts in the hotel. It’s extremely old and exudes that haunted, anything could be on the other side of it, vibe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s about 4 feet tall and wide and full of shifting shadows that seem to lead back into misty dimensions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> The old mirrors have an actual layer of silver on the other side of the glass. And so, over time, that silver has tarnished. And you can kind of see how it all drips down. It’s very cool looking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The hotel is old and creaky and has actual bats living in the walls. Humann says it’s not surprising that people like to think it’s haunted. But that the rumor has attracted badly behaved ghost hunters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Humann:\u003c/strong> It is a little bit of a touchy subject for locals, because there’s been vandalization and damage and disrespect done.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Humann hasn’t seen any ghosts. But Barbara Williams, who works across the street, says she has. She bartends in the Warehouse Cafe. It’s on the first floor of the last of the town’s grain warehouses, built in 1886.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> I was in the bar. I was closing. And I felt a breeze going past my face, and as I turned to tell the people that I was closed, I saw a woman look at me and walk through the door.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> And when you say walk through the door, was the door open?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> The door was locked. It was closed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Another night, she says, she saw a man go into the back of the bar, and she went to tell him he wasn’t allowed there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Barbara Williams:\u003c/strong> Got up, looked around. No one was here. So, I told the other bartender the next day about what happened. And she said you described Bill Rich.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Bill Rich, the guy who bought the town in the 1960s, had passed away some years before that. But he used to own the Warehouse bar.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Music of band playing outside Warehouse Cafe]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> These days, the Warehouse is a popular weekend hangout for motorcycle clubs. Bands play out front in what used to be the train yard. And daytrippers, along with some of the town’s 250 residents, come here to drink and chat. It’s nice. It’s sunny. A few cats are walking around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> And inside, it is seriously funky, with dilapidated, festive relics and bits of art all over the walls and ceiling. Lary Dameron has been bartending here for close to 20 years. He points to a taxidermied polar bear in a glass case.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> He’s 8 foot, 8 inches tall. He’s standing up like he’s gonna swipe at you or something. But, um, the dead baby seal at his feet is unique.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> The polar bear is too weird and majestic to call the bar’s mascot, but it’s certainly part of its soul.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> It was payment for some work that Bill, the guy who bought the town … he did some work for this guy and that was how he paid him back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan (in tape):\u003c/strong> With a polar bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> There’s also a water buffalo, a metal medusa sculpture, circus masks and giant candelabras and life preservers. And the collection has taken on a momentum of its own. Just a few years ago, someone donated a Kodiak bear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> A guy who comes in on Sundays for music works at the wildlife museum and they were cleaning out the basement. So he calls up, and he’s like, “You guys interested in a Kodiak bear, you know, taxidermy?” I was like, “For free?” He’s like, “Yeah.” (sarcastically) I’m like, “No, no, I don’t want that…” It’s like, “hell yeah. I want it!” It’s like, how often do people offer you a bear?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> Port Costa is a unique place. And the people who know about it really treasure it. Dameron walks outside to where the band is packing up at the end of their set, and a few residents and bikers are just enjoying the evening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> You know, when the sun goes down, it’s kind of like this. It’s really nice. And you get, you know, boats go by, and ships go by, and trains and stuff. And it’s kind of cool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan:\u003c/strong> It’s a time capsule. It’s still got that raucous character that it had in the beginning. And as Dameron points out, Port Costa is surrounded by designated parkland, so it won’t be growing any time soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lary Dameron:\u003c/strong> If the town doesn’t just disintegrate or something, it’ll be exactly how it is today because it’s not going to change. I mean, it can’t really change; as long as people maintain it and live here, it’ll be just like it is now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>[Sound of train going by]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was KQED’s Katherine Monahan. Thanks to Marianne Hockenberry for asking the question.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We won’t be dropping an episode next week because the Bay Curious team is off for Labor Day (and I really hope you are, too.) We need all the rest we can get because when we return, we start work on Prop Fest — our podcast series that explains all those confuddling props on the statewide ballot. If there’s one on your radar you’ve got questions about, send ‘em our way! There’s a question box to fill out at BayCurious.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Are you a longtime listener who hasn’t gotten around to leaving us a rating and review? I get it — but please, do us a solid and take a few minutes today. Those ahem, five-star reviews keep us going and help other listeners find us, too!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Marianne Hockenberry:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious is made in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Our show is produced by Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/12002191/for-a-taste-of-the-old-west-head-to-this-tiny-bay-area-town","authors":["11842"],"programs":["news_33523"],"categories":["news_31795","news_8"],"tags":["news_18426","news_20902","news_5037","news_26838","news_227"],"featImg":"news_12002164","label":"news_33523"},"news_12001199":{"type":"posts","id":"news_12001199","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"12001199","score":null,"sort":[1724320838000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"the-provocative-and-flamboyant-origins-of-lowriding","title":"The Provocative, Rebellious and Flamboyant Origins of Lowriding","publishDate":1724320838,"format":"standard","headTitle":"The Provocative, Rebellious and Flamboyant Origins of Lowriding | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To some, a lowrider might just be a car with hydraulics, but amongst the most passionate followers, lowriding is a culture with its own aesthetic, attitude and history. Lowriding aficionados can now be found globally — in the streets of France, Japan, Dubai and more — each with their own style. But the origins of this artistic automotive subculture are still hotly debated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Bay Curious listener heard that lowriding got its start in both Los Angeles and San José. They asked us to explore the lowriding origin story or stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Professor John Ulloa, the Dean of Arts and Social Science at West Valley College, has spent time researching the history of lowriding for his podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says to start at ground zero we have to focus on one group of lowriders, the subculture of \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20230913-pachucos-the-latinx-subculture-that-defied-the-us\">pachucos\u003c/a> in East Los Angeles in the 1940s. Pachuco is Spanish for punk, and the group was made up of primarily Mexican American youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘All my friends know the lowrider’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Pachuco culture is provocative in nature, it really comes out of jazz culture, big band and swing,” Ulloa said. “These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/artbound/pachucos-not-just-mexican-american-males-or-juvenile-delinquents\">were othered and seen as foreign\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pachucos were children during the Great Depression, and they’d seen friends and family members deported en masse to Mexico — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002189/over-1-million-were-deported-to-mexico-nearly-100-years-ago-most-of-them-were-u-s-citizens\">even if they were legal citizens\u003c/a>. So these kids were about fighting assimilation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001113\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1235\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-800x494.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1020x630.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1536x948.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1920x1186.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The engine of ‘El Diablo,’ a 1963 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachuco culture developed in the shadow of World War II, at a time when many Americans were rationing gas, food, and not buying new clothes to save resources for the war effort. Rationing was seen as patriotic, but the pachuco style was extravagant. They wore zoot suits: a clothing style from jazz culture that was popular with Black, Latino and Filipino youth. It featured ballooned pants, exaggerated shoulder pads, and nice hats topped off with a single large feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American,” Ulloa said. “It was the antithesis of the white Anglo picket fence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001111\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001111\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachucos also went against the grain when it came to American car culture. In the late ’40s and early ’50s, white Americans were hacking their hot rod cars to go fast. But the pachucos were doing the exact opposite. They bought less expensive, older cars and customized them to go low and slow. Before the advent of hydraulics, that meant making the car heavier to force it lower to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You ‘slam it,’” said Ulloa, “Literally with sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding is compelling. But, Ulloa said, the San José scene is extremely significant in terms of lowrider history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001107\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001107\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Gallardo sits in her dream car, a 1958 Chevy Impala, at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Do You Know the Way to San Jose?’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The San José argument largely has to do with [it being] the birthplace of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101875250/san-jose-founded-lowrider-magazine-icon-of-chicano-car-culture-goes-out-of-print\">\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine\u003c/a>,” Ulloa said. “It was a lifestyle magazine, it wasn’t just cars and vehicles — it was people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1977 while studying at San Jose State, Sonny Madrid launched \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine, a monthly publication that celebrated Chicano culture. A small staff, including some of Madrid’s friends, wrote articles about fashion, music, politics — it was a hit at the newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001102\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001102\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The steering wheel of a Buick Regal with ‘SF’ on it at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Ulloa stamps the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>being published as the “Golden Era,” because people were already lowriding but its circulation was able to reach audiences beyond San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest,” said Ulloa. “The youth had \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, whether they were lowriding or not — they were able to see themselves at a car show as participants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001105\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001105\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Monte Carlo parked on three wheels outside of the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> solidified lowriding as a culture in California, and then the circulation of the magazine went international. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine was filled with submissions from readers in Great Britain, France, all over the world, giving praise for the magazine’s content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When there’s a global phenomenon, there’s always a local take on it. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A., or San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job, or a tire size popular in a certain area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001110\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001110\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 1963 Chevy Impala enters the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark. Ulloa won’t settle the debate about the origins starting in Los Angeles or San José. He said it originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does. Everyone wants to own a piece of history, he said, especially when there are communities who have had their histories systemically erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about lowriding, check out these episodes of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13923205/best-of-roll-with-us-a-sisterhood-of-lowriding\">Rightnowish \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/trulyca/99/everything-comes-from-the-streets\">Truly CA\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>And if you want to know how lowriding — once banned in California — finally became legal, check out this episode of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">The Bay\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001112\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001112\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A car with a sign reading ‘I’m not old, I’m classic’ is displayed on a 1964 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When Naomi Barrios and her sister Rosie were teenagers in the 1980s, they would look forward to cruising around Salinas every Friday and Saturday night. They’d roll low and slow, down Alisal Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music begins)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>That was the best. Meeting people, seeing cars, having fun, enjoying the music, flirting with guys. It was fun!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Naomi and Ros would cruise in a burgundy Pontiac Firebird … sporty looking car … with a regal yellow firebird painted on the hood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios:\u003c/strong> After we would cruise a little bit, a couple times, you know, three times. Then we would park, at a Winchell’s Donut place. That was our spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In the parking lot people, mostly from Salina’s Chicano community, would line up their immaculate cars and show off their newest modifications. I’m talking leather seats, shiny rims and precise paint jobs. These cars weren’t simply modes of transportation. They were creative vessels, canvases for artistic expression, one’s pride and joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>It was a big crowd hanging out there outside. Inside everybody ordering, chatting. Everybody had their music on. Again, just looking at their cars, meeting new people, making new friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The whole thing … it was a scene. One that was popping up in communities all across California. That’s because California is the birthplace of lowriding culture … but where exactly that birthplace is has been a point of contention. Some folks say Lowriding started down in L.A., others say things got going in San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A Bay Curious listener asked us to unpack the dispute. You selected the question in a public voting round. So, today on the show, we’ll explore the lowriding origin story … or stories. Then, we’ll learn how lowriding became criminalized, and catch up on where things are at today. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We roll … right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, did lowriding start in San José or L.A.? Or somewhere else all together? To start today’s episode, Bay Curious intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral, headed out to a car show to get the lay of the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> So I’m in a parking lot and there are dozens of cars just parked along both sides, and they’re painted all sorts of beautiful colors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Right behind the palace of fine arts in San Francisco, over a hundred people are gathered for the King of the Streets car show. In the middle of the parking lot, a sparkly, lime green Chevy is parked — with the hood popped revealing a shiny chrome engine. Nearby is a light blue two-seater, with a painting of a nude woman on the hood. The car is balanced on three wheels — one wheel 3 feet in the air — showing off its hydraulic suspension.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>People stand around cars that look like art pieces, drinking, eating, and talking all about the features. A car owner named Carlos brags about his ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos:\u003c/strong> That’s my car right there, El Mas Gangster de Todos. It’s a 1948 Buick Super 50. It’s all original … original chromes, original paint.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> As I walked down rows and rows of lifted, candy painted, and tricked out cars, I bumped into Anthony, who was wiping his white car’s exterior with a towel even though, to me, it already looked pristine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> This is a 1969 Chevy Caprice, it has a 350 small block, uh brand new block. It has hydraulics, it’s lifted front and back — were from the BLVD Kings Car Club.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> And how long have you been working on cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> Oof, since I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> He points to an older man working on the car with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> He basically taught me everything I know, the first car I remember him having was a ’72 Impala, so that basically got me into it. And then I remember growing up in the mission, seeing all the mini-trucks going up and down the mission. So, it’s been all my life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Other people I spoke to shared the same passion for this art form and a deep pride in the lowriding culture. But when I asked about the origins of lowriding, I got a lot of answers …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> Where do you think that it got started?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony: \u003c/strong>Oh, L.A. all day. Everybody knows, lowriding got started in L.A.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 1 at the car show:\u003c/strong> In my hometown, Turlock, California. Cause I was a kid from there! [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 2 at the car show:\u003c/strong> Hmmm, it’s been said San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 3 at the car show:\u003c/strong> From what I understand, it started somewhere in Baja California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert:\u003c/strong> I think it started with every little kid who had a Hot Wheels and stole their mom’s nail polish and started candy painting their hot wheels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out on the streets, Ana didn’t find a straight answer, so we passed it off to reporter Sebastian Miño-Bucheli to dive deeper into the world of lowriding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that within the lowriding community, this matter isn’t settled. So I talked to someone who has been studying lowriding for a long time … Professor John Ulloa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It’s debatable. I mean, it’s hotly debated. Hotly debated. Everybody wants to claim ground zero for low riding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Ulloa is the dean of arts and social science at West Valley College. He says one tough thing about this question is that lowriding has evolved a lot over time …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> A lot of people say, well, it’s a it’s a car with hydraulics on it. But if you’re looking at culture and you’re looking at stance of car, you’re looking at attitude, you’re looking at aesthetics. Um, you know, the clothing and in tandem with the cars and, you know. Just the presence of, you know, how one presents themselves culturally… I think that we really have to be looking at the pachucos of the 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Jazzy mellow music from the 1940s era)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Here comes the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos were a subculture of predominantly Mexican American young people that thrived in East Los Angeles around World War II. Pachuco means “Punk” in Spanish\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They were kids during the Great Depression, and had seen their friends and family members of Mexican descent deported en masse, even those who were American citizens. It was part of the U.S. government’s “repatriation” program … which ultimately saw the mass deportation of about a million people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, were othered and seen as foreign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The U.S., and white society had not treated their families well, so the pachucos were all about resisting assimilation, and instead creating something of their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Pachuco culture is provocative in nature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(music ends)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> During World War II, many Americans were showing their patriotism by rationing … using less gas, eating less food, not buying new clothes. The idea was to save resources for the war effort. But the pachucos … they were rocking the Zoot suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You have an exaggerated aesthetic with ballooned out pants, exaggerated shoulders in the coats. Um, you know, topped off with a nice hat with a big single feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> This clothing style came from jazz culture and it was popular amongst Black, Latino and Filipino youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>So the whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Around this time, in the ’40s, White Americans were hacking their hotrod cars to go fast. So pachucos did the exact opposite. They went low and slow … sending a clear message about their nonconformity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Necessity is the mother of all invention, right so. It was cheap to get a ’30s car and work on it, you know make it your own. You lower it in the back or you lower it all the way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> And this was decades before hydraulics came on the scene, so getting low meant filling the trunk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You slam it quote unquote as we say. Literally. With sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk. What that would do is that would take the car from sitting level, to being lowered in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos also pushed against the grain with candy-colored paint jobs and Chicano art. These cars were a loud and proud statement about their culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Low and slow was the antithesis of hot rod fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> So if we’re looking at who are the OG lowriders, the first to start driving low and slow, Los Angeles and the pachucos have a compelling argument. But then where does this San Jose argument come from? What stake does that city have in lowriding culture?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The San José argument largely has to do with it’s the birthplace of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Mellow 1970s era music)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>In 1977, a guy named Sonny Madrid was a student at San Jose State. With a few friends, he launched \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, a monthly that celebrated Chicano culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It was a lifestyle magazine. It wasn’t just cars and vehicles. It was people. Right …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The magazine had articles about fashion, music, politics. And it was hitting newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The Golden Era, as I’ve timestamped it, was from 1977 to 1982 and those were the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine. People were already lowriding prior to \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, but now what \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine did is it was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>It helped solidify lowriding as a culture. And then it exported that culture making it into a global phenomenon. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine put that on full display.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> There were letters in there from Great Britain, Scandinavia, France, Germany, all over the world. People are saying, “Hey, I just got your magazine in my hand, and this is so cool. We don’t have this here, but as soon as we can, we will.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>And when there’s a global phenomenon going around, there’s always a local take on the phenomenon. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A. or one from San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job. Or a tire size popular in a certain area. Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Blues begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>At the end of the day, Ulloa won’t settle the debate about if lowriding started in Los Angeles … or if what came out of San José and \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine was so unique it was something new altogether …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> Safely we can say that lowriding originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The real question is why are people planting that flag? That’s the deeper question and everybody wants to own history. Especially communities that have historically had their histories systematically erased, swept under the rug, ignored, altered, unheard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music in the clear for a few seconds and then fades)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian, Lowriding has such a fascinating history in this state. And while we can celebrate that it was born here, it hasn’t always been accepted here. Can you explain how lowriding first became criminalized?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>If we go back to the pachucos in the 1940s, they were surrounded by military personnel in Los Angeles waiting to leave to fight in World War II. And the presence of pachucos did not sit well with them. They thought zoot suits were unpatriotic … a sign of gang affiliation. And that’s a narrative that the local press really fed into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>There were a series of violent clashes where off-duty servicemen, police and white civilians attacked the pachucos, known as the Zoot Suit Riots. Anyone caught by the mob were stripped of their zoot suits and beaten. That’s where we start to see pachuco culture become targeted by police. Racial profiling is happening. And it extends to people driving lowriders. This criminalization of lowriding would play out for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In 1982, the state of California passed a law that allowed cities to implement cruising bans … over concerns about traffic, noise and crime. It also set limits on how much a car could be lowered. And then Soon after that cities like Sacramento, Fresno, L.A. and San José all had cruising bans on the books. What happened to the community in those places?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The culture didn’t go anywhere, but people did get creative. People kept lowriding, eventually car shows started happening. These were sanctioned events where the lowriding community could still gather. But ultimately, activists started working to change things. And it worked! Just last year, California passed AB 436, a law that overturns the cruising bans, and lifts that prohibition on how low cars can go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re still seeing how it all plays out on the local level, but this last May, East San José had their first lowrider event since the ban was lifted for Cinco de Mayo. And people I spoke with there were optimistic about the future. And they were really happy to be there that day to share in the community and culture. They said finally we’re able to do this again!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli. Thanks for your reporting on this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music with trumpets begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s podcast The Bay has an excellent episode from when the cruising ban was lifted last year, that gets a lot more into how it was criminalized. It’s called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">California Lifts Decades-Old Ban on Lowrider Cruising.\u003c/a>” We’ll link to it in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Also in our show notes is a link to the web story for this Bay Curious podcast episode — check it out for some awesome photos of that lowrider car show our intern Ana went to, along with several videos KQED has produced about lowriders over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you like what we’re doing here at Bay Curious, please consider becoming a KQED member today. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price … hoping you have a wonderful week. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Did lowriding start in Los Angeles or San José? We explore the history in both places, and touch on the recent decriminalization of lowriding statewide. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1724950797,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":107,"wordCount":3912},"headData":{"title":"The Provocative, Rebellious and Flamboyant Origins of Lowriding | KQED","description":"Did lowriding start in Los Angeles or San José? We explore the history in both places, and touch on the recent decriminalization of lowriding statewide. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"The Provocative, Rebellious and Flamboyant Origins of Lowriding","datePublished":"2024-08-22T03:00:38-07:00","dateModified":"2024-08-29T09:59:57-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC6056589415.mp3","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-12001199","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/12001199/the-provocative-and-flamboyant-origins-of-lowriding","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To some, a lowrider might just be a car with hydraulics, but amongst the most passionate followers, lowriding is a culture with its own aesthetic, attitude and history. Lowriding aficionados can now be found globally — in the streets of France, Japan, Dubai and more — each with their own style. But the origins of this artistic automotive subculture are still hotly debated.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A Bay Curious listener heard that lowriding got its start in both Los Angeles and San José. They asked us to explore the lowriding origin story or stories.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Professor John Ulloa, the Dean of Arts and Social Science at West Valley College, has spent time researching the history of lowriding for his podcast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He says to start at ground zero we have to focus on one group of lowriders, the subculture of \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20230913-pachucos-the-latinx-subculture-that-defied-the-us\">pachucos\u003c/a> in East Los Angeles in the 1940s. Pachuco is Spanish for punk, and the group was made up of primarily Mexican American youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘All my friends know the lowrider’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Pachuco culture is provocative in nature, it really comes out of jazz culture, big band and swing,” Ulloa said. “These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbssocal.org/shows/artbound/pachucos-not-just-mexican-american-males-or-juvenile-delinquents\">were othered and seen as foreign\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Pachucos were children during the Great Depression, and they’d seen friends and family members deported en masse to Mexico — \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12002189/over-1-million-were-deported-to-mexico-nearly-100-years-ago-most-of-them-were-u-s-citizens\">even if they were legal citizens\u003c/a>. So these kids were about fighting assimilation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001113\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001113\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1235\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-800x494.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1020x630.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-160x99.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1536x948.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-34-KQED-1920x1186.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The engine of ‘El Diablo,’ a 1963 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachuco culture developed in the shadow of World War II, at a time when many Americans were rationing gas, food, and not buying new clothes to save resources for the war effort. Rationing was seen as patriotic, but the pachuco style was extravagant. They wore zoot suits: a clothing style from jazz culture that was popular with Black, Latino and Filipino youth. It featured ballooned pants, exaggerated shoulder pads, and nice hats topped off with a single large feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American,” Ulloa said. “It was the antithesis of the white Anglo picket fence.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001111\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001111\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-32-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">At the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Pachucos also went against the grain when it came to American car culture. In the late ’40s and early ’50s, white Americans were hacking their hot rod cars to go fast. But the pachucos were doing the exact opposite. They bought less expensive, older cars and customized them to go low and slow. Before the advent of hydraulics, that meant making the car heavier to force it lower to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You ‘slam it,’” said Ulloa, “Literally with sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding is compelling. But, Ulloa said, the San José scene is extremely significant in terms of lowrider history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001107\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001107\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-21-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tracy Gallardo sits in her dream car, a 1958 Chevy Impala, at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Do You Know the Way to San Jose?’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“The San José argument largely has to do with [it being] the birthplace of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/forum/2010101875250/san-jose-founded-lowrider-magazine-icon-of-chicano-car-culture-goes-out-of-print\">\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine\u003c/a>,” Ulloa said. “It was a lifestyle magazine, it wasn’t just cars and vehicles — it was people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1977 while studying at San Jose State, Sonny Madrid launched \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine, a monthly publication that celebrated Chicano culture. A small staff, including some of Madrid’s friends, wrote articles about fashion, music, politics — it was a hit at the newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001102\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001102\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-7-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The steering wheel of a Buick Regal with ‘SF’ on it at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Ulloa stamps the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>being published as the “Golden Era,” because people were already lowriding but its circulation was able to reach audiences beyond San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“\u003cem>Lowrider \u003c/em>magazine was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest,” said Ulloa. “The youth had \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, whether they were lowriding or not — they were able to see themselves at a car show as participants.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001105\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001105\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-13-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Monte Carlo parked on three wheels outside of the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> solidified lowriding as a culture in California, and then the circulation of the magazine went international. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine was filled with submissions from readers in Great Britain, France, all over the world, giving praise for the magazine’s content.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When there’s a global phenomenon, there’s always a local take on it. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A., or San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job, or a tire size popular in a certain area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001110\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001110\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-31-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A 1963 Chevy Impala enters the Palace of Fine Arts during the annual King of the Streets car show on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark. Ulloa won’t settle the debate about the origins starting in Los Angeles or San José. He said it originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does. Everyone wants to own a piece of history, he said, especially when there are communities who have had their histories systemically erased.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To learn more about lowriding, check out these episodes of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/arts/13923205/best-of-roll-with-us-a-sisterhood-of-lowriding\">Rightnowish \u003c/a>and \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/trulyca/99/everything-comes-from-the-streets\">Truly CA\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>And if you want to know how lowriding — once banned in California — finally became legal, check out this episode of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">The Bay\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12001112\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12001112\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/20240817_LOWRIDERS_GC-33-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A car with a sign reading ‘I’m not old, I’m classic’ is displayed on a 1964 GMC truck at the annual King of the Streets car show at the Palace of Fine Arts on Aug. 17, 2024. \u003ccite>(Gina Castro/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When Naomi Barrios and her sister Rosie were teenagers in the 1980s, they would look forward to cruising around Salinas every Friday and Saturday night. They’d roll low and slow, down Alisal Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music begins)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>That was the best. Meeting people, seeing cars, having fun, enjoying the music, flirting with guys. It was fun!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Naomi and Ros would cruise in a burgundy Pontiac Firebird … sporty looking car … with a regal yellow firebird painted on the hood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios:\u003c/strong> After we would cruise a little bit, a couple times, you know, three times. Then we would park, at a Winchell’s Donut place. That was our spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> In the parking lot people, mostly from Salina’s Chicano community, would line up their immaculate cars and show off their newest modifications. I’m talking leather seats, shiny rims and precise paint jobs. These cars weren’t simply modes of transportation. They were creative vessels, canvases for artistic expression, one’s pride and joy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Naomi Barrios: \u003c/strong>It was a big crowd hanging out there outside. Inside everybody ordering, chatting. Everybody had their music on. Again, just looking at their cars, meeting new people, making new friends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The whole thing … it was a scene. One that was popping up in communities all across California. That’s because California is the birthplace of lowriding culture … but where exactly that birthplace is has been a point of contention. Some folks say Lowriding started down in L.A., others say things got going in San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> A Bay Curious listener asked us to unpack the dispute. You selected the question in a public voting round. So, today on the show, we’ll explore the lowriding origin story … or stories. Then, we’ll learn how lowriding became criminalized, and catch up on where things are at today. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. We roll … right after this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, did lowriding start in San José or L.A.? Or somewhere else all together? To start today’s episode, Bay Curious intern, Ana De Almeida Amaral, headed out to a car show to get the lay of the land.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> So I’m in a parking lot and there are dozens of cars just parked along both sides, and they’re painted all sorts of beautiful colors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>Right behind the palace of fine arts in San Francisco, over a hundred people are gathered for the King of the Streets car show. In the middle of the parking lot, a sparkly, lime green Chevy is parked — with the hood popped revealing a shiny chrome engine. Nearby is a light blue two-seater, with a painting of a nude woman on the hood. The car is balanced on three wheels — one wheel 3 feet in the air — showing off its hydraulic suspension.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral: \u003c/strong>People stand around cars that look like art pieces, drinking, eating, and talking all about the features. A car owner named Carlos brags about his ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carlos:\u003c/strong> That’s my car right there, El Mas Gangster de Todos. It’s a 1948 Buick Super 50. It’s all original … original chromes, original paint.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> As I walked down rows and rows of lifted, candy painted, and tricked out cars, I bumped into Anthony, who was wiping his white car’s exterior with a towel even though, to me, it already looked pristine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> This is a 1969 Chevy Caprice, it has a 350 small block, uh brand new block. It has hydraulics, it’s lifted front and back — were from the BLVD Kings Car Club.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> And how long have you been working on cars?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> Oof, since I was a kid.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> He points to an older man working on the car with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony:\u003c/strong> He basically taught me everything I know, the first car I remember him having was a ’72 Impala, so that basically got me into it. And then I remember growing up in the mission, seeing all the mini-trucks going up and down the mission. So, it’s been all my life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral:\u003c/strong> Other people I spoke to shared the same passion for this art form and a deep pride in the lowriding culture. But when I asked about the origins of lowriding, I got a lot of answers …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ana De Almeida Amaral (in tape):\u003c/strong> Where do you think that it got started?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anthony: \u003c/strong>Oh, L.A. all day. Everybody knows, lowriding got started in L.A.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 1 at the car show:\u003c/strong> In my hometown, Turlock, California. Cause I was a kid from there! [laughs]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 2 at the car show:\u003c/strong> Hmmm, it’s been said San José.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man 3 at the car show:\u003c/strong> From what I understand, it started somewhere in Baja California.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert:\u003c/strong> I think it started with every little kid who had a Hot Wheels and stole their mom’s nail polish and started candy painting their hot wheels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Out on the streets, Ana didn’t find a straight answer, so we passed it off to reporter Sebastian Miño-Bucheli to dive deeper into the world of lowriding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> It’s clear that within the lowriding community, this matter isn’t settled. So I talked to someone who has been studying lowriding for a long time … Professor John Ulloa.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It’s debatable. I mean, it’s hotly debated. Hotly debated. Everybody wants to claim ground zero for low riding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Ulloa is the dean of arts and social science at West Valley College. He says one tough thing about this question is that lowriding has evolved a lot over time …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> A lot of people say, well, it’s a it’s a car with hydraulics on it. But if you’re looking at culture and you’re looking at stance of car, you’re looking at attitude, you’re looking at aesthetics. Um, you know, the clothing and in tandem with the cars and, you know. Just the presence of, you know, how one presents themselves culturally… I think that we really have to be looking at the pachucos of the 1940s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Jazzy mellow music from the 1940s era)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Here comes the argument for Los Angeles being the birthplace of lowriding …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos were a subculture of predominantly Mexican American young people that thrived in East Los Angeles around World War II. Pachuco means “Punk” in Spanish\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They were kids during the Great Depression, and had seen their friends and family members of Mexican descent deported en masse, even those who were American citizens. It was part of the U.S. government’s “repatriation” program … which ultimately saw the mass deportation of about a million people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>These kids, by a white dominant paradigm, were othered and seen as foreign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The U.S., and white society had not treated their families well, so the pachucos were all about resisting assimilation, and instead creating something of their own.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Pachuco culture is provocative in nature.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(music ends)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> During World War II, many Americans were showing their patriotism by rationing … using less gas, eating less food, not buying new clothes. The idea was to save resources for the war effort. But the pachucos … they were rocking the Zoot suit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You have an exaggerated aesthetic with ballooned out pants, exaggerated shoulders in the coats. Um, you know, topped off with a nice hat with a big single feather.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> This clothing style came from jazz culture and it was popular amongst Black, Latino and Filipino youth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>So the whole presentation was really flamboyant and seen as not only criminalized but completely un-American.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> Around this time, in the ’40s, White Americans were hacking their hotrod cars to go fast. So pachucos did the exact opposite. They went low and slow … sending a clear message about their nonconformity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Necessity is the mother of all invention, right so. It was cheap to get a ’30s car and work on it, you know make it your own. You lower it in the back or you lower it all the way around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> And this was decades before hydraulics came on the scene, so getting low meant filling the trunk.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>You slam it quote unquote as we say. Literally. With sandbags, with rocks, with cinder blocks, with bricks, whatever you could find that was heavy to put in the trunk. What that would do is that would take the car from sitting level, to being lowered in the back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> The pachucos also pushed against the grain with candy-colored paint jobs and Chicano art. These cars were a loud and proud statement about their culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa: \u003c/strong>Low and slow was the antithesis of hot rod fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli:\u003c/strong> So if we’re looking at who are the OG lowriders, the first to start driving low and slow, Los Angeles and the pachucos have a compelling argument. But then where does this San Jose argument come from? What stake does that city have in lowriding culture?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The San José argument largely has to do with it’s the birthplace of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Mellow 1970s era music)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>In 1977, a guy named Sonny Madrid was a student at San Jose State. With a few friends, he launched \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, a monthly that celebrated Chicano culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> It was a lifestyle magazine. It wasn’t just cars and vehicles. It was people. Right …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The magazine had articles about fashion, music, politics. And it was hitting newsstands at just the right time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The Golden Era, as I’ve timestamped it, was from 1977 to 1982 and those were the first five years of \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine. People were already lowriding prior to \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine, but now what \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine did is it was able to give everyone access to see what people were doing all over the Southwest, right?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>It helped solidify lowriding as a culture. And then it exported that culture making it into a global phenomenon. The Letters to the Editor section of the magazine put that on full display.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> There were letters in there from Great Britain, Scandinavia, France, Germany, all over the world. People are saying, “Hey, I just got your magazine in my hand, and this is so cool. We don’t have this here, but as soon as we can, we will.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>And when there’s a global phenomenon going around, there’s always a local take on the phenomenon. Each city adds their own flare to lowriding. People in the know can often spot a Bay Area lowrider versus one from L.A. or one from San Antonio, or Japan. Maybe it’s a custom paint job. Or a tire size popular in a certain area. Everywhere lowriding goes, the community leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Blues begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>At the end of the day, Ulloa won’t settle the debate about if lowriding started in Los Angeles … or if what came out of San José and \u003cem>Lowrider\u003c/em> magazine was so unique it was something new altogether …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> Safely we can say that lowriding originates in the Mexican American experience in the southwestern part of the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>To Ulloa, where lowriding started doesn’t matter. But why people care does.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Ulloa:\u003c/strong> The real question is why are people planting that flag? That’s the deeper question and everybody wants to own history. Especially communities that have historically had their histories systematically erased, swept under the rug, ignored, altered, unheard.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music in the clear for a few seconds and then fades)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian, Lowriding has such a fascinating history in this state. And while we can celebrate that it was born here, it hasn’t always been accepted here. Can you explain how lowriding first became criminalized?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>If we go back to the pachucos in the 1940s, they were surrounded by military personnel in Los Angeles waiting to leave to fight in World War II. And the presence of pachucos did not sit well with them. They thought zoot suits were unpatriotic … a sign of gang affiliation. And that’s a narrative that the local press really fed into.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>There were a series of violent clashes where off-duty servicemen, police and white civilians attacked the pachucos, known as the Zoot Suit Riots. Anyone caught by the mob were stripped of their zoot suits and beaten. That’s where we start to see pachuco culture become targeted by police. Racial profiling is happening. And it extends to people driving lowriders. This criminalization of lowriding would play out for decades to come.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In 1982, the state of California passed a law that allowed cities to implement cruising bans … over concerns about traffic, noise and crime. It also set limits on how much a car could be lowered. And then Soon after that cities like Sacramento, Fresno, L.A. and San José all had cruising bans on the books. What happened to the community in those places?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>The culture didn’t go anywhere, but people did get creative. People kept lowriding, eventually car shows started happening. These were sanctioned events where the lowriding community could still gather. But ultimately, activists started working to change things. And it worked! Just last year, California passed AB 436, a law that overturns the cruising bans, and lifts that prohibition on how low cars can go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We’re still seeing how it all plays out on the local level, but this last May, East San José had their first lowrider event since the ban was lifted for Cinco de Mayo. And people I spoke with there were optimistic about the future. And they were really happy to be there that day to share in the community and culture. They said finally we’re able to do this again!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli. Thanks for your reporting on this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sebastian Miño-Bucheli: \u003c/strong>You’re welcome.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(Music with trumpets begins)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s podcast The Bay has an excellent episode from when the cruising ban was lifted last year, that gets a lot more into how it was criminalized. It’s called “\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11966254/california-lifts-decades-old-ban-on-lowrider-cruising\">California Lifts Decades-Old Ban on Lowrider Cruising.\u003c/a>” We’ll link to it in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Also in our show notes is a link to the web story for this Bay Curious podcast episode — check it out for some awesome photos of that lowrider car show our intern Ana went to, along with several videos KQED has produced about lowriders over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. If you like what we’re doing here at Bay Curious, please consider becoming a KQED member today. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This episode was produced by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Christopher Beale, and me Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Katrina Schwartz, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price … hoping you have a wonderful week. Bye!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/12001199/the-provocative-and-flamboyant-origins-of-lowriding","authors":["11764"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_223","news_31795","news_8"],"tags":["news_32662","news_18426","news_27626","news_29792"],"featImg":"news_12001109","label":"news_33523"},"news_12000061":{"type":"posts","id":"news_12000061","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"12000061","score":null,"sort":[1723716055000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"pretty-but-not-nice-californias-invasive-ice-plant","title":"Pretty, but Not 'Nice': California's Invasive Ice Plant","publishDate":1723716055,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Pretty, but Not ‘Nice’: California’s Invasive Ice Plant | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant has many monikers: \u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em>, highway ice plant or simply, sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. The fleshy green succulent has finger-like, three-sided leaves. It blooms with purple and yellow flowers in the spring. Most agree it’s a pretty plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side. It’s an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/span>Wetland ecologist Lorraine Parsons has a joke about invasive species: “Does that plant species play nicely in the sandbox?” she told me while observing rolling dunes covered with ice plant at Point Reyes National Seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer for this succulent is a decisive “no.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> competes with other plants for basic resources like\u003ca href=\"https://www.calflora.org/app/taxon?crn=1660\"> light, water and space\u003c/a>. And it usually wins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After KQED listener Tom McMahon moved here in 2016, he was surprised to learn that the existence of ice plant in California barely predates the state’s railroads and highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the past century, the succulent has blanketed some of California’s most beautiful seaside places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMahon wanted to know how the freeway plant got here in the first place, so he asked Bay Curious to look into its origin story. He also wanted to know about other invasive plants that don’t “play nice” with California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The beach invader\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From Crescent City to San Diego, ice plant can be seen in some of California’s most iconic coastal areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Point Reyes National Seashore, there are miles and miles of it, despite the fact that park staff have been organizing removal events to control it for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one recent work party in June, around 10 employees and volunteers tore out ice plant just north of the lighthouse. Parsons said they chose the area because it wasn’t completely overrun, and therefore, there’s still hope that the sparse populations of native plants can bounce back after the removal of ice plant and European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parsons’ coworkers worked their way along the ground on their hands and knees, pulling out long strands of ice plant. They opted for a manual removal method rather than using herbicide, which would have affected other plants and water sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990217\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990217\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Francesca Dezza Parada (left) and Celeste Chavez, bilingual environmental educators with the Point Reyes National Seashore Association, remove ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Because it grows in long, crawling strands, fellow weed killers have been known to enjoy friendly competition over who can remove the longest strand of ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll end up with something as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish,” park ranger Sierra Frisbie said with a laugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990225\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990225\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie (left) and biological science technician Miriam Golding look at native plans in an area where ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, was removed at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the beach backdrop at Point Reyes is gorgeous, and the weed crusaders are having a good time, long-term ice plant eradication here is a permanent management problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all started, Parsons said, when the plant was intentionally sown here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes from moving into nearby pastures. Sandy dune ecosystems naturally shift, and ice plant helps hold them in place by setting down roots along viney, ground-hugging stems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant also grows fast — about three feet laterally a year. So whenever ice plant shows up, it can pretty quickly form a dense carpet, holding the soil together underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After decades of growth at Point Reyes, Parsons said, about 60 percent of the coastal area has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this hillside near a beach just north of the lighthouse, Parsons’ team is trying to make space for the native\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/tidestroms-lupine-lupinus-tidestromii\"> Tidestrom’s Lupine\u003c/a>, which is at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The seeds of the lupine, another low-to-the-ground dune-lover with lavender flowers, are being eaten by mice, which have great cover in the nearby ice plant and beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Native deer mice come, and they literally clip off the seams that have the seed on it, and they tug them off. And that’s like a food source for them,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife. For example, another plant here, the\u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/Monardella-undulata-(Curlyleaf-Monardella)\"> Curlyleaf Monardella\u003c/a>, is a primary nectar source for the endangered\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/myrtles-silverspot-butterfly-speyeria-zerene-myrtleae\"> Myrtle’s Silverspot\u003c/a> butterfly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990859\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1284\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1020x682.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Native plants grow in a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4, 2024, that has been cleared of an invasive ice plant. The top row from left to right: curly-leaved Monardella (Monardella sinuata ssp. nigrescens), coast Indian paintbrush (Castilleja affinis) and beach layia (Layia carnosa). The bottom row from left to right are: mock heather (Ericameria ericoides), Tidestrom’s lupine (Lupinus tidestromii) and California poppy (Eschscholzia californica). This California poppy is the state flower. It’s very common around California, but usually, the flower is solid orange. The ones on the dunes tend to be much more yellow. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And birds such as the Western Snowy Plover, which are already\u003ca href=\"https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/species/8035\"> threatened\u003c/a>, are also made vulnerable by the nearby ice plant and beach grass. The short, white-bellied shorebird nests right in the sand on the beach. Their predators, ravens and coyotes, hide out in the thick cover of the invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> can also change the microbiota of the soil, making it less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. So Parsons says removing an area infested by ice plants can just make space for “secondary invaders, instead of luring native flora back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all those reasons, the staff at Point Reyes National Seashore choose their battles wisely when deciding which dune habitat to restore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant,” Parsons said, so they choose areas that aren’t completely overrun. “Because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck … It’s a lot easier to reestablish a native community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Ice plant’s origins\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline and can also be seen in residential home gardens (where it is more welcome as an ornamental or lawn substitute).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> is not just a problem in California, though. It’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since people have been buying plants and gardening, plants have been traded across international borders, UC Santa Barbara ecology professor\u003ca href=\"https://www.eemb.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/dantonio\"> Carla D’Antonio said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant first came from South Africa, probably in the 1930s, according to D’Antonio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990222\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990222\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wetland biologist Lorraine Parsons removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Caltrans and other transportation engineers are\u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Plants/Dont-Plant-Me/Iceplant\"> widely reported\u003c/a> to have planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand,” D’Antonio said. “It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a turning point with ice plant in the 1980s and ’90s, D’Antonio said, when natural area managers started not wanting the plant around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful…endemic coastal poppies and other things because \u003cem>Carpobrotus\u003c/em> was growing everywhere,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Other invasives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only invasive plant crowding out California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/arundo-donax-profile/\">\u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, a giant reed used for roofing material and musical instruments,\u003ca href=\"https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/giant-reed\"> was brought to California in the early 1800s\u003c/a>. \u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em> is particularly troublesome. It turns river areas into fuel for fires and grows back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight its spread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California — some of them brought intentionally, others accidentally — most of them don’t alter their environments as much as Arundo and ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes,” D’Antonio said. “But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990216\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, grows at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Preventing ‘invasions’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The good news is that in the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange, D’Antonio said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And more locally, park rangers are using a ‘boots on the ground’ approach to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rachel Kesel, a senior environmental scientist with California State Parks, is an evangelist for catching plant invaders before they take over entire coastlines. She’s trained park staff all over the Bay Area in early detection work, teaching them how to identify, map, and get rid of invasive plants before they become unmanageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990219\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990219\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One morning in June, Kesel trained a handful of park managers and volunteers at Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve in the Russian River area of Sonoma County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She warned them about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass or\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/ehrharta-erecta-profile/\"> \u003cem>Ehrharta erect\u003c/em>a\u003c/a>, which she saw crop up all over Mt. Tam when she worked there for the better part of a decade. She doesn’t want the grass to invade these redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really is probably the highest priority for what to look for,” she said to the group. “It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing, out of our neighborhoods.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although this little blade of grass looks harmless, Kesel takes it very seriously. It has the potential to take over the forest floor; it can grow in just 2% light as well as on a sunny, soil-deprived beach. The veldt grass grows between other plants, which makes it look messy and hard to pull out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12000167\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12000167\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1475\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-800x590.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1020x752.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1536x1133.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1920x1416.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Kesel, senior environmental scientist for California State Parks, holds up a piece of invasive panic veldtgrass or Ehrharta erecta, in Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve during a training with local park workers. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see,” Kesel said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hunting down and rooting out invasives may seem like a lot of effort. But to anyone who stands among the redwoods on a hot day and soaks in the beauty of the clover-shaped sorrel on the forest floor, it probably doesn’t seem like too much to ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you want to get nerdy about the invasive plants in your area, go to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/\">Cal-IPC.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re inspired to plant California natives in your neighborhood, \u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/\">Calscape offers design ideas and resources\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When you think of quintessential California experiences, driving down Highway 1 is pretty tough to beat. It was one of the first things Tom McMahon did when he first visited the Bay Area in 2016.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon: \u003c/strong>I rented a car, and I drove from San Francisco down to Seacliff. And on the way, I actually stopped along a few spots. And one of them was like, Poplar Beach. And, you know, one of the things that kind of jumped out was all these green plants with the purple and yellow flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What he was seeing was ice plant — a fleshy green succulent with finger-like, three-sided leaves. It grows low to the ground and spreads out over large areas, like a carpet. In spring its pink, purple, or yellow flowers burst open — its petals spreading like little fireworks. Quite frankly, it’s gorgeous! But it’s got a dark side. McMahon started studying plants with his 5-year-old daughter recently and learned this charming-looking plant is invasive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> And this has been something that I’ve seen everywhere, and it’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> McMahon lives in California now, and he and his daughter go on walks and see ice plant all over — it’s often used in landscaping in place of grass. She’s been asking: “If it’s invasive, why did someone put it there?” and McMahon doesn’t have a great answer. So, he asked Bay Curious for an assist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’d like to know, why are the ice plants here, who brought them here? What was their purpose? And what other things do we see every day that are actually invasive and potentially harming our local plant life and wildlife?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re delving into the world of invasive plants. We’ll answer McMahon’s questions about ice plant and explore a few other troublesome flora. That’s all just head, stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer Tom McMahon’s questions about ice plant and other notorious invasives. KQED producer Pauline Bartolone got really in the weeds, hardy har har. Enjoy the ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Ice plant has many monikers … Carpobrotus edulis, highway ice plant, or simply sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. From as far north as Crescent City all the way down to San Diego. When it comes to invasive species in California, ice plant is iconic. And so are the areas it invades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[Wind sounds and crashing waves]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Like the Point Reyes seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So that’s all ice plant! \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Oh wow, okay, that whole ridge …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>That whole ridge is ice plant over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>I went to the rolling dunes of Point Reyes to meet Lorraine Parsons. She’s a wetland ecologist with the National Seashore. There are miles and miles of ice plant here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> If you drive Sir Francis Drake all the way out to the lighthouse and you look out toward the ocean, many areas are just this dense carpet of ice plant and literally no other plant species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Parsons is here today with around 10 employees and volunteers to tear out ice plant uphill from a beach near the lighthouse. Here, they still have a chance to protect some vulnerable wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> And we still have some native plant species, but they’re being pushed out by the ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> National seashore staff have been organizing work parties like this for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sound of plants rustling, breaking]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a pretty easy plant to pull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Biotechnician Danna Ojeda is on her hands and knees ripping out ice plant, drawing her hand back like she’s pulling a plug out of a wall. Technically, you could kill ice plant with herbicide, but that can affect other plants and water sources. Ojeda says the trickiest part about tearing it out is just making sure you don’t remove other plants too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> So you just pull it, and since it’s sand, it comes right off. Just make sure the roots don’t go in between any of the plants so you don’t accidentally bring them up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Park ranger Sierra Frisbie adds her ice plant debris to a big pile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sierra Frisbie: \u003c/strong>During a volunteer event, we try to have a competition of who can get the longest piece of ice plant and you’ll end up with something, you know, as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish or something. It’s kinda your catch of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>While it’s a gorgeous sunny day out here, this is a beast of a project and a permanent management problem. Parsons says ice plant was actually planted here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes, which naturally shift, from moving into nearby pastures. Ice plant is a good soil stabilizer. But it grows laterally about three feet a year. So after decades of growth, Parsons says, about 60 percent of the coastal area in Point Reyes has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass. They’re struggling to get rid of it in areas where endangered native plants like Tidestrom’s lupine are at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So this is the Tidestrom’s lupine here … Again, this is a short-lived perennial plant species in the pea family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Tidestrom’s lupine is another low-to-the-ground beach-loving plant with little lavender flowers. But here, its seeds are being eaten by mice, which hide out in the nearby ice plant and European beach grass. In many areas, it hasn’t been growing back\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>It has historically stretched from Sonoma County near Goat Rock all the way down to Monterey. And, you know, over that time, populations have been lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife in an ecosystem. For example, another plant here, the Curlyleaf Monardella, is a primary nectar source for an endangered butterfly. And birds such as the snowy plover, a tiny white-bellied thing, are also threatened. They nest right in the sand on the beach. And the nearby ice plant and beach grass provide cover for their predators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> So, like, ravens can be in there obviously like coyotes, other animals like that, it makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And the bad news about ice plant gets worse. The invasive can also change the soil conditions, so it is less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. For all those reasons, when it comes to these eradication parties, Parsons says they have to choose their battles wisely. They don’t even bother with the completely overrun areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> We realize we’re not going to get rid of all this beach grass, and we’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant. So I think we’re just focusing on these like moderately to sparsely invaded areas because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck. You’ve already got the native plants here. It’s a lot easier to get, to reestablish a native community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline. It’s not just a problem in California, though, it’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina, Australia. UC Santa Barbara ecology professor Carla D’Antonio says that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species that they brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>D’Antonio says there isn’t a lot of documentation about the beginnings of Carpobrotus edulis in the U.S. but there’s a consensus about its origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>It came from South Africa. It appears to have come probably, in the 1930s. It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand. It was planted along highways. It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Ice plant’s long and viny stems stay close to the ground as they grow, and set down many different roots along the way. The tangley mat keeps soil together underneath. That’s why Caltrans and other engineers planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes. But when managers of natural areas like Asilomar in Monterey started getting concerned about ice plant, D’Antonio decided to do her doctoral research on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>Awareness really started to grow that this thing was showing up everywhere. People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful kind of endemic coastal poppies and other things because carpobrotus was growing everywhere.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nPauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only non-native plant bent on world domination. Our question asker, Tom McMahon wanted to know about others on the most-wanted list. I’d say Arundo donax would definitely be in that category. The giant reed was brought to California in the early 1800s and used for roofing material and musical instruments. Arundo donax is particularly gnarly, turning river areas into fuel for fire and growing back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight it. All in all, D’Antonio says, thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California. Some of them intentionally, others accidentally. Most of them play nice with native plants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio:\u003c/strong> So it isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes. But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So how do we stop those world-dominating plants? D’Antonio says for the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange. And more locally, park rangers are using boots on the ground approaches to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I brought a couple of things with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>People like Rachel Kesel in Sonoma County. The park ranger is an evangelist for catching plant invaders early before they take over entire coastlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I think everybody probably knows that all folks engaged in land management spend a lot of time and money on invasive plants. And what the early detection of invasive plants approach does is try to shift some of that, hopefully, new investment of time and money that you are already spending to plants that are newer on the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel has trained park staff all over the Bay Area to find invasive plants early. Today, she’s in Armstrong Redwoods State Reserve in the Russian River warning a handful of park staff and volunteers about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass, or Ehrharta erecta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing out of our neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes this little blade of grass very seriously. She saw Ehrharta crop up all over Mt. Tam, where she worked for the better part of a decade. This thing sounds like it could withstand an apocalypse. It can grow on a forest floor in just 2 percent light, or a sunny, soil deprived beach. It grows between other plants, which makes it hard to pull out. And Kesel says it just looks messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[footsteps]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes a couple of park personnel out on a detection walk, to show them how they can identify the plant, and map it, so scientists can track its footprint over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> Go, team! Now, when I come upon something like this, I’m always gonna take a twirl around it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Is that it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> No, that is a melaka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> It’s a native grass, thankfully. But. Good eye, you’re noticing grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Apparently, I can’t tell the difference between blades of grass, but Kesel seems to have developed a hawk eye for this work. When we did come across the pesky blades of grass, she broke out a plastic bag to transport the undesirables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> I know I look paranoid, but it is dropping its seed, which is why I have it in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[rustling of plastic bag]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So now you go in the bag, my friend …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, she holds up the blade of grass like it’s a contaminated Q-tip so the park workers can get a closer look. She takes out her mini magnifying glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So, all right. If we look at the base. Of course, this one isn’t very red because, like I said, color is a fickle character.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, she shows the park workers how to map other invasives using a program on her phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>Go to my location. Why are you being so dumb? I talk back to my device a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> During this trip, part of me felt like, wow, what a lot of effort to remove just a little blade of grass. But on the way out of Armstrong that day, I took a moment to stand under the shade of the redwoods and soak in the beauty. The forest floor was covered in this really pretty, delicate-looking sorrel. It’s a clover-like plant a few inches off the ground. That’s when it struck me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> I can really see why people want to preserve this place. The air is so still and soft, and I imagine much cooler than outside this redwood forest. I could spend all day here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>When it comes to preserving that feeling of the redwoods, managing invasives doesn’t seem like too much to ask. After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone. Big thanks to Tom McMahon and his five-year-old daughter for the question. And to the California invasive plant council for their expertise on this story. If you want to learn more about invasive plants or get involved in one of those removal work parties – we’ve got a lot of resources for you online at BayCurious.org. We’ll drop a link in our show notes too. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support our show by becoming a member! Give today at donate.kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"California's ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side: It's an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1723748354,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":124,"wordCount":4768},"headData":{"title":"Pretty, but Not 'Nice': California's Invasive Ice Plant | KQED","description":"California's ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side: It's an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Pretty, but Not 'Nice': California's Invasive Ice Plant","datePublished":"2024-08-15T03:00:55-07:00","dateModified":"2024-08-15T11:59:14-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC2157052942.mp3","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-12000061","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/12000061/pretty-but-not-nice-californias-invasive-ice-plant","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant has many monikers: \u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em>, highway ice plant or simply, sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. The fleshy green succulent has finger-like, three-sided leaves. It blooms with purple and yellow flowers in the spring. Most agree it’s a pretty plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But this ubiquitous coastal plant has a dark side. It’s an invasive species that blankets dune landscapes, squeezing out native plants and critters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/span>Wetland ecologist Lorraine Parsons has a joke about invasive species: “Does that plant species play nicely in the sandbox?” she told me while observing rolling dunes covered with ice plant at Point Reyes National Seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer for this succulent is a decisive “no.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> competes with other plants for basic resources like\u003ca href=\"https://www.calflora.org/app/taxon?crn=1660\"> light, water and space\u003c/a>. And it usually wins.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After KQED listener Tom McMahon moved here in 2016, he was surprised to learn that the existence of ice plant in California barely predates the state’s railroads and highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But over the past century, the succulent has blanketed some of California’s most beautiful seaside places.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McMahon wanted to know how the freeway plant got here in the first place, so he asked Bay Curious to look into its origin story. He also wanted to know about other invasive plants that don’t “play nice” with California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cb>The beach invader\u003c/b>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From Crescent City to San Diego, ice plant can be seen in some of California’s most iconic coastal areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At Point Reyes National Seashore, there are miles and miles of it, despite the fact that park staff have been organizing removal events to control it for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At one recent work party in June, around 10 employees and volunteers tore out ice plant just north of the lighthouse. Parsons said they chose the area because it wasn’t completely overrun, and therefore, there’s still hope that the sparse populations of native plants can bounce back after the removal of ice plant and European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Parsons’ coworkers worked their way along the ground on their hands and knees, pulling out long strands of ice plant. They opted for a manual removal method rather than using herbicide, which would have affected other plants and water sources.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990217\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990217\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-13-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Francesca Dezza Parada (left) and Celeste Chavez, bilingual environmental educators with the Point Reyes National Seashore Association, remove ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Because it grows in long, crawling strands, fellow weed killers have been known to enjoy friendly competition over who can remove the longest strand of ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll end up with something as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish,” park ranger Sierra Frisbie said with a laugh.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990225\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990225\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-67-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie (left) and biological science technician Miriam Golding look at native plans in an area where ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, was removed at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>While the beach backdrop at Point Reyes is gorgeous, and the weed crusaders are having a good time, long-term ice plant eradication here is a permanent management problem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It all started, Parsons said, when the plant was intentionally sown here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes from moving into nearby pastures. Sandy dune ecosystems naturally shift, and ice plant helps hold them in place by setting down roots along viney, ground-hugging stems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant also grows fast — about three feet laterally a year. So whenever ice plant shows up, it can pretty quickly form a dense carpet, holding the soil together underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After decades of growth at Point Reyes, Parsons said, about 60 percent of the coastal area has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In this hillside near a beach just north of the lighthouse, Parsons’ team is trying to make space for the native\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/tidestroms-lupine-lupinus-tidestromii\"> Tidestrom’s Lupine\u003c/a>, which is at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The seeds of the lupine, another low-to-the-ground dune-lover with lavender flowers, are being eaten by mice, which have great cover in the nearby ice plant and beach grass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>“\u003c/strong>Native deer mice come, and they literally clip off the seams that have the seed on it, and they tug them off. And that’s like a food source for them,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife. For example, another plant here, the\u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/Monardella-undulata-(Curlyleaf-Monardella)\"> Curlyleaf Monardella\u003c/a>, is a primary nectar source for the endangered\u003ca href=\"https://www.fws.gov/species/myrtles-silverspot-butterfly-speyeria-zerene-myrtleae\"> Myrtle’s Silverspot\u003c/a> butterfly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990859\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990859\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1284\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-800x535.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1020x682.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-105-BL-1536x1027.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Native plants grow in a section of dunes at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4, 2024, that has been cleared of an invasive ice plant. The top row from left to right: curly-leaved Monardella (Monardella sinuata ssp. nigrescens), coast Indian paintbrush (Castilleja affinis) and beach layia (Layia carnosa). The bottom row from left to right are: mock heather (Ericameria ericoides), Tidestrom’s lupine (Lupinus tidestromii) and California poppy (Eschscholzia californica). This California poppy is the state flower. It’s very common around California, but usually, the flower is solid orange. The ones on the dunes tend to be much more yellow. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>And birds such as the Western Snowy Plover, which are already\u003ca href=\"https://ecos.fws.gov/ecp/species/8035\"> threatened\u003c/a>, are also made vulnerable by the nearby ice plant and beach grass. The short, white-bellied shorebird nests right in the sand on the beach. Their predators, ravens and coyotes, hide out in the thick cover of the invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest,” Parsons said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> can also change the microbiota of the soil, making it less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. So Parsons says removing an area infested by ice plants can just make space for “secondary invaders, instead of luring native flora back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all those reasons, the staff at Point Reyes National Seashore choose their battles wisely when deciding which dune habitat to restore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant,” Parsons said, so they choose areas that aren’t completely overrun. “Because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck … It’s a lot easier to reestablish a native community.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Ice plant’s origins\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline and can also be seen in residential home gardens (where it is more welcome as an ornamental or lawn substitute).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Carpobrotus edulis\u003c/em> is not just a problem in California, though. It’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina and Australia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ever since people have been buying plants and gardening, plants have been traded across international borders, UC Santa Barbara ecology professor\u003ca href=\"https://www.eemb.ucsb.edu/people/faculty/dantonio\"> Carla D’Antonio said\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ice plant first came from South Africa, probably in the 1930s, according to D’Antonio.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990222\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990222\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-45-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Wetland biologist Lorraine Parsons removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Caltrans and other transportation engineers are\u003ca href=\"https://wildlife.ca.gov/Conservation/Plants/Dont-Plant-Me/Iceplant\"> widely reported\u003c/a> to have planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand,” D’Antonio said. “It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There was a turning point with ice plant in the 1980s and ’90s, D’Antonio said, when natural area managers started not wanting the plant around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful…endemic coastal poppies and other things because \u003cem>Carpobrotus\u003c/em> was growing everywhere,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Other invasives\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only invasive plant crowding out California natives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/arundo-donax-profile/\">\u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em>\u003c/a>, a giant reed used for roofing material and musical instruments,\u003ca href=\"https://cisr.ucr.edu/invasive-species/giant-reed\"> was brought to California in the early 1800s\u003c/a>. \u003cem>Arundo Donax\u003c/em> is particularly troublesome. It turns river areas into fuel for fires and grows back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight its spread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California — some of them brought intentionally, others accidentally — most of them don’t alter their environments as much as Arundo and ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes,” D’Antonio said. “But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990216\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990216\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-01-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, grows at Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Preventing ‘invasions’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The good news is that in the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange, D’Antonio said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And more locally, park rangers are using a ‘boots on the ground’ approach to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rachel Kesel, a senior environmental scientist with California State Parks, is an evangelist for catching plant invaders before they take over entire coastlines. She’s trained park staff all over the Bay Area in early detection work, teaching them how to identify, map, and get rid of invasive plants before they become unmanageable.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11990219\" class=\"wp-caption alignnone\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11990219\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/06/240604-InvasiveIcePlant-11-BL_qut-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">National Park Service ranger Sierra Frisbie removes ice plant (Carpobrotus edulis), an invasive species from South Africa, from a section of Point Reyes National Seashore on June 4. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>One morning in June, Kesel trained a handful of park managers and volunteers at Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve in the Russian River area of Sonoma County.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She warned them about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass or\u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/plants/profile/ehrharta-erecta-profile/\"> \u003cem>Ehrharta erect\u003c/em>a\u003c/a>, which she saw crop up all over Mt. Tam when she worked there for the better part of a decade. She doesn’t want the grass to invade these redwoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really is probably the highest priority for what to look for,” she said to the group. “It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing, out of our neighborhoods.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although this little blade of grass looks harmless, Kesel takes it very seriously. It has the potential to take over the forest floor; it can grow in just 2% light as well as on a sunny, soil-deprived beach. The veldt grass grows between other plants, which makes it look messy and hard to pull out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12000167\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12000167\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1475\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-800x590.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1020x752.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-160x118.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1536x1133.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Kesel_grass-1920x1416.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rachel Kesel, senior environmental scientist for California State Parks, holds up a piece of invasive panic veldtgrass or Ehrharta erecta, in Armstrong Redwoods State Natural Reserve during a training with local park workers. \u003ccite>(Pauline Bartolone/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see,” Kesel said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hunting down and rooting out invasives may seem like a lot of effort. But to anyone who stands among the redwoods on a hot day and soaks in the beauty of the clover-shaped sorrel on the forest floor, it probably doesn’t seem like too much to ask.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you want to get nerdy about the invasive plants in your area, go to \u003ca href=\"https://www.cal-ipc.org/\">Cal-IPC.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re inspired to plant California natives in your neighborhood, \u003ca href=\"https://calscape.org/\">Calscape offers design ideas and resources\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When you think of quintessential California experiences, driving down Highway 1 is pretty tough to beat. It was one of the first things Tom McMahon did when he first visited the Bay Area in 2016.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon: \u003c/strong>I rented a car, and I drove from San Francisco down to Seacliff. And on the way, I actually stopped along a few spots. And one of them was like, Poplar Beach. And, you know, one of the things that kind of jumped out was all these green plants with the purple and yellow flowers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What he was seeing was ice plant — a fleshy green succulent with finger-like, three-sided leaves. It grows low to the ground and spreads out over large areas, like a carpet. In spring its pink, purple, or yellow flowers burst open — its petals spreading like little fireworks. Quite frankly, it’s gorgeous! But it’s got a dark side. McMahon started studying plants with his 5-year-old daughter recently and learned this charming-looking plant is invasive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> And this has been something that I’ve seen everywhere, and it’s part of my expectation of what the Pacific coast is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> McMahon lives in California now, and he and his daughter go on walks and see ice plant all over — it’s often used in landscaping in place of grass. She’s been asking: “If it’s invasive, why did someone put it there?” and McMahon doesn’t have a great answer. So, he asked Bay Curious for an assist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom McMahon:\u003c/strong> Yeah, I’d like to know, why are the ice plants here, who brought them here? What was their purpose? And what other things do we see every day that are actually invasive and potentially harming our local plant life and wildlife?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week on Bay Curious, we’re delving into the world of invasive plants. We’ll answer McMahon’s questions about ice plant and explore a few other troublesome flora. That’s all just head, stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> To answer Tom McMahon’s questions about ice plant and other notorious invasives. KQED producer Pauline Bartolone got really in the weeds, hardy har har. Enjoy the ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Ice plant has many monikers … Carpobrotus edulis, highway ice plant, or simply sour fig. If you’ve ever set eyes on a California beach, even from a distance, you’ve seen it. From as far north as Crescent City all the way down to San Diego. When it comes to invasive species in California, ice plant is iconic. And so are the areas it invades.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cem>[Wind sounds and crashing waves]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Like the Point Reyes seashore.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So that’s all ice plant! \u003cem>[laughs]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Oh wow, okay, that whole ridge …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>That whole ridge is ice plant over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>I went to the rolling dunes of Point Reyes to meet Lorraine Parsons. She’s a wetland ecologist with the National Seashore. There are miles and miles of ice plant here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> If you drive Sir Francis Drake all the way out to the lighthouse and you look out toward the ocean, many areas are just this dense carpet of ice plant and literally no other plant species.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Parsons is here today with around 10 employees and volunteers to tear out ice plant uphill from a beach near the lighthouse. Here, they still have a chance to protect some vulnerable wildlife.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> And we still have some native plant species, but they’re being pushed out by the ice plant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> National seashore staff have been organizing work parties like this for 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[sound of plants rustling, breaking]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> Oh, it’s a pretty easy plant to pull.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Biotechnician Danna Ojeda is on her hands and knees ripping out ice plant, drawing her hand back like she’s pulling a plug out of a wall. Technically, you could kill ice plant with herbicide, but that can affect other plants and water sources. Ojeda says the trickiest part about tearing it out is just making sure you don’t remove other plants too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danna Ojeda:\u003c/strong> So you just pull it, and since it’s sand, it comes right off. Just make sure the roots don’t go in between any of the plants so you don’t accidentally bring them up to.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Park ranger Sierra Frisbie adds her ice plant debris to a big pile.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sierra Frisbie: \u003c/strong>During a volunteer event, we try to have a competition of who can get the longest piece of ice plant and you’ll end up with something, you know, as long as your body and proudly hold it up like a big fish or something. It’s kinda your catch of the day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>While it’s a gorgeous sunny day out here, this is a beast of a project and a permanent management problem. Parsons says ice plant was actually planted here in the early to mid-1900s as a way to keep dunes, which naturally shift, from moving into nearby pastures. Ice plant is a good soil stabilizer. But it grows laterally about three feet a year. So after decades of growth, Parsons says, about 60 percent of the coastal area in Point Reyes has been taken over by ice plant and another invasive — the equally pernicious European beach grass. They’re struggling to get rid of it in areas where endangered native plants like Tidestrom’s lupine are at risk of going extinct.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>So this is the Tidestrom’s lupine here … Again, this is a short-lived perennial plant species in the pea family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Tidestrom’s lupine is another low-to-the-ground beach-loving plant with little lavender flowers. But here, its seeds are being eaten by mice, which hide out in the nearby ice plant and European beach grass. In many areas, it hasn’t been growing back\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons: \u003c/strong>It has historically stretched from Sonoma County near Goat Rock all the way down to Monterey. And, you know, over that time, populations have been lost.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>The decline of native plants has a ripple effect on other wildlife in an ecosystem. For example, another plant here, the Curlyleaf Monardella, is a primary nectar source for an endangered butterfly. And birds such as the snowy plover, a tiny white-bellied thing, are also threatened. They nest right in the sand on the beach. And the nearby ice plant and beach grass provide cover for their predators.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"margin: 0px;padding: 0px\">\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> So, like, ravens can be in there obviously like coyotes, other animals like that, it makes it easier for them to kind of sneak up on the nest there.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>And the bad news about ice plant gets worse. The invasive can also change the soil conditions, so it is less favorable for native plants even after ice plant is removed. For all those reasons, when it comes to these eradication parties, Parsons says they have to choose their battles wisely. They don’t even bother with the completely overrun areas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lorraine Parsons:\u003c/strong> We realize we’re not going to get rid of all this beach grass, and we’re not going to get rid of all this ice plant. So I think we’re just focusing on these like moderately to sparsely invaded areas because, in a sense, you get more bang for your buck. You’ve already got the native plants here. It’s a lot easier to get, to reestablish a native community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Today, ice plant blankets the California coastline. It’s not just a problem in California, though, it’s everywhere: coastal Italy, Spain, Argentina, Australia. UC Santa Barbara ecology professor Carla D’Antonio says that’s not surprising.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>People take plants with them when they go places. When the Spaniards came here, they had a whole array of species that they brought.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>D’Antonio says there isn’t a lot of documentation about the beginnings of Carpobrotus edulis in the U.S. but there’s a consensus about its origin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>It came from South Africa. It appears to have come probably, in the 1930s. It was planted along railroads to stabilize blowing sand. It was planted along highways. It’s probably pretty good at stopping cars that are out of control, you know, and stopping erosion of cliff sides or bank sides onto those highways.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Ice plant’s long and viny stems stay close to the ground as they grow, and set down many different roots along the way. The tangley mat keeps soil together underneath. That’s why Caltrans and other engineers planted it around highways, railroads and other landscapes. But when managers of natural areas like Asilomar in Monterey started getting concerned about ice plant, D’Antonio decided to do her doctoral research on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio: \u003c/strong>Awareness really started to grow that this thing was showing up everywhere. People were noticing that they were losing some of their beautiful kind of endemic coastal poppies and other things because carpobrotus was growing everywhere.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\nPauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Certainly, ice plant isn’t the only non-native plant bent on world domination. Our question asker, Tom McMahon wanted to know about others on the most-wanted list. I’d say Arundo donax would definitely be in that category. The giant reed was brought to California in the early 1800s and used for roofing material and musical instruments. Arundo donax is particularly gnarly, turning river areas into fuel for fire and growing back even stronger after a blaze. Tens of millions of public dollars have been used to fight it. All in all, D’Antonio says, thousands of non-native plants have been introduced into California. Some of them intentionally, others accidentally. Most of them play nice with native plants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carla D’Antonio:\u003c/strong> So it isn’t that many of them that are really causing these big changes. But the ones that do definitely are changing the resources and the values that we want to have in our ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> So how do we stop those world-dominating plants? D’Antonio says for the past few decades, ecologists have been trying to establish some boundaries on international plant exchange. And more locally, park rangers are using boots on the ground approaches to preventing the spread of invasives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I brought a couple of things with me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>People like Rachel Kesel in Sonoma County. The park ranger is an evangelist for catching plant invaders early before they take over entire coastlines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>So I think everybody probably knows that all folks engaged in land management spend a lot of time and money on invasive plants. And what the early detection of invasive plants approach does is try to shift some of that, hopefully, new investment of time and money that you are already spending to plants that are newer on the landscape.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel has trained park staff all over the Bay Area to find invasive plants early. Today, she’s in Armstrong Redwoods State Reserve in the Russian River warning a handful of park staff and volunteers about a wispy green weed called panic veldt grass, or Ehrharta erecta.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It often comes in on our vehicles, mud in our tires and that sort of thing out of our neighborhoods.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes this little blade of grass very seriously. She saw Ehrharta crop up all over Mt. Tam, where she worked for the better part of a decade. This thing sounds like it could withstand an apocalypse. It can grow on a forest floor in just 2 percent light, or a sunny, soil deprived beach. It grows between other plants, which makes it hard to pull out. And Kesel says it just looks messy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>It would really change that iconic look of the understory floor and kind of what people are coming into an old-growth redwood forest to see.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[footsteps]\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Kesel takes a couple of park personnel out on a detection walk, to show them how they can identify the plant, and map it, so scientists can track its footprint over time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> Go, team! Now, when I come upon something like this, I’m always gonna take a twirl around it…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Is that it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> No, that is a melaka.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Okay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> It’s a native grass, thankfully. But. Good eye, you’re noticing grasses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Apparently, I can’t tell the difference between blades of grass, but Kesel seems to have developed a hawk eye for this work. When we did come across the pesky blades of grass, she broke out a plastic bag to transport the undesirables.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> I know I look paranoid, but it is dropping its seed, which is why I have it in the bag.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[rustling of plastic bag]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So now you go in the bag, my friend …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>Then, she holds up the blade of grass like it’s a contaminated Q-tip so the park workers can get a closer look. She takes out her mini magnifying glass.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel:\u003c/strong> So, all right. If we look at the base. Of course, this one isn’t very red because, like I said, color is a fickle character.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> Finally, she shows the park workers how to map other invasives using a program on her phone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rachel Kesel: \u003c/strong>Go to my location. Why are you being so dumb? I talk back to my device a lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> During this trip, part of me felt like, wow, what a lot of effort to remove just a little blade of grass. But on the way out of Armstrong that day, I took a moment to stand under the shade of the redwoods and soak in the beauty. The forest floor was covered in this really pretty, delicate-looking sorrel. It’s a clover-like plant a few inches off the ground. That’s when it struck me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/strong> I can really see why people want to preserve this place. The air is so still and soft, and I imagine much cooler than outside this redwood forest. I could spend all day here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/strong>When it comes to preserving that feeling of the redwoods, managing invasives doesn’t seem like too much to ask. After all, we all manage weeds in our own yards, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was produced by Pauline Bartolone. Big thanks to Tom McMahon and his five-year-old daughter for the question. And to the California invasive plant council for their expertise on this story. If you want to learn more about invasive plants or get involved in one of those removal work parties – we’ve got a lot of resources for you online at BayCurious.org. We’ll drop a link in our show notes too. Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. You can support our show by becoming a member! Give today at donate.kqed.org.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale, Ana De Almeida Amaral. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, thank you for listening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/12000061/pretty-but-not-nice-californias-invasive-ice-plant","authors":["11879"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_31795","news_19906","news_8","news_356"],"tags":["news_18426","news_20023","news_27626","news_23518","news_1421"],"featImg":"news_11990228","label":"news_33523"},"news_11999232":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11999232","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11999232","score":null,"sort":[1723111242000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"what-will-it-take-to-improve-ev-infrastructure-in-california","title":"What Will It Take to Improve EV Infrastructure in California?","publishDate":1723111242,"format":"standard","headTitle":"What Will It Take to Improve EV Infrastructure in California? | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may have heard some horror stories about electric vehicle charging — long lines, lengthy waits, broken units. Sometimes even\u003cem> finding \u003c/em>a charging station is a challenge. When your car’s low on charge but no charger is available, it’s stressful. Maybe you’re halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles and you’re stuck waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s one of the big things stopping Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg from buying an electric car right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m hoping that by 2030, between having some years to save up and the technology getting better and cheaper, maybe that’s around the time [it] could work for our family,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Lindberg has an idea to help alleviate the charging congestion. She’s noticed a lot of empty former gas station sites around her neighborhood in Oakland and wondered, “Would it be a good idea to turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom set a goal for the state to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by the year 2035. So even if you’ve got a gas-powered car, and this isn’t a problem you’re facing currently, it may be soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How to set up a charging station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To find out what goes into installing a new charging station, I met up with Jonah Eidus, who oversees real estate development for electric car charging company EVgo. The company has hundreds of charging stalls across the Bay Area and thousands across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes,” Eidus said. “And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since charging your car takes longer than pumping gas, stations are designed with the surroundings in mind. They aim to install stations in the parking lot of a Safeway, for example, or close to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many other considerations too, Eidus said, including the availability of parking stalls. Is there enough space for many cars to park? The goal, after all, is to build as many charging stalls per site as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does the site integrate well into the electrical grid? The product they are ultimately selling is electricity, so they have to make sure that a site \u003cem>has \u003c/em>the electricity to sell at an affordable price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, is the charging station set up near those who need it most, including those who live in apartment complexes and don’t have the option to charge from their own garage? There are also city zoning regulations and safety considerations to take into account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even half of what goes into establishing a charging site. In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through,” Eidus said. “When a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving reliability and keeping up with demand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California — particularly the Bay Area — \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/bay-area-electric-vehicles.html\">leads the nation\u003c/a> in electric vehicle adoption. To meet that growing demand, California has to build 1 million new chargers by the end of 2030, \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24795161/assembly-bill-2127-second-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-second-assessment-revised-staff-report.pdf#page=52\">according to the state’s own projections (PDF)\u003c/a>. Some experts say \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/07/california-electric-car-chargers-unrealistic-goals/\">that’s not feasible\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers,” said Carleen Cullen, co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Gov. Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not only are they in short supply, the ones we do have are not always reliable, Cullen said. She helped conduct a study a few years ago to test the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area and found that a quarter of them weren’t functional, meaning the screens were broken, the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cullen said while the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, there’s still not enough of it — despite the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://smartasset.com/data-studies/ev-chargers-2023\">California is outpacing other states\u003c/a> in both EV adoption and infrastructure. And in order to reach Newsom’s goal, we need consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, local governments and utility companies to work together, Cullen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to move the adoption of EVs forward, we need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999354\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999354\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tashinda Richardson of Oakland plugs in her rented electric vehicle at an EVgo Fast Charging station in Oakland on Jan. 29. Richardson said it can be hard to find a charger when she needs one. Sometimes, she said, chargers won’t work or the plug will get stuck in the car. \u003ccite>(Kathryn Styer Martínez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A big hold-up right now, according to Cullen, lies with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a huge lag time between when the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to the power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station anywhere. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant, for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system,” said David Almeida, a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almeida said the utility company underestimated electricity demand, and as a result, it doesn’t have the infrastructure to support the rapidly growing EV industry right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all the work needed to bolster this transportation system overhaul, Almeida said it’s ultimately worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, California’s transportation system is by far the \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/ghg-inventory-data\">largest contributor\u003c/a> to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change, and EVs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c09642\">study\u003c/a> by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been a believer from the very beginning,” Almeida said. “And it’s just very cool to see a lot of this prove out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay curious. And today we’re going on a little road trip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of a car driving\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here we go. So we are driving around San Francisco in my Volkswagen E-golf, and it’s an electric vehicle. And we’re looking for a place to charge. And I’m here with Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And how do you normally find a place to charge in the city?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty rare that I have to find a place to charge because I mostly charge at home. But when I do have to find a place, I pull up an app on my phone and …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Safely, of course, pulled over by the side of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Let’s actually pull over real quick up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of car decelerating)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I pull up this app on my phone and what it does is it loads all sorts of different chargers that are nearby that are owned by all sorts of different companies. The numbers mean how many charging stations are in each of these locations. Of the one that’s nearby, it looks like one is out of service; four are currently being used … but looks like one is available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> 0.2 miles away. That’s not too bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Okay, so the charger is somewhere in this enormous parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> You know that there’s a spot open right now because of your app, right? Or is it possible that it’s there but someone’s using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I would … I would say I don’t feel 100% confident based on the app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> There’s a line of Teslas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, let’s go and see if the non-Tesla chargers are near the Tesla ones, too. Oh, and here we are to the right. … This is also Tesla charging. Just kidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We drove around the parking lot for a while but then finally found the chargers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> So, it’s full. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There was a little dispute with another customer over who was there first. It was totally us, but we let it go. Eventually, another stall opened up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Charging port here, plug it in and it looks like this one gives me the option to pay by the EVgo app, or I can pay by credit card, which is actually great. It does not seem … Oh, there we go, there we go. Okay, let’s remove the card … (pause) authorization declined. I will try a different card payment. (pause) Authorized!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Step one: Complete! (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Step 7,962: pay for the charging. (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Generally, I would say this was not super easy, and yet it’s pretty much totally full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, it’s not easy. I feel really lucky most of the time. I charge at home because it is, you know, it’s a pain and it’s a little stressful, especially if you are really low on charge. Like I’ve been in situations where I’m really sweating it out because I go to one charging station and like the screen is broken or the Wi-Fi isn’t working, or sometimes they’ll have these in paid parking garages and they don’t tell you that. And it’s like $30 just to get in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like it feels like you do have to have an at-home charger right now for this to be convenient and conducive to your lifestyle. Like, I can’t imagine, like fully relying on this, you know. I, for one, will probably just stick with my Subaru for now. My gas-powered Subaru, for now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we dive into the world of electric vehicles. I love driving mine, but as you saw, it’s not perfect. California currently dominates the EV market, and the state has a lofty goal of banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. So if you’re not driving an EV yet, you may be soon. Is your community set up for it? Is the Bay area’s current infrastructure matching up with the demand? We’ll get into all that just after a quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For this episode, I’m tossing to my co-pilot … reporter Dana Cronin … to explain what’s going on with the Bay Area’s EV infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like a lot of Bay Area residents … maybe you included … I want my next car to be electric. But if my 2012 Subaru Outback died tomorrow … I’m not sure I’d be ready to make the switch. Especially after that drive with Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg … feels the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> You hear those stories in the news sometimes about, like, the drive between, like, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. You know, people going in their Teslas and having a super long line at the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Kelly works for a climate startup accelerator, and she’s thought, “There’s gotta be a solution to this problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One came to her… as she was driving through her neighborhood in Oakland. She’s noticed a lot of abandoned gas stations around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> Would it be a good idea to maybe turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I mean … sounds like a good idea to me. I, too, live in Oakland and have noticed quite a few empty lots. Whether they’re former gas stations, convenience stores, or storefronts … it seems like there’s plenty of empty space for charging stations to set up shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, to do that, you first need a charging company. So, I met with one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of loud road noise)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah Eidus is wearing a navy-logoed polo and is parked at an EVgo charging station. He oversees EVgo’s real estate department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EVgo has hundreds of charging stalls in the Bay Area … the one we’re meeting at is in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood … right off of 580 on Fruitvale Avenue. It’s set up at a Shell gas station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> So this site is an eight-stall, fast-charging site, capable of delivering up to 350 kW to each car. And it is definitely one of the more popular stations in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s enough to charge most modern EVs in less than 20 minutes. And it is popular! Over the course of our interview … all eight stalls were full almost the whole time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without wasting any time, I posed Kelly’s question. Could empty lots and gas stations near her house get setups like this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes. And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>It takes longer to charge your car’s battery than it does to pump gas. So this charging station, for example, is right next to a Peet’s Coffee and a Farmer Joe’s grocery store. A perfect place to run some errands while you wait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we’re talking, Dave Robinson drives up in his brand new 2023 KIA EV6, backs into a stall, and plugs in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>What do you plan to do while you wait?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Robinson:\u003c/strong> Just hang out. You know, if it’s going to be a while, there’s coffee shops and everything else around. So it’s easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Convenience! It’s a big factor in selecting a charging site, Jonah says. But there are lots of other factors, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Availability of parking stalls, grid interconnection, forecasted charging demand, electricity rates and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>OK … let’s take those one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> Availability of parking stalls …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning … is there enough space for cars to park here? The goal is to build as many charging stalls as possible per site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … grid interconnection …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This one is super important. Because after all, the product they are ultimately selling … is electricity. And they need to make sure that a specific site HAS the electricity to sell\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … forecasted charging demand … electricity rates …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>How many customers do they expect, and how much will those customers have to pay to charge? The cost of electricity can \u003cem>literally \u003c/em>vary block to block.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And … EVGo is a for-profit company after all … so it needs to pencil out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Is the charging station set up near those who need it the most? Those who live in apartment complexes, for example, don’t have the option to charge from their own garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even \u003cem>half \u003c/em>the considerations that go into establishing a charging site. There’s also things like a city’s zoning regulations … and safety considerations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through. And when a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah couldn’t say exactly whether the specific abandoned gas stations in Kelly’s neighborhood could be converted to charging sites … I guess that’s a question for the algorithm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So that’s how companies choose specific charging sites … and avoid others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at the \u003cem>heart \u003c/em>of Kelly’s question … is a bigger question. Clearly, we need MORE charging stations … whether at abandoned gas stations … or near coffee shops and grocery stores. So … why hasn’t the electric vehicle charging infrastructure kept up with demand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer that question, I met up with Carleen Cullen. She’s the co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Governor Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of a busy parking lot)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We meet up at another charging station … this one in the parking lot of a Safeway in Mill Valley. We’re chatting next to Carleen’s Chevy Bolt … which is parked in a stall, ready to charge … when, all of a sudden, another EV driver pulls up behind us and asks how long we plan to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I guess that’s part of the challenge is that there’s so few chargers that we have someone waiting on us here waiting for a charge, somewhat impatiently. So we’re going to go ahead and get charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> Let’s get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen swipes her credit card, pulls the charger around to her car, plugs in, and it starts charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of the high-pitched hum from the charger)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>So when you hear that great hum, you know that that’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen is somewhat of an electric vehicle evangelist … an E-V-vangelist … if you will. Half the time we spent together I felt like I was in an EV infomercial. But she’s not naive. She knows the current infrastructure is flawed. In fact, she did a study a few years ago where she tested the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>And we found that about a quarter of the stations in the Bay area weren’t functional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning the screens were broken or the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed. She says the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, but there’s still not enough of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers. Yeah, we’re definitely tight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And that’s in part because … what we’re talking about here … is a MAJOR overhaul of an entire transportation system. In 2020, Governor Newsom set a goal to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles in California by the year 2035. And California is outpacing other states in both EV adoption and infrastructure by a long shot. We have more chargers than any other state. But in order to reach that lofty goal … Carleen says we need three things:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> We need to move the adoption of EVs forward. We need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>These things all have to happen simultaneously. Consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, utility companies, local governments … everyone has to work in concert for this to work. Carleen says, right now, the utility companies aren’t necessarily pulling their weight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge lag time between when the station, the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to our power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station ANYWHERE. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant … for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are critical considerations, says David Almeida … a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group. And he says Carleen’s critique is fair. He says, yes, the utility is definitely still playing catch-up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida:\u003c/strong> So we have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He also says … they didn’t plan for that increased demand for electricity. In fact, they UNDERestimated it … and, as a result, they don’t have the infrastructure to support it right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he says, they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida: \u003c/strong>We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He says their goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This all sounds like a lot of work. Overhauling our entire state’s transportation system … building thousands and thousands of new charging stations … getting utility companies on board … I’m exhausted just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s important to remember WHY we’re doing this. Right now, California’s transportation system is BY FAR the largest contributor to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Evs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent study by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, obviously, to keep up that progress … the system has to work for EVERYONE. And I’m not sure we’re there yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> What do you think, Olivia? Any more sympathy for the cause?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You know, yeah. I didn’t realize there were so many hurdles to getting new charging stations online. I feel really lucky that I am able to charge my car at home and so this isn’t an issue I have to deal with very often. But for folks who can’t charge overnight where they live — that’s a huge hurdle. And I’m sure it’s a non-starter for some people! It’s got to get better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Yeah … 2035 is not THAT far away … and if we’re gonna reach that goal, we’re going to need more charging stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m kind of hoping my Subaru lasts just a couple more years …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Dana Cronin — thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story would not have been possible without our question-asker, Kelly Lindberg. That’s because you, our dear audience, decide what we cover by submitting questions — and then voting on which ones we should answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have a new voting round-up at BayCurious.org with three enticing questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Why did Oakland International Airport become San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport, giving us two very confusingly similar-sounding airports?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I remember going to the Berkeley dump, now Cesar Chavez Park, with my dad in the 1970s. It was pretty wild. It’d be really interesting to learn more about its evolution from dump to park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> I was walking my dog on Thornton Beach on the Daly City/SF border and found a really long tunnel coming out of the hillside around some abandoned piers. Any idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Voting is so easy! Just grab your phone, pull up BayCurious.org, scroll to our voting round and click on your favorite question! No registering or emails or phone numbers or anything complicated. We try to make it easy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale. Special thanks to Laura Klivans, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"EV owners face challenges in finding charging stations with infrastructure still lagging behind ambitious California goals. But few are aware of just how many complicated considerations go into the building charging stations.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1723133146,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":148,"wordCount":4565},"headData":{"title":"What Will It Take to Improve EV Infrastructure in California? | KQED","description":"EV owners face challenges in finding charging stations with infrastructure still lagging behind ambitious California goals. But few are aware of just how many complicated considerations go into the building charging stations.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"What Will It Take to Improve EV Infrastructure in California?","datePublished":"2024-08-08T03:00:42-07:00","dateModified":"2024-08-08T09:05:46-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9615068029.mp3?updated=1723057572","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11999232","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11999232/what-will-it-take-to-improve-ev-infrastructure-in-california","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>You may have heard some horror stories about electric vehicle charging — long lines, lengthy waits, broken units. Sometimes even\u003cem> finding \u003c/em>a charging station is a challenge. When your car’s low on charge but no charger is available, it’s stressful. Maybe you’re halfway between San Francisco and Los Angeles and you’re stuck waiting.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s one of the big things stopping Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg from buying an electric car right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m hoping that by 2030, between having some years to save up and the technology getting better and cheaper, maybe that’s around the time [it] could work for our family,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the meantime, Lindberg has an idea to help alleviate the charging congestion. She’s noticed a lot of empty former gas station sites around her neighborhood in Oakland and wondered, “Would it be a good idea to turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 2020, Gov. Gavin Newsom set a goal for the state to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by the year 2035. So even if you’ve got a gas-powered car, and this isn’t a problem you’re facing currently, it may be soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>How to set up a charging station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To find out what goes into installing a new charging station, I met up with Jonah Eidus, who oversees real estate development for electric car charging company EVgo. The company has hundreds of charging stalls across the Bay Area and thousands across the country.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes,” Eidus said. “And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Since charging your car takes longer than pumping gas, stations are designed with the surroundings in mind. They aim to install stations in the parking lot of a Safeway, for example, or close to a coffee shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There are many other considerations too, Eidus said, including the availability of parking stalls. Is there enough space for many cars to park? The goal, after all, is to build as many charging stalls per site as possible.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Does the site integrate well into the electrical grid? The product they are ultimately selling is electricity, so they have to make sure that a site \u003cem>has \u003c/em>the electricity to sell at an affordable price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Additionally, is the charging station set up near those who need it most, including those who live in apartment complexes and don’t have the option to charge from their own garage? There are also city zoning regulations and safety considerations to take into account.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even half of what goes into establishing a charging site. In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through,” Eidus said. “When a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Improving reliability and keeping up with demand\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>California — particularly the Bay Area — \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/12/us/bay-area-electric-vehicles.html\">leads the nation\u003c/a> in electric vehicle adoption. To meet that growing demand, California has to build 1 million new chargers by the end of 2030, \u003ca href=\"https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24795161/assembly-bill-2127-second-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-second-assessment-revised-staff-report.pdf#page=52\">according to the state’s own projections (PDF)\u003c/a>. Some experts say \u003ca href=\"https://calmatters.org/environment/climate-change/2024/07/california-electric-car-chargers-unrealistic-goals/\">that’s not feasible\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers,” said Carleen Cullen, co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Gov. Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not only are they in short supply, the ones we do have are not always reliable, Cullen said. She helped conduct a study a few years ago to test the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area and found that a quarter of them weren’t functional, meaning the screens were broken, the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cullen said while the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, there’s still not enough of it — despite the fact that \u003ca href=\"https://smartasset.com/data-studies/ev-chargers-2023\">California is outpacing other states\u003c/a> in both EV adoption and infrastructure. And in order to reach Newsom’s goal, we need consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, local governments and utility companies to work together, Cullen said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We need to move the adoption of EVs forward, we need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11999354\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11999354\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/240129-EVFILE-KSM-24_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Tashinda Richardson of Oakland plugs in her rented electric vehicle at an EVgo Fast Charging station in Oakland on Jan. 29. Richardson said it can be hard to find a charger when she needs one. Sometimes, she said, chargers won’t work or the plug will get stuck in the car. \u003ccite>(Kathryn Styer Martínez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>A big hold-up right now, according to Cullen, lies with PG&E.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a huge lag time between when the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to the power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station anywhere. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant, for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system,” said David Almeida, a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Almeida said the utility company underestimated electricity demand, and as a result, it doesn’t have the infrastructure to support the rapidly growing EV industry right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all the work needed to bolster this transportation system overhaul, Almeida said it’s ultimately worth it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Right now, California’s transportation system is by far the \u003ca href=\"https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/ghg-inventory-data\">largest contributor\u003c/a> to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change, and EVs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c09642\">study\u003c/a> by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve been a believer from the very beginning,” Almeida said. “And it’s just very cool to see a lot of this prove out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This is a computer-generated transcript. While our team has reviewed it, there may be errors.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay curious. And today we’re going on a little road trip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of a car driving\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Here we go. So we are driving around San Francisco in my Volkswagen E-golf, and it’s an electric vehicle. And we’re looking for a place to charge. And I’m here with Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And how do you normally find a place to charge in the city?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s pretty rare that I have to find a place to charge because I mostly charge at home. But when I do have to find a place, I pull up an app on my phone and …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Safely, of course, pulled over by the side of the road.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Exactly. Let’s actually pull over real quick up here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of car decelerating)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so I pull up this app on my phone and what it does is it loads all sorts of different chargers that are nearby that are owned by all sorts of different companies. The numbers mean how many charging stations are in each of these locations. Of the one that’s nearby, it looks like one is out of service; four are currently being used … but looks like one is available.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> 0.2 miles away. That’s not too bad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, let’s give it a shot. Okay, so the charger is somewhere in this enormous parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> You know that there’s a spot open right now because of your app, right? Or is it possible that it’s there but someone’s using it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I would … I would say I don’t feel 100% confident based on the app.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> There’s a line of Teslas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So, let’s go and see if the non-Tesla chargers are near the Tesla ones, too. Oh, and here we are to the right. … This is also Tesla charging. Just kidding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We drove around the parking lot for a while but then finally found the chargers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> So, it’s full. (laughs)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There was a little dispute with another customer over who was there first. It was totally us, but we let it go. Eventually, another stall opened up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Charging port here, plug it in and it looks like this one gives me the option to pay by the EVgo app, or I can pay by credit card, which is actually great. It does not seem … Oh, there we go, there we go. Okay, let’s remove the card … (pause) authorization declined. I will try a different card payment. (pause) Authorized!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Step one: Complete! (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Step 7,962: pay for the charging. (laughing)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Generally, I would say this was not super easy, and yet it’s pretty much totally full.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: Yeah, I mean, it’s not easy. I feel really lucky most of the time. I charge at home because it is, you know, it’s a pain and it’s a little stressful, especially if you are really low on charge. Like I’ve been in situations where I’m really sweating it out because I go to one charging station and like the screen is broken or the Wi-Fi isn’t working, or sometimes they’ll have these in paid parking garages and they don’t tell you that. And it’s like $30 just to get in the garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like it feels like you do have to have an at-home charger right now for this to be convenient and conducive to your lifestyle. Like, I can’t imagine, like fully relying on this, you know. I, for one, will probably just stick with my Subaru for now. My gas-powered Subaru, for now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we dive into the world of electric vehicles. I love driving mine, but as you saw, it’s not perfect. California currently dominates the EV market, and the state has a lofty goal of banning the sale of new gas-powered vehicles by 2035. So if you’re not driving an EV yet, you may be soon. Is your community set up for it? Is the Bay area’s current infrastructure matching up with the demand? We’ll get into all that just after a quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>SPONSOR\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For this episode, I’m tossing to my co-pilot … reporter Dana Cronin … to explain what’s going on with the Bay Area’s EV infrastructure.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Like a lot of Bay Area residents … maybe you included … I want my next car to be electric. But if my 2012 Subaru Outback died tomorrow … I’m not sure I’d be ready to make the switch. Especially after that drive with Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Kelly Lindberg … feels the same way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> You hear those stories in the news sometimes about, like, the drive between, like, Las Vegas and Los Angeles. You know, people going in their Teslas and having a super long line at the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Kelly works for a climate startup accelerator, and she’s thought, “There’s gotta be a solution to this problem.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One came to her… as she was driving through her neighborhood in Oakland. She’s noticed a lot of abandoned gas stations around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kelly Lindberg:\u003c/strong> Would it be a good idea to maybe turn some of these spaces into electric car charging stations?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I mean … sounds like a good idea to me. I, too, live in Oakland and have noticed quite a few empty lots. Whether they’re former gas stations, convenience stores, or storefronts … it seems like there’s plenty of empty space for charging stations to set up shop.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, to do that, you first need a charging company. So, I met with one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of loud road noise)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah Eidus is wearing a navy-logoed polo and is parked at an EVgo charging station. He oversees EVgo’s real estate department.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>EVgo has hundreds of charging stalls in the Bay Area … the one we’re meeting at is in Oakland’s Fruitvale neighborhood … right off of 580 on Fruitvale Avenue. It’s set up at a Shell gas station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> So this site is an eight-stall, fast-charging site, capable of delivering up to 350 kW to each car. And it is definitely one of the more popular stations in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>That’s enough to charge most modern EVs in less than 20 minutes. And it is popular! Over the course of our interview … all eight stalls were full almost the whole time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Without wasting any time, I posed Kelly’s question. Could empty lots and gas stations near her house get setups like this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> In general, when we’re installing new chargers, we’re looking to be in high-traffic areas where the chargers will be used for about 15 to 45 minutes. And that means we also want to have amenities nearby so people have something to do during those 15 to 45 minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>It takes longer to charge your car’s battery than it does to pump gas. So this charging station, for example, is right next to a Peet’s Coffee and a Farmer Joe’s grocery store. A perfect place to run some errands while you wait.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As we’re talking, Dave Robinson drives up in his brand new 2023 KIA EV6, backs into a stall, and plugs in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>What do you plan to do while you wait?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dave Robinson:\u003c/strong> Just hang out. You know, if it’s going to be a while, there’s coffee shops and everything else around. So it’s easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Convenience! It’s a big factor in selecting a charging site, Jonah says. But there are lots of other factors, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Availability of parking stalls, grid interconnection, forecasted charging demand, electricity rates and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>OK … let’s take those one at a time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> Availability of parking stalls …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning … is there enough space for cars to park here? The goal is to build as many charging stalls as possible per site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … grid interconnection …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This one is super important. Because after all, the product they are ultimately selling … is electricity. And they need to make sure that a specific site HAS the electricity to sell\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … forecasted charging demand … electricity rates …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>How many customers do they expect, and how much will those customers have to pay to charge? The cost of electricity can \u003cem>literally \u003c/em>vary block to block.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And … EVGo is a for-profit company after all … so it needs to pencil out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus:\u003c/strong> … and importantly, multifamily housing density nearby the charging station.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Is the charging station set up near those who need it the most? Those who live in apartment complexes, for example, don’t have the option to charge from their own garage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s not even \u003cem>half \u003c/em>the considerations that go into establishing a charging site. There’s also things like a city’s zoning regulations … and safety considerations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In fact, EVgo has a mapping algorithm that integrates 27 different factors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jonah Eidus: \u003c/strong>Suffice to say, it is a fairly sophisticated process that we go through. And when a site goes live, a lot of thought and a lot of data has gone into the decision to build that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Jonah couldn’t say exactly whether the specific abandoned gas stations in Kelly’s neighborhood could be converted to charging sites … I guess that’s a question for the algorithm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(music)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem> \u003c/em>So that’s how companies choose specific charging sites … and avoid others.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But at the \u003cem>heart \u003c/em>of Kelly’s question … is a bigger question. Clearly, we need MORE charging stations … whether at abandoned gas stations … or near coffee shops and grocery stores. So … why hasn’t the electric vehicle charging infrastructure kept up with demand?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To answer that question, I met up with Carleen Cullen. She’s the co-founder of the environmental nonprofit Cool the Earth and a former transportation advisor to Governor Newsom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sounds of a busy parking lot)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>We meet up at another charging station … this one in the parking lot of a Safeway in Mill Valley. We’re chatting next to Carleen’s Chevy Bolt … which is parked in a stall, ready to charge … when, all of a sudden, another EV driver pulls up behind us and asks how long we plan to be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>I guess that’s part of the challenge is that there’s so few chargers that we have someone waiting on us here waiting for a charge, somewhat impatiently. So we’re going to go ahead and get charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> Let’s get started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen swipes her credit card, pulls the charger around to her car, plugs in, and it starts charging.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>(sound of the high-pitched hum from the charger)\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>So when you hear that great hum, you know that that’s happening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Carleen is somewhat of an electric vehicle evangelist … an E-V-vangelist … if you will. Half the time we spent together I felt like I was in an EV infomercial. But she’s not naive. She knows the current infrastructure is flawed. In fact, she did a study a few years ago where she tested the reliability of charging stations in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>And we found that about a quarter of the stations in the Bay area weren’t functional.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>Meaning the screens were broken or the payment system didn’t work or the equipment was flawed. She says the infrastructure has improved a lot since then, but there’s still not enough of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>I would say we’re tight on the number of chargers. Yeah, we’re definitely tight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>And that’s in part because … what we’re talking about here … is a MAJOR overhaul of an entire transportation system. In 2020, Governor Newsom set a goal to ban the sale of new gas-powered vehicles in California by the year 2035. And California is outpacing other states in both EV adoption and infrastructure by a long shot. We have more chargers than any other state. But in order to reach that lofty goal … Carleen says we need three things:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen:\u003c/strong> We need to move the adoption of EVs forward. We need to move the number of charging ports available as well, and we need to move the grid capacity as well.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>These things all have to happen simultaneously. Consumers, charging companies, EV manufacturers, utility companies, local governments … everyone has to work in concert for this to work. Carleen says, right now, the utility companies aren’t necessarily pulling their weight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Carleen Cullen: \u003c/strong>There’s a huge lag time between when the station, the charging station vendor requests the power and when PG&E actually delivers it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>For a charging station to operate, it needs to be hooked up to our power grid. That’s where PG&E comes in. And they won’t just let you set up a charging station ANYWHERE. They have to be able to deliver enough power to that site.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Is the section of the grid you’re trying to connect to also connected to a big manufacturing plant … for example? Are your neighbors using a lot of electricity during certain times of the day? Then the available power is likely spoken for. Does that portion of the grid rely heavily on solar power? Then the chargers may not work when the sun goes down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These are critical considerations, says David Almeida … a manager within PG&E’s clean energy transportation group. And he says Carleen’s critique is fair. He says, yes, the utility is definitely still playing catch-up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida:\u003c/strong> So we have over 600,000 EVs in our service territory. And we’ve seen EV adoption grow at about 26% of the compound annual growth rate over the last few years. That’s a significant amount of load that we’re seeing on the system.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He also says … they didn’t plan for that increased demand for electricity. In fact, they UNDERestimated it … and, as a result, they don’t have the infrastructure to support it right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But, he says, they’re working on it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>David Almeida: \u003c/strong>We are building out a forecast that doesn’t look at necessarily just historical load, but it looks at where we anticipate load growth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>He says their goal is to make electric car charging stations faster to build and more reliable once they’re up and running.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin: \u003c/strong>This all sounds like a lot of work. Overhauling our entire state’s transportation system … building thousands and thousands of new charging stations … getting utility companies on board … I’m exhausted just thinking about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But it’s important to remember WHY we’re doing this. Right now, California’s transportation system is BY FAR the largest contributor to our greenhouse gas emissions. Transitioning away from gas-powered cars is critical to mitigating the impacts of climate change.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And Evs are already helping to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A recent study by scientists at UC Berkeley showed EV adoption in the Bay Area has already reduced our carbon emissions by almost 2 percent.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, obviously, to keep up that progress … the system has to work for EVERYONE. And I’m not sure we’re there yet.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music sneaks in\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> What do you think, Olivia? Any more sympathy for the cause?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You know, yeah. I didn’t realize there were so many hurdles to getting new charging stations online. I feel really lucky that I am able to charge my car at home and so this isn’t an issue I have to deal with very often. But for folks who can’t charge overnight where they live — that’s a huge hurdle. And I’m sure it’s a non-starter for some people! It’s got to get better.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Yeah … 2035 is not THAT far away … and if we’re gonna reach that goal, we’re going to need more charging stations.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m kind of hoping my Subaru lasts just a couple more years …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Dana Cronin — thank you!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dana Cronin:\u003c/strong> Thank you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Dana Cronin.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This story would not have been possible without our question-asker, Kelly Lindberg. That’s because you, our dear audience, decide what we cover by submitting questions — and then voting on which ones we should answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We have a new voting round-up at BayCurious.org with three enticing questions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 1:\u003c/strong> Why did Oakland International Airport become San Francisco Bay Oakland International Airport, giving us two very confusingly similar-sounding airports?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 2:\u003c/strong> I remember going to the Berkeley dump, now Cesar Chavez Park, with my dad in the 1970s. It was pretty wild. It’d be really interesting to learn more about its evolution from dump to park.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice 3:\u003c/strong> I was walking my dog on Thornton Beach on the Daly City/SF border and found a really long tunnel coming out of the hillside around some abandoned piers. Any idea what it is?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Voting is so easy! Just grab your phone, pull up BayCurious.org, scroll to our voting round and click on your favorite question! No registering or emails or phone numbers or anything complicated. We try to make it easy on you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Ana De Almeida Amaral, Amanda Font, Olivia Allen-Price, Christopher Beale. Special thanks to Laura Klivans, Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11999232/what-will-it-take-to-improve-ev-infrastructure-in-california","authors":["11362"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_31795","news_1758","news_19906","news_8","news_248","news_1397"],"tags":["news_18426","news_21349","news_22457","news_21348","news_27626","news_353"],"featImg":"news_11999267","label":"news_33523"},"news_11998507":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11998507","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11998507","score":null,"sort":[1722695439000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"how-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work","title":"How Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work","publishDate":1722695439,"format":"audio","headTitle":"How Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life’s Work | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11998339/transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look up Carol Leigh or “Scarlot Harlot” online, you’ll learn that she’s credited with coining the term “sex worker.” Today, it’s used by activists, public health officials, lawmakers and the media to describe those working in the sex industry, and it’s revolutionized the way we talk about the profession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The term came to Leigh in 1978 when she attended a workshop hosted by a group of feminists in San Francisco. The group, Women Against Violence in Pornography and Media or WAVPM, thought all women in the sex industry were being oppressed by men and held \u003ca href=\"https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/sex-lies-and-andrea-dworkin.html\">anti-sex work points of view\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousbug] Leigh was familiar with this argument, but she made it a point to understand their opposing perspective. She writes in her memoir “Unrepentant Whore: The Collected Works of Scarlot Harlot” that she identified herself as a prostitute to the group. She said the name of the workshop referenced the “sex use industry.” That name embarrassed her. So, she spoke out against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we’re a feminist, we should be defining it not by what the men do – the men use the services – but by what the women do. Women do sex work,” Leigh recalls saying. She said she didn’t remember anyone objecting to her reasoning.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Getting into the Business\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leigh grew up in Queens, New York, with parents who were part of the Socialist Party. She refers to herself as a “red diaper baby.” While growing up in the 1970s, she and her mother became avid feminists. She loved the movement, but, Leigh said, feminism wasn’t a perfect fit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young woman's face.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg 891w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, at 18 years old, in Queens, New York \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood in regards to sexual expression and sexual identity,” Leigh recalled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this point, Leigh wasn’t a sex worker yet, but she was drawn to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said the feminist movement, which taught her that all men oppressed women, led her to repress her sexual desires. “I thought that was capitulating to the patriarchy,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wouldn’t be until her mid-20s, when Leigh moved to San Francisco, that she seriously considered sex work. She asked friends about the city’s massage parlor scene in the Tenderloin neighborhood. Leigh said she saw storefronts with signs that said “sex, massage, girls” in the neighborhood. She walked into one, a massage parlor called The Hong Kong on Jones Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had heard once you agreed to sell it, you crossed a line,” Leigh wrote in her book. “There was no turning back. I couldn’t resist. I took the dare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After her first day at work, she said she rode the BART train home and recalls looking at her reflection in the train car window. She looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh and other sex workers she met say they enjoyed the financial stability and flexibility that came with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It worked well for me with the work/life balance,” said Kate Marquez, a former sex worker at The Hong Kong and a good friend of Leigh’s. Marquez worked to support her 8-year-old daughter while putting herself through school. “Doing sex work was a great choice. I found this thing that actually worked for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh was fascinated by the strong way many of the workers at The Hong Kong dealt with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I met women who seemed like they were robust, rebellious and funny. And this is not what I expected,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Leigh’s budding activism for sex work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Except for certain parts of Nevada, prostitution laws make full-service sex work illegal throughout the country. Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years, in part because of the work of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of that movement in San Francisco was \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/191566\">Margo St. James\u003c/a>. She was a media darling and former sex worker turned activist who made sex work a labor issue. She fought for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1973, St. James helped found Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or \u003ca href=\"https://www.radcliffe.harvard.edu/schlesinger-library/collections/margo-st-james-and-coyote\">COYOTE\u003c/a>, a sex worker rights activist group. COYOTE meetings were a safe space for sex workers to trade notes on clients and warn each other about undercover cops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon after Leigh and Marquez became good friends at The Hong Kong, they began attending COYOTE meetings together. Leigh was immediately drawn to St. James’s sex-positive take on feminism, which imagined a fully empowered woman able to make any choices she desired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She made feminism make sense to me,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A central focus for COYOTE was advocating for the decriminalization of sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I worked at a massage parlor for a few months, but of course, the place got busted,” said Annie Sprinkle, a former adult film star from New York and another friend of Leigh’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Massage parlors have often been targets of undercover police stings. If a sex worker solicits an undercover cop, the parlor could be shut down. Advocates and former law enforcement have said these “\u003ca href=\"https://filtermag.org/decriminalize-sex-work/\">drug war tactics\u003c/a>” don’t do much to stop illegal sex work. Workers often return to other parlors or continue sex work in other ways that are potentially more dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>From the pleasurable to the political\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While Leigh was coming into her own as a sex worker and becoming more active with COYOTE, she wrote poetry and performed for audiences in coffee shops. She started taking acting classes with a teacher named Joya Cory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory said Leigh was open with her classmates about her life as a sex worker and had a great stage presence. A year later, Leigh shared that she was working on a project based on the poems she had written – a play about her life as a sex worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She told me about it, and she said, ‘Would you like to direct it?’ And it was about her career as a call girl,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory had never directed anything professionally before, but the material excited her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998542\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 575px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998542\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\" alt='Black and white image of a woman on the stage in a theater. She is lifting a paper bag off her head that reads \"This paper bag represents the anonymity that prostitutes are forced to adopt.\"' width=\"575\" height=\"766\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png 575w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488-160x213.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 575px) 100vw, 575px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol playing Scarlot in The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot at the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The play became a one-woman show called \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em>. Leigh would play Scarlot Harlot, a character she created that was an alter ego of her sex worker persona. She chose to spell the name Scarlot instead of Scarlet to suggest a ‘lot of scars.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although Leigh dyed her hair deep red for the role, Cory said the name Scarlot suited who she truly was, both on and off stage. “Carol was kind of a vanilla name. And Scarlot was not vanilla, she was anything but vanilla.” Scarlot wore sequin costumes, boas, wigs and occasionally lingerie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite Scarlot’s playful nature, Leigh wanted the character to deliver a political message in her play. She aimed to introduce audiences to the term “sex worker” and demystify their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt!” Scarlot shouts at the top of the play with a paper bag overhead. Then she rips it off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won’t remain anonymous. Sex workers unite!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In another scene from the play, Scarlot is appalled after learning the definition of prostitution. “The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause,” she reads aloud. “Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998352\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998352\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a woman reading a book. She is sitting crooked on a chair with her knees pulled up and feet in the air. Beneath her is a striking checkerboard floor.\" width=\"800\" height=\"544\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1020x694.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1536x1045.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, as Scarlot, reads the definition of prostitution in ‘The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot’ in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cory said Scarlot would turn to the audience and ask if they had ever done anything for money that went against their core values. “Half of them would raise their hands. And she’d say, ‘Ah! That’s prostitution,’” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The play toured the Bay Area for about four years. It was part of the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz and Scarlot even performed on a bill alongside Whoopi Goldberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh had ambitions of taking \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em> off-Broadway in New York. But the play closed in 1984, and by the mid-1980s, the AIDS crisis was in full swing. Leigh made the hard decision to put her play on hold and focused on AIDS activism.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Sex workers and AIDS activism\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a very scary time for sex workers,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS awareness group in San Francisco, before joining ACT UP.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1988, Leigh and members of COYOTE lobbied against a bill that required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for HIV. If they were positive, they could face criminal charges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This means that if a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive if she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony,” Leigh explained to a reporter at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and other members of COYOTE spoke to lawmakers and protested outside the Capitol in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy,” Sprinkle said. “Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work. She felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with, who she wants to go out with. And she should be safe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their efforts, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-01-26-mn-38568-story.html\">bill was signed into law\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh wouldn’t see her activism pay off for \u003ca href=\"https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2018/12/11/successful-hiv-criminalization-reform-in-california-q-and-a-with-sen-scott-wiener/\">almost 30 years later\u003c/a>. In 2017, the state legislature repealed the law along with other similar HIV criminalization laws like it and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new chapter for Scarlot Harlot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That experience had galvanized Leigh and showed her that to win the rights of sex workers, she needed to take Scarlot to new heights. She did talk show appearances, spoke on panels at universities, wrote music about safe sex and traveled the world as Scarlot Harlot, meeting with sex worker groups in Taiwan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over time, the term “sex worker” would appear in academic journals and public health studies because of advocacy from COYOTE members Margo St. James and Priscilla Alexander. However, it was Leigh’s character, Scarlot Harlot, who would popularize it within the sex worker community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just thought that I was doing something dirty, secretive and shameful,” said Savannah Sly, co-founder of New Moon Network, a philanthropic organization for sex worker activists. As a sex worker, Sly said she looked up to Scarlot Harlot. “[She] gave me a word that was dignified and described it as a labor form.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sly adds that Leigh knew there was \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclusocal.org/en/know-your-rights/sex-worker-rights-california\">always work to be done\u003c/a> in the sex worker community. That included recognizing that the term “sex worker” is not a one-size-fits-all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As the movement evolves, I’ve seen erotic laborers, professional lovers, exotic dancers, adult content creators,” she said. Sex work will always be the root of these professions, Sly said, but adds, “Not all sex workers are comfortable with the phrase ‘sex work’ because it does sound like it describes prostitution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friends of Leigh said she was always learning from younger sex worker activists and recognized that not all sex workers have the same experiences and many come to the profession from different backgrounds or for different reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg\" alt=\"A woman in a strapless red dress with a red feathered hat cuddles up next to a man dressed as Santa Claus.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg 1280w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Christmas card from Scarlot Harlot \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Leigh cements her legacy\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, Leigh helped create the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival or Sex Worker Fest. The film festival features independent films from sex workers, workshops and community events throughout San Francisco. Elizabeth Dayton, the current Director of Sex Fest, said Leigh thought it was important for sex workers to be able to share their own stories in “a dedicated space for the community to celebrate their art.” The festival runs every two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That same year, Leigh, Margo St. James and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. This free clinic, the first of its kind in the country, offered confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area and housing assistance for the trans community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early 1990s, Carol Leigh started working with Joseph Kramer, a sexologist and sex educator. They made hundreds of sex education videos that focused on sexual massage for couples. The job allowed Leigh to hone her video editing skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She kept a record of her work by filming her own activism, then producing interviews and short documentaries. Her archives can be found at the Schlesinger Library on the History of Women in America at Harvard University alongside those of Margo St. James.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998541\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998541\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Portrait of a middle aged woman with wavy grey hair in a leather jacket.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg 986w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portrait of Carol Leigh \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Leigh died from cancer on Nov. 16, 2022. She was surrounded and supported by her close friends, Beth Stephens, Annie Sprinkle and Kate Marquez, in the final days of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got to go over there and be with her body and put some flowers on her,” Sprinkle said. “And be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet body bag. She did a really good job planning for her death. Amazingly well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before she died, Carol established a trust, one that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported her daughter’s sex worker career from the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beneficiaries included 86 different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need, including the New Moon Network, Third Wave Sex Worker Giving Circle and Red Umbrella Fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It] was amazing to see this person who never made a lot of money become a big philanthropist,” said Kate Marquez, now the executor of Leigh’s estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Annie Sprinkle said Carol Leigh never stopped trying to keep sex workers safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998544\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 756px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998544\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\" alt=\"Art print of a woman with curly red hair, a red feathered hat and red lipstick.\" width=\"756\" height=\"1006\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg 756w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print-160x213.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 756px) 100vw, 756px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An art print of Scarlot Harlot created by Carol Leigh’s friend and fellow sex worker, Annie Sprinkle. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Annie Sprinkle)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Sex worker rights activist Carol Leigh took care of her community with great flair and a lot of heart.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1722897047,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":67,"wordCount":2571},"headData":{"title":"How Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work | KQED","description":"Sex worker rights activist Carol Leigh took care of her community with great flair and a lot of heart.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"How Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work","datePublished":"2024-08-03T07:30:39-07:00","dateModified":"2024-08-05T15:30:47-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC2054077849.mp3?updated=1722482969","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11998507","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11998507/how-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11998339/transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look up Carol Leigh or “Scarlot Harlot” online, you’ll learn that she’s credited with coining the term “sex worker.” Today, it’s used by activists, public health officials, lawmakers and the media to describe those working in the sex industry, and it’s revolutionized the way we talk about the profession.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The term came to Leigh in 1978 when she attended a workshop hosted by a group of feminists in San Francisco. The group, Women Against Violence in Pornography and Media or WAVPM, thought all women in the sex industry were being oppressed by men and held \u003ca href=\"https://www.thecut.com/2019/03/sex-lies-and-andrea-dworkin.html\">anti-sex work points of view\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp> Leigh was familiar with this argument, but she made it a point to understand their opposing perspective. She writes in her memoir “Unrepentant Whore: The Collected Works of Scarlot Harlot” that she identified herself as a prostitute to the group. She said the name of the workshop referenced the “sex use industry.” That name embarrassed her. So, she spoke out against it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If we’re a feminist, we should be defining it not by what the men do – the men use the services – but by what the women do. Women do sex work,” Leigh recalls saying. She said she didn’t remember anyone objecting to her reasoning.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Getting into the Business\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Leigh grew up in Queens, New York, with parents who were part of the Socialist Party. She refers to herself as a “red diaper baby.” While growing up in the 1970s, she and her mother became avid feminists. She loved the movement, but, Leigh said, feminism wasn’t a perfect fit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998536\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998536\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white portrait of a young woman's face.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-at-eighteen-years-old_courtesy-of-Leigh-estate-1.jpg 891w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, at 18 years old, in Queens, New York \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood in regards to sexual expression and sexual identity,” Leigh recalled.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At this point, Leigh wasn’t a sex worker yet, but she was drawn to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She said the feminist movement, which taught her that all men oppressed women, led her to repress her sexual desires. “I thought that was capitulating to the patriarchy,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wouldn’t be until her mid-20s, when Leigh moved to San Francisco, that she seriously considered sex work. She asked friends about the city’s massage parlor scene in the Tenderloin neighborhood. Leigh said she saw storefronts with signs that said “sex, massage, girls” in the neighborhood. She walked into one, a massage parlor called The Hong Kong on Jones Street.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I had heard once you agreed to sell it, you crossed a line,” Leigh wrote in her book. “There was no turning back. I couldn’t resist. I took the dare.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After her first day at work, she said she rode the BART train home and recalls looking at her reflection in the train car window. She looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh and other sex workers she met say they enjoyed the financial stability and flexibility that came with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It worked well for me with the work/life balance,” said Kate Marquez, a former sex worker at The Hong Kong and a good friend of Leigh’s. Marquez worked to support her 8-year-old daughter while putting herself through school. “Doing sex work was a great choice. I found this thing that actually worked for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh was fascinated by the strong way many of the workers at The Hong Kong dealt with sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I met women who seemed like they were robust, rebellious and funny. And this is not what I expected,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Leigh’s budding activism for sex work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Except for certain parts of Nevada, prostitution laws make full-service sex work illegal throughout the country. Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years, in part because of the work of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At the center of that movement in San Francisco was \u003ca href=\"https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/191566\">Margo St. James\u003c/a>. She was a media darling and former sex worker turned activist who made sex work a labor issue. She fought for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1973, St. James helped found Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or \u003ca href=\"https://www.radcliffe.harvard.edu/schlesinger-library/collections/margo-st-james-and-coyote\">COYOTE\u003c/a>, a sex worker rights activist group. COYOTE meetings were a safe space for sex workers to trade notes on clients and warn each other about undercover cops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Soon after Leigh and Marquez became good friends at The Hong Kong, they began attending COYOTE meetings together. Leigh was immediately drawn to St. James’s sex-positive take on feminism, which imagined a fully empowered woman able to make any choices she desired.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She made feminism make sense to me,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A central focus for COYOTE was advocating for the decriminalization of sex work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I worked at a massage parlor for a few months, but of course, the place got busted,” said Annie Sprinkle, a former adult film star from New York and another friend of Leigh’s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Massage parlors have often been targets of undercover police stings. If a sex worker solicits an undercover cop, the parlor could be shut down. Advocates and former law enforcement have said these “\u003ca href=\"https://filtermag.org/decriminalize-sex-work/\">drug war tactics\u003c/a>” don’t do much to stop illegal sex work. Workers often return to other parlors or continue sex work in other ways that are potentially more dangerous.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>From the pleasurable to the political\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>While Leigh was coming into her own as a sex worker and becoming more active with COYOTE, she wrote poetry and performed for audiences in coffee shops. She started taking acting classes with a teacher named Joya Cory.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory said Leigh was open with her classmates about her life as a sex worker and had a great stage presence. A year later, Leigh shared that she was working on a project based on the poems she had written – a play about her life as a sex worker.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She told me about it, and she said, ‘Would you like to direct it?’ And it was about her career as a call girl,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cory had never directed anything professionally before, but the material excited her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998542\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 575px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998542\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png\" alt='Black and white image of a woman on the stage in a theater. She is lifting a paper bag off her head that reads \"This paper bag represents the anonymity that prostitutes are forced to adopt.\"' width=\"575\" height=\"766\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488.png 575w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot_This-Paper-Bag_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-e1722557982488-160x213.png 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 575px) 100vw, 575px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol playing Scarlot in The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot at the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The play became a one-woman show called \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em>. Leigh would play Scarlot Harlot, a character she created that was an alter ego of her sex worker persona. She chose to spell the name Scarlot instead of Scarlet to suggest a ‘lot of scars.’\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Although Leigh dyed her hair deep red for the role, Cory said the name Scarlot suited who she truly was, both on and off stage. “Carol was kind of a vanilla name. And Scarlot was not vanilla, she was anything but vanilla.” Scarlot wore sequin costumes, boas, wigs and occasionally lingerie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite Scarlot’s playful nature, Leigh wanted the character to deliver a political message in her play. She aimed to introduce audiences to the term “sex worker” and demystify their work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt!” Scarlot shouts at the top of the play with a paper bag overhead. Then she rips it off.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We won’t remain anonymous. Sex workers unite!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In another scene from the play, Scarlot is appalled after learning the definition of prostitution. “The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause,” she reads aloud. “Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998352\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998352\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg\" alt=\"Black and white image of a woman reading a book. She is sitting crooked on a chair with her knees pulled up and feet in the air. Beneath her is a striking checkerboard floor.\" width=\"800\" height=\"544\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-800x544.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1020x694.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-160x109.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot-1536x1045.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/ScarlotHarlot.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Carol Leigh, as Scarlot, reads the definition of prostitution in ‘The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot’ in 1983. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Cory said Scarlot would turn to the audience and ask if they had ever done anything for money that went against their core values. “Half of them would raise their hands. And she’d say, ‘Ah! That’s prostitution,’” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The play toured the Bay Area for about four years. It was part of the National Festival of Women’s Theater in Santa Cruz and Scarlot even performed on a bill alongside Whoopi Goldberg.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that,” Cory said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh had ambitions of taking \u003cem>The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/em> off-Broadway in New York. But the play closed in 1984, and by the mid-1980s, the AIDS crisis was in full swing. Leigh made the hard decision to put her play on hold and focused on AIDS activism.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Sex workers and AIDS activism\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was a very scary time for sex workers,” Leigh said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS awareness group in San Francisco, before joining ACT UP.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1988, Leigh and members of COYOTE lobbied against a bill that required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for HIV. If they were positive, they could face criminal charges.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This means that if a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive if she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony,” Leigh explained to a reporter at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She and other members of COYOTE spoke to lawmakers and protested outside the Capitol in Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy,” Sprinkle said. “Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work. She felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with, who she wants to go out with. And she should be safe.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite their efforts, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1988-01-26-mn-38568-story.html\">bill was signed into law\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Leigh wouldn’t see her activism pay off for \u003ca href=\"https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2018/12/11/successful-hiv-criminalization-reform-in-california-q-and-a-with-sen-scott-wiener/\">almost 30 years later\u003c/a>. In 2017, the state legislature repealed the law along with other similar HIV criminalization laws like it and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A new chapter for Scarlot Harlot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That experience had galvanized Leigh and showed her that to win the rights of sex workers, she needed to take Scarlot to new heights. She did talk show appearances, spoke on panels at universities, wrote music about safe sex and traveled the world as Scarlot Harlot, meeting with sex worker groups in Taiwan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over time, the term “sex worker” would appear in academic journals and public health studies because of advocacy from COYOTE members Margo St. James and Priscilla Alexander. However, it was Leigh’s character, Scarlot Harlot, who would popularize it within the sex worker community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just thought that I was doing something dirty, secretive and shameful,” said Savannah Sly, co-founder of New Moon Network, a philanthropic organization for sex worker activists. As a sex worker, Sly said she looked up to Scarlot Harlot. “[She] gave me a word that was dignified and described it as a labor form.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sly adds that Leigh knew there was \u003ca href=\"https://www.aclusocal.org/en/know-your-rights/sex-worker-rights-california\">always work to be done\u003c/a> in the sex worker community. That included recognizing that the term “sex worker” is not a one-size-fits-all.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“As the movement evolves, I’ve seen erotic laborers, professional lovers, exotic dancers, adult content creators,” she said. Sex work will always be the root of these professions, Sly said, but adds, “Not all sex workers are comfortable with the phrase ‘sex work’ because it does sound like it describes prostitution.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Friends of Leigh said she was always learning from younger sex worker activists and recognized that not all sex workers have the same experiences and many come to the profession from different backgrounds or for different reasons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998543\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998543\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg\" alt=\"A woman in a strapless red dress with a red feathered hat cuddles up next to a man dressed as Santa Claus.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-800x533.jpeg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-1020x680.jpeg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate-160x107.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-with-Santa_courtesy-of-Carol-Leigh-estate.jpeg 1280w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A Christmas card from Scarlot Harlot \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>Leigh cements her legacy\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1999, Leigh helped create the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival or Sex Worker Fest. The film festival features independent films from sex workers, workshops and community events throughout San Francisco. Elizabeth Dayton, the current Director of Sex Fest, said Leigh thought it was important for sex workers to be able to share their own stories in “a dedicated space for the community to celebrate their art.” The festival runs every two years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That same year, Leigh, Margo St. James and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. This free clinic, the first of its kind in the country, offered confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area and housing assistance for the trans community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the early 1990s, Carol Leigh started working with Joseph Kramer, a sexologist and sex educator. They made hundreds of sex education videos that focused on sexual massage for couples. The job allowed Leigh to hone her video editing skills.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>She kept a record of her work by filming her own activism, then producing interviews and short documentaries. Her archives can be found at the Schlesinger Library on the History of Women in America at Harvard University alongside those of Margo St. James.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998541\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11998541\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg\" alt=\"Portrait of a middle aged woman with wavy grey hair in a leather jacket.\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-800x800.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair-160x160.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Carol-Leigh-grey-hair.jpg 986w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A portrait of Carol Leigh \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the Carol Leigh estate)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Leigh died from cancer on Nov. 16, 2022. She was surrounded and supported by her close friends, Beth Stephens, Annie Sprinkle and Kate Marquez, in the final days of her life.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I got to go over there and be with her body and put some flowers on her,” Sprinkle said. “And be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet body bag. She did a really good job planning for her death. Amazingly well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before she died, Carol established a trust, one that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported her daughter’s sex worker career from the beginning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The beneficiaries included 86 different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need, including the New Moon Network, Third Wave Sex Worker Giving Circle and Red Umbrella Fund.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[It] was amazing to see this person who never made a lot of money become a big philanthropist,” said Kate Marquez, now the executor of Leigh’s estate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Annie Sprinkle said Carol Leigh never stopped trying to keep sex workers safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11998544\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 756px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11998544\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg\" alt=\"Art print of a woman with curly red hair, a red feathered hat and red lipstick.\" width=\"756\" height=\"1006\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print.jpg 756w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/08/Scarlot-Art-Print-160x213.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 756px) 100vw, 756px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An art print of Scarlot Harlot created by Carol Leigh’s friend and fellow sex worker, Annie Sprinkle. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Annie Sprinkle)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11998507/how-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work","authors":["11816"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8"],"tags":["news_27626","news_3136"],"featImg":"news_11998509","label":"news_33523"},"news_11998339":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11998339","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11998339","score":null,"sort":[1722506421000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work","title":"Transcript: Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work","publishDate":1722506421,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Transcript: Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life’s Work | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>It has been called “the world’s oldest profession,” but it’s not one that’s often discussed openly. Of course, we’re talking about sex work. Attitudes about certain parts of the industry—from porn to strip clubs—have evolved over time, and so has the language used to discuss it. Even the term “sex work” is relatively new. This week, reporter Steven Rascón brings us the story of the woman who coined the term, and the history of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work—some of which is criminalized in California. And it includes some outdated language.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Quick note before we get started – This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work, some of which is criminalized in California, and it includes some outdated language.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a $14 billion dollar industry in the United States, but you’re unlikely to read about it in the Wall Street Journal. It’s been called the world’s oldest profession, but you can’t go to college for it. It’s been a part of our region’s story since the earliest days of the Gold Rush and yet, our history books tend to skim over some details. I’m talking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[baycuriousbug] \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From the early days in San Francisco, when brothels lined Pacific Avenue to the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s that saw a proliferation of strip clubs, porn shops, and massage parlors– Sex has practically always been for sale in this town. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in part because of the work of activists with The Sex Worker Rights Movement. At the center of that movement in the 70s was Margo St. James, a former sex worker in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed the mobility, I enjoyed the money, the freedom that it gave me to move around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">St. James was an activist who made sex work a\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> labor\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> issue. She argued that it was a job like any other – something you did to pay the bills. And these workers deserved the same safety and health care protections as anyone else. Standing just beside her in that early fight was another activist in the movement…\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve been a prostitute and a prostitute rights advocate for more than 10 years. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her name is Carol Leigh but she’s probably best known by the name “Scarlot Harlot.” She took a flamboyant approach to fighting the stigma around sex work. And she spoke openly about it in a way that sometimes took people by surprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People always ask how did a nice girl like you ever get started in this line of work? But, you know, there’s a popular misconception. Actually, prostitutes are very very nice. That’s part of the skill that we need in order to keep our clientele.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we’re shining a light on Carol Leigh – \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> who is credited with transforming how sex workers talk about the profession \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and so much more. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious – the show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Carol Leigh was an activist in San Francisco who fought for the legitimacy of sex worker rights. Reporter Steven Rascón brings us Carol’s story. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met Carol over Zoom in 2021. She was 70 years old at the time, and told me about how she grew up in a socialist family in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My mother on Long Island. She was an avid feminist. We kind of became feminists in the early seventies at the same time together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol was a graduate student at Boston University studying creative writing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She wanted to be a poet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She also prided herself on being a feminist, she loved how the movement called for equal opportunity for women. How it demanded they not be objectified. But for Carol it wasn’t a perfect fit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood, In regards to sexual expression and sexual identity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point Carol wasn’t doing sex work yet. But she was drawn to it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now I had been curious about prostitution, but still as a feminist, I did feel like it was a capitulation to men. Cause you know, we would give them blow jobs. And they didn’t even have to be nice to us. I thought that sounded like a bad thing. And then I had all kinds of stereotype visions of what the experience was like, of course, it being degrading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually, she would give in to her sexual curiosities. First, in small doses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I was, uh, mid twenties, I danced at the golden banana in Peabody, Massachusetts on amateur night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Golden Banana. A small strip club. Carol dressed up in lingerie and did a silly burlesque number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: It was fun and I loved it. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The audience of mostly businessmen also loved her “lusty little comedy” bit, as she called it. Then in 1978, Carol moved to San Francisco. She wanted something different from the east coast. But the city was expensive and Carol was strapped for cash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I basically didn’t have much money. I always tried to live hand to mouth, I worked as a waitress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol worked a number of odd jobs but nothing seemed to stick. So she asked about the massage parlor scene. She saw storefronts in the Tenderloin neighborhood that said “sex, massage, girls” she walked into one– a massage parlor called The Hong Kong.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sleazy massage parlor. I knew they sold sex because they weren’t selling ambiance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She says\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> that’s\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> when she gave a blow job to her first client. She wrote about the experience in her memoir: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unrepentant Whore: The collected works of Scarlot Harlot. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She writes “he was a guy in his mid 30’s”– cuter than most of her boyfriends. Then on her way home, she says she saw her reflection in the train car window, looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.” \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was working amongst women from all over the world. I was fascinated with how they dealt with prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol got to know her co-workers. Over time, the negative stereo-types she’d heard about sex work and those doing it, started to fade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met women who seemed like they were robust and rebellious and funny, and this is not what I expected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol liked the flexibility of the job. She worked during the day and focused on her writing at night. And she wanted to meet \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> workers. And get involved with issues that mattered to her… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So the first thing I did probably within a week or two was look for Margo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo as in Margo St. James – a big name in the community who started Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or COYOTE for short – the activist group for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">my goal is, of course, is complete decriminalization of sex for human beings, just because we’re getting paid for our time doesn’t mean it has to be, uh, uh, you know, something you go to jail for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo had strong relationships with the press and with local lawmakers. Carol remembers seeing Margo at her first COYOTE meeting. She says Margo used her quick wit to cut through the hypocrisy of the issues. But it was Margo’s sex positive attitude as a feminist that really inspired Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From knowing Margo and knowing her message. I saw that there is another feminism and she made feminism make sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol continued going to COYOTE meetings. And at one of those meetings she met Annie Sprinkle, a sex worker living in New York at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my God, so Caro Leigh. We became friends in the late 70s through COYOTE and Sex Worker Rights and through Margo St. James. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol and Annie bonded over a lot. They were both Jewish girls from middle class families. They loved art, film and theater. And for them sex work was a means of financial stability. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were independent and we chose to do it. Nobody forced us to be prostitutes. We chose to do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They both had started doing sex work in massage parlors. And they both noticed the same issues…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I worked in a massage parlor for three months. But of course the place got busted… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Massage parlors were easy targets for undercover police stings because of how public\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they were. If a worker solicited an undercover cop at one of these parlors, they could be arrested. But Carol and Annie noticed this didn’t do anything to stop consensual sex workers. All it did was give them a criminal record. Typically someone who was arrested would go back to a different\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We knew that criminalizing sex work was just basically wrong. We were all aware that what we were doing was dangerous.\u003c/span> \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually Carol and Annie started working independently with their own roster of clients, as call girls. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They often exchanged notes about clients at COYOTE meetings to know who was trustworthy \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and not a cop\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1978, the same year she joined COYOTE, Carol became a spokesperson for the group. She was an outspoken and proud sex worker. It was a vulnerable position but she thought it was important to share her experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was always going around and trying to present a sex worker’s point of view at different locations with COYOTE.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One day, she went to a talk led by a group of feminists about how the porn industry took advantage of women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And There was a workshop about the “sex use” industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group referred to it as the sex use industry because they felt all women in the sex trade were being oppressed. Carol was familiar with this argument. She noticed the name of the workshop and spoke up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I looked at that and I thought, wait, if we’re a feminist, we should be defining it. Not by what the men do, the men use, the services, but by what the women do, women do sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Sex work” Nobody had ever referred to (it) as sex work then. But Carol made the case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We always felt that it was work //You show up for your job, you have a schedule and you do it just like you would a manicure or something like that. It was just work. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew most people wouldn’t agree with her because they saw what she was doing as a moral issue not a labor one.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I understood that those who are opposed to prostitution. Were resisting, seeing it as work, So I felt like that was one difference that I wanted to highlight, so I coined the term “sex work”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sex work, yeah. I had not heard the term before, before I met Carol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Joya Corey, an acting teacher in the Bay Area. Carol wasn’t just being a spokesperson for COYOTE at the time. She was also working with Joya and taking her acting classes. Carol loved making art and dabbled in all kinds – painting, guitar, writing. And she loved poetry most of all. A friend of hers said she spent almost every day of the week at coffee shops reading her poems for small audiences. But Carol had bigger ambitions. She wanted to make her poems into a play.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She told me about it and said would you like to direct it? It was about her career as a call girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Joya didn’t know anything about the life of a sex worker then but she was interested. So they got started on the play. It would be a one-woman show and Carol would play a character she created called “Scarlot Harlot”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I thought it fitted her better. That name fitted her better than Carol. Carol’s like a vanilla name and Scarlet was not vanilla. She was anything but vanilla.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol dyed her hair deep red for Scarlot. And wore red lipstick to match. Her curly hair gave her an extra inch or two of height. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She had that luscious kind of full body. She was tall, she was a fairly big woman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She spelled Scarlot as Scar-LOT as in lots of scars. She was like an alter ego. A high femme, uninhibited version of Carol. Shameless. Bold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she was really flamboyant. She wore big hair, big costumes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so sassy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would really like to marry a rich producer. I think that’s really like the perfect kind of prostitution for me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had an idea for the play. She would name it, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and in it she would introduce audiences to the term “sex work” and what it meant to her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I wrote a piece where Scarlot comes out and the first thing she’s kind of blind. She has a paper bag on her head. This paper bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And then she takes the paper bag off. And her first words are “sex workers unite!”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sex workers unite! We won’t remain anonymous!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was the beginning of her being a political artist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it wasn’t just political. Carol had fun with the play. She wrote a scene where Scarlot is confronted with the definition of prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Prostitution: One. 1. Trading sexual services for money or goods. 2. The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She would ask the audience directly. Have you ever done anything for money that goes against your core values? Raise your hand if you have. And half the audience would raise their hand and she’d say, ah, that’s prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have more money than I’ve ever had before!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People were entertained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Color tv!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if they were paying attention, would shift their thinking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Push button fireplace!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The play toured different small theaters across the bay area for about four years. Audiences were curious to see what the life of a sex worker was like. And Scarlot did not hold back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We all know that we don’t want to confine ourselves to being sexual objects, but our sexuality is a resource for us. I think it’s very important that we start making the money from our own sexuality and put it into our own causes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really her political proclivities were beginning to come forth, you know, to be an activist. And, in the doing of this show, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlet Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, she started to realize that she wanted to be an activist for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had aspirations of taking Scarlot off-Broadway in New York. But then, Carol writes in her book that Margo and COYOTE had warned her about a mysterious sexually transmitted disease. COYOTE started urging everyone to use condoms. Carol’s focus was turning. She writes, “The whore stigma was no longer my most pressing issue.” By 1984, the disease was more than just a rumor. The AIDS crisis was in full swing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the beginning, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a very scary time for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point, Carol is stuck at a crossroads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was always very worried about not being able to fulfill the needs I would have as an artist to develop my work and also be an activist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew sex workers could be a valuable voice in educating the public on how to reduce the spread of the virus. So she put her play on hold and joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS Awareness group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The solution is like IV drug hygiene, it’s recovery programs, it’s needles. The solution to the crisis is education, it’s not punishing people because they have a disease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I became very involved and this is really where I learned how to be an activist and organizer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A bill criminalizing sex workers for spreading the virus was making its way through the California legislature. It was referred to as a “mandatory testing law”. It required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for AIDS. Testing positive came with criminal charges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Group chanting [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“You say hey, we say no, mandatory testing has got to go!…”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Newscast: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill to force prostitutes to be tested for AIDS is now in the state senate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This means that a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive. If she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill had already passed the state house in a 65-8 vote and was in committee. On the day of the final vote, Carol and members of COYOTE drove to Sacramento to lobby members of the state assembly to vote against the law. Despite their efforts, the bill passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is inhumane, we’re absolutely shocked, we’re against all mandatory testing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy. Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work that she felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with. who she wants to go out with, and she should be safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It wouldn’t be until almost 30 years later that Carol’s activism would pay off. In 2017, the legislature repealed the law and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it. The crisis and the laws had galvanized Carol. It showed her that to win their rights, sex workers needed a voice on the larger stage. She found a way to use Scarlot to reach a wider audience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I knew that I needed to be Scarlot Harlot and go around the world and tell everyone what it’s like to be a prostitute in case they wanted to know, because people usually do want to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Scarlot did talk show appearances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, pretty much I fake it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Announcer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Corporate Call Girls on the next Geraldo… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Safe sex!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she wrote music..Carol would start several organizations like the Bay Area Sex Worker Advocacy Network and the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival here in San Francisco. Scarlot elevated the movement. And became a role model for a new generation of sex workers across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bedroom is the last frontier. Condoms leave a souvenir. Safe sex! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1999, Carol, Margo, and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. A free clinic offering confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area. The clinic was the first of its kind in the country. When I talked to Carol in January 2021 she wasn’t doing as many high profile gigs. But she did tell me something else she had learned from Margo, what “her north star” was for the movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The prostitutes rights agenda should be determined by what impacts the most vulnerable people in our communities, those who are impacted by the laws. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those communities today include Black and Trans sex workers, as well as undocumented workers. And they’re the groups that Carol says she spent her time with in Zoom meetings, connecting with them, listening to their unique challenges and how they navigate sex work. She did this while she was battling cancer\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was diagnosed five years ago, stage four cancer. That seems really serious. You know I get scared of dying soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she remained active in her own way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As I get this old 70 that’s pretty old. So. I love zoom and I mean, I’m in so many sex worker groups now, and I tried to find a new role for myself, uh, or the right role, the best role now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol passed away two years after our conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was pretty devastated when she died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie and her closest friends surrounded her in her final moments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and I got to go over there. And be with her body, and put some flowers on her and be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet, a red velvet body bag. And she did a really good job planning for her death, amazingly well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Scarlot had one more trick up her sleeve. Before she died, Carol established a trust that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported Carol’s sex worker career from the beginning. The beneficiaries included eighty-six different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> She, in her death, became a philanthropist. And she was almost embarrassed that she had money at the end\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a letter to her beneficiaries, Carol wrote “My mother, Augusta, wanted me to use her savings to support my life and work.” Carol also left behind her poems, excerpts from her play as Scarlot, and many news articles that quoted her.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the goddess of compassion, and she always wears the latest in fashion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie reads me a poem she wrote for Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the gal we love the best, the finest whore in all of the West. She’s made the world a more wonderful place. All this and more. Plus she’ll sit on your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s so fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That story was reported and produced by Steven Rascón.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decades after Carol introduced the term “sex worker” in her play, Margo St. James and others in COYOTE started using it regularly to describe the movement with lawmakers, the press, and public health officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The term found its way into studies from the World Health Organization and the National Institutes of Health. Today, the phrase that Carol coined has revolutionized the way the world talks about the profession.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Currently in California, soliciting sex in exchange for money may be punishable with fines and jail time.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Activists continue their efforts to decriminalize all forms of sex work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today’s episode was produced by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Jen Chien, Nastia Voynovskaya, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, And the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Sex worker rights activist Carol Leigh took care of her community until her death. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1722549367,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":135,"wordCount":4443},"headData":{"title":"Transcript: Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work | KQED","description":"Sex worker rights activist Carol Leigh took care of her community until her death. ","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Transcript: Scarlot Harlot Made Sex Worker Rights Her Life's Work","datePublished":"2024-08-01T03:00:21-07:00","dateModified":"2024-08-01T14:56:07-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC2054077849.mp3?updated=1722462985","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11998339","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11998339/transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>It has been called “the world’s oldest profession,” but it’s not one that’s often discussed openly. Of course, we’re talking about sex work. Attitudes about certain parts of the industry—from porn to strip clubs—have evolved over time, and so has the language used to discuss it. Even the term “sex work” is relatively new. This week, reporter Steven Rascón brings us the story of the woman who coined the term, and the history of the sex worker rights movement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work—some of which is criminalized in California. And it includes some outdated language.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Quick note before we get started – This episode contains frank discussions about sexual acts, and sex work, some of which is criminalized in California, and it includes some outdated language.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a $14 billion dollar industry in the United States, but you’re unlikely to read about it in the Wall Street Journal. It’s been called the world’s oldest profession, but you can’t go to college for it. It’s been a part of our region’s story since the earliest days of the Gold Rush and yet, our history books tend to skim over some details. I’m talking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n What do you wonder about the Bay Area, its culture or people that you want KQED to investigate?\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Ask Bay Curious.\u003c/a>\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp> \u003c/span>\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From the early days in San Francisco, when brothels lined Pacific Avenue to the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s that saw a proliferation of strip clubs, porn shops, and massage parlors– Sex has practically always been for sale in this town. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Public attitudes about fully decriminalizing sex work have swung back and forth over the years,\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in part because of the work of activists with The Sex Worker Rights Movement. At the center of that movement in the 70s was Margo St. James, a former sex worker in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I enjoyed it very much. I enjoyed the mobility, I enjoyed the money, the freedom that it gave me to move around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">St. James was an activist who made sex work a\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> labor\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> issue. She argued that it was a job like any other – something you did to pay the bills. And these workers deserved the same safety and health care protections as anyone else. Standing just beside her in that early fight was another activist in the movement…\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ve been a prostitute and a prostitute rights advocate for more than 10 years. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her name is Carol Leigh but she’s probably best known by the name “Scarlot Harlot.” She took a flamboyant approach to fighting the stigma around sex work. And she spoke openly about it in a way that sometimes took people by surprise. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People always ask how did a nice girl like you ever get started in this line of work? But, you know, there’s a popular misconception. Actually, prostitutes are very very nice. That’s part of the skill that we need in order to keep our clientele.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today on Bay Curious, we’re shining a light on Carol Leigh – \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> who is credited with transforming how sex workers talk about the profession \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and so much more. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious – the show that explores the hidden true stories of the San Francisco Bay Area. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>[SPONSOR MESSAGE]\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Carol Leigh was an activist in San Francisco who fought for the legitimacy of sex worker rights. Reporter Steven Rascón brings us Carol’s story. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci>\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met Carol over Zoom in 2021. She was 70 years old at the time, and told me about how she grew up in a socialist family in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My mother on Long Island. She was an avid feminist. We kind of became feminists in the early seventies at the same time together. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol was a graduate student at Boston University studying creative writing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She wanted to be a poet.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She also prided herself on being a feminist, she loved how the movement called for equal opportunity for women. How it demanded they not be objectified. But for Carol it wasn’t a perfect fit. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There were problems within feminism that I hadn’t really understood, In regards to sexual expression and sexual identity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point Carol wasn’t doing sex work yet. But she was drawn to it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now I had been curious about prostitution, but still as a feminist, I did feel like it was a capitulation to men. Cause you know, we would give them blow jobs. And they didn’t even have to be nice to us. I thought that sounded like a bad thing. And then I had all kinds of stereotype visions of what the experience was like, of course, it being degrading.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually, she would give in to her sexual curiosities. First, in small doses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I was, uh, mid twenties, I danced at the golden banana in Peabody, Massachusetts on amateur night. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Golden Banana. A small strip club. Carol dressed up in lingerie and did a silly burlesque number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: It was fun and I loved it. \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The audience of mostly businessmen also loved her “lusty little comedy” bit, as she called it. Then in 1978, Carol moved to San Francisco. She wanted something different from the east coast. But the city was expensive and Carol was strapped for cash. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I basically didn’t have much money. I always tried to live hand to mouth, I worked as a waitress. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol worked a number of odd jobs but nothing seemed to stick. So she asked about the massage parlor scene. She saw storefronts in the Tenderloin neighborhood that said “sex, massage, girls” she walked into one– a massage parlor called The Hong Kong.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sleazy massage parlor. I knew they sold sex because they weren’t selling ambiance. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She says\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> that’s\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> when she gave a blow job to her first client. She wrote about the experience in her memoir: \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unrepentant Whore: The collected works of Scarlot Harlot. \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She writes “he was a guy in his mid 30’s”– cuter than most of her boyfriends. Then on her way home, she says she saw her reflection in the train car window, looked at herself and said proudly, “Now there’s a prostitute.” \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was working amongst women from all over the world. I was fascinated with how they dealt with prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol got to know her co-workers. Over time, the negative stereo-types she’d heard about sex work and those doing it, started to fade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met women who seemed like they were robust and rebellious and funny, and this is not what I expected. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol liked the flexibility of the job. She worked during the day and focused on her writing at night. And she wanted to meet \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">other\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> workers. And get involved with issues that mattered to her… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So the first thing I did probably within a week or two was look for Margo. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo as in Margo St. James – a big name in the community who started Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics or COYOTE for short – the activist group for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Margo St. James: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">my goal is, of course, is complete decriminalization of sex for human beings, just because we’re getting paid for our time doesn’t mean it has to be, uh, uh, you know, something you go to jail for.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Margo had strong relationships with the press and with local lawmakers. Carol remembers seeing Margo at her first COYOTE meeting. She says Margo used her quick wit to cut through the hypocrisy of the issues. But it was Margo’s sex positive attitude as a feminist that really inspired Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From knowing Margo and knowing her message. I saw that there is another feminism and she made feminism make sense to me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol continued going to COYOTE meetings. And at one of those meetings she met Annie Sprinkle, a sex worker living in New York at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh my God, so Caro Leigh. We became friends in the late 70s through COYOTE and Sex Worker Rights and through Margo St. James. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol and Annie bonded over a lot. They were both Jewish girls from middle class families. They loved art, film and theater. And for them sex work was a means of financial stability. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We were independent and we chose to do it. Nobody forced us to be prostitutes. We chose to do it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They both had started doing sex work in massage parlors. And they both noticed the same issues…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I worked in a massage parlor for three months. But of course the place got busted… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Massage parlors were easy targets for undercover police stings because of how public\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">they were. If a worker solicited an undercover cop at one of these parlors, they could be arrested. But Carol and Annie noticed this didn’t do anything to stop consensual sex workers. All it did was give them a criminal record. Typically someone who was arrested would go back to a different\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">parlor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We knew that criminalizing sex work was just basically wrong. We were all aware that what we were doing was dangerous.\u003c/span> \u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Eventually Carol and Annie started working independently with their own roster of clients, as call girls. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They often exchanged notes about clients at COYOTE meetings to know who was trustworthy \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and not a cop\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1978, the same year she joined COYOTE, Carol became a spokesperson for the group. She was an outspoken and proud sex worker. It was a vulnerable position but she thought it was important to share her experience.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was always going around and trying to present a sex worker’s point of view at different locations with COYOTE.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One day, she went to a talk led by a group of feminists about how the porn industry took advantage of women.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And There was a workshop about the “sex use” industry. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group referred to it as the sex use industry because they felt all women in the sex trade were being oppressed. Carol was familiar with this argument. She noticed the name of the workshop and spoke up.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I looked at that and I thought, wait, if we’re a feminist, we should be defining it. Not by what the men do, the men use, the services, but by what the women do, women do sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“Sex work” Nobody had ever referred to (it) as sex work then. But Carol made the case. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We always felt that it was work //You show up for your job, you have a schedule and you do it just like you would a manicure or something like that. It was just work. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew most people wouldn’t agree with her because they saw what she was doing as a moral issue not a labor one.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I understood that those who are opposed to prostitution. Were resisting, seeing it as work, So I felt like that was one difference that I wanted to highlight, so I coined the term “sex work”.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">sex work, yeah. I had not heard the term before, before I met Carol.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Joya Corey, an acting teacher in the Bay Area. Carol wasn’t just being a spokesperson for COYOTE at the time. She was also working with Joya and taking her acting classes. Carol loved making art and dabbled in all kinds – painting, guitar, writing. And she loved poetry most of all. A friend of hers said she spent almost every day of the week at coffee shops reading her poems for small audiences. But Carol had bigger ambitions. She wanted to make her poems into a play.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She told me about it and said would you like to direct it? It was about her career as a call girl. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Joya didn’t know anything about the life of a sex worker then but she was interested. So they got started on the play. It would be a one-woman show and Carol would play a character she created called “Scarlot Harlot”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I thought it fitted her better. That name fitted her better than Carol. Carol’s like a vanilla name and Scarlet was not vanilla. She was anything but vanilla.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol dyed her hair deep red for Scarlot. And wore red lipstick to match. Her curly hair gave her an extra inch or two of height. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She had that luscious kind of full body. She was tall, she was a fairly big woman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She spelled Scarlot as Scar-LOT as in lots of scars. She was like an alter ego. A high femme, uninhibited version of Carol. Shameless. Bold. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she was really flamboyant. She wore big hair, big costumes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And so sassy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I would really like to marry a rich producer. I think that’s really like the perfect kind of prostitution for me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had an idea for the play. She would name it, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlot Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and in it she would introduce audiences to the term “sex work” and what it meant to her.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I wrote a piece where Scarlot comes out and the first thing she’s kind of blind. She has a paper bag on her head. This paper bag…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> This paper bag symbolizes the anonymity prostitutes are forced to adopt.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> And then she takes the paper bag off. And her first words are “sex workers unite!”\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sex workers unite! We won’t remain anonymous!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was the beginning of her being a political artist.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But it wasn’t just political. Carol had fun with the play. She wrote a scene where Scarlot is confronted with the definition of prostitution. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Prostitution: One. 1. Trading sexual services for money or goods. 2. The act of selling one’s talents for an unworthy cause. \u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Well, that definition tarnishes my reputation!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She would ask the audience directly. Have you ever done anything for money that goes against your core values? Raise your hand if you have. And half the audience would raise their hand and she’d say, ah, that’s prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I have more money than I’ve ever had before!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People were entertained. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: …\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Color tv!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And if they were paying attention, would shift their thinking about sex work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s really hard to do political art and make it interesting. And she did that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Push button fireplace!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The play toured different small theaters across the bay area for about four years. Audiences were curious to see what the life of a sex worker was like. And Scarlot did not hold back.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We all know that we don’t want to confine ourselves to being sexual objects, but our sexuality is a resource for us. I think it’s very important that we start making the money from our own sexuality and put it into our own causes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Joya Corey:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really her political proclivities were beginning to come forth, you know, to be an activist. And, in the doing of this show, \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Adventures of Scarlet Harlot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">, she started to realize that she wanted to be an activist for decriminalizing prostitution.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol had aspirations of taking Scarlot off-Broadway in New York. But then, Carol writes in her book that Margo and COYOTE had warned her about a mysterious sexually transmitted disease. COYOTE started urging everyone to use condoms. Carol’s focus was turning. She writes, “The whore stigma was no longer my most pressing issue.” By 1984, the disease was more than just a rumor. The AIDS crisis was in full swing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the beginning, there was a lot of confusion about how the virus spread. Lawmakers across the country went into a panic and started drafting laws to criminalize people who might spread the infection in hopes of stopping it. They put sex workers in that group. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a very scary time for sex workers. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">At this point, Carol is stuck at a crossroads. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was always very worried about not being able to fulfill the needs I would have as an artist to develop my work and also be an activist. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She knew sex workers could be a valuable voice in educating the public on how to reduce the spread of the virus. So she put her play on hold and joined Citizens for Medical Justice, an early AIDS Awareness group.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The solution is like IV drug hygiene, it’s recovery programs, it’s needles. The solution to the crisis is education, it’s not punishing people because they have a disease.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I became very involved and this is really where I learned how to be an activist and organizer.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A bill criminalizing sex workers for spreading the virus was making its way through the California legislature. It was referred to as a “mandatory testing law”. It required sex workers who were arrested to be tested for AIDS. Testing positive came with criminal charges.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Group chanting [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">“You say hey, we say no, mandatory testing has got to go!…”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Newscast: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill to force prostitutes to be tested for AIDS is now in the state senate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This means that a prostitute is convicted and she is antibody positive. If she even does a hand job, she can actually be convicted of a felony.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bill had already passed the state house in a 65-8 vote and was in committee. On the day of the final vote, Carol and members of COYOTE drove to Sacramento to lobby members of the state assembly to vote against the law. Despite their efforts, the bill passed. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is inhumane, we’re absolutely shocked, we’re against all mandatory testing.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol Leigh was very interested in women’s body autonomy. Whether that was abortion, or the right to a clean needle, or the right to do sex work that she felt a woman should have agency. Who she wants to have sex with. who she wants to go out with, and she should be safe.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It wouldn’t be until almost 30 years later that Carol’s activism would pay off. In 2017, the legislature repealed the law and annulled all previous convictions for sex workers affected by it. The crisis and the laws had galvanized Carol. It showed her that to win their rights, sex workers needed a voice on the larger stage. She found a way to use Scarlot to reach a wider audience. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh [archival tape]: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I knew that I needed to be Scarlot Harlot and go around the world and tell everyone what it’s like to be a prostitute in case they wanted to know, because people usually do want to know. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Scarlot did talk show appearances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Well, pretty much I fake it. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Announcer: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Corporate Call Girls on the next Geraldo… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing]\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Safe sex!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And she wrote music..Carol would start several organizations like the Bay Area Sex Worker Advocacy Network and the Sex Worker Film and Arts Festival here in San Francisco. Scarlot elevated the movement. And became a role model for a new generation of sex workers across the globe.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh as Scarlot Harlot: \u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[singing] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The bedroom is the last frontier. Condoms leave a souvenir. Safe sex! \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In 1999, Carol, Margo, and members of COYOTE started the St. James Infirmary clinic in the Tenderloin. A free clinic offering confidential medical and legal services to sex workers in the Bay Area. The clinic was the first of its kind in the country. When I talked to Carol in January 2021 she wasn’t doing as many high profile gigs. But she did tell me something else she had learned from Margo, what “her north star” was for the movement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The prostitutes rights agenda should be determined by what impacts the most vulnerable people in our communities, those who are impacted by the laws. \u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those communities today include Black and Trans sex workers, as well as undocumented workers. And they’re the groups that Carol says she spent her time with in Zoom meetings, connecting with them, listening to their unique challenges and how they navigate sex work. She did this while she was battling cancer\u003c/span>\u003cb>. \u003c/b>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was diagnosed five years ago, stage four cancer. That seems really serious. You know I get scared of dying soon.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she remained active in her own way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carol Leigh: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As I get this old 70 that’s pretty old. So. I love zoom and I mean, I’m in so many sex worker groups now, and I tried to find a new role for myself, uh, or the right role, the best role now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Carol passed away two years after our conversation.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I was pretty devastated when she died. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie and her closest friends surrounded her in her final moments.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> and I got to go over there. And be with her body, and put some flowers on her and be there when they rolled her out in a red velvet, a red velvet body bag. And she did a really good job planning for her death, amazingly well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Scarlot had one more trick up her sleeve. Before she died, Carol established a trust that she didn’t tell anybody about. It included an inheritance from her mother, who supported Carol’s sex worker career from the beginning. The beneficiaries included eighty-six different sex workers and sex worker organizations in need. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> She, in her death, became a philanthropist. And she was almost embarrassed that she had money at the end\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In a letter to her beneficiaries, Carol wrote “My mother, Augusta, wanted me to use her savings to support my life and work.” Carol also left behind her poems, excerpts from her play as Scarlot, and many news articles that quoted her.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the goddess of compassion, and she always wears the latest in fashion.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Annie reads me a poem she wrote for Carol. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Scarlot Harlot is the gal we love the best, the finest whore in all of the West. She’s made the world a more wonderful place. All this and more. Plus she’ll sit on your face. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steven Rascón: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s so fun. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Annie Sprinkle: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">She was a whore mentor and a whore mother to many sex workers. She was truly the whore with a heart of gold.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That story was reported and produced by Steven Rascón.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Decades after Carol introduced the term “sex worker” in her play, Margo St. James and others in COYOTE started using it regularly to describe the movement with lawmakers, the press, and public health officials.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The term found its way into studies from the World Health Organization and the National Institutes of Health. Today, the phrase that Carol coined has revolutionized the way the world talks about the profession.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Currently in California, soliciting sex in exchange for money may be punishable with fines and jail time.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Activists continue their efforts to decriminalize all forms of sex work.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today’s episode was produced by Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Special thanks to Jen Chien, Nastia Voynovskaya, Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, And the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11998339/transcript-scarlot-harlot-made-sex-worker-rights-her-lifes-work","authors":["8637"],"programs":["news_33523"],"categories":["news_21291"],"tags":["news_18426"],"featImg":"news_11998352","label":"news_33523"},"news_11994024":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11994024","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11994024","score":null,"sort":[1721296833000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"heading-to-morcom-rose-garden-better-leave-your-glitter-at-home","title":"Heading to Morcom Rose Garden? Better Leave Your Glitter at Home","publishDate":1721296833,"format":"standard","headTitle":"Heading to Morcom Rose Garden? Better Leave Your Glitter at Home | KQED","labelTerm":{"term":33523,"site":"news"},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the nice things about living in the San Francisco Bay Area is that our cities are not, for the most part, endless concrete jungles. We are surrounded by wild open spaces and mountain ranges for exploring, city parks for gathering and a fair number of beautiful rose gardens dotted around the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Take, for example, the \u003ca href=\"https://friendsofoaklandrose.org/\">Morcom Rose Garden\u003c/a> at 700 Jean St. in Oakland. Home to more than 2,300 different rose bushes representing an array of species, both common and rare, this garden sits tucked away between Lake Merritt and the Piedmont neighborhood. But what do people use rose gardens for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a place for joy. Many people live in apartments, and this is a place where they can get with nature nearby,” Royal Kreiger said. He is a volunteer consulting rosarian—that is, someone who cultivates roses—at Morcom since the 80s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996145\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11996145\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Older man wearing jeans, a pale blue button down shirt and gardening gloves sits on a bench in front of a large rose bush. \" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed.jpg 1999w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rosarian Royal Kreiger sits in the Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland on July 16, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For generations, this place of joy has been the backdrop for celebrations big and small, “We get weddings obviously, quinceañeras,” Kreiger said, “and we have a lot of kids that before their proms they meet here, and the parents will come, and they shoot a lot of pictures.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These photoshoots became problematic when a seemingly benign substance commonly used in celebrations came into play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Glitter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For some reason, when folks come here to celebrate, it seems appropriate to them to bring glitter,” Kreiger said, “and then when they’re shooting the pictures, they throw it in the air.” This is a cool and somewhat trendy effect visually, but it turns out it’s not good for roses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996127\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11996127\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Close up image of a large rose bush with numerous pink blooms. A man wearing gardening gloves gently touches the flowers.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rosarian Royal Kreiger looks at a rose bush in the Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland on July 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Then the wind blows it around, and it spreads all over,” Kreiger said, “it’s impossible to pick up. Now, we got glitter all over in the beds. We’re concerned about birds being attracted to it.” Krieger said they’d turn the soil sometime, and there would be glitter throughout, “and that’s not good.” Not good because glitter is, despite being pretty and fabulous and sparkly, in fact, pretty bad for the environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the University of Washington, “Glitter is made of the common plastics PET or PVC and coated with aluminum or other synthetic materials to make it reflective. The chemical substances used during the production of glitter have been found to adversely affect human health—including causing damage to our immune and reproductive systems and potentially leading to developmental delays and cancers—and environmental health, contaminating our soil, air, water and food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Glitter is \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/analysis-how-decorative-glitter-contributes-to-microplastic-pollution\">bad stuff\u003c/a>. Sorry about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the team at Morcom Rose Garden, a small but mighty group of enthusiastic volunteers, took it upon themselves to try to do something about the glitter infestation at Morcom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They put up signs in the garden that say:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">\u003cstrong>NO Glitter\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Allowed In the Rose Garden!!!\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>PROHIBIDO tirar PURPURINA en el jardín de los rosales\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sign with an official City of Oakland logo continues, “Glitter is a non-biodegradable material, is impossible to remove completely from the soil and very, very difficult to sweep up from the walkways. Help Keep The Garden Healthy & Beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996129\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11996129\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"A large rose garden with a winding cement pathway. The day is sunny and clear. \" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland on July 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s been reasonably effective,” Kreiger said, “we still have some problems, but nothing like we used to have.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During my June visit to Morcom, there wasn’t an ounce of glitter in sight, which is a good sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’d like to celebrate, glitter-free of course, Royal Kreiger might just greet you himself at the Morcom Rose Garden. For more information, check out the \u003ca href=\"https://www.visitoakland.com/listing/morcom-rose-garden/220/\">City of Oakland’s website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Bay Curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have you been to one of the beautiful rose gardens dotted around the Bay Area? Whether in San Francisco, Berkeley or San Jose, rose gardens are little escape from the hustle of life in a city. One example, in Oakland, is wedged between picturesque Lake Merritt and the Piedmont neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It really is just this gem, feels like a little European oasis here in Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious listener Julia Fogelson discovered Morcom Rose Garden only recently…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Despite living, I don’t know, three blocks away for the last five years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From the outside, it’s easy to miss the garden altogether, but once inside, you are met with acres of open space and countless varieties of roses, blushing in pink, blue, purple and orange. Now, Julia likes to walk through the park on her way to work, and one day, she noticed \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">an abundance\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of something sort of curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I saw all of these signs that said no glitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pretty specific, huh? We thought so, too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would love to know what happened at the rose garden to warrant so many signs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julia’s question was selected by you, our listeners, in a recent public voting round on our website, BayCurious.org. So today on the show, we’re going in search of the story behind all those “No Glitter” signs at Morcom Rose Garden. Turns out that not\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> that glitters is gold. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Back after this quick break…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every hundred feet or so along the walking paths at Oakland’s Morcom Rose Garden, there are signs that say “NO GLITTER” in big letters. Bay Curious listener Julia Fogelson wanted to know why. We sent KQED’s Christopher Beale to Oakland to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of birds chirping]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the Grand Lake area of Oakland, just a little to the northeast of Lake Merritt, if you know where to look, you’ll find Oakland’s Morcom Rose Garden. The address is 700 Jean St. Now, you also know where to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Out in front, you’re greeted first by a big sign welcoming you to the rose garden; there is a map there, too, to help you navigate the 7 1/2-acre site. In my case, I was greeted right away by the garden’s consulting rosarian, Royal Krieger. He’s who I’m here to meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi Royal? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Christopher? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nice to meet you!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You might be asking yourself, rosarian? What the heck is that? Well, Royal says basically that’s a rose authority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How long have you been a rose authority?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I gave my first rose-pulling demonstration here in 1985.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Royal is a volunteer, but he has a personal attachment to the rose garden and loves to give tours.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The land was purchased in 1912 by the city. It officially became a park in 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In 1933, Mayor Fred Morcom planted the first rose here in the garden, and more and more have been added over the decades. There are currently about 6000 different rose plants in the garden, representing some common and some rare varieties of roses. Some of them are even delicious to local wildlife. The garden attracts deer, and they eat the roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. They certainly do. They’d love all the new growth in the roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What types of things do people use the Rose Garden for on a daily basis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a place for joy. Uh, we have a lot of kids that, before their proms, they meet here, and the parents will come and family, and they shoot a lot of pictures. Weddings, obviously, uh, quinceañeras and for many people also, uh, they live in apartments and uh, so it’s a place where they can get, get with nature, uh, nearby.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We got a question from a Bay Curious listener who’s a big fan of the garden, walks around all the time, finds a lot of peace here, and noticed that you have signs up throughout the garden that ban a very specific item. Do you know what I’m talking about? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I sure do. The glitter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Okay, obviously, this brings up the question. It’s a very specific thing. Why do you have signs all over the garden that say “no glitter”? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, for whatever reason, uh, when people come to celebrate a birthday or graduation or whatever, it seems appropriate to them to bring, uh, glitter or, uh, confetti of some sort, and then they’re shooting the pictures, they throw it in the air, and then the wind blows it around.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The glitter, which is the worst, is very small, and now they can get it in the form of a, like a bomb, and they fire this thing well up into the air, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[pop sound effect]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and it spreads all over. It’s impossible to pick up. Now we got glitter all over in the beds. We’re concerned about birds and whatever being attracted to it. Plus, it gets into the water areas, and there’s some plugging issues, etc. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is something about the glitter specifically bad for the roses, too? Like, does it actually harm the flowers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, you’re introducing, uh, you know, little teeny particles of metal or, uh, you know, some, uh, whatever the glitter is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Microplastics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, micro, yeah, microplastics, you know, I mean, and, uh, that stuff just doesn’t, uh, you know, decompose and rot away. I mean, uh, so that’s, that’s the problem. Once it’s in there, I’ll turn the soil, and I’ll see glitter in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, and that was, that’s not good. And it’s not necessary. We finally had to put the signs up, and it’s been reasonably effective. We still have some problems but nothing like we used to have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t want to encourage this, but if you check Pinterest, you’ll see that this “glitter in a rose garden” photoshoot idea was and is a whole thing. Please do not do this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How many times would you say you personally have had to clean up glitter in the garden here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs] I, I, you know, I, I didn’t go to Sesame Street, so I can only count so high, but it’s higher than that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laugh]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Julia, our question asker, met me at Morcom Rose Garden on a breezy afternoon. And I told her the whole thing about the history and the variety of roses and the weddings and the joy and the glitter. And I asked her what she thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would hope knowing that other people would refrain from using glitter since it does not, it’s not biodegradable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And you can just use AI or Photoshop at this point, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are no more excuses to throw glitter around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, we don’t need analog glitter anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Royal Krieger wants you to please come enjoy the sights and sounds and smells of Morcom Rose Garden, but just don’t celebrate in a destructive way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s another fun way you might suggest that I celebrate joy here in the park that doesn’t harm the roses? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, you can breakdance on the, uh, walkways, I suppose.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, can you do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No! [laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Christopher Beale. Every month, we have a new public voting round-up at BayCurious.org, and today’s question was selected by you. Head online now to cast your vote for the latest round of questions. Here are your options:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I recently saw Komandorski Village on a map near Dublin. What is, or was Komandorski Village?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who made the wave organ, and when is the best time to hear it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How much do the billboards next to I-80 through San Francisco earn? And if it’s a significant amount, why doesn’t every skyscraper in San Francisco have a billboard?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, vote at BayCurious.org. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Big thanks to Julia Fogelson for asking today’s question.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’d like to support Bay Curious by becoming a member of KQED, head to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was produced by \u003c/span>Olivia Allen-Price\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral and Christopher Beale. With support from: Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and hey, have a great week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Roses are red. Glitter is plastic. Leave the sparkles at home, and you'll be fantastic. ","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1721861077,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":84,"wordCount":2344},"headData":{"title":"Heading to Morcom Rose Garden? Better Leave Your Glitter at Home | KQED","description":"Roses are red. Glitter is plastic. Leave the sparkles at home, and you'll be fantastic.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","socialDescription":"Roses are red. Glitter is plastic. Leave the sparkles at home, and you'll be fantastic.","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"Heading to Morcom Rose Garden? Better Leave Your Glitter at Home","datePublished":"2024-07-18T03:00:33-07:00","dateModified":"2024-07-24T15:44:37-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC7359918514.mp3?updated=1721237774","sticky":false,"nprStoryId":"kqed-11994024","excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11994024/heading-to-morcom-rose-garden-better-leave-your-glitter-at-home","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">Read a transcript of this episode.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the nice things about living in the San Francisco Bay Area is that our cities are not, for the most part, endless concrete jungles. We are surrounded by wild open spaces and mountain ranges for exploring, city parks for gathering and a fair number of beautiful rose gardens dotted around the region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Take, for example, the \u003ca href=\"https://friendsofoaklandrose.org/\">Morcom Rose Garden\u003c/a> at 700 Jean St. in Oakland. Home to more than 2,300 different rose bushes representing an array of species, both common and rare, this garden sits tucked away between Lake Merritt and the Piedmont neighborhood. But what do people use rose gardens for?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s a place for joy. Many people live in apartments, and this is a place where they can get with nature nearby,” Royal Kreiger said. He is a volunteer consulting rosarian—that is, someone who cultivates roses—at Morcom since the 80s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996145\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11996145\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Older man wearing jeans, a pale blue button down shirt and gardening gloves sits on a bench in front of a large rose bush. \" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-Glitter-14-BL_qed.jpg 1999w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rosarian Royal Kreiger sits in the Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland on July 16, 2024.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For generations, this place of joy has been the backdrop for celebrations big and small, “We get weddings obviously, quinceañeras,” Kreiger said, “and we have a lot of kids that before their proms they meet here, and the parents will come, and they shoot a lot of pictures.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These photoshoots became problematic when a seemingly benign substance commonly used in celebrations came into play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Glitter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For some reason, when folks come here to celebrate, it seems appropriate to them to bring glitter,” Kreiger said, “and then when they’re shooting the pictures, they throw it in the air.” This is a cool and somewhat trendy effect visually, but it turns out it’s not good for roses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996127\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11996127\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"Close up image of a large rose bush with numerous pink blooms. A man wearing gardening gloves gently touches the flowers.\" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Rosarian Royal Kreiger looks at a rose bush in the Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland on July 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Then the wind blows it around, and it spreads all over,” Kreiger said, “it’s impossible to pick up. Now, we got glitter all over in the beds. We’re concerned about birds being attracted to it.” Krieger said they’d turn the soil sometime, and there would be glitter throughout, “and that’s not good.” Not good because glitter is, despite being pretty and fabulous and sparkly, in fact, pretty bad for the environment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>According to the University of Washington, “Glitter is made of the common plastics PET or PVC and coated with aluminum or other synthetic materials to make it reflective. The chemical substances used during the production of glitter have been found to adversely affect human health—including causing damage to our immune and reproductive systems and potentially leading to developmental delays and cancers—and environmental health, contaminating our soil, air, water and food.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Glitter is \u003ca href=\"https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/analysis-how-decorative-glitter-contributes-to-microplastic-pollution\">bad stuff\u003c/a>. Sorry about it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So the team at Morcom Rose Garden, a small but mighty group of enthusiastic volunteers, took it upon themselves to try to do something about the glitter infestation at Morcom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They put up signs in the garden that say:\u003c/p>\n\u003cp style=\"text-align: center\">\u003cstrong>NO Glitter\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>Allowed In the Rose Garden!!!\u003c/strong>\u003cbr>\n\u003cstrong>PROHIBIDO tirar PURPURINA en el jardín de los rosales\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The sign with an official City of Oakland logo continues, “Glitter is a non-biodegradable material, is impossible to remove completely from the soil and very, very difficult to sweep up from the walkways. Help Keep The Garden Healthy & Beautiful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11996129\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-11996129\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg\" alt=\"A large rose garden with a winding cement pathway. The day is sunny and clear. \" width=\"800\" height=\"533\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/240716-GLITTER-33-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Morcom Rose Garden in Oakland on July 16, 2024. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“It’s been reasonably effective,” Kreiger said, “we still have some problems, but nothing like we used to have.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During my June visit to Morcom, there wasn’t an ounce of glitter in sight, which is a good sign.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’d like to celebrate, glitter-free of course, Royal Kreiger might just greet you himself at the Morcom Rose Garden. For more information, check out the \u003ca href=\"https://www.visitoakland.com/listing/morcom-rose-garden/220/\">City of Oakland’s website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Bay Curious, the show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Have you been to one of the beautiful rose gardens dotted around the Bay Area? Whether in San Francisco, Berkeley or San Jose, rose gardens are little escape from the hustle of life in a city. One example, in Oakland, is wedged between picturesque Lake Merritt and the Piedmont neighborhood.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It really is just this gem, feels like a little European oasis here in Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious listener Julia Fogelson discovered Morcom Rose Garden only recently…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Despite living, I don’t know, three blocks away for the last five years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">From the outside, it’s easy to miss the garden altogether, but once inside, you are met with acres of open space and countless varieties of roses, blushing in pink, blue, purple and orange. Now, Julia likes to walk through the park on her way to work, and one day, she noticed \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">an abundance\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of something sort of curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I saw all of these signs that said no glitter.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Pretty specific, huh? We thought so, too.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would love to know what happened at the rose garden to warrant so many signs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Julia’s question was selected by you, our listeners, in a recent public voting round on our website, BayCurious.org. So today on the show, we’re going in search of the story behind all those “No Glitter” signs at Morcom Rose Garden. Turns out that not\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> all\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> that glitters is gold. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Back after this quick break…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[SPONSORSHIP MESSAGE]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Every hundred feet or so along the walking paths at Oakland’s Morcom Rose Garden, there are signs that say “NO GLITTER” in big letters. Bay Curious listener Julia Fogelson wanted to know why. We sent KQED’s Christopher Beale to Oakland to find out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of birds chirping]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the Grand Lake area of Oakland, just a little to the northeast of Lake Merritt, if you know where to look, you’ll find Oakland’s Morcom Rose Garden. The address is 700 Jean St. Now, you also know where to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Out in front, you’re greeted first by a big sign welcoming you to the rose garden; there is a map there, too, to help you navigate the 7 1/2-acre site. In my case, I was greeted right away by the garden’s consulting rosarian, Royal Krieger. He’s who I’m here to meet.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi Royal? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Christopher? Yeah.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nice to meet you!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You might be asking yourself, rosarian? What the heck is that? Well, Royal says basically that’s a rose authority.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How long have you been a rose authority?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I gave my first rose-pulling demonstration here in 1985.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Royal is a volunteer, but he has a personal attachment to the rose garden and loves to give tours.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The land was purchased in 1912 by the city. It officially became a park in 1915.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In 1933, Mayor Fred Morcom planted the first rose here in the garden, and more and more have been added over the decades. There are currently about 6000 different rose plants in the garden, representing some common and some rare varieties of roses. Some of them are even delicious to local wildlife. The garden attracts deer, and they eat the roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh yeah. They certainly do. They’d love all the new growth in the roses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What types of things do people use the Rose Garden for on a daily basis? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s a place for joy. Uh, we have a lot of kids that, before their proms, they meet here, and the parents will come and family, and they shoot a lot of pictures. Weddings, obviously, uh, quinceañeras and for many people also, uh, they live in apartments and uh, so it’s a place where they can get, get with nature, uh, nearby.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We got a question from a Bay Curious listener who’s a big fan of the garden, walks around all the time, finds a lot of peace here, and noticed that you have signs up throughout the garden that ban a very specific item. Do you know what I’m talking about? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, I sure do. The glitter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes. Okay, obviously, this brings up the question. It’s a very specific thing. Why do you have signs all over the garden that say “no glitter”? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, for whatever reason, uh, when people come to celebrate a birthday or graduation or whatever, it seems appropriate to them to bring, uh, glitter or, uh, confetti of some sort, and then they’re shooting the pictures, they throw it in the air, and then the wind blows it around.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The glitter, which is the worst, is very small, and now they can get it in the form of a, like a bomb, and they fire this thing well up into the air, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[pop sound effect]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> …and it spreads all over. It’s impossible to pick up. Now we got glitter all over in the beds. We’re concerned about birds and whatever being attracted to it. Plus, it gets into the water areas, and there’s some plugging issues, etc. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Is something about the glitter specifically bad for the roses, too? Like, does it actually harm the flowers? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, I mean, you’re introducing, uh, you know, little teeny particles of metal or, uh, you know, some, uh, whatever the glitter is.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Microplastics. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Yeah, micro, yeah, microplastics, you know, I mean, and, uh, that stuff just doesn’t, uh, you know, decompose and rot away. I mean, uh, so that’s, that’s the problem. Once it’s in there, I’ll turn the soil, and I’ll see glitter in there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Mmm.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, and that was, that’s not good. And it’s not necessary. We finally had to put the signs up, and it’s been reasonably effective. We still have some problems but nothing like we used to have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I don’t want to encourage this, but if you check Pinterest, you’ll see that this “glitter in a rose garden” photoshoot idea was and is a whole thing. Please do not do this.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How many times would you say you personally have had to clean up glitter in the garden here? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [laughs] I, I, you know, I, I didn’t go to Sesame Street, so I can only count so high, but it’s higher than that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laugh]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Julia, our question asker, met me at Morcom Rose Garden on a breezy afternoon. And I told her the whole thing about the history and the variety of roses and the weddings and the joy and the glitter. And I asked her what she thought.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I would hope knowing that other people would refrain from using glitter since it does not, it’s not biodegradable.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And you can just use AI or Photoshop at this point, right? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There are no more excuses to throw glitter around. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, we don’t need analog glitter anymore. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Royal Krieger wants you to please come enjoy the sights and sounds and smells of Morcom Rose Garden, but just don’t celebrate in a destructive way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s another fun way you might suggest that I celebrate joy here in the park that doesn’t harm the roses? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, you can breakdance on the, uh, walkways, I suppose.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Christopher Beale:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Wait, can you do that? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Royal Krieger:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> No! [laughter]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That was KQED’s Christopher Beale. Every month, we have a new public voting round-up at BayCurious.org, and today’s question was selected by you. Head online now to cast your vote for the latest round of questions. Here are your options:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I recently saw Komandorski Village on a map near Dublin. What is, or was Komandorski Village?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Who made the wave organ, and when is the best time to hear it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">How much do the billboards next to I-80 through San Francisco earn? And if it’s a significant amount, why doesn’t every skyscraper in San Francisco have a billboard?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Again, vote at BayCurious.org. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Big thanks to Julia Fogelson for asking today’s question.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Julia Fogelson:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you’d like to support Bay Curious by becoming a member of KQED, head to \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. Thanks!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This episode was edited by Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was produced by \u003c/span>Olivia Allen-Price\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, Amanda Font, Ana De Almeida Amaral and Christopher Beale. With support from: Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED family. I’m Olivia Allen-Price, and hey, have a great week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11994024/heading-to-morcom-rose-garden-better-leave-your-glitter-at-home","authors":["11749"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_8"],"tags":["news_27626","news_5620","news_34054"],"featImg":"news_11996128","label":"news_33523"},"news_11992428":{"type":"posts","id":"news_11992428","meta":{"index":"posts_1716263798","site":"news","id":"11992428","score":null,"sort":[1720692058000]},"guestAuthors":[],"slug":"after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","title":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?","publishDate":1720692058,"format":"standard","headTitle":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit? | KQED","labelTerm":{},"content":"\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attend a big parade in San Francisco, like the St. Patrick’s Day Parade or the Cherry Blossom Festival Parade, and you might see police officers on horses leading the procession. They look stately up at the front — although the poop scoopers who follow just behind are maybe a tad less elegant. They are carrying on a longstanding tradition of mounted officers in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriouspodcastinfo]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abby Van Soest first noticed the mounted cops at the head of the Warriors championship parade in 2022. It got her curious to know more about something that seems a little anachronistic, so she reached out to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m curious why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past,” Van Soest said. “Also, I just want to know about the horses. Like, are there different personalities?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A day at the station\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country, established in 1874. Pictures of its long history line the walls of the barn, which doubles as a police station, near the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. There’s also a plaque commemorating the many horses that have served over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981895\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981895\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people groom a horse inside a barn.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stable attendant Katie Corrigan (left) and Officer Eric Caracciolo (right) get Sonny (center) ready for patrol in the morning at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. The San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit supplements patrol all over the city, and has done so since 1874. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The current set of horses — Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus — live outside full time, unless an extreme weather event forces them inside the barn. The stalls are mostly used to store their saddles, bridles and other equipment. Police horses have to be smart and calm in order to handle the many strange sounds and conditions of patrolling in a big city like San Francisco. Geldings, castrated male horses, are often the best personality matches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The life of a police horse is pretty nice. On days when they are not out on patrol they get to rest in the corral, often sleeping in the sun, eating treats and going out on training walks with stable staff. They also might do some additional training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981897\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981897\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Horse bridles and bits hang from labeled hooks.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Equipment for each horse of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit is hung underneath their names at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We use a lot of these props,” said stable attendant Katie Corrigan, showing me a stall filled with a wide assortment of supplies. There are gym mats to simulate walking on unfamiliar terrain, reflective emergency blankets that make a crinkling sound, trash can lids and pool noodles. Corrigan uses these props to expose the horses to various startling situations, so if they come upon that noise or sensation while patrolling they aren’t surprised by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can, sounds that can be startling,” she said. “So we use that here at the barn [to] get the horse used to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the horses even find joy in the training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I start to blow bubbles, [Sonny] comes running to them,” Corrigan said. “He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Going out on patrol\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Most days, officers take the horses out on patrol, either walking right out the gate to patrol Golden Gate Park or Ocean Beach, or loading the horses into a trailer and taking them to a different part of the city. They often patrol North Beach, Union Square and the Tenderloin, but could be sent anywhere by the higher ups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three police officers on horseback ride down a city street near Union Square.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Officer Eric Caracciolo and Sonny, Officer Robert Byrne and Gus, and Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo and John of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit patrol around Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s a process to get the horses ready for patrol. The officers start by grooming the horses. If they’re dusty from being outside they might vacuum their fur or give them a good brushing down. They pick out their hooves so nothing bothers their feet and check to make sure their equipment is clean, presentable and undamaged. When the horses are ready to go, the officers mount up and head out.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does San Francisco have a mounted unit at all?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the mounted unit was established in 1874, horses were the fastest way to get around and gave officers a leg up over most citizens moving around on foot. Many of the police stations still in use today, like the Richmond, Ingleside, and Park police stations, used to have stables. Back when horses were the norm, officers used them to patrol, interact with citizens, control crowds and chase down suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993259\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A145259?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993259\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of police on horseback guarding a loaded truck.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mounted police guard a candy store during a 1940 strike. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As technologies have changed over time, the department has modernized too. Now, police move around in squad cars or on motorcycles and the mounted unit is primarily a community engagement tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse,” said Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo of the mounted unit. “And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SanGiacomo used to be stationed at the Tenderloin station as a beat cop. Now, she regularly patrols that same neighborhood on horseback, but her interactions with people are far different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman in sunglasses pets police horses on the street in San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joan Hughes, visiting from England, pets San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit horse Gus at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat,” SanGiacomo said. “It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most often people want to know the horse’s name and ask if they can pet him. But once the ice is broken, SanGiacomo said there’s a natural opening to ask how folks are doing, see if they need help with anything and direct them to more services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of people that don’t like the police, who would not normally talk to the cops,” SanGiacomo said. “But they love animals. And so it is probably more useful than most people would gather it to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A police officer in uniform leads a horse out of a trailer in downtown San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Officer Robert Byrne of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit leads Gus out of the trailer at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If mounted officers see illegal behavior while on patrol, they write tickets and make arrests too. Often that involves calling for backup from squad cars because they try not to dismount for the horses’ safety. But SanGiacomo said she can often get to a location more quickly than a car can. She’s also got great visibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see over everything,” she said. “You have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mounted unit used to be used for crowd control — horses are big and can be intimidating so people usually get out of their way. But SanGiacomo said the last time she remembers the horses being deployed that way was during the Iraq War protests of 2003. The protests were largely peaceful, but when police tried to clear the streets so the city could return to normal operations, protesters didn’t listen. SanGiacomo was a beat cop at the time, there on foot with about 40–50 other officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And [the mounted unit] was successfully able to clear Market Street,” she said. “Emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a few times when horses injured civilians in crowded situations, however, so SanGiacomo said the mounted unit is no longer used for crowd control.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why has the mounted unit lasted so long?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco isn’t the only Bay Area police department with a mounted unit — San José still has one and the National Parks Department has one that patrols the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. But San Francisco’s mounted unit is special — it’s protected by the city charter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993263\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A155601?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ee31b4445092a13ed86e&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=7\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993263\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png\" alt=\"Black and white posed photo of mounted unit in front of the stables in Golden Gate Park.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Group of San Francisco Police Department mounted policemen by the SFPD stables in Golden Gate Park circa 1950. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1988, the city faced budget shortfalls. Then mayor, Art Agnos, was looking for ways to reduce city spending and suggested trimming the mounted unit’s budget. Police supporters got a proposition on the city ballot that proposed enshrining the mounted unit in the city charter. The proposition passed with more than 85% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993265\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A198367?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=16\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993265\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png\" alt=\"Mounted officer in profile looks out over San Francisco from a hill.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A mounted police officer overlooking a city park and view of downtown beyond. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today the unit is small and no new officers have been assigned in a while — although the department says there are officer shortages everywhere. The list of police officers who would like to join the unit is long. It took SanGiacomo 24 years to get into the mounted unit and she says it’s the hardest job she’s ever had. But she loves it. She encourages residents to come by, pet the horses and interact with a small piece of San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve got a 3 year old and he’s super into emergency vehicles right now… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and he’s often mimicking fire trucks, ambulances and police cars… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was delighted to share with him that this week Bay Curious was digging in on another — less abrasive sounding — way that police get around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On horseback!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker first noticed San Francisco police on horseback at the 2022 Golden State Warriors parade….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Reel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what a celebration it was, thousands of warriors fans…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were sort of leading a, like, part of the procession. My name is Abby Van Soest, and I live in the Excelsior District of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once Abby noticed them, she started seeing the mounted police at events all over the city. It got her thinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past. Also, I just want to know about the horses. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[chuckles]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ]Like, are there, like, different personalities? Do they bring out different horses for different events? What does the care of taking care of them go into? Yeah. All of that stuff.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco has the second oldest mounted police unit in the country…after New York City. They’ve been around more than a hundred and fifty years. Today on the show, we’ll meet the horses and their riders…learn how their role on the force has changed over time…and get a sense of what their day to day lives look like. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child neighs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsorship Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever seen police on horses walking through Golden Gate Park or down city streets…and wondered…what’s up with that? We sent Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz to learn more about the history and purpose of some of the police force’s most majestic members…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The San Francisco Police Stables are tucked away next to the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. Unlike a lot of other stations, it’s quiet here with just the sounds of birds chirping, a few lawnmowers, and the horses of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: O\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">h, Rusty Roo!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah who’s this we see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rusty. He’s our resident artist and you think I’m joking, but I’m not. He’s learned how to paint. He’s a sweet, sweet, sweet horse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His art is abstract and he favors the color red. There are currently six horses living here: Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus. Bubba is the smiler. And John is Mr. Reliable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Do you like that microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse mouth noise]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes you do\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, he can’t be too sure. It may be a cover for a carrot. You know, who knows?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Theresa San Giacomo. I’m a sergeant in the police department assigned to the mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because the mounted unit is stationed in Golden Gate Park the public is free to wander by and pet the horses if they’re near the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the police stables, which is also our station. It’s a police station in a barn. Two and one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The barn is a massive concrete affair built in the 1930s. Theresa is giving me the grand tour…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have pictures in the barn dating back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It clearly used to house more horses than it does now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each horse has their own equipment. Their saddles are specific for them, for their body shape, their size. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s evident Theresa and all the police officers and stable staff are very fond of their four-legged co-workers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have stars. And so it has their name on it instead of a number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Theresa has wanted this job for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it sounds like a B.S. story, but it’s honest to God, true. I was a young girl. We were at Christmas time. We’re at pier 39. We were all dressed up. And I saw two cops on horse posing for pictures. And my mom remembers it and I remember it, I looked at my mom and I said, I want to do that when I grow up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She joined the San Francisco Police Department in 1995 and immediately put her name on a list of officers interested in serving in the mounted unit. But it’s a long list. Theresa only made it into the unit in 2019…24 years later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat. It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The mounted unit has shrunk over the years. Currently there are only 3 officers and six working horses. So, more horses than riders. And that’s where Katie Corrigan comes in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We like to keep their minds busy as well as their bodies busy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Katie is a stable attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We use a lot of these props.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She shows me a horse stall filled with items she uses to train the horses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have trash can lids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[metal clangs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">you’re walking down the street, you’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can lid. All sounds that can be startling. So we use that here at the barn, get the horse used to it so when it’s out there, it’s like, oh I’m familiar with that sound, no big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city is full of things that startle horses…muni bus air brakes, kids shrieking in bounce houses, bubbles… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sonny is one of our horses. When I start to blow bubbles, he comes running to them. He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the horses get plenty of time to rest and nap in the sun too. But it isn’t all fun and games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They may seem out of date, but mounted officers are still cops. And when the first mounted officer was sworn in June 1, 1874, horses were the best available technology…the fastest way to get around. And they would have put officers at an advantage over most of the public who would be on foot. Theresa says back then \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">many\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the police stations were mounted units.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little known fact: Richmond Police Station used to be a horse police station. Ingleside police station were stables, so they were all over the city.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But as cars became more common, the police took up the new technologies. The mounted unit shifted to focus more on patrolling Golden Gate Park and the beach and doing community engagement. They’ve also been used to help with crowd control – like during the Iraq war protests in 2003. Theresa was a Tenderloin beat cop at the time, and not working with the horses yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was maybe 40 to 50 officers, including myself, on Market Street with a crowd of about 200,000 coming down Market Street towards us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says the protest was peaceful, but police needed to clear the street of people so buses and cars could pass. Protesters weren’t listening to her and the cops on foot. But then the cops on horses and motorcycles arrived.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can become very confrontational very quickly. Escalates, emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horses have been used for crowd control because they’re big and intimidating. People tend to get out of the way when a horse advances towards them. But having a horse in a crowd can be risky too. There were a few times in the early 2000s where horses injured people — so Theresa says they’ve stopped using them in crowd control situations.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At this point, you might be wondering, why do we even have a mounted unit anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in the late 1980s, city leaders had the same thought and tried to save some money by cutting the mounted unit. That led police supporters to propose a ballot measure that enshrined the mounted unit in the city charter. It passed by a huge margin… more than 85-percent of the vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so now, we are protected by city charter. So the police department has to have a mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess San Franciscans like their traditions! The most common place to see them now is at the head of parades…or bringing some pomp and circumstance to grand events, like the memorial for Senator Dianne Feinstein. And they do a lot of community engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse. And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa says a lot of people have negative associations with the police. They’ve had bad experiences or associate sirens with danger. But the horses change the dynamic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It usually starts with, oh my gosh, horse. Can I pet your horse? Can I take a picture?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then it transitions to, you know, how’s things? How are you doing today? Any help you need? You know, giving them phone numbers for resources, resource centers, outreach centers. And not just young people, all people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mounted unit officers and horses go out patrolling almost every day. They either head out the front gates to patrol Golden Gate Park or load the horses into trailers and take them to other parts of the city. Theresa suspects they are sent to be a visible presence in areas experiencing more crime. They give tickets, respond to crimes and make arrests like other officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were down in Washington Square in North Beach a few months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa and another officer were on a routine patrol in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was something going on that shouldn’t have been going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A person was grabbing food off plates, harassing outdoor diners. To protect the horses, Theresa says mounted officers try not to dismount. She called for back up from a patrol car and followed the person on horseback.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can see over everything you have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once the squad car officers stopped the man, Theresa did the paperwork.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter where officers are assigned to patrol, the day starts at the stables. Officers spend some quality time with their horses, cleaning and grooming them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they’re extremely dusty or dirty, we vacuum them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then they brush their tails and manes. Scrape out the sand and rocks from their hooves.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And make sure their saddles are in good shape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Jangling sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today Sonny and Bubba are heading out on patrol with officers Eric and Theresa. They mount up and head out the front gate to patrol their home turf — Golden Gate Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [at a distance] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, See you later! Bye!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz. This is Katrina’s last story for Bay Curious for a while because she’s headed out on maternity leave! We wish you all the best in this exciting new chapter, Katrina\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also some warm welcomes! Ana De Almeida Amaral is joining Bay Curious as an intern and producer Amanda Font is returning to the show after welcoming baby Theo into the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, and Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Abby, our question asker this week. Thanks also to Alex Gonzales and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’ve been listening to Bay Curious. Ye-haw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n","blocks":[],"excerpt":"Started in 1874, the San Francisco Police Department’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country. Here’s what the horses and riders do now.","status":"publish","parent":0,"modified":1720649629,"stats":{"hasAudio":false,"hasVideo":false,"hasChartOrMap":false,"iframeSrcs":[],"hasGoogleForm":false,"hasGallery":false,"hasHearkenModule":true,"hasPolis":false,"paragraphCount":113,"wordCount":3939},"headData":{"title":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit? | KQED","description":"Started in 1874, the San Francisco Police Department’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country. Here’s what the horses and riders do now.","ogTitle":"","ogDescription":"","ogImgId":"","twTitle":"","twDescription":"","twImgId":"","schema":{"@context":"http://schema.org","@type":"NewsArticle","headline":"After 150 Years, Why Do San Francisco Police Still Have a Mounted Unit?","datePublished":"2024-07-11T03:00:58-07:00","dateModified":"2024-07-10T15:13:49-07:00","image":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png","isAccessibleForFree":"True","publisher":{"@type":"NewsMediaOrganization","@id":"https://www.kqed.org/#organization","name":"KQED","url":"https://www.kqed.org","logo":"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/KQED-OG-Image@1x.png"}}},"source":"Bay Curious","sourceUrl":"https://www.kqed.org/podcasts/baycurious/","audioUrl":"https://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/pdst.fm/e/chrt.fm/track/G6C7C3/traffic.megaphone.fm/KQINC9653617813.mp3?updated=1720635145","sticky":false,"excludeFromSiteSearch":"Include","articleAge":"0","path":"/news/11992428/after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","audioTrackLength":null,"parsedContent":[{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Attend a big parade in San Francisco, like the St. Patrick’s Day Parade or the Cherry Blossom Festival Parade, and you might see police officers on horses leading the procession. They look stately up at the front — although the poop scoopers who follow just behind are maybe a tad less elegant. They are carrying on a longstanding tradition of mounted officers in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003caside class=\"alignleft utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__bayCuriousPodcastShortcode__bayCurious\">\u003cimg src=https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/bayCuriousLogo.png alt=\"Bay Curious Podcast\" loading=\"lazy\" />\n \u003ca href=\"/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> is a podcast that answers your questions about the Bay Area.\n Subscribe on \u003ca href=\"https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/bay-curious/id1172473406\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Apple Podcasts\u003c/a>,\n \u003ca href=\"http://www.npr.org/podcasts/500557090/bay-curious\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">NPR One\u003c/a> or your favorite podcast platform.\u003c/aside>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Abby Van Soest first noticed the mounted cops at the head of the Warriors championship parade in 2022. It got her curious to know more about something that seems a little anachronistic, so she reached out to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m curious why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past,” Van Soest said. “Also, I just want to know about the horses. Like, are there different personalities?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A day at the station\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco’s Mounted Unit is the second oldest in the country, established in 1874. Pictures of its long history line the walls of the barn, which doubles as a police station, near the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. There’s also a plaque commemorating the many horses that have served over the years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981895\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981895\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Two people groom a horse inside a barn.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-013-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Stable attendant Katie Corrigan (left) and Officer Eric Caracciolo (right) get Sonny (center) ready for patrol in the morning at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. The San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit supplements patrol all over the city, and has done so since 1874. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The current set of horses — Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus — live outside full time, unless an extreme weather event forces them inside the barn. The stalls are mostly used to store their saddles, bridles and other equipment. Police horses have to be smart and calm in order to handle the many strange sounds and conditions of patrolling in a big city like San Francisco. Geldings, castrated male horses, are often the best personality matches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The life of a police horse is pretty nice. On days when they are not out on patrol they get to rest in the corral, often sleeping in the sun, eating treats and going out on training walks with stable staff. They also might do some additional training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981897\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981897\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Horse bridles and bits hang from labeled hooks.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-022-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Equipment for each horse of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit is hung underneath their names at the SFPD Stables in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We use a lot of these props,” said stable attendant Katie Corrigan, showing me a stall filled with a wide assortment of supplies. There are gym mats to simulate walking on unfamiliar terrain, reflective emergency blankets that make a crinkling sound, trash can lids and pool noodles. Corrigan uses these props to expose the horses to various startling situations, so if they come upon that noise or sensation while patrolling they aren’t surprised by it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can, sounds that can be startling,” she said. “So we use that here at the barn [to] get the horse used to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"fullwidth"},"numeric":["fullwidth"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sometimes the horses even find joy in the training.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“When I start to blow bubbles, [Sonny] comes running to them,” Corrigan said. “He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Going out on patrol\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Most days, officers take the horses out on patrol, either walking right out the gate to patrol Golden Gate Park or Ocean Beach, or loading the horses into a trailer and taking them to a different part of the city. They often patrol North Beach, Union Square and the Tenderloin, but could be sent anywhere by the higher ups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981902\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981902\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"Three police officers on horseback ride down a city street near Union Square.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-050-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">From left to right: Officer Eric Caracciolo and Sonny, Officer Robert Byrne and Gus, and Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo and John of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit patrol around Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>It’s a process to get the horses ready for patrol. The officers start by grooming the horses. If they’re dusty from being outside they might vacuum their fur or give them a good brushing down. They pick out their hooves so nothing bothers their feet and check to make sure their equipment is clean, presentable and undamaged. When the horses are ready to go, the officers mount up and head out.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why does San Francisco have a mounted unit at all?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When the mounted unit was established in 1874, horses were the fastest way to get around and gave officers a leg up over most citizens moving around on foot. Many of the police stations still in use today, like the Richmond, Ingleside, and Park police stations, used to have stables. Back when horses were the norm, officers used them to patrol, interact with citizens, control crowds and chase down suspects.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993259\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A145259?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=8\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993259\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png\" alt=\"Black and white photo of police on horseback guarding a loaded truck.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/guarding-candy-store-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mounted police guard a candy store during a 1940 strike. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As technologies have changed over time, the department has modernized too. Now, police move around in squad cars or on motorcycles and the mounted unit is primarily a community engagement tool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse,” said Sergeant Theresa SanGiacomo of the mounted unit. “And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>SanGiacomo used to be stationed at the Tenderloin station as a beat cop. Now, she regularly patrols that same neighborhood on horseback, but her interactions with people are far different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981904\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981904\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"An older woman in sunglasses pets police horses on the street in San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-052-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Joan Hughes, visiting from England, pets San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit horse Gus at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat,” SanGiacomo said. “It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Most often people want to know the horse’s name and ask if they can pet him. But once the ice is broken, SanGiacomo said there’s a natural opening to ask how folks are doing, see if they need help with anything and direct them to more services.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s a lot of people that don’t like the police, who would not normally talk to the cops,” SanGiacomo said. “But they love animals. And so it is probably more useful than most people would gather it to be.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11981900\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11981900\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A police officer in uniform leads a horse out of a trailer in downtown San Francisco.\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-800x533.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1020x680.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/04/240402-SFPDMOUNTED-JY-037-KQED-1920x1280.jpg 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Officer Robert Byrne of the San Francisco Police Department Mounted Patrol Unit leads Gus out of the trailer at Union Square in San Francisco on Tuesday, April 2, 2024. \u003ccite>(Juliana Yamada/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>If mounted officers see illegal behavior while on patrol, they write tickets and make arrests too. Often that involves calling for backup from squad cars because they try not to dismount for the horses’ safety. But SanGiacomo said she can often get to a location more quickly than a car can. She’s also got great visibility.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You can see over everything,” she said. “You have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mounted unit used to be used for crowd control — horses are big and can be intimidating so people usually get out of their way. But SanGiacomo said the last time she remembers the horses being deployed that way was during the Iraq War protests of 2003. The protests were largely peaceful, but when police tried to clear the streets so the city could return to normal operations, protesters didn’t listen. SanGiacomo was a beat cop at the time, there on foot with about 40–50 other officers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“And [the mounted unit] was successfully able to clear Market Street,” she said. “Emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There have been a few times when horses injured civilians in crowded situations, however, so SanGiacomo said the mounted unit is no longer used for crowd control.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Why has the mounted unit lasted so long?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>San Francisco isn’t the only Bay Area police department with a mounted unit — San José still has one and the National Parks Department has one that patrols the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. But San Francisco’s mounted unit is special — it’s protected by the city charter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993263\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A155601?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=ee31b4445092a13ed86e&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=7\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993263\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png\" alt=\"Black and white posed photo of mounted unit in front of the stables in Golden Gate Park.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/Mounted-unit-GGP-stables-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Group of San Francisco Police Department mounted policemen by the SFPD stables in Golden Gate Park circa 1950. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In 1988, the city faced budget shortfalls. Then mayor, Art Agnos, was looking for ways to reduce city spending and suggested trimming the mounted unit’s budget. Police supporters got a proposition on the city ballot that proposed enshrining the mounted unit in the city charter. The proposition passed with more than 85% of the vote.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11993265\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2261px\">\u003ca href=\"https://digitalsf.org/islandora/object/islandora%3A198367?solr_nav%5Bid%5D=df1e2f205eae6a3921c8&solr_nav%5Bpage%5D=0&solr_nav%5Boffset%5D=16\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11993265\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png\" alt=\"Mounted officer in profile looks out over San Francisco from a hill.\" width=\"2261\" height=\"977\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook.png 2261w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-800x346.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1020x441.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-160x69.png 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1536x664.png 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-2048x885.png 2048w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/07/horse-rider-city-overlook-1920x830.png 1920w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 2261px) 100vw, 2261px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A mounted police officer overlooking a city park and view of downtown beyond. \u003ccite>(San Francisco History Center/San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Today the unit is small and no new officers have been assigned in a while — although the department says there are officer shortages everywhere. The list of police officers who would like to join the unit is long. It took SanGiacomo 24 years to get into the mounted unit and she says it’s the hardest job she’s ever had. But she loves it. She encourages residents to come by, pet the horses and interact with a small piece of San Francisco history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"baycuriousquestion","attributes":{"named":{"label":""},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ve got a 3 year old and he’s super into emergency vehicles right now… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> and he’s often mimicking fire trucks, ambulances and police cars… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child mimics emergency vehicle siren]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So I was delighted to share with him that this week Bay Curious was digging in on another — less abrasive sounding — way that police get around.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> On horseback!\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our question asker first noticed San Francisco police on horseback at the 2022 Golden State Warriors parade….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>News Reel: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And what a celebration it was, thousands of warriors fans…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They were sort of leading a, like, part of the procession. My name is Abby Van Soest, and I live in the Excelsior District of San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Once Abby noticed them, she started seeing the mounted police at events all over the city. It got her thinking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m curious about why they still exist and what they’ve done in the past. Also, I just want to know about the horses. \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[chuckles]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> ]Like, are there, like, different personalities? Do they bring out different horses for different events? What does the care of taking care of them go into? Yeah. All of that stuff.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> San Francisco has the second oldest mounted police unit in the country…after New York City. They’ve been around more than a hundred and fifty years. Today on the show, we’ll meet the horses and their riders…learn how their role on the force has changed over time…and get a sense of what their day to day lives look like. I’m Olivia Allen-Price and this is Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[child neighs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[Sponsorship Message]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Have you ever seen police on horses walking through Golden Gate Park or down city streets…and wondered…what’s up with that? We sent Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz to learn more about the history and purpose of some of the police force’s most majestic members…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The San Francisco Police Stables are tucked away next to the Polo Fields in Golden Gate Park. Unlike a lot of other stations, it’s quiet here with just the sounds of birds chirping, a few lawnmowers, and the horses of course. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[sound of horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: O\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">h, Rusty Roo!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah who’s this we see?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Rusty. He’s our resident artist and you think I’m joking, but I’m not. He’s learned how to paint. He’s a sweet, sweet, sweet horse. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> His art is abstract and he favors the color red. There are currently six horses living here: Rusty, Bubba, Sonny, John, Duke and Gus. Bubba is the smiler. And John is Mr. Reliable. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hi. Do you like that microphone? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse mouth noise]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oh, yes you do\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, you know, he can’t be too sure. It may be a cover for a carrot. You know, who knows?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My name is Theresa San Giacomo. I’m a sergeant in the police department assigned to the mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because the mounted unit is stationed in Golden Gate Park the public is free to wander by and pet the horses if they’re near the fence.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the police stables, which is also our station. It’s a police station in a barn. Two and one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The barn is a massive concrete affair built in the 1930s. Theresa is giving me the grand tour…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We have pictures in the barn dating back to the late 1800s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It clearly used to house more horses than it does now. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Each horse has their own equipment. Their saddles are specific for them, for their body shape, their size. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s evident Theresa and all the police officers and stable staff are very fond of their four-legged co-workers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They have stars. And so it has their name on it instead of a number. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Theresa has wanted this job for a long time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">it sounds like a B.S. story, but it’s honest to God, true. I was a young girl. We were at Christmas time. We’re at pier 39. We were all dressed up. And I saw two cops on horse posing for pictures. And my mom remembers it and I remember it, I looked at my mom and I said, I want to do that when I grow up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She joined the San Francisco Police Department in 1995 and immediately put her name on a list of officers interested in serving in the mounted unit. But it’s a long list. Theresa only made it into the unit in 2019…24 years later.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I have posed for more pictures and talked to more young people in the Tenderloin on a horse than I probably ever did walking the beat. It is a barrier breaker to communicate with people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The mounted unit has shrunk over the years. Currently there are only 3 officers and six working horses. So, more horses than riders. And that’s where Katie Corrigan comes in.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We like to keep their minds busy as well as their bodies busy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Katie is a stable attendant.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We use a lot of these props.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She shows me a horse stall filled with items she uses to train the horses. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We have trash can lids. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[metal clangs]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You know,\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">you’re walking down the street, you’re going to hear somebody opening their trash can, dropping their trash can lid. All sounds that can be startling. So we use that here at the barn, get the horse used to it so when it’s out there, it’s like, oh I’m familiar with that sound, no big deal.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city is full of things that startle horses…muni bus air brakes, kids shrieking in bounce houses, bubbles… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie Corrigan: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sonny is one of our horses. When I start to blow bubbles, he comes running to them. He loves it. He’ll actually blow into the wand himself to make them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And the horses get plenty of time to rest and nap in the sun too. But it isn’t all fun and games. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They may seem out of date, but mounted officers are still cops. And when the first mounted officer was sworn in June 1, 1874, horses were the best available technology…the fastest way to get around. And they would have put officers at an advantage over most of the public who would be on foot. Theresa says back then \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">many\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> of the police stations were mounted units.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A little known fact: Richmond Police Station used to be a horse police station. Ingleside police station were stables, so they were all over the city.\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But as cars became more common, the police took up the new technologies. The mounted unit shifted to focus more on patrolling Golden Gate Park and the beach and doing community engagement. They’ve also been used to help with crowd control – like during the Iraq war protests in 2003. Theresa was a Tenderloin beat cop at the time, and not working with the horses yet. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was maybe 40 to 50 officers, including myself, on Market Street with a crowd of about 200,000 coming down Market Street towards us. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She says the protest was peaceful, but police needed to clear the street of people so buses and cars could pass. Protesters weren’t listening to her and the cops on foot. But then the cops on horses and motorcycles arrived.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It can become very confrontational very quickly. Escalates, emotions are high, but officers on horses and dirt bikes were able to do it with one pass. It was incredible.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Horses have been used for crowd control because they’re big and intimidating. People tend to get out of the way when a horse advances towards them. But having a horse in a crowd can be risky too. There were a few times in the early 2000s where horses injured people — so Theresa says they’ve stopped using them in crowd control situations.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At this point, you might be wondering, why do we even have a mounted unit anymore? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well, in the late 1980s, city leaders had the same thought and tried to save some money by cutting the mounted unit. That led police supporters to propose a ballot measure that enshrined the mounted unit in the city charter. It passed by a huge margin… more than 85-percent of the vote. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And so now, we are protected by city charter. So the police department has to have a mounted unit.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I guess San Franciscans like their traditions! The most common place to see them now is at the head of parades…or bringing some pomp and circumstance to grand events, like the memorial for Senator Dianne Feinstein. And they do a lot of community engagement. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It really, truly is amazing to interact with people on a horse. And I think San Franciscans deserve that. They deserve officers in their neighborhoods that they are comfortable approaching and talking to.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa says a lot of people have negative associations with the police. They’ve had bad experiences or associate sirens with danger. But the horses change the dynamic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It usually starts with, oh my gosh, horse. Can I pet your horse? Can I take a picture?\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But then it transitions to, you know, how’s things? How are you doing today? Any help you need? You know, giving them phone numbers for resources, resource centers, outreach centers. And not just young people, all people.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Mounted unit officers and horses go out patrolling almost every day. They either head out the front gates to patrol Golden Gate Park or load the horses into trailers and take them to other parts of the city. Theresa suspects they are sent to be a visible presence in areas experiencing more crime. They give tickets, respond to crimes and make arrests like other officers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were down in Washington Square in North Beach a few months ago.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Theresa and another officer were on a routine patrol in North Beach.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There was something going on that shouldn’t have been going on.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A person was grabbing food off plates, harassing outdoor diners. To protect the horses, Theresa says mounted officers try not to dismount. She called for back up from a patrol car and followed the person on horseback.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You can see over everything you have what would be the equivalent of a bird’s eye view of things going on around you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And once the squad car officers stopped the man, Theresa did the paperwork.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">No matter where officers are assigned to patrol, the day starts at the stables. Officers spend some quality time with their horses, cleaning and grooming them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If they’re extremely dusty or dirty, we vacuum them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then they brush their tails and manes. Scrape out the sand and rocks from their hooves.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And make sure their saddles are in good shape.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [Jangling sounds]\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today Sonny and Bubba are heading out on patrol with officers Eric and Theresa. They mount up and head out the front gate to patrol their home turf — Golden Gate Park.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Theresa SanGiacomo:\u003c/b>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> [at a distance] \u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Alright, See you later! Bye!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">[horse hooves clacking]\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was Bay Curious producer and editor Katrina Schwartz. This is Katrina’s last story for Bay Curious for a while because she’s headed out on maternity leave! We wish you all the best in this exciting new chapter, Katrina\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Also some warm welcomes! Ana De Almeida Amaral is joining Bay Curious as an intern and producer Amanda Font is returning to the show after welcoming baby Theo into the world. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Abby Van Soest: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This show was edited by me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Produced by Katrina Schwartz, Amanda Font, and Christopher Beale.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Big thanks to Abby, our question asker this week. Thanks also to Alex Gonzales and \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Rachael Myrow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’ve been listening to Bay Curious. Ye-haw. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}},{"type":"component","content":"","name":"ad","attributes":{"named":{"label":"floatright"},"numeric":["floatright"]}},{"type":"contentString","content":"\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>","attributes":{"named":{},"numeric":[]}}],"link":"/news/11992428/after-150-years-why-do-san-francisco-police-still-have-a-mounted-unit","authors":["234"],"programs":["news_33523"],"series":["news_17986"],"categories":["news_28250","news_8"],"tags":["news_27626","news_2780","news_6627","news_20331"],"featImg":"news_11981905","label":"source_news_11992428"}},"programsReducer":{"possible":{"id":"possible","title":"Possible","info":"Possible is hosted by entrepreneur Reid Hoffman and writer Aria Finger. Together in Possible, Hoffman and Finger lead enlightening discussions about building a brighter collective future. The show features interviews with visionary guests like Trevor Noah, Sam Altman and Janette Sadik-Khan. Possible paints an optimistic portrait of the world we can create through science, policy, business, art and our shared humanity. It asks: What if everything goes right for once? How can we get there? 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