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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though they were peers and close friends, Greglon’s father was one of Bruce’s most fervent disciples.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BKNDc48N4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1442\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1442px) 100vw, 1442px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1338\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1539\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "The ‘Showdown in Oakland’",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"imageCredit": "Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive",
"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.”\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.”\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The aftermath of the fight",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco, but found his people in the East Bay. His legendary 1964 Oakland fight reshaped his martial arts philosophy and stoked rumors about race and kung fu.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though they were peers and close friends, Greglon’s father was one of Bruce’s most fervent disciples.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/k2BKNDc48N4'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/k2BKNDc48N4'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1442\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1442px) 100vw, 1442px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1338\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1539\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "__life-and-legacy-of-ishi-last-of-californias-yahi-tribe",
"title": "The Life and Legacy of Ishi, the Last of California's Yahi Tribe",
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"headTitle": "The Life and Legacy of Ishi, the Last of California’s Yahi Tribe | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious spoke with KQED’s Katherine Monahan about Ishi’s life and legacy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6827825325\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious spoke with KQED’s Katherine Monahan about Ishi’s life and legacy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6827825325\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay",
"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay",
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"headTitle": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.[aside postID=news_12088210 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-11-BL-KQED.jpg']“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "San Francisco Bay is notorious in the shipping world for its tricky waters. That’s why bar pilots — specially trained mariners — board every ship entering or exiting the bay and guide it to safety.",
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"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-yemeni-coffee-boom-how-a-niche-trend-became-a-bay-area-cultural-phenomenon",
"title": "The Yemeni Coffee Boom: How a Niche Trend Became a Bay Area Cultural Phenomenon",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing you notice when you walk into Mohka House in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> is the smell — cardamom, cinnamon, and fresh coffee. Glistening in a display case near the register, sit decadent slices of honeycomb bread and sabaya, traditional Yemeni sweets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The place is often bustling with all types of people: students working on laptops, families drifting in and out, and friends catching up. Along one wall, customers lounge on floor cushions in \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis#/media/File:House_Interior,_Sanaa_(10720986825).jpg\">a traditional Yemeni maglis-style seating area\u003c/a>. It’s not a rare occurrence for every seat in the cafe to be occupied.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a few years ago, a scene like this would have been hard to find in the Bay Area. The first Yemeni coffee shop — \u003ca href=\"https://delahcoffee.com/\">Delah Coffee\u003c/a> — opened in San Francisco in 2022. \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mohkahouse/?hl=en\">Mohka House\u003c/a>, in Oakland, was the second in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, more than 20 Yemeni coffee shops can be found across the region, from Oakland to San Jose, San Francisco to Fremont, and beyond. Their rise has transformed the local coffee landscape and created new gathering spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They may be new, but the story behind them stretches back decades in time and thousands of miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The story starts with Yemeni migration\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The growth of Yemeni coffee shops is closely tied to the growth of the Yemeni-American community itself in the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Yemen’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.britannica.com/event/Yemeni-Civil-War\">ongoing civil war\u003c/a> has driven recent migration, Yemeni immigration to the United States stretches back to the 1970s. Many of the first Yemeni immigrants settled in places like Dearborn, Michigan, where factory jobs were abundant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084985\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084985\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A piece of Khaliat al Nahl, or honeycomb bread, made of soft, cheese-filled rolls, sits at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My father first migrated to Michigan back in the ’70s,” said Hamza Ghalib, co-owner of Mohka House. “He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California attracted many Yemenis for a different reason than Michigan. Beginning in the 1960s and ’70s, thousands of Yemeni immigrants arrived to work in the state’s agricultural industry, particularly in the Central Valley’s vineyards and fields.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of those early Yemeni farmworkers \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandlibrary.org/blogs/post/from-the-middle-east-to-the-bay-area-a-history-of-arab-immigration-to-san-francisco-and-oakland/\">worked alongside Cesar Chavez and those active in the United Farm Workers movement \u003c/a>in California’s Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084987\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084987\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Over time, family and community networks helped establish Yemeni communities in places like Oakland and the Bay Area. Ghalib eventually joined his father in the United States as a teenager and moved to the Bay Area for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just kind of feels like home,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, the Bay Area is home to one of the largest populations of Yemeni communities in the country, third only to Michigan and New York.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Yemen’s rich coffee history\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The popularity of Yemeni coffee shops isn’t just about migration; it’s also about history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a longstanding debate over the origin of coffee. While coffee plants are native to Ethiopia, Yemen was the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-world-came-to-run-on-coffee/#:~:text=The%20Oromo%20people%20from%20this,believers%20in%20its%20medicinal%20properties.\">first place\u003c/a> where coffee was cultivated, traded and consumed as a beverage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084986\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084986\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yaser Ghalib strains a stovetop coffee drink at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For centuries, the Port of Mokha served as one of the world’s most important coffee-trading centers. The word “mocha” traces its roots to the Yemeni port, which became synonymous with high-quality coffee exported throughout the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside Mohka House, photographs of the Port of Mokha hang on the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What distinguishes Yemeni coffee is the aromatic aftertaste,” Ghalib said. “The chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084984\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084984\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hamza Ghalib (left), owner of Mohka House, and his brother Yaser Ghalib work at the Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some customers said they found Yemeni cafes while looking for local alternatives to corporate chains. And Ghalib believes the cafes’ staying power comes from something bigger than just the drinks and unique atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People want a change,” Ghalib said. “Everybody knows what a Starbucks is, but they don’t know what a good quality cup of coffee can be, waiting for them right around the corner.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ghalib said many customers arrived out of curiosity or while looking for an alternative, and stayed because the cafes offered something different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People started exploring,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>More than coffee shops\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Part of what makes Yemeni cafes distinctive is that they’re designed for lingering. In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes serve as social spaces as much as businesses. They’re where people gather after dinner to drink coffee and tea, and spend hours catching up with friends. Many Bay Area Yemeni cafes have carried the spirit of that tradition with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At \u003ca href=\"https://www.qamariacoffee.com/\">Qamaria\u003c/a> in Fremont on a recent Friday night, groups of friends filled nearly every table. Customers describe the cafes as welcoming, diverse and one of the few places open late, other than bars and clubs, where people can simply spend time together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of the only places to do that,” Shivanka Sharma said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084989\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084989\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffeehouse, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Others described it as a place where they could feel at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go, and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in a weird way,” Mahum Fatima said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As these cafes have become the go-to gathering places, they’ve naturally taken on another role too. In some Bay Area Arab, Desi, and Muslim circles, there’s a running joke that Yemeni coffee shops have become the unofficial matchmaking hotspots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it turns out, there’s some truth to the running joke. While reporting this story at Qamaria in Fremont, I met a customer who told me he met his wife at a Yemeni coffee shop. Stories like this one speak to how deeply these cafes have become woven into community life in the Bay Area. They’re not just places to grab coffee, but places where real friendships, relationships and connections are formed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A culture that’s very much alive\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Ghalib, the success of Yemeni cafes represents something larger than coffee. For years, Yemen has often appeared in American news coverage, mainly in the context of war and humanitarian crisis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cafes tell a different story. They’re places where culture is shared, traditions are preserved and new communities are built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People showcasing their talents in so many different ways,” Ghalib said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And judging by the crowds filling Yemeni cafes across the Bay Area, the movement is only getting started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Move over third-wave coffee shops. … the Bay Area has a new coffee trend – Yemeni coffee shops. They’re popping up all over from Marin…to San Francisco, Oakland, Fremont and Redwood City. Today I’m visiting one of them with KQED’s podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, to see what I’ve been missing …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> All right. Show us the way in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yes. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, man, right away the scent in here is so, like, cinnamon. I know, right? We definitely want the Mocha House latte. Definitely. With cinnamon, ginger, and cardamom. Oh, man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Cardamom and nutmeg is, that’s like a reoccurring theme in a lot of Yemeni drinks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Maybe just see if the waiter recommends one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Okay, cool. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey. Hey. Mubarak. Mubarak. This is Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. Yes. Are you one of the owners? Yes. So nice to meet you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> What do you recommend? We think we’re gonna do the Mocha House latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is there another favorite that you’re like, “Definitely get this”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Chai is really good. In Arabic it’s…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of coffee making\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> 10 out of 10 latte art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Oh, I’m trying, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Should we sit at a table, or do you wanna try to get a spot on the couch?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we could sit over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so first off, where have you brought me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Well, right now we’re in Mocha House. It is a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> I brought you here because Mocha House is one of the very many Yemeni coffee shops that I’m sure you’ve been seeing popping up across the Bay. It’s one of my favorite spots. I, I love coming here and doing work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What’s special about Yemeni cafes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Just being around my people, my culture, hearing the Arabic music playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> It really does transport me. It makes me feel like I have a little piece of home in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this place has a sort of unique soundtrack today. What are we hearing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Right now, they are playing the Quran, which is the holy book in Islam. Usually, they do have some pretty good Arabic music playing, but since we are here during Ramadan, which is the month that Muslims [00:02:00] fast, it’s more traditional to abstain from music if you can, and then usually people are listening to the Quran for the month, or trying to at least.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>If you wanna see a very bustling space with a bunch of, you know, young Muslim people, hit up the Yemeni coffee spots after nightly prayers during Ramadan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s a hot tip, ’cause I feel like the Bay Area is often maligned because we don’t have as much of, like, a late-night bar culture as other big cities. Yeah. So I love that as a hot tip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this the only Yemeni coffee house in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely not. In San Francisco, Oakland, even San Jose, they are literally [00:03:00] popping up everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, well, today on Bay Curious, we are looking into why here with all these Yemeni cafes, and why now. But while you go tell us that story, I’m gonna take a sip of this delicious latte and just sit and let you teach me some stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music beings\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand why so many Yemeni coffee shops have come on the scene, we have to go back to Yemen. The war there has been in the news recently, but Yemeni migration to the U.S actually started long before. Going back to the 1970s, there was a lot of political instability and not a lot of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So, many men left their families in Yemen to find work abroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Cities like Dearborn, Michigan offered steady factory jobs, especially in the auto industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Those first Yemeni migrants formed \u003cem>networks. \u003c/em>Relatives helped relatives. Friends followed friends. And Michigan soon became home to the largest concentration of Yemeni Americans in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> My father first migrated to Michigan back in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>This is Hamza Ghalib, one of the brothers who owns Mohka House. His father was part of that first wave of migration, leaving Hamza and the rest of the family in Yemen while he searched for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California. As for me and my brothers, most of us were born in Yemen. I came here when I was 17 and a half.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Hamza joined his father in the States, but went north to the Bay Area for college, where he found a vibrant Yemeni community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… it just kind of feels like it’s home …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area now has the 3rd largest Yemeni community in the U.S., and it’s been steadily growing, especially since the most recent civil war started in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> The increasing presence of the Yemeni community here is helping and attracting more Yemeni immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The civil war in Yemen, which is still ongoing, pushed many families to leave in search of safety. But leaving didn’t mean letting go of home. Hamza says coffee transports him back to the cafes of his childhood and the flocks of pigeons that would hover nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… every sip kind of takes me back to Yemen … drinking it in the middle of the day or early in the morning … watching my pigeons humming around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>There’s a long-running debate about the true origins of coffee: Yemen or Ethiopia. Coffee plants \u003cem>are\u003c/em> native to the western highlands of Ethiopia, but \u003cem>Yemen\u003c/em> was the first to cultivate, trade, and brew coffee as a drink hundreds of years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For centuries, the Port of Mokha in Yemen was the center of the global coffee trade. And yes, THAT Mokha, as in where the word for the chocolatey coffee drink comes from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So when Hamza serves a cup of coffee here, it’s not just caffeine, it’s a piece of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“What distinguishes the Yemeni coffees, especially the coffee that we sell, is the aromatic aftertaste flavor and the chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Before opening a cafe, Hamza’s original plan was to import coffee directly from Yemen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“One of my friends is from Haraz, that’s the origin place of coffee, debatably in the entire world. I was talking to him about importing coffee from Yemen, but with the ports shut down. And we kind of just settled.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So instead of trying to pull coffee out of a country at war, Hamza decided to bring the Yemeni coffee experience \u003cem>here\u003c/em>. Delah Coffee in San Francisco was the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2022/12/29/sfs-first-yemeni-style-coffee-house-expands-to-the-east-bay/\">first\u003c/a> Yemeni coffee shop to open in the Bay Area in 2022. Mohka House was the second, just a year later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>“Mohka House is family …”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Taj James is a regular at Mohka House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>We’ve got these two brothers who are here every day. And when you come in here, they make everyone here feel like family …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You’ll see things behind the counter that you don’t really find at your typical corner cafe. Honeycomb bread and other traditional sweets. Spices like cardamom and cloves. Drinks built around those unique flavors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>And there’s events that happen, and book nights, and music, and so it’s just a real vibrant community space…I think Mohka House reflects the best of what Oakland is.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade in scene sound\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Okay let’s try the Mohka …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene: \u003c/strong>The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Olivia drinking sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Oh yum. That is really like cardamom, hello, we are present. Very just like, comforting. A little spicy. It’s like a warm hug, just like rich and creamy. I’m definitely going to order this again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Scene fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how these cafes evolved into hotspots for young muslim people in the Bay Area. And hey, while you have a moment, why not give to KQED. Just visithttp://\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> . It takes just a few minutes. And we really need you to help us with our $8 million budget gap now that federal funding has been cut. Again, that’s \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music and sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before 2022, the Bay Area didn’t have a single Yemeni cafe. Today, they’re hard to miss. And these cafes are offering more than just coffee. They’re ushering in a whole new way of gathering … Maha Sanad tells us more.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes are places to linger, socialize, and unwind. They often stay open late into the night. That’s true here in the Bay Area, too. And not just in Oakland. There are Yemeni cafes opening across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene:\u003c/strong> I’m at Qamaria in Fremont right now. It’s about 9:30 PM on a Friday night. A lot of groups of friends hanging out, a lot of young people. It’s a really good vibe in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The lighting is warm and inviting. Friends pull chairs together up to crowded tables. And the sound of chatter and laughter is ringing in the air. It’s a little like a bar, but there’s no alcohol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand the appeal, I asked customers why they keep coming back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 1:\u003c/strong> This is, like, the only thing that’s open kind of late. Everything else closes pretty early, so, like, after work we’ll just chill here. It’s, like, very diverse when you come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 2:\u003c/strong> I’m Pakistani, and so we see a lot of Pakistani and Indian people. And it’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in, like, a weird [00:06:00] way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 3:\u003c/strong> I’d say it’s a more homey feel, I would say. I feel more at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 4: \u003c/strong>It offers cultured chai and coffee spot that allows people to gather together, and that’s something that’s kind of lacking in the United States, especially late at night. This is one of the only places to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> That was Amara Ahmed, Mahum Fatima, Shivanka Sharma, and Rumzi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Some customers also told me it’s political. They said consumer boycotts related to Gaza led them to be more \u003cem>intentional\u003c/em> about where they spend their money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>That’s what started it. That’s what ignited it, and then the vibes here is what kept people around, I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And because these cafes are late-night hangouts, they’ve taken on another role too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nasser: “It’s a great place to meet other folks that are your age as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> In the Bay’s Arab, Desi, and Muslim communities, there’s kind of a running joke that if you’re single, this is where you go. Not just for coffee, but to see and be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser:\u003c/strong> “Yeah, I think that’s what kind of makes it attractive for young people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And it didn’t take long before I found someone with firsthand experience. Rumzi introduced me to his friend Nasser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>This guy literally met his wife at Qamaria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yeah I did meet my wife\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You met your wife at a Yemeni coffee shop? No way!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yup!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Back at Mohka House, Hamza says cafes are just the beginning of what Yemeni people have to offer the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>A complete takeover in a good way. People showcasing their talents in so many different ways. I just hope that we can all co-exist with one another, live in peace…That’s how we coexist and that’s what Oakland, specifically, and the Bay Area generally, is well known for, coexistence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For Hamza and for many others, these cafes are more than just business. They are proof that Yemen is not just a place in crisis, but a \u003cem>culture\u003c/em> that is very much alive in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>CREDITS:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED podcast engagement producer Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing you notice when you walk into Mohka House in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> is the smell — cardamom, cinnamon, and fresh coffee. Glistening in a display case near the register, sit decadent slices of honeycomb bread and sabaya, traditional Yemeni sweets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The place is often bustling with all types of people: students working on laptops, families drifting in and out, and friends catching up. Along one wall, customers lounge on floor cushions in \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis#/media/File:House_Interior,_Sanaa_(10720986825).jpg\">a traditional Yemeni maglis-style seating area\u003c/a>. It’s not a rare occurrence for every seat in the cafe to be occupied.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a few years ago, a scene like this would have been hard to find in the Bay Area. The first Yemeni coffee shop — \u003ca href=\"https://delahcoffee.com/\">Delah Coffee\u003c/a> — opened in San Francisco in 2022. \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mohkahouse/?hl=en\">Mohka House\u003c/a>, in Oakland, was the second in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, more than 20 Yemeni coffee shops can be found across the region, from Oakland to San Jose, San Francisco to Fremont, and beyond. Their rise has transformed the local coffee landscape and created new gathering spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They may be new, but the story behind them stretches back decades in time and thousands of miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The story starts with Yemeni migration\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The growth of Yemeni coffee shops is closely tied to the growth of the Yemeni-American community itself in the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Yemen’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.britannica.com/event/Yemeni-Civil-War\">ongoing civil war\u003c/a> has driven recent migration, Yemeni immigration to the United States stretches back to the 1970s. Many of the first Yemeni immigrants settled in places like Dearborn, Michigan, where factory jobs were abundant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084985\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084985\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A piece of Khaliat al Nahl, or honeycomb bread, made of soft, cheese-filled rolls, sits at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My father first migrated to Michigan back in the ’70s,” said Hamza Ghalib, co-owner of Mohka House. “He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California attracted many Yemenis for a different reason than Michigan. Beginning in the 1960s and ’70s, thousands of Yemeni immigrants arrived to work in the state’s agricultural industry, particularly in the Central Valley’s vineyards and fields.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of those early Yemeni farmworkers \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandlibrary.org/blogs/post/from-the-middle-east-to-the-bay-area-a-history-of-arab-immigration-to-san-francisco-and-oakland/\">worked alongside Cesar Chavez and those active in the United Farm Workers movement \u003c/a>in California’s Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084987\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084987\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Over time, family and community networks helped establish Yemeni communities in places like Oakland and the Bay Area. Ghalib eventually joined his father in the United States as a teenager and moved to the Bay Area for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just kind of feels like home,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, the Bay Area is home to one of the largest populations of Yemeni communities in the country, third only to Michigan and New York.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Yemen’s rich coffee history\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The popularity of Yemeni coffee shops isn’t just about migration; it’s also about history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a longstanding debate over the origin of coffee. While coffee plants are native to Ethiopia, Yemen was the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-world-came-to-run-on-coffee/#:~:text=The%20Oromo%20people%20from%20this,believers%20in%20its%20medicinal%20properties.\">first place\u003c/a> where coffee was cultivated, traded and consumed as a beverage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084986\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084986\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yaser Ghalib strains a stovetop coffee drink at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For centuries, the Port of Mokha served as one of the world’s most important coffee-trading centers. The word “mocha” traces its roots to the Yemeni port, which became synonymous with high-quality coffee exported throughout the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside Mohka House, photographs of the Port of Mokha hang on the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What distinguishes Yemeni coffee is the aromatic aftertaste,” Ghalib said. “The chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084984\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084984\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hamza Ghalib (left), owner of Mohka House, and his brother Yaser Ghalib work at the Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some customers said they found Yemeni cafes while looking for local alternatives to corporate chains. And Ghalib believes the cafes’ staying power comes from something bigger than just the drinks and unique atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People want a change,” Ghalib said. “Everybody knows what a Starbucks is, but they don’t know what a good quality cup of coffee can be, waiting for them right around the corner.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ghalib said many customers arrived out of curiosity or while looking for an alternative, and stayed because the cafes offered something different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People started exploring,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>More than coffee shops\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Part of what makes Yemeni cafes distinctive is that they’re designed for lingering. In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes serve as social spaces as much as businesses. They’re where people gather after dinner to drink coffee and tea, and spend hours catching up with friends. Many Bay Area Yemeni cafes have carried the spirit of that tradition with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At \u003ca href=\"https://www.qamariacoffee.com/\">Qamaria\u003c/a> in Fremont on a recent Friday night, groups of friends filled nearly every table. Customers describe the cafes as welcoming, diverse and one of the few places open late, other than bars and clubs, where people can simply spend time together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of the only places to do that,” Shivanka Sharma said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084989\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084989\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffeehouse, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Others described it as a place where they could feel at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go, and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in a weird way,” Mahum Fatima said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As these cafes have become the go-to gathering places, they’ve naturally taken on another role too. In some Bay Area Arab, Desi, and Muslim circles, there’s a running joke that Yemeni coffee shops have become the unofficial matchmaking hotspots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it turns out, there’s some truth to the running joke. While reporting this story at Qamaria in Fremont, I met a customer who told me he met his wife at a Yemeni coffee shop. Stories like this one speak to how deeply these cafes have become woven into community life in the Bay Area. They’re not just places to grab coffee, but places where real friendships, relationships and connections are formed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A culture that’s very much alive\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Ghalib, the success of Yemeni cafes represents something larger than coffee. For years, Yemen has often appeared in American news coverage, mainly in the context of war and humanitarian crisis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cafes tell a different story. They’re places where culture is shared, traditions are preserved and new communities are built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People showcasing their talents in so many different ways,” Ghalib said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And judging by the crowds filling Yemeni cafes across the Bay Area, the movement is only getting started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Move over third-wave coffee shops. … the Bay Area has a new coffee trend – Yemeni coffee shops. They’re popping up all over from Marin…to San Francisco, Oakland, Fremont and Redwood City. Today I’m visiting one of them with KQED’s podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, to see what I’ve been missing …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> All right. Show us the way in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yes. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, man, right away the scent in here is so, like, cinnamon. I know, right? We definitely want the Mocha House latte. Definitely. With cinnamon, ginger, and cardamom. Oh, man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Cardamom and nutmeg is, that’s like a reoccurring theme in a lot of Yemeni drinks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Maybe just see if the waiter recommends one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Okay, cool. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey. Hey. Mubarak. Mubarak. This is Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. Yes. Are you one of the owners? Yes. So nice to meet you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> What do you recommend? We think we’re gonna do the Mocha House latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is there another favorite that you’re like, “Definitely get this”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Chai is really good. In Arabic it’s…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of coffee making\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> 10 out of 10 latte art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Oh, I’m trying, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Should we sit at a table, or do you wanna try to get a spot on the couch?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we could sit over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so first off, where have you brought me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Well, right now we’re in Mocha House. It is a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> I brought you here because Mocha House is one of the very many Yemeni coffee shops that I’m sure you’ve been seeing popping up across the Bay. It’s one of my favorite spots. I, I love coming here and doing work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What’s special about Yemeni cafes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Just being around my people, my culture, hearing the Arabic music playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> It really does transport me. It makes me feel like I have a little piece of home in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this place has a sort of unique soundtrack today. What are we hearing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Right now, they are playing the Quran, which is the holy book in Islam. Usually, they do have some pretty good Arabic music playing, but since we are here during Ramadan, which is the month that Muslims [00:02:00] fast, it’s more traditional to abstain from music if you can, and then usually people are listening to the Quran for the month, or trying to at least.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>If you wanna see a very bustling space with a bunch of, you know, young Muslim people, hit up the Yemeni coffee spots after nightly prayers during Ramadan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s a hot tip, ’cause I feel like the Bay Area is often maligned because we don’t have as much of, like, a late-night bar culture as other big cities. Yeah. So I love that as a hot tip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this the only Yemeni coffee house in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely not. In San Francisco, Oakland, even San Jose, they are literally [00:03:00] popping up everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, well, today on Bay Curious, we are looking into why here with all these Yemeni cafes, and why now. But while you go tell us that story, I’m gonna take a sip of this delicious latte and just sit and let you teach me some stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music beings\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand why so many Yemeni coffee shops have come on the scene, we have to go back to Yemen. The war there has been in the news recently, but Yemeni migration to the U.S actually started long before. Going back to the 1970s, there was a lot of political instability and not a lot of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So, many men left their families in Yemen to find work abroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Cities like Dearborn, Michigan offered steady factory jobs, especially in the auto industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Those first Yemeni migrants formed \u003cem>networks. \u003c/em>Relatives helped relatives. Friends followed friends. And Michigan soon became home to the largest concentration of Yemeni Americans in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> My father first migrated to Michigan back in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>This is Hamza Ghalib, one of the brothers who owns Mohka House. His father was part of that first wave of migration, leaving Hamza and the rest of the family in Yemen while he searched for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California. As for me and my brothers, most of us were born in Yemen. I came here when I was 17 and a half.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Hamza joined his father in the States, but went north to the Bay Area for college, where he found a vibrant Yemeni community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… it just kind of feels like it’s home …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area now has the 3rd largest Yemeni community in the U.S., and it’s been steadily growing, especially since the most recent civil war started in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> The increasing presence of the Yemeni community here is helping and attracting more Yemeni immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The civil war in Yemen, which is still ongoing, pushed many families to leave in search of safety. But leaving didn’t mean letting go of home. Hamza says coffee transports him back to the cafes of his childhood and the flocks of pigeons that would hover nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… every sip kind of takes me back to Yemen … drinking it in the middle of the day or early in the morning … watching my pigeons humming around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>There’s a long-running debate about the true origins of coffee: Yemen or Ethiopia. Coffee plants \u003cem>are\u003c/em> native to the western highlands of Ethiopia, but \u003cem>Yemen\u003c/em> was the first to cultivate, trade, and brew coffee as a drink hundreds of years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For centuries, the Port of Mokha in Yemen was the center of the global coffee trade. And yes, THAT Mokha, as in where the word for the chocolatey coffee drink comes from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So when Hamza serves a cup of coffee here, it’s not just caffeine, it’s a piece of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“What distinguishes the Yemeni coffees, especially the coffee that we sell, is the aromatic aftertaste flavor and the chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Before opening a cafe, Hamza’s original plan was to import coffee directly from Yemen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“One of my friends is from Haraz, that’s the origin place of coffee, debatably in the entire world. I was talking to him about importing coffee from Yemen, but with the ports shut down. And we kind of just settled.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So instead of trying to pull coffee out of a country at war, Hamza decided to bring the Yemeni coffee experience \u003cem>here\u003c/em>. Delah Coffee in San Francisco was the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2022/12/29/sfs-first-yemeni-style-coffee-house-expands-to-the-east-bay/\">first\u003c/a> Yemeni coffee shop to open in the Bay Area in 2022. Mohka House was the second, just a year later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>“Mohka House is family …”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Taj James is a regular at Mohka House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>We’ve got these two brothers who are here every day. And when you come in here, they make everyone here feel like family …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You’ll see things behind the counter that you don’t really find at your typical corner cafe. Honeycomb bread and other traditional sweets. Spices like cardamom and cloves. Drinks built around those unique flavors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>And there’s events that happen, and book nights, and music, and so it’s just a real vibrant community space…I think Mohka House reflects the best of what Oakland is.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade in scene sound\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Okay let’s try the Mohka …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene: \u003c/strong>The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Olivia drinking sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Oh yum. That is really like cardamom, hello, we are present. Very just like, comforting. A little spicy. It’s like a warm hug, just like rich and creamy. I’m definitely going to order this again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Scene fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how these cafes evolved into hotspots for young muslim people in the Bay Area. And hey, while you have a moment, why not give to KQED. Just visithttp://\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> . It takes just a few minutes. And we really need you to help us with our $8 million budget gap now that federal funding has been cut. Again, that’s \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music and sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before 2022, the Bay Area didn’t have a single Yemeni cafe. Today, they’re hard to miss. And these cafes are offering more than just coffee. They’re ushering in a whole new way of gathering … Maha Sanad tells us more.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes are places to linger, socialize, and unwind. They often stay open late into the night. That’s true here in the Bay Area, too. And not just in Oakland. There are Yemeni cafes opening across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene:\u003c/strong> I’m at Qamaria in Fremont right now. It’s about 9:30 PM on a Friday night. A lot of groups of friends hanging out, a lot of young people. It’s a really good vibe in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The lighting is warm and inviting. Friends pull chairs together up to crowded tables. And the sound of chatter and laughter is ringing in the air. It’s a little like a bar, but there’s no alcohol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand the appeal, I asked customers why they keep coming back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 1:\u003c/strong> This is, like, the only thing that’s open kind of late. Everything else closes pretty early, so, like, after work we’ll just chill here. It’s, like, very diverse when you come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 2:\u003c/strong> I’m Pakistani, and so we see a lot of Pakistani and Indian people. And it’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in, like, a weird [00:06:00] way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 3:\u003c/strong> I’d say it’s a more homey feel, I would say. I feel more at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 4: \u003c/strong>It offers cultured chai and coffee spot that allows people to gather together, and that’s something that’s kind of lacking in the United States, especially late at night. This is one of the only places to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> That was Amara Ahmed, Mahum Fatima, Shivanka Sharma, and Rumzi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Some customers also told me it’s political. They said consumer boycotts related to Gaza led them to be more \u003cem>intentional\u003c/em> about where they spend their money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>That’s what started it. That’s what ignited it, and then the vibes here is what kept people around, I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And because these cafes are late-night hangouts, they’ve taken on another role too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nasser: “It’s a great place to meet other folks that are your age as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> In the Bay’s Arab, Desi, and Muslim communities, there’s kind of a running joke that if you’re single, this is where you go. Not just for coffee, but to see and be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser:\u003c/strong> “Yeah, I think that’s what kind of makes it attractive for young people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And it didn’t take long before I found someone with firsthand experience. Rumzi introduced me to his friend Nasser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>This guy literally met his wife at Qamaria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yeah I did meet my wife\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You met your wife at a Yemeni coffee shop? No way!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yup!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Back at Mohka House, Hamza says cafes are just the beginning of what Yemeni people have to offer the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>A complete takeover in a good way. People showcasing their talents in so many different ways. I just hope that we can all co-exist with one another, live in peace…That’s how we coexist and that’s what Oakland, specifically, and the Bay Area generally, is well known for, coexistence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For Hamza and for many others, these cafes are more than just business. They are proof that Yemen is not just a place in crisis, but a \u003cem>culture\u003c/em> that is very much alive in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>CREDITS:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED podcast engagement producer Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published in 2022 and has been lightly updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any group that feels obligated to include “Are you a sex cult?” on its \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html\">frequently asked questions page\u003c/a> probably has something of a public relations problem, even when the answer is, “No.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Seriously, we are in many ways fairly traditional, suburban families and individuals but we’re also a group exploring pleasurable living, which qualifies us as an alternative lifestyle,” writes the intentional community Lafayette Morehouse on its website. According to a 2020 webcast from Morehouse, “dozens and dozens” of people are still living communally in a group that has been active since the late 1960s. It’s one of a small fraction of surviving communes from that heyday of experimentation in group living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Contra Costa County locals like Sabrina McQueen used to see group members — who live on a secluded parcel of some 20-plus acres, including a swimming pool, tennis court and, at one time, a boxing ring — driving around town in purple limos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d drop people off at the grocery store,” McQueen said. “So it’s like, ‘Well, what’s that?’ And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the Purple People.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Purple is a big theme with Morehouse, whose members also live in purple-painted houses. In high school, McQueen and her friends were so curious about the group they’d make a night of spying on the property from the one lookout point where you could see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “Purple People” themselves \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html#purple-people\">do not answer to that name\u003c/a>. “Do I look purple to you?” one Morehouse member \u003ca href=\"https://archives.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/purple-haze/Content?oid=2132347\">told an SF Weekly reporter in 1995\u003c/a>. And their penchant for privacy is well-known in the area; McQueen’s father was a mail carrier, but Morehouse wouldn’t let him get past the gate of their property to make his deliveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McQueen herself had never heard the name Lafayette Morehouse. She has, however, heard the sex cult rumor, and media organizations also have referred to the group that way. So she wants to know the truth about Morehouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m just wondering, are the Purple People still there and what are they about?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Marco Beneteau took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 2000s and has lived in several communes. He said the idea that the group is a cult is “complete nonsense,” and that the group has displayed none of the characteristics associated with cults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives. None of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academics who study intentional communities like Morehouse eschew the very word “cult,” said \u003ca href=\"https://religiousstudies.ku.edu/timothy-miller\">Tim Miller, a professor of religious studies at the University of Kansas\u003c/a> who has written extensively about 1960s-era communes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The way people in common parlance use the word is to say [this is] something I don’t like, and that may have a good basis and it may not,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why has Lafayette Morehouse acquired this reputation? I very much wanted to talk to the group, but despite numerous emails and phone calls, they mostly ignored me. However, some of their history is available in newspaper stories, magazine articles and books, on websites and via former members. What has come through is that Lafayette Morehouse is one of the few surviving links to an increasingly forgotten part of Bay Area history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/TgR5YkWAekM\" title=\"YouTube video player\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>This promotional video produced by Lafayette Morehouse is the only one on their YouTube channel.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Communes, gurus and human potential\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To really understand Lafayette Morehouse, you have to grasp a few things about the 1960s and early 1970s other than Bob Dylan, Vietnam and hippies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the era, the younger generation — believe it or not, the baby boomers now so readily derided as out of touch — formed the bulk of a counterculture looking to overthrow norms and conventions in just about everything: religion, politics, music, art — you name it. Hundreds of thousands — even up to a million — young people took to living together in groups organized around political, religious or environmental ideals, said Miller, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/60s-Communes-Syracuse-Conflict-Resolution/dp/081560601X?asin=081560601X&revisionId=&format=4&depth=2\">authored a survey of the era’s communes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 1965, he said, “there was just an explosion” of new communities. These groups sought to build a better society based on values other than those enshrined in what Miller calls “this sort of me-first” American culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While communitarian ideas were inspiring people to live together in collectivist ways, a parallel, more individualistic philosophy also was gaining ground. The human potential movement was based on the notion that people could tap into their unused abilities to attain “self-actualization.” The Bay Area became a hub for both these ideas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12081386 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-08-KQED-3.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This also was the age when high-profile evangelists pushed for expanding human consciousness. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2013/10/timothy-leary-archives/\">The former Harvard professor Timothy Leary\u003c/a> urged young people to take psychedelic drugs and “turn on, tune in and drop out.” Meanwhile, self-educated former car salesman Werner Erhard promoted \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training\">a program of intense seminars called EST\u003c/a>, designed to bring about personal transformation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1967, at the intersection of communes, the human potential movement and the rise of these charismatic gurus, appeared the founder of Morehouse: Victor Baranco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Victor Baranco was one of the teachers who had come up with a philosophy that helped people to self-actualize or reach their human potential,” said Laurie Rivlin-Heller, who knew Baranco in the 1970s when she lived in Morehouse residences in Oakland and Rohnert Park. \u003ca href=\"https://communalstudies.org/product/communal-societies-vol-25-2005/\">She later wrote her master’s thesis on the group\u003c/a>, which was initially called the \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandmorehouse.com/\">Institute of Human Abilities\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco was a former appliance salesman now selling a new philosophy, in which the goal, broadly speaking, was to remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was good at reeling people into his orbit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You would participate in a course in which he was the teacher,” Rivlin-Heller said. “And he would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing. Not only did he listen, but he looked and he could assess on the basis of your question and maybe a couple of follow-up questions where you were coming from. It was a unique gift.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco’s group made money by selling courses and renovating dilapidated houses he’d purchased. The Morehouse concept was so successful that at one point it had dozens of affiliates around the country, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/sgt-bilko-meets-the-new-culture-182617/\">Rolling Stone reported\u003c/a> that people in Berkeley were calling the founder “the Colonel Sanders of the commune scene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That 1971 article was less than complimentary, portraying Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo surrounded by obsequious devotees who paid money to hear him deliver homespun homilies. Baranco was also quoted as acknowledging he’d been a “hustler” who’d made “big money in shady ways. Not necessarily illegal, but shady,” including selling phony diamond rings and watches. The article later appeared in a book called “Mindfuckers” alongside a chapter on Charles Manson — not a good look for any leader of a commune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rivlin-Heller said the article missed the point of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He put everything up front,” she said. “The introductory course to Morehouse is called the ‘Mark Group,’ where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were volunteering, entering into the hustle and participating in it. Those that I know, [they] had a good experience there … and if they didn’t feel they were getting value, they would leave.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another former Morehouse adherent, Rebekah Beneteau, said she took a lot of courses at the Lafayette property in the 1990s and also lived with her then-husband, Marco, in a Yonkers, New York, Morehouse. She described her time there as “a really life-changing experience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12084476 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I call them the silver-lining people,” Beneteau said, “because their philosophy and approach to life was to always view everything as if it was a gift and their own creation. And how could they use it? How could they view it as already perfect, including the potential for change?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the primary components of the Morehouse philosophy, both Beneateaus said, is that a community runs better when its women are happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau said that while the Morehouses clearly had a money-making component, she never felt they took advantage of her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve actually been affiliated with way more organizations that are way more pushy and suck your money out,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So what’s with the sex?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lafayette Morehouse bills its philosophy as “responsible hedonism.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hedonism is an ethical point of view that has the pursuit of pleasure as the highest goal,” the group writes on its website. “People often think that living pleasurably means that you don’t care about anybody else. Our experience has proven that if you are going to have a pleasurable life, then you have to see to it that others around you live pleasurably too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A big part of Morehouse’s hedonistic doctrine appears to involve having better sex. The group currently has nine sensuality-related \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">courses advertised on its website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11913695\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1296px\">\u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11913695\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png\" alt=\"A screenshot of the nine course titles offered by Lafayette Morehouse related to sensuality.\" width=\"1296\" height=\"412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png 1296w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-800x254.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-1020x324.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-160x51.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1296px) 100vw, 1296px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Current sensuality-related courses offered by Lafayette Morehouse. \u003ccite>(Lafayette Morehouse)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The focus on sex is a reflection of the culture at the time of Morehouse’s founding, said Rivlin-Heller. Baranco, who was in his 30s at the time, saw a way for people his age and older to participate in the sexual revolution happening around them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these different gurus had different hooks,” Rivlin-Heller said. “Ram Dass did meditation and chanting and Buddhism. Esalen had humanistic psychology. So the sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One notorious Morehouse event was a \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/first-demo.html\">public demonstration\u003c/a> in 1976 of what the group claimed was a woman having a three-hour orgasm. (No, I couldn’t find any video.) And Baranco took advantage of California’s loose postsecondary education standards to turn the Lafayette commune into “More University,” which offered Ph.D.s in the humanities and sensuality, and conducted what the organization said was sexual research. In 1992, The San Francisco Chronicle reported that courses cost as much as $16,800. A 1994 profile of the university in \u003ca href=\"https://docplayer.net/45093155-Volume-2-no-7-march-1994-2-50.html\">the conservative magazine Heterodoxy\u003c/a> described a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/31/us/california-trying-to-close-worthless-diploma-schools.html\">less than rigorous academic program\u003c/a>, to put it mildly, as well as some alleged troubling sexual incidents, though no arrests or charges were ever made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s and ’90s, Baranco unsuccessfully sued The Chronicle and The Contra Costa Times for libel. One court decision is not-safe-for-work reading: According to the court, More University’s Advanced Sensuality class included research in “engorgement, lubrication, seminal secretion.” It said one of the goals of the course was to “make friends with another crotch.” The university was forced to shut down in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau, at least, believes Morehouse did legitimate sexual research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are many people now who are teaching [the one-hour orgasm] who either attribute it to them or not,” she said. “They have a technique that allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a whole hour?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=314&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Flafayette.morehouse%2Fvideos%2F2506462923003338%2F&show_text=false&width=560&t=0\" width=\"560\" height=\"314\" style=\"border:none;overflow:hidden\" scrolling=\"no\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>A Facebook Live video from Lafayette Morehouse discussing their approach to communal living and COVID-19.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Fear of what’s different\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1970s into the early 1990s, Lafayette Morehouse engaged in an ongoing battle with the county and neighbors over zoning issues and code violations, including allowing unhoused people to live on the property in tents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tim Miller, the historian of intentional communities, said it’s not uncommon for communes to be unpopular among local residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a very typical thing that’s happened throughout history,” he said. “There seems to be an instinctive fear among a lot of people of anything that’s new or different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miller said the remaining ’60s-era communes are “often quite quiet. They don’t want to call attention to themselves, even though … they get along with their neighbors and all of that. [But] the big problem they have over and over are zoning laws [that] often forbid communal living.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surviving the decades\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Baranco died in Hawaii in 2002, and since then Lafayette Morehouse has been mostly free of controversy. The great swell of ’60s-era communes eventually dissipated, leaving only a small fraction of surviving groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A friend of mine, who still lives on one of the ’60s-era communes, said when their community had a great out-migration in the ’80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all,” said Miller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say why Morehouse has outlasted its peers, but Rebekah Beneteau said \u003ca href=\"https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/how-to-free-love-commune-neil-strauss-2018-6/\">Morehouse has figured out how to make group living work\u003c/a>. During the coronavirus pandemic, \u003ca href=\"https://fb.watch/cNfpmcgSuM/\">the group held a webcast\u003c/a> where they described the difficulty of living in a close community with so many people during a pandemic. But true to their “silver lining” philosophy, they were looking for ways the experience could actually enhance their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not a bad goal, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today we’re going to venture back to the 1960s and 70s, when the Bay Area was a center for many social movements.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People took to the streets to protest the Vietnam War …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound pop of protest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Black Panther Party formed in response to police brutality against Black people …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Speech: We are talking about the survival of Black people, nothing else…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Women were frustrated by the gender inequality they faced daily … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chanting: Free our sisters, free ourselves\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And a lot of people started to think differently about how they wanted to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As many as a million Americans decided to join communes, group living situations, often with shared chores and finances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now the vast majority of those intentional communities that formed in the 60s and 70s have disappeared. But not all of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reporter Jon Brooks went looking for one that survived in the suburbs of Contra Costa County, a group that has been steeped in mystery and sometimes controversy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One note for listeners: we do talk about sex in this episode. It first aired in 2022. Here’s Jon… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you were a high school kid growing up in the Walnut Creek area back in the 1990s, there wasn’t a lot to do. That’s one reason why Sabrina McQueen has never forgotten the big purple car she saw driving around town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’d drop people off at the grocery store. So it’s like, well, what’s that? And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the purple people.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Purple people. That is fun to say. Say it once, you’re probably gonna want to say it again. Purple people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who could they possibly be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s what Sabrina wants to know. She remembers in the seventh grade she went with a friend to pick someone up who lived on the purple people’s property…a com pound on some 20-plus acres. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was so excited that I thought I was going to go inside and be able to see it. And then we got just to the gate, and that was it. You can’t get past the gate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What exactly was going on in there? It’s one of those lingering mysteries to people who live in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, here we should tell you, the Purple People aren’t really called the Purple People. (I know, rats.) That is just what locals call them. Why? Because they’re known to drive around in purple vehicles and live in purple-painted houses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know the official name of the group?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> No, I don’t. That’s why I asked this question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their real name is Lafayette Morehouse. And they are one of a very small fraction of 1960s-era communes that survive to this day. Lafayette Morehouse was so mysterious to locals like Sabrina, she and her friends on weekends would drive to this one lookout point to see if they could catch a glimpse of the property. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would be kind of like, Hey, what do you guys want to go do tonight? It’s like, Oh, you guys want to go like, check out the purple people? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s driving me to that spot now. But she’s having a hard time finding it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, here’s where we’re going to turn. But it has been 30 years\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Excuse me, we’re looking for the Purple People campus … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Purple people campus? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sorry, no idea.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You never heard that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you think they don’t know for real?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lafayette Morehouse has a colorful history, which we’re going to get into in a moment, but in recent decades it’s been quiet. Three years ago, the group was briefly in the news after someone left racist graffiti on their buildings. Morehouse’s reaction to the media at the time: No comment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Naturally, I wanted very much to talk to the group, but they declined multiple interview requests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I did find three former Morehouse members who did want to talk. Like Rebekah Beneteau. She took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 1990s. The group was so successful at attracting members, Morehouse branches sprang up around the country. Beneteau says she lived for six years in one of the sister Morehouse communes in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really the core of Morehouse’s philosophy is that life is better lived together and that we disrupted that in the 50s by shuttling every woman, every couple, off into their own houses. And then we invented Valium because there were all these women alone at home going nuts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1960s and 70s a lot of people were looking for new ways to live more fulfilling lives, at least more fulfilling than their parents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One way to escape the prescribed path laid out by society – school, job, marriage, kids, death – was to live together in groups organized around political, religious, or environmental ideals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hundreds of thousands, up to a million, people tried their hand at communal living, says professor Tim Miller, an expert on intentional communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tim Miller:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Starting in 1965, I think you can date it that precisely. there was a whole new wave of communities came along… (4:00) I would say by and large these new young people’s communities were not very popular with mainstream society, and I would say that’s a very typical thing. I think it’s just that fear of what’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1970s ..and all the way through the 90s, Morehouse and Contra Costa County also battled over zoning issues and code violations … skirmishes that were frequently reported in the news. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Psychedelic music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The 1960s and 70s were also the age of … the guru. Like Timothy Leary – who urged people to take psychedelic drugs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Leary: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Turn on, tune in, and drop out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Werner Erhard, creator of something called E-S-T, or EST. This was a program of intense seminars supposedly leading to personal transformation. What Erhard was prescribing was… um, I don’t know…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Werner Erhard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are…that love is attention. People are…that love is attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of these different gurus had different hooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Laurie Rivlin Heller. In the early ‘70s she dropped out of college and moved to the Bay Area. Here, she got interested in the human potential movement – the idea that people could tap into their unused abilities to reach their full potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s when she discovered someone named \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We’ve got to pause for a quick break. When we return … we get to know Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laurie Rivlin Heller met Victor Baranco in the early 70s, and found herself drawn to him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Berkeley-born Baranco was the founder of Morehouse, which had branches in a few Bay Area cities. Baranco had a successful career as an appliance salesman. But with Morehouse, he was offering something more than consumer goods. He was selling a new philosophy. The goal…remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">good\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The fact that he could so clearly understand who I was and where I was coming from. And he did that to everybody. It was a unique gift. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco called his program for living “responsible hedonism.” That means creating a pleasurable life for not only yourself, but for others. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The responsible part\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was that you take responsibility for your life and your action. Things could change, but it was up to you to do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hedonism part? That’s where the “more” in Mor ehouse comes in. And a lot of it has to do with … you guessed it … or you didn’t, because this is public media: sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco. There were young people in this time period who were experiencing sexuality in a way that hadn’t been done previously. And there were older people who wanted a piece of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">According to former members, one of the tenets of Baranco’s teaching was that a community functioned better when the women were happy, sexually and otherwise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group is famous for a 1976 demonstration of a woman reportedly having a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">3-hour\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> orgasm. Yes I said what I said. I spent a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> of time looking for that tape. Didn’t find it. But I did find some current Morehouse YouTube videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the fundamentals of sensuality course, we discuss the nature of orgasm. And in the afternoon, there’s a live demonstration of a woman in orgasm for an hour that will really blow your mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Beneteau…the woman who lived in a Morehouse commune in New York… was at first put off by the emphasis on sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They had a class where a woman was demonstrating being in orgasm for an hour. I thought that was extremely freaky. I didn’t want anything to do with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she did like the group’s positive outlook and focus on people’s ability to change. Now, she offers sex and intimacy coaching. And, she changed her mind about the one-hour orgasm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They have a technique that also allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 30:05 Can you really have a one-hour orgasm?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mm, 27 minutes. Pretty, pretty good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this focus on sex has led to a certain reputation for Morehouse among its neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a couple of rumors, one that it was a sex cult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, the group has definitely at times been labeled a sex cult. So much so they even have a question on their F-A-Q page … “Are you a sex cult?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I mean, that’s complete nonsense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Marco Beneteau. He and Rebekah used to be married. He also took a lot of Morehouse courses. Then the two of them started their own commune in Philadelphia. Now he lives on a commune in Wyoming. So the man knows his communes. He says Morehouse didn’t have any of the characteristics people associate with cults.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion. You know, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives, that, you know, none of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If Morehouse isn’t a cult, it has been controversial. In 1971, Rolling Stone published a pretty unflattering portrait of the group – complete with Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo. The article implied Baranco was making a lot of money off group members. But Laurie Rivlin Heller says there was nothing devious going on. Self-interest was an open part of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would say that he put everything up front. The introductory course to Morehouse is called the Mark Group, where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were voluntarily entering into the hustle and participating in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Still, that Rolling Stone article later appeared in a book alongside a chapter on Charles Manson. Not a good look for any leader of a commune. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Using classical educational modes, More university is dedicated to the full realization of human potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco later turned Lafayette Morehouse into More University. More University, more controversy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university offered PhDs in the humanities and of course, sensuality, including sexual research. In 1992, the San Francisco Chronicle reported at least one course cost almost 17-thousand dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 80s and 90s Baranco sued the Chronicle and the Contra Costa Times for libel. (Hashtag please don’t sue \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">us\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.) The court threw those lawsuits out. One of the decisions is not-safe-for-work reading. According to the court, a goal of More University’s Advanced Sensuality class was to “make friends with another crotch.” Which, if you’re listening Morehouse, would be an awesome bumper sticker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university shut down in the mid-90s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco died in 2002 at the age of 68. And, eventually, the great majority of ‘60s communes faded away. Professor Timothy Miller:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Miller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Friend of mine, who still lives on one of the 60s era communes, said when their community had a great outmigration in the 80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Morehouse has survived. The decades come, the decades go, and they’re still doing their thing – whatever it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Back in the car with Sabrina, we wandered around trying to find that one view of the campus she remembers. We kept taking wrong turns, going back over the same streets. And then… …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a purple house.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s excited. She’s a Purple People fan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wonder if that belongs to… Oh, yeah, I mean, that is, does that look like it’s purple?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> property, with tennis courts and everything. But really, there’s not much to see and the group does have a right to its privacy. Sabrina, I think, is viewing it through the eyes of her high school years, when there was this mysterious aura around this counterculture group … \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in her own suburban home town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wanted to know what she thinks of the Purple People now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is kind of interesting that this has survived so long, which I think is so amazing. I mean, hey, if that’s what they want to do and they’re peaceful and they are able to be part of our community, it sounds like they’re having fun. So good for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m a reporter. It’s my job to be skeptical. But I will say one thing. At the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, Lafayette Morehouse went live over Facebook. They were definitely taking safety seriously. But, their aim wasn’t just to survive COVID, they said that wasn’t a high enough goal. They wanted to use the experience as a way to make their lives even better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If life hands you really sour lemons, make even sweeter lemonade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I got to admit, I’m still thinking about that one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was reporter Jon Brooks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you like Bay Curious, I’ve got a request. Please tell your podcast listening friends about the show. We all like a good recommendation…help us grow!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And as always, consider donating to help sustain the work we do on Bay Curious. More info at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Brendan Willard and Sebastian Miño-Bucheli also helped on this episode. We get extra support from: Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published in 2022 and has been lightly updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any group that feels obligated to include “Are you a sex cult?” on its \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html\">frequently asked questions page\u003c/a> probably has something of a public relations problem, even when the answer is, “No.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Seriously, we are in many ways fairly traditional, suburban families and individuals but we’re also a group exploring pleasurable living, which qualifies us as an alternative lifestyle,” writes the intentional community Lafayette Morehouse on its website. According to a 2020 webcast from Morehouse, “dozens and dozens” of people are still living communally in a group that has been active since the late 1960s. It’s one of a small fraction of surviving communes from that heyday of experimentation in group living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Contra Costa County locals like Sabrina McQueen used to see group members — who live on a secluded parcel of some 20-plus acres, including a swimming pool, tennis court and, at one time, a boxing ring — driving around town in purple limos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d drop people off at the grocery store,” McQueen said. “So it’s like, ‘Well, what’s that?’ And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the Purple People.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Purple is a big theme with Morehouse, whose members also live in purple-painted houses. In high school, McQueen and her friends were so curious about the group they’d make a night of spying on the property from the one lookout point where you could see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “Purple People” themselves \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html#purple-people\">do not answer to that name\u003c/a>. “Do I look purple to you?” one Morehouse member \u003ca href=\"https://archives.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/purple-haze/Content?oid=2132347\">told an SF Weekly reporter in 1995\u003c/a>. And their penchant for privacy is well-known in the area; McQueen’s father was a mail carrier, but Morehouse wouldn’t let him get past the gate of their property to make his deliveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McQueen herself had never heard the name Lafayette Morehouse. She has, however, heard the sex cult rumor, and media organizations also have referred to the group that way. So she wants to know the truth about Morehouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m just wondering, are the Purple People still there and what are they about?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Marco Beneteau took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 2000s and has lived in several communes. He said the idea that the group is a cult is “complete nonsense,” and that the group has displayed none of the characteristics associated with cults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives. None of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academics who study intentional communities like Morehouse eschew the very word “cult,” said \u003ca href=\"https://religiousstudies.ku.edu/timothy-miller\">Tim Miller, a professor of religious studies at the University of Kansas\u003c/a> who has written extensively about 1960s-era communes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The way people in common parlance use the word is to say [this is] something I don’t like, and that may have a good basis and it may not,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why has Lafayette Morehouse acquired this reputation? I very much wanted to talk to the group, but despite numerous emails and phone calls, they mostly ignored me. However, some of their history is available in newspaper stories, magazine articles and books, on websites and via former members. What has come through is that Lafayette Morehouse is one of the few surviving links to an increasingly forgotten part of Bay Area history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/TgR5YkWAekM\" title=\"YouTube video player\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>This promotional video produced by Lafayette Morehouse is the only one on their YouTube channel.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Communes, gurus and human potential\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To really understand Lafayette Morehouse, you have to grasp a few things about the 1960s and early 1970s other than Bob Dylan, Vietnam and hippies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the era, the younger generation — believe it or not, the baby boomers now so readily derided as out of touch — formed the bulk of a counterculture looking to overthrow norms and conventions in just about everything: religion, politics, music, art — you name it. Hundreds of thousands — even up to a million — young people took to living together in groups organized around political, religious or environmental ideals, said Miller, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/60s-Communes-Syracuse-Conflict-Resolution/dp/081560601X?asin=081560601X&revisionId=&format=4&depth=2\">authored a survey of the era’s communes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 1965, he said, “there was just an explosion” of new communities. These groups sought to build a better society based on values other than those enshrined in what Miller calls “this sort of me-first” American culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While communitarian ideas were inspiring people to live together in collectivist ways, a parallel, more individualistic philosophy also was gaining ground. The human potential movement was based on the notion that people could tap into their unused abilities to attain “self-actualization.” The Bay Area became a hub for both these ideas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This also was the age when high-profile evangelists pushed for expanding human consciousness. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2013/10/timothy-leary-archives/\">The former Harvard professor Timothy Leary\u003c/a> urged young people to take psychedelic drugs and “turn on, tune in and drop out.” Meanwhile, self-educated former car salesman Werner Erhard promoted \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training\">a program of intense seminars called EST\u003c/a>, designed to bring about personal transformation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1967, at the intersection of communes, the human potential movement and the rise of these charismatic gurus, appeared the founder of Morehouse: Victor Baranco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Victor Baranco was one of the teachers who had come up with a philosophy that helped people to self-actualize or reach their human potential,” said Laurie Rivlin-Heller, who knew Baranco in the 1970s when she lived in Morehouse residences in Oakland and Rohnert Park. \u003ca href=\"https://communalstudies.org/product/communal-societies-vol-25-2005/\">She later wrote her master’s thesis on the group\u003c/a>, which was initially called the \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandmorehouse.com/\">Institute of Human Abilities\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco was a former appliance salesman now selling a new philosophy, in which the goal, broadly speaking, was to remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was good at reeling people into his orbit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You would participate in a course in which he was the teacher,” Rivlin-Heller said. “And he would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing. Not only did he listen, but he looked and he could assess on the basis of your question and maybe a couple of follow-up questions where you were coming from. It was a unique gift.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco’s group made money by selling courses and renovating dilapidated houses he’d purchased. The Morehouse concept was so successful that at one point it had dozens of affiliates around the country, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/sgt-bilko-meets-the-new-culture-182617/\">Rolling Stone reported\u003c/a> that people in Berkeley were calling the founder “the Colonel Sanders of the commune scene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That 1971 article was less than complimentary, portraying Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo surrounded by obsequious devotees who paid money to hear him deliver homespun homilies. Baranco was also quoted as acknowledging he’d been a “hustler” who’d made “big money in shady ways. Not necessarily illegal, but shady,” including selling phony diamond rings and watches. The article later appeared in a book called “Mindfuckers” alongside a chapter on Charles Manson — not a good look for any leader of a commune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rivlin-Heller said the article missed the point of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He put everything up front,” she said. “The introductory course to Morehouse is called the ‘Mark Group,’ where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were volunteering, entering into the hustle and participating in it. Those that I know, [they] had a good experience there … and if they didn’t feel they were getting value, they would leave.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another former Morehouse adherent, Rebekah Beneteau, said she took a lot of courses at the Lafayette property in the 1990s and also lived with her then-husband, Marco, in a Yonkers, New York, Morehouse. She described her time there as “a really life-changing experience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I call them the silver-lining people,” Beneteau said, “because their philosophy and approach to life was to always view everything as if it was a gift and their own creation. And how could they use it? How could they view it as already perfect, including the potential for change?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the primary components of the Morehouse philosophy, both Beneateaus said, is that a community runs better when its women are happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau said that while the Morehouses clearly had a money-making component, she never felt they took advantage of her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve actually been affiliated with way more organizations that are way more pushy and suck your money out,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So what’s with the sex?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lafayette Morehouse bills its philosophy as “responsible hedonism.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hedonism is an ethical point of view that has the pursuit of pleasure as the highest goal,” the group writes on its website. “People often think that living pleasurably means that you don’t care about anybody else. Our experience has proven that if you are going to have a pleasurable life, then you have to see to it that others around you live pleasurably too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A big part of Morehouse’s hedonistic doctrine appears to involve having better sex. The group currently has nine sensuality-related \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">courses advertised on its website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11913695\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1296px\">\u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11913695\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png\" alt=\"A screenshot of the nine course titles offered by Lafayette Morehouse related to sensuality.\" width=\"1296\" height=\"412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png 1296w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-800x254.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-1020x324.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-160x51.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1296px) 100vw, 1296px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Current sensuality-related courses offered by Lafayette Morehouse. \u003ccite>(Lafayette Morehouse)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The focus on sex is a reflection of the culture at the time of Morehouse’s founding, said Rivlin-Heller. Baranco, who was in his 30s at the time, saw a way for people his age and older to participate in the sexual revolution happening around them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these different gurus had different hooks,” Rivlin-Heller said. “Ram Dass did meditation and chanting and Buddhism. Esalen had humanistic psychology. So the sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One notorious Morehouse event was a \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/first-demo.html\">public demonstration\u003c/a> in 1976 of what the group claimed was a woman having a three-hour orgasm. (No, I couldn’t find any video.) And Baranco took advantage of California’s loose postsecondary education standards to turn the Lafayette commune into “More University,” which offered Ph.D.s in the humanities and sensuality, and conducted what the organization said was sexual research. In 1992, The San Francisco Chronicle reported that courses cost as much as $16,800. A 1994 profile of the university in \u003ca href=\"https://docplayer.net/45093155-Volume-2-no-7-march-1994-2-50.html\">the conservative magazine Heterodoxy\u003c/a> described a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/31/us/california-trying-to-close-worthless-diploma-schools.html\">less than rigorous academic program\u003c/a>, to put it mildly, as well as some alleged troubling sexual incidents, though no arrests or charges were ever made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s and ’90s, Baranco unsuccessfully sued The Chronicle and The Contra Costa Times for libel. One court decision is not-safe-for-work reading: According to the court, More University’s Advanced Sensuality class included research in “engorgement, lubrication, seminal secretion.” It said one of the goals of the course was to “make friends with another crotch.” The university was forced to shut down in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau, at least, believes Morehouse did legitimate sexual research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are many people now who are teaching [the one-hour orgasm] who either attribute it to them or not,” she said. “They have a technique that allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a whole hour?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=314&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Flafayette.morehouse%2Fvideos%2F2506462923003338%2F&show_text=false&width=560&t=0\" width=\"560\" height=\"314\" style=\"border:none;overflow:hidden\" scrolling=\"no\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>A Facebook Live video from Lafayette Morehouse discussing their approach to communal living and COVID-19.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Fear of what’s different\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1970s into the early 1990s, Lafayette Morehouse engaged in an ongoing battle with the county and neighbors over zoning issues and code violations, including allowing unhoused people to live on the property in tents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tim Miller, the historian of intentional communities, said it’s not uncommon for communes to be unpopular among local residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a very typical thing that’s happened throughout history,” he said. “There seems to be an instinctive fear among a lot of people of anything that’s new or different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miller said the remaining ’60s-era communes are “often quite quiet. They don’t want to call attention to themselves, even though … they get along with their neighbors and all of that. [But] the big problem they have over and over are zoning laws [that] often forbid communal living.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surviving the decades\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Baranco died in Hawaii in 2002, and since then Lafayette Morehouse has been mostly free of controversy. The great swell of ’60s-era communes eventually dissipated, leaving only a small fraction of surviving groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A friend of mine, who still lives on one of the ’60s-era communes, said when their community had a great out-migration in the ’80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all,” said Miller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say why Morehouse has outlasted its peers, but Rebekah Beneteau said \u003ca href=\"https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/how-to-free-love-commune-neil-strauss-2018-6/\">Morehouse has figured out how to make group living work\u003c/a>. During the coronavirus pandemic, \u003ca href=\"https://fb.watch/cNfpmcgSuM/\">the group held a webcast\u003c/a> where they described the difficulty of living in a close community with so many people during a pandemic. But true to their “silver lining” philosophy, they were looking for ways the experience could actually enhance their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not a bad goal, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today we’re going to venture back to the 1960s and 70s, when the Bay Area was a center for many social movements.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People took to the streets to protest the Vietnam War …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound pop of protest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Black Panther Party formed in response to police brutality against Black people …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Speech: We are talking about the survival of Black people, nothing else…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Women were frustrated by the gender inequality they faced daily … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chanting: Free our sisters, free ourselves\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And a lot of people started to think differently about how they wanted to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As many as a million Americans decided to join communes, group living situations, often with shared chores and finances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now the vast majority of those intentional communities that formed in the 60s and 70s have disappeared. But not all of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reporter Jon Brooks went looking for one that survived in the suburbs of Contra Costa County, a group that has been steeped in mystery and sometimes controversy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One note for listeners: we do talk about sex in this episode. It first aired in 2022. Here’s Jon… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you were a high school kid growing up in the Walnut Creek area back in the 1990s, there wasn’t a lot to do. That’s one reason why Sabrina McQueen has never forgotten the big purple car she saw driving around town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’d drop people off at the grocery store. So it’s like, well, what’s that? And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the purple people.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Purple people. That is fun to say. Say it once, you’re probably gonna want to say it again. Purple people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who could they possibly be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s what Sabrina wants to know. She remembers in the seventh grade she went with a friend to pick someone up who lived on the purple people’s property…a com pound on some 20-plus acres. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was so excited that I thought I was going to go inside and be able to see it. And then we got just to the gate, and that was it. You can’t get past the gate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What exactly was going on in there? It’s one of those lingering mysteries to people who live in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, here we should tell you, the Purple People aren’t really called the Purple People. (I know, rats.) That is just what locals call them. Why? Because they’re known to drive around in purple vehicles and live in purple-painted houses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know the official name of the group?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> No, I don’t. That’s why I asked this question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their real name is Lafayette Morehouse. And they are one of a very small fraction of 1960s-era communes that survive to this day. Lafayette Morehouse was so mysterious to locals like Sabrina, she and her friends on weekends would drive to this one lookout point to see if they could catch a glimpse of the property. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would be kind of like, Hey, what do you guys want to go do tonight? It’s like, Oh, you guys want to go like, check out the purple people? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s driving me to that spot now. But she’s having a hard time finding it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, here’s where we’re going to turn. But it has been 30 years\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Excuse me, we’re looking for the Purple People campus … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Purple people campus? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sorry, no idea.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You never heard that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you think they don’t know for real?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lafayette Morehouse has a colorful history, which we’re going to get into in a moment, but in recent decades it’s been quiet. Three years ago, the group was briefly in the news after someone left racist graffiti on their buildings. Morehouse’s reaction to the media at the time: No comment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Naturally, I wanted very much to talk to the group, but they declined multiple interview requests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I did find three former Morehouse members who did want to talk. Like Rebekah Beneteau. She took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 1990s. The group was so successful at attracting members, Morehouse branches sprang up around the country. Beneteau says she lived for six years in one of the sister Morehouse communes in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really the core of Morehouse’s philosophy is that life is better lived together and that we disrupted that in the 50s by shuttling every woman, every couple, off into their own houses. And then we invented Valium because there were all these women alone at home going nuts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1960s and 70s a lot of people were looking for new ways to live more fulfilling lives, at least more fulfilling than their parents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One way to escape the prescribed path laid out by society – school, job, marriage, kids, death – was to live together in groups organized around political, religious, or environmental ideals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hundreds of thousands, up to a million, people tried their hand at communal living, says professor Tim Miller, an expert on intentional communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tim Miller:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Starting in 1965, I think you can date it that precisely. there was a whole new wave of communities came along… (4:00) I would say by and large these new young people’s communities were not very popular with mainstream society, and I would say that’s a very typical thing. I think it’s just that fear of what’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1970s ..and all the way through the 90s, Morehouse and Contra Costa County also battled over zoning issues and code violations … skirmishes that were frequently reported in the news. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Psychedelic music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The 1960s and 70s were also the age of … the guru. Like Timothy Leary – who urged people to take psychedelic drugs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Leary: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Turn on, tune in, and drop out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Werner Erhard, creator of something called E-S-T, or EST. This was a program of intense seminars supposedly leading to personal transformation. What Erhard was prescribing was… um, I don’t know…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Werner Erhard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are…that love is attention. People are…that love is attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of these different gurus had different hooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Laurie Rivlin Heller. In the early ‘70s she dropped out of college and moved to the Bay Area. Here, she got interested in the human potential movement – the idea that people could tap into their unused abilities to reach their full potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s when she discovered someone named \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We’ve got to pause for a quick break. When we return … we get to know Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laurie Rivlin Heller met Victor Baranco in the early 70s, and found herself drawn to him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Berkeley-born Baranco was the founder of Morehouse, which had branches in a few Bay Area cities. Baranco had a successful career as an appliance salesman. But with Morehouse, he was offering something more than consumer goods. He was selling a new philosophy. The goal…remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">good\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The fact that he could so clearly understand who I was and where I was coming from. And he did that to everybody. It was a unique gift. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco called his program for living “responsible hedonism.” That means creating a pleasurable life for not only yourself, but for others. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The responsible part\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was that you take responsibility for your life and your action. Things could change, but it was up to you to do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hedonism part? That’s where the “more” in Mor ehouse comes in. And a lot of it has to do with … you guessed it … or you didn’t, because this is public media: sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco. There were young people in this time period who were experiencing sexuality in a way that hadn’t been done previously. And there were older people who wanted a piece of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">According to former members, one of the tenets of Baranco’s teaching was that a community functioned better when the women were happy, sexually and otherwise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group is famous for a 1976 demonstration of a woman reportedly having a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">3-hour\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> orgasm. Yes I said what I said. I spent a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> of time looking for that tape. Didn’t find it. But I did find some current Morehouse YouTube videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the fundamentals of sensuality course, we discuss the nature of orgasm. And in the afternoon, there’s a live demonstration of a woman in orgasm for an hour that will really blow your mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Beneteau…the woman who lived in a Morehouse commune in New York… was at first put off by the emphasis on sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They had a class where a woman was demonstrating being in orgasm for an hour. I thought that was extremely freaky. I didn’t want anything to do with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she did like the group’s positive outlook and focus on people’s ability to change. Now, she offers sex and intimacy coaching. And, she changed her mind about the one-hour orgasm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They have a technique that also allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 30:05 Can you really have a one-hour orgasm?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mm, 27 minutes. Pretty, pretty good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this focus on sex has led to a certain reputation for Morehouse among its neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a couple of rumors, one that it was a sex cult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, the group has definitely at times been labeled a sex cult. So much so they even have a question on their F-A-Q page … “Are you a sex cult?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I mean, that’s complete nonsense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Marco Beneteau. He and Rebekah used to be married. He also took a lot of Morehouse courses. Then the two of them started their own commune in Philadelphia. Now he lives on a commune in Wyoming. So the man knows his communes. He says Morehouse didn’t have any of the characteristics people associate with cults.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion. You know, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives, that, you know, none of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If Morehouse isn’t a cult, it has been controversial. In 1971, Rolling Stone published a pretty unflattering portrait of the group – complete with Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo. The article implied Baranco was making a lot of money off group members. But Laurie Rivlin Heller says there was nothing devious going on. Self-interest was an open part of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would say that he put everything up front. The introductory course to Morehouse is called the Mark Group, where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were voluntarily entering into the hustle and participating in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Still, that Rolling Stone article later appeared in a book alongside a chapter on Charles Manson. Not a good look for any leader of a commune. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Using classical educational modes, More university is dedicated to the full realization of human potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco later turned Lafayette Morehouse into More University. More University, more controversy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university offered PhDs in the humanities and of course, sensuality, including sexual research. In 1992, the San Francisco Chronicle reported at least one course cost almost 17-thousand dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 80s and 90s Baranco sued the Chronicle and the Contra Costa Times for libel. (Hashtag please don’t sue \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">us\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.) The court threw those lawsuits out. One of the decisions is not-safe-for-work reading. According to the court, a goal of More University’s Advanced Sensuality class was to “make friends with another crotch.” Which, if you’re listening Morehouse, would be an awesome bumper sticker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university shut down in the mid-90s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco died in 2002 at the age of 68. And, eventually, the great majority of ‘60s communes faded away. Professor Timothy Miller:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Miller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Friend of mine, who still lives on one of the 60s era communes, said when their community had a great outmigration in the 80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Morehouse has survived. The decades come, the decades go, and they’re still doing their thing – whatever it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Back in the car with Sabrina, we wandered around trying to find that one view of the campus she remembers. We kept taking wrong turns, going back over the same streets. And then… …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a purple house.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s excited. She’s a Purple People fan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wonder if that belongs to… Oh, yeah, I mean, that is, does that look like it’s purple?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> property, with tennis courts and everything. But really, there’s not much to see and the group does have a right to its privacy. Sabrina, I think, is viewing it through the eyes of her high school years, when there was this mysterious aura around this counterculture group … \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in her own suburban home town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wanted to know what she thinks of the Purple People now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is kind of interesting that this has survived so long, which I think is so amazing. I mean, hey, if that’s what they want to do and they’re peaceful and they are able to be part of our community, it sounds like they’re having fun. So good for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m a reporter. It’s my job to be skeptical. But I will say one thing. At the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, Lafayette Morehouse went live over Facebook. They were definitely taking safety seriously. But, their aim wasn’t just to survive COVID, they said that wasn’t a high enough goal. They wanted to use the experience as a way to make their lives even better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If life hands you really sour lemons, make even sweeter lemonade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I got to admit, I’m still thinking about that one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was reporter Jon Brooks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you like Bay Curious, I’ve got a request. Please tell your podcast listening friends about the show. We all like a good recommendation…help us grow!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And as always, consider donating to help sustain the work we do on Bay Curious. More info at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Brendan Willard and Sebastian Miño-Bucheli also helped on this episode. We get extra support from: Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "meet-the-around-the-clock-mechanics-keeping-golden-gate-ferries-moving",
"title": "Meet the Around-the-Clock Mechanics Keeping Golden Gate Ferries Moving",
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"headTitle": "Meet the Around-the-Clock Mechanics Keeping Golden Gate Ferries Moving | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kristen Breck remembers sitting in traffic on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/richmond\">Richmond\u003c/a> Bridge and looking out on the water. She spotted a ferry coming in from Vallejo. Then she saw another one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just thought, they’re so beautiful,” she said. “What happens if they get injured? Where do they go? Who is taking care of them?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is home to two major public ferry agencies: SF Bay Ferry, serving the East Bay, and Golden Gate Ferry, which serves the North Bay. Last year, both agencies combined carried about 4 million passengers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ferries have long been an important mode of transportation in the region. Before the late 1930s, ferries were the primary way people got across the bay. But after the Bay and Golden Gate Bridges were constructed in 1936 and 1937, respectively, ferry ridership dwindled to “extinction levels,” according to Tom Hall, director of operations and customer experience at SF Bay Ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While a number of smaller companies continued to ferry people across the bay, the region went without a major ferry agency for decades. In 1970, Golden Gate Ferry began service to the North Bay as a way to ease congestion on the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 1989, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1949362/how-loma-prieta-changed-earthquake-science-building-codes-and-the-bay-area\">Loma Prieta earthquake\u003c/a> hit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 6.9 magnitude earthquake, in which \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2014/3092/pdf/fs2014-3092.pdf\">63 people died\u003c/a> and more than 3,700 were injured, collapsed a section of the Bay Bridge. It was unusable for about a month. Hall said that, after the disaster, officials realized they needed an alternative way to evacuate the city in cases of emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078039\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078039\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers exit from the Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>State and local officials started to plan for a ferry service to serve the East Bay. The Water Emergency Transportation Authority (WETA) was formed in 2007, and four years later, it started operating SF Bay Ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our core mission is emergency water transit in the event of a natural disaster or another event that disrupts the existing transportation system in the Bay Area,” Hall said. “Since we have all the boats and terminals to be ready for that, we might as well moonlight as a ferry operator in the interim.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Keeping the ferries running\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Imagine driving your vehicle to and from work all day long and doing it full speed — you’re probably going to have a decent amount of maintenance that needs to be required to keep your car running,” said Mike Hoffman, deputy general manager for Golden Gate Ferry. “It’s no different for our ferry vessels.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Agencies send most ferries to maintenance shops located locally for quick fixes. Golden Gate Ferry’s maintenance shop, at the Larkspur terminal, handles everything from replacing lightbulbs to rebuilding engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078030\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078030\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mike Hoffman, the deputy general manager for Golden Gate Ferry, poses for a portrait at the shop where ferry machinery is maintained at the Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>To avoid service delays, mechanics in groups of four work in shifts around the clock, seven days a week, to make sure the seven Golden Gate ferries are running smoothly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Back in 2001, there was a tech boom going on and a lot of friends and family were getting into the tech industry,” said Ray Garibaldi, who has worked as a ferry mechanic for the Golden Gate Transportation District since 2001. “I decided to stick with mechanical welding and fabricating. And it’s been a great career for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said every day brings a new problem to solve. One day, he might be making replacement parts and welding them in the metal shop. Other days, he is repairing water jets when they get clogged with fishing line and debris. If there are problems with the main engine, he will spend days in the hot engine room repairing the control system.[aside postID=news_12078602 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/08/20241204-BART-JY-002_qed.jpg']Meanwhile, across the bay, SF Bay Ferry operates 11 vessels, sailing from the San Francisco Ferry Building to several destinations in the East Bay, including Oakland, Richmond and Vallejo. For everyday maintenance, vessels are sent to decommissioned military bases in Alameda and Mare Island in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every two years, the U.S. Coast Guard inspects ferries run by both agencies to make sure they are up to code. For those inspections, the ferries are sent to the decommissioned military bases so they can be hoisted out of the water — or “dry docked” — if needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inspectors will look for signs of weakness in the hull of the vessel or any small water intrusions that might be on the surface of the vessel. They will also ride with crews to make sure safety measures are followed properly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ferries are dry-docked again every five or six years so crews can do more extensive repairs, including replacing carpets, repairing damaged seats and changing out older technology for updated systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To comply with California’s emissions standards, ferries are often decommissioned after 25 years. But Hall said the agencies often sell vessels to other states whose standards are less strict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a couple of boats in Alaska that are serving as whale watching boats,” Hall said. “They always seem to have a second life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The future of Bay Area ferry service\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ferry operators, like other public transportation agencies, struggled during the coronavirus pandemic and mandatory shelter-in-place orders. SF Bay Ferry’s ridership dropped to 6% of its normal capacity, Hall said. They immediately reduced service to two routes built around essential workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people came back to work, different commuting patterns emerged. Before the pandemic, the agency could count on passengers five days a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078036\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078036\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Napa ferry is stationed at a servicing dock at Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But after the pandemic, with many people working from home at least some of the time, ridership has been less predictable. Hall said one of the most surprising changes has been a boost in weekend ridership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were ready to go back out,” he said. “I think the fact that we have outdoor seating on all of the ferries helped us a ton because if you were uncomfortable being in an enclosed area with other people that you didn’t know, you [could] sit outside.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As companies slowly called employees back into the office, the agency saw an uptick in ridership. Now, with the trend towards more weekend riding continuing, along with some weekday commuting, the agency is seeing more riders than it ever has. In May of 2026, it \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscobayferry.com/san-francisco-bay-ferry-sets-another-ridership-record-in-may/\">beat its all-time ridership\u003c/a> record for the third month in a row.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078040\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078040\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A replacement water jet sits on a servicing dock at Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’re on track to have our all-time best year in 2026, if things keep going the way they do,” Hall said. “That’s been gratifying to see people come back to the ferries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ferry lovers will be excited to know that SF Bay Ferry someday hopes to expand its service to Treasure Island, Mission Bay, Berkeley and Redwood City. However, that expansion probably won’t happen anytime soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More immediately, riders of the Golden Gate ferries will start seeing new vessels in the rotation. Next year, the agency plans to start replacing its fleet, and the new boats will be more fuel efficient and will have elevators and more bike parking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds water lapping\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Every time I ride a ferry across San Francisco Bay I feel a little fizz of excitement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ferry engine sounds along with lapping water\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Part of me knows that ferries are practical. A way a lot of people commute to work. But I mean look around – it’s hard not to get caught up in the romance of being on the water in such a gorgeous place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people even ride them just for fun. Like Peggy Gallagher who was riding the Larkspur ferry with her sister, in from out of town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peggy Gallegher: \u003c/strong>I mean, we live in the Bay Area, the most beautiful area in the world. And you just kind of forget your troubles because everywhere you look is just another view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>From the deck of the ferry there’s a great view of downtown San Francisco, Alcatraz and Angel Island, the Golden Gate Bridge…even Mount Tam. When you’re riding one, you can really appreciate the bay itself…the water at the heart of our region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristen Breck: \u003c/strong>I think ferries really are emblematic of where we live and I love where we live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Kristen Breck, our question asker today, doesn’t get to ride ferries as often as she’d like. But she sees them when she’s driving around. One day she was on the Richmond bridge looking out over the water when she saw a Vallejo ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristen Breck: \u003c/strong>And I just thought, there’s just so beautiful. What happens if they get injured? I’d like to know how and where the Golden Gate ferries around the bay are serviced and fixed. What does it take to fix a ferry? Where does that work get done, and who does it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ferries have long been an important mode of transportation in our region. Before the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges were built in the 1930s, ferries were the primary way to get to and from The City from the North and East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, more people drive than take ferries of course, but we still have two major public ferry services that together carry about 3 to 4 million passengers a year. SF Bay Ferry services the East Bay and Golden Gate Ferries serve the North Bay. KQED’s housing and transportation reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi checked in with both ferry agencies about how they manage and repair their vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of ferry commuters boarding\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> I join a group of commuters and tourists headed from the San Francisco Ferry building to Larkspur on a beautiful sunny day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene : \u003c/strong>That was so easy, I could use my clipper card.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>I’m on my way to the maintenance shop housed at the Larkspur Ferry Terminal, where a lot of the Golden Gate Ferries get repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mike Hoffman: \u003c/strong>These ferry vessels go back and forth from San Francisco to Marin County all day long and they go full speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Mike Hoffman is the Deputy General Manager of Golden Gate Ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mike Hoffman: \u003c/strong>So imagine driving your vehicle to and from work all day along and doing it full speed, you’re probably going to have a decent amount of maintenance that needs to be required to keep your car running. It’s no different for our ferry vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>The average ferry has a lifespan of about 25 years. And it’s mechanic Ray Garibaldi’s job to keep them running smoothly throughout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Wow, okay. What is this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Ray and I are looking at a ferry jet that has a fishing line and other debris caught in the rotors. It looks like the metal blade at the bottom of a blender…just much larger. All seven of Golden Gate Ferry’s vessels cycle through this shop at the Larkspur terminal at one time or another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>We can be fabricating parts, welding, rebuilding water jets, working on the main engines, repairing the control systems. So every day is a little bit different.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are big machines all over the place– a bandsaw that cuts metal, a big crane and a huge workbench. The walls are lined with nuts and bolts organized into little cubbies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ray has been a ferry mechanic for the past 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Back in 2001, there was a tech boom going on and a lot of friends and family were getting into the tech industry and I decided to stick with mechanical welding, fabricating, and it’s been a great career for me.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>He and his colleagues at the Larkspur shop handle all the routine maintenance issues that come up. Everything from changing lightbulbs to fixing the main engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the team can’t get a boat running safely, that will cause service delays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>We have three shifts, seven days a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are usually four mechanics on each shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>And each shift kind of does things a little different. You know, day shift takes care of the terminals and rebuilding some of the major components and swing shift starts doing the maintenance and repairs and then graveyard kind of gets scheduled for. Get the boats ready to go out again in the morning if there’s any issues that need to be taken care of.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Ray says, when he travels on a ferry now, he pays attention in a different way..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Boats are like a big tuning fork you could have you know a problem in one part of the boat and the sound will travel through the boat and end up in a different spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>In addition to these routine maintenance needs, every ferry boat goes through inspections every 2-3 years…and major refurbishments every 5-6 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on that after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve learned what happens when one of our ferries needs day to day repairs, but where do they go when they need more intense repairs? KQED reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi takes us into a ferry’s engine room to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Look closely next time you’re on a ferry, and you might notice a hatch on the floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, this is where we’re going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Ray Garibaldi leads me down a narrow ladder into the belly of the vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> Okay, so, uh, where, where are we, Ray?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Oh, we’re in the main engine room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> Oh man, okay, we’re like basically surrounded by pipes and ducts and nice and toasty in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it always stays warm in the engine room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> When things break in this room, Ray is looking at a longer repair. Changing fuel pumps and other machinery can be week-long fixes. It’s warm in here… I’m starting to sweat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> I would imagine if it’s like cold outside then it would be really nice to work in the engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Every two years, the U.S. Coast Guard inspects the engine room to make sure everything is up to code. They also look for signs of weakness in the hull of the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tom Hall is the Director of Operations and Customer Experience of SF Bay Ferry serving the East Bay. He explains the aluminum boats are light and strong, but susceptible to water damage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>So what they’re inspecting for is any intrusions, which kind of looks like little holes cropping up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>If they find any, those get patched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tom says, after the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges were built, ferry ridership dropped dramatically. But when the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake damaged the Bay Bridge, lawmakers realized people needed an alternative way to evacuate in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately following the earthquake, smaller ferry services picked up the slack. And in 2011, SF Bay Ferry was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>Our core mission is emergency water transit in the event of a natural disaster or another event that disrupts the existing transportation system in the Bay area. Since we have all the boats and terminals to be ready for that, we might as well, you known, moonlight as a ferry operator in the interim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It’s now grown to be the largest ferry operator in the region, carrying three quarters of passengers on its routes to San Francisco, South San Francisco,Vallejo, Richmond, Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every five or six years, all ferries need a little bit of extra maintenance love. That means using a lift to hoist the vessel out of the water. Then, maintenance crews get to work replacing stuff like the carpets, electronics and other technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Much of that more intensive maintenance also happens here in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>At our two maintenance facilities, we have one in Alameda, our Central Bay facility, and the second one is in Vallejo on Mare Island. They’re both on decommissioned military bases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>After 25 years of service, vessels often have to be decommissioned because they no longer meet state emissions standards. So, they get sold to other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: We have a couple of boats in Alaska that are serving as whale watching boats and so yeah, they always seem to have a second life.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music transition\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I know a lot more about how ferries get fixed, Adhiti, but I’m wondering about their future. So many transit agencies have really been struggling these past few years. So, how is the ferry system doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> SF Bay Ferry is actually seeing more people use its service now than it did before the pandemic. But like other transit agencies, they took a huge hit when commuters were told to stay home and shelter in place. Tom Hall said, when people started coming back, they saw different patterns emerging. With people working from home some days of the week, they can’t rely on consistent weekday ridership. But–\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen a tremendous amount of growth in our weekend ridership, which is why we have so much weekend service now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Even though ridership is up now, they haven’t fully recovered. Both ferry services get some money from bridge tolls and local governments, but both still rely on fares. In fact, there’s a bond initiative making its way to the November ballot which could provide funding for BART and other transit agencies. If it passes, the two ferry agencies could get some money out of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Since people really like ferries, we often get questions about whether service will expand in the future. Can you tell us anything about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Well, SF Bay Ferry, which serves the East Bay, has long wanted to expand its service to Treasure Island and Mission Bay. And eventually, it could even run vessels to Berkeley and Redwood City too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But something that’s happening sooner– Golden Gate Ferry, which operates in the North Bay, is slowly replacing their fleet of vessels with brand new ships, thanks to some federal dollars that came through. The first vessel hits the water next year. The new ships will have elevators, which will make the ships more accessible. They’ll also be more fuel efficient, and will have more bike parking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Adhiti Bandlamudi covers housing and transit for KQED. Thanks so much for diving into this topic!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> My pleasure! It was a wild, but mostly pleasant ride!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Just like the ferries – KQED also needs some funding! Help us out by becoming a sustaining member. It’s an ongoing monthly donation that happens automatically – and you can change or cancel at any time. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. Thanks!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kristen Breck remembers sitting in traffic on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/richmond\">Richmond\u003c/a> Bridge and looking out on the water. She spotted a ferry coming in from Vallejo. Then she saw another one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I just thought, they’re so beautiful,” she said. “What happens if they get injured? Where do they go? Who is taking care of them?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Bay Area is home to two major public ferry agencies: SF Bay Ferry, serving the East Bay, and Golden Gate Ferry, which serves the North Bay. Last year, both agencies combined carried about 4 million passengers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ferries have long been an important mode of transportation in the region. Before the late 1930s, ferries were the primary way people got across the bay. But after the Bay and Golden Gate Bridges were constructed in 1936 and 1937, respectively, ferry ridership dwindled to “extinction levels,” according to Tom Hall, director of operations and customer experience at SF Bay Ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While a number of smaller companies continued to ferry people across the bay, the region went without a major ferry agency for decades. In 1970, Golden Gate Ferry began service to the North Bay as a way to ease congestion on the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then, in 1989, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/science/1949362/how-loma-prieta-changed-earthquake-science-building-codes-and-the-bay-area\">Loma Prieta earthquake\u003c/a> hit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The 6.9 magnitude earthquake, in which \u003ca href=\"https://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2014/3092/pdf/fs2014-3092.pdf\">63 people died\u003c/a> and more than 3,700 were injured, collapsed a section of the Bay Bridge. It was unusable for about a month. Hall said that, after the disaster, officials realized they needed an alternative way to evacuate the city in cases of emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078039\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078039\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00673_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Passengers exit from the Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>State and local officials started to plan for a ferry service to serve the East Bay. The Water Emergency Transportation Authority (WETA) was formed in 2007, and four years later, it started operating SF Bay Ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our core mission is emergency water transit in the event of a natural disaster or another event that disrupts the existing transportation system in the Bay Area,” Hall said. “Since we have all the boats and terminals to be ready for that, we might as well moonlight as a ferry operator in the interim.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Keeping the ferries running\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“Imagine driving your vehicle to and from work all day long and doing it full speed — you’re probably going to have a decent amount of maintenance that needs to be required to keep your car running,” said Mike Hoffman, deputy general manager for Golden Gate Ferry. “It’s no different for our ferry vessels.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Agencies send most ferries to maintenance shops located locally for quick fixes. Golden Gate Ferry’s maintenance shop, at the Larkspur terminal, handles everything from replacing lightbulbs to rebuilding engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078030\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078030\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00168_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mike Hoffman, the deputy general manager for Golden Gate Ferry, poses for a portrait at the shop where ferry machinery is maintained at the Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>To avoid service delays, mechanics in groups of four work in shifts around the clock, seven days a week, to make sure the seven Golden Gate ferries are running smoothly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Back in 2001, there was a tech boom going on and a lot of friends and family were getting into the tech industry,” said Ray Garibaldi, who has worked as a ferry mechanic for the Golden Gate Transportation District since 2001. “I decided to stick with mechanical welding and fabricating. And it’s been a great career for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said every day brings a new problem to solve. One day, he might be making replacement parts and welding them in the metal shop. Other days, he is repairing water jets when they get clogged with fishing line and debris. If there are problems with the main engine, he will spend days in the hot engine room repairing the control system.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>Meanwhile, across the bay, SF Bay Ferry operates 11 vessels, sailing from the San Francisco Ferry Building to several destinations in the East Bay, including Oakland, Richmond and Vallejo. For everyday maintenance, vessels are sent to decommissioned military bases in Alameda and Mare Island in Vallejo.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every two years, the U.S. Coast Guard inspects ferries run by both agencies to make sure they are up to code. For those inspections, the ferries are sent to the decommissioned military bases so they can be hoisted out of the water — or “dry docked” — if needed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inspectors will look for signs of weakness in the hull of the vessel or any small water intrusions that might be on the surface of the vessel. They will also ride with crews to make sure safety measures are followed properly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ferries are dry-docked again every five or six years so crews can do more extensive repairs, including replacing carpets, repairing damaged seats and changing out older technology for updated systems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>To comply with California’s emissions standards, ferries are often decommissioned after 25 years. But Hall said the agencies often sell vessels to other states whose standards are less strict.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We have a couple of boats in Alaska that are serving as whale watching boats,” Hall said. “They always seem to have a second life.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The future of Bay Area ferry service\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ferry operators, like other public transportation agencies, struggled during the coronavirus pandemic and mandatory shelter-in-place orders. SF Bay Ferry’s ridership dropped to 6% of its normal capacity, Hall said. They immediately reduced service to two routes built around essential workers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When people came back to work, different commuting patterns emerged. Before the pandemic, the agency could count on passengers five days a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078036\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078036\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00390_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The Napa ferry is stationed at a servicing dock at Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But after the pandemic, with many people working from home at least some of the time, ridership has been less predictable. Hall said one of the most surprising changes has been a boost in weekend ridership.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People were ready to go back out,” he said. “I think the fact that we have outdoor seating on all of the ferries helped us a ton because if you were uncomfortable being in an enclosed area with other people that you didn’t know, you [could] sit outside.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As companies slowly called employees back into the office, the agency saw an uptick in ridership. Now, with the trend towards more weekend riding continuing, along with some weekday commuting, the agency is seeing more riders than it ever has. In May of 2026, it \u003ca href=\"https://sanfranciscobayferry.com/san-francisco-bay-ferry-sets-another-ridership-record-in-may/\">beat its all-time ridership\u003c/a> record for the third month in a row.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12078040\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12078040\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/03/260324-BAYCURIOUSFERRY00383_TV-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A replacement water jet sits on a servicing dock at Larkspur Ferry Terminal in Larkspur on March 24, 2026. \u003ccite>(Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“We’re on track to have our all-time best year in 2026, if things keep going the way they do,” Hall said. “That’s been gratifying to see people come back to the ferries.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ferry lovers will be excited to know that SF Bay Ferry someday hopes to expand its service to Treasure Island, Mission Bay, Berkeley and Redwood City. However, that expansion probably won’t happen anytime soon.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>More immediately, riders of the Golden Gate ferries will start seeing new vessels in the rotation. Next year, the agency plans to start replacing its fleet, and the new boats will be more fuel efficient and will have elevators and more bike parking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds water lapping\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Every time I ride a ferry across San Francisco Bay I feel a little fizz of excitement.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Ferry engine sounds along with lapping water\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Part of me knows that ferries are practical. A way a lot of people commute to work. But I mean look around – it’s hard not to get caught up in the romance of being on the water in such a gorgeous place.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some people even ride them just for fun. Like Peggy Gallagher who was riding the Larkspur ferry with her sister, in from out of town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peggy Gallegher: \u003c/strong>I mean, we live in the Bay Area, the most beautiful area in the world. And you just kind of forget your troubles because everywhere you look is just another view.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>From the deck of the ferry there’s a great view of downtown San Francisco, Alcatraz and Angel Island, the Golden Gate Bridge…even Mount Tam. When you’re riding one, you can really appreciate the bay itself…the water at the heart of our region.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristen Breck: \u003c/strong>I think ferries really are emblematic of where we live and I love where we live.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Kristen Breck, our question asker today, doesn’t get to ride ferries as often as she’d like. But she sees them when she’s driving around. One day she was on the Richmond bridge looking out over the water when she saw a Vallejo ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kristen Breck: \u003c/strong>And I just thought, there’s just so beautiful. What happens if they get injured? I’d like to know how and where the Golden Gate ferries around the bay are serviced and fixed. What does it take to fix a ferry? Where does that work get done, and who does it?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Ferries have long been an important mode of transportation in our region. Before the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges were built in the 1930s, ferries were the primary way to get to and from The City from the North and East Bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, more people drive than take ferries of course, but we still have two major public ferry services that together carry about 3 to 4 million passengers a year. SF Bay Ferry services the East Bay and Golden Gate Ferries serve the North Bay. KQED’s housing and transportation reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi checked in with both ferry agencies about how they manage and repair their vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of ferry commuters boarding\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> I join a group of commuters and tourists headed from the San Francisco Ferry building to Larkspur on a beautiful sunny day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene : \u003c/strong>That was so easy, I could use my clipper card.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>I’m on my way to the maintenance shop housed at the Larkspur Ferry Terminal, where a lot of the Golden Gate Ferries get repairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mike Hoffman: \u003c/strong>These ferry vessels go back and forth from San Francisco to Marin County all day long and they go full speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Mike Hoffman is the Deputy General Manager of Golden Gate Ferry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mike Hoffman: \u003c/strong>So imagine driving your vehicle to and from work all day along and doing it full speed, you’re probably going to have a decent amount of maintenance that needs to be required to keep your car running. It’s no different for our ferry vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>The average ferry has a lifespan of about 25 years. And it’s mechanic Ray Garibaldi’s job to keep them running smoothly throughout.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Wow, okay. What is this?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Ray and I are looking at a ferry jet that has a fishing line and other debris caught in the rotors. It looks like the metal blade at the bottom of a blender…just much larger. All seven of Golden Gate Ferry’s vessels cycle through this shop at the Larkspur terminal at one time or another.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>We can be fabricating parts, welding, rebuilding water jets, working on the main engines, repairing the control systems. So every day is a little bit different.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are big machines all over the place– a bandsaw that cuts metal, a big crane and a huge workbench. The walls are lined with nuts and bolts organized into little cubbies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ray has been a ferry mechanic for the past 25 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Back in 2001, there was a tech boom going on and a lot of friends and family were getting into the tech industry and I decided to stick with mechanical welding, fabricating, and it’s been a great career for me.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>He and his colleagues at the Larkspur shop handle all the routine maintenance issues that come up. Everything from changing lightbulbs to fixing the main engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If the team can’t get a boat running safely, that will cause service delays.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>We have three shifts, seven days a week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>There are usually four mechanics on each shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>And each shift kind of does things a little different. You know, day shift takes care of the terminals and rebuilding some of the major components and swing shift starts doing the maintenance and repairs and then graveyard kind of gets scheduled for. Get the boats ready to go out again in the morning if there’s any issues that need to be taken care of.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Ray says, when he travels on a ferry now, he pays attention in a different way..\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Boats are like a big tuning fork you could have you know a problem in one part of the boat and the sound will travel through the boat and end up in a different spot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>In addition to these routine maintenance needs, every ferry boat goes through inspections every 2-3 years…and major refurbishments every 5-6 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on that after this quick break.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ve learned what happens when one of our ferries needs day to day repairs, but where do they go when they need more intense repairs? KQED reporter Adhiti Bandlamudi takes us into a ferry’s engine room to find out.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Look closely next time you’re on a ferry, and you might notice a hatch on the floor.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, this is where we’re going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Ray Garibaldi leads me down a narrow ladder into the belly of the vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> Okay, so, uh, where, where are we, Ray?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Oh, we’re in the main engine room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> Oh man, okay, we’re like basically surrounded by pipes and ducts and nice and toasty in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it always stays warm in the engine room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> When things break in this room, Ray is looking at a longer repair. Changing fuel pumps and other machinery can be week-long fixes. It’s warm in here… I’m starting to sweat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi in scene:\u003c/strong> I would imagine if it’s like cold outside then it would be really nice to work in the engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ray Garibaldi: \u003c/strong>Yes, it is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>Every two years, the U.S. Coast Guard inspects the engine room to make sure everything is up to code. They also look for signs of weakness in the hull of the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tom Hall is the Director of Operations and Customer Experience of SF Bay Ferry serving the East Bay. He explains the aluminum boats are light and strong, but susceptible to water damage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>So what they’re inspecting for is any intrusions, which kind of looks like little holes cropping up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>If they find any, those get patched.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tom says, after the Golden Gate and Bay Bridges were built, ferry ridership dropped dramatically. But when the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake damaged the Bay Bridge, lawmakers realized people needed an alternative way to evacuate in an emergency.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately following the earthquake, smaller ferry services picked up the slack. And in 2011, SF Bay Ferry was born.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>Our core mission is emergency water transit in the event of a natural disaster or another event that disrupts the existing transportation system in the Bay area. Since we have all the boats and terminals to be ready for that, we might as well, you known, moonlight as a ferry operator in the interim.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>It’s now grown to be the largest ferry operator in the region, carrying three quarters of passengers on its routes to San Francisco, South San Francisco,Vallejo, Richmond, Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every five or six years, all ferries need a little bit of extra maintenance love. That means using a lift to hoist the vessel out of the water. Then, maintenance crews get to work replacing stuff like the carpets, electronics and other technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Much of that more intensive maintenance also happens here in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>At our two maintenance facilities, we have one in Alameda, our Central Bay facility, and the second one is in Vallejo on Mare Island. They’re both on decommissioned military bases.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi: \u003c/strong>After 25 years of service, vessels often have to be decommissioned because they no longer meet state emissions standards. So, they get sold to other states.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: We have a couple of boats in Alaska that are serving as whale watching boats and so yeah, they always seem to have a second life.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music transition\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I know a lot more about how ferries get fixed, Adhiti, but I’m wondering about their future. So many transit agencies have really been struggling these past few years. So, how is the ferry system doing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> SF Bay Ferry is actually seeing more people use its service now than it did before the pandemic. But like other transit agencies, they took a huge hit when commuters were told to stay home and shelter in place. Tom Hall said, when people started coming back, they saw different patterns emerging. With people working from home some days of the week, they can’t rely on consistent weekday ridership. But–\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Hall: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen a tremendous amount of growth in our weekend ridership, which is why we have so much weekend service now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Even though ridership is up now, they haven’t fully recovered. Both ferry services get some money from bridge tolls and local governments, but both still rely on fares. In fact, there’s a bond initiative making its way to the November ballot which could provide funding for BART and other transit agencies. If it passes, the two ferry agencies could get some money out of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Since people really like ferries, we often get questions about whether service will expand in the future. Can you tell us anything about that?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> Well, SF Bay Ferry, which serves the East Bay, has long wanted to expand its service to Treasure Island and Mission Bay. And eventually, it could even run vessels to Berkeley and Redwood City too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But something that’s happening sooner– Golden Gate Ferry, which operates in the North Bay, is slowly replacing their fleet of vessels with brand new ships, thanks to some federal dollars that came through. The first vessel hits the water next year. The new ships will have elevators, which will make the ships more accessible. They’ll also be more fuel efficient, and will have more bike parking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Adhiti Bandlamudi covers housing and transit for KQED. Thanks so much for diving into this topic!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Adhiti Bandlamudi:\u003c/strong> My pleasure! It was a wild, but mostly pleasant ride!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Just like the ferries – KQED also needs some funding! Help us out by becoming a sustaining member. It’s an ongoing monthly donation that happens automatically – and you can change or cancel at any time. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. Thanks!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Olivia: Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is a beautiful state with incredible natural scenery. But it can sometimes feel daunting to actually get out and take advantage of all the state has to offer because there are so many other people vying for the same campsites and permits. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973183/want-to-go-camping-near-the-bay-area-this-summer-make-your-reservations-now#:~:text=Camping%20on%20federal%20Forest%20Service%20or%20BLM%20land\">process to reserve campsites\u003c/a> is notoriously cumbersome and favors people who know their plans in advance. But what if you find yourself with a free summer weekend? Dispersed camping might be just the thing, but it’s worth knowing what you’re getting yourself into. We break down the main things to be aware of so that you can have a great time and stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you’re looking for more resources about camping, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s Audience Desk\u003c/a> has a ton of helpful guides:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083697/how-to-find-dispersed-camping-california-near-san-francisco-bay-area-free-campsites-public-lands-national-forests-blm\">Dispersed Camping 101: How to Find Free Campsites Near the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082396/cheap-camping-near-bay-area-checklist-gear-cookware-tent-rental-sleeping-bag-pad\">How Cheaply Can You Camp In the Bay Area Without Sacrificing Comfort?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035515/where-to-go-camping-in-the-south-bay\">Where to Go Camping In the South Bay\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11920867/how-to-find-free-camping-in-californias-national-forests\">How to Find Free Camping in California’s National Forests\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Bay Curious audience has shown us over the years that you all are very interested in camping. In 2017, we did a story about how bots snap up campsites, making it nearly impossible for real humans to click their way into a primo reservation. And you made it one of our most popular stories of the year. Last year, we offered a little update on that story. TLDR, things are better, but still, it’s tough out there. And we offered some tips on how to be a camping reservation making master. This year, we wanted to help you even more by going in depth on how to get out and go camping if you’re maybe not the type of person who could wake up early and make a reservation six months in advance. Or maybe if you feel like being at a campsite that’s a stone’s throw from the next group isn’t quite getting away from it all. Today, we’re talking about dispersed camping. No reservations needed, just show up, set up, and go. Could it be camping at its finest, easiest, truest form, or could it be more than you bargained for? Here to guide us through it all and answer your questions about dispersed camping is KQED’s outdoor reporter, Sarah Wright. Welcome, Sarah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I gotta start by showing my cards here. I have done some dispersed camping myself. For people who have not tried this yet, what is dispersed camping?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so I have also done quite a lot of dispersed camping, most of it backpacking, so hiking out to a secluded spot all by yourself, which I think is like the best way to experience nature, but there’s a way to do that without hiking at all with your car. Dispersed camping is where you are usually going to a federal government wilderness area, there’s no campground, you’re on public land, It’s usually free to camp out there. And it’s sort of like a safari. That’s how Ben Easley, the founder of Overland Trail Guides, described it to me. He runs a website that offers downloadable guides and GPS waypoints for remote camping all over the US.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s still some amazing campgrounds out there, don’t get me wrong, but I think once you get turned on to dispersed camping, you can make better educated decisions on where to camp that are gonna meet your criteria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It sounds like an absolute dream, but there are some drawbacks that people need to understand up front, right? What are those?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because you’re not at a developed campsite, there’s not gonna be any facilities. That means no bathrooms, no running water, often there’s no cell service, there’s trash service either, so you’ll have to pack out everything you bring in. It’s not really a campsite. It’s just a spot where you can set up and you’ll be out there completely on your own. So logistically, you need to be ready for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You’ll still see people when you go to Spurs camping, but once you kind of get the hang of it, even with 40 million people in the state, you can absolutely find locations where you won’t see a neighbor around you if you know where to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But none of these places are particularly close to here. We should also be upfront about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, that’s right. Typically, you can only disperse camp on federal lands. That means you have to get out of our local state parks, our local beaches, where everything’s regulated and developed campsites are the norms. And you have to go to places like Tahoe National Forest or Mendocino, a few hours farther away, but a chance to explore a new wilderness area. How do you find a place to disperse camp? What do you look for? First, I would advise figuring out where you want to go. Do you want be in Redwood Forest? Do you wanna be up in high alpine lakes? You wanna be by the beach? Narrow it down generally to a region and then do your research. There’s a ton of information online. There are lots of YouTube accounts, lots of bloggers who will show you kind of the opportunities in those areas. Your next step is to figure out what agency manages the land that you’re trying to go on. So go to the website of that agency. It’s probably the Bureau of Land Management or the US Forest Service. And it might be as easy as downloading the free maps on that website to figure out where is a road that you can take and where can you disperse camp. The best advice that Ben gave me and that I agree with is to just call up the local ranger station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know people don’t do this anymore, but you’d be amazed how much information you can simply get by just picking up a phone. And sometimes the people that you talk to will tell you their secret spots of places to go check out as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If this is sounding intimidating, but people are still interested, is there sort of a recommendation for where you might get started?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You don’t want to design your own itinerary, you can download some expert resources. So there are free and paid apps that have overlays essentially, so maps that can tell you where the U.S. Forest Service or BLM land is and help you design a route through these lands in order to camp somewhere that’s for sure on public, not private land, which is important. And so some of the paid apps are apps like Onyx or Gaia GPS or The Dirt. And the good thing about these apps is most of them offer like a two-week free promo period. So you can test them out and see if you like them and if they’re helpful before committing. There’s also free apps like Cal Topo. They take a little bit more tinkering and time to get used to, but if you’re someone who’s really into like… Maps and navigating, play around in those and you can even build routes and have them accessible offline while you’re actually camping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And maybe walk me through, what was your experience of going dispersed camping? Like you roll up, what then?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of my favorite things about this first camping is that you have to have a first choice, a second choice, and a third choice, because you don’t know if people are going to be there. So my experience is you roll up and you’re shocked and excited that your first choice is available and hopefully as beautiful as you thought. But you always have to be prepared in the case that someone’s already there. And Ben gave me good advice, you know, if somebody’s in the spot you were hoping to get.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When there’s other room around you, the expectation is that, like, you should respect that somebody got that site before you and you should try to find somewhere else.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My experience in general has been that there’s more than enough space to go around. You can go down the dirt road a couple more miles and find an equally great spot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ll say a lot of the dispersed camping I’ve done has been a little bit more, like, of the dirt bag variety, I would say. So the camp site that we were at wasn’t particularly beautiful, but it was more about proximity to something that was really cool. So we’ve crashed a couple times outside of Yosemite. There’s some forest service land that is not particularly notable, but it’s really about just having a place to sleep so you can wake up early and then get into Yosemite and have a great day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re going to pause for a quick break. More just ahead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some friends of mine went dispersed camping for their very first trip this past weekend. And I was asking them about what questions they were facing as they were sort of getting ready to, you know, embark on this new adventure. And one of their biggest concerns was about water. How do you camp without a clean water source or a spigot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You basically have two options. If the place you’re going, you know, has access to a stream or a river or a lake, you can pack a water filter and just make sure you’re also packing like some sort of receptacle to hold the water in. So I bring these big two, three liter bags. You can bring, you know, those sort of car camping jugs, but if you aren’t sure you are gonna have water, it’s always kind of better to be safe than sorry. Just bring enough. And make sure you have enough to cook. Enough to clean, enough to put out a fire if you create a fire. So just like have extra as insurance. Also if it’s hotter than you think it’s going to be all you have to do is be prepared. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what about fires? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">First thing first you must check if you’re allowed to build a campfire at the place you’re going and this might be seasonal. So check the website of the place you’re going call the ranger if you have questions. Just triple check whether or not you’re allowed to build a campfire, if you are. Typically, you’ll be required to make it in sort of a cleared out space with some rocks. There might even be dispersed sites like past people who have made, sort of, little campfire area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anywhere you’re camping in California, you need to get a California campfire permit. Even if you’re not going to make a campfire, if you are going to cook using a stove, if you’re going to use fire for any reason at all while you’re out there, you need to have a valid campfire permit. It’s like a five minute video. You sign up, it’s free. It just to remind you of how to safely use fire out in the backcountry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And finally, we have to talk about it, but toilets. You won’t find any if you’re dispersed camping for the most part. What are guidelines people need to keep in mind for when nature calls?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, so there’s this handy tool called a trowel and you should always have one. It’s basically like a mini shovel for your poop. And most regulations here in California are to bury your poop six to eight inches deep in a hole. And you wanna be at least 200 feet away from any water sources. And it’s important that you dig deep enough, you go in the hole, you cover it up, and try to- do it like also away from where anyone might be camping or anything like that. I personally always pack out my toilet paper. I know some people bury their toilet paper here on the West Coast. The climate is so dry that that toilet paper is not going to be decomposing at a reasonable rate. I put a ziplock inside of a ziplock. And I put all of my toilet paper in there and pack it out with the rest of my trash and just double-check some wilderness areas here in California will even require that you use a wag bag. It sounds more fun than it is. It’s basically an insulated, like scented Ziploc bag that you had to poop in and that’s so that you don’t leave any of your waste behind at all. And that may sound crazy, but. If you’ve ever been to an area that requires a wag bag, you’ll immediately understand why. It’s like beautiful granite landscapes where there are no trees, there’s no soil. So there’s just really no chance of your poop being, you know, biodegradable in a reasonable amount of time. So that’s something that you have to make sure that you’re prepared to do. And that means like bringing enough trash bags where you feel comfortable in your vehicle, storing your poop trash. Somewhere away from your food, away from your clothes, away from everything else. So just be prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds so fun, but I mean, wag bags are great to have no matter what, even if you think you’re gonna be able to dig a hole because eight inches is pretty deep. You might not always have that much, I don’t know, digging interest in you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Digging interest and also like warning time, like, if you’re just like gotta go it’s nice to have a wag bag ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, so if people are interested, where might they get started with some of this this summer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so Ben actually had a really good suggestion. It’s to go to Jackson Demonstration State Forest that’s up in Mendocino County. It’s not technically dispersed camping, but it’s an area that’s managed by Cal Fire and the sites are super spread out. They’re first come first serve and there are no facilities very similar to dispersed camping except there are outhouses. So he suggested it as a great sort of intro trip if you’re interested in dispersed camping, you want to start bringing your own water, bringing your own, you know, emergency devices, et cetera, but you’re a little scared to get out there for real. That’s a great first spot to check out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other suggestion I have is to pick the highway closest to you that goes up into the Sierras and find a spot at least a mile off of the highway in the National Forest there. So that’s likely to be like Tahoe National Forest or El Dorado or Stanislaus. And these types of spots are so beautiful. They’re almost Tahoe-like in their alpine wilderness, but without the crowds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We like to use the motor vehicle use map that the National Forest puts out that has a little bit more details about where all you can drive your car if you are in a National Forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, that map is super helpful and all those apps I mentioned have that as an overlay so you can check your route that you’re building with sort of those access areas. And of course, make sure that your car can handle the roads that you are planning to go down. Many of these roads are probably dirt or gravel roads and aren’t super well maintained. So just double check before you’re going about whether it’s a paved road or not and whether or not your car could handle it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those are some great tips. Sarah, thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah Wright is the outdoors reporter for KQED. She has a full guide to dispersed camping on kqed.org with lots of links and resources for planning your first trip. We’ll put a link in our show notes. Every month we invite our audience to vote on some questions we’re considering answering on the show. Our June round just went up. Here are your options. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I have lived in the Richmond District for decades and heard that it is also known as Little Russia. How did that happen? There’s a large Russian cathedral and several Russian stores and delis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I walked through the Presidio and noticed many beautiful private-looking residences. Is the public allowed to live there? Is it still a Navy and Army property? Who maintains this lovely park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Was there a steam railroad through Noe Valley and the Mission? Is there a way left to see it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cast your vote at BayCurious.org. It’s quick and easy. Bake Your Race is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, happy trails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Singing] Happy trails to you until we meet again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ooh, can we auto tune that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp> \u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California is a beautiful state with incredible natural scenery. But it can sometimes feel daunting to actually get out and take advantage of all the state has to offer because there are so many other people vying for the same campsites and permits. The \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11973183/want-to-go-camping-near-the-bay-area-this-summer-make-your-reservations-now#:~:text=Camping%20on%20federal%20Forest%20Service%20or%20BLM%20land\">process to reserve campsites\u003c/a> is notoriously cumbersome and favors people who know their plans in advance. But what if you find yourself with a free summer weekend? Dispersed camping might be just the thing, but it’s worth knowing what you’re getting yourself into. We break down the main things to be aware of so that you can have a great time and stay safe.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And if you’re looking for more resources about camping, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/explainers\">KQED’s Audience Desk\u003c/a> has a ton of helpful guides:\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12083697/how-to-find-dispersed-camping-california-near-san-francisco-bay-area-free-campsites-public-lands-national-forests-blm\">Dispersed Camping 101: How to Find Free Campsites Near the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12082396/cheap-camping-near-bay-area-checklist-gear-cookware-tent-rental-sleeping-bag-pad\">How Cheaply Can You Camp In the Bay Area Without Sacrificing Comfort?\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12035515/where-to-go-camping-in-the-south-bay\">Where to Go Camping In the South Bay\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11920867/how-to-find-free-camping-in-californias-national-forests\">How to Find Free Camping in California’s National Forests\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Bay Curious audience has shown us over the years that you all are very interested in camping. In 2017, we did a story about how bots snap up campsites, making it nearly impossible for real humans to click their way into a primo reservation. And you made it one of our most popular stories of the year. Last year, we offered a little update on that story. TLDR, things are better, but still, it’s tough out there. And we offered some tips on how to be a camping reservation making master. This year, we wanted to help you even more by going in depth on how to get out and go camping if you’re maybe not the type of person who could wake up early and make a reservation six months in advance. Or maybe if you feel like being at a campsite that’s a stone’s throw from the next group isn’t quite getting away from it all. Today, we’re talking about dispersed camping. No reservations needed, just show up, set up, and go. Could it be camping at its finest, easiest, truest form, or could it be more than you bargained for? Here to guide us through it all and answer your questions about dispersed camping is KQED’s outdoor reporter, Sarah Wright. Welcome, Sarah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks so much for having me. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I gotta start by showing my cards here. I have done some dispersed camping myself. For people who have not tried this yet, what is dispersed camping?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so I have also done quite a lot of dispersed camping, most of it backpacking, so hiking out to a secluded spot all by yourself, which I think is like the best way to experience nature, but there’s a way to do that without hiking at all with your car. Dispersed camping is where you are usually going to a federal government wilderness area, there’s no campground, you’re on public land, It’s usually free to camp out there. And it’s sort of like a safari. That’s how Ben Easley, the founder of Overland Trail Guides, described it to me. He runs a website that offers downloadable guides and GPS waypoints for remote camping all over the US.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s still some amazing campgrounds out there, don’t get me wrong, but I think once you get turned on to dispersed camping, you can make better educated decisions on where to camp that are gonna meet your criteria.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It sounds like an absolute dream, but there are some drawbacks that people need to understand up front, right? What are those?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because you’re not at a developed campsite, there’s not gonna be any facilities. That means no bathrooms, no running water, often there’s no cell service, there’s trash service either, so you’ll have to pack out everything you bring in. It’s not really a campsite. It’s just a spot where you can set up and you’ll be out there completely on your own. So logistically, you need to be ready for that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You’ll still see people when you go to Spurs camping, but once you kind of get the hang of it, even with 40 million people in the state, you can absolutely find locations where you won’t see a neighbor around you if you know where to look.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But none of these places are particularly close to here. We should also be upfront about that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, that’s right. Typically, you can only disperse camp on federal lands. That means you have to get out of our local state parks, our local beaches, where everything’s regulated and developed campsites are the norms. And you have to go to places like Tahoe National Forest or Mendocino, a few hours farther away, but a chance to explore a new wilderness area. How do you find a place to disperse camp? What do you look for? First, I would advise figuring out where you want to go. Do you want be in Redwood Forest? Do you wanna be up in high alpine lakes? You wanna be by the beach? Narrow it down generally to a region and then do your research. There’s a ton of information online. There are lots of YouTube accounts, lots of bloggers who will show you kind of the opportunities in those areas. Your next step is to figure out what agency manages the land that you’re trying to go on. So go to the website of that agency. It’s probably the Bureau of Land Management or the US Forest Service. And it might be as easy as downloading the free maps on that website to figure out where is a road that you can take and where can you disperse camp. The best advice that Ben gave me and that I agree with is to just call up the local ranger station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know people don’t do this anymore, but you’d be amazed how much information you can simply get by just picking up a phone. And sometimes the people that you talk to will tell you their secret spots of places to go check out as well.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If this is sounding intimidating, but people are still interested, is there sort of a recommendation for where you might get started?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You don’t want to design your own itinerary, you can download some expert resources. So there are free and paid apps that have overlays essentially, so maps that can tell you where the U.S. Forest Service or BLM land is and help you design a route through these lands in order to camp somewhere that’s for sure on public, not private land, which is important. And so some of the paid apps are apps like Onyx or Gaia GPS or The Dirt. And the good thing about these apps is most of them offer like a two-week free promo period. So you can test them out and see if you like them and if they’re helpful before committing. There’s also free apps like Cal Topo. They take a little bit more tinkering and time to get used to, but if you’re someone who’s really into like… Maps and navigating, play around in those and you can even build routes and have them accessible offline while you’re actually camping.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And maybe walk me through, what was your experience of going dispersed camping? Like you roll up, what then?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of my favorite things about this first camping is that you have to have a first choice, a second choice, and a third choice, because you don’t know if people are going to be there. So my experience is you roll up and you’re shocked and excited that your first choice is available and hopefully as beautiful as you thought. But you always have to be prepared in the case that someone’s already there. And Ben gave me good advice, you know, if somebody’s in the spot you were hoping to get.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ben Easley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When there’s other room around you, the expectation is that, like, you should respect that somebody got that site before you and you should try to find somewhere else.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">My experience in general has been that there’s more than enough space to go around. You can go down the dirt road a couple more miles and find an equally great spot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’ll say a lot of the dispersed camping I’ve done has been a little bit more, like, of the dirt bag variety, I would say. So the camp site that we were at wasn’t particularly beautiful, but it was more about proximity to something that was really cool. So we’ve crashed a couple times outside of Yosemite. There’s some forest service land that is not particularly notable, but it’s really about just having a place to sleep so you can wake up early and then get into Yosemite and have a great day. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re going to pause for a quick break. More just ahead. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor break\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some friends of mine went dispersed camping for their very first trip this past weekend. And I was asking them about what questions they were facing as they were sort of getting ready to, you know, embark on this new adventure. And one of their biggest concerns was about water. How do you camp without a clean water source or a spigot?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You basically have two options. If the place you’re going, you know, has access to a stream or a river or a lake, you can pack a water filter and just make sure you’re also packing like some sort of receptacle to hold the water in. So I bring these big two, three liter bags. You can bring, you know, those sort of car camping jugs, but if you aren’t sure you are gonna have water, it’s always kind of better to be safe than sorry. Just bring enough. And make sure you have enough to cook. Enough to clean, enough to put out a fire if you create a fire. So just like have extra as insurance. Also if it’s hotter than you think it’s going to be all you have to do is be prepared. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what about fires? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">First thing first you must check if you’re allowed to build a campfire at the place you’re going and this might be seasonal. So check the website of the place you’re going call the ranger if you have questions. Just triple check whether or not you’re allowed to build a campfire, if you are. Typically, you’ll be required to make it in sort of a cleared out space with some rocks. There might even be dispersed sites like past people who have made, sort of, little campfire area.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Anywhere you’re camping in California, you need to get a California campfire permit. Even if you’re not going to make a campfire, if you are going to cook using a stove, if you’re going to use fire for any reason at all while you’re out there, you need to have a valid campfire permit. It’s like a five minute video. You sign up, it’s free. It just to remind you of how to safely use fire out in the backcountry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And finally, we have to talk about it, but toilets. You won’t find any if you’re dispersed camping for the most part. What are guidelines people need to keep in mind for when nature calls?\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, so there’s this handy tool called a trowel and you should always have one. It’s basically like a mini shovel for your poop. And most regulations here in California are to bury your poop six to eight inches deep in a hole. And you wanna be at least 200 feet away from any water sources. And it’s important that you dig deep enough, you go in the hole, you cover it up, and try to- do it like also away from where anyone might be camping or anything like that. I personally always pack out my toilet paper. I know some people bury their toilet paper here on the West Coast. The climate is so dry that that toilet paper is not going to be decomposing at a reasonable rate. I put a ziplock inside of a ziplock. And I put all of my toilet paper in there and pack it out with the rest of my trash and just double-check some wilderness areas here in California will even require that you use a wag bag. It sounds more fun than it is. It’s basically an insulated, like scented Ziploc bag that you had to poop in and that’s so that you don’t leave any of your waste behind at all. And that may sound crazy, but. If you’ve ever been to an area that requires a wag bag, you’ll immediately understand why. It’s like beautiful granite landscapes where there are no trees, there’s no soil. So there’s just really no chance of your poop being, you know, biodegradable in a reasonable amount of time. So that’s something that you have to make sure that you’re prepared to do. And that means like bringing enough trash bags where you feel comfortable in your vehicle, storing your poop trash. Somewhere away from your food, away from your clothes, away from everything else. So just be prepared.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sounds so fun, but I mean, wag bags are great to have no matter what, even if you think you’re gonna be able to dig a hole because eight inches is pretty deep. You might not always have that much, I don’t know, digging interest in you.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Digging interest and also like warning time, like, if you’re just like gotta go it’s nice to have a wag bag ready.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Okay, so if people are interested, where might they get started with some of this this summer?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so Ben actually had a really good suggestion. It’s to go to Jackson Demonstration State Forest that’s up in Mendocino County. It’s not technically dispersed camping, but it’s an area that’s managed by Cal Fire and the sites are super spread out. They’re first come first serve and there are no facilities very similar to dispersed camping except there are outhouses. So he suggested it as a great sort of intro trip if you’re interested in dispersed camping, you want to start bringing your own water, bringing your own, you know, emergency devices, et cetera, but you’re a little scared to get out there for real. That’s a great first spot to check out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The other suggestion I have is to pick the highway closest to you that goes up into the Sierras and find a spot at least a mile off of the highway in the National Forest there. So that’s likely to be like Tahoe National Forest or El Dorado or Stanislaus. And these types of spots are so beautiful. They’re almost Tahoe-like in their alpine wilderness, but without the crowds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We like to use the motor vehicle use map that the National Forest puts out that has a little bit more details about where all you can drive your car if you are in a National Forest.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Wright: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, that map is super helpful and all those apps I mentioned have that as an overlay so you can check your route that you’re building with sort of those access areas. And of course, make sure that your car can handle the roads that you are planning to go down. Many of these roads are probably dirt or gravel roads and aren’t super well maintained. So just double check before you’re going about whether it’s a paved road or not and whether or not your car could handle it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Those are some great tips. Sarah, thank you so much. Thank you. Sarah Wright is the outdoors reporter for KQED. She has a full guide to dispersed camping on kqed.org with lots of links and resources for planning your first trip. We’ll put a link in our show notes. Every month we invite our audience to vote on some questions we’re considering answering on the show. Our June round just went up. Here are your options. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 1:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I have lived in the Richmond District for decades and heard that it is also known as Little Russia. How did that happen? There’s a large Russian cathedral and several Russian stores and delis. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 2: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I walked through the Presidio and noticed many beautiful private-looking residences. Is the public allowed to live there? Is it still a Navy and Army property? Who maintains this lovely park?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice 3: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Was there a steam railroad through Noe Valley and the Mission? Is there a way left to see it?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Cast your vote at BayCurious.org. It’s quick and easy. Bake Your Race is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Springer, Jen Chien, Ethan Tovan Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price, happy trails. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">[Singing] Happy trails to you until we meet again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ooh, can we auto tune that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp> \u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-wetsuit-changed-surfing-weve-got-a-berkeley-physicist-to-thank-for-it",
"title": "The Wetsuit Changed Surfing — We’ve Got a Berkeley Physicist to Thank for It",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove is located at the northernmost curve of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>’s Ocean Beach. Tucked right below the Cliff House, it was one of the earliest surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The now quintessential California sport was late to arrive in San Francisco, only coming into its own in the 1940s. If you’ve ever dipped your toes in the ocean here, you’ll know why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water temperatures would creep below 50 degrees at times,” longtime surfer Jim Gallagher said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was part of the Kelly’s Cove community. They were a select group, willing to brave frigid waters for the chance at the perfect wave. And in the early days, they did it without wetsuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before neoprene suits were invented, surfers like Gallagher had to rely on their senses to keep them safe. “We became experts in hypothermia,” Gallagher said. Surfers kept sessions short and experimented with creative ways to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Guys tried almost everything,” Gallagher said. People surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079528\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Surfers near Ocean Beach in San Francisco in an undated photograph believed to date to the late 1960s or early 1970s. Photographer unknown. The image is from a collection of photo negatives belonging to Dennis O’Rorke. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079525\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079525 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"850\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2000x664.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-1536x510.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2048x680.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Surfers check out a wetsuit at Kelly’s Cove on Ocean Beach, circa 1970s. Right: Beach goers lie out to enjoy a warm day at Ocean Beach, San Francisco, circa 1970s. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There was a theory that two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear, which was nylon and close-fit, you would have less cloth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That particular hypothesis was debunked quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonfires were the most reliable way to warm up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084172\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084172\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer walks in the water to surf at Ocean Beach in San Francisco on Feb. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Typically, somebody would bring down old tires because tires really hold the heat,” Gallagher said. “It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly 75 years later, everyone at Ocean Beach is wearing a wetsuit, not to mention neoprene hoods, gloves, and booties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How that happened has roots in Kelly’s Cove and a whole lot to do with a Berkeley physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Designing a suit for the military man\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the major challenges for Allied forces during World War II was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on enemy coasts. The shorelines were heavily fortified, rigged with concrete, metal and wood obstacles that could only be dismantled by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On D-Day in 1944, Naval Combat Demolition Units — better known as frogmen — deployed to Omaha Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re just wearing wool sweaters and things like that,” historian Peter Westwick said. “And they suffered terribly; their casualty rate was like 50%.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084194\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084194\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"901\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-160x72.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-1536x692.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Hugh Bradner at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. Right: Hugh Bradner at his desk at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire, doing precision work in cold water for a long time. For the U.S., it was part of a larger wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The U.S. Navy [is] quickly realizing the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference,” Westwick said. “So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Post-war, the Navy turned to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nasonline.org/\">National Academy of Sciences\u003c/a> for help. They convened a panel to tackle the problem and tapped Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner to join the group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After completing his PhD at Caltech, Bradner had worked on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11956611/from-berkeley-to-the-bomb-oppenheimer-before-los-alamos\">Manhattan Project\u003c/a>, helping the United States develop the atomic bomb. Perhaps more importantly, he was an avid diver and waterman.[aside postID=news_12082529 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_004-KQED.jpg']One of his first projects with the panel was trying to design a suit to help divers survive underwater explosions. But he soon realized the foam materials he was working with could help tackle the cold water problem, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was then, Westwick said, that Bradner came up with his fundamental contribution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a concept that flew in the face of accepted knowledge at the time, when the best option for watermen was a dry suit. Dry suits, as the name suggests, keep divers warm by keeping them dry. They’d bundle up in wool underlayers and step into a bulky rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around [in],” Westwick said. Bradner’s “wetsuit” idea wouldn’t depend on layers of wool underwear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You let the water in and then let [the divers’] body warm them up,” Westwick said. “The [suit] material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague. It’s the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other innovation in Bradner’s design was the use of neoprene, a synthetic rubber that became widely available during World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1211\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-1536x930.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Two men in diving gear with small, round raft. These diving suits predate the neoprene wetsuit. Right: John S. Foster modeling wet suit designed by Hugh Bradner around 1953. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Westwick said Bradner started testing his neoprene suit in 1951. “He tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. But Bradner wasn’t interested in becoming a businessman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He says, ‘No, no, I want to preserve my objectivity here,’” Westwick said. “‘I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, Bradner never patented his design. “‘Let’s just throw it out there,” Westwick paraphrased, “and let people run with it.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s exactly what happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The wetsuit goes mainstream\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On the other side of San Francisco Bay — back on foggy Ocean Beach — a local surfer and tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove was working on his own suit. After experimenting with other materials, Jack O’Neill also stumbled across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher, the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach, was friends with O’Neill. “He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things,” Gallagher said. “But he was a really curious sort of guy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084191\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084191\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1021\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-160x82.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-1536x784.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill as a young man wearing a pre-wetsuit in the 1950s. Right: Jack O’Neill and sons Pat and Mike demonstrating Jack’s supersuit he invented between 1970 and 1979. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>O’Neill has long been considered one of the fathers of the wetsuit, along with the Southern California company Body Glove, a distinction both were happy to cultivate. But this line on the \u003ca href=\"https://eu.oneill.com/blogs/all/who-was-jack-oneill\">O’Neill company blog\u003c/a> raises questions about those claims: “Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I reached out to the O’Neill company to get a better understanding of the degree to which O’Neill was aware of Bradner’s discovery, but the company did not respond to my request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, said the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher said the O’Neill suit was a game-changer for surfers at Kelly’s Cove. When they saw the inventor in his neoprene suit, “[they] said, ‘Well, how do I get one?’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll make you one.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was lucky enough to get one of the early models. It was custom in every sense of the word, carefully measured and tailored to his body.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080309\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080309\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gary Silberstein sits in the back of his car next to his surfboard at his home in Santa Cruz on April 14, 2026, before heading out to surf. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"820\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-160x66.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-1536x630.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Gary Silberstein holds a Jack O’Neill wetsuit he has owned since the 1960s. Right: Silberstein surfing at Ocean Beach in the 1960s. \u003ccite>(Left: Beth LaBerge/KQED. Right: Courtesy of Gary Silberstein)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These early suits weren’t lined. Surfers like Kelly’s Cove local Gary Silberstein used cornstarch or talc to help them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silberstein has held on to one of O’Neill’s later models. The neoprene is thick and inflexible by today’s standards, but it still looks warmer than a wool sweater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Silberstein has put the suit through the wringer. “The wetsuit has 18 holes; it’s real leaky and cold,” he said, pointing out the tears. “You can see this has been repaired, but this would still be a functional wetsuit 50 years in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080277\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080277\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill’s first surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco with Jack’s children, Cathy, Mike and Pat, standing in front of shop in 1957. Right: The site of the first Jack O’Neill surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco on April 14, 2026. The shop opened in the early 1950s and later moved to Santa Cruz in the late 1950s. \u003ccite>(Left: Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library. Right: Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1278\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-160x102.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-1536x982.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer stands at Ocean Beach in San Francisco in 1972. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops. He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles and diving headfirst into marketing. Today, O’Neill is one of the biggest surf companies out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why you might know his name, while Bradner has largely been left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the wetsuit changed surfing\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter, and of course at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world,” Silberstein said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed. “I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water,” despite the cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Jack O’Neill used to say, “When you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s a foggy day at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach … just like so many before it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Everything’s gray … cold and windy … but familiar landmarks stick out in the fog … seal rock … the Cliff House …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s the early 1950s … and the waves are roaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Waves crashing\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There are a few surfers paddling out. They’re wearing … shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>When you first went in the water, your fingers would sting and your toes would sting, and that stinging would begin to increase a little bit up your arms and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jim Gallagher was part of a group of surfers who braved Northern California’s frigid waters in the early days of surfing here. A place where ocean temperature stays in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/coastal-water-temperature-guide/all_table.html\">50s\u003c/a> for \u003ca href=\"https://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Ocean-Beach/seatemp\">most\u003c/a> of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> And then after an hour or so, that stinging would abate, and you start feeling good, well, you’re about to die, so you better get out of the water fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> At Ocean Beach, surfers found community and creative ways to keep warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> We became experts on hypothermia …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cu>\u003c/u>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim got into body surfing as a kid and soon found a community of surfers at Kelly’s Cove, at the north end of Ocean Beach. It was one of the earliest board and body surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>A myth went out that somebody named Kelly died on the beach. There was a competing story that was a Foster & Kleiser sign, a big advertisement for Kelly’s tires. So people had been saying, where’s the beach, or go down to see the Kelly sign …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the early days of the sport, people surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly, or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> Guys tried almost everything. There was a theory, two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear was nylon and close fit, you would get have less cloth. And that got debunked pretty quick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The solution was quick surf sessions, maybe ride a few waves and come running back to the beach, to the bonfires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>Typically, somebody would bring down old tires, and because tires really hold the heat. And so you could be standing 5 and 6 feet away from the fire and be quite warmed by that fire. It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>While Kelly’s Cove surfers were doing their best to outsmart the ocean … thousands of miles away, another group was having trouble with cold water too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, the U.S. military learned the hard way that a soldier’s capacity to function in cold water could make or break an invasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>World War II music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For the Allied forces, one of the major challenges of the war was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on heavily fortified enemy coasts\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concrete, metal and wood obstacles could only really be dealt with by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The story of the United States Navy’s frogmen is a story of adventure, of brave men against the enemy and against the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So-called “frogmen” trained in warm-weather Florida, in mild surf … not the kind of conditions you typically find off the coast of France.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The weather is none too good, but the little ships are plugging onto the beaches, bringing enormous support of manpower and weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>On D-Day, they deployed to Omaha Beach. And as historian Peter Westwick tells it, they were pretty poorly equipped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And basically, they’re just wearing kind of like wool sweaters and things like that. And they suffered terribly. Their casualty rate was like 50%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire … doing precision work in cold water for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the US military, the whole war was one big wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The US Navy is quickly realizing, OK, the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference. So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>At the time, if you wanted to stay warm underwater … dry suits were the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And what the dry suit basically did was, as its name suggests, was it kept you dry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The suits were bulky. You’d bundle up in wool layers and then step into a watertight rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even today, many scuba divers use a more advanced version of this technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Americans sometimes used drysuits during the war, they weren’t perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The downside was, you know, you stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>“Suit squeeze” was common, pinching watermen in sensitive places at the most inopportune times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Imagine trying to disarm a bomb underwater while wearing 20 leather jackets stacked on each other. Not exactly practical combat gear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, what’s a Navy to do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the war, the Navy turned to scientists for help. One man in particular seemed like a good bet — Hugh Bradner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>Bradner likes to dive, and has dived in cold water regions before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner got his PhD in physics from Caltech. During World War II, he worked on the Manhattan Project… helping the United States develop the atomic bomb.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After that, he got a job as a professor at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He’s diving, swimming and playing water polo around the Bay Area. So avid kind of waterman, as we would call it now, but also a top-notch physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner joined the project … working first on a different problem … a suit to protect divers from underwater explosions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s tinkering with these foam materials, using them like shock absorbers … and starts wondering if the foam could also help keep divers warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And then he comes in and ends up with the really fundamental contribution to this whole, this whole enterprise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Actually, I do not think it is necessary to have a waterproof suit. It should be possible to obtain adequate warmth by use of a “dead water” space from a furry type of porous material …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>There’s this really kind of central, counterintuitive insight there, before the whole assumption was that if you’re in cold water, the way you keep from getting cold is to keep the water out. The water is cold. If you keep the water out, you will stay warm. Bradner says you let the water in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Let the water in, he thought, and your body would warm it up naturally.\u003cu> \u003c/u>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And the material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>His other big breakthrough was identifying the kind of material needed to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>When he’s looking around for materials to test, here is this material right at hand that the chemical industry is cranking out in great quantities, especially for the U.S. military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The synthetic rubber was invented in the 1930s by chemists at DuPont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, it became an important substitute for rubber, which was hard to come by. Inventors improved on the material, making it better and more widely available … just in time for Bradner to prototype his wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He begins testing this in 195. And he tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. Bradner’s 1951 letter describing his idea is the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But chances are, unless you’re a physicist or history nerd, you probably haven’t heard of Hugh Bradner. That’s because he never patented his design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>So he says, no, no, I want to preserve my kind of objectivity here. I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He was a science guy … not a businessman. And as the thinking went, diving and surfing were destined to remain small niches, not places to make real money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And it’s funny, because some of the other panel members are actually writing Bradner at this time, saying, like, Dude, you’re blowing it. Like you can do both … you can be a businessman. And Brander says, like, no, no… forget it. I’m not going to patent it, and let’s just make it. Let’s just throw it out there and let people run with it, which is what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bradner had no idea that the suit he’d invented would forever change the world of surfing and water sports. More on that when we return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re enjoying stories like this one, consider becoming a member of KQED. We can’t do this work without listener donations, so consider joining the hundreds of thousands of your Bay Area neighbors today. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the invention of the wetsuit, and its Bay Area connection. Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner came up with the idea in 1951, but he never had it patented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It didn’t take long for the novel concept to go mainstream, thanks in part to the ingenuity and marketing prowess of a few California surfing legends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Just a short time after Bradner comes up with his wetsuit, a local tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove stumbled upon a similar idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher — the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach — he was friends with him: a man named Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things, but he was a really curious sort of guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Legend has it that O’Neill experimented with all kinds of interesting suit solutions. But nothing really worked. Until he, like Bradner, came across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He made the neoprene suit, and he made one for himself, went out and came back, and people saw that, and he said, Well, how did I get one? He said, Well, I’ll make you one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Unlike the mainstream wetsuits of today, Jack’s suits were always custom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>And I remember when I went down to get mine, I went to his home. He was still living on Wawona, and his brother Bob was there. He was working for Jack, and you went in and he measured you like a tailor would … almost you know, the length of from your elbow midpoint to your wrist and up to your shoulders, around your waist or chest, arm length, legs, the whole body, and he might make a template and then cut the neoprene to that template and glue it together. And that’s how the first ones were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles … and dove headfirst into marketing. At a 1956 San Francisco trade show, for instance, he dressed up his six kids in little wetsuits and threw them into tubs of ice water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove surfer Gary Silberstein remembers this time well, when the early wetsuit was gaining traction, rudimentary as they were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> They weren’t lined, okay, with any fabric. And … use cornstarch to or talc, something to make them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I met up with Gary at his Santa Cruz home, he pulled an old O’Neill suit out to show me … like most early wetsuits, it’s just a jacket, nothing covering the legs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You are looking at Jack O’Neill. This is his logo, which is now all kind of etched away from years and years of surfing. And it’s a jacket. It’s simply a long sleeved, long sleeve jacket, pretty heavy neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The neoprene was rough … and cracked in places …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>You can see that the stitches hold the arm pieces. These are all pieces of neoprene that had to be cut before they’re stitched together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>And do you remember how much they cost back in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>the day?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>I’m guessing everything’s so much cheaper, probably 35-40 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t be surprised if Gary’s old O’Neill suit ended up in a museum one day. It’s well-preserved evidence of an invention that changed surfing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter… and of course, at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> And so the whole culture, the whole availability of equipment, improved enormously over those years, from, let’s say, 58 to 65 or 64 when I left Kelly’s Cove … Wet suits became very inexpensive and available, and surfboards made of foam were mass produced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Due to his commercial success, O’Neill came to be known as one of the “fathers of the wetsuit.” Body Glove, an early SoCal surf and dive company, is often also given that accolade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bradner, though, was largely left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But about 40 years after walking away from wetsuit development, Bradner began writing letters to try to clarify the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Jack, You have lately been getting much well-deserved publicity for your invention of the surfing wetsuit. You perhaps recall that I was early in the wetsuit too, but not for surfers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>One letter recipient? Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>The enclosed xerox of my June 21, 1951, letter to Larry Marshall has the disclosure that I believe \u003cu>may\u003c/u> (underlined) have been the beginning of it all. I’d be interested to learn whether your wetsuit predates it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sincerely,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hugh Bradner\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner’s copy of O’Neill’s reply, if one existed, isn’t in the archive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there are a lot of other letters. All following a similar thread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Bill, I am enjoying very much your latest book … There is one experience in which I did participate: the wetsuit … We have there an important question of timing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I consider this very important because if your work predates June 21, 1951, I must set about recanting my claim and fame by contacting significant people and widely read publications.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Please set my mind at rest as soon as you can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The letter recipients, all in all, seem to have been less concerned than Bradner about clearing up the timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over Willard Bascom: \u003c/strong>“Dear Hugh … History is what we remember (including you).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My suggestion is that you let all statements stand …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Relax and have a merry Christmas. Kindest, Willard”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Like Hugh Bradner, I did some of my own due diligence … and reached out to O’Neill and Body Glove for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, told me the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The O’Neill company didn’t respond to my request for comment … But they’ve got this line on their company blog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Versions of this neoprene suit are everywhere these days. Now complete with gloves, booties, and a hood for the cold-weather rider. It’s a combination early Ocean Beach surfers could have only dreamed of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because, as Jack O’Neill would say, when you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I want to let you all in on something we’ve been working on behind the scenes for the last few months! A historically-themed gaming experience at San Francisco’s Conservatory of Flowers. It’s like nothing Bay Curious had done before … and now, it’s time to invite you to join us! Come out on June 20 and 21st and explore the history of the Conservatory and the people who created it. Tickets on sale at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">KQED.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be no episode dropping next week because of the Memorial Day holiday. We’ll be back with the freshy fresh on June 4.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove is located at the northernmost curve of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>’s Ocean Beach. Tucked right below the Cliff House, it was one of the earliest surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The now quintessential California sport was late to arrive in San Francisco, only coming into its own in the 1940s. If you’ve ever dipped your toes in the ocean here, you’ll know why.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The water temperatures would creep below 50 degrees at times,” longtime surfer Jim Gallagher said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was part of the Kelly’s Cove community. They were a select group, willing to brave frigid waters for the chance at the perfect wave. And in the early days, they did it without wetsuits.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Before neoprene suits were invented, surfers like Gallagher had to rely on their senses to keep them safe. “We became experts in hypothermia,” Gallagher said. Surfers kept sessions short and experimented with creative ways to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Guys tried almost everything,” Gallagher said. People surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079528\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12079528\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/O_Neill-14ARP_edited-1-3-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Surfers near Ocean Beach in San Francisco in an undated photograph believed to date to the late 1960s or early 1970s. Photographer unknown. The image is from a collection of photo negatives belonging to Dennis O’Rorke. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12079525\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12079525 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"850\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2000x664.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-1536x510.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/South-1AAANC-9-2048x680.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Surfers check out a wetsuit at Kelly’s Cove on Ocean Beach, circa 1970s. Right: Beach goers lie out to enjoy a warm day at Ocean Beach, San Francisco, circa 1970s. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“There was a theory that two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear, which was nylon and close-fit, you would have less cloth,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That particular hypothesis was debunked quickly.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bonfires were the most reliable way to warm up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084172\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1999px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084172\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1999\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed.jpg 1999w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/250210-SurferSewage-05-BL_qed-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1999px) 100vw, 1999px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer walks in the water to surf at Ocean Beach in San Francisco on Feb. 10, 2025. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“Typically, somebody would bring down old tires because tires really hold the heat,” Gallagher said. “It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nearly 75 years later, everyone at Ocean Beach is wearing a wetsuit, not to mention neoprene hoods, gloves, and booties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>How that happened has roots in Kelly’s Cove and a whole lot to do with a Berkeley physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Designing a suit for the military man\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>One of the major challenges for Allied forces during World War II was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on enemy coasts. The shorelines were heavily fortified, rigged with concrete, metal and wood obstacles that could only be dismantled by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On D-Day in 1944, Naval Combat Demolition Units — better known as frogmen — deployed to Omaha Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re just wearing wool sweaters and things like that,” historian Peter Westwick said. “And they suffered terribly; their casualty rate was like 50%.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084194\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084194\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"901\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-160x72.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HughBradner-1536x692.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Hugh Bradner at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. Right: Hugh Bradner at his desk at the California Institute of Technology around 1941. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire, doing precision work in cold water for a long time. For the U.S., it was part of a larger wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The U.S. Navy [is] quickly realizing the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference,” Westwick said. “So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Post-war, the Navy turned to the \u003ca href=\"https://www.nasonline.org/\">National Academy of Sciences\u003c/a> for help. They convened a panel to tackle the problem and tapped Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner to join the group.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After completing his PhD at Caltech, Bradner had worked on the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11956611/from-berkeley-to-the-bomb-oppenheimer-before-los-alamos\">Manhattan Project\u003c/a>, helping the United States develop the atomic bomb. Perhaps more importantly, he was an avid diver and waterman.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>One of his first projects with the panel was trying to design a suit to help divers survive underwater explosions. But he soon realized the foam materials he was working with could help tackle the cold water problem, too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was then, Westwick said, that Bradner came up with his fundamental contribution.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a concept that flew in the face of accepted knowledge at the time, when the best option for watermen was a dry suit. Dry suits, as the name suggests, keep divers warm by keeping them dry. They’d bundle up in wool underlayers and step into a bulky rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around [in],” Westwick said. Bradner’s “wetsuit” idea wouldn’t depend on layers of wool underwear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You let the water in and then let [the divers’] body warm them up,” Westwick said. “The [suit] material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague. It’s the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The other innovation in Bradner’s design was the use of neoprene, a synthetic rubber that became widely available during World War II.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084195\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084195\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1211\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-160x97.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/HistoryoftheWetsuit3-1536x930.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Two men in diving gear with small, round raft. These diving suits predate the neoprene wetsuit. Right: John S. Foster modeling wet suit designed by Hugh Bradner around 1953. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of UC San Diego Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Westwick said Bradner started testing his neoprene suit in 1951. “He tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. But Bradner wasn’t interested in becoming a businessman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He says, ‘No, no, I want to preserve my objectivity here,’” Westwick said. “‘I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the end, Bradner never patented his design. “‘Let’s just throw it out there,” Westwick paraphrased, “and let people run with it.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s exactly what happened.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The wetsuit goes mainstream\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>On the other side of San Francisco Bay — back on foggy Ocean Beach — a local surfer and tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove was working on his own suit. After experimenting with other materials, Jack O’Neill also stumbled across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher, the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach, was friends with O’Neill. “He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things,” Gallagher said. “But he was a really curious sort of guy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084191\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084191\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1021\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-160x82.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/JackONeill_SFPL-1536x784.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill as a young man wearing a pre-wetsuit in the 1950s. Right: Jack O’Neill and sons Pat and Mike demonstrating Jack’s supersuit he invented between 1970 and 1979. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>O’Neill has long been considered one of the fathers of the wetsuit, along with the Southern California company Body Glove, a distinction both were happy to cultivate. But this line on the \u003ca href=\"https://eu.oneill.com/blogs/all/who-was-jack-oneill\">O’Neill company blog\u003c/a> raises questions about those claims: “Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I reached out to the O’Neill company to get a better understanding of the degree to which O’Neill was aware of Bradner’s discovery, but the company did not respond to my request for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, said the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher said the O’Neill suit was a game-changer for surfers at Kelly’s Cove. When they saw the inventor in his neoprene suit, “[they] said, ‘Well, how do I get one?’ He said, ‘Well, I’ll make you one.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gallagher was lucky enough to get one of the early models. It was custom in every sense of the word, carefully measured and tailored to his body.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080309\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080309\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260414-BAYCURIOUSINVENTIONOFWETSUIT-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Gary Silberstein sits in the back of his car next to his surfboard at his home in Santa Cruz on April 14, 2026, before heading out to surf. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084192\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084192\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"820\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-160x66.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260414-HistoryoftheWetsuit-30-BL-1536x630.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Gary Silberstein holds a Jack O’Neill wetsuit he has owned since the 1960s. Right: Silberstein surfing at Ocean Beach in the 1960s. \u003ccite>(Left: Beth LaBerge/KQED. Right: Courtesy of Gary Silberstein)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>These early suits weren’t lined. Surfers like Kelly’s Cove local Gary Silberstein used cornstarch or talc to help them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Silberstein has held on to one of O’Neill’s later models. The neoprene is thick and inflexible by today’s standards, but it still looks warmer than a wool sweater.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Over the years, Silberstein has put the suit through the wringer. “The wetsuit has 18 holes; it’s real leaky and cold,” he said, pointing out the tears. “You can see this has been repaired, but this would still be a functional wetsuit 50 years in.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12080277\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12080277\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/Untitled-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Jack O’Neill’s first surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco with Jack’s children, Cathy, Mike and Pat, standing in front of shop in 1957. Right: The site of the first Jack O’Neill surf shop on Wawona Street in San Francisco on April 14, 2026. The shop opened in the early 1950s and later moved to Santa Cruz in the late 1950s. \u003ccite>(Left: Courtesy of Shades of San Francisco, San Francisco Public Library. Right: Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1278\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis.jpeg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-160x102.jpeg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/1972-Dennis-1536x982.jpeg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A surfer stands at Ocean Beach in San Francisco in 1972. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Dennis O'Rorke)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops. He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles and diving headfirst into marketing. Today, O’Neill is one of the biggest surf companies out there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why you might know his name, while Bradner has largely been left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the wetsuit changed surfing\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter, and of course at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world,” Silberstein said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When he goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed. “I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water,” despite the cold.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As Jack O’Neill used to say, “When you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s a foggy day at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach … just like so many before it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Everything’s gray … cold and windy … but familiar landmarks stick out in the fog … seal rock … the Cliff House …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s the early 1950s … and the waves are roaring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Waves crashing\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> There are a few surfers paddling out. They’re wearing … shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just shorts.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>When you first went in the water, your fingers would sting and your toes would sting, and that stinging would begin to increase a little bit up your arms and so forth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jim Gallagher was part of a group of surfers who braved Northern California’s frigid waters in the early days of surfing here. A place where ocean temperature stays in the \u003ca href=\"https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/access/coastal-water-temperature-guide/all_table.html\">50s\u003c/a> for \u003ca href=\"https://www.surf-forecast.com/breaks/Ocean-Beach/seatemp\">most\u003c/a> of the year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> And then after an hour or so, that stinging would abate, and you start feeling good, well, you’re about to die, so you better get out of the water fast.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> At Ocean Beach, surfers found community and creative ways to keep warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> We became experts on hypothermia …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cu>\u003c/u>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim got into body surfing as a kid and soon found a community of surfers at Kelly’s Cove, at the north end of Ocean Beach. It was one of the earliest board and body surfing spots in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>A myth went out that somebody named Kelly died on the beach. There was a competing story that was a Foster & Kleiser sign, a big advertisement for Kelly’s tires. So people had been saying, where’s the beach, or go down to see the Kelly sign …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the early days of the sport, people surfed in wool sweaters, covered their bodies in petroleum jelly, or tried warming up from the inside with brandy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher:\u003c/strong> Guys tried almost everything. There was a theory, two or three of them started by wearing your mother’s underwear was nylon and close fit, you would get have less cloth. And that got debunked pretty quick.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The solution was quick surf sessions, maybe ride a few waves and come running back to the beach, to the bonfires.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>Typically, somebody would bring down old tires, and because tires really hold the heat. And so you could be standing 5 and 6 feet away from the fire and be quite warmed by that fire. It didn’t smell too good, but it was better than freezing to death.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>While Kelly’s Cove surfers were doing their best to outsmart the ocean … thousands of miles away, another group was having trouble with cold water too.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, the U.S. military learned the hard way that a soldier’s capacity to function in cold water could make or break an invasion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>World War II music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For the Allied forces, one of the major challenges of the war was figuring out how to land ships and soldiers on heavily fortified enemy coasts\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The concrete, metal and wood obstacles could only really be dealt with by soldiers in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The story of the United States Navy’s frogmen is a story of adventure, of brave men against the enemy and against the sea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So-called “frogmen” trained in warm-weather Florida, in mild surf … not the kind of conditions you typically find off the coast of France.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>War tape\u003c/strong>\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UDv5BUUm2A\">\u003cstrong>:\u003c/strong>\u003c/a> The weather is none too good, but the little ships are plugging onto the beaches, bringing enormous support of manpower and weapons.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>On D-Day, they deployed to Omaha Beach. And as historian Peter Westwick tells it, they were pretty poorly equipped.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And basically, they’re just wearing kind of like wool sweaters and things like that. And they suffered terribly. Their casualty rate was like 50%.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The soldiers were left exposed to enemy fire … doing precision work in cold water for a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For the US military, the whole war was one big wake-up call.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The US Navy is quickly realizing, OK, the equipment that these divers are wearing really is going to make a difference. So the Navy started thinking more about how we can improve these things.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>At the time, if you wanted to stay warm underwater … dry suits were the answer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And what the dry suit basically did was, as its name suggests, was it kept you dry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The suits were bulky. You’d bundle up in wool layers and then step into a watertight rubber shell.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even today, many scuba divers use a more advanced version of this technology.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Americans sometimes used drysuits during the war, they weren’t perfect.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>The downside was, you know, you stayed relatively warm, but they’re really hard to move around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>“Suit squeeze” was common, pinching watermen in sensitive places at the most inopportune times.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Imagine trying to disarm a bomb underwater while wearing 20 leather jackets stacked on each other. Not exactly practical combat gear.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So, what’s a Navy to do?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the war, the Navy turned to scientists for help. One man in particular seemed like a good bet — Hugh Bradner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>Bradner likes to dive, and has dived in cold water regions before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner got his PhD in physics from Caltech. During World War II, he worked on the Manhattan Project… helping the United States develop the atomic bomb.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After that, he got a job as a professor at UC Berkeley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He’s diving, swimming and playing water polo around the Bay Area. So avid kind of waterman, as we would call it now, but also a top-notch physicist.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner joined the project … working first on a different problem … a suit to protect divers from underwater explosions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He’s tinkering with these foam materials, using them like shock absorbers … and starts wondering if the foam could also help keep divers warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And then he comes in and ends up with the really fundamental contribution to this whole, this whole enterprise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>You don’t have to stay dry to stay warm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In a letter dated June 21, 1951, Bradner shared his revolutionary idea with a colleague …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Actually, I do not think it is necessary to have a waterproof suit. It should be possible to obtain adequate warmth by use of a “dead water” space from a furry type of porous material …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>There’s this really kind of central, counterintuitive insight there, before the whole assumption was that if you’re in cold water, the way you keep from getting cold is to keep the water out. The water is cold. If you keep the water out, you will stay warm. Bradner says you let the water in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Let the water in, he thought, and your body would warm it up naturally.\u003cu> \u003c/u>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And the material acts not as a barrier, but rather as an insulator. So this is really his crucial insight.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>His other big breakthrough was identifying the kind of material needed to make that happen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>When he’s looking around for materials to test, here is this material right at hand that the chemical industry is cranking out in great quantities, especially for the U.S. military.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The synthetic rubber was invented in the 1930s by chemists at DuPont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During World War II, it became an important substitute for rubber, which was hard to come by. Inventors improved on the material, making it better and more widely available … just in time for Bradner to prototype his wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>He begins testing this in 195. And he tests them in swimming pools. He tests them in Lake Tahoe, and they seem to work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>It was a novel idea and a patentable invention. Bradner’s 1951 letter describing his idea is the earliest known documentation for what would later come to be known as the wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But chances are, unless you’re a physicist or history nerd, you probably haven’t heard of Hugh Bradner. That’s because he never patented his design.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>So he says, no, no, I want to preserve my kind of objectivity here. I don’t want to be tainted with commercial bias or the perception of commercial bias … I just want to be available to advise the Navy if they want to call on me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He was a science guy … not a businessman. And as the thinking went, diving and surfing were destined to remain small niches, not places to make real money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Peter Westwick: \u003c/strong>And it’s funny, because some of the other panel members are actually writing Bradner at this time, saying, like, Dude, you’re blowing it. Like you can do both … you can be a businessman. And Brander says, like, no, no… forget it. I’m not going to patent it, and let’s just make it. Let’s just throw it out there and let people run with it, which is what happens.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Bradner had no idea that the suit he’d invented would forever change the world of surfing and water sports. More on that when we return.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you’re enjoying stories like this one, consider becoming a member of KQED. We can’t do this work without listener donations, so consider joining the hundreds of thousands of your Bay Area neighbors today. \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a> is the place to do it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re talking about the invention of the wetsuit, and its Bay Area connection. Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner came up with the idea in 1951, but he never had it patented.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It didn’t take long for the novel concept to go mainstream, thanks in part to the ingenuity and marketing prowess of a few California surfing legends.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Here’s Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Just a short time after Bradner comes up with his wetsuit, a local tinkerer at Kelly’s Cove stumbled upon a similar idea.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jim Gallagher — the guy who used to warm up by tire fires on Ocean Beach — he was friends with him: a man named Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He was a guy that was a salesman and did a bunch of different things, but he was a really curious sort of guy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Legend has it that O’Neill experimented with all kinds of interesting suit solutions. But nothing really worked. Until he, like Bradner, came across neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>He made the neoprene suit, and he made one for himself, went out and came back, and people saw that, and he said, Well, how did I get one? He said, Well, I’ll make you one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Unlike the mainstream wetsuits of today, Jack’s suits were always custom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jim Gallagher: \u003c/strong>And I remember when I went down to get mine, I went to his home. He was still living on Wawona, and his brother Bob was there. He was working for Jack, and you went in and he measured you like a tailor would … almost you know, the length of from your elbow midpoint to your wrist and up to your shoulders, around your waist or chest, arm length, legs, the whole body, and he might make a template and then cut the neoprene to that template and glue it together. And that’s how the first ones were made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As demand for his surf gear grew, O’Neill opened up a store near Ocean Beach, often thought of as one of America’s first surf shops.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He continued refining his wetsuit, rolling out new styles … and dove headfirst into marketing. At a 1956 San Francisco trade show, for instance, he dressed up his six kids in little wetsuits and threw them into tubs of ice water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Kelly’s Cove surfer Gary Silberstein remembers this time well, when the early wetsuit was gaining traction, rudimentary as they were.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> They weren’t lined, okay, with any fabric. And … use cornstarch to or talc, something to make them slip on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When I met up with Gary at his Santa Cruz home, he pulled an old O’Neill suit out to show me … like most early wetsuits, it’s just a jacket, nothing covering the legs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You are looking at Jack O’Neill. This is his logo, which is now all kind of etched away from years and years of surfing. And it’s a jacket. It’s simply a long sleeved, long sleeve jacket, pretty heavy neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The neoprene was rough … and cracked in places …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>You can see that the stitches hold the arm pieces. These are all pieces of neoprene that had to be cut before they’re stitched together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck in scene: \u003c/strong>And do you remember how much they cost back in\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>the day?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein: \u003c/strong>I’m guessing everything’s so much cheaper, probably 35-40 bucks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>I wouldn’t be surprised if Gary’s old O’Neill suit ended up in a museum one day. It’s well-preserved evidence of an invention that changed surfing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> You think of the product, and it really was the foundation of the explosion of winter surfing sports all over the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>These days, people are surfing in Iceland, British Columbia, the Great Lakes in the middle of winter… and of course, at Ocean Beach.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> And so the whole culture, the whole availability of equipment, improved enormously over those years, from, let’s say, 58 to 65 or 64 when I left Kelly’s Cove … Wet suits became very inexpensive and available, and surfboards made of foam were mass produced.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>When Gary goes out to surf on his home waves in Santa Cruz, it’s pretty much guaranteed to be packed\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Silberstein:\u003c/strong> I can go out here on a good day and see over 100 people in the water.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Due to his commercial success, O’Neill came to be known as one of the “fathers of the wetsuit.” Body Glove, an early SoCal surf and dive company, is often also given that accolade.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bradner, though, was largely left out of the popular retelling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But about 40 years after walking away from wetsuit development, Bradner began writing letters to try to clarify the history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Jack, You have lately been getting much well-deserved publicity for your invention of the surfing wetsuit. You perhaps recall that I was early in the wetsuit too, but not for surfers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>One letter recipient? Jack O’Neill.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>The enclosed xerox of my June 21, 1951, letter to Larry Marshall has the disclosure that I believe \u003cu>may\u003c/u> (underlined) have been the beginning of it all. I’d be interested to learn whether your wetsuit predates it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sincerely,\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Hugh Bradner\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Bradner’s copy of O’Neill’s reply, if one existed, isn’t in the archive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But there are a lot of other letters. All following a similar thread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over for Hugh Bradner: \u003c/strong>Dear Bill, I am enjoying very much your latest book … There is one experience in which I did participate: the wetsuit … We have there an important question of timing.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I consider this very important because if your work predates June 21, 1951, I must set about recanting my claim and fame by contacting significant people and widely read publications.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Please set my mind at rest as soon as you can.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The letter recipients, all in all, seem to have been less concerned than Bradner about clearing up the timeline.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over Willard Bascom: \u003c/strong>“Dear Hugh … History is what we remember (including you).\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>My suggestion is that you let all statements stand …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Relax and have a merry Christmas. Kindest, Willard”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Like Hugh Bradner, I did some of my own due diligence … and reached out to O’Neill and Body Glove for comment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jenna Meistrell, the granddaughter of one of Body Glove’s founders, told me the family does not believe the founders knew of Hugh Bradner, and that the company credits itself with the first commercially viable wetsuit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The O’Neill company didn’t respond to my request for comment … But they’ve got this line on their company blog.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Seeing the successful experiments of UC Berkeley physicist Hugh Bradner in the early 1950s, Jack O’Neill switched to neoprene.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Versions of this neoprene suit are everywhere these days. Now complete with gloves, booties, and a hood for the cold-weather rider. It’s a combination early Ocean Beach surfers could have only dreamed of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because, as Jack O’Neill would say, when you’re wearing a wetsuit, it’s always summer on the inside.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious reporter Gabriela Glueck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I want to let you all in on something we’ve been working on behind the scenes for the last few months! A historically-themed gaming experience at San Francisco’s Conservatory of Flowers. It’s like nothing Bay Curious had done before … and now, it’s time to invite you to join us! Come out on June 20 and 21st and explore the history of the Conservatory and the people who created it. Tickets on sale at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">KQED.org/live\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be no episode dropping next week because of the Memorial Day holiday. We’ll be back with the freshy fresh on June 4.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Since it was first unveiled in 1971, the 710-ton brutalist-style Vaillancourt Fountain has been a divisive piece of public art within San Francisco. The tangle of concrete square tubes once fit in seamlessly with the Embarcadero Freeway, a double-decker road which once ran right next to it. But nowadays it stands out against the open waterfront, and the Ferry Building across the street. On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we talk with KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti about the life of this piece of public art, which is currently being taken down by the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8752263348&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For more, read Katie’s reporting on the fountain:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081169/san-francisco-will-start-dismantling-the-vaillancourt-fountain-on-monday\">San Francisco Will Start Dismantling the Vaillancourt Fountain on Monday\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055275/this-fountain-looms-over-sfs-skateboarding-scene-a-growing-few-are-trying-to-save-it\">This Fountain Looms Over SF’s Skateboarding Scene. A Growing Few Are Trying to Save It\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping and the sounds of outside. Olivia in scene says “hi! You found me.”\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met up with this week’s question asker a short walk from her house in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi everyone! I’m Nisha and we are sitting across the street from the Ferry Building in front of this fountain statue. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re here to take a closer look at a piece of public art that has been causing quite a stir over the past few years – the 710-ton Vaillancourt Fountain. It has been compared to some pretty interesting things over the years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waterfall of voices:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Robot dog droppings.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s like Stonehenge with plumbing problems.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A loathsome monstrosity.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>Looks like Picasso’s dog took a dump.\u003cbr>\nA pile of dynamited debris.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Let’s hear how Nisha describes it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a concrete structure. It seems like a brutalist type piece, that has water flowing through it. It’s a bunch of cubes put together, sort of if you imagine a large air vent.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Picture a tangle of square concrete tubes, some of which.when the fountain is running anyway, spew water into a ground level pool. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Probably two stories tall and as wide if not wider than that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To me, it’s blockiness has a Minecraft aesthetic, and the way the water flows through the structure feels very … drainage pipe? It’s had many detractors over the years. But this fountain has big fans too.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When my son was a toddler he would insist that every time we walked past this fountain we had to go and examine it and he’d want to ask at least if he could touch the water, get in the water, splash in the water. Everything with the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s meant to be interacted with. And for decades people have enjoyed exploring it. Walking up close. Kind of walking between the different arms of the structure. But we won’t be doing that today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now there’s construction fencing around it. There’s a crane. There no more flowing water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s clear some big changes are coming for this fountain. But before we get to those, Nisha has questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the history of this structure being here in the first place and how does it overall fit in with the development of this neighborhood which is an overall different visual style than that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here to talk us through Vaillancourt’s past, present and future is Katie DeBenedetti. She covers daily news for KQED’s Express Desk. Welcome, Katie!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Let’s start with, how did the Vaillancourt Fountain come to be installed in San Francisco in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So back in the late 60s, the city commissioned Canadian sculptor Armand Vaillancourt to build this fountain. It was going to sit in the Embarcadero Plaza, which was kind of this entrance point to the city because at the time there was the city’s freeway that kind of came in along the Embarcadero near where the ferry building is now and it was a big thoroughfare for the city. There were always cars. It was bustling. It was loud. And this fountain was kind of going to like offset that. At the time, the artist said like, you know, the water, you could hear the water and it would kind of take away from the noise from the freeway. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was built of concrete and this like industrial look, so it kind of interacted with the look of the freeway. And so a number of sculptors applied to build this public art piece that was gonna go here. And the city chose Vaillancourt. It was never thought of as a universally beloved sculpture. It had a lot of detractors, Alan Temko the architecture critic for the San Francisco Chronicle was one, but also Ruth Asawa, the very famous Bay Area artist. Others, like Lawrence Halpern, who actually designed the Embarcadero Plaza where it sits, thought that this sculpture could become a world-famous piece of art though.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tell me more about the artist and what he was going for with this fountain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Armand Vaillancourt is a Canadian sculptor. He’s still alive. He’s 96. And this is one of his most prominent works. I think part of it was inspired by, you know, brutalism at the time. It is very bare, it’s concrete. You know, his son, I spoke to his son Alexis, and he said in the original designs, actually the water that would flow through the fountain was designed to be able to like at sometimes flow faster or release more water and then release less. Like it was very interactive with the water aspect of the fountain. And one really interesting thing about the fountain’s legacy is actually that the night before it debuted, it kind of came to be tied with the Vaillancourt’s own political activism. He spray painted it “Quebec Libre” in big red letters the night before it was dedicated. And this was in support of Quebec sovereignty movement, kind of splintering off from Canada. And at the time he told reporters that he wanted to dedicate the fountain to all freedom in Quebec and Vietnam, East Pakistan, just all over the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Vaillancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a piece that you have to think, you know, when you see it and you might not find it beautiful, but this is not the point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I talked to Alexis Vaillancourt , who’s Armand Vaillancourt’s son.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Vaillancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Any piece of art in public space will be ugly or beautiful for someone. We don’t have all the same taste, we don’t come from the same place, so we have different ideas about what is beauty and it also changes to time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then things seem to settle down for a while with the fountain. People walk by it, they explore it, it maybe becomes a bit part of the landscape. But then in 1987 – some 16 years after it was unveiled – it found its way into the headlines again. What was it this time?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in November of that year, U2 was coming to the Bay Area on tour. They were going to be performing in Oakland and they decided kind of last minute to host this secret free concert in front of the Vaillancourt Fountain, performing in flatbed trucks. And people, you know, found out just hours before, swarmed down, showed up to the concert. During the concert, Bono tagged the fountain. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Clip of Bono from concert:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> “Rock and Roll Stops the Traffic”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He wrote “rock and roll stop the traffic” on fountain. And he ended up getting cited by Mayor Dianne Feinstein for the graffiti. And this led to a lot of outrage on both sides. So, Vaillancourt himself was not really very upset. He actually came out to the Bay Area, came to the U2 concert in Oakland later that week, and he defended Bono and like painted on stage like a backdrop with him.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return – the fountain picks up some unexpected supporters. And the city’s plans to bring it down. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A few years after the U2 Concert incident, the Loma Prieta earthquake strikes, and it damages the double-decker freeway that was along the Embarcadero, that was in the background of the Vaillancourt Fountain. And like we said earlier, that had sort of interacted with the sculpture visually. And so with no freeway there, the sculpture starts to look a little more out of place maybe than when it was first built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, at least that’s what people started to say. I mean, again, some people already really didn’t like it, but now there was this kind of reason. It’s like, okay, well, the freeway isn’t there anymore. Do we need this sculpture? What, you know, it looks kind of out of place. Why is it here? You know, what’s its purpose?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Vaillancout Fountain has always had some supporters in the art world, some anyway. But along the way also picked up sort of some unlikely fans? Can you tell us about how skateboarders came to love this piece of art?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so in the early 90s skateboarders started to take a real interest in the Embarcadero Plaza and that’s because it’s this big brick plaza but it had at the time blocky concrete steps, it had a lot of curved ledges. And so pro skaters started to come here and they say they really developed modern street skating at the Embarcadero Plaza. At the time, they had been, you know, skating in empty pools or skate parks, and they started to create new skate moves based on the architecture at Embarcado Plaza. The Vaillancourt Fountain was not skated, really, but one of the big, you know, skaters, but also photographer, videographer at the time in this movement, Jacob Rosenberg, I spoke to him and he said it was like the touchstone of the spot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jacob Rosenberg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think the fountain was this unique object that always anchored the spot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in the backdrop of all the videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jacob Rosenberg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Skateboarding is always a sort of counterculture movement. And I feel personally that the fountain embodies that. It’s an idea that may be different. I think it takes time to understand and appreciate it. And I think, it has a beautiful kinship with the spirit of skateboarding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that gets us really to the modern era. So in recent years, there have arisen some concerns about the fountain. Catch us up on some of that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so there have always been concerns about the water flow. Like it would kind of get gross with algae. It sometimes looked green or brown. The water had to be shut off intermittently throughout the years due to droughts or during the energy crisis. But in 2024, the last water pump that pushed water through the fountain broke and it’s been dry since then. They have not repaired it. And then last year, the city commissioned a report just assessing the fountain and it found major deterioration, corrosion. They said some of the parts, like some of the arms of the structure were bearing weight that they shouldn’t be. Tamara Apperton is a spokesperson for San Francisco’s Rec and Park Department.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamara Apperton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is structurally compromised. This isn’t, we’re not talking cosmetic wear. It’s structural degradation that worsens over time. And the risks are really unpredictable. So pieces can fall without warning, especially with an earthquake or heavy public use nearby. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It also found that there was asbestos and lead in the structure. So since last summer there’s been fencing around the fountain blocking access. And then this past fall the city actually got permission to expedite its removal saying it posed an imminent risk to public safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the year before these safety concerns came out, back in November 2024, plans for a new waterfront park start to circulate, and people notice that the fountain is not in any of them. So it seems like the idea to remove this fountain has been kind of knocking around for at least several years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was this renovation plan that came out and it had big grassy expanses and it was going to connect to Sue Bierman Park which is nearby and have entertainment space and you know outdoor dining. But the fountain was notably not in those designs, so it seems like it was already going to be removed. But what the fountain supporters are arguing is that it should have and would have had to go through a full California Environmental Quality Act review process. CEQA is what that process is referred to by most people. And it’s required for most building projects in California, but also land use, zoning changes, and it’s triggered when there are going to be changes affecting historic resources like the Vaillancourt Fountain. It’s a long and kind of cumbersome process. You have to do an initial study. If it is going to affect the environment, you have to write this report about how to mitigate the damage. And also there’s a lot of public participation. People are allowed to come and voice their concerns and weigh in on whether or not this project should be allowed to move forward. And it opens up a lot of space for litigation as well to kind of slow or halt these projects. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know fans of The Fountain have been fighting back. They’re not wanting to kind of stand by and just see this thing taken down. What are they arguing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there’s this coalition that’s formed, they call themselves The Friends of the Plaza, and it’s led by some art and landscape groups, Docomomo/US Northern California, The Cultural Landscape Foundation, and then also, you know, these skateboarders, some other just residents who are fans of the fountain. And they are arguing that the fountain should have to go through this whole CEQA review process before it can be removed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Brandt-Hawley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s been there 50 years and it needs repairs and renovations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Susan Brant-Howley is representing the Friends of the Plaza in their legal case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Brandt-Hawley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, the city hasn’t maintained it, but there’s no emergency. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They think that the city has kind of manufactured an emergency to get around doing that. They’ve gone to the courts and they have a pending legal case basically asking a judge to require that there be a CEQA review before this fountain can be disassembled.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So is there any chance that they could still halt the removal of Vaillancourt Fountain?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Halt the removal? Probably not. The city has now started its removal process, but the Friends of the Plaza does have this pending legal case, and they are expecting a trial on that case this summer. But a judge denied the group’s request for a temporary order that would have halted the removal in the meantime until that trial happens, which tells us a couple things. On one hand, it could kind of indicate that the judge doesn’t think the case is likely to succeed, but the more immediate consequence is, you know, the city now has nothing standing in its path to move forward with the removal. So they’ve brought in big cherry pickers, they have a crane, and they’re really taking apart the pieces of this fountain now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it’s deconstructed, do you know, is it being saved somewhere? Could this like show up in the future at a skate park or something like that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s going to be stored at least for a couple of years. And a spokesperson for the city attorney’s office told me they’re going to able to do more of an evaluation of the damage and kind of consider options of whether a pair or a restoration is gonna be possible.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alright. Katie DiBenedetti covers daily news for KQED’s Express Desk. Thanks, Katie. Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I took all this back to our question asker, Nisha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I gotta say I respect the amount of work that the artist put into this and the vision at the time. I do feel the disappointment that someone must feel putting this much effort into a city structure and then it coming down after so many years up. But I can see that progress sometimes involves change. And I think that’s what the city is seeing as well.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks Nisha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Small donations from everyday people keep the lights on at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you can, donate and and support podcasts like ours at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, CHristopher Beale, and me Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Since it was first unveiled in 1971, the 710-ton brutalist-style Vaillancourt Fountain has been a divisive piece of public art within San Francisco. The tangle of concrete square tubes once fit in seamlessly with the Embarcadero Freeway, a double-decker road which once ran right next to it. But nowadays it stands out against the open waterfront, and the Ferry Building across the street. On today’s episode of Bay Curious, we talk with KQED’s Katie DeBenedetti about the life of this piece of public art, which is currently being taken down by the city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" frameborder=\"0\" height=\"200\" scrolling=\"no\" src=\"https://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC8752263348&light=true\" width=\"100%\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For more, read Katie’s reporting on the fountain:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cul>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12081169/san-francisco-will-start-dismantling-the-vaillancourt-fountain-on-monday\">San Francisco Will Start Dismantling the Vaillancourt Fountain on Monday\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12055275/this-fountain-looms-over-sfs-skateboarding-scene-a-growing-few-are-trying-to-save-it\">This Fountain Looms Over SF’s Skateboarding Scene. A Growing Few Are Trying to Save It\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping and the sounds of outside. Olivia in scene says “hi! You found me.”\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\n\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I met up with this week’s question asker a short walk from her house in San Francisco.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hi everyone! I’m Nisha and we are sitting across the street from the Ferry Building in front of this fountain statue. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re here to take a closer look at a piece of public art that has been causing quite a stir over the past few years – the 710-ton Vaillancourt Fountain. It has been compared to some pretty interesting things over the years. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Waterfall of voices:\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Robot dog droppings.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s like Stonehenge with plumbing problems.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A loathsome monstrosity.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>Looks like Picasso’s dog took a dump.\u003cbr>\nA pile of dynamited debris.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Let’s hear how Nisha describes it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a concrete structure. It seems like a brutalist type piece, that has water flowing through it. It’s a bunch of cubes put together, sort of if you imagine a large air vent.\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Picture a tangle of square concrete tubes, some of which.when the fountain is running anyway, spew water into a ground level pool. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Probably two stories tall and as wide if not wider than that. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">To me, it’s blockiness has a Minecraft aesthetic, and the way the water flows through the structure feels very … drainage pipe? It’s had many detractors over the years. But this fountain has big fans too.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When my son was a toddler he would insist that every time we walked past this fountain we had to go and examine it and he’d want to ask at least if he could touch the water, get in the water, splash in the water. Everything with the water.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s meant to be interacted with. And for decades people have enjoyed exploring it. Walking up close. Kind of walking between the different arms of the structure. But we won’t be doing that today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now there’s construction fencing around it. There’s a crane. There no more flowing water. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s clear some big changes are coming for this fountain. But before we get to those, Nisha has questions…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What is the history of this structure being here in the first place and how does it overall fit in with the development of this neighborhood which is an overall different visual style than that? \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Here to talk us through Vaillancourt’s past, present and future is Katie DeBenedetti. She covers daily news for KQED’s Express Desk. Welcome, Katie!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Thank you for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. Let’s start with, how did the Vaillancourt Fountain come to be installed in San Francisco in the first place?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So back in the late 60s, the city commissioned Canadian sculptor Armand Vaillancourt to build this fountain. It was going to sit in the Embarcadero Plaza, which was kind of this entrance point to the city because at the time there was the city’s freeway that kind of came in along the Embarcadero near where the ferry building is now and it was a big thoroughfare for the city. There were always cars. It was bustling. It was loud. And this fountain was kind of going to like offset that. At the time, the artist said like, you know, the water, you could hear the water and it would kind of take away from the noise from the freeway. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was built of concrete and this like industrial look, so it kind of interacted with the look of the freeway. And so a number of sculptors applied to build this public art piece that was gonna go here. And the city chose Vaillancourt. It was never thought of as a universally beloved sculpture. It had a lot of detractors, Alan Temko the architecture critic for the San Francisco Chronicle was one, but also Ruth Asawa, the very famous Bay Area artist. Others, like Lawrence Halpern, who actually designed the Embarcadero Plaza where it sits, thought that this sculpture could become a world-famous piece of art though.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Tell me more about the artist and what he was going for with this fountain.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So Armand Vaillancourt is a Canadian sculptor. He’s still alive. He’s 96. And this is one of his most prominent works. I think part of it was inspired by, you know, brutalism at the time. It is very bare, it’s concrete. You know, his son, I spoke to his son Alexis, and he said in the original designs, actually the water that would flow through the fountain was designed to be able to like at sometimes flow faster or release more water and then release less. Like it was very interactive with the water aspect of the fountain. And one really interesting thing about the fountain’s legacy is actually that the night before it debuted, it kind of came to be tied with the Vaillancourt’s own political activism. He spray painted it “Quebec Libre” in big red letters the night before it was dedicated. And this was in support of Quebec sovereignty movement, kind of splintering off from Canada. And at the time he told reporters that he wanted to dedicate the fountain to all freedom in Quebec and Vietnam, East Pakistan, just all over the world.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Vaillancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is a piece that you have to think, you know, when you see it and you might not find it beautiful, but this is not the point.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I talked to Alexis Vaillancourt , who’s Armand Vaillancourt’s son.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Alexis Vaillancourt: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Any piece of art in public space will be ugly or beautiful for someone. We don’t have all the same taste, we don’t come from the same place, so we have different ideas about what is beauty and it also changes to time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then things seem to settle down for a while with the fountain. People walk by it, they explore it, it maybe becomes a bit part of the landscape. But then in 1987 – some 16 years after it was unveiled – it found its way into the headlines again. What was it this time?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in November of that year, U2 was coming to the Bay Area on tour. They were going to be performing in Oakland and they decided kind of last minute to host this secret free concert in front of the Vaillancourt Fountain, performing in flatbed trucks. And people, you know, found out just hours before, swarmed down, showed up to the concert. During the concert, Bono tagged the fountain. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/b>\u003cb>Clip of Bono from concert:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> “Rock and Roll Stops the Traffic”\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He wrote “rock and roll stop the traffic” on fountain. And he ended up getting cited by Mayor Dianne Feinstein for the graffiti. And this led to a lot of outrage on both sides. So, Vaillancourt himself was not really very upset. He actually came out to the Bay Area, came to the U2 concert in Oakland later that week, and he defended Bono and like painted on stage like a backdrop with him.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We’re going to take a quick break, but when we return – the fountain picks up some unexpected supporters. And the city’s plans to bring it down. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A few years after the U2 Concert incident, the Loma Prieta earthquake strikes, and it damages the double-decker freeway that was along the Embarcadero, that was in the background of the Vaillancourt Fountain. And like we said earlier, that had sort of interacted with the sculpture visually. And so with no freeway there, the sculpture starts to look a little more out of place maybe than when it was first built. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, at least that’s what people started to say. I mean, again, some people already really didn’t like it, but now there was this kind of reason. It’s like, okay, well, the freeway isn’t there anymore. Do we need this sculpture? What, you know, it looks kind of out of place. Why is it here? You know, what’s its purpose?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Vaillancout Fountain has always had some supporters in the art world, some anyway. But along the way also picked up sort of some unlikely fans? Can you tell us about how skateboarders came to love this piece of art?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so in the early 90s skateboarders started to take a real interest in the Embarcadero Plaza and that’s because it’s this big brick plaza but it had at the time blocky concrete steps, it had a lot of curved ledges. And so pro skaters started to come here and they say they really developed modern street skating at the Embarcadero Plaza. At the time, they had been, you know, skating in empty pools or skate parks, and they started to create new skate moves based on the architecture at Embarcado Plaza. The Vaillancourt Fountain was not skated, really, but one of the big, you know, skaters, but also photographer, videographer at the time in this movement, Jacob Rosenberg, I spoke to him and he said it was like the touchstone of the spot. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jacob Rosenberg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think the fountain was this unique object that always anchored the spot.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it was in the backdrop of all the videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jacob Rosenberg: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Skateboarding is always a sort of counterculture movement. And I feel personally that the fountain embodies that. It’s an idea that may be different. I think it takes time to understand and appreciate it. And I think, it has a beautiful kinship with the spirit of skateboarding.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that gets us really to the modern era. So in recent years, there have arisen some concerns about the fountain. Catch us up on some of that.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, so there have always been concerns about the water flow. Like it would kind of get gross with algae. It sometimes looked green or brown. The water had to be shut off intermittently throughout the years due to droughts or during the energy crisis. But in 2024, the last water pump that pushed water through the fountain broke and it’s been dry since then. They have not repaired it. And then last year, the city commissioned a report just assessing the fountain and it found major deterioration, corrosion. They said some of the parts, like some of the arms of the structure were bearing weight that they shouldn’t be. Tamara Apperton is a spokesperson for San Francisco’s Rec and Park Department.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Tamara Apperton: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is structurally compromised. This isn’t, we’re not talking cosmetic wear. It’s structural degradation that worsens over time. And the risks are really unpredictable. So pieces can fall without warning, especially with an earthquake or heavy public use nearby. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It also found that there was asbestos and lead in the structure. So since last summer there’s been fencing around the fountain blocking access. And then this past fall the city actually got permission to expedite its removal saying it posed an imminent risk to public safety. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But the year before these safety concerns came out, back in November 2024, plans for a new waterfront park start to circulate, and people notice that the fountain is not in any of them. So it seems like the idea to remove this fountain has been kind of knocking around for at least several years.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There was this renovation plan that came out and it had big grassy expanses and it was going to connect to Sue Bierman Park which is nearby and have entertainment space and you know outdoor dining. But the fountain was notably not in those designs, so it seems like it was already going to be removed. But what the fountain supporters are arguing is that it should have and would have had to go through a full California Environmental Quality Act review process. CEQA is what that process is referred to by most people. And it’s required for most building projects in California, but also land use, zoning changes, and it’s triggered when there are going to be changes affecting historic resources like the Vaillancourt Fountain. It’s a long and kind of cumbersome process. You have to do an initial study. If it is going to affect the environment, you have to write this report about how to mitigate the damage. And also there’s a lot of public participation. People are allowed to come and voice their concerns and weigh in on whether or not this project should be allowed to move forward. And it opens up a lot of space for litigation as well to kind of slow or halt these projects. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I know fans of The Fountain have been fighting back. They’re not wanting to kind of stand by and just see this thing taken down. What are they arguing?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So there’s this coalition that’s formed, they call themselves The Friends of the Plaza, and it’s led by some art and landscape groups, Docomomo/US Northern California, The Cultural Landscape Foundation, and then also, you know, these skateboarders, some other just residents who are fans of the fountain. And they are arguing that the fountain should have to go through this whole CEQA review process before it can be removed.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Brandt-Hawley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s been there 50 years and it needs repairs and renovations.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Susan Brant-Howley is representing the Friends of the Plaza in their legal case.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Susan Brandt-Hawley: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, the city hasn’t maintained it, but there’s no emergency. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They think that the city has kind of manufactured an emergency to get around doing that. They’ve gone to the courts and they have a pending legal case basically asking a judge to require that there be a CEQA review before this fountain can be disassembled.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So is there any chance that they could still halt the removal of Vaillancourt Fountain?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Halt the removal? Probably not. The city has now started its removal process, but the Friends of the Plaza does have this pending legal case, and they are expecting a trial on that case this summer. But a judge denied the group’s request for a temporary order that would have halted the removal in the meantime until that trial happens, which tells us a couple things. On one hand, it could kind of indicate that the judge doesn’t think the case is likely to succeed, but the more immediate consequence is, you know, the city now has nothing standing in its path to move forward with the removal. So they’ve brought in big cherry pickers, they have a crane, and they’re really taking apart the pieces of this fountain now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When it’s deconstructed, do you know, is it being saved somewhere? Could this like show up in the future at a skate park or something like that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Katie DeBenedetti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s going to be stored at least for a couple of years. And a spokesperson for the city attorney’s office told me they’re going to able to do more of an evaluation of the damage and kind of consider options of whether a pair or a restoration is gonna be possible.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Alright. Katie DiBenedetti covers daily news for KQED’s Express Desk. Thanks, Katie. Thanks for having me.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I took all this back to our question asker, Nisha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I gotta say I respect the amount of work that the artist put into this and the vision at the time. I do feel the disappointment that someone must feel putting this much effort into a city structure and then it coming down after so many years up. But I can see that progress sometimes involves change. And I think that’s what the city is seeing as well.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks Nisha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Nisha: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Small donations from everyday people keep the lights on at KQED. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you can, donate and and support podcasts like ours at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, CHristopher Beale, and me Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED. Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. San Francisco Northern California Local. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "a-vinyl-found-in-san-francisco-contains-echoes-of-a-filipino-american-love-story",
"title": "A Vinyl Found in San Francisco Contains Echoes of a Filipino American Love Story",
"publishDate": 1778148045,
"format": "audio",
"headTitle": "A Vinyl Found in San Francisco Contains Echoes of a Filipino American Love Story | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jess Garcia has a little game she and her husband like to play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ll enjoy a big pitcher of margaritas on Valencia Street in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. One day, they were rummaging through the vinyls when they found an album that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cover had hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks, including cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, and the Golden Gate Bridge — all circling a portrait of a Filipino couple wearing a blue suit and a white lace dress. The album title was etched across the top in thick black letters: \u003cem>Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We didn’t really understand what type of album this was at first,” Garcia said. Her first impression was that it was a 50th anniversary album given to their guests as gifts. But when she rushed home to play the record, she realized it was something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[When] the music started playing, it just had this really nostalgic feeling to it,” she said. “Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081475\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081475\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Memorabilia from Cora and Santos Beloy, including a 45 rpm record, photographs and album materials, are arranged together in San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Garcia did a little research and discovered the Beloys recorded their album at \u003ca href=\"https://www.hydestreet.com/history.html\">Wally Heider Studio\u003c/a>, which had once hosted iconic Bay Area bands like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, and the Grateful Dead. Garcia had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indeed, a simple internet search of Cora and Santos Beloy doesn’t yield much information. There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but nothing about Santos’ funeral. You might also find a smattering of Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. On the surface, it all feels pretty mundane. But then you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music, especially their rendition of the classic Filipino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>” — an anthem among Filipinos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDyY7o5weu-YE&start_radio=1\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation. According to Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr, this arrangement was a kind of role reversal because Cora was fluent in Tagalog and Santos was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She could sing in seven languages, and Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song,” Sherr said. “So when you say that opposites attract, I think that they were meant to be together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos also grew up in dramatically different ways. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, while Santos was raised in San Francisco’s Fillmore District. Cora sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. Santos was a young soprano who sang on the radio. Cora immigrated to the US alone at 18, while Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their paths crossed in the early 1950s when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. One night, she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember her saying, ‘Once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it,’” Sherr said. “It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12070415 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/20251221_JohnColtraneChurch_December_GH-15_qed.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos shared the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together, Sherr said. They had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own, and a little whistle to catch each other’s attention at parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines so Santos could meet Cora’s family. While there, Cora, under her maiden name “Cora Delfino,” recorded a handful of songs with her brother, who was a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, she became a star. Songs like “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPgSFXm9DeI&list=RDHPgSFXm9DeI&start_radio=1\">Silver Moon\u003c/a>” took over Manila airwaves, and her single “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep,” said Sherr. “I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora’s singing aligned with the \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4FlxtqjkBY0tKRUUdjAcEb\">classic kundiman style\u003c/a>, a type of Filipino music — mostly smooth, romantic ballads — sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist by singing in English, a common trend applied to Filipino folk songs at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s something about her songs,” Sherr said. “The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Truly a performer’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When Cora and Santos returned to San Francisco, Cora didn’t try to leverage her mega-hit in the Philippines into a flashy music career stateside. Instead, she prioritized motherhood. Cora was already pregnant with Sherr’s older brother, Chris Beloy, by the time she and Santos returned from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America, working on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along a few years after Chris.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs, Cora never stopped playing music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She was just truly a performer,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora once confessed a secret to Cissy about this time when the kids were young. While Sherr and her brother were in school, Cora would get dressed up and sneak out to perform for the shoppers at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians. That surprised Sherr, who had no idea of her mom’s secret performances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out,” Cissy said. “Maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know? Maybe her love of singing … she got to do that as well as be a mom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mall gigs were also surprising to Sherr because at the time, her mom was getting offers for other glamorous, high-profile jobs. At one point, the comedian Phyllis Diller approached Cora for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in San Francisco called \u003ca href=\"https://www.comedyhistory101.com/comedy-history-101/2019/3/4/history-of-the-purple-onion-comedy-club-in-san-francisco\">The Purple Onion\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Cissy said her mother turned the job down, claiming it would interfere with her ability to be present with her family. Instead, Cora only took the so-called “casuals,” referring to gigs that were short-term and close to home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her niche became performing at local hotels, the lead vocalist for big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never got to see her perform because I was just too little,” Sherr said. “I got to see her get dressed. That was the show for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Depending on the night, Cora would don Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Sherr’s favorite, though, was her mom’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000544/\">Carmen Miranda\u003c/a> outfit, a reference to the Brazilian pop star famous for wearing a massive hat with fake fruit piled on top. “I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her father, Santos, loved the spotlight as much as Cora. Back then he would work a full day, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit and join his wife onstage. Over the years, Cora and Santos played restaurants, weddings, and anniversary parties. In 1964, they even decided to record their music. This record had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To this day people tell me ‘Oh, Cora and Santos, ‘Dahil Sa Iyo,’ that was my favorite,’” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081486\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081486\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora Beloy poses with fellow musicians. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Beloys worked on the record with Tom Spinosa, a bandleader who had opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa is the one typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t really want to give him credit because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though her parents loved everybody, they had no desire to work with Spinosa again, Sherr said. Even now, she has a feeling that Spinosa could have helped put her parents on the map in a bigger way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did,” she said. “Here’s my impression, they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, ‘Okay, we did it for the love of music.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos doubled down on their love of music, expanding their reach as a family band around the state, and even performing on cruise ships around the world. Eventually, Cora and Santos landed their most iconic gig as the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Performing alongside stars\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1940s to the 1970s, the Fairmont was a nightly destination for live music. Some of the world’s biggest stars performed at the hotel’s Venetian Room, including Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">famously sang\u003c/a> “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed five nights a week at the New Orleans Room, a cocktail lounge adjacent to the Venetian Room. Its high profile location allowed them to befriend people such as Tony Bennett himself.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ysw4svDmcxc\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sherr’s godsister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, still remembers arriving at the Beloys’ house for dinner one night, decades ago, to find the music legend sitting in the Beloys’ living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Tony Bennett] just hung out and we were all laughing” she said. “We had Auntie’s chili; she made lumpias and she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.” And to top it all off, Cora Santos and Tony Bennet played a duet at the living room piano. Ofalsa-Nutter also said that she’d witnessed a similar experience with The Lettermen, whose lead singer \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0124650/bio/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm\">Tony Butala\u003c/a> became a good friend to the Beloys. And one night while performing at the Fairmont, the Beloys invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving the level of mega stardom that surrounded them, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous,” especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Polynesian-themed tiki bar, the Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed their showstopping set on a barge that floated over the Tonga Rooms’s indoor swimming pool, as a synthetic thunderstorm poured around them. Cora knew how to work a crowd, and Santos entranced the audience by playing multiple instruments at once. The performance was so elaborate, it garnered a kind of cult following. One of their fans included the man their niece, Ange Beloy Wesley, was dating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He went in there once and saw them, and so he just kept going back,” Wesley said. She hadn’t known that her now-husband was a fan of her aunt and uncle until she introduced them for the first time. “‘[Are they] the little Filipino couple on the boat,’” she recalled him asking her. “He’s going, ‘They are a bad ass couple!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081484\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081484\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora and Santos Beloy performing the traditional Filipino bamboo dance. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wesley’s husband wasn’t the only one taken by Cora and Santos. Sherr said that more than once, her parents would return from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who had jumped into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though Sherr remembers these performances with nostalgia, she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job at the bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It must have been hard to come home, power nap, and then go 9 to 1 at the Fairmont Hotel,” she said. “I think a lot of it he did for Mom because it was Mom’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building community out of music\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Aside from music, Sherr said her mom’s other dream was to have a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church, several blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset. In the early 1960s, Cora and Santos became advisors for the church teen program, chaperoning dozens of kids to bowling nights and ski trips. Cora also ran the children’s choir, and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There weren’t any Filipinos – very few Filipino people in the parish,” Sherr said. “So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people,” Cissy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, Cora and Santos also provided music lessons to countless children around the neighborhood. Oftentimes, the couple would give away instruments for free, just to ensure their students had access to music all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, they also taught music to their family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had specific lessons. They made sure of that,” said Cora and Santos’ niece, Chelle Lindahl. “There was a set time and then we practiced every day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl’s parents divorced when she was about 8 years old. Soon after, her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed raising three young girls. So Lindahl and her sisters, including Wesley, went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They took on the parent roles,” Lindahl said. “They had two children of their own, and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that … That was incredibly generous on their part.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Auntie and uncle had taken over so fiercely,” Wesley agreed. “We were living in a good environment, we were fed and clothed, and all our needs were met.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl and Wesley said that their aunt and uncle made them feel special during a time when they especially needed love and tending to. They performed alongside Cora and Santos at weddings and The Tonga Room. And Cora, who had begun writing jingles for local businesses, invited the girls to record what she had written for a popular local burger chain — Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life,” said Lindahl. “Just no way. And it was just them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Recording an album on their own terms\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, after several years performing at the Fairmont Hotel, Cora and Santos released their only full-length record — In Baghdad By The Bay. The title is a reference to a nickname for San Francisco given by beloved \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> columnist \u003ca href=\"https://www.norcalmediamuseum.org/?page_id=218\">Herb Caen\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Beloys decided to produce this record on their own terms — no middlemen — under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover and invited local musicians to perform with them. Lindahl and Wesley recalled celebrating the album’s release at Cora and Santos’ home in the Inner Sunset.“That was a big, big deal,” Lindahl said. “But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. They were beautiful together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know, Mom just sadly carried on,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081474\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081474\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(From left) Ange Westly, Cissy Sherr and Tisha Nutter, relatives of Cora and Santos Beloy, are photographed with the album In Baghdad By the Bay in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But Cora never stopped performing, taking the stage at nursing homes, birthday parties, and anywhere else she could get her hands on a microphone. Into her nineties, Cora would ask to play the piano at restaurants with in-house entertainment, rather than eat her food. Cora performed her last song in 2022, just weeks before she passed away at 93-years-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical careers in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names, but that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them. They wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sherr acknowledged that people may not have stories about “the famous Cora and Santos,” but they do have stories about the generous couple who wouldn’t accept payment for playing at a wedding or the skillful teachers who instilled a love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos Beloy were legends at the Tonga Room and larger than life figures at home. Their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jess Garcia, has a little game she and her husband like to play…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>They’ll enjoy a big ole pitcher of margaritas on Valencia St in San Francisco, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. They were rummaging through the vinyls one day when they saw something that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>So when we saw this album, obviously it attracted our attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The album cover has these hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks. Cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge – and they’re all circling this portrait of a Filipino couple. It looks like a wedding photo from the 70s or 80s, maybe. He’s in a blue suit with a purple ruffled shirt underneath. She’s in a white lace dress. And in thick black letters, the album title reads “Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>We didn’t really understand like what type of album this was at first. My first impression was that, like maybe it was like a 50th anniversary album that, like they gave out to like friends and family with like just like their favorite songs on it which I thought was like such a cute idea. And then we actually did kind of rush home because we were eager to listen to the album. So when we put it on and the music started playing it just had this like really nostalgic feeling to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>The very first track is Spanish Eyes. And you know, a couple of seconds into the track, Cora and Santos start singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” in the clear: “Spanish Eyes. Teardrops are falling from your Spanish Eyes.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I just thought they were so sweet and I’ve never, you know, I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The couple recorded at a studio called Wally Heider. Some other Iconic Bay Area bands have recorded there. Like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead. Jess had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Jess is right, if you search the names “Cora and Santos Beloy,” you probably won’t find much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Reporter Asal Ehsanipour loves a good mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but not much about Santos’ funeral. A few Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. It all feels pretty mundane. But then… you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And music was everything to this couple. Today we’re digging into the lives and legacy…big and small…of Cora and Santos Beloy. Take it away, Asal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>The song that comes up most is Cora and Santos Beloy’s biggest hit – a rendition of the classic Filippino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Dahil Sa Iyo” in the clear for a moment \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Dahil Sa Iyo is a kind of anthem among Filipinos. Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation… It’s a kind of role reversal – because Cora was fluent in Tagalog, and Santos wasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She could sing in seven languages, // And Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So, when you say that opposites attract, in some ways, I think that they were meant to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s parents were also opposite in the way they’d grown up. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, Santos was raised in the Fillmore. She sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. He was a young soprano, who sang on the radio. Cora was an immigrant, Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So dad grew up so different from mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Their paths finally crossed in the early 50s, when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. And one night… she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I remember her saying, “once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos’ song “Hawaiian Wedding Song” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I knew that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos were crazy about each other. Cissy says it was the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together… The kind where they had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own… and a little whistle so they could get each other’s attention at a party. .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines, so Santos could meet Cora’s family. And while they were there, Cora recorded a handful of songs with her brother – a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, Cora became a star.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Her single, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>,” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 50s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora Delphino singing: “My Song of Love”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep. I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora’s singing was very much in the classic kundiman style. A type of Filipino music – mostly smooth, romantic ballads – sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist, singing in English.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There’s something about her songs. The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Despite her mega hit in the Phillipines, Cora didn’t try to leverage her success into a flashy music career back in San Francisco. Instead, she immediately shifted into mom mode. This was the 1950s. Corae was already pregnant by the time she and Santos got back from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco, and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America. He worked on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along 14 months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs – Cora never stopped playing music. \u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She was like just truly a performer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora once told Cissy a secret about this time. When the kids were in school, she confessed almost wistfully… that she’d sneak out and perform at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>They’d pick her up, bring her down to the mall and they’d be all set up for her to sing for the shoppers going through the mall.I would get home before you did and we never knew she did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy had always thought her mom was doing the dishes and baking cookies while she was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out, maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know. Maybe her love of singing, she got to do that as well as be a mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But it wasn’t just mall jobs. Cora also got offers for glamorous, higher profile jobs. At one point, Cissy said her mom had been approached by the comedian Phyllis Diller for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in the city, called The Purple Onion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I do remember that, because Phylliss Diller, she’s famous, you know. Oh, but mommy’s not gonna do that because that means she won’t be home to cook dinner for us\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Instead, Cora took the so-called “casuals.” Gigs that were short-term and close to home. She started performing at local hotels, singing with the big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Big band music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh… my mom sounded great with a big band.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Those huge jazz ensembles – a dozen or more musicians packed onstage together playing a big brassy sound. This was Cora’s niche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> I never got to see her perform because I was just too little, you know. I got to see her get dressed that was the show for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Depending on the night, Cora would dress in Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Cissy’s favorite, though, was her mom’s Carmen Miranda outfit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Because that big hat had a whole bowl of fruit on the top. And I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>And Santos loved the spotlight as much as Cora. He would work a full day at the bank, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit – and join his wife on stage. And eventually… once the kids got older… they became the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This was during the Fairmont’s heyday… back when it was a nightly destination for live music. The main attraction was the Venetian Room, a glamorous concert hall where some of the world’s biggest stars performed – people like Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett. In fact, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">Tony Bennett first sang “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency at the Venetian Room.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tony Bennet singing “I Left My Heart In San Francisco”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>And then there was, uh, I think there was a little lounge on each side. There was one to the right, a cocktail lounge with live music. And that’s the one mom and dad played in. And it was called the New Orleans Room. And I feel like it was kind of a staging or maybe a waiting area for either if you couldn’t get tickets for the main show or you were waiting to go in that main show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This regular gig adjacent to the Venetian Room meant Cora and Santos befriended all kinds of people. Including…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Tony, just Tony.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s god sister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, is talking about that very same Tony Bennett. She still remembers one night, decades ago, when her Auntie Cora invited the family over for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Just come on over, it’s Monday. Except Tony Bennett was sitting there in the living room. And he just hung out and we were all just laughing. We had Auntie’s chili. She made lumpias and // it was like she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Except on this night, Cora sang a duet with Tony Bennet at the piano in her living room. Casual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>And this not only happened with Tony Bennett, this happened with The Letterman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos became longtime friends with the pop group’s lead singer, Tony Butala. One night, they invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving THAT level of stardom, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous” … especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Rumbling music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>For the uninitiated, The Tonga Room is a Polynesian-themed tiki bar known for extravagant umbrella drinks and an indoor thunderstorm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>When they were about to come out and perform, they would start this thunder and lightning. And then the rain would start coming down. And there would be Auntie Cora, Uncle Santos and they would be on this barge and the barge would come out on this little waterway then the rain would stop and then they would start performing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos start singing: “When I Hear the Church Bells Ringing”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it was just gobsmacking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>This is Chelle Lindahl, Cora and Santos’ niece.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl:\u003c/strong> I know we were just all like, oh, oh my God, look at this. And then Auntie and Uncle are on this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>People would go to the Tonga Room FOR Cora and Santos…they had a bit of a cult following.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora knew how to work a crowd. And when Santos sang… you couldn’t help but pay attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos song “Now That Summer Is Gone” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh, he’s so fun. My dad had this way of playing like three instruments at once. Like three quarters of a one-man band. It was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says that more than once, her parents would come from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who got a little too swept up in the music, and would jump into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy remembers it all with nostalgia. But she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>It must have been hard to come home power nap and then go nine to one at the Fairmont hotel or something // and I think a lot of it he did it for mom because it was mom’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But more than anything, they loved to perform together. Cora and Santos played restaurants, anniversary parties, and cruise ships around the world. Back in 1964, they even decided to record their music – this was before the album our question asker found. This one had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> To this day people tell me “Oh, Cora and Santos, “Dahil Sa Iyo” – that was my favorite, you know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They worked with Tom Spinosa, a big-deal bandleader who’d opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa – not Cora and Santos – is typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the US…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I don’t really want to give him credit. Because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him to be honest with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says her parents loved everybody, but had no desire to work with Spinosa again. She’s got this feeling that the record could have put her parents on the map in a bigger way… Spinosa could have helped with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did\u003cem>. \u003c/em>So I think that maybe they were…here’s my impression, that they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, okay, you know, we did it for the love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>And as it turns out…. their love of music, their desire to build community out of music, would be the \u003cem>\u003cu>real\u003c/u>\u003c/em> legacy of their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos may have had a glamorous onstage life at the Fairmount hotel, befriending famous singers and sparkling under the lights, but Asal Ehsanipour tells us their most lasting legacy may have been on their local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Cissy says her mom had always dreamt of having a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church – just a few blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora ran the children’s choir and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There weren’t any Filipinos, very few Filipino people in the parish, so they were teaching the bamboo dance to people, those kids and their parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>By the 1960s, San Francisco had a sizable Filipino population, but not many lived in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora would teach the moms how to make lumpia, while Santos played poker with the dads. And together the couple gave music lessons to kids all around the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>How many students would you say they had?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh I could not keep, I have no idea. Countless I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Teaching them bass, banjo, piano…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Guitar, ukulele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oftentimes, they’d give away instruments for free, just to ensure kids had access to music all the time. And of course, they made sure their nieces knew music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We had specific lessons. I mean they made sure of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s cousin, Chelle Lindahl again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>There was a set time and then we practiced every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle was Santos’ brother’s kid. Her parents divorced when she was about eight. Then her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed. So the girls went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>And they took on the parent roles. I mean they had two children of their own and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that. That was incredibly generous on their part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle said her aunt and uncle made the girls feel special during a time when they really needed love and tending to. Music was a big part of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that I enjoyed the most was the singing, // And they gave us that opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora had started writing jingles for local businesses. So she invited the girls to record what she’d written for a very popular local burger chain, Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl and Ange Wesley sing together: \u003c/strong>Doggie Diner, nothing’s finer, doggy diners, dog gone good!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We went down to a radio station and recorded it, and then we were kind of famous at school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Under the care of Cora and Santos, the ragged edges of their broken family began to smooth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>They, they just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life. Just no way. And it was just them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They modeled what a loving relationship and happy family looks like… It really set the bar for Chelle and her sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it sounds corny these days, but. They really were it, you know, they embodied it. They really did.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>In 1974… a full decade after “Dahil Sa Iyo” came out, Cora and Santos decided to release their music again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This time, they produced it on their own terms… no middlemen… under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. They called it “In Baghdad By The Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora singing: “I know a great old city down California Way. They call it San Francisco or Baghdad By The Bay.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is the very same record our question asker Jess Garcia found at the thrift store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>I remember just admiring the cover art and they had the cable car on there and I think the bridge is on there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover, and invited local musicians to perform with them. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children. They celebrated in classic Beloy fashion, with a huge party at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I remember being in the living room and like having it presented and everybody’s like ‘oh my god this is amazing.’ you know I mean this was, in this day and age of you can record anything and this and that like to get your songs pressed onto vinyl. That was a big, big deal. But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. Like their voices, they were beautiful together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“In Baghdad by the Bay” ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>I hope it pans to your parents. I want to see them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Come on, pan out, pan it out.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Back at Cissy’s house, she’s showing me a home video of her parents in their later years. They’re performing on a lawn together. It’s a stark contrast to the drama of The Tonga Room… This feels light and casual. No pretenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Always the last song they play, this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>What’s this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr singing: \u003c/strong>Have I told you lately that I love you? Dear, have I told you…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Your mom was looking at your dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Always. Lookit. Watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Home movie sound fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>You know? Mom just sadly carried on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But she never stopped performing. She played at nursing homes, birthday parties — wherever she could get her hands on a microphone, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>We go to a brunch. Boy, my mom was drooling over the piano before the food. She would ask can I play? can I play for everybody? She wanted to play that piano for everybody at the brunch rather than eat, in her 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora performed her last song in 2022… just weeks before she died at 93 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music fades out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical career in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names. But that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them…they wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>You will talk to so many people and they might not have this story about, oh, the famous Cora and Santos, but they will have a great story. Oh gosh, they played at my wedding and I couldn’t afford to pay them or they wouldn’t let me pay them, but it made it so special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They were legends at the Tonga Room…larger than life figures at home… their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Cora and Santos Beloy were talented local AAPI musicians, who played regularly at the Fairmount Hotel’s Tonga Room in the 1970s. But their most lasting legacy is on their family and friends.\r\n\r\n",
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"title": "A Vinyl Found in San Francisco Contains Echoes of a Filipino American Love Story | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Jess Garcia has a little game she and her husband like to play.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They’ll enjoy a big pitcher of margaritas on Valencia Street in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco\u003c/a>, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. One day, they were rummaging through the vinyls when they found an album that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cover had hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks, including cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, and the Golden Gate Bridge — all circling a portrait of a Filipino couple wearing a blue suit and a white lace dress. The album title was etched across the top in thick black letters: \u003cem>Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We didn’t really understand what type of album this was at first,” Garcia said. Her first impression was that it was a 50th anniversary album given to their guests as gifts. But when she rushed home to play the record, she realized it was something else.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[When] the music started playing, it just had this really nostalgic feeling to it,” she said. “Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081475\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081475\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_014-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Memorabilia from Cora and Santos Beloy, including a 45 rpm record, photographs and album materials, are arranged together in San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Garcia did a little research and discovered the Beloys recorded their album at \u003ca href=\"https://www.hydestreet.com/history.html\">Wally Heider Studio\u003c/a>, which had once hosted iconic Bay Area bands like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, and the Grateful Dead. Garcia had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Indeed, a simple internet search of Cora and Santos Beloy doesn’t yield much information. There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but nothing about Santos’ funeral. You might also find a smattering of Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. On the surface, it all feels pretty mundane. But then you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music, especially their rendition of the classic Filipino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>” — an anthem among Filipinos.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/yY7o5weu-YE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/yY7o5weu-YE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation. According to Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr, this arrangement was a kind of role reversal because Cora was fluent in Tagalog and Santos was not.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“She could sing in seven languages, and Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song,” Sherr said. “So when you say that opposites attract, I think that they were meant to be together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos also grew up in dramatically different ways. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, while Santos was raised in San Francisco’s Fillmore District. Cora sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. Santos was a young soprano who sang on the radio. Cora immigrated to the US alone at 18, while Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Their paths crossed in the early 1950s when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. One night, she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember her saying, ‘Once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it,’” Sherr said. “It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I know that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos shared the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together, Sherr said. They had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own, and a little whistle to catch each other’s attention at parties.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines so Santos could meet Cora’s family. While there, Cora, under her maiden name “Cora Delfino,” recorded a handful of songs with her brother, who was a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, she became a star. Songs like “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPgSFXm9DeI&list=RDHPgSFXm9DeI&start_radio=1\">Silver Moon\u003c/a>” took over Manila airwaves, and her single “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 1950s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep,” said Sherr. “I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora’s singing aligned with the \u003ca href=\"https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4FlxtqjkBY0tKRUUdjAcEb\">classic kundiman style\u003c/a>, a type of Filipino music — mostly smooth, romantic ballads — sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist by singing in English, a common trend applied to Filipino folk songs at the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There’s something about her songs,” Sherr said. “The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>‘Truly a performer’\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>When Cora and Santos returned to San Francisco, Cora didn’t try to leverage her mega-hit in the Philippines into a flashy music career stateside. Instead, she prioritized motherhood. Cora was already pregnant with Sherr’s older brother, Chris Beloy, by the time she and Santos returned from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America, working on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along a few years after Chris.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs, Cora never stopped playing music.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/M6bkjT4WQHE'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/M6bkjT4WQHE'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>“She was just truly a performer,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora once confessed a secret to Cissy about this time when the kids were young. While Sherr and her brother were in school, Cora would get dressed up and sneak out to perform for the shoppers at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians. That surprised Sherr, who had no idea of her mom’s secret performances.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out,” Cissy said. “Maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know? Maybe her love of singing … she got to do that as well as be a mom.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The mall gigs were also surprising to Sherr because at the time, her mom was getting offers for other glamorous, high-profile jobs. At one point, the comedian Phyllis Diller approached Cora for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in San Francisco called \u003ca href=\"https://www.comedyhistory101.com/comedy-history-101/2019/3/4/history-of-the-purple-onion-comedy-club-in-san-francisco\">The Purple Onion\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But Cissy said her mother turned the job down, claiming it would interfere with her ability to be present with her family. Instead, Cora only took the so-called “casuals,” referring to gigs that were short-term and close to home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her niche became performing at local hotels, the lead vocalist for big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I never got to see her perform because I was just too little,” Sherr said. “I got to see her get dressed. That was the show for me.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Depending on the night, Cora would don Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Sherr’s favorite, though, was her mom’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000544/\">Carmen Miranda\u003c/a> outfit, a reference to the Brazilian pop star famous for wearing a massive hat with fake fruit piled on top. “I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Her father, Santos, loved the spotlight as much as Cora. Back then he would work a full day, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit and join his wife onstage. Over the years, Cora and Santos played restaurants, weddings, and anniversary parties. In 1964, they even decided to record their music. This record had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“To this day people tell me ‘Oh, Cora and Santos, ‘Dahil Sa Iyo,’ that was my favorite,’” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081486\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081486\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-04-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora Beloy poses with fellow musicians. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The Beloys worked on the record with Tom Spinosa, a bandleader who had opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa is the one typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I don’t really want to give him credit because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though her parents loved everybody, they had no desire to work with Spinosa again, Sherr said. Even now, she has a feeling that Spinosa could have helped put her parents on the map in a bigger way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did,” she said. “Here’s my impression, they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, ‘Okay, we did it for the love of music.’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos doubled down on their love of music, expanding their reach as a family band around the state, and even performing on cruise ships around the world. Eventually, Cora and Santos landed their most iconic gig as the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Performing alongside stars\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1940s to the 1970s, the Fairmont was a nightly destination for live music. Some of the world’s biggest stars performed at the hotel’s Venetian Room, including Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">famously sang\u003c/a> “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed five nights a week at the New Orleans Room, a cocktail lounge adjacent to the Venetian Room. Its high profile location allowed them to befriend people such as Tony Bennett himself.\u003c/p>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/Ysw4svDmcxc'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/Ysw4svDmcxc'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cp>Sherr’s godsister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, still remembers arriving at the Beloys’ house for dinner one night, decades ago, to find the music legend sitting in the Beloys’ living room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[Tony Bennett] just hung out and we were all laughing” she said. “We had Auntie’s chili; she made lumpias and she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.” And to top it all off, Cora Santos and Tony Bennet played a duet at the living room piano. Ofalsa-Nutter also said that she’d witnessed a similar experience with The Lettermen, whose lead singer \u003ca href=\"https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0124650/bio/?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm\">Tony Butala\u003c/a> became a good friend to the Beloys. And one night while performing at the Fairmont, the Beloys invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving the level of mega stardom that surrounded them, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous,” especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Polynesian-themed tiki bar, the Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos performed their showstopping set on a barge that floated over the Tonga Rooms’s indoor swimming pool, as a synthetic thunderstorm poured around them. Cora knew how to work a crowd, and Santos entranced the audience by playing multiple instruments at once. The performance was so elaborate, it garnered a kind of cult following. One of their fans included the man their niece, Ange Beloy Wesley, was dating.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He went in there once and saw them, and so he just kept going back,” Wesley said. She hadn’t known that her now-husband was a fan of her aunt and uncle until she introduced them for the first time. “‘[Are they] the little Filipino couple on the boat,’” she recalled him asking her. “He’s going, ‘They are a bad ass couple!’”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081484\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081484\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1545\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-160x124.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260427-CORA-SANTOS-BELOY-02-KQED-1536x1187.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Cora and Santos Beloy performing the traditional Filipino bamboo dance. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of Cissy Beloy Sherr)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Wesley’s husband wasn’t the only one taken by Cora and Santos. Sherr said that more than once, her parents would return from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who had jumped into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Though Sherr remembers these performances with nostalgia, she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job at the bank.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It must have been hard to come home, power nap, and then go 9 to 1 at the Fairmont Hotel,” she said. “I think a lot of it he did for Mom because it was Mom’s dream.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Building community out of music\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Aside from music, Sherr said her mom’s other dream was to have a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church, several blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset. In the early 1960s, Cora and Santos became advisors for the church teen program, chaperoning dozens of kids to bowling nights and ski trips. Cora also ran the children’s choir, and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There weren’t any Filipinos – very few Filipino people in the parish,” Sherr said. “So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people,” Cissy said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Together, Cora and Santos also provided music lessons to countless children around the neighborhood. Oftentimes, the couple would give away instruments for free, just to ensure their students had access to music all the time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Of course, they also taught music to their family.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We had specific lessons. They made sure of that,” said Cora and Santos’ niece, Chelle Lindahl. “There was a set time and then we practiced every day.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl’s parents divorced when she was about 8 years old. Soon after, her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed raising three young girls. So Lindahl and her sisters, including Wesley, went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They took on the parent roles,” Lindahl said. “They had two children of their own, and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that … That was incredibly generous on their part.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Auntie and uncle had taken over so fiercely,” Wesley agreed. “We were living in a good environment, we were fed and clothed, and all our needs were met.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Lindahl and Wesley said that their aunt and uncle made them feel special during a time when they especially needed love and tending to. They performed alongside Cora and Santos at weddings and The Tonga Room. And Cora, who had begun writing jingles for local businesses, invited the girls to record what she had written for a popular local burger chain — Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life,” said Lindahl. “Just no way. And it was just them.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Recording an album on their own terms\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In 1974, after several years performing at the Fairmont Hotel, Cora and Santos released their only full-length record — In Baghdad By The Bay. The title is a reference to a nickname for San Francisco given by beloved \u003cem>San Francisco Chronicle\u003c/em> columnist \u003ca href=\"https://www.norcalmediamuseum.org/?page_id=218\">Herb Caen\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Beloys decided to produce this record on their own terms — no middlemen — under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover and invited local musicians to perform with them. Lindahl and Wesley recalled celebrating the album’s release at Cora and Santos’ home in the Inner Sunset.“That was a big, big deal,” Lindahl said. “But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. They were beautiful together.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know, Mom just sadly carried on,” Sherr said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081474\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081474\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/042506CORASANTOSBELOY_GH_006-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">(From left) Ange Westly, Cissy Sherr and Tisha Nutter, relatives of Cora and Santos Beloy, are photographed with the album In Baghdad By the Bay in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco on April 25, 2026. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But Cora never stopped performing, taking the stage at nursing homes, birthday parties, and anywhere else she could get her hands on a microphone. Into her nineties, Cora would ask to play the piano at restaurants with in-house entertainment, rather than eat her food. Cora performed her last song in 2022, just weeks before she passed away at 93-years-old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical careers in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names, but that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them. They wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sherr acknowledged that people may not have stories about “the famous Cora and Santos,” but they do have stories about the generous couple who wouldn’t accept payment for playing at a wedding or the skillful teachers who instilled a love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos Beloy were legends at the Tonga Room and larger than life figures at home. Their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Jess Garcia, has a little game she and her husband like to play…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>They’ll enjoy a big ole pitcher of margaritas on Valencia St in San Francisco, and then wander over to the nearby thrift stores to see what kinds of treasures they’ll find. They were rummaging through the vinyls one day when they saw something that caught their eye.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>So when we saw this album, obviously it attracted our attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The album cover has these hand-painted illustrations of San Francisco landmarks. Cable cars, the Transamerica Building, Coit Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge – and they’re all circling this portrait of a Filipino couple. It looks like a wedding photo from the 70s or 80s, maybe. He’s in a blue suit with a purple ruffled shirt underneath. She’s in a white lace dress. And in thick black letters, the album title reads “Cora and Santos, In Baghdad by the Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>We didn’t really understand like what type of album this was at first. My first impression was that, like maybe it was like a 50th anniversary album that, like they gave out to like friends and family with like just like their favorite songs on it which I thought was like such a cute idea. And then we actually did kind of rush home because we were eager to listen to the album. So when we put it on and the music started playing it just had this like really nostalgic feeling to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>The very first track is Spanish Eyes. And you know, a couple of seconds into the track, Cora and Santos start singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Spanish Eyes” in the clear: “Spanish Eyes. Teardrops are falling from your Spanish Eyes.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>Their voices were just so vibrant and sentimental. And I just thought they were so sweet and I’ve never, you know, I’ve never heard of Cora and Santos Beloy before.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The couple recorded at a studio called Wally Heider. Some other Iconic Bay Area bands have recorded there. Like Creedence Clearwater Revival, Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead. Jess had heard of those bands, of course, which made her wonder if there was more to Cora and Santos Beloy’s story.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jess Garcia: \u003c/strong>I was just really interested to know what their life was like, the types of achievements that I can’t find on the internet, and just curious about their legacy overall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Jess is right, if you search the names “Cora and Santos Beloy,” you probably won’t find much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Reporter Asal Ehsanipour loves a good mystery.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>There’s a beautiful obituary for Cora, who died in 2022, but not much about Santos’ funeral. A few Facebook posts about the couple’s involvement in their Catholic parish. It all feels pretty mundane. But then… you’ll find a handful of links to Cora and Santos’ music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And music was everything to this couple. Today we’re digging into the lives and legacy…big and small…of Cora and Santos Beloy. Take it away, Asal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>The song that comes up most is Cora and Santos Beloy’s biggest hit – a rendition of the classic Filippino love song, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY7o5weu-YE&list=RDiHI2RypmtmI&index=2\">Dahil Sa Iyo\u003c/a>.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“Dahil Sa Iyo” in the clear for a moment \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Dahil Sa Iyo is a kind of anthem among Filipinos. Cora and Santos’ version is a duet, where Santos takes the classic Tagalog, while Cora croons in the lesser-known English translation… It’s a kind of role reversal – because Cora was fluent in Tagalog, and Santos wasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She could sing in seven languages, // And Dad could barely remember his Tagalog words in a song.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is Cora and Santos’ daughter, Cissy Beloy Sherr.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So, when you say that opposites attract, in some ways, I think that they were meant to be together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s parents were also opposite in the way they’d grown up. Cora was raised on a sugar plantation in the Philippines, Santos was raised in the Fillmore. She sang to entertain the Japanese soldiers occupying her town during World War II. He was a young soprano, who sang on the radio. Cora was an immigrant, Santos was a veteran.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So dad grew up so different from mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Their paths finally crossed in the early 50s, when Cora attended a mixer for Filipinos in San Francisco. And one night… she heard Santos singing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I remember her saying, “once I heard your dad’s voice, that was it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos’ song “Hawaiian Wedding Song” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> It didn’t take a long time for them to fall in love with each other. I knew that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos were crazy about each other. Cissy says it was the kind of love where they forgot about everything else when they were together… The kind where they had a whole rolodex of special songs, just their own… and a little whistle so they could get each other’s attention at a party. .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After they married, the couple took a long honeymoon to the Philippines, so Santos could meet Cora’s family. And while they were there, Cora recorded a handful of songs with her brother – a well-known musician in the Philippines. Overnight, Cora became a star.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Her single, “\u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bkjT4WQHE\">My Song of Love\u003c/a>,” soared to the very top of the Filipino charts in the early 50s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora Delphino singing: “My Song of Love”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>People to this day remember their grandparents singing it to them to sleep. I mean, I can see where my mom’s voice had that calming lullaby tone to it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora’s singing was very much in the classic kundiman style. A type of Filipino music – mostly smooth, romantic ballads – sung in Tagalog. Cora gave it a modern twist, singing in English.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There’s something about her songs. The way she sang, the minor key of it, the melody. There’s this bittersweet sadness of love and just the emotion with it. It’s kind of in your soul, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“My Song of Love” ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Despite her mega hit in the Phillipines, Cora didn’t try to leverage her success into a flashy music career back in San Francisco. Instead, she immediately shifted into mom mode. This was the 1950s. Corae was already pregnant by the time she and Santos got back from their honeymoon. They settled down in the Inner Sunset neighborhood of San Francisco, and Santos took a day job as a technician for Bank of America. He worked on the predecessor to the ATM machine. Cora stayed home, and Cissy came along 14 months later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But between the hustle and bustle of potty training and school drop-offs – Cora never stopped playing music. \u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>She was like just truly a performer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora once told Cissy a secret about this time. When the kids were in school, she confessed almost wistfully… that she’d sneak out and perform at the Hillsdale Mall in San Mateo with a group of musicians.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>They’d pick her up, bring her down to the mall and they’d be all set up for her to sing for the shoppers going through the mall.I would get home before you did and we never knew she did this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy had always thought her mom was doing the dishes and baking cookies while she was in school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Maybe it wasn’t sneaking out, maybe it was fitting it into everything else, you know. Maybe her love of singing, she got to do that as well as be a mom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But it wasn’t just mall jobs. Cora also got offers for glamorous, higher profile jobs. At one point, Cissy said her mom had been approached by the comedian Phyllis Diller for a nightly stint at a legendary comedy club in the city, called The Purple Onion.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I do remember that, because Phylliss Diller, she’s famous, you know. Oh, but mommy’s not gonna do that because that means she won’t be home to cook dinner for us\u003cem>.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Instead, Cora took the so-called “casuals.” Gigs that were short-term and close to home. She started performing at local hotels, singing with the big bands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Big band music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh… my mom sounded great with a big band.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Those huge jazz ensembles – a dozen or more musicians packed onstage together playing a big brassy sound. This was Cora’s niche.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> I never got to see her perform because I was just too little, you know. I got to see her get dressed that was the show for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Depending on the night, Cora would dress in Filipino formalwear or a sparkly evening gown. Cissy’s favorite, though, was her mom’s Carmen Miranda outfit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Because that big hat had a whole bowl of fruit on the top. And I don’t know how she even got in the car with that thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>And Santos loved the spotlight as much as Cora. He would work a full day at the bank, come home, throw on a Hawaiian shirt or a matching band suit – and join his wife on stage. And eventually… once the kids got older… they became the house band at San Francisco’s Fairmont Hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Piano music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This was during the Fairmont’s heyday… back when it was a nightly destination for live music. The main attraction was the Venetian Room, a glamorous concert hall where some of the world’s biggest stars performed – people like Ella Fitzgerald and Tony Bennett. In fact, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/oursf/article/story-tony-bennett-i-left-heart-san-francisco-18254163.php?utm_source=marketing&utm_medium=google&utm_campaign=content_acquisition&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=23286310966&gbraid=0AAAAADfW6kE7McpsTc-vgAQgwHkuK5L3i&gclid=CjwKCAiA-__MBhAKEiwASBmsBNb_pn1CBbHh_3UtFLZeN_yEKTDE-9A3pfyvO0TIBS8KFkEkRbrKXhoCWbUQAvD_BwE\">Tony Bennett first sang “I Left My Heart in San Francisco” during his 1961 residency at the Venetian Room.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Tony Bennet singing “I Left My Heart In San Francisco”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>And then there was, uh, I think there was a little lounge on each side. There was one to the right, a cocktail lounge with live music. And that’s the one mom and dad played in. And it was called the New Orleans Room. And I feel like it was kind of a staging or maybe a waiting area for either if you couldn’t get tickets for the main show or you were waiting to go in that main show.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This regular gig adjacent to the Venetian Room meant Cora and Santos befriended all kinds of people. Including…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Tony, just Tony.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s god sister, Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter, is talking about that very same Tony Bennett. She still remembers one night, decades ago, when her Auntie Cora invited the family over for dinner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>Just come on over, it’s Monday. Except Tony Bennett was sitting there in the living room. And he just hung out and we were all just laughing. We had Auntie’s chili. She made lumpias and // it was like she treated him just like family. It could have been any other night.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Except on this night, Cora sang a duet with Tony Bennet at the piano in her living room. Casual.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>And this not only happened with Tony Bennett, this happened with The Letterman.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos became longtime friends with the pop group’s lead singer, Tony Butala. One night, they invited Sammy Davis Jr. to perform onstage with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite never achieving THAT level of stardom, Cora and Santos became “San Francisco famous” … especially through their performances at The Fairmont Hotel’s Tonga Room.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Rumbling music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>For the uninitiated, The Tonga Room is a Polynesian-themed tiki bar known for extravagant umbrella drinks and an indoor thunderstorm.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tisha Ofalsa-Nutter: \u003c/strong>When they were about to come out and perform, they would start this thunder and lightning. And then the rain would start coming down. And there would be Auntie Cora, Uncle Santos and they would be on this barge and the barge would come out on this little waterway then the rain would stop and then they would start performing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos start singing: “When I Hear the Church Bells Ringing”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it was just gobsmacking.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>This is Chelle Lindahl, Cora and Santos’ niece.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl:\u003c/strong> I know we were just all like, oh, oh my God, look at this. And then Auntie and Uncle are on this thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong> Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>People would go to the Tonga Room FOR Cora and Santos…they had a bit of a cult following.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora knew how to work a crowd. And when Santos sang… you couldn’t help but pay attention.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora and Santos song “Now That Summer Is Gone” starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh, he’s so fun. My dad had this way of playing like three instruments at once. Like three quarters of a one-man band. It was great.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says that more than once, her parents would come from a night at the Tonga Room, and tell her about the customers who got a little too swept up in the music, and would jump into the indoor swimming pool.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>They’d have to fish them out of the water because they drank too much.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy remembers it all with nostalgia. But she also admits it was a heavy lift for her dad, who was still working his day job.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>It must have been hard to come home power nap and then go nine to one at the Fairmont hotel or something // and I think a lot of it he did it for mom because it was mom’s dream.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But more than anything, they loved to perform together. Cora and Santos played restaurants, anniversary parties, and cruise ships around the world. Back in 1964, they even decided to record their music – this was before the album our question asker found. This one had just two tracks, including their famous duet of “Dahil Sa Iyo.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr:\u003c/strong> To this day people tell me “Oh, Cora and Santos, “Dahil Sa Iyo” – that was my favorite, you know.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They worked with Tom Spinosa, a big-deal bandleader who’d opened a small music label in the 1950s. To this day, Spinosa – not Cora and Santos – is typically credited with popularizing “Dahil Sa Iyo” to English speakers in the US…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>I don’t really want to give him credit. Because I don’t know that I have a positive recollection of him to be honest with you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy says her parents loved everybody, but had no desire to work with Spinosa again. She’s got this feeling that the record could have put her parents on the map in a bigger way… Spinosa could have helped with that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>I feel like that record should have probably made them some money. I don’t think it did\u003cem>. \u003c/em>So I think that maybe they were…here’s my impression, that they were naive about whatever the business of it was. And it wouldn’t surprise me if they just said, okay, you know, we did it for the love of music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>And as it turns out…. their love of music, their desire to build community out of music, would be the \u003cem>\u003cu>real\u003c/u>\u003c/em> legacy of their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos may have had a glamorous onstage life at the Fairmount hotel, befriending famous singers and sparkling under the lights, but Asal Ehsanipour tells us their most lasting legacy may have been on their local community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong> Cissy says her mom had always dreamt of having a big family. But since Cora and Santos couldn’t have more children, they volunteered all their free time to St. Anne’s Catholic Church – just a few blocks away from their house in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora ran the children’s choir and together, she and Santos taught Filipino folk dancing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>There weren’t any Filipinos, very few Filipino people in the parish, so they were teaching the bamboo dance to people, those kids and their parents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>By the 1960s, San Francisco had a sizable Filipino population, but not many lived in the Inner Sunset.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>So they were really involved in trying to bring the Philippine culture to all those white people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora would teach the moms how to make lumpia, while Santos played poker with the dads. And together the couple gave music lessons to kids all around the neighborhood.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>How many students would you say they had?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Oh I could not keep, I have no idea. Countless I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Teaching them bass, banjo, piano…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Guitar, ukulele.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oftentimes, they’d give away instruments for free, just to ensure kids had access to music all the time. And of course, they made sure their nieces knew music.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We had specific lessons. I mean they made sure of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cissy’s cousin, Chelle Lindahl again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>There was a set time and then we practiced every day.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle was Santos’ brother’s kid. Her parents divorced when she was about eight. Then her mom left, and her dad was overwhelmed. So the girls went to live with their Auntie Cora and Uncle Santos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>And they took on the parent roles. I mean they had two children of their own and to take on three even younger children who are struggling with their mother leaving and all of that. That was incredibly generous on their part.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Chelle said her aunt and uncle made the girls feel special during a time when they really needed love and tending to. Music was a big part of that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I think the thing that I enjoyed the most was the singing, // And they gave us that opportunity.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora had started writing jingles for local businesses. So she invited the girls to record what she’d written for a very popular local burger chain, Doggie Diner.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl and Ange Wesley sing together: \u003c/strong>Doggie Diner, nothing’s finer, doggy diners, dog gone good!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>We went down to a radio station and recorded it, and then we were kind of famous at school.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Under the care of Cora and Santos, the ragged edges of their broken family began to smooth.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>They, they just brought a joy to all of this that we wouldn’t have had otherwise in our life. Just no way. And it was just them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They modeled what a loving relationship and happy family looks like… It really set the bar for Chelle and her sisters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I mean, it sounds corny these days, but. They really were it, you know, they embodied it. They really did.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>In 1974… a full decade after “Dahil Sa Iyo” came out, Cora and Santos decided to release their music again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This time, they produced it on their own terms… no middlemen… under the label Cora & Santos Enterprise. They called it “In Baghdad By The Bay.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Cora singing: “I know a great old city down California Way. They call it San Francisco or Baghdad By The Bay.” \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>This is the very same record our question asker Jess Garcia found at the thrift store.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>I remember just admiring the cover art and they had the cable car on there and I think the bridge is on there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora and Santos asked a friend to design the cover, and invited local musicians to perform with them. The whole record is a homage to the city where they fell in love and raised their children. They celebrated in classic Beloy fashion, with a huge party at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Chelle Lindahl: \u003c/strong>I remember being in the living room and like having it presented and everybody’s like ‘oh my god this is amazing.’ you know I mean this was, in this day and age of you can record anything and this and that like to get your songs pressed onto vinyl. That was a big, big deal. But Auntie and Uncle singing together, that’s some kind of magic there. Like their voices, they were beautiful together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>“In Baghdad by the Bay” ends \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>I hope it pans to your parents. I want to see them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Come on, pan out, pan it out.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Back at Cissy’s house, she’s showing me a home video of her parents in their later years. They’re performing on a lawn together. It’s a stark contrast to the drama of The Tonga Room… This feels light and casual. No pretenses.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>Always the last song they play, this one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>What’s this one?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr singing: \u003c/strong>Have I told you lately that I love you? Dear, have I told you…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Your mom was looking at your dad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>Always. Lookit. Watch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Home movie sound fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cora and Santos continued singing love songs to each other until Santos died of cancer in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>You know? Mom just sadly carried on.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>But she never stopped performing. She played at nursing homes, birthday parties — wherever she could get her hands on a microphone, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>We go to a brunch. Boy, my mom was drooling over the piano before the food. She would ask can I play? can I play for everybody? She wanted to play that piano for everybody at the brunch rather than eat, in her 90s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>Cora performed her last song in 2022… just weeks before she died at 93 years old.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Music fades out\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour:\u003c/strong>Throughout Cora and Santos’ musical career in San Francisco, they brushed elbows with the stars that have become household names. But that lifestyle wasn’t what called to them…they wanted their music to make the people around them happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cissy Beloy Sherr: \u003c/strong>You will talk to so many people and they might not have this story about, oh, the famous Cora and Santos, but they will have a great story. Oh gosh, they played at my wedding and I couldn’t afford to pay them or they wouldn’t let me pay them, but it made it so special.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Asal Ehsanipour: \u003c/strong>They were legends at the Tonga Room…larger than life figures at home… their legacy may not have made it to the internet, but for the people who knew them, they were stars.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was reporter Asal Ehsanipour.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "alameda-relies-on-bridge-tenders-for-safety-on-land-and-sea",
"title": "Alameda Relies on Bridge Tenders for Safety on Land and Sea",
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"headTitle": "Alameda Relies on Bridge Tenders for Safety on Land and Sea | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many people who travel to and from the city of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/alameda\">Alameda\u003c/a>, Sarah Reid, one day, found herself facing a bridge that was temporarily disconnected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Park Street Bridge, a forest green drawbridge, about the length of a football field, had split open, casting the four-lane bridge at a 70-degree angle in the air so a boat could pass underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opening and closing of Alameda’s drawbridges is a familiar ritual for people who travel to the Bay Area’s island city. Alameda is connected to the rest of the Bay Area by six bridges, as well as two underwater tunnels. All but two of the bridges are required to open 24 hours a day, sometimes on very short notice, in order to let ships travel down the Oakland Estuary, which separates Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nothing to do but to wait, Reid peered through her windshield and noticed a little tower connected to the bridge, with a room full of windows at the top. She wondered if someone was inside that room, and what they did up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember wondering, does someone just sit there all day? And what is that like?” Reid said. “What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad day? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The High Street Bridge begins to lift over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There was, in fact, a bridge tender in the control tower of the Park Street Bridge that day, just as there has been for decades. Bridge tenders are the workers responsible for safely opening and closing the bridges, so that people both on land and on water can move through the area. It’s a job that comes with life -or-death public safety risks, stunning views, ample alone time, and a strong connection to the history of the island city itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A public service job with risks\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“ It’s the best job in the world,” said John Williams, a bridge tender for Alameda County Public Works Agency, who has held the job for 16 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams was the bridge tender on duty at the Park Street Bridge on a sunny winter morning earlier this year. From his perch inside the control tower, Williams could see up and down the estuary, with Berkeley and downtown Oakland in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12081386 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-08-KQED-3.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One end of the room is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette. On that particular day, there was a French press and an avocado sitting on the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because the bridges are staffed 24/7, with bridge tenders working day, swing and graveyard shifts, each bridge control tower has its own kitchenette and bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams said the perks include beautiful sunsets, great wildlife viewing and dedicated colleagues. But he also takes pride in being a public servant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines,” Williams said. “You could crush a car or kill somebody if you’re not following procedure properly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said being a bridge tender requires constant vigilance, ensuring nobody is in harm’s way when the bridge is moving. Still, there have been accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People will run on the bridge while it’s moving, and I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s just the terrestrial side of his worries. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll get a call and tug and barge is coming in with 20 tons of gravel, and a fat tide and wind behind them, and you have to open the bridge because it’s very hard for them to stop,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boats can schedule openings ahead of time or call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat captain makes an appointment at least two hours ahead of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams is relaxed and friendly in his downtime at work, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. When opening the bridge, the first thing he does is open all the blinds in the control tower, so he has full visibility. He stops speaking to anyone else around so that he can concentrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He activates an alarm bell as he makes an announcement over a loudspeaker, telling the public to stand clear. Then he drops the gates that block the road and sidewalk leading to the bridge. He double and triple checks the security cameras and walks out on a little catwalk adjacent to the tower to verify that nobody is on the bridge. Then he initiates the opening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Metal locks underneath the bridge disconnect, an electric motor deep in the bowels below the bridge begins to whir, a massive counterweight sinks into a pit and the bridge begins to rise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A flock of pigeons flies near the Park Street Bridge over the Oakland Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For second-generation bridge tender Damon Wallace, it’s a special moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re these giant machines, and you don’t realize it until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button, and then your world starts to tilt sideways,” Wallace, whose father and uncle worked as bridge tenders, said as he gazed up at the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a minute, you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happen right in front of you. It’s one of my favorite things,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the bridge reaches its apex, Williams repeats the process in reverse until the bridge is back together, and the traffic on the bridge resumes again.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The chaotic past of Alameda’s bridges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland separating it from Oakland, and bridge tenders have been part of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The problem started in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Oakland’s right there, we sure would like to get over there,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Alameda wasn’t yet an island, but connected to Oakland by a marshy stretch of land at its eastern end. Years later, in 1902, the Army Corps of Engineers would finish work dredging that channel, flooding the area connecting Oakland’s inner harbor with San Leandro Bay, making Alameda an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, even before that, crossing the marshy stretch of land connecting it to Oakland wasn’t easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first bridge to connect Alameda to Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get-go, it had its fair share of tragedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. Evanosky said it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident in which 13 people were killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt three more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing, according to Bernard C. Winn, the author of \u003cem>California Drawbridges\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials made the decision to dismantle the bridge in 1928, after the construction of the Webster Street Tube, an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda, made it obsolete. This is the pattern most of Alameda’s bridges have followed. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt at least once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070403\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070403\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator with the Alameda County Public Works Agency, sits at the controls used to raise and lower the drawbridge over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 13, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. Evanosky said early Alameda residents used to “ride the bridges,” clinging on as the bridges swung open and taking them for a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People even did this on the current version of the Park Street Bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s pretty dangerous. So they put a stop to that,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the current version of the Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda, Edith Bird, and a man from Oakland, Edward M. Drotloff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newspaper clippings from the time describe it as a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from Oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What it takes\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the High Street Bridge control tower, just a half-mile down up the estuary from the Park Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti strummed his ukulele in a moment of downtime during his shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Part of the job is to stare out the window and the ukulele accompanies it pretty good,” Cerletti said. “You have to have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator, looks out from the bridge’s operator tower on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The Miller-Sweeney Bridge is visible in the distance. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He said other bridge tenders paint watercolors or fix small electronics between bridge openings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cerletti has been a bridge tender since 2014, and said the stability of working for Alameda County has been great, he said. But the job can get a little lonely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You have to be able to be comfortable with yourself sitting up here too, because you can get go a little stir crazy being alone all the time,” Cerletti said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Generations of bridge tenders\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The work of being a bridge tender has seeped into Damon Wallace’s bones. Wallace fondly remembers moments from his youth, like when he greeted his father at the door in the morning after a graveyard shift, noticing the smell of oil, grease and work his father would bring home with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I started working here and I was like, ‘oh, that’s that smell,’ I get it now,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070400\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steel beams and the roadway deck are seen as the Park Street Bridge lifts over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The double-leaf bascule bridge spans 372 feet and is raised to about 70 degrees for most openings. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even the sound of rubber car tires driving on the bridges’ metal road deck, a sort of ever-present drone around the bridges, has become soothing for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Over the years, I’ve gotten to actually look and put hands on these things and understand what they are for and why they’re here. My childhood became my adulthood, and my world got bigger somehow,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said he’s started to bring his children to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ It’s honest work, and it’s kind of a special thing, this sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job,” Wallace said. “There’s not a lot of it left, and I’m proud to be part of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Crossing bridges can be essential to getting around the Bay Area. No matter what side of the water you live on, odds are, you’re probably going to use a bridge sooner than later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for the people who live, work or just hang out in the City of Alameda, crossing a bridge is almost non-negotiable. The island is connected to the rest of the Bay by six drawbridges, as well as two underwater tunnels, that span the Oakland Estuary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When those bridges open to let a boat pass, everybody has to wait. One day, Sarah Reid was in her car, watching the Park Street bridge open, when she noticed a little room attached to one of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember looking up at those little rooms wondering, does someone just sit up there all day? And what is that like, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She also wants to hear some stories …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad da y? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out – yeah! There’s a bridge tender sitting in that little room 24/7. And they’ve seen a lot! KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman has the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Cars on Bridge Noise\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Car tires hum against the steel deck of the Park Street Bridge. This hypnotic drone is the bridge’s soundtrack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up on these bridges. Um, the sound of the cars going overhead is, is soothing to me. It’s like a, it’s a comfort thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Damon Wallace, he’s a bridge utility worker for Alameda County’s Public Works Agency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been doing that for about two years, and prior to that I was a bridge tender. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bridge tenders are the people that operate Alameda’s drawbridges. It runs in his family, his father and his uncle both held the job when he was a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad 25 years. Uh, my uncle, uh, a little bit less than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the machinery room underneath the Park Street Bridge…its a large concrete bunker full of tools and the giant electrical motor that opens and closes the bridge\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a little Home Depot in here, just for the bridge, they’ve got everything they need to keep the bridge running which is essential because The Park Street Bridge is the busiest of Alameda’s bridges. Around 40,000 vehicles travel across its four lanes on an average weekday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up on the deck of the bridge, which is about the length of a football field we can see Berkeley, downtown Oakland, and ships at the Port of Oakland. We walk up to the bridge tower. It’s fixed on the Alameda side of the bridge, and almost looks like a little miniature clock tower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Knock, knock. Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Come on up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How you doing, John? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We head up a spiral staircase to the top floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Park Street Bridge, uh, Alameda County Public Works Agency. How you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Williams is the bridge tender on duty right now. He’s got a big white beard and his orange public works shirt tucked into his work pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s the best job in the world, you know, I mean, I, it’s really an excellent job \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The top floor is just one room with windows all around, giving the operator a 360 degree view of the bridge and the Oakland estuary. One end is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. There are a lot of big red buttons there, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">right? There are. And you don’t just randomly push them either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, that’s too bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette, there’s a french press and an avocado sitting on the counter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen a lot of wildlife out here over, over the years. You know, way l one time, lot of otters now and then, um, a lot of seabirds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some great sunsets too. John says he found the job on Craigslist. Besides the perks, he says this job has some big responsibilities. Public safety is their number one concern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A normal opening of the bridge splits the road deck in half, tons of concrete and steel lift into the sky at a 70 degree angle, about 143 feet in the air. The process requires constant vigilance and double, triple checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cause people will run on the bridge while it’s moving. They’ll go underneath the barriers. I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s just keeping the PEOPLE safe. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You get a call and tug and barge is coming in with like, you know whatever, 20 tons of gravel, you know, with a, a fat tide behind them pushing ’em in, in wind, and you have to open the bridge. You can’t not open the bridge. It’s very hard for ’em to stop. Really hard for ’em to stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All but two of Alameda’s drawbridges are staffed around the clock because ships, including the nearby Coast Guard base, need to be able to travel up and down the estuary at all hours. On a busy day, the Park Street bridge might open and close 14 different times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could be in a crowd of a thousand people and if somebody on the other side of that crowd said Park Street Bridge, I would hear them. Because I’m trained to hear it, you know, the radio call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boats can schedule openings ahead of time, or just call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat makes an appointment\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John comes off pretty relaxed and friendly, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there isn’t a ship passing, this is an operational check, that the tenders do from time to time, to make sure everything is working as it should. John starts by opening all the blinds in the little tower room. He wants full visibility. And he stops talking to me. He says he needs to concentrate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">St and clear for bridge opening. Please stand clear for Park Street Bridge opening\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First he drops the gates and barriers to keep cars and pedestrians off the bridge, and makes sure all the traffic is stopped. Then he walks out on a little catwalk extending out from the tower, and double checks that nobody is in harms way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just then, recordings of birds play underneath the bridge, in an attempt to shoo nesting pigeons away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it gets pretty quiet. The hum of traffic stops, and the bridge begins to rise. You can hear the electrical motors whirring. For Damon, the second generation bridge worker, it’s a special moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s these giant machines, and you don’t realize they’re machines until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button and the your world starts to tilt sideways.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says there’s something magical about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a minute you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happened right in front of you. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things, you know? It always has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the bridge sticking straight up in the air, John checks again before letting it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, you guys. All right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, John guides the bridge slowly back down, metal locks click back together underneath the road deck, and the traffic starts again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear the bridge tenders are essential. But in this world of technological innovation, especially artificial intelligence, I wonder, how much longer will these jobs be around? I put that question to John Medlock, he’s the Deputy Director of Maintenance Operation for Alameda County, PublicWorks Agency.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Medlock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At some point in time, you know, maybe, maybe everything needs to be replaced. We’ll probably find new technology or, or new way of spanning the, uh, the estuary. But right now that’s what we have and love it or hate it. If that’s what we have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks the bridge tenders, will be around for the foreseeable future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – some history of these drawbridges. And the unique ways bridge tenders pass the time. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nowadays Alameda’s bridges are a reliable way to get on and off the island. But it wasn’t always that way. Here’s Azul again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland … separating it from Oakland. And bridge tenders have been part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem started in, in the, in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Boy Oakland’s right over there. We’d like to get over there.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s historian Dennis Evanosky. The first bridge to connect Alameda to what’s now Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get go, it had its fair share of tragedies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge, that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. But Evanosky says it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They misunderstood a signal and, and the, the whole train dumped into the estuary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirteen people were killed. The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt 3 more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing. The bridge was dismantled for the last time, shortly after the construction of the Webster Street Tube in 1928., the tube is an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s kind of the story of all of Alameda’s bridges. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt, at least once.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So each of the bridges has two lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the people, uh, who, who were really close by when they heard the boat toot for permission, they’d all run down there and they’d ride the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Climbing on the bridge as it swung open and taking it for a ride. People even did this on the current version of the park street bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s pretty dangerous. So they, they, they put a stop to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the latest Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda and a man from Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miss Edith Bird of Alameda became Mrs. Edward M. Drotloff of Oakland yesterday afternoon. The ceremony that united them as they stood at the site of the newly-completed Park Street Bridge symbolized the uniting of the two cities by the huge structure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge. The same one that stands today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are 14 bridge tenders that work the Alameda bridges, and they switch between all 6 of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I go to visit the High Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti is the bridge tender on duty. He’s wearing orange alameda county coveralls, and a psychedelic trucker hat for a disc golf supply company. This bridge sees less traffic, so has a calmer vibe.. Across the water I can see houseboats bobbing up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a lot going on out there. It’s peaceful. The birds. Oh man. When you get these huge flocks that come flying in here and settle into the estuary, it’s like a, like a painting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vincent has been a bridge tender for more than ten years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the first regular thing that I got into that gave me a stability working for the county, which has been awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s seen some things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like a guy with a couch once came down with a, a, you know, like the small little trolling motor on the back? I think he was floating on, on a piece of a dock with a couch on it. A little motor. He’s fishing. He was having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that in order to be a bridge tender, you have to be ok with spending a lot of time by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some guys paint, paint, little, uh, pictures, you know, watercolors of the boats and stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says one bridge tender fixes electronics to pass the time. Vincent, likes to bring his Ukelele. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I just, uh, yeah. Sit here and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>(Ukelele Music)\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when you’re here on like, you know, Christmas Day and New Year’s Eve and Thanksgiving, I worked all those holidays this year. I dunno, you gotta have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you ever feel lonely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yeah, it’s kind of hard to have a relationship if you’re doing graveyards, you know, seven nights of the month and you’re on swing shift. So you take off at two o’clock and get home at 11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being a bridge tender can be tough, but its also rewarding. Here’s Damon, the bridge tender we heard from in the beginning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>It’s honest work. It’s, uh, and it’s kind of a special thing, these sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job. It, it does. There’s not a lot of it left, and, uh, I’m proud to be part of it. I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says he’s started to bring his kids to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about Alameda, including how it isn’t actually a natural island – hit up our show notes where we’ve linked some other Bay Curious episodes you might enjoy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is gearing up for KQED Fest – an all-day open house at KQED’s headquarters in San Francisco. It’s a block party with educational activities, live music, food, and more! I’ll be doing a fireside chat about how we make Bay Curious at 11:15 a.m. Tickets are free, but you do need to register. You can do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Big thanks to all our members out there who help keep Bay Curious going. If you aren’t a member yet – please consider joining at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Like many people who travel to and from the city of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/alameda\">Alameda\u003c/a>, Sarah Reid, one day, found herself facing a bridge that was temporarily disconnected.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Park Street Bridge, a forest green drawbridge, about the length of a football field, had split open, casting the four-lane bridge at a 70-degree angle in the air so a boat could pass underneath.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The opening and closing of Alameda’s drawbridges is a familiar ritual for people who travel to the Bay Area’s island city. Alameda is connected to the rest of the Bay Area by six bridges, as well as two underwater tunnels. All but two of the bridges are required to open 24 hours a day, sometimes on very short notice, in order to let ships travel down the Oakland Estuary, which separates Alameda and Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With nothing to do but to wait, Reid peered through her windshield and noticed a little tower connected to the bridge, with a room full of windows at the top. She wondered if someone was inside that room, and what they did up there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I remember wondering, does someone just sit there all day? And what is that like?” Reid said. “What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad day? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070402\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070402\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_020-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The High Street Bridge begins to lift over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>There was, in fact, a bridge tender in the control tower of the Park Street Bridge that day, just as there has been for decades. Bridge tenders are the workers responsible for safely opening and closing the bridges, so that people both on land and on water can move through the area. It’s a job that comes with life -or-death public safety risks, stunning views, ample alone time, and a strong connection to the history of the island city itself.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A public service job with risks\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>“ It’s the best job in the world,” said John Williams, a bridge tender for Alameda County Public Works Agency, who has held the job for 16 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams was the bridge tender on duty at the Park Street Bridge on a sunny winter morning earlier this year. From his perch inside the control tower, Williams could see up and down the estuary, with Berkeley and downtown Oakland in the distance.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One end of the room is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette. On that particular day, there was a French press and an avocado sitting on the counter.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Because the bridges are staffed 24/7, with bridge tenders working day, swing and graveyard shifts, each bridge control tower has its own kitchenette and bathroom.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams said the perks include beautiful sunsets, great wildlife viewing and dedicated colleagues. But he also takes pride in being a public servant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines,” Williams said. “You could crush a car or kill somebody if you’re not following procedure properly.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said being a bridge tender requires constant vigilance, ensuring nobody is in harm’s way when the bridge is moving. Still, there have been accidents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People will run on the bridge while it’s moving, and I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s just the terrestrial side of his worries. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You’ll get a call and tug and barge is coming in with 20 tons of gravel, and a fat tide and wind behind them, and you have to open the bridge because it’s very hard for them to stop,” Williams said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Boats can schedule openings ahead of time or call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat captain makes an appointment at least two hours ahead of time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Williams is relaxed and friendly in his downtime at work, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. When opening the bridge, the first thing he does is open all the blinds in the control tower, so he has full visibility. He stops speaking to anyone else around so that he can concentrate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He activates an alarm bell as he makes an announcement over a loudspeaker, telling the public to stand clear. Then he drops the gates that block the road and sidewalk leading to the bridge. He double and triple checks the security cameras and walks out on a little catwalk adjacent to the tower to verify that nobody is on the bridge. Then he initiates the opening.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Metal locks underneath the bridge disconnect, an electric motor deep in the bowels below the bridge begins to whir, a massive counterweight sinks into a pit and the bridge begins to rise.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070399\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070399\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_008-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A flock of pigeons flies near the Park Street Bridge over the Oakland Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For second-generation bridge tender Damon Wallace, it’s a special moment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’re these giant machines, and you don’t realize it until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button, and then your world starts to tilt sideways,” Wallace, whose father and uncle worked as bridge tenders, said as he gazed up at the bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For a minute, you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happen right in front of you. It’s one of my favorite things,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>After the bridge reaches its apex, Williams repeats the process in reverse until the bridge is back together, and the traffic on the bridge resumes again.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The chaotic past of Alameda’s bridges\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland separating it from Oakland, and bridge tenders have been part of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The problem started in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Oakland’s right there, we sure would like to get over there,” Alameda historian Dennis Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Back then, Alameda wasn’t yet an island, but connected to Oakland by a marshy stretch of land at its eastern end. Years later, in 1902, the Army Corps of Engineers would finish work dredging that channel, flooding the area connecting Oakland’s inner harbor with San Leandro Bay, making Alameda an island.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Still, even before that, crossing the marshy stretch of land connecting it to Oakland wasn’t easy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first bridge to connect Alameda to Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get-go, it had its fair share of tragedies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. Evanosky said it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident in which 13 people were killed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt three more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing, according to Bernard C. Winn, the author of \u003cem>California Drawbridges\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>County officials made the decision to dismantle the bridge in 1928, after the construction of the Webster Street Tube, an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda, made it obsolete. This is the pattern most of Alameda’s bridges have followed. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt at least once.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070403\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070403\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_021-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator with the Alameda County Public Works Agency, sits at the controls used to raise and lower the drawbridge over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 13, 2026, in Alameda. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>But it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. Evanosky said early Alameda residents used to “ride the bridges,” clinging on as the bridges swung open and taking them for a ride.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>People even did this on the current version of the Park Street Bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s pretty dangerous. So they put a stop to that,” Evanosky said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the current version of the Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda, Edith Bird, and a man from Oakland, Edward M. Drotloff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Newspaper clippings from the time describe it as a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from Oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What it takes\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>At the High Street Bridge control tower, just a half-mile down up the estuary from the Park Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti strummed his ukulele in a moment of downtime during his shift.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Part of the job is to stare out the window and the ukulele accompanies it pretty good,” Cerletti said. “You have to have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070401\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070401\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_018-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Vincent Cerletti, the High Street Bridge operator, looks out from the bridge’s operator tower on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The Miller-Sweeney Bridge is visible in the distance. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>He said other bridge tenders paint watercolors or fix small electronics between bridge openings.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cerletti has been a bridge tender since 2014, and said the stability of working for Alameda County has been great, he said. But the job can get a little lonely.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ You have to be able to be comfortable with yourself sitting up here too, because you can get go a little stir crazy being alone all the time,” Cerletti said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Generations of bridge tenders\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The work of being a bridge tender has seeped into Damon Wallace’s bones. Wallace fondly remembers moments from his youth, like when he greeted his father at the door in the morning after a graveyard shift, noticing the smell of oil, grease and work his father would bring home with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ I started working here and I was like, ‘oh, that’s that smell,’ I get it now,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12070400\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12070400\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/01/011526_ALAMEDABRIDGES_GH_013-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Steel beams and the roadway deck are seen as the Park Street Bridge lifts over the Oakland-Alameda Estuary on Jan. 15, 2026, in Alameda. The double-leaf bascule bridge spans 372 feet and is raised to about 70 degrees for most openings. \u003ccite>(Gustavo Hernandez/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Even the sound of rubber car tires driving on the bridges’ metal road deck, a sort of ever-present drone around the bridges, has become soothing for him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ Over the years, I’ve gotten to actually look and put hands on these things and understand what they are for and why they’re here. My childhood became my adulthood, and my world got bigger somehow,” Wallace said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He said he’s started to bring his children to work with him.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“ It’s honest work, and it’s kind of a special thing, this sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job,” Wallace said. “There’s not a lot of it left, and I’m proud to be part of it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Crossing bridges can be essential to getting around the Bay Area. No matter what side of the water you live on, odds are, you’re probably going to use a bridge sooner than later. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And for the people who live, work or just hang out in the City of Alameda, crossing a bridge is almost non-negotiable. The island is connected to the rest of the Bay by six drawbridges, as well as two underwater tunnels, that span the Oakland Estuary. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When those bridges open to let a boat pass, everybody has to wait. One day, Sarah Reid was in her car, watching the Park Street bridge open, when she noticed a little room attached to one of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I remember looking up at those little rooms wondering, does someone just sit up there all day? And what is that like, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> She also wants to hear some stories …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sarah Reid:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> What’s a good day look like? What’s a bad da y? What’s the weirdest thing that’s ever happened \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Turns out – yeah! There’s a bridge tender sitting in that little room 24/7. And they’ve seen a lot! KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman has the story.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>\u003ci>Cars on Bridge Noise\u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Car tires hum against the steel deck of the Park Street Bridge. This hypnotic drone is the bridge’s soundtrack. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I grew up on these bridges. Um, the sound of the cars going overhead is, is soothing to me. It’s like a, it’s a comfort thing. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s Damon Wallace, he’s a bridge utility worker for Alameda County’s Public Works Agency.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve been doing that for about two years, and prior to that I was a bridge tender. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bridge tenders are the people that operate Alameda’s drawbridges. It runs in his family, his father and his uncle both held the job when he was a kid. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">My dad 25 years. Uh, my uncle, uh, a little bit less than that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We’re standing in the machinery room underneath the Park Street Bridge…its a large concrete bunker full of tools and the giant electrical motor that opens and closes the bridge\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s like a little Home Depot in here, just for the bridge, they’ve got everything they need to keep the bridge running which is essential because The Park Street Bridge is the busiest of Alameda’s bridges. Around 40,000 vehicles travel across its four lanes on an average weekday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Up on the deck of the bridge, which is about the length of a football field we can see Berkeley, downtown Oakland, and ships at the Port of Oakland. We walk up to the bridge tower. It’s fixed on the Alameda side of the bridge, and almost looks like a little miniature clock tower. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Knock, knock. Hello. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Come on up. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Carl Speaker:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> How you doing, John? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Good. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We head up a spiral staircase to the top floor. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Welcome to Park Street Bridge, uh, Alameda County Public Works Agency. How you doing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John Williams is the bridge tender on duty right now. He’s got a big white beard and his orange public works shirt tucked into his work pants. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s the best job in the world, you know, I mean, I, it’s really an excellent job \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The top floor is just one room with windows all around, giving the operator a 360 degree view of the bridge and the Oakland estuary. One end is all business: with a control panel for operating the drawbridge, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Wow. There are a lot of big red buttons there, \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">right? There are. And you don’t just randomly push them either. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Oh, that’s too bad. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">There’s also a maritime radio, security cameras, a log book and a laptop. In a corner of the other side of the room is a little kitchenette, there’s a french press and an avocado sitting on the counter. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’ve seen a lot of wildlife out here over, over the years. You know, way l one time, lot of otters now and then, um, a lot of seabirds.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Some great sunsets too. John says he found the job on Craigslist. Besides the perks, he says this job has some big responsibilities. Public safety is their number one concern. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Our first job is to make sure no one gets hurt while we’re operating these massive machines.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">A normal opening of the bridge splits the road deck in half, tons of concrete and steel lift into the sky at a 70 degree angle, about 143 feet in the air. The process requires constant vigilance and double, triple checking.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Cause people will run on the bridge while it’s moving. They’ll go underneath the barriers. I think twice we’ve had people run their cars through the barrier. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s just keeping the PEOPLE safe. The bridge also needs to be opened in a timely manner so that a boat doesn’t hit it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">You get a call and tug and barge is coming in with like, you know whatever, 20 tons of gravel, you know, with a, a fat tide behind them pushing ’em in, in wind, and you have to open the bridge. You can’t not open the bridge. It’s very hard for ’em to stop. Really hard for ’em to stop.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">All but two of Alameda’s drawbridges are staffed around the clock because ships, including the nearby Coast Guard base, need to be able to travel up and down the estuary at all hours. On a busy day, the Park Street bridge might open and close 14 different times. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I could be in a crowd of a thousand people and if somebody on the other side of that crowd said Park Street Bridge, I would hear them. Because I’m trained to hear it, you know, the radio call.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Boats can schedule openings ahead of time, or just call to request one. The bridges don’t open during the morning and afternoon rush hour unless a boat makes an appointment\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">John comes off pretty relaxed and friendly, but when it comes time to open the bridge, he gets intensely focused. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Right now, there isn’t a ship passing, this is an operational check, that the tenders do from time to time, to make sure everything is working as it should. John starts by opening all the blinds in the little tower room. He wants full visibility. And he stops talking to me. He says he needs to concentrate. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams (in scene): \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">St and clear for bridge opening. Please stand clear for Park Street Bridge opening\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">First he drops the gates and barriers to keep cars and pedestrians off the bridge, and makes sure all the traffic is stopped. Then he walks out on a little catwalk extending out from the tower, and double checks that nobody is in harms way.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sounds of birds\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Just then, recordings of birds play underneath the bridge, in an attempt to shoo nesting pigeons away. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then it gets pretty quiet. The hum of traffic stops, and the bridge begins to rise. You can hear the electrical motors whirring. For Damon, the second generation bridge worker, it’s a special moment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s these giant machines, and you don’t realize they’re machines until you’re up in the tower the first time and you press that button and the your world starts to tilt sideways.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says there’s something magical about it. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For a minute you get to just sit there and watch this amazing, surreal thing happened right in front of you. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of my favorite things, you know? It always has been. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">With the bridge sticking straight up in the air, John checks again before letting it down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Okay, you guys. All right?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">good!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Williams: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming down.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then, John guides the bridge slowly back down, metal locks click back together underneath the road deck, and the traffic starts again. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s clear the bridge tenders are essential. But in this world of technological innovation, especially artificial intelligence, I wonder, how much longer will these jobs be around? I put that question to John Medlock, he’s the Deputy Director of Maintenance Operation for Alameda County, PublicWorks Agency.\u003c/span>\u003cb> \u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>John Medlock: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">At some point in time, you know, maybe, maybe everything needs to be replaced. We’ll probably find new technology or, or new way of spanning the, uh, the estuary. But right now that’s what we have and love it or hate it. If that’s what we have. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He thinks the bridge tenders, will be around for the foreseeable future. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> When we return – some history of these drawbridges. And the unique ways bridge tenders pass the time. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Nowadays Alameda’s bridges are a reliable way to get on and off the island. But it wasn’t always that way. Here’s Azul again…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Ever since early European settlers founded the city of Alameda, its residents have had to navigate getting across the strip of water and marshland … separating it from Oakland. And bridge tenders have been part of that history. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The problem started in, in the, in the 1870s when people on the west end of Alameda complained, ‘Boy Oakland’s right over there. We’d like to get over there.’\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s historian Dennis Evanosky. The first bridge to connect Alameda to what’s now Oakland was the Webster Street bridge, built by Alameda County in 1871. It’s now long gone. And pretty much from the get go, it had its fair share of tragedies. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Webster Street Bridge was a disaster. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It wasn’t a drawbridge, but rather a swing bridge, that could turn 90 degrees, out of the way of ship traffic. This was the design of most early Alameda bridges. But Evanosky says it was hit by ships multiple times, and in 1900 was the site of a tragic train accident. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They misunderstood a signal and, and the, the whole train dumped into the estuary.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thirteen people were killed. The Webster Street bridge couldn’t catch a break. It was destroyed and rebuilt 3 more times, and its successors were the site of more ship collisions, a fire, and an attempted bombing. The bridge was dismantled for the last time, shortly after the construction of the Webster Street Tube in 1928., the tube is an underwater tunnel connecting Oakland and Alameda. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And that’s kind of the story of all of Alameda’s bridges. Some don’t exist anymore, but the ones that do have been rebuilt, at least once.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So each of the bridges has two lives. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And it hasn’t been all ship strikes and disasters. Alameda residents have had some fun along the way. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And then the people, uh, who, who were really close by when they heard the boat toot for permission, they’d all run down there and they’d ride the bridge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">…Climbing on the bridge as it swung open and taking it for a ride. People even did this on the current version of the park street bridge. Clinging on as the drawbridge raised open. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dennis Evanosky: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s pretty dangerous. So they, they, they put a stop to that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The cities of Alameda and Oakland commemorated the opening of the latest Park Street Bridge in 1935, with a wedding between a woman from Alameda and a man from Oakland.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voice over reading newspaper clip: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Miss Edith Bird of Alameda became Mrs. Edward M. Drotloff of Oakland yesterday afternoon. The ceremony that united them as they stood at the site of the newly-completed Park Street Bridge symbolized the uniting of the two cities by the huge structure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It was a huge party. There was a parade, marathon runners from oakland, and the mayors of the two towns clasped hands as hundreds came out to see the new bridge. The same one that stands today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Today, there are 14 bridge tenders that work the Alameda bridges, and they switch between all 6 of the bridges. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">When I go to visit the High Street Bridge, Vincent Cerletti is the bridge tender on duty. He’s wearing orange alameda county coveralls, and a psychedelic trucker hat for a disc golf supply company. This bridge sees less traffic, so has a calmer vibe.. Across the water I can see houseboats bobbing up and down. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> There’s a lot going on out there. It’s peaceful. The birds. Oh man. When you get these huge flocks that come flying in here and settle into the estuary, it’s like a, like a painting.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Vincent has been a bridge tender for more than ten years. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s the first regular thing that I got into that gave me a stability working for the county, which has been awesome. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And he’s seen some things. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Like a guy with a couch once came down with a, a, you know, like the small little trolling motor on the back? I think he was floating on, on a piece of a dock with a couch on it. A little motor. He’s fishing. He was having a good time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says that in order to be a bridge tender, you have to be ok with spending a lot of time by yourself.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Some guys paint, paint, little, uh, pictures, you know, watercolors of the boats and stuff. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says one bridge tender fixes electronics to pass the time. Vincent, likes to bring his Ukelele. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah. So I just, uh, yeah. Sit here and.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>(Ukelele Music)\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And when you’re here on like, you know, Christmas Day and New Year’s Eve and Thanksgiving, I worked all those holidays this year. I dunno, you gotta have somewhat of a little hobby to pass the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Do you ever feel lonely? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Vincent Cerletti:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Sure. Yeah, it’s kind of hard to have a relationship if you’re doing graveyards, you know, seven nights of the month and you’re on swing shift. So you take off at two o’clock and get home at 11. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Being a bridge tender can be tough, but its also rewarding. Here’s Damon, the bridge tender we heard from in the beginning. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Damon Wallace: \u003c/b>It’s honest work. It’s, uh, and it’s kind of a special thing, these sort of infrastructure, this kind of machinery, this sort of job. It, it does. There’s not a lot of it left, and, uh, I’m proud to be part of it. I am.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">He says he’s started to bring his kids to work. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Azul Dahlstrom-Eckman.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">If you want to learn more about Alameda, including how it isn’t actually a natural island – hit up our show notes where we’ve linked some other Bay Curious episodes you might enjoy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is gearing up for KQED Fest – an all-day open house at KQED’s headquarters in San Francisco. It’s a block party with educational activities, live music, food, and more! I’ll be doing a fireside chat about how we make Bay Curious at 11:15 a.m. Tickets are free, but you do need to register. You can do it at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/live\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/live\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made by Christopher Beale, Katrina Schwartz and me Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We get extra support from Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Our show is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Big thanks to all our members out there who help keep Bay Curious going. If you aren’t a member yet – please consider joining at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a good one. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "why-its-taken-concord-40-years-to-turn-a-former-bomb-site-into-a-neighborhood",
"title": "Why It’s Taking Concord Decades to Turn a Former Bomb Site into a Neighborhood",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard loves living in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/east-bay\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>. She said it’s safe, walkable and she bikes everywhere. The only downside? She lives right next to a 12-lane freeway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[I’m] super thankful to have a house, but… noise pollution is a little much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Howard was daydreaming about living near open space and started looking around online for places that fit the bill. Is it even possible to buy a house in the East Bay next to undeveloped land?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there, in Concord, behind a local high school, was a swath of green rolling hills big enough to accommodate a new airport. When she zoomed in, she saw puzzling features, grass mounds in a grid pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is this?” she wondered to herself. “Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those grassy mounds in a grid pattern are huge concrete bunkers, wider than a train car, used by the Navy for more than 60 years to store weapons, bombs and ammunition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What happened at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dozens of these ammunition bunkers, grass-covered trapezoids poking up from the landscape, are what’s known as “bunker city,” just one part of a 5,000-acre inland section of a military base called the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The storage units are empty now, but they once stored the weapons of war that the Navy needed to fight wars from the 1940s all the way through the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/persian-gulf-war\">1991 Gulf War\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Railroads connected this inland base to the bay where artillery was loaded onto warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081249\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081249\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason looks through her back fence at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there,” said Kathy Gleason, who moved next to the Naval base back in 1974. “They were moving munitions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even though Kathy’s backyard is separated from bunker city by just two fences, you can’t tell she lives next to a military site. By design, the mounds blend into the lush green landscape to camouflage them from enemies coming by air or by foot. Besides the mounds, there aren’t many buildings. And it has always been relatively quiet here, with vistas of sheep and cattle grazing. That’s what drew her here in the first place, 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We used to see tule elk roaming around,” Gleason said. “Now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2005, everything changed. The Concord Naval Weapons Station closed, as part of a federal initiative — the Base Realignment and Closure process (BRAC) — to cut military costs and adapt to new systems of warfare. Through BRAC, hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">dozens in the Bay Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12080794 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260408-baycurioustacobell01913_TV.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment. The 5,200 acres behind Gleason’s house would change hands. She feared a big developer would swoop in to turn it into a metropolis, and before that, a big, noisy construction zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all kind of panicked,” Gleason said. “We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gleason became a key organizer in the Concord Naval Weapons Station Neighborhood Alliance, which tabled at farmers markets, knocked on doors, and showed up at city planning meetings advocating to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. We were so angry,” Gleason said about their organizing efforts back in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We told them, we are not going away. We want this preserved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Reenvisioning ‘Bunker City’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Twenty years later, all the peace and quiet that the Concord Neighborhood Alliance wanted is still there. Not a single permanent structure has been built on the former weapons base yet. What’s the holdup?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, the city went through a seven-year process of engaging residents to come up with a master vision for the site. It culminated in \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/152/The-Area-Plan\">the 2012 area plan\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081257\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081257\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Josh Roden, a developer at Brookfield Residential working with the city of Concord to redevelop the Concord Naval Weapons Station, stands on a hillside overlooking the former naval base in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All the while, there was a lot of cleanup and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">arsenic and lead\u003c/a> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/labor-dispute-stalls-redevelopment-of-concord-naval-weapons-station/2210946/\">jumped ship,\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/deal-for-planned-development-at-concord-naval-weapons-station-collapses/\">one was booted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the slow and deliberate pace the Navy and city have been on is not necessarily a bad thing, the current master developer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community,” said Josh Roden, president of Brookfield Northern California, which is \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/\">managing the redevelopment of the site\u003c/a>. “It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden’s team is now tasked with implementing the specifics of the 2012 general plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like building a small city,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Concord residents expect 12,000 residential units, which is roughly equivalent to the nearby town of Pleasant Hill, home to 34,000 people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Six million square feet are earmarked for retail, office and institutional space, and businesses such as hotels and restaurants, which will be most dense near the North Concord Bart Station. That’s more space than the footprint of Disneyland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be a sports complex and city park, stretching over 175 acres, and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school, along with elementary and middle schools. Fire and police stations will be built, as well as a food bank, and a pedestrian path along Mount Diablo Creek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plans are grand and exciting, but Concord residents will have to wait a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden said construction won’t break ground until 2030, and it will probably be “a 40-year build out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first phase includes housing near the North Concord BART station. Residents can expect more electric vehicle infrastructure, denser housing, and retail space blended with other leisure activities. How quickly it all moves along depends on the health of the economy, Roden said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081248\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason’s home abuts the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Open space advocates like Kathy Gleason have already had a notable win. Half of the inland naval base — roughly 2,500 acres, has already been handed over to East Bay Regional Parks. \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/thurgood-marshall-regional-park-home-port-chicago-50\">Thurgood Marshall Regional Park\u003c/a> is not yet open to the public, but when it does, visitors will be able to see the ammunition bunkers during historic tours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here,” said Gleason, who also said she now understands that housing is a critical need in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard of Walnut Creek said she’s glad the Concord housing development will be near open space. She just hopes she’s alive when it all comes to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of scary how long it takes,” she said. But sometimes, “good things take time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We recently got a question from a woman named Suzanne Howard. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She bought a house with her husband in Walnut Creek two years ago and she loves the place. How it feels safe and walkable to lots of shops. They bike everywhere. But one thing gives Suzanne a little buyer’s remorse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s right next to the 12 lane freeway. It’s super noisy, super thankful to have a house, but like quality of life noise pollution is a little much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One day, Suzanne was feeling curious, and she started studying online maps, looking for open space in the East Bay. Where could more housing be built near her that might offer a little more peace and quiet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I found as I zoomed out, I saw east of Concord High School green open fields, gorgeous greenery hillside, some streets. And then little mounds, little grass mounds which, all in a grid pattern. What is this thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Five thousand acres of open space with seemingly nothing going on. It wasn’t a park or anything. Just a big open area and those mounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. On today’s episode, we asked KQED’s Pauline Bartolone to scout out that area behind Concord High School. What are those grassy mounds in a grid pattern? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll give you a hint, it’s not a cemetery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok. Is it open to the public? Can I go on a walk there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, right now, no. In a few years, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about Suzanne’s question, could housing be built there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, actually that’s in the works, we’ll get to more on that in a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, so tell me what you saw when you went out there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I found someone who lives right near Concord High School, and those 5,000 acres of rolling hills are right behind her house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Kathy Gleason. We’re in Concord in my backyard, and looking at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station. That property our listener Suzanne saw on the map, belongs to the Navy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During World War 2, the navy stored tons of explosives here in huge concrete bunkers camouflaged with earth to look like grassy hills. Those are the mounds Suzanne saw on the map. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. You can see the bunkers back there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over a hundred concrete weapons storage units here supplied bullets, missiles, bombs, anything the military needed for combat all the way up to the first Gulf War. Railroads connected this inland base to the Bay where artillery was loaded onto warships. When Kathy moved here in 1974, it was active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there. So they were moving munitions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy says she loves living next to a weapons base… because.. it’s quiet. Those ammo bunker mounds…. they’re empty now… and they blend into the lush green landscape… And there aren’t many other buildings there. She says it’s always been pretty calm, part of what drew her here in the first place 50 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Who wouldn’t like this in their backyard? You can hear that plane, but other than that it’s pretty quiet. When we first moved in, there were a lot of sheep out there. There’s still a lot of cattle out there grazing. So we used to see tule elk roaming around, now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then Concord residents got news that could change everything. The weapons station would close in 2005. This huge swath of open land, roughly the size of San Francisco International airport, was going to change hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all kind of panicked. All the neighbors along here kind of panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They worried a developer would swoop in and build a metropolis, a big noisy construction project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop? And the noise and everything that would go with developing a project this big, this is huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station closure was part of a federal project to cut military costs. It was called BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure process. Hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide. Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were so angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Locally, Kathy quickly became a key organizer among neighbors pushing to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We quickly got a group together, went down the City Hall. Surprised the hell out of the city council members because we were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For years, they tabled at farmers markets and knocked on people’s doors to educate Concord residents about the potential for development. And of course, they were squeaky wheels at city council meetings and planning commission hearings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We told them, we are not going away, you know, listen to us, we’re not going away, we want this preserved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they got their wish, in part. Half of the area behind Kathy’s house has been handed over to east bay regional parks. The old ammo bunkers there will become part of historic tours. And when it opens, locals can hike, camp or have a picnic next to protected wildlife areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here. We hope that it works. We slowed down after we got the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up, we’ll learn how the other half of the land will be used. That’s after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> KQED’s Pauline Bartolone takes us back to the Concord mounds, to find out what’s planned here. But this time, from a different vantage point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy and her neighbors were up in arms about plans to build on the military site next to their homes. That was two decades ago, and all that peace and quiet? It’s still there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are looking out over the valley or floor area of old bunker city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh Roden is a private developer, and he took me onto the old Concord Naval Weapons station. From our vantage point you can see the former weapons storage clearly… dozens of massive trapezoids poking up from the soil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re mostly concrete bunkers with earth over them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh heads up Brookfield Residential in Northern California, which is working with the city of Concord to redevelop the navy base based on a roadmap Concord residents like Kathy helped create. When it’s done, the site will have housing, businesses, schools and parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community, getting a whole bunch of feedback. It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage through that, because it’s a lot of opinions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But so far, it’s been a lot of discussion, 20 years worth. And not a single permanent structure has been built here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the most important parts is the first, being able to flush a toilet and turn a light on. So we really do have to go bring power. We have to bring potable water, we have to bring storm drains.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what’s the hold up? Well, there’s been a lot of clean up and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arsenic and lead\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One jumped ship and one was booted. And before all that, Concord spent seven years coming up with a master plan with residents. A vision for the site.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they ended up coming up with what we think is a very reasonable and good area plan, but it did take some time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their plans are grand… just down the hill from where Josh and I are standing, will be some of the 12,000 residential homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of units, the size of it is similar to Pleasant Hill. So for context the population that it would generate. It’s similar to Pleasant Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’d be housing for something like 34-thousand people. Also in the plan are retail and office space, most dense near the North Concord Bart Station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hotels and maybe more restaurants and a place people go leisure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the outline for a sports park – stretching over 175 acres – and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are also coordinating some of the elementary school, middle school potentially to be in that vicinity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fire stations, police stations. A food bank and a pedestrian path along Mt Diablo creek, All the amenities of a town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s like building a small city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That may sound exciting but it will all take a looong time. Like decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Currently, it’s planned out for probably a 40 year build out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They won’t even break ground until 2031, and there’s still some bureaucratic hurdles. Ultimately, Josh says how quickly it gets built depends on the health of the economy, Housing is what pays off for the developer, so the the first to go up will be homes close to the North Concord BART station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite her early reservations about building on the site, Kathy has had a bit of a change of heart about new housing. She says the Bay Area needs it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were not as panicked as we were. I think I do understand. Let’s do it. Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a long time. Geez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I took all this back to Suzanne Howard, our question asker. She likes that the Concord development will have open space near it, not a 12 lane highway like the one next to her house. As far as taking more than half a century to finish the new housing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s kind of scary how long it takes. But hopefully, you know, assuming positive intent and the cleanup hopefully is being very thorough and good things take time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She just hopes she’s alive to see it come to fruition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to our question asker this week, Suzanne. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that we send a little thank you gift to each question asker? Just one more reason to take a few minutes and send your burning question our way! Ask at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is our last Monday episode during our experimental period of dropping two episodes a week. We’ve learned so much — and had a lot of fun answering twice as many of your questions these past few months. We always planned this to be a limited-term trial — so we’re back to our once a week publishing schedule next week. If you have thoughts or feedback for us as we take stock and move forward, email us at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by me, Olivia Allen Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and you! Yes you are a producer on this show if you are a member of KQED. Your financial support makes everything possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep gratitude to all the KQED members out there, and if you aren’t one yet, join us! Give at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard loves living in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/east-bay\">Walnut Creek\u003c/a>. She said it’s safe, walkable and she bikes everywhere. The only downside? She lives right next to a 12-lane freeway.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“[I’m] super thankful to have a house, but… noise pollution is a little much,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One day, Howard was daydreaming about living near open space and started looking around online for places that fit the bill. Is it even possible to buy a house in the East Bay next to undeveloped land?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And there, in Concord, behind a local high school, was a swath of green rolling hills big enough to accommodate a new airport. When she zoomed in, she saw puzzling features, grass mounds in a grid pattern.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What is this?” she wondered to herself. “Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Those grassy mounds in a grid pattern are huge concrete bunkers, wider than a train car, used by the Navy for more than 60 years to store weapons, bombs and ammunition.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>What happened at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station\u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Dozens of these ammunition bunkers, grass-covered trapezoids poking up from the landscape, are what’s known as “bunker city,” just one part of a 5,000-acre inland section of a military base called the Concord Naval Weapons Station. The storage units are empty now, but they once stored the weapons of war that the Navy needed to fight wars from the 1940s all the way through the \u003ca href=\"https://www.history.com/articles/persian-gulf-war\">1991 Gulf War\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Railroads connected this inland base to the bay where artillery was loaded onto warships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081249\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081249\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-07-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason looks through her back fence at the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there,” said Kathy Gleason, who moved next to the Naval base back in 1974. “They were moving munitions.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Even though Kathy’s backyard is separated from bunker city by just two fences, you can’t tell she lives next to a military site. By design, the mounds blend into the lush green landscape to camouflage them from enemies coming by air or by foot. Besides the mounds, there aren’t many buildings. And it has always been relatively quiet here, with vistas of sheep and cattle grazing. That’s what drew her here in the first place, 50 years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We used to see tule elk roaming around,” Gleason said. “Now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Then in 2005, everything changed. The Concord Naval Weapons Station closed, as part of a federal initiative — the Base Realignment and Closure process (BRAC) — to cut military costs and adapt to new systems of warfare. Through BRAC, hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide, including \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12022479/why-are-there-so-many-abandoned-military-bases-in-the-bay-area\">dozens in the Bay Area\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment. The 5,200 acres behind Gleason’s house would change hands. She feared a big developer would swoop in to turn it into a metropolis, and before that, a big, noisy construction zone.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We all kind of panicked,” Gleason said. “We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Gleason became a key organizer in the Concord Naval Weapons Station Neighborhood Alliance, which tabled at farmers markets, knocked on doors, and showed up at city planning meetings advocating to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. We were so angry,” Gleason said about their organizing efforts back in 2006.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We told them, we are not going away. We want this preserved.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003cstrong>Reenvisioning ‘Bunker City’ \u003c/strong>\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Twenty years later, all the peace and quiet that the Concord Neighborhood Alliance wanted is still there. Not a single permanent structure has been built on the former weapons base yet. What’s the holdup?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>First, the city went through a seven-year process of engaging residents to come up with a master vision for the site. It culminated in \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/152/The-Area-Plan\">the 2012 area plan\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081257\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081257\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-12-KQED-1-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Josh Roden, a developer at Brookfield Residential working with the city of Concord to redevelop the Concord Naval Weapons Station, stands on a hillside overlooking the former naval base in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>All the while, there was a lot of cleanup and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">arsenic and lead\u003c/a> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One \u003ca href=\"https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/labor-dispute-stalls-redevelopment-of-concord-naval-weapons-station/2210946/\">jumped ship,\u003c/a> and \u003ca href=\"https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/deal-for-planned-development-at-concord-naval-weapons-station-collapses/\">one was booted\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But the slow and deliberate pace the Navy and city have been on is not necessarily a bad thing, the current master developer said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community,” said Josh Roden, president of Brookfield Northern California, which is \u003ca href=\"https://concordreuseproject.org/\">managing the redevelopment of the site\u003c/a>. “It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden’s team is now tasked with implementing the specifics of the 2012 general plan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s like building a small city,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Concord residents expect 12,000 residential units, which is roughly equivalent to the nearby town of Pleasant Hill, home to 34,000 people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Six million square feet are earmarked for retail, office and institutional space, and businesses such as hotels and restaurants, which will be most dense near the North Concord Bart Station. That’s more space than the footprint of Disneyland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There will be a sports complex and city park, stretching over 175 acres, and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school, along with elementary and middle schools. Fire and police stations will be built, as well as a food bank, and a pedestrian path along Mount Diablo Creek.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The plans are grand and exciting, but Concord residents will have to wait a long time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Roden said construction won’t break ground until 2030, and it will probably be “a 40-year build out.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first phase includes housing near the North Concord BART station. Residents can expect more electric vehicle infrastructure, denser housing, and retail space blended with other leisure activities. How quickly it all moves along depends on the health of the economy, Roden said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081248\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003ca href=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081248\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1334\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-06-KQED-2-1536x1025.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Kathy Gleason’s home abuts the former Concord Naval Weapons Station in Concord on April 23, 2026. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Open space advocates like Kathy Gleason have already had a notable win. Half of the inland naval base — roughly 2,500 acres, has already been handed over to East Bay Regional Parks. \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/thurgood-marshall-regional-park-home-port-chicago-50\">Thurgood Marshall Regional Park\u003c/a> is not yet open to the public, but when it does, visitors will be able to see the ammunition bunkers during historic tours.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here,” said Gleason, who also said she now understands that housing is a critical need in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Suzanne Howard of Walnut Creek said she’s glad the Concord housing development will be near open space. She just hopes she’s alive when it all comes to fruition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s kind of scary how long it takes,” she said. But sometimes, “good things take time.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Hey everyone! This is Bay Curious — the podcast that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We recently got a question from a woman named Suzanne Howard. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She bought a house with her husband in Walnut Creek two years ago and she loves the place. How it feels safe and walkable to lots of shops. They bike everywhere. But one thing gives Suzanne a little buyer’s remorse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s right next to the 12 lane freeway. It’s super noisy, super thankful to have a house, but like quality of life noise pollution is a little much.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One day, Suzanne was feeling curious, and she started studying online maps, looking for open space in the East Bay. Where could more housing be built near her that might offer a little more peace and quiet?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And I found as I zoomed out, I saw east of Concord High School green open fields, gorgeous greenery hillside, some streets. And then little mounds, little grass mounds which, all in a grid pattern. What is this thing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Five thousand acres of open space with seemingly nothing going on. It wasn’t a park or anything. Just a big open area and those mounds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Could we build housing there? It’s prime real estate, why not? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. On today’s episode, we asked KQED’s Pauline Bartolone to scout out that area behind Concord High School. What are those grassy mounds in a grid pattern? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I’ll give you a hint, it’s not a cemetery. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok. Is it open to the public? Can I go on a walk there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Well, right now, no. In a few years, probably.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">What about Suzanne’s question, could housing be built there?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yes, actually that’s in the works, we’ll get to more on that in a minute. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Ok, so tell me what you saw when you went out there? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Well I found someone who lives right near Concord High School, and those 5,000 acres of rolling hills are right behind her house. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> My name is Kathy Gleason. We’re in Concord in my backyard, and looking at the Concord Naval Weapons Station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station. That property our listener Suzanne saw on the map, belongs to the Navy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">During World War 2, the navy stored tons of explosives here in huge concrete bunkers camouflaged with earth to look like grassy hills. Those are the mounds Suzanne saw on the map. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Go ahead. You can see the bunkers back there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Over a hundred concrete weapons storage units here supplied bullets, missiles, bombs, anything the military needed for combat all the way up to the first Gulf War. Railroads connected this inland base to the Bay where artillery was loaded onto warships. When Kathy moved here in 1974, it was active.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In years gone by, we could hear trains moving at night out there. So they were moving munitions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy says she loves living next to a weapons base… because.. it’s quiet. Those ammo bunker mounds…. they’re empty now… and they blend into the lush green landscape… And there aren’t many other buildings there. She says it’s always been pretty calm, part of what drew her here in the first place 50 years ago. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Who wouldn’t like this in their backyard? You can hear that plane, but other than that it’s pretty quiet. When we first moved in, there were a lot of sheep out there. There’s still a lot of cattle out there grazing. So we used to see tule elk roaming around, now we see turkeys, we hear coyotes, we’ll see deer every now and then. It’s pretty peaceful.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Then Concord residents got news that could change everything. The weapons station would close in 2005. This huge swath of open land, roughly the size of San Francisco International airport, was going to change hands. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We all kind of panicked. All the neighbors along here kind of panic.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They worried a developer would swoop in and build a metropolis, a big noisy construction project.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We wanted our peace and quiet, and we were concerned about what’s in the soil. What’s going to happen with that when they develop? And the noise and everything that would go with developing a project this big, this is huge.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The Concord Naval Weapons Station closure was part of a federal project to cut military costs. It was called BRAC, the Base Realignment and Closure process. Hundreds of military sites shuttered nationwide. Immediately, the city of Concord started making plans for redevelopment.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were so angry.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Locally, Kathy quickly became a key organizer among neighbors pushing to keep the weapons station land untouched and open.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We quickly got a group together, went down the City Hall. Surprised the hell out of the city council members because we were like the old town people that went down Main Street with pitchforks and torches. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> For years, they tabled at farmers markets and knocked on people’s doors to educate Concord residents about the potential for development. And of course, they were squeaky wheels at city council meetings and planning commission hearings.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We told them, we are not going away, you know, listen to us, we’re not going away, we want this preserved.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And they got their wish, in part. Half of the area behind Kathy’s house has been handed over to east bay regional parks. The old ammo bunkers there will become part of historic tours. And when it opens, locals can hike, camp or have a picnic next to protected wildlife areas. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We put years of our time into preserving what we can out here. We hope that it works. We slowed down after we got the park. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Coming up, we’ll learn how the other half of the land will be used. That’s after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> KQED’s Pauline Bartolone takes us back to the Concord mounds, to find out what’s planned here. But this time, from a different vantage point. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Kathy and her neighbors were up in arms about plans to build on the military site next to their homes. That was two decades ago, and all that peace and quiet? It’s still there. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> We are looking out over the valley or floor area of old bunker city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh Roden is a private developer, and he took me onto the old Concord Naval Weapons station. From our vantage point you can see the former weapons storage clearly… dozens of massive trapezoids poking up from the soil. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re mostly concrete bunkers with earth over them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Josh heads up Brookfield Residential in Northern California, which is working with the city of Concord to redevelop the navy base based on a roadmap Concord residents like Kathy helped create. When it’s done, the site will have housing, businesses, schools and parks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Concord did a really good job of engaging the entire community, getting a whole bunch of feedback. It’s a lot of work and effort, and it can be a little painful to manage through that, because it’s a lot of opinions. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">But so far, it’s been a lot of discussion, 20 years worth. And not a single permanent structure has been built here. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> One of the most important parts is the first, being able to flush a toilet and turn a light on. So we really do have to go bring power. We have to bring potable water, we have to bring storm drains.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So, what’s the hold up? Well, there’s been a lot of clean up and bureaucracy. The Navy had to remove \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/SiteProfiles/index.cfm?fuseaction=second.cleanup&id=0902778\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">arsenic and lead\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> from the soil and groundwater. The city had contracts with two developers before the current one. One jumped ship and one was booted. And before all that, Concord spent seven years coming up with a master plan with residents. A vision for the site.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">So they ended up coming up with what we think is a very reasonable and good area plan, but it did take some time.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And their plans are grand… just down the hill from where Josh and I are standing, will be some of the 12,000 residential homes. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">The number of units, the size of it is similar to Pleasant Hill. So for context the population that it would generate. It’s similar to Pleasant Hill.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’d be housing for something like 34-thousand people. Also in the plan are retail and office space, most dense near the North Concord Bart Station.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Hotels and maybe more restaurants and a place people go leisure. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Then there’s the outline for a sports park – stretching over 175 acres – and a higher education campus, like a college or technical school.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We are also coordinating some of the elementary school, middle school potentially to be in that vicinity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Fire stations, police stations. A food bank and a pedestrian path along Mt Diablo creek, All the amenities of a town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It’s like building a small city.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That may sound exciting but it will all take a looong time. Like decades. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Josh Roden:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Currently, it’s planned out for probably a 40 year build out.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">They won’t even break ground until 2031, and there’s still some bureaucratic hurdles. Ultimately, Josh says how quickly it gets built depends on the health of the economy, Housing is what pays off for the developer, so the the first to go up will be homes close to the North Concord BART station. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Despite her early reservations about building on the site, Kathy has had a bit of a change of heart about new housing. She says the Bay Area needs it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Kathy Gleason: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">We were not as panicked as we were. I think I do understand. Let’s do it. Let’s make it as good as we can for future generations. And that’s the best we can do.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">It’s a long time. Geez. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I took all this back to Suzanne Howard, our question asker. She likes that the Concord development will have open space near it, not a 12 lane highway like the one next to her house. As far as taking more than half a century to finish the new housing? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Suzanne Howard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">That’s kind of scary how long it takes. But hopefully, you know, assuming positive intent and the cleanup hopefully is being very thorough and good things take time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Pauline Bartolone: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">She just hopes she’s alive to see it come to fruition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That was KQED’s Pauline Bartolone.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Thanks to our question asker this week, Suzanne. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Did you know that we send a little thank you gift to each question asker? Just one more reason to take a few minutes and send your burning question our way! Ask at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">BayCurious.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">, or shoot us an email at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is our last Monday episode during our experimental period of dropping two episodes a week. We’ve learned so much — and had a lot of fun answering twice as many of your questions these past few months. We always planned this to be a limited-term trial — so we’re back to our once a week publishing schedule next week. If you have thoughts or feedback for us as we take stock and move forward, email us at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"mailto:baycurious@kqed.org\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">baycurious@kqed.org\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by me, Olivia Allen Price, Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and you! Yes you are a producer on this show if you are a member of KQED. Your financial support makes everything possible. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Deep gratitude to all the KQED members out there, and if you aren’t one yet, join us! Give at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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}
},
"city-arts": {
"id": "city-arts",
"title": "City Arts & Lectures",
"info": "A one-hour radio program to hear celebrated writers, artists and thinkers address contemporary ideas and values, often discussing the creative process. Please note: tapes or transcripts are not available",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/05/cityartsandlecture-300x300.jpg",
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"airtime": "SUN 1pm-2pm, TUE 10pm, WED 1am",
"meta": {
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"source": "City Arts & Lectures"
},
"link": "https://www.cityarts.net",
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"rss": "https://www.cityarts.net/feed/"
}
},
"closealltabs": {
"id": "closealltabs",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/closealltabs",
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"order": 1
},
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"id": "code-switch-life-kit",
"title": "Code Switch / Life Kit",
"info": "\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em>, which listeners will hear in the first part of the hour, has fearless and much-needed conversations about race. Hosted by journalists of color, the show tackles the subject of race head-on, exploring how it impacts every part of society — from politics and pop culture to history, sports and more.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em>, which will be in the second part of the hour, guides you through spaces and feelings no one prepares you for — from finances to mental health, from workplace microaggressions to imposter syndrome, from relationships to parenting. The show features experts with real world experience and shares their knowledge. Because everyone needs a little help being human.\u003cbr />\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/podcasts/510312/codeswitch\">\u003cem>Code Switch\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />\u003ca href=\"https://www.npr.org/lifekit\">\u003cem>Life Kit\u003c/em> offical site and podcast\u003c/a>\u003cbr />",
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"meta": {
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"id": "commonwealth-club",
"title": "Commonwealth Club of California Podcast",
"info": "The Commonwealth Club of California is the nation's oldest and largest public affairs forum. As a non-partisan forum, The Club brings to the public airwaves diverse viewpoints on important topics. The Club's weekly radio broadcast - the oldest in the U.S., dating back to 1924 - is carried across the nation on public radio stations and is now podcasting. Our website archive features audio of our recent programs, as well as selected speeches from our long and distinguished history. This podcast feed is usually updated twice a week and is always un-edited.",
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"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Commonwealth-Club-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
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"meta": {
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"source": "Commonwealth Club of California"
},
"link": "/radio/program/commonwealth-club",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jb21tb253ZWFsdGhjbHViLm9yZy9hdWRpby9wb2RjYXN0L3dlZWtseS54bWw",
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"id": "forum",
"title": "Forum",
"tagline": "The conversation starts here",
"info": "KQED’s live call-in program discussing local, state, national and international issues, as well as in-depth interviews.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 9am-11am, 10pm-11pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Forum-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Forum with Mina Kim and Alexis Madrigal",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 9
},
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM5NTU3MzgxNjMz",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "http://freakonomics.com/",
"airtime": "SUN 1am-2am, SAT 3pm-4pm",
"meta": {
"site": "radio",
"source": "WNYC"
},
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"subscribe": {
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/freakonomics-radio/id354668519",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/podcasts/WNYC-Podcasts/Freakonomics-Radio-p272293/",
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},
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"id": "fresh-air",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=214089682&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"info": "A live production of NPR and WBUR Boston, in collaboration with stations across the country, Here & Now reflects the fluid world of news as it's happening in the middle of the day, with timely, in-depth news, interviews and conversation. Hosted by Robin Young, Jeremy Hobson and Tonya Mosley.",
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},
"hidden-brain": {
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"info": "Shankar Vedantam uses science and storytelling to reveal the unconscious patterns that drive human behavior, shape our choices and direct our relationships.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7pm-8pm",
"meta": {
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"source": "NPR"
},
"link": "/radio/program/hidden-brain",
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},
"how-i-built-this": {
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"title": "How I Built This with Guy Raz",
"info": "Guy Raz dives into the stories behind some of the world's best known companies. How I Built This weaves a narrative journey about innovators, entrepreneurs and idealists—and the movements they built.",
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"airtime": "SUN 7:30pm-8pm",
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},
"link": "/radio/program/how-i-built-this",
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"npr": "https://rpb3r.app.goo.gl/3zxy",
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-built-this-with-guy-raz/id1150510297?mt=2",
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"hyphenacion": {
"id": "hyphenacion",
"title": "Hyphenación",
"tagline": "Where conversation and cultura meet",
"info": "What kind of no sabo word is Hyphenación? For us, it’s about living within a hyphenation. Like being a third-gen Mexican-American from the Texas border now living that Bay Area Chicano life. Like Xorje! Each week we bring together a couple of hyphenated Latinos to talk all about personal life choices: family, careers, relationships, belonging … everything is on the table. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/Hyphenacion_FinalAssets_PodcastTile.png",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"order": 15
},
"link": "/podcasts/hyphenacion",
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"spotify": "https://open.spotify.com/show/2p3Fifq96nw9BPcmFdIq0o?si=39209f7b25774f38",
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},
"jerrybrown": {
"id": "jerrybrown",
"title": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown",
"tagline": "Lessons from a lifetime in politics",
"info": "The Political Mind of Jerry Brown brings listeners the wisdom of the former Governor, Mayor, and presidential candidate. Scott Shafer interviewed Brown for more than 40 hours, covering the former governor's life and half-century in the political game – and Brown has some lessons he'd like to share. ",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/The-Political-Mind-of-Jerry-Brown-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
"meta": {
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"order": 18
},
"link": "/podcasts/jerrybrown",
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}
},
"latino-usa": {
"id": "latino-usa",
"title": "Latino USA",
"airtime": "MON 1am-2am, SUN 6pm-7pm",
"info": "Latino USA, the radio journal of news and culture, is the only national, English-language radio program produced from a Latino perspective.",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/latinoUsa.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "http://latinousa.org/",
"meta": {
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},
"link": "/radio/program/latino-usa",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?s=143441&mt=2&id=79681317&at=11l79Y&ct=nprdirectory",
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"rss": "https://feeds.npr.org/510016/podcast.xml"
}
},
"marketplace": {
"id": "marketplace",
"title": "Marketplace",
"info": "Our flagship program, helmed by Kai Ryssdal, examines what the day in money delivered, through stories, conversations, newsworthy numbers and more. Updated Monday through Friday at about 3:30 p.m. PT.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 4pm-4:30pm, MON-WED 6:30pm-7pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Marketplace-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.marketplace.org/",
"meta": {
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"source": "American Public Media"
},
"link": "/radio/program/marketplace",
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},
"masters-of-scale": {
"id": "masters-of-scale",
"title": "Masters of Scale",
"info": "Masters of Scale is an original podcast in which LinkedIn co-founder and Greylock Partner Reid Hoffman sets out to describe and prove theories that explain how great entrepreneurs take their companies from zero to a gazillion in ingenious fashion.",
"airtime": "Every other Wednesday June 12 through October 16 at 8pm (repeats Thursdays at 2am)",
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"officialWebsiteLink": "https://mastersofscale.com/",
"meta": {
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"source": "WaitWhat"
},
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"rss": "https://rss.art19.com/masters-of-scale"
}
},
"mindshift": {
"id": "mindshift",
"title": "MindShift",
"tagline": "A podcast about the future of learning and how we raise our kids",
"info": "The MindShift podcast explores the innovations in education that are shaping how kids learn. Hosts Ki Sung and Katrina Schwartz introduce listeners to educators, researchers, parents and students who are developing effective ways to improve how kids learn. We cover topics like how fed-up administrators are developing surprising tactics to deal with classroom disruptions; how listening to podcasts are helping kids develop reading skills; the consequences of overparenting; and why interdisciplinary learning can engage students on all ends of the traditional achievement spectrum. This podcast is part of the MindShift education site, a division of KQED News. KQED is an NPR/PBS member station based in San Francisco. You can also visit the MindShift website for episodes and supplemental blog posts or tweet us \u003ca href=\"https://twitter.com/MindShiftKQED\">@MindShiftKQED\u003c/a> or visit us at \u003ca href=\"/mindshift\">MindShift.KQED.org\u003c/a>",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Mindshift-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED MindShift: How We Will Learn",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/mindshift/",
"meta": {
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 12
},
"link": "/podcasts/mindshift",
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"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vS1FJTkM1NzY0NjAwNDI5",
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}
},
"morning-edition": {
"id": "morning-edition",
"title": "Morning Edition",
"info": "\u003cem>Morning Edition\u003c/em> takes listeners around the country and the world with multi-faceted stories and commentaries every weekday. Hosts Steve Inskeep, David Greene and Rachel Martin bring you the latest breaking news and features to prepare you for the day.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3am-9am",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/Morning-Edition-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.npr.org/programs/morning-edition/",
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"link": "/radio/program/morning-edition"
},
"onourwatch": {
"id": "onourwatch",
"title": "On Our Watch",
"tagline": "Deeply-reported investigative journalism",
"info": "For decades, the process for how police police themselves has been inconsistent – if not opaque. In some states, like California, these proceedings were completely hidden. After a new police transparency law unsealed scores of internal affairs files, our reporters set out to examine these cases and the shadow world of police discipline. On Our Watch brings listeners into the rooms where officers are questioned and witnesses are interrogated to find out who this system is really protecting. Is it the officers, or the public they've sworn to serve?",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/On-Our-Watch-Podcast-Tile-703x703-1.jpg",
"imageAlt": "On Our Watch from NPR and KQED",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"meta": {
"site": "news",
"source": "kqed",
"order": 11
},
"link": "/podcasts/onourwatch",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/id1567098962",
"google": "https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5ucHIub3JnLzUxMDM2MC9wb2RjYXN0LnhtbD9zYz1nb29nbGVwb2RjYXN0cw",
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}
},
"on-the-media": {
"id": "on-the-media",
"title": "On The Media",
"info": "Our weekly podcast explores how the media 'sausage' is made, casts an incisive eye on fluctuations in the marketplace of ideas, and examines threats to the freedom of information and expression in America and abroad. For one hour a week, the show tries to lift the veil from the process of \"making media,\" especially news media, because it's through that lens that we see the world and the world sees us",
"airtime": "SUN 2pm-3pm, MON 12am-1am",
"imageSrc": "https://ww2.kqed.org/radio/wp-content/uploads/sites/50/2018/04/onTheMedia.png",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.wnycstudios.org/shows/otm",
"meta": {
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"source": "wnyc"
},
"link": "/radio/program/on-the-media",
"subscribe": {
"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/on-the-media/id73330715?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/On-the-Media-p69/",
"rss": "http://feeds.wnyc.org/onthemedia"
}
},
"pbs-newshour": {
"id": "pbs-newshour",
"title": "PBS NewsHour",
"info": "Analysis, background reports and updates from the PBS NewsHour putting today's news in context.",
"airtime": "MON-FRI 3pm-4pm",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/PBS-News-Hour-Podcast-Tile-360x360-1.jpg",
"officialWebsiteLink": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/",
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"source": "pbs"
},
"link": "/radio/program/pbs-newshour",
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"apple": "https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/pbs-newshour-full-show/id394432287?mt=2",
"tuneIn": "https://tunein.com/radio/PBS-NewsHour---Full-Show-p425698/",
"rss": "https://www.pbs.org/newshour/feeds/rss/podcasts/show"
}
},
"perspectives": {
"id": "perspectives",
"title": "Perspectives",
"tagline": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991",
"info": "KQED's series of daily listener commentaries since 1991.",
"imageSrc": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/Perspectives_Tile_Final.jpg",
"imageAlt": "KQED Perspectives",
"officialWebsiteLink": "/perspectives/",
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"source": "kqed",
"order": 14
},
"link": "/perspectives",
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