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"content": "\n\u003cp>For almost a hundred years, huge swaths of San Mateo and Santa Clara counties were used to grow flowers. Hundreds of acres of chrysanthemums, asters and irises dotted the landscape, part of a two million dollar flower industry. And many of the people growing these flowers were immigrants from Italy, Japan and China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because of racist laws around land ownership at the time, most of the Chinese growers had to lease land from white people. Leland and Jane Stanford were willing landlords. The land where Stanford Shopping Center, the school’s research park and graduate student housing are today all used to be flower farms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Read Gabriela Glueck’s full story \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090069/when-chinese-flower-growers-helped-the-bay-area-bloom\">“When Chinese Flower Growers Helped the Bay Area Bloom”\u003c/a> on The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4358921968&light=true\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We start today’s story at Stanford University at the office of archeologist Laura Jones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The first big surprise is the sculpture just outside. A half human, half animal figure that she’s storing for an indigenous tribe.Then there’s the colorfully embroidered tapestry of campus landmarks inside… and the 3 dimensional map on her wall…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Things that don’t quite make the cut for a museum end up here, in Laura Jones’ office. So when a retiring colleague offered her some old Stanford maps from the 1950s, Laura says it was an easy yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>She shows me this map that’s got all these colored pencil areas on it, where the Stanford shopping center is today, where the Stanford Research Park is today, where our graduate student housing is today, and they’re coded for what flower is being grown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Fields and field of flowers blooming, as far as the eye could see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>In black pencil, dark black pencil, are the names of the farmers, and they’re all Chinese and Japanese… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For a solid stretch of the 20th century, the Bay Area was home to a burgeoning flower industry, shaped in part by Japanese, Italian, and Chinese farmers.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1948 about 200 acres of chrysanthemums were grown in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties. Imagine, that’s about 150 football fields!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these flowers were grown on Stanford lands between the 1890s and 1960s, in plots leased to Asian American farmers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> If you could imagine, as you go down towards El Camino Real at the shopping center, or where our graduate students live today, you would have seen just fields of flowers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED reporter Gabriela Glueck met up with Laura to learn more about this history and the contributions of Chinese American growers in particular. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story first aired on The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Beginning in the late 1800s, farmers in Santa Clara Valley began planting fruit orchards, and the area’s rich, fertile soil helped the region develop into an agricultural powerhouse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One that came to be known as the “Garden of the World.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Much of this agricultural land was owned by white farmers. But they regularly hired Chinese immigrant laborers and also leased them land. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>Chinese immigrants arrive in California in the 1840s and 1850s during the Gold Rush, not everybody found gold. So Chinese immigrants fan out across California looking for other things to do…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Discriminatory laws made land ownership nearly impossible for many immigrants. So leasing was the next best option.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As Laura tells it, Leland and Jane Stanford – the founders of Stanford University – were eager landlords.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> Leland Stanford, for example, employed hundreds of Chinese on his ranches and farms and here in Palo Alto. Mrs. Stanford had a number of leases with Chinese farmers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim Mok was one such Chinese worker employed by the Stanfords. He worked as a foreman on their farm and at the University.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He helped lead the team of Chinese gardeners who planted the palm trees on Stanford’s famous palm drive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>He was a really gifted supervisor… he was paid well for it, too. And he saved his money, and then he leased some land from Jane, and he did his vegetable farm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Mok was also a leader in his own community, helping other Chinese immigrants find work and land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin: \u003c/strong>Because he’s a foreman, he employed some of the fellow clansmen, relatives and whatnot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That’s George Chin. He heads San Francisco’s Chinatown History & Culture Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>George Chin: \u003c/strong>A lot of the Stanford Chinese workers came from particular place. This place is called Huangliang Du in Cantonese, this is southern part of Guangdong in China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>George says that at the start, Chinese land leasees were focused on growing vegetables. First for their own consumption, then for selling locally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> And then they discover that they can sell flowers in San Francisco and make much more profit compared to vegetables.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So Mok switched gears, opting for asters and chrysanthemums in lieu of vegetables… Other Chinese immigrants followed suit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was a gradual transition, taking shape in the early 1900s, as the demand for cut flowers started to accelerate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the same time, Japanese and Italian immigrant farmers were making similar shifts, building their own greenhouses, and networks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That’s when George’s dad, Arthur Y. Chin, came into the picture. He arrived in the United States in 1923, hailing from Guangdong Province in China, just like Mok did. And pretty quickly he got into the flower business, getting a lease in Palo Alto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>George spent much of his childhood on the farm. And he’s still got pictures of the place…including one black and white still of him and his two siblings in front of their house…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> And the background you see part of the greenhouse, which is the nurse part of the nursery, and that’s where my father grew the flowers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside would be various row of chrysanthemums various color.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>George says the business was truly a family operation, and in many ways, his mom was the backbone of it. She worked the fields, helped prepare cut flowers, cooked meals for the crew, and raised three children.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a kid, George pitched in too, helping his parents with the hard work of flower growing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>When I’m a teenager, there’s a little bit of resentment because I cannot go to after school sports… I cannot join in the sports club, after school activity, because I have to be home working.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He’d help build and repair green houses. And pick buds on growing flower bushes to make sure only the biggest mum would bloom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>George says he remembers his dad packing up their family truck with fresh cut flowers to sell at the wholesaler. He’d also collect some other farmer’s flowers to take with him. It was just one of many ways this group of Chinese American growers — looked out for each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>In order to protect each other and fought against the competitions the Chinese growers form a Bay Area Chrysanthemums Growers Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re listening to Bay Curious – a podcast produced by listener supported KQED. You can join the hundreds of thousands of members in the Bay Area today but donate at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. We’ve got to take a quick break – when we return The Chinese Growers scale up to meet a tide of demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Jim Mok had helped build a community of Chinese flower growers on and around the Stanford campus. What started out as a small solo operation, grew into a large coordinated effort. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By the late 1970s, one report shows that the association had grown to nearly 140 Chinese growers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The blueprint Mok and other enterprising immigrants laid out had really taken shape.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>These growers had essentially self organized into cooperatives so that they could, in fact, afford mass shipping…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Stanford archaeologist Laura Jones again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> This is you providing thousands of flowers that are packed into a semi trailer truck, refrigerated truck, with other growers flowers, right? And going off to wholesalers somewhere but they’re banding together to access mass markets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And those markets – both local and around the country – wanted chrysanthemums.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> In large part, for corsages, which is a tradition we don’t really follow as much anymore; it’s really rare but it was huge, huge between 1920 and about 1960. Men wore corsages as well as women. And it was just a major market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you dig up pictures of old Cal versus Stanford football games and zoom in on the spectators, you’ll see them. White chrysanthemum corsages with a pipe cleaner shaped into a red S. And a yellow version with a blue C for Cal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> And we found these ads in the local newspapers for chrysanthemum corsages. And they had the, they were about the big game. And so there’ll be a drawing of a, you know, a pretty girl with a giant corsage with a big S on it for the big game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Cut flowers for your dining room table and for all other occasions were also popular. At every step, as new business opportunities arose, the Chinese growers worked together to take advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>These small growers on these small farms are banding together. They buy warehouses near trail train lines, right? They buy warehouses at the airport together. Because, I mean, who’s what? Person with six acres is going to buy a hangar at the airport.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That cooperation helped the industry scale. And it also gave immigrants a chance at upward mobility.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>One of the things that’s interesting about flower growing and also true about vegetable farms is you can make a living with a fairly small acreage. You could be running, you know, a multi family operation on six leased acres. That’s real opportunity, right for immigrants to come in and start something for their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George and his family, flower farming was supposed to be a stepping stone, a path to the middle class. And it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> Farming is not easy. I’m sure my father doesn’t really want to see his son actually just taking over the business so to speak.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After serving in the U.S. Air Force, George became an engineer, and when his parents retired from flower growing they just stopped leasing the plot. Today, it’s a condo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the 1980s, it became economical to ship cut flowers from South America. And Bay Area real estate was also starting to get Silicon-Valley pricey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> So it’s like the perfect storm of wiping out these small flower farms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George, watching the history fade away was sad… but he says the best we can do now is make sure the story’s not forgotten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s part of the reason he’s been so excited about the work Laura is doing. Since she first came across that map, she’s been researching this history, and plans to turn her findings into a digital exhibit called the Forgotten Flowers project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last year, Laura and George also helped put on a corsage making event on Stanford’s campus… as part of the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>We had a lot of the flower growers who came. It was a joyful event, right to recover that tradition at Stanford.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The corsage making kits came from a florist in San Francisco’s Chinatown. White chrysanthemums, pipe cleaners to make the Stanford S, and instruction sheets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 200 people showed up to take part.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>It’s kind of exciting because, you are seeing people really intense of learning from the past. I think we’re there’s certain joy to be able to pass down this tradition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Corsage making has always been an intricate art form – arranging fresh cut flowers and carefully trimmed leaves into a balanced and wearable composition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And at the event, it also offered crafters a way to connect with a not so distant past. When Stanford’s campus and the area surrounding it were blooming with flower farms and chrysanthemum fields were king.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED reporter Gabriella Glueck. Thanks to the team at The California Report Magazine for their work producing that story. The team includes Sasha Khokha, Victoria Mauleon, Suzie Racho and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For almost a hundred years, huge swaths of San Mateo and Santa Clara counties were used to grow flowers. Hundreds of acres of chrysanthemums, asters and irises dotted the landscape, part of a two million dollar flower industry. And many of the people growing these flowers were immigrants from Italy, Japan and China.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We start today’s story at Stanford University at the office of archeologist Laura Jones.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We start today’s story at Stanford University at the office of archeologist Laura Jones.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The first big surprise is the sculpture just outside. A half human, half animal figure that she’s storing for an indigenous tribe.Then there’s the colorfully embroidered tapestry of campus landmarks inside… and the 3 dimensional map on her wall…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The first big surprise is the sculpture just outside. A half human, half animal figure that she’s storing for an indigenous tribe.Then there’s the colorfully embroidered tapestry of campus landmarks inside… and the 3 dimensional map on her wall…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Things that don’t quite make the cut for a museum end up here, in Laura Jones’ office. So when a retiring colleague offered her some old Stanford maps from the 1950s, Laura says it was an easy yes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Things that don’t quite make the cut for a museum end up here, in Laura Jones’ office. So when a retiring colleague offered her some old Stanford maps from the 1950s, Laura says it was an easy yes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>She shows me this map that’s got all these colored pencil areas on it, where the Stanford shopping center is today, where the Stanford Research Park is today, where our graduate student housing is today, and they’re coded for what flower is being grown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>She shows me this map that’s got all these colored pencil areas on it, where the Stanford shopping center is today, where the Stanford Research Park is today, where our graduate student housing is today, and they’re coded for what flower is being grown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Fields and field of flowers blooming, as far as the eye could see.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Fields and field of flowers blooming, as far as the eye could see.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>In black pencil, dark black pencil, are the names of the farmers, and they’re all Chinese and Japanese… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>In black pencil, dark black pencil, are the names of the farmers, and they’re all Chinese and Japanese… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For a solid stretch of the 20th century, the Bay Area was home to a burgeoning flower industry, shaped in part by Japanese, Italian, and Chinese farmers.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1948 about 200 acres of chrysanthemums were grown in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties. Imagine, that’s about 150 football fields!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For a solid stretch of the 20th century, the Bay Area was home to a burgeoning flower industry, shaped in part by Japanese, Italian, and Chinese farmers.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1948 about 200 acres of chrysanthemums were grown in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties. Imagine, that’s about 150 football fields!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of these flowers were grown on Stanford lands between the 1890s and 1960s, in plots leased to Asian American farmers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> If you could imagine, as you go down towards El Camino Real at the shopping center, or where our graduate students live today, you would have seen just fields of flowers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> If you could imagine, as you go down towards El Camino Real at the shopping center, or where our graduate students live today, you would have seen just fields of flowers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED reporter Gabriela Glueck met up with Laura to learn more about this history and the contributions of Chinese American growers in particular. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED reporter Gabriela Glueck met up with Laura to learn more about this history and the contributions of Chinese American growers in particular. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This story first aired on The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Beginning in the late 1800s, farmers in Santa Clara Valley began planting fruit orchards, and the area’s rich, fertile soil helped the region develop into an agricultural powerhouse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Beginning in the late 1800s, farmers in Santa Clara Valley began planting fruit orchards, and the area’s rich, fertile soil helped the region develop into an agricultural powerhouse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One that came to be known as the “Garden of the World.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Much of this agricultural land was owned by white farmers. But they regularly hired Chinese immigrant laborers and also leased them land. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>Chinese immigrants arrive in California in the 1840s and 1850s during the Gold Rush, not everybody found gold. So Chinese immigrants fan out across California looking for other things to do…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Discriminatory laws made land ownership nearly impossible for many immigrants. So leasing was the next best option.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As Laura tells it, Leland and Jane Stanford – the founders of Stanford University – were eager landlords.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As Laura tells it, Leland and Jane Stanford – the founders of Stanford University – were eager landlords.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> Leland Stanford, for example, employed hundreds of Chinese on his ranches and farms and here in Palo Alto. Mrs. Stanford had a number of leases with Chinese farmers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> Leland Stanford, for example, employed hundreds of Chinese on his ranches and farms and here in Palo Alto. Mrs. Stanford had a number of leases with Chinese farmers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim Mok was one such Chinese worker employed by the Stanfords. He worked as a foreman on their farm and at the University.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim Mok was one such Chinese worker employed by the Stanfords. He worked as a foreman on their farm and at the University.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He helped lead the team of Chinese gardeners who planted the palm trees on Stanford’s famous palm drive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>He was a really gifted supervisor… he was paid well for it, too. And he saved his money, and then he leased some land from Jane, and he did his vegetable farm.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>He was a really gifted supervisor… he was paid well for it, too. And he saved his money, and then he leased some land from Jane, and he did his vegetable farm.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Mok was also a leader in his own community, helping other Chinese immigrants find work and land.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin: \u003c/strong>Because he’s a foreman, he employed some of the fellow clansmen, relatives and whatnot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That’s George Chin. He heads San Francisco’s Chinatown History & Culture Association.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>George Chin: \u003c/strong>A lot of the Stanford Chinese workers came from particular place. This place is called Huangliang Du in Cantonese, this is southern part of Guangdong in China.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>George says that at the start, Chinese land leasees were focused on growing vegetables. First for their own consumption, then for selling locally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> And then they discover that they can sell flowers in San Francisco and make much more profit compared to vegetables.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So Mok switched gears, opting for asters and chrysanthemums in lieu of vegetables… Other Chinese immigrants followed suit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So Mok switched gears, opting for asters and chrysanthemums in lieu of vegetables… Other Chinese immigrants followed suit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It was a gradual transition, taking shape in the early 1900s, as the demand for cut flowers started to accelerate.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the same time, Japanese and Italian immigrant farmers were making similar shifts, building their own greenhouses, and networks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That’s when George’s dad, Arthur Y. Chin, came into the picture. He arrived in the United States in 1923, hailing from Guangdong Province in China, just like Mok did. And pretty quickly he got into the flower business, getting a lease in Palo Alto.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>George spent much of his childhood on the farm. And he’s still got pictures of the place…including one black and white still of him and his two siblings in front of their house…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> And the background you see part of the greenhouse, which is the nurse part of the nursery, and that’s where my father grew the flowers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Inside would be various row of chrysanthemums various color.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>George says the business was truly a family operation, and in many ways, his mom was the backbone of it. She worked the fields, helped prepare cut flowers, cooked meals for the crew, and raised three children.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As a kid, George pitched in too, helping his parents with the hard work of flower growing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>When I’m a teenager, there’s a little bit of resentment because I cannot go to after school sports… I cannot join in the sports club, after school activity, because I have to be home working.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>When I’m a teenager, there’s a little bit of resentment because I cannot go to after school sports… I cannot join in the sports club, after school activity, because I have to be home working.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He’d help build and repair green houses. And pick buds on growing flower bushes to make sure only the biggest mum would bloom.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He’d help build and repair green houses. And pick buds on growing flower bushes to make sure only the biggest mum would bloom.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>George says he remembers his dad packing up their family truck with fresh cut flowers to sell at the wholesaler. He’d also collect some other farmer’s flowers to take with him. It was just one of many ways this group of Chinese American growers — looked out for each other.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>George says he remembers his dad packing up their family truck with fresh cut flowers to sell at the wholesaler. He’d also collect some other farmer’s flowers to take with him. It was just one of many ways this group of Chinese American growers — looked out for each other.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>In order to protect each other and fought against the competitions the Chinese growers form a Bay Area Chrysanthemums Growers Association.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>In order to protect each other and fought against the competitions the Chinese growers form a Bay Area Chrysanthemums Growers Association.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re listening to Bay Curious – a podcast produced by listener supported KQED. You can join the hundreds of thousands of members in the Bay Area today but donate at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. We’ve got to take a quick break – when we return The Chinese Growers scale up to meet a tide of demand.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re listening to Bay Curious – a podcast produced by listener supported KQED. You can join the hundreds of thousands of members in the Bay Area today but donate at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. We’ve got to take a quick break – when we return The Chinese Growers scale up to meet a tide of demand.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Jim Mok had helped build a community of Chinese flower growers on and around the Stanford campus. What started out as a small solo operation, grew into a large coordinated effort. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Jim Mok had helped build a community of Chinese flower growers on and around the Stanford campus. What started out as a small solo operation, grew into a large coordinated effort. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By the late 1970s, one report shows that the association had grown to nearly 140 Chinese growers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By the late 1970s, one report shows that the association had grown to nearly 140 Chinese growers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The blueprint Mok and other enterprising immigrants laid out had really taken shape.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>These growers had essentially self organized into cooperatives so that they could, in fact, afford mass shipping…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Stanford archaeologist Laura Jones again.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> This is you providing thousands of flowers that are packed into a semi trailer truck, refrigerated truck, with other growers flowers, right? And going off to wholesalers somewhere but they’re banding together to access mass markets. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> This is you providing thousands of flowers that are packed into a semi trailer truck, refrigerated truck, with other growers flowers, right? And going off to wholesalers somewhere but they’re banding together to access mass markets. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And those markets – both local and around the country – wanted chrysanthemums.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And those markets – both local and around the country – wanted chrysanthemums.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> In large part, for corsages, which is a tradition we don’t really follow as much anymore; it’s really rare but it was huge, huge between 1920 and about 1960. Men wore corsages as well as women. And it was just a major market.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> In large part, for corsages, which is a tradition we don’t really follow as much anymore; it’s really rare but it was huge, huge between 1920 and about 1960. Men wore corsages as well as women. And it was just a major market.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you dig up pictures of old Cal versus Stanford football games and zoom in on the spectators, you’ll see them. White chrysanthemum corsages with a pipe cleaner shaped into a red S. And a yellow version with a blue C for Cal.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you dig up pictures of old Cal versus Stanford football games and zoom in on the spectators, you’ll see them. White chrysanthemum corsages with a pipe cleaner shaped into a red S. And a yellow version with a blue C for Cal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> And we found these ads in the local newspapers for chrysanthemum corsages. And they had the, they were about the big game. And so there’ll be a drawing of a, you know, a pretty girl with a giant corsage with a big S on it for the big game.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> And we found these ads in the local newspapers for chrysanthemum corsages. And they had the, they were about the big game. And so there’ll be a drawing of a, you know, a pretty girl with a giant corsage with a big S on it for the big game.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Cut flowers for your dining room table and for all other occasions were also popular. At every step, as new business opportunities arose, the Chinese growers worked together to take advantage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Cut flowers for your dining room table and for all other occasions were also popular. At every step, as new business opportunities arose, the Chinese growers worked together to take advantage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>These small growers on these small farms are banding together. They buy warehouses near trail train lines, right? They buy warehouses at the airport together. Because, I mean, who’s what? Person with six acres is going to buy a hangar at the airport.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>These small growers on these small farms are banding together. They buy warehouses near trail train lines, right? They buy warehouses at the airport together. Because, I mean, who’s what? Person with six acres is going to buy a hangar at the airport.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That cooperation helped the industry scale. And it also gave immigrants a chance at upward mobility.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That cooperation helped the industry scale. And it also gave immigrants a chance at upward mobility.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>One of the things that’s interesting about flower growing and also true about vegetable farms is you can make a living with a fairly small acreage. You could be running, you know, a multi family operation on six leased acres. That’s real opportunity, right for immigrants to come in and start something for their families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>One of the things that’s interesting about flower growing and also true about vegetable farms is you can make a living with a fairly small acreage. You could be running, you know, a multi family operation on six leased acres. That’s real opportunity, right for immigrants to come in and start something for their families.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George and his family, flower farming was supposed to be a stepping stone, a path to the middle class. And it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> Farming is not easy. I’m sure my father doesn’t really want to see his son actually just taking over the business so to speak.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> Farming is not easy. I’m sure my father doesn’t really want to see his son actually just taking over the business so to speak.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After serving in the U.S. Air Force, George became an engineer, and when his parents retired from flower growing they just stopped leasing the plot. Today, it’s a condo.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After serving in the U.S. Air Force, George became an engineer, and when his parents retired from flower growing they just stopped leasing the plot. Today, it’s a condo.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the 1980s, it became economical to ship cut flowers from South America. And Bay Area real estate was also starting to get Silicon-Valley pricey.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> So it’s like the perfect storm of wiping out these small flower farms.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> So it’s like the perfect storm of wiping out these small flower farms.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George, watching the history fade away was sad… but he says the best we can do now is make sure the story’s not forgotten.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George, watching the history fade away was sad… but he says the best we can do now is make sure the story’s not forgotten.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s part of the reason he’s been so excited about the work Laura is doing. Since she first came across that map, she’s been researching this history, and plans to turn her findings into a digital exhibit called the Forgotten Flowers project.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s part of the reason he’s been so excited about the work Laura is doing. Since she first came across that map, she’s been researching this history, and plans to turn her findings into a digital exhibit called the Forgotten Flowers project.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Last year, Laura and George also helped put on a corsage making event on Stanford’s campus… as part of the initiative.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>We had a lot of the flower growers who came. It was a joyful event, right to recover that tradition at Stanford.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>We had a lot of the flower growers who came. It was a joyful event, right to recover that tradition at Stanford.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The corsage making kits came from a florist in San Francisco’s Chinatown. White chrysanthemums, pipe cleaners to make the Stanford S, and instruction sheets. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>About 200 people showed up to take part.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And at the event, it also offered crafters a way to connect with a not so distant past. When Stanford’s campus and the area surrounding it were blooming with flower farms and chrysanthemum fields were king.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED reporter Gabriella Glueck. Thanks to the team at The California Report Magazine for their work producing that story. The team includes Sasha Khokha, Victoria Mauleon, Suzie Racho and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED reporter Gabriella Glueck. Thanks to the team at The California Report Magazine for their work producing that story. The team includes Sasha Khokha, Victoria Mauleon, Suzie Racho and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n"
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"title": "Silicon Valley Used to Be Carpeted With Flower Farms | KQED",
"description": "For almost a hundred years, huge swaths of San Mateo and Santa Clara counties were used to grow flowers. Hundreds of acres of chrysanthemums, asters and irises dotted the landscape, part of a two million dollar flower industry. And many of the people growing these flowers were immigrants from Italy, Japan and China. Because of",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>For almost a hundred years, huge swaths of San Mateo and Santa Clara counties were used to grow flowers. Hundreds of acres of chrysanthemums, asters and irises dotted the landscape, part of a two million dollar flower industry. And many of the people growing these flowers were immigrants from Italy, Japan and China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Because of racist laws around land ownership at the time, most of the Chinese growers had to lease land from white people. Leland and Jane Stanford were willing landlords. The land where Stanford Shopping Center, the school’s research park and graduate student housing are today all used to be flower farms. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Read Gabriela Glueck’s full story \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090069/when-chinese-flower-growers-helped-the-bay-area-bloom\">“When Chinese Flower Growers Helped the Bay Area Bloom”\u003c/a> on The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC4358921968&light=true\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious. We start today’s story at Stanford University at the office of archeologist Laura Jones.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The first big surprise is the sculpture just outside. A half human, half animal figure that she’s storing for an indigenous tribe.Then there’s the colorfully embroidered tapestry of campus landmarks inside… and the 3 dimensional map on her wall…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Things that don’t quite make the cut for a museum end up here, in Laura Jones’ office. So when a retiring colleague offered her some old Stanford maps from the 1950s, Laura says it was an easy yes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>She shows me this map that’s got all these colored pencil areas on it, where the Stanford shopping center is today, where the Stanford Research Park is today, where our graduate student housing is today, and they’re coded for what flower is being grown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Fields and field of flowers blooming, as far as the eye could see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>In black pencil, dark black pencil, are the names of the farmers, and they’re all Chinese and Japanese… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>For a solid stretch of the 20th century, the Bay Area was home to a burgeoning flower industry, shaped in part by Japanese, Italian, and Chinese farmers.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1948 about 200 acres of chrysanthemums were grown in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties. Imagine, that’s about 150 football fields!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of these flowers were grown on Stanford lands between the 1890s and 1960s, in plots leased to Asian American farmers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> If you could imagine, as you go down towards El Camino Real at the shopping center, or where our graduate students live today, you would have seen just fields of flowers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED reporter Gabriela Glueck met up with Laura to learn more about this history and the contributions of Chinese American growers in particular. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This story first aired on The California Report Magazine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Beginning in the late 1800s, farmers in Santa Clara Valley began planting fruit orchards, and the area’s rich, fertile soil helped the region develop into an agricultural powerhouse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One that came to be known as the “Garden of the World.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Much of this agricultural land was owned by white farmers. But they regularly hired Chinese immigrant laborers and also leased them land. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>Chinese immigrants arrive in California in the 1840s and 1850s during the Gold Rush, not everybody found gold. So Chinese immigrants fan out across California looking for other things to do…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Discriminatory laws made land ownership nearly impossible for many immigrants. So leasing was the next best option.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>As Laura tells it, Leland and Jane Stanford – the founders of Stanford University – were eager landlords.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> Leland Stanford, for example, employed hundreds of Chinese on his ranches and farms and here in Palo Alto. Mrs. Stanford had a number of leases with Chinese farmers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Jim Mok was one such Chinese worker employed by the Stanfords. He worked as a foreman on their farm and at the University.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He helped lead the team of Chinese gardeners who planted the palm trees on Stanford’s famous palm drive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>He was a really gifted supervisor… he was paid well for it, too. And he saved his money, and then he leased some land from Jane, and he did his vegetable farm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Mok was also a leader in his own community, helping other Chinese immigrants find work and land.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin: \u003c/strong>Because he’s a foreman, he employed some of the fellow clansmen, relatives and whatnot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That’s George Chin. He heads San Francisco’s Chinatown History & Culture Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003cstrong>George Chin: \u003c/strong>A lot of the Stanford Chinese workers came from particular place. This place is called Huangliang Du in Cantonese, this is southern part of Guangdong in China.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>George says that at the start, Chinese land leasees were focused on growing vegetables. First for their own consumption, then for selling locally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> And then they discover that they can sell flowers in San Francisco and make much more profit compared to vegetables.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>So Mok switched gears, opting for asters and chrysanthemums in lieu of vegetables… Other Chinese immigrants followed suit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It was a gradual transition, taking shape in the early 1900s, as the demand for cut flowers started to accelerate.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the same time, Japanese and Italian immigrant farmers were making similar shifts, building their own greenhouses, and networks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That’s when George’s dad, Arthur Y. Chin, came into the picture. He arrived in the United States in 1923, hailing from Guangdong Province in China, just like Mok did. And pretty quickly he got into the flower business, getting a lease in Palo Alto.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>George spent much of his childhood on the farm. And he’s still got pictures of the place…including one black and white still of him and his two siblings in front of their house…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> And the background you see part of the greenhouse, which is the nurse part of the nursery, and that’s where my father grew the flowers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Inside would be various row of chrysanthemums various color.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>George says the business was truly a family operation, and in many ways, his mom was the backbone of it. She worked the fields, helped prepare cut flowers, cooked meals for the crew, and raised three children.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a kid, George pitched in too, helping his parents with the hard work of flower growing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>When I’m a teenager, there’s a little bit of resentment because I cannot go to after school sports… I cannot join in the sports club, after school activity, because I have to be home working.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>He’d help build and repair green houses. And pick buds on growing flower bushes to make sure only the biggest mum would bloom.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>George says he remembers his dad packing up their family truck with fresh cut flowers to sell at the wholesaler. He’d also collect some other farmer’s flowers to take with him. It was just one of many ways this group of Chinese American growers — looked out for each other.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>In order to protect each other and fought against the competitions the Chinese growers form a Bay Area Chrysanthemums Growers Association.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>You’re listening to Bay Curious – a podcast produced by listener supported KQED. You can join the hundreds of thousands of members in the Bay Area today but donate at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. We’ve got to take a quick break – when we return The Chinese Growers scale up to meet a tide of demand.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And we’re back…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Jim Mok had helped build a community of Chinese flower growers on and around the Stanford campus. What started out as a small solo operation, grew into a large coordinated effort. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>By the late 1970s, one report shows that the association had grown to nearly 140 Chinese growers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The blueprint Mok and other enterprising immigrants laid out had really taken shape.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>These growers had essentially self organized into cooperatives so that they could, in fact, afford mass shipping…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Stanford archaeologist Laura Jones again.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> This is you providing thousands of flowers that are packed into a semi trailer truck, refrigerated truck, with other growers flowers, right? And going off to wholesalers somewhere but they’re banding together to access mass markets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>And those markets – both local and around the country – wanted chrysanthemums.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> In large part, for corsages, which is a tradition we don’t really follow as much anymore; it’s really rare but it was huge, huge between 1920 and about 1960. Men wore corsages as well as women. And it was just a major market.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>If you dig up pictures of old Cal versus Stanford football games and zoom in on the spectators, you’ll see them. White chrysanthemum corsages with a pipe cleaner shaped into a red S. And a yellow version with a blue C for Cal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> And we found these ads in the local newspapers for chrysanthemum corsages. And they had the, they were about the big game. And so there’ll be a drawing of a, you know, a pretty girl with a giant corsage with a big S on it for the big game.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music fades\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Cut flowers for your dining room table and for all other occasions were also popular. At every step, as new business opportunities arose, the Chinese growers worked together to take advantage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>These small growers on these small farms are banding together. They buy warehouses near trail train lines, right? They buy warehouses at the airport together. Because, I mean, who’s what? Person with six acres is going to buy a hangar at the airport.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>That cooperation helped the industry scale. And it also gave immigrants a chance at upward mobility.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>One of the things that’s interesting about flower growing and also true about vegetable farms is you can make a living with a fairly small acreage. You could be running, you know, a multi family operation on six leased acres. That’s real opportunity, right for immigrants to come in and start something for their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George and his family, flower farming was supposed to be a stepping stone, a path to the middle class. And it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong> Farming is not easy. I’m sure my father doesn’t really want to see his son actually just taking over the business so to speak.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>After serving in the U.S. Air Force, George became an engineer, and when his parents retired from flower growing they just stopped leasing the plot. Today, it’s a condo.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>In the 1980s, it became economical to ship cut flowers from South America. And Bay Area real estate was also starting to get Silicon-Valley pricey.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones:\u003c/strong> So it’s like the perfect storm of wiping out these small flower farms.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>For George, watching the history fade away was sad… but he says the best we can do now is make sure the story’s not forgotten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s part of the reason he’s been so excited about the work Laura is doing. Since she first came across that map, she’s been researching this history, and plans to turn her findings into a digital exhibit called the Forgotten Flowers project.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Last year, Laura and George also helped put on a corsage making event on Stanford’s campus… as part of the initiative.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Laura Jones: \u003c/strong>We had a lot of the flower growers who came. It was a joyful event, right to recover that tradition at Stanford.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>The corsage making kits came from a florist in San Francisco’s Chinatown. White chrysanthemums, pipe cleaners to make the Stanford S, and instruction sheets. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>About 200 people showed up to take part.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>George Chin:\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/strong>It’s kind of exciting because, you are seeing people really intense of learning from the past. I think we’re there’s certain joy to be able to pass down this tradition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Gabriela Glueck: \u003c/strong>Corsage making has always been an intricate art form – arranging fresh cut flowers and carefully trimmed leaves into a balanced and wearable composition.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And at the event, it also offered crafters a way to connect with a not so distant past. When Stanford’s campus and the area surrounding it were blooming with flower farms and chrysanthemum fields were king.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED reporter Gabriella Glueck. Thanks to the team at The California Report Magazine for their work producing that story. The team includes Sasha Khokha, Victoria Mauleon, Suzie Racho and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"title": "A Trip to the Remote Island Lighthouse in the Middle of San Francisco Bay",
"publishDate": 1788461039,
"format": "standard",
"headTitle": "A Trip to the Remote Island Lighthouse in the Middle of San Francisco Bay | KQED",
"labelTerm": {},
"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few years ago, a friend sent me the link for a job listing that seemed like an absolute dream. The opening was for a resident innkeeper at a bed and breakfast on an island in the middle of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a>. Even better, the B&B was housed in a 152-year-old working Victorian lighthouse! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fantasy of East Brother Light Station stayed with me. So I was delighted when a Bay Curious listener named Kathleen Taylor wrote in, looking to learn more about the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lighthouse keepers\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>It was small, less than an acre in size, but it was land the U.S. government already owned. Construction began in 1873.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The exterior of the light station features gingerbread trim, scrollwork and a generous second-floor porch. Not the standard-issue government building we’ve come to expect today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lightkeepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The innkeepers also had to wipe the glass panes of the lantern room with dry towels to keep moisture away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On foggy nights, the keepers’ jobs were doubly hard. They had to run the fog signal, too, which sits in another building on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beyond the core responsibilities, keepers kept up with a long list of chores: cooking, cleaning, maintenance and repairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066564\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066563\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066563\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Stenmark era\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the kids grew older, the government paid for a teacher to live on the island for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The end of lighthouse keepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station, most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The original used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene,” Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One big change came in 1934 when electricity arrived on the island via an underwater cable that connected it to shore. A lightkeeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night — greatly reducing their daily chore load. The steam-powered fog signal was replaced with a diaphonic horn that can still be operated today and is one of only eight like it in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think everybody looked at it and [thought] it was just too much,” said Butt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066567\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabilitating everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>They also try to make meals part of the historical experience, using ingredients the keepers would have received as part of their rations — like potatoes, rice and salted pork.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have recipes from the Lighthouse Keeper’s Manual from 1891 that had recipes for how to stretch your rations. Last night we served for the first course a corn chowder that is from that original Lighthouse Keeper’s handbook,” La Vigne said. “Although their recipe was incredibly bland, and I spruced it up a lot.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, historically inspired … but for a modern palate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guests sleep in rooms neatly decorated with antiques. Most rooms are named after the view you see from the room, so there’s West Brother (the neighboring island), Marin Room, San Francisco Room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A more modest room is out in the fog signal building — a popular choice for returning guests looking for a different experience, Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of the clientele are couples looking for a romantic getaway, but the house is also regularly rented out entirely by groups for birthdays, anniversaries or themed experiences.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had two murder mystery dinner parties in the past month,” La Vigne said. “Both parties dressed up. They were in character the whole time. It was 1920 the whole time they were here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the morning, before guests depart, they offer a demonstration of the fog signal — I can attest, it’s loud!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s something dreamy about lighthouses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their symbolism. A literal light in the darkness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In me, lighthouses stir something nostalgic. A time before GPS and radar — when navigation was done with charts and stars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, many lighthouses across the United States have become tourism attractions, like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and the St. Augustine Lighthouse in Florida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a lighthouse near San Francisco that offers an experience like none other. Not just a quick trip to the top, but an opportunity to live like a lighthouse keeper of yore!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kathleen got to wondering a lot of things about this lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So today we’re on a mission for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Step one! We have to get to the lighthouse. At a marina north of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, Kathleen and I make our way toward a small boat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There we meet Danielle La Vigne and Rae Colvin — the two keepers currently living on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Oh, you guys can hop on board. Our insurance company does ask that you wear those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships had to skirt around Point San Pablo — where our little boat just departed from. Rae Colvin explains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And they put a lighthouse out here because the topography under the water is pretty interesting. There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the open ocean off to the side that you can see averages out to about 15 feet deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The people who owned the land on the East Bay there didn’t want to sell to the government to let them build a lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After years of trying and failing to get the landowners to relent, the government changed course. Just offshore was \u003cem>East Brother Island\u003c/em> — a speck of land really, smaller than an acre — but it was enough. And better yet, it was land the U.S. government already owned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Workers blasted sandstone from the top of the island to create a level plot. A foundation went in, walls went up, and in less than a year the six-room Victorian light station was complete. The design is quite striking…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ornamental woodwork on it, and it’s three stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The buildings surround a low white dome covering something beneath the pavement. Danielle explains…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> How often do you get groups that rent the whole island? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There was an assistant keeper who got put down in the logbook as a drunken screw-up. He’s one of my favorites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station made it onto the National Register of Historic Places in 1971. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom went out to the island in 1978.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> We had to do electrical work, we had to do plumbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A history tour with Rae.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A few years ago, a friend sent me the link for a job listing that seemed like an absolute dream. The opening was for a resident innkeeper at a bed and breakfast on an island in the middle of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a>. Even better, the B&B was housed in a 152-year-old working Victorian lighthouse! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the fantasy of East Brother Light Station stayed with me. So I was delighted when a Bay Curious listener named Kathleen Taylor wrote in, looking to learn more about the place. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lighthouse keepers\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The exterior of the light station features gingerbread trim, scrollwork and a generous second-floor porch. Not the standard-issue government building we’ve come to expect today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The innkeepers also had to wipe the glass panes of the lantern room with dry towels to keep moisture away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On foggy nights, the keepers’ jobs were doubly hard. They had to run the fog signal, too, which sits in another building on the island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When the kids grew older, the government paid for a teacher to live on the island for a time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station, most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The original used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene,” Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>One big change came in 1934 when electricity arrived on the island via an underwater cable that connected it to shore. A lightkeeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night — greatly reducing their daily chore load. The steam-powered fog signal was replaced with a diaphonic horn that can still be operated today and is one of only eight like it in the world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think everybody looked at it and [thought] it was just too much,” said Butt. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabilitating everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Visiting East Brother Light Station today",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They also try to make meals part of the historical experience, using ingredients the keepers would have received as part of their rations — like potatoes, rice and salted pork.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We have recipes from the Lighthouse Keeper’s Manual from 1891 that had recipes for how to stretch your rations. Last night we served for the first course a corn chowder that is from that original Lighthouse Keeper’s handbook,” La Vigne said. “Although their recipe was incredibly bland, and I spruced it up a lot.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, historically inspired … but for a modern palate. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Guests sleep in rooms neatly decorated with antiques. Most rooms are named after the view you see from the room, so there’s West Brother (the neighboring island), Marin Room, San Francisco Room. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A more modest room is out in the fog signal building — a popular choice for returning guests looking for a different experience, Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most of the clientele are couples looking for a romantic getaway, but the house is also regularly rented out entirely by groups for birthdays, anniversaries or themed experiences.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We had two murder mystery dinner parties in the past month,” La Vigne said. “Both parties dressed up. They were in character the whole time. It was 1920 the whole time they were here.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the morning, before guests depart, they offer a demonstration of the fog signal — I can attest, it’s loud!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s something dreamy about lighthouses.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Their symbolism. A literal light in the darkness.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In me, lighthouses stir something nostalgic. A time before GPS and radar — when navigation was done with charts and stars.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, many lighthouses across the United States have become tourism attractions, like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and the St. Augustine Lighthouse in Florida.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But there’s a lighthouse near San Francisco that offers an experience like none other. Not just a quick trip to the top, but an opportunity to live like a lighthouse keeper of yore!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Kathleen got to wondering a lot of things about this lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So today we’re on a mission for answers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Step one! We have to get to the lighthouse. At a marina north of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, Kathleen and I make our way toward a small boat.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There we meet Danielle La Vigne and Rae Colvin — the two keepers currently living on the island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Oh, you guys can hop on board. Our insurance company does ask that you wear those.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ships had to skirt around Point San Pablo — where our little boat just departed from. Rae Colvin explains.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And they put a lighthouse out here because the topography under the water is pretty interesting. There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the open ocean off to the side that you can see averages out to about 15 feet deep. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The people who owned the land on the East Bay there didn’t want to sell to the government to let them build a lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After years of trying and failing to get the landowners to relent, the government changed course. Just offshore was \u003cem>East Brother Island\u003c/em> — a speck of land really, smaller than an acre — but it was enough. And better yet, it was land the U.S. government already owned. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Workers blasted sandstone from the top of the island to create a level plot. A foundation went in, walls went up, and in less than a year the six-room Victorian light station was complete. The design is quite striking…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ornamental woodwork on it, and it’s three stories.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The buildings surround a low white dome covering something beneath the pavement. Danielle explains…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> How often do you get groups that rent the whole island? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There was an assistant keeper who got put down in the logbook as a drunken screw-up. He’s one of my favorites.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station made it onto the National Register of Historic Places in 1971. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom went out to the island in 1978.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> We had to do electrical work, we had to do plumbing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A history tour with Rae.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n"
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"excerpt": "East Brother Light Station is a gold-rush era relic that was almost torn down. Spending the night there can feel like time traveling.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few years ago, a friend sent me the link for a job listing that seemed like an absolute dream. The opening was for a resident innkeeper at a bed and breakfast on an island in the middle of \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a>. Even better, the B&B was housed in a 152-year-old working Victorian lighthouse! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>From my cramped desk, I fantasized about a simpler life, spent outside in one of the most gorgeous settings I could imagine. And living rent-free while earning a salary! But reality came crashing down when I read the job required a boat operator’s license and high-quality culinary experience — both of which I lacked. Alas. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fantasy of East Brother Light Station stayed with me. So I was delighted when a Bay Curious listener named Kathleen Taylor wrote in, looking to learn more about the place. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066562\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-15-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“We were taking the ferry from Vallejo to a Giants game and passed by what looked like a small island with an East Coast-style lighthouse on it,” she recalled. It captured her imagination, too, and she got to wondering: “What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of what went on on that island?”\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So we headed to the island together to get some answers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station \u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lighthouse keepers\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"history-east-brother\">History of East Brother Light Station\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. To get there, boats had to skirt around Point San Pablo, the thumb sticking out from Richmond, California. This part of the bay can be especially tough for mariners.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The topography under the water is pretty interesting,” said Rae Colvin, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. “There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the [water] off to the side averages about 15 feet deep.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog, and it’s pretty precarious. So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and fog horn were needed. Initially, the Lighthouse Board hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but landowners fought back. They delayed things so profoundly that eventually an alternative site was chosen — East Brother Island. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066561\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-05-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Inn keeper Danielle La Vigne pilots a boat from Point San Pablo Harbor to East Brother Light Station in Richmond, California, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>It was small, less than an acre in size, but it was land the U.S. government already owned. Construction began in 1873.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The exterior of the light station features gingerbread trim, scrollwork and a generous second-floor porch. Not the standard-issue government building we’ve come to expect today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The six-room Victorian light station was intended to house three lightkeepers, and two of them could have families. Downstairs was a bedroom and parlor for the principal keeper. Upstairs was a smaller bedroom and parlor for the assistant keeper. There was also a third bedroom for the most junior keeper. Things were cozy, to say the least.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stacked on top of the living quarters was also the tower that housed the light. When the light station began operating on March 1, 1874, the light’s flame was powered by lard oil and featured a fourth-order \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens\">Fresnel lens\u003c/a>. The lens rotated on a clockwork mechanism. On a clear night, this beam, which appeared to flash every 30 seconds because of the design of the lens, could be seen from about 15 miles away. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"early-lightkeepers\">What life was like for early lightkeepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring,” Frank Perry wrote in his book, \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/East-Brother-History-Island-Station/dp/0578211750\">\u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station\u003c/em>\u003c/a>. Much of what we know about life on the island comes from Perry’s book, which was compiled using primary sources.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1874, the primary keeper earned $800 a year — the equivalent to about a $24,000 salary today. The assistants earned even less. Their primary responsibility was keeping the light running from sunset to sunrise every night and keeping the fog signal sounding during inclement weather.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Lightkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and slowly bring the flame up to the optimal size of about 1 and 13/16 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to the needs of the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066570\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-69-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Historic photos hang on the wall at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. One lighthouse keeper, John Stenmark, brought his wife and children to live on the island. They had many friends in the community and would host large gatherings on the island. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“Because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour,” said Danielle La Vigne, one of the resident innkeepers at East Brother Light Station. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The innkeepers also had to wipe the glass panes of the lantern room with dry towels to keep moisture away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On foggy nights, the keepers’ jobs were doubly hard. They had to run the fog signal, too, which sits in another building on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light,” wrote Perry. “In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell every 15 seconds until the whistle could be sounded. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beyond the core responsibilities, keepers kept up with a long list of chores: cooking, cleaning, maintenance and repairs. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-5 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066564\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066564\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-22-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The 19th-century lighthouse complex includes a restored fog signal that once warned ships navigating San Pablo Bay. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066563\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066563\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-17-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The foghorn machinery at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When they needed food to supplement the dry rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town. At the time, that was San Quentin, about 2 1/2 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor,” said La Vigne. “They had to row.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A daily log was kept by the primary keeper, accounting for the day’s weather and work. Most entries are not more than a sentence, but they do give us a glimpse at the day-to-day life on East Brother. A string of entries in 1882 mention an assistant keeper named Mr. Page, who was a bit of a screw-up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>July 14, 1882 – Wind S.W., strong. Mr. Page left for San Quentin A.M., capsized off the buoy near the West Brother at 12:15 p.m. Capt. Windsor hailed the Steamer Reform passing up at the time and sent her to his relief. The Reform picked him up ¼ of a mile N.N.E. of the Light House and landed him and the boat at the dock at 1:15 p.m. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, etc., etc., lost, also milk and can.\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>Dec. 14, 1882 – Wind N.E. Foggy from 4 a.m. to 10 a.m. Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Feb. 8 1883 – Wind N.E. Light, clear. Mr. Page went for mail and stores, drunk, no mail.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On Feb. 10, 1883, a new assistant, Mr. Tippett, is mentioned, and Mr. Page is never spoken of again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Stenmark era\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though some keepers were men living on their own, passing through East Brother for only a few years, families lived here, too. John Stenmark moved here in 1894 with his wife and 3-month-old daughter, Annie, and they stayed for 20 years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They set up a vegetable garden and raised pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Prior to the birth of each of his two sons [Mr. Stenmark] rowed all the way to San Quentin and back to fetch the doctor,” wrote Perry.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the kids grew older, the government paid for a teacher to live on the island for a time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On April 18, 1906, Stenmark wrote about one of the most infamous days in local history in the logbook.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cblockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\">\n\u003cp>\u003cem>A heavy earthquake this morning at 5:15 a.m. Lenses of the light broken and glassware broke, and everything of glass broke. \u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Doors open of themselves and the whole island rocking. All the lenses broke.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003c/blockquote>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the next two days, the Stenmarks watched from their quiet island as the fire that followed the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12068602/san-franciscos-historic-relief-cottages-built-after-the-1906-earthquake-are-hidden-in-plain-sight\">earthquake consumed San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The end of lighthouse keepers\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station, most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>“The original used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene,” Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066565\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-40-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view from the inn at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>One big change came in 1934 when electricity arrived on the island via an underwater cable that connected it to shore. A lightkeeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night — greatly reducing their daily chore load. The steam-powered fog signal was replaced with a diaphonic horn that can still be operated today and is one of only eight like it in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident personnel from the island in 1969. They planned to demolish all the buildings and put the light on a steel tower. But residents living in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse off their shoreline and were ready to fight for it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"bed-and-breakfast\">How it was converted to a bed and breakfast\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“One of the first things [local residents] did was write a National Register nomination for it, which was successful,” said Tom Butt, founder and president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond and a longtime city council member. “That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down because it invoked the Historic Preservation Act of 1966.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The group then tried to find a local organization to take on rehabilitating the site, because by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on organizations like the National Park Service and East Bay Regional Park District, but no one was interested.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think everybody looked at it and [thought] it was just too much,” said Butt. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He went to the island in 1978. “Looking back now,” he said, “I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, ‘you know, we can do this.’”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066569\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-68-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Marin Room, which faces Mount Tamalpais, at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-6 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066567\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066567\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-54-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A lighthouse shower curtain hangs in a bathroom at the inn on East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12066571\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066571\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-76-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A room at East Brother Light Station, an island just off the Richmond shoreline, on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat. The inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabilitating everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“All the buildings at that point were covered with asbestos shingles,” Butt said. “All of the ornamental railings had long since been taken off. We were lucky we had original plans from the National Archives, so we were able to replicate all that trim and put that back on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Volunteers did electrical work, plumbing, plastering and painting. It was a ton of work, but they managed to get it all done in about a year. The nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast in 1980 to provide a stream of revenue to keep up with the maintenance.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though most of the operational costs and maintenance for the B&B are now covered by the nightly fee guests pay, \u003ca href=\"https://www.gofundme.com/f/save-east-brother-lighthouse-replace-the-pier?cp_src=d\">a major fundraising effort\u003c/a> is underway to replace the dock and gangway on the east side of the island. It must be replaced, or access to the island could be threatened. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visiting-today\">Visiting East Brother Light Station today\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The nonprofit B&B is open four nights a week for overnight guests, and it’s recommended you \u003ca href=\"https://ebls.org/?_gl=1%2A1oq51ai%2A_ga%2AMjkzMDI3NzY5LjE3ODYxMzI2MjI.%2A_ga_J5B5MW125P%2AczE3ODc4NzI0MjUkbzckZzEkdDE3ODc4NzI0NDMkajQyJGwwJGgw\">book one of the five rooms well in advance\u003c/a>. Rates range from $525 to $575 per night. During summer months, there is once-monthly day-use access for $45, which includes the boat ride to and from the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the overnight stays, guests are taken by boat from Point San Pablo Marina by innkeepers Colvin and La Vigne. Once on the island, hors d’oeuvre and champagne are served, Colvin gives a history talk, and then comes a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We try to focus as much as we can on keeping things local,” La Vigne said. “We collaborate with the little goat farm that’s in the harbor, and we tend to plan the meals around what is being harvested now, what’s in season.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12066568\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2025/12/251208-EASTBROTHER-64-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Innkeepers Rachel (Rae) Colvin (left) and Danielle La Vigne at East Brother Light Station in Richmond on Dec. 8, 2025. The historic lighthouse sits on a small, rocky outcrop in San Pablo Bay and is accessible only by boat, and the inn provides overnight stays in the restored 19th-century keeper’s quarters. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>They also try to make meals part of the historical experience, using ingredients the keepers would have received as part of their rations — like potatoes, rice and salted pork.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We have recipes from the Lighthouse Keeper’s Manual from 1891 that had recipes for how to stretch your rations. Last night we served for the first course a corn chowder that is from that original Lighthouse Keeper’s handbook,” La Vigne said. “Although their recipe was incredibly bland, and I spruced it up a lot.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, historically inspired … but for a modern palate. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Guests sleep in rooms neatly decorated with antiques. Most rooms are named after the view you see from the room, so there’s West Brother (the neighboring island), Marin Room, San Francisco Room. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A more modest room is out in the fog signal building — a popular choice for returning guests looking for a different experience, Colvin said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most of the clientele are couples looking for a romantic getaway, but the house is also regularly rented out entirely by groups for birthdays, anniversaries or themed experiences.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had two murder mystery dinner parties in the past month,” La Vigne said. “Both parties dressed up. They were in character the whole time. It was 1920 the whole time they were here.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the morning, before guests depart, they offer a demonstration of the fog signal — I can attest, it’s loud!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>sound design of the sea: waves, gulls\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s something dreamy about lighthouses.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their striking architecture, rising high above our human scale.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Their symbolism. A literal light in the darkness.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In me, lighthouses stir something nostalgic. A time before GPS and radar — when navigation was done with charts and stars.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, many lighthouses across the United States have become tourism attractions, like Cape Hatteras in North Carolina and the St. Augustine Lighthouse in Florida.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But there’s a lighthouse near San Francisco that offers an experience like none other. Not just a quick trip to the top, but an opportunity to live like a lighthouse keeper of yore!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station looks like it could have been plucked from a child’s storybook. It’s a charming three-story wooden house, painted a creamy yellow with white gingerbread trim. At the top, stands a tower, where the brilliant light beckons through the fog.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Kathleen got to wondering a lot of things about this lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>What’s the history? Did somebody live on that island previously? Just how far back do we have documentation of, you know, what went on on that Island?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So today we’re on a mission for answers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Step one! We have to get to the lighthouse. At a marina north of the Richmond-San Rafael Bridge, Kathleen and I make our way toward a small boat.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There we meet Danielle La Vigne and Rae Colvin — the two keepers currently living on the island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Oh, you guys can hop on board. Our insurance company does ask that you wear those.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Life vests are on, and we are off. Danielle and Rae have been living at the East Brother Light Station for about a year and half. But the helm of a boat is a familiar place for them.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> Did you know how to drive a boat, or is this a recent skill you’ve had to acquire? ‘Cause you’ve, you guys have been on the job for…\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>I’ve been a commercial captain for almost 20 years. This is the smallest boat that I’ve ever operated professionally. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As we’re making our way out of the marina, Rae spots a seal.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>A lot of seals live out by the island. … we have a bunch of birds and the harbor seals and sometimes a sea lion.\u003cem>\u003cs>\u003cbr>\u003c/s>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Danielle and Rae are the only two full-time \u003cem>human\u003c/em> residents of East Brother Light Station. But they’re far from alone out there. Because keeping the light running is not their main focus. Instead it’s catering to the weekly overnight guests who join them at the Light Station. Because these days East Brother is a one-of-a-kind bed and breakfast. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, we just snuck around the bend, and I am seeing the light station probably 400 feet away or so.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>I can’t see it from up on the water, but down beneath our boat lies the answer to one of Kathleen’s questions. Why is this lighthouse \u003cem>here\u003c/em>, some 15 miles from the open ocean?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the decades after gold was first found in California in 1848, mining activity in the Sierra really ramped up. Getting supplies from San Francisco up into the mountains often meant taking a boat — floating things up the Sacramento and San Joaquin rivers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ships had to skirt around Point San Pablo — where our little boat just departed from. Rae Colvin explains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And they put a lighthouse out here because the topography under the water is pretty interesting. There’s a 160-foot-deep chasm right off the island. But most of the open ocean off to the side that you can see averages out to about 15 feet deep. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Ships passing through this channel were constantly at risk of running aground even in good weather. Add in some dense fog and it’s pretty precarious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So in the early 1870s, it was decided a lighthouse and foghorn were needed. Initially, they hoped to put the light station on the mainland, but quickly ran into issues…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The people who owned the land on the East Bay there didn’t want to sell to the government to let them build a lighthouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After years of trying and failing to get the landowners to relent, the government changed course. Just offshore was \u003cem>East Brother Island\u003c/em> — a speck of land really, smaller than an acre — but it was enough. And better yet, it was land the U.S. government already owned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Workers blasted sandstone from the top of the island to create a level plot. A foundation went in, walls went up, and in less than a year the six-room Victorian light station was complete. The design is quite striking…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ornamental woodwork on it, and it’s three stories.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But it’s not exactly unique. Lighthouses with a similar design were built all over the West Coast. This is the oldest one still standing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music ends\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade up on sound of boat slowing down and approaching dock. Ambi of arriving sounds.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The wind picks up as our little boat approaches the island and sidles up to the dock. Once we’re off, Danielle and Rae work to get the boat lifted out of the water.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>If we left it in the water, it would just get thrashed against the dock all day long, and this dock already needs help so.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>This one’s been here since I think the 1960s, and, you know, it’s seen better days.\u003cem> \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The dock may need work, but as we make our way up some stairs and onto the property, a tidy semicircle of three buildings emerges. The main light station to the west, a small cottage to the north, and a fog signal building to the east. All fit on about three-quarters of an acre. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The buildings surround a low white dome covering something beneath the pavement. Danielle explains…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We need to collect rainwater to survive out here, this whole courtyard is set up to direct all of the rain flow down into the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Across the courtyard we head into the main house, where today most of the overnight bed-and-breakfast guests stay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So of course we have to do the shameless product placement. As you enter the house, the first room you see is the gift shop.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>OK, so, the gift shop is not original to the light station, but the mugs they sell are popular with B&B guests. Couples often come out for romantic getaways. Kathleen and I learn learn groups stay here for birding weekends or murder-mystery parties.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> How often do you get groups that rent the whole island? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two, yeah, two to three times a month. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The house has seen some changes over its 152-year life, but it’s not hard to imagine what it once was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Most often three lighthouse keepers, and sometimes their families, shared the home. There’d be a primary keeper, aka the boss, living downstairs. And then the first assistant upstairs, along with a junior keeper, someone just learning the ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They all lived, ate and slept beneath the tower that housed the light. Staying close because it needed constant attention. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> This is the parlor, which is the comfy hangout spot for the guests. Originally this would have been the junior keeper’s parlor. And the bedroom right over here, the Marin room, would have been the junior keeper’s bedroom. So it was kind of like a little apartment.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today, B&B guests stay in bedrooms with cozy beds, decorated with beautiful antiques. Historical maps and pictures of boats hang on the walls. And each room gets a name, based on what is visible outside the window.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So this is the San Francisco room, and it’s my personal favorite room. \u003cs>I\u003c/s>t has an arched ceiling, and it looks out to San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We make our way to the main attraction: the tower … which is made up of three tiny rooms stacked on top of each other. We start at the base.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>So this is kind of the prep room where they’d get everything ready, but every half hour they had to go up there and trim the wick and refill the oil.\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Next we head up to the Watch room.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> It’s a tightly winding staircase like you would expect in a Victorian mansion.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>We’re now 40 feet up. So you’ve got a pretty good view. If it’s stormy out, if it seems like it’s there’s a danger of a ship not seeing the light or whatever, that’s where you’re watching from so that you can signal those people if you need to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Finally, we head to the pinnacle. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> Up here is more winding stairs up into the actual lighthouse. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I will say, the view from this room is spectacular. The light itself, a little bit of a letdown. Today a 4 inch LED sits in the space.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin:\u003c/strong> So the original light, it was a Fresnel lens with a little lantern torch in the middle. And originally that torch on this station was powered by lard oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fourth-order Fresnel lens! Imagine a magnificent orb of glass, made up of neat rows of prisms, standing several feet tall. They were designed to concentrate the light of a single flame so intensely it could be seen for about 15 miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On March 1, 1874, as sunset approached, three lighthouse keepers climbed up into this very tower, and lit the oil lamp for the very first time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The lighthouse has been operating, in some fashion or another, ever since.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>[Music moment]\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When we return, we explore what life was like living and working at East Brother. And it might not be like you expect! Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor messages\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>If you enjoy stories like this one, consider becoming a financial supporter of KQED. Learn more at donate.kqed.org/podcasts.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music begins\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s easy to get enamored by the apparent simplicity of life on an island in the middle of the Bay. I know I imagine myself reading in a hammock. Our question asker, Kathleen, loves that cell reception out on East Brother is limited.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> It is great to decompress and turn your phone off, and we don’t have a lot of opportunities to do that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And sure, that is the experience you will get here today as a guest at the B&B. But working here is hard, as Danielle can attest.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne: \u003c/strong>The work is never-ending. Because it’s just the two of us … So we’re the phones and the emails and the booking. There’s some degree of maintenance work that is pretty much always happening. The house needs to be deep cleaned every week between guests.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Working here has always been hard. Historian Frank Perry makes clear that his book, \u003cem>East Brother: History of an Island Light Station.\u003c/em> Here’s an excerpt…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>BOOK VO: \u003c/strong>Despite the romantic portrayal of lighthouse keeping in novels, poems and art, the job was monotonous, and the Lighthouse Board knew it. Pay was modest and much of the work boring. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The nightly routine would begin at sunset. Innkeepers would fill the lamp with lard oil, light the wick, and bring the flame slowly up to the optimal size, just shy of 2 inches. If they did this too quickly, the glass chimney inside the rotating Fresnel lens could crack from the change in temperature. That alone was a 30-minute job. Then the keepers had to sit in the watch room all night, tending to its various needs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle \u003cstrong>La Vigne\u003c/strong>: \u003c/strong>And because of the timing on that clockwork mechanism and how quickly the wicks would burn down, you gotta check it every half hour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On a clear night, the tiny flame, refracted through that powerful lens, could be seen from parts of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>On a foggy night, things got more complicated. Keepers had to run the fog signal across the courtyard too. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>The whistle was sometimes more important in aiding mariners than the light. In dense fog or heavy rain, East Brother’s powerful light was virtually useless. The 10-inch whistle, on the other hand, could often be heard from 10 or 12 miles away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It took about 45 minutes to build up enough steam in the boiler for the fog whistle to work. So in the meantime, one of the keepers went outside and struck a large bell until the whistle could be sounded. Danielle gave us a demonstration.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Danielle whacking the bell\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What a job.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bell ambi\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Book VO: \u003c/strong>Since the whistle might be put in operation night or day, off-duty keepers had to learn to sleep in spite of the noise. Some keepers apparently got quite good at this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Keepers were also quite busy with chores. Cooking, cleaning, maintenance, repairs. When they needed food to supplement the rations that got delivered once a year or so, they had to leave the island for the nearest town, which at the time was San Quentin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> So in order to get anything, they had to go to San Quentin. And I have a 200 horsepower motorboat to get back and forth to our little harbor. They had to row.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor:\u003c/strong> So how far would the trip have been from here to San Quentin? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Danielle La Vigne:\u003c/strong> Two and a half miles.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Light Keepers also kept daily logbooks with short entries about the day’s work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Feb. 14 1883 – Wind S.W. Squally, strong. Employed all day cleaning engine room and lens in lantern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>…but sometimes you get a glimpse of more. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music start\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>There was an assistant keeper who got put down in the logbook as a drunken screw-up. He’s one of my favorites.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Joseph Page was his name. And let’s just say the head keeper at the time was not a fan.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>Dec. 14, 1882 – Mr. Page went to San Quentin for mail, returned as usual, drunk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Voice Over: \u003c/strong>July 14, 1882 – Mr. Page left for San Quentin. Capsized off the buoy at 12:15 p.m. … \u003cem>The Reform\u003c/em> picked him up ¼ mile NNE of light house. Oars, rudder, mail and all the marketing – consisting of mutton, cabbages, peas, lost. Also milk.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Over the decades, technological improvements came regularly to East Brother Light Station … most often to the fuel source used to power the light.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The originals used lard oil lamps, and then they switched to mineral oil, and then they used kerosene.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One big change came in 1934 when the lens was electrified – via an underwater cable that connected the island to shore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A light keeper was no longer needed to keep a flame burning all night – greatly reducing their daily chore load – and probably greatly improving their quality of life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But it was also the first step toward automation – and eliminating the need for lighthouse keepers altogether.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Eventually that came, of course, in 1969. To save on salaries, the U.S. Coast Guard automated everything and pulled the last resident keeper from the island. They planned to demolish the light station, and all the buildings on the island, and put the light on a steel tower.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But locals living nearby in Point Richmond had other plans. They had grown attached to the charming lighthouse out in the bay, and vowed to save it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>One of the first things they did was write a national register nomination for it, which was successful.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom Butt is the president of East Brother Light Station Inc., the nonprofit that operates the bed and breakfast. He’s also the former mayor of Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>East Brother Light Station made it onto the National Register of Historic Places in 1971. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> That didn’t save it, but it made it harder for the Coast Guard to tear it down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The local group then tried to find a local organization to take on restoring the site — by that point it was more than a decade behind on maintenance and needed serious work. They focused on groups like the National Parks Service and East Bay Regional Park District. But no one bit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> I think everybody looked at it, and they just it was it it it was just too much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Tom went out to the island in 1978.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Looking back now, I was a lot younger and not near as smart as I am now, and I was intrigued by it and said, you know, we can do this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He and others formed a nonprofit and started leasing the site from the Coast Guard. They spent a year rehabbing everything, mostly with volunteer work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>New concrete around the cistern.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt:\u003c/strong> We had to do electrical work, we had to do plumbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>All the ornamental railings had been taken off, so they made new ones using the original plans they found in the National Archives.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>Repainted everything on the inside. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was asbestos to remove.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Tom Butt: \u003c/strong>It was a lot of work. And you know … it took a year, but we got it done. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>When the work was complete around 1980, the nonprofit began running the site as a bed and breakfast to provide a stream of revenue to keep up on the maintenance. And … well … because it’s fun!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the beginning of the stay, guests get a boat ride out with innkeepers Danielle and Rae, just like we did at the beginning of the story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>We do charcuterie and champagne…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A history tour with Rae.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then dinner is a four-course dinner with wine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>A fantastic sunset, if the weather cooperates…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>And then in the morning it’s a full breakfast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Just before heading back to shore, guests get a special demonstration that we also get to see on our tour…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>So the gasoline starter engine here is what actually starts the diesel … And this one starts with a ripped cord. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In the fog signal building, Rae shows us the multistep process it takes to blow the foghorn like they did in the 1930s. The small room is packed with old mechanical equipment, some more than 100 years old. It smells like… old military? Is that a smell?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a couple diesel engines, a few air compressors … and they’re all kept running today as a museum piece … because the diaphonic horn is one of only eight like it still functioning in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rae Colvin: \u003c/strong>The horn sounds cool in here, but it’s really cool out there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>After 12 minutes of warming up, we head outside for the grand finale of our tour.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Foghorn blows loudly\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene: \u003c/strong>You jumped.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz in scene: \u003c/strong>Well I didn’t know it was coming. I know you’re kinda counting 15, but you’re like…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Despite being ready, it still startled us all. Absolutely thrilling. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I checked in with our question asker Kathleen, to see what she made of our tour today…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>I think that a lot of times we see us in something we see something that interests us and we do a quick Google search and we think that we’ve kind of learned all we there is to know, but it isn’t until you actually take that boat ride, get out on the island to realize that it is just such a unique experience and really such a hidden secret in the Bay Area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>East Brother Light Station is such a special place. An improbable compromise carved into stone. A beacon of safety. The sound of warning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For decades, keepers traded modern comfort for cold, salt air. They measured their lives in lonely night shifts spent tending a 2-inch flame.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Today this light station offers something softer – a chance to step off the boat, leave the modern world behind and sleep inside a piece of living history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We hinted at it in this story, but the pier platform where boats dock at East Brother is in need of repair. The nonprofit is working to raise $750,000 to replace it, along with the gangway. Access to the island could be threatened if it’s not repaired. We’ll link to their fundraising page in the show notes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Big thanks to historian and author Frank Perry, whose book about East Brother Light Station provided much of the historical information in this episode. And to Kathleen Taylor, our question asker.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We just launched a new voting round at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>, so that means we need your help picking a question to answer in an upcoming episode. Here are your options!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 1:\u003c/strong> Why does this area have so many community colleges and won’t demographics result in fewer students and some needing to eventually close? How does the ratio of colleges to population compare with other states?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 2:\u003c/strong> Why did rogue botanists plant Venus flytraps in the Albion Pygmy Forest in Mendocino in the 1960s?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Question 3: \u003c/strong>I would love to hear about Sally Stanford, the renowned madam turned mayor. I recall my parents having many colorful conversations about her and her “Damn Bird” when we were living in Sausalito.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Vote anytime this month at \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Kathleen Taylor: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week!\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-are-there-so-many-public-golf-courses-in-the-bay-area",
"title": "Why Are There So Many Public Golf Courses in the Bay Area?",
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"headTitle": "Why Are There So Many Public Golf Courses in the Bay Area? | KQED",
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"content": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, Oakland resident Mary Newson would hike regularly in the parks up in the Oakland and Berkeley hills. It was a pleasant way to get outside, and there was no one around — even on a usually busy golf course near \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/anthony-chabot\">Anthony Chabot Regional Park.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There were deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and all these animals that had just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it,” she said. “That was really a beautiful thing to see.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083077\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers practice at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t sure how they worked, and if there was any sort of financial relationship, administrative relationship between the larger park and the golf course that sort of made them work together,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As it turns out, golf — and public golf, in particular — has a storied history in the Bay Area. And apart from a few conversions, mostly of private golf courses, these public greens are unlikely to be going anywhere soon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#private\">The difference between public and private golf courses\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#make-money\">How public courses do or don’t make money for local parks\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#converting-golf-courses\">Golf course conversions underway in the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visit-a-golf-course\">What to know if you’re visiting a public golf course for the first time\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is the history of golf courses in the Bay Area?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That included influential city leaders like John McLaren, the “father of Golden Gate Park,” who was a Scot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time,” Harris said. “It’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and, for that matter, in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"private\">What makes a public golf course different from a private one?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Public golf courses are those owned by local governments or parks districts. In the Bay Area, they tend to be inside or next to public parks you may know or frequent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"make-money\">Do golf courses make money for public parks?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"converting-golf-courses\">Have there been any talks of converting golf courses to other uses?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s no widespread movement to convert golf courses in the Bay Area into other uses. But there are two notable examples of private golf courses undergoing their own transformations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083082\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083082\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers play a game at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083078\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golf balls line the ground at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visit-a-golf-course\">Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And what are your goals for today on the golf course?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Lily, great to meet you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Of course!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To answer that, Richard says, we have to dig into history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Golf traces its origins to Scotland — Richard explains.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Scottish music plays\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Originated in what they called the Links Land, which is the land between the cities and the coast, which was not much use for anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>John McLaren was a Scot. John McLaren liked golf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>And then another Scot to design Sharp Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, knows that firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s Outdoors reporter Sarah Wright is very familiar with the condemnation golf courses sometimes face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>That was incredible, I don’t even know where it went! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>It sliced to the right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>After around an hour, we called it quits. I asked Mary how she thought it went.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I know that I’ll be practicing my swing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“There were deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and all these animals that had just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it,” she said. “That was really a beautiful thing to see.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083077\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers practice at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t sure how they worked, and if there was any sort of financial relationship, administrative relationship between the larger park and the golf course that sort of made them work together,” she said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As it turns out, golf — and public golf, in particular — has a storied history in the Bay Area. And apart from a few conversions, mostly of private golf courses, these public greens are unlikely to be going anywhere soon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#make-money\">How public courses do or don’t make money for local parks\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That included influential city leaders like John McLaren, the “father of Golden Gate Park,” who was a Scot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time,” Harris said. “It’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and, for that matter, in the world.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"private\">What makes a public golf course different from a private one?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Public golf courses are those owned by local governments or parks districts. In the Bay Area, they tend to be inside or next to public parks you may know or frequent.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026.\u003ccite class=\"wp-inline-image-credit\"> (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Do golf courses make money for public parks?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Have there been any talks of converting golf courses to other uses?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s no widespread movement to convert golf courses in the Bay Area into other uses. But there are two notable examples of private golf courses undergoing their own transformations. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visit-a-golf-course\">Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And what are your goals for today on the golf course?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Lily, great to meet you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Of course!\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To answer that, Richard says, we have to dig into history.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Golf traces its origins to Scotland — Richard explains.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Scottish music plays\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Originated in what they called the Links Land, which is the land between the cities and the coast, which was not much use for anything. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>John McLaren was a Scot. John McLaren liked golf. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>And then another Scot to design Sharp Park…\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, knows that firsthand. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s Outdoors reporter Sarah Wright is very familiar with the condemnation golf courses sometimes face.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>That was incredible, I don’t even know where it went! \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>It sliced to the right.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>After around an hour, we called it quits. I asked Mary how she thought it went.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I know that I’ll be practicing my swing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Public golf’s storied Bay Area history and why its picturesque courses endure today.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, Oakland resident Mary Newson would hike regularly in the parks up in the Oakland and Berkeley hills. It was a pleasant way to get outside, and there was no one around — even on a usually busy golf course near \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/parks/anthony-chabot\">Anthony Chabot Regional Park.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“There were deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and all these animals that had just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it,” she said. “That was really a beautiful thing to see.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But then, the restrictions started to let up, things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks. It made her wonder: Why are there so many golf courses in public parks around the Bay Area? Can and should she visit as a non-golfer? And what is their financial relationship to the park?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083077\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03134-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers practice at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>“I wasn’t sure how they worked, and if there was any sort of financial relationship, administrative relationship between the larger park and the golf course that sort of made them work together,” she said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As it turns out, golf — and public golf, in particular — has a storied history in the Bay Area. And apart from a few conversions, mostly of private golf courses, these public greens are unlikely to be going anywhere soon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jump straight to:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#private\">The difference between public and private golf courses\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#make-money\">How public courses do or don’t make money for local parks\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#converting-golf-courses\">Golf course conversions underway in the Bay Area\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"#visit-a-golf-course\">What to know if you’re visiting a public golf course for the first time\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">What is the history of golf courses in the Bay Area?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The sport of golf made its way to the Bay Area with the arrival of Scottish immigrants in the 1890s and early 20th century, explained Richard Harris, who advocates for accessible golf with the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/\">San Francisco Public Golf Alliance.\u003c/a> \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That included influential city leaders like John McLaren, the “father of Golden Gate Park,” who was a Scot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083083\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04079-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Richard Harris, president of the SF Public Golf Alliance, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>McLaren, Harris said, was influential in creating Lincoln Park and Harding Park in San Francisco, as well as \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfpublicgolf.org/index.php/save/alister-mackenzies-sharp-park\">Pacifica’s Sharp Park\u003c/a>, designed by famous golf architect Alister MacKenzie. These are all public, not private golf courses, and are considered to be world-class, he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time,” Harris said. “It’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and, for that matter, in the world.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"private\">What makes a public golf course different from a private one?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Public golf courses are those owned by local governments or parks districts. In the Bay Area, they tend to be inside or next to public parks you may know or frequent.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses help lower barriers to the sport by being accessible and relatively cheap, said Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club and a member of the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083084\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04136-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Lily Achatz, president of Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, poses for a portrait at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s stunning and what makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here,” Achatz said. “The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"make-money\">Do golf courses make money for public parks?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Depending on the city or parks district, public golf courses can be real money-makers. Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District, said Tilden Golf Course made the district $800,000 last year. It was the most profitable concession in the entire parks district last year, \u003ca href=\"https://www.ebparks.org/sites/default/files/fy26-adopted-operating-capital-projects-budgets-w-bookmarks.pdf\">according to district documents.\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That’s not the case with every city or district. In San Francisco, \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-golfers-grumble-over-course-privatization-plan-20184922.php\">the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit\u003c/a> and has \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2025/07/22/sf-parks-fees/\">begun raising rates\u003c/a> at some public courses to help close the gap. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, course fees are limited by a public board to keep fees low-cost for residents, Korten said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"converting-golf-courses\">Have there been any talks of converting golf courses to other uses?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s no widespread movement to convert golf courses in the Bay Area into other uses. But there are two notable examples of private golf courses undergoing their own transformations. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The most controversial right now is Pleasant Hills in San José. It’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12074738/housing-advocates-call-this-big-plot-of-san-jose-land-the-most-important-in-a-century\">a former private 115-acre golf course\u003c/a> that may become 2,000 new homes with some commercial and open space. It’s currently in environmental review as the community goes back and forth on what to do with it. What to do has become a fight, said Manira Sandhir, deputy director of planning for the city of San José. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"aligncenter size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083080\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03581-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-gallery has-nested-images columns-default is-cropped wp-block-gallery-3 is-layout-flex wp-block-gallery-is-layout-flex\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083082\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083082\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-04043-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golfers play a game at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" data-id=\"12083078\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12083078\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260506-GOLFINGBAYCURIOUS-TV-03155-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Golf balls line the ground at Golden Gate Park Golf Course Clubhouse in San Francisco on May 6, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“On one hand we have the community who’s directly affected by this project and has expressed concerns about the traffic that it would generate,” she said. It’s located in a highly car-dependent area, and there’s not a lot of transit or freeway access there either. “But then on the other hand, we have housing advocates who want to see more housing at the site, and they feel that putting 2,000 units at the site would be underutilization of this really large acreage that’s available for development.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The course, Sandhir said, was established in the 1960s but closed in 2004, likely for financial reasons — so not explicitly for this conversion. Sandhir said it’s likely to be years before the dust settles and a coherent plan for the site emerges.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Farther to the north, in Marin County’s San Geronimo Valley, another golf course has seen the end of its days. The Trust for Public Land, a land conservation organization, converted what was once a private 18-hole golf course into \u003ca href=\"https://www.tpl.org/our-work/san-geronimo-commons\">San Geronimo Commons\u003c/a>, a public park that fills a missing connection to surrounding open spaces, restores water rights to the Larson Creek and returns the land to its former function as a wetland. A county firehouse has even taken over the old golf clubhouse.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I do think cities, park systems across the country, certainly in California, are rethinking their inventory and what can happen,” he said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The car paths became walking paths, the sand traps became sandboxes for the kids,” said Guillermo Rodriguez, Trust for Public Land’s California director. He said this is one of four golf course conversions they have helped lead in the state, part of what he sees as a growing trend in California.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The San Geronimo conversion wasn’t without its own controversy. After purchasing the property in 2018, Trust for Public Land launched a two-year process to narrow down what the community wanted from the property – and not everyone agreed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We had a lot of passionate golfers who had lots of memories tied to that facility,” he said. “And while, yes, there were other facilities they could go play golf in, they had history there, and so we had to work through that.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Senior manager on the project Erica Williams said in some ways, the COVID-19 pandemic set the stage for the transition of the property — opening people’s imaginations to how their community spaces could look. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“With the pandemic, I think that really allowed people to connect with the landscape, to reconnect with the land and to imagine a future,” she said. “It became a sanctuary.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"visit-a-golf-course\">Can I visit a golf course as a non-golfer?\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Municipal golf courses are open to everyone, whether you want to reserve a tee time to try your hand at playing, practice your swing at the driving range, or just hang out at the cafes and restaurants onsite. Unlike private courses, there is no dress code at public golf courses. Dogs are not allowed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>While walking along the course if you’re not playing generally isn’t allowed (getting hit by a ball is a real risk), many courses like Tilden have walking trails nearby that are open to anyone. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you want to play a round of golf, you should plan to book a tee time in advance. Public courses also offer golf club rentals if you don’t have any of your own.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> It’s the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic, and everything is shut down – even the gym. So Bay Curious listener Mary Newsom decided to go for a walk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I live in Oakland. And so I would usually sort of go up to the ridgeline and start hiking and all the regional parks that are up on the ridgeline.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Eventually, Mary made her way up to Anthony Chabot Regional Park. Given the pandemic, there was no one around.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>And so one of the golf courses that’s right alongside Chabot was completely empty. There were, like, deer and bunnies and geese and ducks and turkeys and like all these animals. That it just converged onto the golf course because nobody was using it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> But then, the restrictions started to let up, and things started to reopen, and Mary would start to find dozens of golf balls on her walks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>It sort of made me wonder about the relationship between the park and the golf course that’s right up against it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Mary looked into what other municipal golf courses are located inside public parks, and the list is really quite long…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Golden Gate Park, Presidio, Lincoln Park, Gleneagles, Tilden Park, Lake Chabot, Redwood Canyon, Sequoia…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And that’s just a partial list. This all got Mary wondering about the relationship between public parks and the golf courses within them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Why are there so many golf courses in the Bay Area right next to, or inside public parks? Do they subsidize the parks? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We sent KQED’s outdoors reporter, Sarah Wright, to take a swing at finding some answers. She started, as you might expect, at Hole 1.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds chirping, golf balls getting whacked\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> The Golden Gate Park Golf Course is set up on a hill, right by San Francisco’s Ocean Beach. The breeze is strong, and a hawk has been circling overhead as a new set of golfers sets up at the first hole every 15 minutes. Here, I run into Lizzie Yurchak. She lives in the Pacific Heights neighborhood, and she came out to play the course today with a coworker who is from out of town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>He lives in Texas, so we were like, what’s something fun we can do while he’s visiting the Bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> It’s her first time out to this course — actually, her first time golfing in the Bay Area since she moved here from Philadelphia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak:\u003c/strong> I don’t have my clubs out here, so maybe I’ll feel inspired today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And what are your goals for today on the golf course?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lizzie Yurchak: \u003c/strong>Um, don’t shank it. And don’t lose foul balls. I think that’s about it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She does not, in fact, shank it. I watch as she lines up for a stroke.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lizzie hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Man:\u003c/strong> There we go!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Besides meeting golfers like Lizzie, I’m actually here to meet Richard Harris and Lily Achatz. They’re with the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, which advocates for affordable golf in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Sarah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Lily, great to meet you. Thanks for having me.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>Of course!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I am here to ask them Mary’s question. Why are there so many golf courses in public parks in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To answer that, Richard says, we have to dig into history.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Golf has been an important part of the Bay Area for a long time. And it’s one of the major golf areas in the country, and for that matter, in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Golf traces its origins to Scotland — Richard explains.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Scottish music plays\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>Originated in what they called the Links Land, which is the land between the cities and the coast, which was not much use for anything. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Richard says that in the 1890s and early 20th century, immigrants, including Scots, came here and brought golf with them. Among them was a man who had a huge impact on recreation in our region. The father of Golden Gate Park – John McLaren. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>John McLaren was a Scot. John McLaren liked golf. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>He first built Lincoln Park, a golf course by the Legion of Honor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> And then quickly, he found another Scot to design Harding Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… A legendary course near Lake Merced.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>And then another Scot to design Sharp Park…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>… Just steps from the ocean in Pacifica.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris: \u003c/strong>That Scot being Alistair McKenzie. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>McKenzie is most famous for having designed Augusta, in Georgia, where the Masters is played.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those iconic early courses built in the Bay Area were — and still are — all public, not private, golf courses. And today they’re known as some of the most premium municipal courses in the nation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In California, Richard said, publicly owned courses make up about a third of all courses statewide. And they’re at the forefront of welcoming new players into the sport and combating golf’s reputation for being overly white, male and exclusive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Lily Achatz, president of the Harding Park Women’s Golf Club, knows that firsthand. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> I didn’t grow up playing golf. I got into golf much later, about like six years ago. I don’t know how many sports there are that you can get into, you know, get into it so late. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>She says municipal golf courses, with their relatively cheap fees and open access, are critical to help lower barriers to the sport.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>A private golf club could run you thousands of dollars in initiation fees, monthly dues and food and beverage minimums. A round at a public golf course, meanwhile, ranges from about $30 to $100, with discounts for residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz:\u003c/strong> What makes it so wonderful is that there’s all different generations here. There’s friends, all different backgrounds. The municipal courses are so important because it’s hard to get access to a country club or even be accepted.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>In fact, golf wasn’t even racially integrated until the 1950s. And Bay Area municipal courses had a role in that, too. Richard shows me a photo of a plaque that hangs at Pacifica’s Sharp Park course. At the time, the course was known for denying tee times to Black players. But in 1955, that changed when Sharp Park became the site of the inaugural championship tournament of the Western States Golf Association, one of the country’s oldest and largest African American golfing organizations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Richard Harris:\u003c/strong> It was swimming pools in the south. In San Francisco, it was golf courses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Still, even today, municipal courses can feel exclusive. When Mary asked her question originally, she actually pointed out this bias she feels. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>If I’m walking through a city park and I pass by tennis courts, I don’t really blink an eye, or basketball courts. But it’s funny that to me, like a golf course strikes me differently, you know that I sort of wonder, oh, wait, why is this here? And who actually uses this? You know? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> When we return, we explore who these golf courses are for. And get into the finances. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>KQED’s Outdoors reporter Sarah Wright is very familiar with the condemnation golf courses sometimes face.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Any type of golf course will inevitably draw criticism from those worried about its environmental impact. They are, after all, enormous, frequently watered, heavily manicured lawns. Many golf courses are\u003cem> \u003c/em>working to become more sustainable, but that could be its own story for another day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep things focused on Mary’s question, I spoke with Max Korten, acting general manager of the East Bay Regional Parks District.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He says the public has just as much a right to nice turf on a golf course as any other park amenity. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten: \u003c/strong>I think it’s one of the really cool things about some of our parks is like, in Tilden, there’s like the merry-go-round, the steam trains, the golf course, like some of these things that… You kind of feel like you’re visiting another era.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>East Bay Regional Parks has two golf courses, Tilden and Redwood Canyon, and Max says they take up just a combined 240 acres of the 120,000 the district manages. And the golf courses aren’t just for golfers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> The driving range is something that like anybody could do. I’ve taken my son there, my dad and step-mom, like who haven’t really ever played golf, and go just try to hit balls. And it’s really fun and fairly inexpensive. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Max explained that golf courses in East Bay parks are operated as concessions. So a private company, in this case, called Touchstone, operates the courses and then a percentage of their profits, around 10 percent, goes to the parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They can also be a major money maker for the parks. Last year, Max said, Tilden brought in over $800,000 in revenue — it’s the most profitable concession in the entire parks district. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the East Bay, fees are limited by the public parks district board to keep things affordable for the golfers themselves, Max said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Korten:\u003c/strong> Keeping these public courses around to provide low-cost ways for community members to access golf is really important because I think they’re sort of an equity opportunity to make sure that this sport is available to everyone. \u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Now, not every city can say public golf is a money maker. In San Francisco, for example, the city is subsidizing the courses’ expected $6 million deficit for the 2026-27 fiscal year, and the city has begun raising rates at some public courses to help close the gap.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, to answer Mary’s question, there often is a symbiotic relationship between the parks departments and the courses – but not always. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I went and told Mary what I found — about how the golf courses she was walking by during the pandemic — do help fund the park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary: \u003c/strong>I’m glad to hear that they’re actually making money for East Bay Regional Parks. I feel like, you know, parks are always underfunded, you know, they’re always sort of like the first to be cut. So, to hear that they’re actually supporting the park, I think, is great.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>I admit — I was surprised to learn that too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s definitely sort of changed my mind and sort of given me more of a positive perspective on them than I had before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>So much so that she was even willing to give it a try herself. Olivia and I asked Mary and Lily Achatz, from the San Francisco Public Golf Alliance, to join us at Corica Park in Alameda. It’s hot and sunny, and for a Thursday afternoon, the golf course is bustling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>You guys brought the good weather. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Corica Park actually has several golf courses, and even a foot golf course where you can kick soccer balls into giant holes in the green. We convened at the smaller Par 3 course, which is a great option for kids, beginners or anyone looking for a lower-key experience — which was perfect for our group of just one expert and three complete amateurs.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> I have never played golf before ever in my life. Not even miniature golf, actually, neither one. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So how do you predict this is going to go?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>I honestly don’t know, but I do see some water over here and I imagine one of my balls would go in there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Well, as it turns out, Mary is an athlete – she grew up playing basketball, volleyball, soccer, tennis, rowing — you name it. So she got the hang of it quick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>Here, I’m just going to do a gentle putt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Mary hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Nice, woohoo!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom: \u003c/strong>My first ever!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>Olivia and I, we did our best… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Okay, it only took three swings to make contact.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> And you did it. And you were lined up perfectly. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>And, no surprise, Lily crushed us all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of Lily hitting the golf ball\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>That was incredible, I don’t even know where it went! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Lily Achatz: \u003c/strong>It sliced to the right.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright: \u003c/strong>After around an hour, we called it quits. I asked Mary how she thought it went.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Mary Newsom:\u003c/strong> It felt a little funny, but I think if I did it more, I would definitely get used to it, you know, and it would be something, like, I would be at home, right? You know before bed or something like that, practicing my swing, like, okay, you know.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> So, Olivia, what do you think? Is there more golfing in our future?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I think I’m going to stick to podcasting, for now. But I don’t know, Mary seemed to be getting into it. Maybe we’ll have to check in with her in a year and see how things are coming along.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> I know that I’ll be practicing my swing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sarah Wright, outdoors reporter for KQED. Thank you!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sarah Wright:\u003c/strong> Thank you so much.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, Anna Casalme, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild American Federation of Television and Radio Artists San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-is-flock-safety-so-controversial-in-the-bay-area",
"title": "Why Is Flock Safety So Controversial in the Bay Area?",
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"headTitle": "Why Is Flock Safety So Controversial in the Bay Area? | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>Flock Safety automated license plate readers have proliferated across the Bay Area over the past several years. But as residents learn more about the type of data captured and how it can be used by law enforcement agencies across the country, pushback has grown. Proponents of the system say it helps make our streets safer. Opponents worry it violates our Fourth Amendment right to privacy. Morgan Sung from KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">dug into these questions\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1473065417&light=true\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">‘Get the Flock Out’: The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12088076/san-francisco-police-audit-shows-feds-accessed-license-plate-data-hundreds-of-times\">San Francisco Police Audit Shows Feds ‘Improperly’ Accessed License Plate Data Hundreds of Times\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094101/stanford-cuts-ties-with-flock-safety-shifts-to-new-surveillance-vendor\">Stanford Cuts Ties With Flock Safety, Shifts to New Surveillance Vendor\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building for what was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, because of one meaty agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Resident after resident came to the mic during public comment …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/strong>Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Flock is a controversial surveillance company that runs AI-powered license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Battinich:\u003c/strong> I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On one side of the debate: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of privacy, and the security issues Flock has been exposed for.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Narayan: \u003c/strong>Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The budget meeting lasted hours — and in the end, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/strong>Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Since that April meeting, the Flock contract was extended in Alameda County again through the end of 2027 to the tune of $2.4 million. And it’s against this backdrop that listener Dennis Riley wrote in to Bay Curious…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen flock cameras all around the city, all around the Bay Area. .. there’s really no escape from them. I don’t really know what information they record. Um, how much I’m documented on camera.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He wants to know what Flock is doing with the information they record…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>Who are they selling it to? What are they recording? What is this information being used for? It really unsettles me how much I’m being tracked by private companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To answer this one we turn to Morgan Sung, a tech journalist and the host of KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast, who recently took on this topic…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> “Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The city took action around 2024. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Roselyn Romero: People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One huge concern for advocates is how Flock data is being shared. Reporter and Podcast Host Morgan Sung digs in on a scandal that broke out in Palo Alto.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/strong>[bangs gavel] We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert:\u003c/strong> So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED tech journalist Morgan Sung who reported on this for the Close All Tabs podcast, which she hosts. Their team includes Maya Cueva, Chris Egusa, Chris Hambrick and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Dennis Riley, for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Flock Safety automated license plate readers have proliferated across the Bay Area over the past several years. But as residents learn more about the type of data captured and how it can be used by law enforcement agencies across the country, pushback has grown. Proponents of the system say it helps make our streets safer. Opponents worry it violates our Fourth Amendment right to privacy. Morgan Sung from KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">dug into these questions\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Flock Safety automated license plate readers have proliferated across the Bay Area over the past several years. But as residents learn more about the type of data captured and how it can be used by law enforcement agencies across the country, pushback has grown. Proponents of the system say it helps make our streets safer. Opponents worry it violates our Fourth Amendment right to privacy. Morgan Sung from KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">dug into these questions\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"‘Get the Flock Out’: The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">‘Get the Flock Out’: The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n",
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"\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">‘Get the Flock Out’: The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building for what was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, because of one meaty agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building for what was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, because of one meaty agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Resident after resident came to the mic during public comment …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/strong>Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Resident after resident came to the mic during public comment …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/strong>Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Flock is a controversial surveillance company that runs AI-powered license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Flock is a controversial surveillance company that runs AI-powered license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Battinich:\u003c/strong> I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Battinich:\u003c/strong> I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On one side of the debate: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of privacy, and the security issues Flock has been exposed for.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Narayan: \u003c/strong>Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On one side of the debate: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of privacy, and the security issues Flock has been exposed for.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Narayan: \u003c/strong>Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The budget meeting lasted hours — and in the end, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The budget meeting lasted hours — and in the end, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/strong>Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/strong>Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Since that April meeting, the Flock contract was extended in Alameda County again through the end of 2027 to the tune of $2.4 million. And it’s against this backdrop that listener Dennis Riley wrote in to Bay Curious…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen flock cameras all around the city, all around the Bay Area. .. there’s really no escape from them. I don’t really know what information they record. Um, how much I’m documented on camera.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He wants to know what Flock is doing with the information they record…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Since that April meeting, the Flock contract was extended in Alameda County again through the end of 2027 to the tune of $2.4 million. And it’s against this backdrop that listener Dennis Riley wrote in to Bay Curious…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen flock cameras all around the city, all around the Bay Area. .. there’s really no escape from them. I don’t really know what information they record. Um, how much I’m documented on camera.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He wants to know what Flock is doing with the information they record…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>Who are they selling it to? What are they recording? What is this information being used for? It really unsettles me how much I’m being tracked by private companies.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>Who are they selling it to? What are they recording? What is this information being used for? It really unsettles me how much I’m being tracked by private companies.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To answer this one we turn to Morgan Sung, a tech journalist and the host of KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast, who recently took on this topic…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To answer this one we turn to Morgan Sung, a tech journalist and the host of KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast, who recently took on this topic…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> “Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> “Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The city took action around 2024. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The city took action around 2024. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Roselyn Romero: People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Roselyn Romero: People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One huge concern for advocates is how Flock data is being shared. Reporter and Podcast Host Morgan Sung digs in on a scandal that broke out in Palo Alto.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One huge concern for advocates is how Flock data is being shared. Reporter and Podcast Host Morgan Sung digs in on a scandal that broke out in Palo Alto.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/strong>[bangs gavel] We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/strong>[bangs gavel] We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert:\u003c/strong> So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert:\u003c/strong> So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED tech journalist Morgan Sung who reported on this for the Close All Tabs podcast, which she hosts. Their team includes Maya Cueva, Chris Egusa, Chris Hambrick and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED tech journalist Morgan Sung who reported on this for the Close All Tabs podcast, which she hosts. Their team includes Maya Cueva, Chris Egusa, Chris Hambrick and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks to Dennis Riley, for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks to Dennis Riley, for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>Flock Safety automated license plate readers have proliferated across the Bay Area over the past several years. But as residents learn more about the type of data captured and how it can be used by law enforcement agencies across the country, pushback has grown. Proponents of the system say it helps make our streets safer. Opponents worry it violates our Fourth Amendment right to privacy. Morgan Sung from KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">dug into these questions\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC1473065417&light=true\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Further Reading:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cul class=\"wp-block-list\">\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12090103/get-the-flock-out-the-heated-debate-over-license-plate-readers\">‘Get the Flock Out’: The Fight Over License-Plate Readers Heats Up\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12088076/san-francisco-police-audit-shows-feds-accessed-license-plate-data-hundreds-of-times\">San Francisco Police Audit Shows Feds ‘Improperly’ Accessed License Plate Data Hundreds of Times\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\n\n\n\u003cli>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12094101/stanford-cuts-ties-with-flock-safety-shifts-to-new-surveillance-vendor\">Stanford Cuts Ties With Flock Safety, Shifts to New Surveillance Vendor\u003c/a>\u003c/li>\n\u003c/ul>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Episode Transcript:\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>In April, Bay Area residents crowded into the downtown Oakland Administration building for what was supposed to be a routine budget meeting for the Alameda County Board of Supervisors. But it was unusually packed, because of one meaty agenda item: approving a contract extension for Flock Safety cameras. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Resident after resident came to the mic during public comment …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Bay Area Resident: \u003c/strong>Having Flock cameras will not keep us safe. These cameras will go up in the neighborhoods where people of color live and we can be damn sure that this information will be taken by the feds and shared with ICE.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Flock is a controversial surveillance company that runs AI-powered license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Robert Battinich:\u003c/strong> I own property in San Leandro and I’ve been robbed 24 times. Recently, they put Flock cameras in San Leandro, and it seems to be that they haven’t been breaking in. So, please vote “yes” on renewing the contract with the Flock cameras. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>On one side of the debate: law enforcement and their supporters, who say the cameras reduce crime and improve public safety. On the other: residents and advocates who are concerned about a creeping surveillance state, an erosion of privacy, and the security issues Flock has been exposed for.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Narayan: \u003c/strong>Good evening. I urge you to reject Flock’s $854,000 contract extension. This isn’t a camera system, it’s a mass surveillance network. You guys say you care about immigrant communities, but this system puts them directly in danger. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The budget meeting lasted hours — and in the end, the board of supervisors voted 3-2 in favor of extending the contract. Protests broke out. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: \u003c/strong>Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Olivia Allen-Price: Since that April meeting, the Flock contract was extended in Alameda County again through the end of 2027 to the tune of $2.4 million. And it’s against this backdrop that listener Dennis Riley wrote in to Bay Curious…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen flock cameras all around the city, all around the Bay Area. .. there’s really no escape from them. I don’t really know what information they record. Um, how much I’m documented on camera.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>He wants to know what Flock is doing with the information they record…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Dennis Riley: \u003c/strong>Who are they selling it to? What are they recording? What is this information being used for? It really unsettles me how much I’m being tracked by private companies.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>To answer this one we turn to Morgan Sung, a tech journalist and the host of KQED’s Close All Tabs podcast, who recently took on this topic…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Automated license plate readers, or ALPRs, have been rapidly rolled out by cities and communities around the country, with Flock Safety’s tech at the lead. Before we get any deeper into this, we need to talk about what Flock actually is — and how it was adopted so quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Let’s get into the origin story. So, Flock Safety is based in Atlanta, Georgia. It operates a whole host of surveillance devices: cameras, drones, and, importantly, for this story, ALPRs. Back in 2017, this Georgia Tech alum, Garrett Langley, noticed the uptake in break-ins around his Atlanta neighborhood. Police told him that grainy surveillance camera footage was actually unhelpful, and what they really needed to find perpetrators were license plates.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, Garrett called up two of his college buddies. Together, they worked on a prototype camera that could record and share what he called “evidence,” not just footage. Here he is speaking to Forbes last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Yeah, it’s pretty wild. At the end of ’17, we were sitting at my dining room table in Atlanta, building cameras by hand. And now, today, we’re in a roughly 100,000 square foot facility building cameras, building trailers, building drones — all right here in Georgia, which is pretty fun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> “Fun” is certainly one way to put it. This entrepreneurial, neighborly concern has grown into an operation of at least 90,000 cameras nationwide, scanning over 20 billion license plates per month. Over 1,000 private businesses have also installed the cameras, adding to Flock’s massive surveillance database.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In Oakland, the push for installing Flock’s ALPRs was fueled by local frustration over BIP-ing — you know, breaking into a parked car and looting whatever’s inside. Here’s Roselyn Romero, a reporter for the independent local news outlet, The Oaklandside. She’s been covering Flock Safety cameras for the region. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>BIP-ing, or car break-ins, were also understandably making a lot of residents angry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The city took action around 2024. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The Oakland Police Department eventually signed a contract with Flock Safety for cameras to be installed throughout the city, primarily on freeway entrances and exits. And right now, today, there are 293 Flock cameras in Oakland — specifically, automated license plate readers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Flock’s ALPRs go way further than the standard traffic cam that tickets drivers for speeding. The cameras automatically capture the license plate of every car that drives by — as well as 6 to 12 images of other identifying information. All of this is used to create what Flock calls: a vehicle fingerprint. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> The make and the model of that vehicle, if there is a scrape on the bumper, or if there are bumper stickers on the car — Flock keeps a database of all of that information of every car that passes by the ALPRs. And that database can be used by the law enforcement agencies that contract with Flock to investigate crimes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock will send officers alerts when a camera captures a vehicle that’s been marked stolen or wanted. Or, the police can search the database to trace a specific vehicle’s movements across the country. Car break-ins in San Francisco have plummeted since 2023.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But whether Flock has any part in that is dubious. The city started cracking down on car break-ins long before it adopted Flock cameras. Still, supporters say that Flock is necessary to prevent crime and catch those who do it. Now, the company says its devices are not equipped to track individual people — but recent expansions have residents concerned. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock also has cameras that are called pan, tilt, and zoom cameras. Those cameras, which are currently being used by the Alameda County Sheriff’s Office, can be used to track pedestrians in addition to vehicles. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> All of the data collected by Flock cameras around the country is shared and stored in a massive aggregated database, which can be accessed by anyone in the network. That means that police in Texas can hunt a woman who travels out of state for an abortion, or that ICE agents can ask local police in Illinois to track undocumented families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both of these scenarios are real. They’ve already happened. Privacy activists and civil liberties groups are especially worried. Given the Trump administration’s recent immigration crackdown. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Roselyn Romero: People are scared — even putting Flock cameras aside, many immigrants are afraid of immigration enforcement knocking on their doors. We’re hearing a lot of newly arrived immigrants, refugee and asylum seekers, and other vulnerable populations say that they don’t even want to go outside anymore. They don’t even want to go grocery shopping or send their children to school because they’re afraid of ICE coming in and taking them away from their families.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’ve been seeing reports of law enforcement agencies and police departments in places outside of California that have shared data with Border Patrol, with U.S. Customs and Immigration Enforcement, and other federal law enforcement agencies that deal with deporting people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so a lot of people are understandably afraid. And really concerned about, well, if this technology is continued here in Alameda County, who’s to say that that data is gonna end up in the wrong hands? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A big part of the concern is around data privacy. Flock says it deletes all the information after 30 days. But the company isn’t very transparent about how they handle all of this data. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> There have been a lot of concerns from community members I’ve interviewed who say, you know, even if this data is stored in this database for 30 days, what happens after those 30 days? There have just been a whole host of concerns about the type of data that is stored, for how long it’s stored, and who has access to that data before and after it’s retained. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Flock also says all of this data, and their camera feeds, are encrypted. These assurances fall flat, though. Around the U.S., amateur hackers have been able to get around the company’s security systems. Tech YouTuber Benn Jordan explained how he did it in a video posted last year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> You may remember me from this video, where I told you about 40,000 of these things that your tax dollars pay for that are tracking your every move and repurposing data collected about you every time that you drive past them. Upon further investigation, it turns out that there are over 80,000 of them — and, um, we got some, and we hacked them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>With the help of a cybersecurity expert, Benn was able to hack Flock safety cameras in a whopping 30 seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]:\u003c/strong> First thing you’re going to want to do is go ahead and press the button to turn on that police camera. Then press the button on the back a number of times I can’t disclose in this video. There she is: the Flock wireless access point. Go on and connect. Send a command to enable ADB. Connect. And now you can connect to the Flock Safety device and access its data. Or install whatever the hell you want on it. Have fun! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Apparently, hacking a Flock camera really is that easy. At least, it was when that video was published. And once you’re in, there’s a lot you can do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip from @BennJordan on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>You can clone or decompile the apps. You could send the video stream data to a remote server. You could use it as a botnet client for malware. You could have it capture Wi-Fi handshake credentials and do middleman or honeypot attacks — or replace or modify captured footage or images. And if that is the case, this could bring into question the integrity of the data being used as admissible evidence in court, like, in general. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When these cameras can be hacked and used to spy on people or watch kids, watch everyday people, it really makes you think: how comfortable are we with this type of mass surveillance in our communities? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In a follow-up video, Benn showed how easy it was to find the control panels for Flock’s cameras. 404 Media confirmed that at least 60 of Flock’s Condor cameras — the ones that can pan, zoom, and tilt — were left unsecured on the open internet. That means that the live streams and administrator panels could be accessed by anyone with the right link — no login credentials needed. With the panels, anyone could download 30 days of archive footage, manually control the cameras, and run diagnostics.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, if Flock cameras can be easily hacked or are left totally unsecured, what does it mean for the troves of data? All the photos, the live feeds, the vehicle fingerprints that are stored on Flock’s cloud servers — how is this data being used, authorized or not? Who can access it? That’s a new tab: How is Flock being misused? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>There have been a lot of red flags raised by privacy experts and technology experts who say that Flock doesn’t have enough data privacy safeguards to protect itself from liability, as well as protect community members who may be vulnerable to civil immigration enforcement, or enforcement as it relates to seeking abortions or reproductive health care in states where it’s illegal. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>There have been reports of law enforcement using Flock data for both of these purposes — as well as more… personal uses. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>We’ve seen reports from other parts of the country where police officers have used Flock’s database to track down their ex-girlfriends and stalk them. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> A Wisconsin cop used Flock to stalk his ex-girlfriend and her partner. He submitted 179 database searches for their license plates. In fact, multiple officers have been accused of using Flock’s database to stalk romantic interests — there are at least 21 reported incidents of this in recent years. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, even though we have Flock and law enforcement saying one thing about Flock cameras’ original intent and purpose, there’s always the potential for something to happen where this technology is used beyond its original intent. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And that’s all assuming that technology is working correctly. What if Flock’s vehicle fingerprint is wrong? Just a few months ago, police stopped a 62-year-old woman in Oakland who was driving to her job at a nursing home. Flock had connected her plates to a “serious crime.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> So, she exited the vehicle with her hands up, her car registration was in her hand, and she saw these sheriff’s deputies pointing their guns at her — and she was really confused.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And so, eventually the sheriff’s deputies told her, “Oh, you might not be the suspect we’re looking for because the license plate reader tracked down your license plate. And we essentially connected your license plate number to a crime that had been committed not that long ago.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> What the woman didn’t know was that her plates had been stolen, and replaced with the ones associated with the crime. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>She came to the realization, “I’m being treated like I’m a violent criminal.” That could have gone so much worse than it did, right? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>But here’s the thing: Flock flagged a black Honda Civic. This woman drove a silver car. Flock’s “vehicle fingerprint” is supposed to be holistic, taking into account way more details about a car than just its license plates. Were these other details checked before officers made the stop? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> It opens up this scary question of: can this happen to me? Can this happen to someone I love, someone I know — completely unsuspecting — who may have had their license plate stolen?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And here’s another issue with this technology: racial bias. Black and Brown communities are already more likely to be overpoliced and are disproportionately targeted for traffic stops. The existing bias is evident in Flock’s search records — law enforcement officials still use racist and derogatory language when they search through Flock’s ALPR database.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as one study showed, Flock Safety cameras have been found to surveil predominantly Black communities more intensely than white ones. In Virginia’s Hampton Roads area, neighborhoods where at least 50% of residents are Black have four times the number of Flock cameras as majority-white neighborhoods. One of the highest concentrations of cameras is around the only HBCU in the area. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In neighborhoods where Black and Brown people are already overly policed, overly surveilled, and overly criminalized, these cameras can play a big role in terms of the types of enforcement actions police take against these communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And, the company has been long-resistant to efforts to track and log its devices, like in the case of a project called DeFlock. It’s an open-source, community-run tool that identifies and maps the locations of Flock’s cameras. Flock CEO and Co-Founder Garrett Langley is not a fan. Here he is speaking to Forbes again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>[Clip of Garrett’s interview with @Forbes on YouTube]: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, there’s terroristic organizations like DeFlock, whose primary motivation is chaos. They are closer to Antifa than they are anything else. And that, I think, is unfortunate — because we don’t want chaos, or I don’t want chaos. I like law and order, I like a society that has a bedrock of safety. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> That interview is from September of last year. A few months later, he sent an unsolicited email to all Flock law enforcement clients. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>And in that email, the CEO attacked activist groups who were against Flock. He said that they wanted to normalize lawlessness and let murderers go free. The CEO also called these activists, quote, “terrorists.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This prompted the city of Staunton, Virginia, as well as several others, to officially terminate their contracts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> And in a press release, the police chief of Staunton, Virginia, basically was like, “We will not tolerate this type of rhetoric.” They said, quote, “The city of Staunton wants to make it clear that the Flock Safety CEO’s narrative does not reflect the city’s values.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Langley’s comments also came amid intense debate over local police sharing Flock data with ICE, which is a violation of city policy in some places. Altogether, it was a PR disaster. As of March, at least 30 localities have canceled their contracts with Flock, or deactivated the ALPRs. The city of Dayton, Ohio is still deciding whether to turn off their cameras — so, while they deliberate, they covered them up with trash bags.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite all the vocal opposition, Flock has a lot of support from businesses looking to improve public safety around their buildings — whether it’s private companies trying to protect employees in downtown corporate offices, or mom-and-pop shops trying to protect their storefronts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero: \u003c/strong>Flock Safety cameras have been used by many business leaders and commercial districts throughout the Bay Area to address crime, prevent crime, track down people who may have broken into restaurants, vandalized businesses. So there’s just been a lot of support from large corporations, in addition to local business leaders, who argue that Flock cameras have actually been a really good thing for business, and for the safety of their employees, and customers. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> But residents are becoming more vocal about their distrust in Flock — in part, because it’s unclear who exactly has access to Flock’s data once it’s collected. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Who’s to say that these law enforcement agencies from other states can also use data from California law enforcement agencies? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> How far is this data being shared? Is Flock breaking local laws? One reporter in Palo Alto uncovered a slew of Flock search requests that violated the city’s own policies. We’re getting into that after this break.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>One huge concern for advocates is how Flock data is being shared. Reporter and Podcast Host Morgan Sung digs in on a scandal that broke out in Palo Alto.\u003cbr>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> People were just as fired up about a pickleball debate a couple of weeks ago in Palo Alto — so there are certain issues that definitely get people to turn out, whether it’s converting a pickleball court or, you know, cameras that are watching your every move when you’re moving about the city. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>Riley Cooke is a City Hall reporter at Palo Alto Weekly. Earlier this year, a publication in nearby Mountain View had discovered that the city’s Flock data had been accessed by a slew of outside entities. Riley wanted to find out if the same thing was happening in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So what I did is I filed a records request for these search audits that Flock and the police department maintain. So, every time a search is conducted, whether by a local officer or by an out-of-state agency, or outside agency at all into Palo Alto — that’s logged in a giant spreadsheet with the time, the date, and the reason for the search. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The request was approved, but at first, the police chief didn’t hand over the specific documents that Riley was looking for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> So, I reopened the request and said, “Hey, I actually want these spreadsheets.” And eventually they gave them to me in March. And my editor was- he was out on some, like, coffee chat with a source, and so I was blowing up his texts, like, “We got the ALPR records, we’ve got them.” And it’s thousands and thousands of pages that detail every single search: the time, the date, who conducted it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The search records revealed that police departments from all over the country were also searching Palo Alto’s Flock data, without the permission of the city, or the Palo Alto Police Department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> The police department told me that they didn’t actually access any of the data or download it, but Palo Alto’s cameras still appeared in search results from, you know, Mississippi, Illinois — basically all 50 states, including some federal agencies, such as the ATF. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>ATF is short for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. Riley’s reporting shows that, for about a year and a half, tens of thousands of searches from outside agencies were performed in Palo Alto. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> I think my hope with doing that was to sort of beg the question of: what do these agencies have anything to do with Palo Alto? Or why is Palo Alto’s ALPR data appearing in search results by, you know, police departments from halfway across the country? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> This is actually super illegal. California law prohibits the sharing of ALPR data with out-of-state and federal agencies — and this has been the case since 2016. The Palo Alto Police Department told Riley that they didn’t know the city had been opted into the national lookup feature. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> And, they went above and beyond existing California law about not sharing with any out-of-state or federal agencies. And, what my reporting shows is that Flock was still able to bypass those without telling anybody. They didn’t tell the police department, they didn’t tell city officials, they just quietly rolled out this nationwide data-sharing effort, which completely went past local and California regulations.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I think city officials were really confident at first that they had enacted these protections, that they were protecting residents and heeding those surveillance concerns. And yet, at the end of the day, the company still did what they wanted to do. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> It begs the question: why did Flock bypass the police department and make this data available nationwide? And what is the point of privacy protections if Flock can just access the data and share it anyway? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> Recently there’s been hundreds of people turning out to city government meetings to protest the Flock contract and urging Palo Alto to do what neighboring cities have done, which is to shut down the cameras or terminate their contract with Flock. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Now, thanks to Riley’s reporting, the Palo Alto Police Department is proactively sharing license plate search logs on its website. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke: \u003c/strong>So, everyone’s able to go and find that information on their own, and can verify that no out-of-state or illegal searches are being performed. I don’t know any other city that’s currently doing that by practically publishing those, so I think that’s pretty cool. And Palo Alto is also auditing its Flock contract. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> The consulting firm in charge of the Flock audit — called the OIR Group — has managed to hold Palo Alto’s cops accountable in the past — like standardizing bodycam usage. Will these data protections do anything, though? Riley says that residents are concerned that Flock could easily disregard them and go over the city again, like it did in Mountain View. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Riley Cooke:\u003c/strong> They don’t like that they were lied to. And so, I think a lot of residents had their suspicions about this, couldn’t exactly confirm that it was happening in Palo Alto, and my reporting was just — again, that confirmation that they were looking for. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Riley said the Palo Alto Police Department will probably listen to resident demands for greater transparency around Flock. But, even if the city gets rid of Flock cameras, law enforcement will likely still use ALPRs. If not Flock’s, then another company’s. There’s nationwide pushback against Flock — are these community efforts going anywhere though? Let’s open one last tab: can Flock be stopped?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We’re heading back to Alameda County, where Oakland is partnering with Flock to operate nearly 300 ALPRs throughout the city. But organizers remain committed to protesting the contracts. Roselyn Romero, the Oaklandside reporter from earlier, pointed out that Alameda County has a history of social movements. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> Because of Alameda County’s location, situated where all of these technological and AI advancements are originated, and the fact that Alameda County is home to many social justice movements over the years — I’m thinking about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of these social justice movements, racial justice movements, and activists are also on the side of: we shouldn’t have Flock in our communities, and why are we continuing to expand these sorts of police technologies in our neighborhoods, when there are already so many community members who are vulnerable and afraid?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So I think it speaks to this crucial moment in Alameda County of: everybody agrees that Flock Safety’s cameras are really powerful. It’s just- now, the debate is: what to use that power for, how comfortable we are with that power, and where we see our society going with this type of powerful tool in our communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> In California, organizers have actually made real progress in stopping Flock — or getting it removed. Santa Cruz was the first city to turn off its cameras. Mountain View, South Pasadena, El Cerrito, Campbell, Oxnard, and other California cities followed. And, like we talked about earlier, some residents have taken matters into their own hands. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> In Oakland, we’ve seen people paintbombing these Flock cameras, where cameras in Oakland have just been splashed with paint and vandalized, if you will. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> And beyond the concerns about Flock’s capabilities, the company’s services are expensive. Flock contracts add up to millions of dollars. And this has many residents questioning how else this funding could be used. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> When crime is at near historic lows, why are we continuing to put more money and more power into these powerful technologies? Right now, the Oakland City Council is debating its budget for the next fiscal year. And, we’re seeing all of these programs for violence prevention and for other community events being cut.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A lot of community members are saying, “Why are we continuing to invest in police technologies and surveillance tools when we could instead allocate that money toward, say, health care or childhood education — early childhood education — more social programs for people who really need it during the summertime, or homelessness services?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a really interesting and seemingly endless debate that we’re seeing in Oakland and Alameda County and across the country. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert: \u003c/strong>[bangs gavel] We have to take a vote on this. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Back in April, at the Alameda Board of Supervisors meeting, the board voted in favor of extending the Flock contract until July 1st. That’s despite the vocal pushback from residents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[Protesters outside of budget meeting]: Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! Get Flock off our block! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Last Tuesday — the day before the contract expired —the Alameda Board of Supervisors once again voted to extend Flock’s contract… This time, until the end of next year. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Alameda County Supervisor David Haubert:\u003c/strong> So that motion passes. We’re not entertaining comments from the gallery. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung:\u003c/strong> Once that’s up, the County Sheriff’s Office will have the opportunity to look for alternative vendors: surveillance tech companies that offer the same services as Flock. There are about a dozen or so competitors that could replace Flock cameras.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So, even if the board votes to end its contract, this larger question still exists: Does mass surveillance of people who aren’t suspected of a crime violate their Fourth Amendment right to privacy? Is that worth giving up in the name of public safety? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Roselyn Romero:\u003c/strong> This debate is not unique to the Bay Area. We’re seeing — at the federal level — President Donald Trump’s mass deportation agenda playing out in full force. What does that say about the type of surveillance, technology, and society that we want to have here in the Bay Area? What does that say about the types of companies and values we want to support and continue funding, not just at the national level, but even here, in our own communities. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Morgan Sung: \u003c/strong>This debate gets at the heart of the right to privacy, guaranteed by the Constitution, but chipped away at every year. Communities across the country have made it clear that they oppose the partnerships between surveillance tech companies and the government. Will city leaders listen? Who knows? But paintbombing Flock cameras is a growing trend. And, as we’ve seen from other incidents across the country, people will find alternative — and creative —ways to make their anger heard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED tech journalist Morgan Sung who reported on this for the Close All Tabs podcast, which she hosts. Their team includes Maya Cueva, Chris Egusa, Chris Hambrick and Brendan Willard.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Dennis Riley, for asking this week’s question.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is produced in SF at member-supported KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED Podcast team are represented by the Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco, Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-san-francisco-rock-climbing-spot-known-for-its-shiny-surface",
"title": "The San Francisco Rock Climbing Spot Known For Its Shiny Surface",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1500\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1500px) 100vw, 1500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley. ((Courtesy Jordan Schultz))\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It takes me a moment to “see” it the way Jordan does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Whether you’re a seasoned mountaineer, or a new climber, like Ravi, a neighborhood rock can feel just as magical as Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What’d you think of that glass section in the middle there? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> The glass section was definitely interesting. That was wild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think? Should we, uh, pull these ropes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds or rope falling from a great height\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Boom. That’s it. That’s the sound of the end of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Classical music plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>That song is the perfect soundtrack. Was that your cellphone?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to us by KQED reporter Francesca Fenzi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve got two requests for you on our way out. First, Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and VOTE in our public voting round to help us decide what story we should tackle next. All it takes is a few seconds and one click.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Second, consider becoming a member of KQED and supporting Bay Curious. We are relying more on listener donations than we have in the past and every dollar helps us to keep bringing you stories like this one. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> to get started.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "A visible record of Bay Area geology",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "How a Berkeley park changed climbing history",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n"
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{
"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "A safer way to fall",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/heading",
"attrs": {
"text": "The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"imageCredit": "(Courtesy Jordan Schultz)",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"\n[baycuriousquestion]\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It takes me a moment to “see” it the way Jordan does.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It takes me a moment to “see” it the way Jordan does.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Whether you’re a seasoned mountaineer, or a new climber, like Ravi, a neighborhood rock can feel just as magical as Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What’d you think of that glass section in the middle there? \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> The glass section was definitely interesting. That was wild. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think? Should we, uh, pull these ropes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds or rope falling from a great height\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Boom. That’s it. That’s the sound of the end of it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Classical music plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>That song is the perfect soundtrack. Was that your cellphone?\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to us by KQED reporter Francesca Fenzi.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’ve got two requests for you on our way out. First, Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and VOTE in our public voting round to help us decide what story we should tackle next. All it takes is a few seconds and one click.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Second, consider becoming a member of KQED and supporting Bay Curious. We are relying more on listener donations than we have in the past and every dollar helps us to keep bringing you stories like this one. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> to get started.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Beaver Street’s shiny slab isn’t just a geologic curiosity — it’s part of a long legacy for Bay Area climbers who have used city rocks and buildings to train for the heights of Yosemite Valley.",
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"title": "The San Francisco Rock Climbing Spot Known For Its Shiny Surface | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#transcript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco\">San Francisco’s\u003c/a> Beaver Street is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill toward Corona Heights, a few blocks from the Castro Theater.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tucked into the curve of this tiny street is a narrow park, and inside it, a 60-foot slab of rock that towers over a public playground. The rock is streaked with diagonal bands of red and tan that make it look almost like a slice of bacon — with a surface unlike any rock Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar had seen.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar first stumbled across the \u003ca href=\"https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105733887/beaver-street-wall\">Beaver Street rock wall\u003c/a> during a weekend outing with his daughters, to the Randall Museum of Science in Corona Heights Park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1500\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12093864\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-160x120.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-3-KQED-1536x1152.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Max Stewart belays Ravi Bhoraskar as he climbs the Beaver Street wall in San Francisco’s Corona Heights Park. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He described it as a “shiny, almost slippery-looking surface” with a few sparse holes “that you can potentially use to climb on.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The secluded crag felt like a revelation. He recently started rock climbing, and climbs weekly at his neighborhood gym in the Mission.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I was excited to learn that there is at least one [outdoor] climbing spot within the city, easily reachable by bus,” Bhoraskar said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A visible record of Bay Area geology\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bhoraskar’s first clue to the origins of the Beaver Street rock came from a sign posted at its base. Known as a “slickenside,” the sign explained: “This smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside is a type of rock that forms along fault lines, like the San Andreas Fault that slashes diagonally across San Francisco. When two rocks on either side of the fault rub against each other, the friction between them can generate heat and super-fine particles of dust. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That dust acts like a lubricant, polishing the rock surface until it becomes glassy and smooth, just like the rock on Beaver Street. The colorful stripes on a slickenside formation even record the direction the rocks were moving, allowing geologists to track the movement of different faults across time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094715\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-06-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">The Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the City of San Francisco’s posted signage, the rock wall on Beaver Street is thought to be one of the largest exposed slickenside formations in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This sign also serves as a reminder of a \u003ca href=\"https://www.facebook.com/savebsw/\">small municipal battle over access to the rock\u003c/a>. In 2014, the city instituted a permitting process for climbers hoping to scale the slick stone wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Francisco climbers protested and eventually persuaded the city to drop the permits — on the condition that local climbing groups and the signage at Beaver Street emphasized a “leave no trace” policy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">How a Berkeley park changed climbing history\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rock on Beaver Street is one of a handful of outdoor climbing areas in San Francisco proper, but across the bay in the Berkeley Hills sits another city park where climbers have pushed the sport forward for nearly a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://berkeleyca.gov/community-recreation/parks-recreation/parks/indian-rock-park\">Indian Rock Park\u003c/a> encompasses a collection of volcanic boulders in the hills overlooking the UC Berkeley campus. Long a \u003ca href=\"https://sogoreate-landtrust.org/slt_resources/indian-rock/\">place of significance to Ohlone people\u003c/a>, these boulders have also played an outsized role in the Bay Area’s climbing history. John Sherman remembers getting introduced to the sport here in the 1970s, when he was a student at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Well, it’s kind of a funny story,” Sherman said. “Some friends and I scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1500\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"A man in orange shirt and grey pants wearing a helmet and rock climbing shoes climbs a rock wall.\" class=\"wp-image-12093866\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED.jpg 1500w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-160x213.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/BeaverStreetClimbing_FF-5-KQED-1152x1536.jpg 1152w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1500px) 100vw, 1500px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ravi Bhoraskar climbs the Beaver Street wall, his first outdoor climbing experience. (Francesca Fenzi/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>A friend suggested that they take their contraband to Indian Rock Park. While they were sitting on the steps enjoying these illicit beverages, Sherman noticed people scrambling on the rocks nearby, practicing gymnastic moves just a few feet off the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself,” he said. He came back a few days later, blundering his way through the first of many bouldering climbs in what would become his 50-year love affair with rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since,” Sherman said. Bay Area climbers might recognize Sherman by his nickname: Verm, short for Vermin.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Verm would go on to become one of the pioneers of a relatively new style of climbing, called bouldering, where climbers perform ambitious, gymnastic moves with no ropes — all while staying relatively close to the ground.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just because bouldering involves less consequential falls than those taken by climbers on California’s soaring cliff faces, doesn’t mean falling off a boulder didn’t hurt.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“We took a real beating back in those days,” Sherman explained of his early bouldering experiments at Indian Rock. “There weren’t that many people, like myself, who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.climbinggold.com/voices/john-sherman\">Sherman is now a climbing legend\u003c/a> within the Bay Area and beyond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was the first person to scale and document hundreds of new routes in a now-esteemed bouldering area in Texas, called \u003ca href=\"https://tpwd.texas.gov/state-parks/hueco-tanks/activities/#rock-climbing\">Hueco Tanks\u003c/a>, and he \u003ca href=\"https://www.climbing.com/gear/crash-pads-safety-changed-bouldering-forever/\">helped to invent the “crash pads” that boulderers use to cushion their falls\u003c/a> today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But his most recognizable contribution to the Bay Area’s climbing culture is one that Sherman doesn’t like to talk about. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094719\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-14-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">A view of the skyline from the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He invented a system to grade the difficulty of bouldering climbs, dubbed the \u003ca href=\"https://rockclimbingrealms.com/bouldering-grades-explained/\">“V grading system” \u003c/a>— as in, the Vermin grading system. This is a system now widely used by climbing gyms, which rates the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up numerically (V1, V2, V3 and so on) as the difficulty increases.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman said he dislikes how fixated other climbers have become with his grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience,” he said. He described the “nutrition” of the climbing experience as being all the things that make climbing worthwhile: the camaraderie, the “kinesthetic flow of the movement” and a communion with nature.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then what happens afterwards?” he said. “Out pops a V grade.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">A safer way to fall\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Sherman prefers to think of himself as part of a long lineage of Bay Area climbers who have sharpened their skills on the urban rock faces available to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At Indian Rock, for example, a group of Berkeley law students and mountaineers were \u003ca href=\"https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/12/07/rock-climbing-indian-rock-mortar-rock\">preparing for ascents in Yosemite Valley as early as the 1930s\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Mountain climbing at the time was extraordinarily dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward, and the safety equipment didn’t really work. Climbers used ropes made of hemp — stiff, dry, and prone to snapping if pulled too quickly. Most people assumed a fall on a climbing route was fatal.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The rope’s gonna break, and that’s it, you know?” Sherman said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094716\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260810-BeaverStreetPortraits-09-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">An anchor chain at the top of the Beaver Street Wall in Corona Heights Park in San Francisco on Aug. 10, 2026. The rock wall is open to climbing and is primarily used for top-rope climbing. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the Berkeley students climbing at Indian Rock developed a counterintuitive idea to change that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The solution was all in how climbers handled the rope. If a belayer let the rope run through their hands and slowly absorbed the force of a fall, the rope was far less likely to snap — and could actually catch a falling climber without killing them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers began practicing these controlled, “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock, and they carried the life-saving technique with them to Yosemite. \u003ca href=\"https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/nylon-a-revolution-in-textiles/\">By the 1940s, nylon was commercially accessible\u003c/a>, and climbers began making stronger, more shock-absorbent ropes from it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer,” Sherman said. “The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Falling was no longer a death sentence, and the sport became more popular as a result. As new tools and techniques made climbing safer, the goals of the sport shifted too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Style was more important than difficulty, and you were more respected if you could walk up to a climb and climb it without falling … just figuring it out,” Sherman said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>By the 1960s, climbing was no longer just about the summit — it was about finding a creative way up each rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The secret climbs on University of California, Berkeley campus\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers still wanted to test themselves on big routes in Yosemite and Joshua Tree, but the Bay Area’s natural geology was limited, and climbing gyms weren’t yet common. So climbers had to look for training grounds in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Jordan Schultz is the kind of climber who sees potential everywhere — even across the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s cataloged hundreds of “buildering” routes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I think I listed, like, 300-plus routes just on campus,” Schultz said. “Pretty much every building is climbable, is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12094710\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/08/260811-BEAVER-STREET-CLIMBING-01-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">From left to right, climbers Ace Landauer, Jordan Schultz, Tilly Holtz and Colin Wills hang from cracks in the “penny wall,” a spot on the UC Berkeley campus where rock climbers practice crack climbing techniques required for climbs in Yosemite Valley. ((Courtesy Jordan Schultz))\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Schultz documented these routes — and the history behind them — in his guidebook, \u003ca href=\"https://campusingbook.com\">\u003cem>Campusing: A Secret History and Buildering Guide to UC Berkeley\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003cem>. \u003c/em>One of the university’s most famous unofficial routes is a crack running up the side of a brick building that houses the chemistry department.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it,” Schultz said. “I think that’s the beautiful part about it. You need to open your eyes to it, you know?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers have used this crack to practice technique since at least the 1960s, Schultz said, because it mirrors the kind of crack climbing common in Yosemite and other parts of the Sierra.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The spot has another name, too: the Penny Wall. According to Schultz, back in the 1960s, climbers practicing at the crack would stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach — a marker and quiet challenge to whoever climbed the crack next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman honed his own crack-climbing technique on the Penny Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And as much as the Bay Area’s outdoor climbing sites have been the home of real breakthroughs in the sport of climbing, he said their true value is in the community of climbers that are drawn to them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbing something like the rock on Beaver Street, tucked into the corner of a busy city, can still feel like being let in on a local secret — passed down by generations of climbers who have left something behind for the next adventurous climber: a penny, a piece of gear, or simply a tip to help newcomers navigate a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“When you do go to these little areas, and make the effort to meet the locals [climbing there], the experience is so much richer,” Sherman said. “It doesn’t have to be Yosemite to give you a climbing experience and a community to hang out with.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price and you’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When I was about six months pregnant with my first child, a friend of a friend passed along a maternity climbing harness … a full body nylon contraption that allows pregnant people to keep rock climbing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, I was not a rock climber at the time, but thought — “hey, why not? A lot of other activities I love, like running, have gotten really hard, but my legs are stronger than ever. Let’s climb!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon I found myself halfway up a wall in Pinnacles National Park … having a blast, but also hearing the voice of my mother inside my head: \u003cem>“Oh, Olivia. You would.”\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To be honest, my stint with rock climbing was relatively short, but I was into it long enough to hit up most of the bigger climbing areas in the Bay Area. And I learned you don’t have to drive all the way to Yosemite to feel the thrill of scaling a cliff. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There are a handful of urban climbing areas you might have walked past without a second look.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Ravi Bhoraskar [[boh-RAHS-car]] stumbled across one of those hidden rock walls … tucked into the hills of San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It looked to me like a residential street. A bunch of cute houses, \u003cs>uh,\u003c/s> and, like, a little narrow path in the middle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Beaver Street itself is just two blocks long. It climbs from Castro Street up a steep hill towards Corona Heights. The Castro Theater is just a few blocks away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And tucked into the curve of Beaver Street is a narrow park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>And as you come in, you get this giant piece of shiny rock, which is the Beaver Street Wall. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This big slab of rock towers 60 feet above a kids’ playground. It’s got these diagonal streaks of red and tan rock that honestly make it look almost like a slice of bacon. And it has an unusual texture…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s kind of like a shiny, almost slippery-looking surface, with some holes that you can potentially use to climb on.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This interested Ravi because he recently got into rock climbing. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Mostly indoors at the climbing gym. I was excited to learn that there is, like, at least one climbing spot right within the city, like, easily reachable by bus.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And he wants to know … what is that slippery, striped bacon rock?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>How did it end up there, and why does it look so cool?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And most importantly…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>Like, can I climb it?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Today we’re going to get answers for Ravi, of course. But we’ll also explore how Bay Area climbers have used city parks to practice their skills for decades — and ultimately push the sport forward. Turns out there’s a lot of rock climbing history anchored right here in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED producer Francesca Fenzi headed to Beaver Street with Ravi … to check out this unusual rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Birds singing, slight traffic sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> Ravi and I arrive at Corona Heights Park on a sunny weekend afternoon. We can hear birds singing … and the faint sound of traffic from Market Street carrying up the hill.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s a playground, a dense pocket of trees, and then … this glistening rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar: \u003c/strong>It’s not wet, but it \u003cem>looks\u003c/em> wet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The shiny surface is interrupted by a single jagged crack, which runs about six stories high. And at the base of the rock is a sign … which gives us a clue about how it got here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Known as a slickenslide, this smooth rock face was once inside a fault. Its surface was polished by millions of years of geological activity.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It’s Slicken SIDE actually. Try saying that three times fast! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Slickenside forms when two rocks inside a fault rub against each other. Imagine pressing your hands together as hard as you can and then sliding them back and forth. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>That friction creates heat — and tiny dust particles which act like a fluid — to polish the rock until it looks glassy and smooth. Just like the wall at Beaver Street. The colorful stripes even show the direction the fault was moving when a Slickenside was formed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>According to the sign, this rock is thought to be one of the largest exposed Slickenside formations in the world. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Capitals, “Please do not chip holes in the rock face or alter the rock in any way.” And then it’s taped over Um, climbing on these rocks is by permit only. To obtain a permit, call some number.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I looked into getting a permit and it turns out you no longer need one to climb at Beaver Street. So Ravi is going to try to climb it today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And to make sure we don’t damage the rock, we’ve enlisted some help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Hey, how you doing? I’m Max. Hey, Ravi. Ravi, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max Stewart owns a guiding company, called SAANO Adventures. And he’s offered to help us set up an anchor and climbing rope on the Beaver Street wall… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> I’d be happy to. Did you bring some shoes? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I brought some shoes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Yeah? Okay. Cool.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Outdoor rocks don’t come with built-in safety equipment like the climbs in a gym, so we’ll need to secure our rope to something sturdy at the top of the rock wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>There’s a little staircase here. Yep, there it is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max leads us up and around the back side of the rock, to the top of a windy hill. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I can pick out landmarks like the diagonal slash of Market Street below, the Salesforce tower and the Bay Bridge in the distance. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Directly in front of us is a steep drop off. It looks a lot more intimidating from up here! \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Isn’t that wild? So the playground. we met just right down there. There’s the sign that you were reading.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Separating us from the edge of the cliff is a chain link fence. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> And then a bunch of heavy duty chains that we’re gonna use.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>These heavy duty chains bolted into the top of the wall are perfect for setting up what’s called a “top rope” climb, where a rope runs from the ground, up to an anchor, and back down to the climber, catching them if they fall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> Always a little weird!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Max explains that this is the same setup used by climbing gyms … even if it looks a bit different outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Oh, man. That was impressive. [to Ravi] Is this what you were expecting? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> No, not at all. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>A little different than the climbing gym, huh? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, yeah, definitely.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>I’ve climbed outside a bit myself and part of what I love is the sense of possibility. There aren’t any predetermined holds, you can find your own route up to the top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Every single person is gonna have their own method for solving this. the gyms I think are a really good place to get started, to kinda just learn the ropes, but I really encourage people as soon as, you feel like you can do it, to get outside.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>Is this gonna be your first time climbing outside? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Uh, yes. Yes, this will be. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>No way, really? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Oh, it’s so fun.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of climbing over chain link fence\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart:\u003c/strong> When was the last time you were hopping [00:07:00] fences to go climbing. Hey. It feels kinda like you’re doing stuff you’re not supposed to do, hopping fences and … It’s like good clean fun, but still kind of a throwback, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>No laws were broken in the making of this podcast! But Max is right. Setting up the rope above Beaver Street really does feel like getting away with something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music starts\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A lot of urban climbs FEEL illicit because it seems kind of unnatural to be doing something we associate with mountains right in our backyards. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But, there’s actually a long history of Bay Area climbers using whatever they can find to ready themselves for those more ambitious, wild ascents. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Beaver Street is one of the only rocks you can climb outdoors in San Francisco, but just across the bay, in the Berkeley Hills, is another city park where climbers have been pushing the limits of the sport for almost a century.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John Sherman grew up in Berkeley. And he remembers getting introduced to climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman:\u003c/strong> Well, it’s kind of a funny story. Some friends and I in high school, we scored some beer. Of course, we weren’t of legal drinking age, so we were really excited, and we wanted to find some place where \u003cs>we, you know, \u003c/s>we’d be semi-hidden to drink it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>So they made their way to Indian Rock park, a collection of volcanic boulders that was once an Ohlone meeting spot. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And we were sitting on the steps there drinking this beer we had gotten, and I saw people climbing there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The climbers were just a few feet off the ground … practicing gravity-defying moves.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>That day I got fascinated with it, and I wanted to try it myself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Pretty soon, he was taking the bus to Indian Rock every day after school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And I would always have my climbing shoes in my book bag along with my textbooks and stuff, and I would stop there on the way home every day, go to Indian Rock and boulder till it got dark and then walk home.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He was at the rock so often that his brother started describing himself as an only child.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I got hooked, and I’ve been doing it every day since. And, you know, it’s been over 50 years now.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The type of climbing John was doing is called bouldering. There aren’t any ropes, but people climb closer to the ground, using pads to cushion a fall. At least, they do now. But in the early days…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>We took a real beating and there weren’t that many people like myself who were daft enough to go through that and keep beating themselves up like that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John is a bit of a legend. He was the first person to climb a bunch of famous bouldering routes, he helped invent those cushioned pads, AND he created a system for ranking the difficulty of climbs — called the V grading system — that’s widely used today. It starts with the easiest climbs at V0 and goes up from there as the climbing gets harder — V1, V2 and so on. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The V comes from John’s lifelong nickname, given to him by a biology teacher at El Cerrito High.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>So he called me Sherman the Vermin. Got shortened to Verm and just kind of stuck.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John actually hates how fixated other climbers get on his V grading system.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>I just think of climbing grades as the excrement of the climbing experience. After you do a wonderful, you know, boulder problem, and you enjoy the setting that you’re in, the camaraderie of your climbing partners, the kinesthetic flow of the moves and everything, and then what happens afterwards? Out pops a V grade.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Instead, John likes to think of himself as part of a long line of climbers honing their skills at Indian Rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The early history that I know of that’s documented goes back to like the 1930s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>At that time, a group of Berkeley law students — and mountaineers — had their sights on Yosemite Valley.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And here is a collection of rocks where they could train.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The training part was important. Because at the time mountain climbing was super dangerous. The gear was heavy and awkward. The safety equipment didn’t really work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were using these flimsy ropes made out of hemp that were stiff and dry and tended to break if they got pulled apart too quickly.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>John says most people assumed that falling on a climbing route was a death sentence.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>The rope’s gonna break and that’s it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>But these Berkeley students, climbing at Indian Rock. They came up with a counterintuitive idea.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> More on their idea and how it revolutionized climbing after this quick break. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> UC Berkeley Students climbing at Indian Rock wanted to make climbing safer, and they discovered a technique that would really change the game. Francesca Fenzi takes it from here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi:\u003c/strong> It was all in how you handled the rope… \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>If you let it run through your hands and slowly break the fall, that rope might not snap, and you can actually catch the leader if they fall, and they’re not gonna die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>This was huge. Climbers started practicing these “slow” rope falls by jumping off the boulders at Indian Rock. And they brought these life-saving skills to Yosemite with them.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A decade later, in the 1940s, nylon was widely available. And climbers started using the stretchy fiber to make stronger, more shock-absorbant ropes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>And then all of a sudden things got a lot safer. The nylon ropes were less prone to breaking than hemp ropes were.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Falling on a rock climb was no longer a death sentence and that made the sport a lot more popular.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As new tools and techniques made climbs safer, the goals of climbing changed, too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Sherman: \u003c/strong>Style was more important than difficulty.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>John says by the time he got hooked, rock climbing was no longer just about getting to the top. It was about finding creative ways up a rock, and making the act of climbing itself beautiful.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Climbers were \u003cem>still \u003c/em>eager to test themselves on the big climbs in places like Yosemite and Joshua Tree. But the Bay Area’s natural geology was limiting. And climbing gyms — with their variety of simulated rock types — weren’t as common as they are today.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for Bay Area climbers to take their skills to the next level … they had to look in some unexpected places.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Pretty much every building is climbable is what I found out, if you look at it in the right way.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan Schulz is the kind of climber who looks at it “the right way.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s 23 and sees climbing opportunities everywhere. Even the UC Berkeley campus, where he’s showing me one of the university’s most famous climbing “routes.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a crack in the side of a brick building that houses the Chemistry department. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>This is the crack we’re looking at right here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>It takes me a moment to “see” it the way Jordan does.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>To me, I’m looking at a brick wall with a parking sign on it. Yeah. And there’s a gap in the wall that’s maybe about an inch and a half thick. And it runs from the base of the wall to the the next story up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>Yeah. That’s the climb. It doesn’t really look like much when you look at it. And then I think that’s the beautiful part about it, is that you need to open your eyes to it, you know?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says climbers have been using the crack in this building to practice their technique since at least the 1960s\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A lot of the style of climbing in Yosemite and the Sierras features a lot of cracks in the rock. And so, it offers a good training ground to learn some crack climbing technique that would help people climb better in the mountains.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Jordan says this spot has another name: the Penny Wall. Back in the 60s, when a climber was practicing at the crack, they’d stick a penny onto the highest brick they could reach.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>And so people would see, like, how high was the penny, and every so often it would get higher.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>A challenge to the next climber…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jordan Schulz: \u003c/strong>A subtle way of communicating you know, who climbed a little higher and moved the penny up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Back at Beaver Street, our question asker Ravi is getting ready to place his own metaphorical penny on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: All right, Ravi, let’s get your shoes on- Yep\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>He’s about to climb outside for the first time.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene:\u003c/strong> How are you feeling about climbing it? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> I’m excited. I’m also, yeah, a li- little nervous. Like, I don’t want to slip, but, no, mostly excited. Mostly feeling excited about climbing this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Your belay is on. And climbing. Okay. Climb on, sir.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area’s outdoor rock walls have been home to major breakthroughs in the sport. But as Max would say, they’re also good clean fun.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What do you think of outdoor climbing versus, uh, in the gym? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> This is great. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Isn’t it so nice?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>And urban climbs like this one — tucked into corners of busy cities — feel like secrets, passed along by other members of this special club. People who’ve contributed a penny, or a pair of chains, or advice about how to get around a tricky stretch of rock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Try and utilize that crack as much as possible. This guy’s got some bragging rights having this be his first outdoor climb, and he’s just absolutely sending it. Okay, I’m gonna lower you nice and slow. Just walk those feet down. Hey, nice work, man. That was amazing. Good job, man. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Thank you. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>First outdoor climb. Yeah. What a classic too, man. This is a, uh- That was amazing … that’s no slouch of a climb, man. That was, uh, you worked hard for that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi: \u003c/strong>Whether you’re a seasoned mountaineer, or a new climber, like Ravi, a neighborhood rock can feel just as magical as Yosemite.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>What’d you think of that glass section in the middle there? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> The glass section was definitely interesting. That was wild. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Well, what do you think? Should we, uh, pull these ropes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds or rope falling from a great height\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Max Stewart: \u003c/strong>Boom. That’s it. That’s the sound of the end of it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Classical music plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Francesca Fenzi in scene: \u003c/strong>That song is the perfect soundtrack. Was that your cellphone?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ravi Bhoraskar:\u003c/strong> Yeah, it was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That story was brought to us by KQED reporter Francesca Fenzi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I’ve got two requests for you on our way out. First, Head to \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a> and VOTE in our public voting round to help us decide what story we should tackle next. All it takes is a few seconds and one click.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Second, consider becoming a member of KQED and supporting Bay Curious. We are relying more on listener donations than we have in the past and every dollar helps us to keep bringing you stories like this one. Head to \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> to get started.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>\u003c/p>",
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"slug": "why-is-piedmont-a-separate-city-from-oakland-2",
"title": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? Bay Curious Explains",
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"headTitle": "Why Is Piedmont a Separate City From Oakland? Bay Curious Explains | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland City Hall in Oakland on April 28, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094662\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094662\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1273\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-1536x988.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Piedmont Springs Park Club House, Oakland, California, Postcard from 1898 – 1931 \u003ccite>(Sepia Times/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Piedmont is surrounded on all sides by Oakland. A look back at the history of how the city was founded.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>This story was first published on April 4, 2019, and was updated on Feb. 1, 2024, to reflect updated census data.\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of a geographical oddity. It’s not even 2 square miles in size and is surrounded on all sides by Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If you look closely, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.google.com/maps/place/Piedmont,+CA/@37.8249429,-122.2441171,5564m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80857d7f7f19c5f5:0xb8deddc8c24bd3f!8m2!3d37.8243715!4d-122.231635\">town’s borders\u003c/a> seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around, sometimes through the middle of homes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/series/baycurious\">Bay Curious\u003c/a> listener David Levine has long wondered what’s up with this doughnut hole in the middle of Oakland. He asked, “Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I think it’s worth understanding the history, and then we can ask questions as a community, ‘Is that still relevant today?'” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course, but as soon as we started digging around, we quickly found that the story of Piedmont starts in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The Little City That Could\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population,” said Oakland librarian Steve Lavoie, who curated an exhibit on Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737640\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737640 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/oyy29ensdzi7cg2d-800x600.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"600\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">An illustration in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1909. \u003ccite>(Oakland Tribune/Oakland History Room)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group, who felt that small cities were rife for corruption,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These leaders thought that the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something — like raid the treasury or discourage business competition.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific Coast at the time,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This large city could come together only if they could convince all of the neighboring towns or communities without their own governments to join Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Expanding the Boundaries\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns, whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1872, it annexed the town of Brooklyn. Twenty-five years later came Temescal.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley turned Oakland down.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Each annexation required a vote by the people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard said, “It wasn’t like an aggressive kinda corporate takeover. It was more negotiation with various town councils.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737625 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"450\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-800x450.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-160x90.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1020x574.jpg 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1200x675.jpg 1200w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR-1920x1080.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/1110181710a_HDR.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard points out Oakland’s various annexations. \u003ccite>(Chris Hambrick/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003ch2>A Wrinkle in the Plan\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon, Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The City Council took a measure to vote an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets,” Steve Lavoie said. Oakland’s City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposed annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland,” Lavoie said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12081625\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1920px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12081625\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1920\" height=\"1280\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1.jpg 1920w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/250428-OAKLAND-CITY-HALL-FILE-MD-02-KQED-1920x1280-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1920px) 100vw, 1920px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Oakland City Hall in Oakland on April 28, 2025. \u003ccite>(Martin do Nascimento/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and business people, filed a petition to hold their \u003cem>own \u003c/em>election to become a city. They hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped if they could beat Oakland to the punch. They saw how densely populated Oakland was, and they didn’t want any part of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont historian Ann Swift said convincing other Piedmonters to incorporate was no easy feat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hugh Craig and James Ballentine were the two leaders of the incorporation effort, and they are having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city,” she said. “But there was also opposition. It was not a slam dunk.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A Tragic Loss\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The \u003ca href=\"http://piedmonthistorical.org/banner1.html\">Piedmont Springs Hotel\u003c/a>, which was a great, huge, three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That grand hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction — a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s Fire Department was summoned to come put out the fire.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11737636\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\" style=\"max-width: 800px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-11737636 size-medium\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/news/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"800\" height=\"2150\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-800x2150.jpg 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-160x430.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping-446x1200.jpg 446w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2019/04/newspaperclipping.jpg 762w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">The top story in the Oakland Tribune on Nov. 17, 1892, told the news of the devastating fire. \u003ccite>(\u003ca href=\"https://www.eastbaytimes.com/location/oakland/\">Oakland Tribune/\u003c/a>\u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/\">Newspapers.com\u003c/a>)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“In those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you,” Swift said. “Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagon’s got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else watching the embers burn.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It took Oakland’s Fire Department two hours to get to the hotel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire,” Swift said. “So Piedmonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service, wanting someone right there in the center of this 1.8 square miles.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>To Join or Not To Join\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all these city services like street sprinkling. Back in the day, the streets were mostly unpaved, and especially in the summer, you had water trucks that went through the city and watered down the streets so that it wasn’t so dusty,” Swift said. “Well, Piedmont had no water street-dusting things, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Eighteen more men voted to become a city than voted to not become a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Piedmont was officially a city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward. And in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. The vote was 63–43. But this was impossible now that Piedmont was its own city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate [Piedmont]. So they hold another election in September, and more people voted to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than voted to stay a city,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So then, why is Piedmont separate today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of those little nuggets of law that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds,” Swift said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12094662\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1980px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12094662\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1980\" height=\"1273\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128.jpg 1980w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-160x103.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2024/02/GettyImages-1487195128-1536x988.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1980px) 100vw, 1980px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Piedmont Springs Park Club House, Oakland, California, Postcard from 1898 – 1931 \u003ccite>(Sepia Times/Universal Images Group via Getty Images)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Piedmont stayed a separate city, but its edges weave in and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries — a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>What does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It means that there are 136 parcels … a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland, and/or, where one side of the street is in Piedmont and the other side of the street is in Oakland, like Rose Avenue,” Swift said. “Sewer boundaries wouldn’t ever be what you would want to use in defining city boundaries. You’d want to use streets or major roads. But they didn’t have that choice, so we’re stuck with it.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Piedmont/Oakland Relations Today\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The question-asker wondered about the class and racial divide many see separating Piedmont from Oakland. Host Olivia Allen-Price and reporter Chris Hambrick spoke about it at the end of the episode. Here is the transcript.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us.\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Liam O’Donoghue, host of the \u003ca href=\"https://eastbayyesterday.com/\">East Bay Yesterday podcast\u003c/a>, contributed to the research on this story.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city of Piedmont in the East Bay is a bit of geographical oddity. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I looked at a map and I saw that Piedmont was almost like a doughnut hole in the center of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This is David Levine, our question-asker today. On the map, he saw this tiny city, not even two square miles in size, surrounded on all sides by the city of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">And if you take a close look, the borders of Piedmont seem to make no sense. Instead of following streets or physical landmarks — like the borders of most towns do — in Piedmont, the borders snake around — sometimes through the middle of homes. All this got David wondering ….\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>David Levine:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Why is Piedmont a separate city from Oakland? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This is Bay Curious, the podcast that explores the Bay Area one \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">question at a time. I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This week we’re bringing you the wild, unexpected origin story of the city of Piedmont. This story first aired in 2019, but it’s a topic we still get questions about on the regular. So, Piedmont fans, Piedmont detractors, and all you generally curious people — stick around for some answers.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">SPONSOR MESSAGE\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Now, this is a story about Piedmont, of course. But as soon as we started digging, we found out…. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … The story of Piedmont starts in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> … Reporter Chris Hambrick brings us the tale. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the late 1800s, Oakland incorporated, going from ranch land and small settlement clusters to becoming an official city. Almost immediately, it started to grow. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begins)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland leaders were under a very ambitious program to enlarge the city’s boundaries and increase the population. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Steve Lavoie. He’s an Oakland librarian who curated an exhibit on Piedmont history. This program to expand Oakland’s boundaries was called the Greater Oakland Movement. City leaders wanted to add more land and more residents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">This movement was not so much motivated by economic interests, but it was motivated by the anti-monopoly group who felt that small cities were ripe for corruption. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They thought the smaller the city, the greater the chance that greedy folks would do something like raid the treasury or discourage competition among businesses. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music fades)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The original plan would have created the largest city on the Pacific coast at the time. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> This large city could only come together if they could convince all of the neighboring towns and communities without their own government to join Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(music begin)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland started at about 170 city blocks in size. It grew from there by absorbing surrounding towns whose names you might recognize as neighborhoods today. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Voices:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Temescal. Brooklyn. Fruitvale. Elmhurst. Melrose. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Chris Hambrick: \u003c/b>They tried to get Berkeley, but Berkeley said, “No, thanks.”\u003c/span> Each annexation required a vote by people in the town.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You know, it wasn’t like an aggressive kind of corporate takeover or anything. It was more negotiation with various town councils. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That’s Oakland librarian Dorothy Lazard. Oakland city leaders kept eyeing new territory, and soon Piedmont was squarely in its crosshairs. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The city council took a measure to vote, an annexation of all the land in what is now Piedmont, and a whole bunch of other East Oakland hamlets. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Oakland City Council set the vote on annexing Piedmont for January 1907. But then something went wrong. In their paperwork, they failed to name one of the districts that they wanted to annex, and the vote was postponed until March. This left a really big opening for mayhem. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">(dramatic music starts)\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Steve Lavoie:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> In the meantime, a group in Piedmont who opposes annexation jumped on the opportunity to try and incorporate Piedmont as a way of preventing annexation into Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> During the delay in Oakland’s vote, some Piedmont residents, a mix of bohemian artists and businesspeople, filed a petition to hold their own election to become a city. If they could beat Oakland to the punch, they hoped Piedmont would remain rural and undeveloped. Piedmont historian Ann Swift says convincing other Piedmont to incorporate was no easy feat. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> They’re having meetings every other night, practically trying to rally the troops and get everybody excited about creating this new city. But there was also opposition. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Something that happened back in 1892 weighed heavily on the minds of voters. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The Piedmont Springs Hotel, which was a great huge three-story white clapboard edifice that sat in the center of the city, caught fire early one morning in November. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> That Grand Hotel was Piedmont’s biggest tourist attraction, a place where wealthy San Franciscans came to relax. Piedmont didn’t have city services, so Oakland’s fire department was summoned to come out the fire.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Because in those days, there were no fire hydrants. You had to bring the water with you. Well, imagine a team of horses dragging a big tanker full of water up Oakland Avenue, for instance. Very, very difficult and slow going. So by the time the fire wagons got to the hotel, they were just sitting with everybody else, watching the embers burn. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It took Oakland’s fire department a whopping two hours to get to the hotel. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It was completely gone. And that was what happened if your house in the Piedmont hills caught fire. So Pidemonters were adamant about wanting their own fire service. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All the Piedmont residents agreed that they needed a better solution for fire response, but they differed on whether better meant being a part of Oakland or figuring it out as their own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont had no experience with levying taxes and evaluating property and providing all the city services, and so all of that was going to have to be created. And there was a sizable part of the city who thought there was no need to go through that. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> The big vote on whether Piedmont should incorporate happened in January 1907. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Eighteen more men voted to become a city, than voted to not become a city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But here’s where it gets tricky. Oakland’s vote to annex Piedmont still went forward, and in March, a majority of Piedmont residents voted to join Oakland. But this was impossible, now that Piedmont was its own city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Ann Swift:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So the only thing that the opponents in the Piedmont hills can do is to hold an election to disincorporate a city. So they hold another election in September, and more people vote to become part of the city of Oakland, to disincorporate Piedmont than vote to stay a city. So I always ask the school kids, well, so how come I’m not talking to you in Oakland City Hall? It’s one of those little nuggets of lore that people don’t know much about or care much about until they have to. It requires two-thirds vote of the people to disincorporate a city, and they failed to get two-thirds. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Piedmont stayed a separate city, with its edges within and out of Oakland. This is because, in their haste to file paperwork to incorporate Piedmont, proponents grabbed the only map they had on hand to define the boundaries. It was a map of the sewer lines that snaked underneath the houses in Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick (in tape):\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So what does that mean for the borders of Piedmont today? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Dorothy Lazard:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> It means that there are 136 parcels, a portion of which are in Piedmont and a portion of which are in Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So, Chris, it sounds like Piedmont will continue to be sort of this city within a city, you know, the Vatican of the East Bay, if you will. Now, I know our question-asker had a few concerns about how Oakland and Piedmont interact. Did any of those issues sort of come to light for you as you were reporting the story? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I learned that both Oakland and Piedmont have an agreement to back each other up when it comes to fire and police services and that Piedmont pays the city of Oakland to use their library since they don’t have any of their own. But when it comes to resident-to-resident interaction, that relationship was a little bit more strained than people would admit on tape. In general, Piedmont residents enjoy having this small-town feel within their city. They know their public officials by name. They know their neighbors. But it seems like some Piedmont residents feel judged for being able to live that way. And on the Oakland side, there’s this feeling that Piedmont residents have been more deliberate and separating themselves and they did that along race and class lines. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And why do you think there’s this perception? Where does that come from? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> I think it kind of stems from back in the 1920s. Piedmont had a police chief by the name of Burton Becker, and Burton was an active member of the Klu Klux Klan. He held Klan meetings inside of his house, and at a time when Oakland had banned the Klan because the jurisdiction was different, he was shielded a little bit from persecution, being in Piedmont. He could not be banned because Piedmont is its own city. And then, after World War II, when many African Americans were migrating to the Bay Area from the American South, Oakland’s housing stock was more affordable than Piedmont, so people ended up settling in Oakland. And Piedmont residents are 68% white and 21% Asian, according to the 2020 Census. Compare that with Oakland, which has much larger Black and Latino populations. Some people view this as evidence that Piedmont created a community that excludes based on race and class.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> And I understand there hasn’t been any like super serious effort to, you know, merge Piedmont and Oakland. But there was a social media campaign a few years back. Can you tell me about the Liberate Piedmont movement? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> So a high schooler named Noah Goldstein wanted to explore the possibility of merging Piedmont and Oakland because he felt like Piedmont residents enjoy the benefits of Oakland without having to pay for them. And Piedmont residents pay hefty taxes to support their schools and their city services but they pay that money to the city of Piedmont. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> But it sounds like Piedmont residents weren’t super keen on this idea of becoming a part of Oakland. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Yeah, that’s what I gather. They have a degree of comfort with the way that their life is now. And even though the city founders weren’t able to keep that development from happening, you know, the area’s just 1.7 square miles. And so they did succeed in creating that small-town feel inside their city. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> All right. Well, Chris, thanks so much for looking into this one for us. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Chris Hambrick:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> You’re welcome. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> A big thanks to Bay Curious listener David Levine for asking this week’s question. \u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Liam O’Donohue, the host and creator of the East Bay Yesterday podcast, was a big help with the research on this story. If you haven’t checked out Liam’s podcast yet, I highly suggest you give it a try. Just search East Bay yesterday. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> Bay Curious is produced in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. The show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia-Allen Price. Additional support from Jen Chien, Katie Sprenger, Cesar Saldana, Maha Sanad, Holly Kernan and the whole KQED Family.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Thanks so much for listening.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"title": "Welcome to Anchorage 9: The Giant Ship Parking Lot You Pass Every Day",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Standard Oil collision\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"950\" height=\"753\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 950px) 100vw, 950px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other prominent anchorages\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1616\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Constant dredging\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Standard Oil collision",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Standard Oil collision\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Other prominent anchorages",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other prominent anchorages\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Constant dredging",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Constant dredging\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\"/>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Ships entering and exiting San Francisco Bay have to follow strict safety protocols. They can only “park” in designated areas called anchorages that are managed by Vessel Traffic Services.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Look out over the \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/san-francisco-bay\">San Francisco Bay\u003c/a> on any given day, and you may see a collection of giant container ships anchored offshore. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious listener Stephanie Rohlfs has seen them countless times on her runs, and the same question always pops into her mind: “How do the cargo ships know where to park? Is there an invisible parking lot or some other system?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092756\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-12-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Janice Smith points to a map of ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The short answer is: yes, there is a parking lot, although mariners call them anchorages. The largest ship parking lot in the bay is called Anchorage 9, just south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In that area, there are 24 designated “anchor buckets” where ships can drop anchor and be confident that even if they are buffeted by wind and current, there’s no danger they will swing into another ship. They are arrayed in three rows of eight going north-south.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The answer may seem simple, but the journey to arrive at this system is both tragic and riveting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Standard Oil collision\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In the early morning hours of Jan. 19, 1971, two big oil tankers operated by Standard Oil were on the move. The Oregon was leaving Richmond headed towards the open ocean. The Arizona was heading into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Both ships contacted the Coast Guard for weather updates and information on other boat traffic initially, but as they neared the Golden Gate Strait, they stopped communicating. It was a night of thick fog. At around 1:45 a.m., disaster struck. A quarter mile west of the Golden Gate Bridge, the \u003ca href=\"https://www.sfchronicle.com/chronicle_vault/article/Chronicle-Covers-San-Francisco-Bay-s-oil-spill-6754542.php\">two ships collided\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay,” said Gary Reed, Director of \u003ca href=\"https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/VTS%20User%20Guides/VTS_SF_UserManual_APR2025.pdf\">Vessel Traffic Service San Francisco\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"950\" height=\"753\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092755\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED.jpg 950w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-02-KQED-160x127.jpg 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 950px) 100vw, 950px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bulldozers were used to try and clean up oil-soaked sand at San Francisco’s Ocean Beach in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Reed said back then the Coast Guard had two employees watching the radar at Fort Mason Center along the San Francisco waterfront. They could see the two ships moving on their display, but had no way of radioing them. Ships only checked in when they \u003cem>wanted\u003c/em> to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships. They were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Area residents woke the next morning to oil on their beaches. Birds covered in oil were washing up on shore, unable to move. Standard Oil paid workmen to help clean up the beaches, but volunteers also came out in droves to help.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The incident caught the attention of legislators in Washington, D.C. They passed the \u003ca href=\"https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title46/subtitle7/chapter700&edition=prelim\">Ports and Waterways Safety Act\u003c/a>, which created Vessel Traffic Services.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>It’s a bit like air traffic control in aviation — responsible for knowing where ships are in the bay and communicating with them as they enter and exit.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The new law also made participation in shore monitoring \u003cem>mandatory\u003c/em> for all ships entering U.S. ports.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the Vessel Traffic Service,” Reed said. “So that’s what gave us our authority. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The VTS is in charge of communicating with ships as they enter and exit the bay, and they manage the anchorages where ships can “park.” They work closely with the San Francisco Bar Pilots, \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/12089929/why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay\">local mariners with expert knowledge\u003c/a> of the waterways and conditions, to assign ships to specific spots.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when it needs to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying,” Reed said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Other prominent anchorages\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In addition to Anchorage 9 in the main part of the bay, Bay Area residents have likely also seen ship action at Anchorage 5, just south of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge and near the Richmond oil terminals. Often tugboats and barges are anchored there waiting to assist oil tankers as they come into the bay to load and unload.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Another eye-catching location is Anchorage 7, just west of Treasure Island. Reed said this is a temporary anchorage meant for short-term use. Most frequently, ships will stop and anchor here if they’ve been sitting at anchor for weeks and are finally headed to their next destination, but need to resupply before doing so. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1616\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092754\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-160x129.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/ShipParking-01-KQED-1536x1241.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Volunteers work to clean up oil washing up on Ocean Beach after a collision between two oil tankers under the Golden Gate Bridge spilled 800,000 gallons of oil into the bay in 1971. (Courtesy of San Francisco History Center, San Francisco Public Library)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Anchorage 7 is also used in emergencies. If a ship is coming into the bay and has an engine problem, VTS does not want that ship traveling under the Bay Bridge. They’ll ask the ship to wait at Anchorage 7 until its engine is repaired.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents,” Reed said.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Constant dredging\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To keep Bay Area ports operating, the Army Corps of Engineers dredges the shipping channels on an \u003ca href=\"https://www.epa.gov/marine-protection-permitting/sf-bay-ltms\">ongoing basis\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Some of the container ships that call at the Port of Oakland are longer than the Salesforce Tower is high. And when a ship that big is loaded up with cargo, it has a deep draft — meaning it sticks way down into the water and needs a deep channel.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The stuff the Corps dredges up from the bottom of the bay is called “spoils” and is most often dumped offshore in the Pacific Ocean. Reed said the Army Corps of Engineers knows which parts of the bay are likely to have toxic or harmful materials and they test the spoils before deciding where to dump it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12092759\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-KQED-1-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Ships anchored in the San Francisco Bay, in what are called anchor buckets, on Jan. 14, 2026. Anchor buckets offer longer-term places to park for commercial ships. (Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But ultimately, the material has to go somewhere, so even stuff dredged up near former military sites does get dumped about 50 miles offshore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rules governing the bay and the vessels on it often feel totally separate from Bay Area life lived on shore. For many, the complex work of the maritime industry is just a picturesque backdrop to the daily commute, a necessary but mysterious business. But knowing a bit more about how it all works might mean the next time you look out over the water you’ll be able to say: “Anchorage 9 is looking pretty full today.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. This is Bay Curious – the show that answers listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>Now, if you look out over that bay on any given day, and you’ll see a lot of boat traffic. Ferries chugging along their routes, massive cargo ships headed to port, oil tankers on their way to Richmond, cruise ships unload passengers.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And then weaving between those larger ships are sailboats tacking back and forth, Coast Guard boats patrolling the shoreline, kayakers, even swimmers! To an untrained eye, it can seem like absolute chaos.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Stephanie Rohlfs has spent a lot of time looking at the ships on the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>I used to live in West Oakland, and during the pandemic, when we were all desperate to go outside, I started doing a little bit of jogging at Middle Harbor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Right near the Port of Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>Involved a lot of staring at container ships going by.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>She also noticed the cargo ships further out, parked in the middle of the bay. And started wondering…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Stephane Rohlfs: \u003c/strong>How do the cargo ships know where to park? And is there an invisible parking lot or some other system? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Stephanie is not the only one curious about how it all works out there. Her question won a Bay Curious voting round, so there are a lot of you with the same question. Here to answer Stephanie is Bay Curious editor and Producer Katrina Schwartz. Hey, Katrina!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Hi, Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> You’ve become quite the maritime expert over the last few months.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know, I got to dig into how the \u003cem>bar pilots\u003c/em> work and shadow one of them on a job for an episode that aired a few weeks ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you’re interested in that episode, by the way, we’ll put a link in our show notes. But right now, let’s get into Stephanie’s question. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, before we get into where and how cargo ships park, I first need to tell you a little story that sets up how we got to the system we have today\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> OK, I’m listening.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Allow me to set the scene…\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Dramatic music\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It was a cold, foggy night in 1971…the kind where you’d be happy to be snuggled up at home. But a disaster was quietly unfolding in the bay, right under the Golden Gate Bridge. Two big oil tankers were heading in opposite directions…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>The Oregon was moving out of the Gate and the Arizona was moving toward the Gate to come inside the bay. Both ships had been in touch with the Coast Guard for information on weather conditions and locations of ships.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>But back then, there weren’t as many safety protocols in place. So after checking in with the Coast Guard, both ships stopped communicating.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>At about 1:45 Monday morning, the incoming Arizona rammed the Oregon port side, about a quarter mile west of the Golden Gate just opposite the center span. The two ships locked together with oil gushing from the gaping hole and drifted towards the south end of Angel Island.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So 800,000 gallons of petroleum spilled in the bay.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s Gary Reed. He works for the Coast Guard, managing Vessel Traffic Services in San Francisco. He knows this history intimately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Now the two operators were trying to call the ships and trying to call the ships; they were just watching this slow train wreck about to happen. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary told me that since ships only checked in when they wanted to…there was no way to alert the two ships they were on a path to collision, even though the Coast Guard could see it all on the radar.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>San Franciscans woke up that Monday morning to oil on their beaches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>I went down to the beach, down to Ocean Beach, Monday afternoon at about 2 o’clock. I swim in the ocean every day. And I go down there and see all this oil. It’s just sick.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There was a huge outpouring of volunteers over the following days and weeks to not only help clean up oil, but to also try and save the birds that were so covered in oil they could barely move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Archival tape: \u003c/strong>In addition to the 150 or so paid workmen, there were at least that many volunteers along the marina today. Most of them young, and many of them there to save the birds, which came floating in soaked in oil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even though this is pretty recent history – 1971 – I haven’t heard about it before.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>That’s so often true of things that happened after the “past” we learn about in high school history class, right?\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, I’m telling you this story because it was a wake-up call for everyone around the country. Even Congress — all the way in D.C. — paid attention and eventually passed a law that created the Vessel Traffic Services or VTS. They made it mandatory for ships in every port throughout the country to participate in shore monitoring and to have the necessary radio equipment to communicate with VTS.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>So they made it mandatory for you to listen to a particular channel on the radio and follow the direction of the vessel traffic service. And in 1972, VTS San Francisco became the very first VTS in the United States. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The very first VTS! That’s kind of a claim to fame. Um, what does VTS do exactly?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Well, they are basically air traffic control for ships. And they’re important to Stephanie’s question about parking in the bay because they communicate with ships coming in from the open sea, and manage the areas where they can park.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So there IS a parking lot!\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>There is, although in maritime lingo they call parking lots “anchorages.” There are 30 anchorages, or zones, in total. Most are in the main bay, and then others are scattered throughout the region’s waterways.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> I would say technically you are not allowed to anchor anywhere outside of those anchorages.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And this is for big ships – recreational vessels like sailboats or yachts are another story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me about a few of the most prominent anchorages we might see from shore.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>OK, so, one of them is called Anchorage 5. It’s just south of the Richmond Bridge. You’ll often see tugboats parked there because when an oil tanker ship comes in, the tugboats are waiting to push it up alongside the oil terminals there in Richmond.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Just west of Treasure Island, we have Anchorage 7. And that’s the one that I think a lot of people, well, it piques my attention when I see someone anchored there because it is very visible and it’s highly susceptible to winds and currents and all the weather aspects you can get outta that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary says that one is temporary and is most often used by ships that are only going to be there a few hours while they bring on supplies. You won’t see ships there all the time. But the area south of the Bay Bridge and north of the San Mateo Bridge is what most people see.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>And then the biggest one I think most people see when you’re driving across the Bay Bridge, and you’re looking south, you’ll see what we call Anchorage 9, that is our parking lot. That’s where the large ships go to await birth or make repairs or refuel. But that’s our big one down there. That’s our major parking lot.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anchorage nine gets a lot of use by really large ships, so there are designated “buckets” or spots where ships drop their anchors. And that’s because if the weather is really bad and a ship is getting buffeted by the wind and is out at the end of its anchor chain that it’s not going to hit anything nearby. All told, there are 24 of those “anchor buckets” in Anchorage 9. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Tell me a little more about how this whole parking lot system works. Is there a parking meter? A valet? Are we talking parallel parking or pull-in?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary said in this system the bar pilots are your very expert valets. They’re those local mariners who specialize in this region. And they decide who parks where.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>They have a little bit more in-depth knowledge of where the ship is going, when does it need to be there, how deep is its draft and what is it carrying. I kind of think of it like the matrix. They’re looking at all the windows. They know what’s coming next and who’s leaving next.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My first question was how much it costs to park at one of these anchorages, but Gary said the fee structure doesn’t work the same way as a parking lot. Instead, the shipping companies pay the bar pilots a fee that’s based on tonnage. They don’t pay the Coast Guard anything for the actual harbor spot. But most ships don’t want to sit around long in the harbor because that’s money lost.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn what makes this region so tricky to manage. Stay with us.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor Break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> KQED is member-supported media. That means we don’t have any shareholders to please or business conflicts that could affect our reporting. It’s you we’re serving – plain and simple. If that type of journalism sounds like your jam, consider becoming a member at \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>OK, now back to talking about all the boat traffic we see in the Bay with Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz. So, we’ve established that there IS a parking lot for the ships in the bay and that it’s highly regulated because when ships collide, it can be catastrophic, as we saw in 1971. What makes this area so tricky for mariners?. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I’m going to let Gary Reed, head of VTS, answer that.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> It is tricky because of the weather, and it’s tricky, tricky, it’s unique because of the different kinds of waters that we have. We have offshore, we have a bay, we have estuary, we have delta. I mean rivers that go all the way up to Sacramento and Stockton.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Gary compared it to the port in Long Beach, which actually does a lot more shipping than any of our ports, but is also simpler.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: \u003c/strong>Their area is very limited. They have about a 25-mile area that they monitor and manage. And we have 5,000 square miles that we monitor and manage.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Wow, that’s a huge difference.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Yes, and the waterways themselves in the Bay Area are complicated, with bridges, rivers, shallow areas, etc. It’s part of the reason we have the bar pilots…mariners with local knowledge who board every ship over a certain size and navigate it in and out of the bay. And many local disasters have happened in the fog. Like in 2007…the Costco-Busan incident when an oil tanker clipped the Bay Bridge. So, Gary says now ships don’t go under the bridge or leave anchor if visibility is less than half a nautical mile.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed:\u003c/strong> One of our particular cameras is on Yerba Buena Island, and we can look out and see the Oakland Bay Bridge. And we know that if we can’t see the Oakland Bay Bridge from our camera, then the visibility is such that people can’t move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>While we’re talking about the bay, I want to ask another question that we get a lot from audience members. Many know that on average, the bay is actually pretty shallow, especially down in the South Bay. It can be only 12 feet deep or so. So some of our waterways are dredged. Explain what that is, who does it and how often?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Dredging is the process of excavating the bay floor to make deeper shipping channels. The Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for dredging…and they do it on an ongoing basis. Remember, many of these cargo ships are truly huge, like skyscrapers on their sides moving through the water. And they’re carrying a lot of weight, which means they also stick down into the water pretty far too…that’s called the ship’s draft. Dredging shipping lanes that are deeper than the natural bay floor is the only way that these big container ships can continue to work here.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And I did ask Gary where the Army Corps of Engineers dump the stuff they’ve dredged up.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Gary Reed: [00:40:46] There is a spot off a Pacific beach that they can dump their spoils because what they’re dredging is non-toxic. They’re just putting dirt on dirt.\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He also said if they’re worried about toxins in dredged spoils, they’ll test it first to make sure it won’t damage the environment where they dump it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Alright, any last thoughts since you’ve been immersed in the maritime world?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>One of the interesting things I learned that’s a bit of a side note to the question is that the crews on foreign ships are not allowed off the vessel when they are at anchor or unloading because they are considered foreign nationals. But sometimes ships do sit at anchor for months at a time, which is obviously a tough situation for the folks on board. So, there’s an organization… Seafarer’s Ministry of the Golden Gate… whose mission is to check up on those folks, on the mental and physical well-being of crew members.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> I can’t imagine being on a ship for weeks and weeks and then getting near land and having to look at it and not get off the ship.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I know. And these people actually go onboard, they bring care packages and offer to listen or counsel crew members in their own languages. I’m sure it’s not enough, but at least it’s something.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Yeah, sounds like a really interesting job. Well, Katrina, thanks for your reporting.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>My pleasure. These maritime jobs are really interesting. A totally different lifestyle than what a lot of us landlubbers are used to.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This question was selected by you in a voting round on \u003ca href=\"http://baycurious.org\">BayCurious.org\u003c/a>. Be sure you never miss a voting round by subscribing to the Bay Curious newsletter. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made at member-supported KQED in San Francisco. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "the-bruce-lee-fight-in-oakland-that-became-martial-arts-legend",
"title": "The Bruce Lee Fight in Oakland That Became Martial Arts Legend",
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"headTitle": "The Bruce Lee Fight in Oakland That Became Martial Arts Legend | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though they were peers and close friends, Greglon’s father was one of Bruce’s most fervent disciples.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BKNDc48N4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1442\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1442px) 100vw, 1442px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1338\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1539\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BKNDc48N4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2BKNDc48N4\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene ",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The Sun Sing Theater demonstration",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” \u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
"text": "The ‘Showdown in Oakland’",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n",
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"\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": {
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"srcset": "https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w",
"sizes": "(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.”\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.”\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "The aftermath of the fight",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"(min-width: 992px) min(100vw, 1536px), (min-width: 768px) min(100vw, 1280px), min(100vw, 1020px)\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n",
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"\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" />\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner.\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n"
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"text": "Episode transcript",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n"
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"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n"
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n"
],
"innerBlocks": []
},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n"
],
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{
"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n"
],
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},
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n"
],
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"blockName": "core/paragraph",
"attrs": [],
"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco, but found his people in the East Bay. His legendary 1964 Oakland fight reshaped his martial arts philosophy and stoked rumors about race and kung fu.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Greglon Lee peered through the gaps in a black, wrought-iron fence enclosing an empty corner lot on \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland’s\u003c/a> Auto Row. More than half a century ago, the martial arts legend Bruce Lee — then still unknown — ran a kung fu studio here with Greglon’s father. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though they were peers and close friends, Greglon’s father was one of Bruce’s most fervent disciples.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The main teacher was Bruce,” Greglon said. “My dad was 20 years older, and had just as much experience, but he let Bruce run things. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086153\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01191-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee stores James Lee’s old Mook Jong, a training tool in martial arts, in the garage of the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The studio served as the ring of what may have been one of the most important fights of Bruce Lee’s life: the Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“This is the school where Bruce fought Wong Jack-man,” Greglon said. “Bruce took it personally.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce Lee was born in San Francisco when his parents were on tour with an opera company from Hong Kong. He returned to the Bay Area as a young man to study and train, making a name for himself as a martial artist. But only recently has California made an effort to recognize and celebrate the Hollywood star’s early roots here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Earlier this summer, San Francisco officials and Chinatown community members, along with Bruce’s daughter, Shannon, led the effort to commemorate May 17 — the day Bruce moved back to the city from Hong Kong as a teen — as Bruce Lee Day — becoming the first Chinese American to be honored with a namesake day in state history. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-4-3 wp-has-aspect-ratio\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutube'>\n \u003cspan class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__embedYoutubeInside'>\n \u003ciframe\n loading='lazy'\n class='utils-parseShortcode-shortcodes-__youtubeShortcode__youtubePlayer'\n type='text/html'\n src='//www.youtube.com/embed/k2BKNDc48N4'\n title='//www.youtube.com/embed/k2BKNDc48N4'\n allowfullscreen='true'\n style='border:0;'>\u003c/iframe>\n \u003c/span>\n \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\u003cp>\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Though the Hollywood icon and martial artist’s time here in the Bay Area was brief, it was formative. Among the best-known chapters is the Showdown in Oakland, when he exchanged blows with a martial artist from San Francisco. The fight has become lore in the martial arts world, the subject of books, magazine articles and films, and is well-known to Bruce Lee fans around the world. More than 60 years after it happened, it remains controversial and hotly debated within dojos and on online forums. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“It’s the story of how gung fu — let’s call it by its English name — how kung fu becomes American,” said Berkeley-based historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, who wrote the recent biography \u003cem>Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian-America, \u003c/em>of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Like the classic Akira Kurosawa film \u003cem>Rashomon\u003c/em>, which explores truth and self-interest among characters who give contradictory accounts of an event they witness, the story of the fight reads like a case study in selective human memory. Countless retellings, each drawing from legend and third-hand accounts, have inevitably added a bit to the hero’s journey, turning the story into its own myth. Here’s what really happened: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Moving back to the heart of the martial arts scene \u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In 1964, Bruce was a student at the University of Washington, but spent more time fighting than studying. Through his work as a cha-cha instructor, which would occasionally bring him to the Bay Area to make money, he met an Oakland resident named James Yimm Lee — Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>James, who grew up in Oakland, came from the world of blue-collar bodybuilding and weightlifting. But he was also a skilled martial artist who wanted to modernize and popularize the sport. When he met Bruce, James realized he “was the real deal,” Greglon said, “kind of like the [martial arts] Michael Jordan.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-image\">\n\u003cfigure class=\"alignleft size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"1442\" height=\"2000\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091696\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED.jpg 1442w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-160x222.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-03-KQED-1107x1536.jpg 1107w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1442px) 100vw, 1442px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in long-sleeved shirt, smiling in a family portrait. His wife, Linda Lee Caldwell, holds her daughter, Shannon, with Brandon on the left. (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003c/div>\n\n\n\u003cp>Despite sharing a surname, the men weren’t related but became fast friends and instant collaborators. So, James convinced Bruce to move, along with his wife Linda Lee Caldwell — who was then eight months pregnant — to the Bay Area, to live with James and his two children. James’ wife had just died of cancer, so Linda helped care for Greglon and his sister. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“The Bay Area, at that point,” said Chang, is “the heart of the U.S. martial arts movement. You have like all of these folks who are working class fighters … security guards or policemen or military. And they’re all mixing up into a martial arts scene that now is desegregating — and it’s created a lot of ferment. Bruce wanted to be down there.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce and James spent countless hours together, training and dissecting their craft. The two articulated a shared vision of martial arts: one that fluidly changed between styles and forms, and drew upon Daoism as a philosophy for how to live. To practice these ideas, they set up a kung fu school together in Oakland, which at first they ran out of James’ garage. When they started to pick up more students, they opened up the storefront at 4157 Broadway Street. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two shared a belief that martial arts should be more adaptable, not as fixed in style or form. And they both chafed at what they perceived as rigidity among other martial arts teachers — particularly in San Francisco. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As a young man, Bruce had run afoul of some of the San Francisco Chinatown koons — or kung fu schools. The community, at that time, was extremely wary of outsiders, and, due to decades of anti-Chinese racism, protective of their schools, Chang said. Exclusionary policies had heavily \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/11443320/as-chinese-exclusion-act-turns-135-experts-point-to-parallels-today\">restricted Chinese immigration\u003c/a>, siloing off the community from newer waves of Chinese from the mainland and surrounding territories. San Francisco residents didn’t know what to make of Bruce, Chang said — “a loud, brash immigrant from Hong Kong.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Sun Sing Theater demonstration\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Tensions came to a head in August 1964, when Bruce gave a martial arts demonstration at San Francisco Chinatown’s \u003ca href=\"https://cinematreasures.org/theaters/3939/\">Sun Sing Theater\u003c/a> at 1021 Grant Ave. — one of San Francisco’s oldest opera houses, and where his father had performed opera nearly two decades earlier (though the building’s gorgeous facade remains, it’s boarded up today).\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce had been there on tour with Diana Chang, known as the “Mandarin Marilyn Monroe,” to dance the cha-cha. But after they finished their performance, Bruce had a surprise for the crowd: he took to the stage to demonstrate his style of martial arts for the packed house. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A fight nearly broke out on stage, and the crowd hurled cigarette butts and insults at Bruce, then only 24 years old. As Chang describes it, Bruce scrambled to get the situation back under control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1338\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091695\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-02-KQED-1536x1028.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee in a yellow jumpsuit in action while directing Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on the set of “Game of Death.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“I would like to let everybody know that any time my Chinatown brothers want to try out my Wing Chun,” Bruce said, as retold in Chang’s book, “they are welcomed to come find me at my school in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the riled-up crowd, this sounded like a challenge.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>To the San Francisco martial artists, a fight seemed inevitable. And they chose a promising young fighter, a \u003ca href=\"https://www.jingmo.com/\">\u003cem>jing wu\u003c/em>\u003c/a> star named Wong Jack-man, to challenge the “young dissident,” as the elders in the city called him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was known for being stoic, polished — a picture of grace and power — in comparison with Bruce’s more back-alley style of brawling. To this day, it’s not clear why he agreed to the proposal when his Chinatown friends came to the Jackson Cafe, at 633 Battery, where he worked as a waiter, and asked him to represent the big city in the challenge against Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The ‘Showdown in Oakland’\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The match-up — wrote Charles Russo, San Francisco journalist and author of \u003cem>Striking Distance: Bruce Lee and the Dawn of Martial Arts in America\u003c/em> — was “spectacular,” pitting two talented young martial artists with a uniquely yin-yang-like symmetry together. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Bruce’s style was compact and economical. Wong’s expansive and acrobatic,” Russo said. “Collectively, it had all the characteristics of a fight promoter’s dream.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the end of a cold day in November 1964, Wong Jack-man and his friends piled into a crimson Pontiac Tempest and drove to the Broadway studio in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086152\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01676-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee’s old home on Monticello Avenue in East Oakland on June 1, 2026. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Waiting inside were a “very pregnant Linda,” James, and Bruce, Chang said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong was dressed formally, in a dark, high-collared, long-sleeved uniform with lacing down the middle. Bruce wore white jeans and a white tank top. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There were a total of nine people in the studio, only one of whom is alive today, Bruce’s wife Linda. And she did not speak Cantonese, the \u003cem>lingua franca\u003c/em> of the fight, so undoubtedly some context was lost. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>However, everyone can agree on what happened next: David Chin, one of Wong’s friends and an instigator of the fight, began enumerating rules. Bruce “kept the tone harsh,” martial arts journalist Russo said: “You came to my school to challenge me, and now you want to set the rules?”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When Wong reached out to shake hands, the tense Bruce Lee threw out a feint that crashed right above Wong’s eye — immediately setting the tone for the rest of the fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1539\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12091693\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-160x123.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260717-BRUCE-LEE-01-KQED-1536x1182.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Bruce Lee during the Hall of Mirrors scene on the set of “Enter the Dragon.” (Courtesy of the Bruce Lee Family Archive)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At one point, wrote Rick Wing, one of Wong’s students and another chronicler of the fight, Wong got Bruce into a headlock, though eventually, he let go.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Wong considered Lee to be a sparring opponent only, and not a mortal enemy,” Wing said. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Wong later told Wing about Bruce: “He would never say he lost until you killed him.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A final detail of the fight that everyone agrees with: once Bruce got out of the headlock, he lunged after Wong, who turned and tried to evade the attack. Then, he tripped on a floorboard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The two scuffled on the edge of the studio, with Bruce pummeling Wong with punches and yelling, “Admit it, you lost!”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether Wong actually surrendered is up for debate. However, multiple kung fu students of San Francisco Chinatown have relayed third-hand that if Wong had won, the neighborhood would have been celebrating. Instead, it was silent the next day, like a funeral. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The aftermath of the fight\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The details are somewhat unremarkable — a messy fight in a small Oakland studio with a murky victory — but rumors of the fight, and what caused it, would spread like wildfire through the martial arts community and ultimately reach Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The rumor mill claimed over and over — in tabloids, martial arts magazines and even major Hollywood films — that Chinatown’s old guard took issue with Bruce teaching kung fu to non-Chinese people. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-12086154\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/06/260601-BRUCELEE-TV-01619-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Greglon Lee poses for a portrait at the apartment complex he lives at in Berkeley on June 1, 2026. Greglon Lee is the son of James Lee, a martial artist who once was Bruce Lee’s training partner. (Tâm Vũ/KQED)\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Those who peddle this narrative often point to discrimination Bruce may have faced growing up in Hong Kong, due to his own background as a quarter-Dutch on his mom’s side. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Chang questioned whether this narrative holds up to scrutiny. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people,” Chang said. “I just think that’s not true at all. The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese for a long time.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the fight did have a big effect on Bruce’s life and career.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For all of his bluster, the fight against Wong Jack-man was a huge reality check for Bruce, who realized his technique and conditioning came up short of his own expectations. His sloppy “victory” would forever alter his approach to martial arts, his biographers have said, and came at the right time, just as his Hollywood star was about to rise. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>“Iron sharpens iron,” Greglon said. “You always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better. [After] the fight with Wong Jack-man, Bruce changed his training completely. It helped Bruce go to another level.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Just months after The Showdown in Oakland, Bruce Lee got a call from a Hollywood producer asking him to audition for a part. It was his first big break and the beginning of a distinguished film career that ultimately led to Bruce starring in his most famous film, \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Whether or not the story bears the weight of the facts, “there’s a great mythology here,” Chang said, that may represent its power to this day. In the showdown, Bruce Lee’s fans found a battle over culture and change, one that matched the upheaval of the times, and wider shifts within Asian America. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Although that context was real, the more meaningful transformation was within Bruce himself. He went on to dedicate his life to becoming one of the best that ever lived. As an actor, he challenged stereotypes in Hollywood, refusing roles that typecast him. In his short life, he paved the way for future generations and set an example that continues to inspire and comfort fans to this day.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There was always something special about Bruce Lee.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Enter the Dragon theme song plays\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>The martial artist and actor was one of the first Asian stars in Hollywood. His path to fame wasn’t easy, but it paved the way for other Asian Americans to do the same today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>There’s this famous thing Bruce said…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I said empty your mind…be formless, shapeless…like water. Water can flow or crash. Be water, my friend…”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>It’s the cornerstone of his martial arts philosophy…as much a mantra for how to live as a fighting technique. Be adaptable. Go with the flow … even if you’re riding a tidal wave.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce was a disruptor in the kung fu world…a young upstart who wanted to do things differently. Though he would eventually become this legendary figure in American culture, it took him years to hone his own style and philosophy. And many of the early moments that shaped him, the ones that made him \u003cem>the\u003c/em> Bruce Lee we see on the silver screen, they took place in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I assume there’s people alive still in Oakland and San Francisco who know him and have great stories to share. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That’s Bay Curious listener Sam Hopkins. Sam’s first exposure to Bruce Lee was in the star’s most famous film — Enter the Dragon.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>Most people would say like the defining one in the one that first like drew me into him and pulled me in. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>As a kid, he loved Bruce’s kung-fu moves. But as an adult he’s come to appreciate how brave Bruce was. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>The thing that really inspires me about him is that he changed how people think. And that’s so powerful, like how they view themselves and how they view others and pushed against like all these stereotypes and all these limitations that Hollywood was putting on him and society was putting on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Sam’s become kind of obsessed. He’s watched documentaries about Bruce Lee, been to museum exhibits about him and located local spots in San Francisco and Oakland that were meaningful in Bruce’s life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>And I just have always wondered though, why isn’t there more in terms of honoring his legacy and all the great things that he did in his time here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>There’s this one story Sam has heard over and over about “The Showdown in Oakland,” a fight between Bruce and a kung fu fighter from San Francisco that has become lore in the martial arts world. It’s one of the early moments in Bruce’s career that puts him on the map, and it’s practically a legend at this point. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Sam Hopkins: \u003c/strong>I’ve heard different versions of it. So I’m just so curious, like which one is like the most accurate?\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>This is Bay Curious. The show where we answer listener questions about the San Francisco Bay Area. I’m Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>KQED’s Elize Manoukian set out to separate fact from fiction and understand what role the Bay Area played in Bruce Lee’s life.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> There’s an interview Bruce Lee gives in 1966, right as his star is about to rise. He’s still a bit of an unknown…it seems like the interviewer doesn’t know who he is.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>I think his name is Bruce Lee…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In the interview, Bruce explains to a mainstream American audience what kung fu is, using the Chinese pronunciation.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>Well, gung fu is a Chinese form of combat. Arts like karate or jiu jitsu derive from gung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then the journalist asks him: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival: \u003c/strong>Don’t you have some karate schools in San Francisco or something?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>There are multiple issues with that question, but Bruce homes in on just one.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: In Oakland, really. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even at this early point in his Hollywood career, the difference between the two Bay Area cities was important to him. You’ll soon hear why.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce lived in the Bay Area only a short while — just a few years — but his time in Oakland and San Francisco would go on to have a major influence on his career, and some have argued, on the way we think about martial arts in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> It’s a story in a way of how gung fu…how Kung Fu becomes American\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s historian and cultural critic Jeff Chang, the author of a recent Bruce Lee biography, “Water, Mirror, Echo: Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I asked him to tell me about Bruce’s life here, starting from the very beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Bruce was born in the Bay Area. He is there because his parents are on a tour. His dad is a famous Cantonese opera singer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And while his dad is performing in San Francisco, his mom becomes pregnant\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So he’s born in this segregated hospital in 1940.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In San Francisco’s Chinese Hospital, which is still open today. His mom, Grace, names her baby Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Soon after, the family heads back to Hong Kong, which is quickly becoming the heart of Asia’s film industry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce’s dad, Hoi Cheun, transitions from singing opera to acting in movies. And at a young age, Bruce starts acting too.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>So the directors are looking at who’s this kid. He’s so, he’s so fascinating. He’s got so much energy. He loves to be. He’s like a born showperson. Let’s put him in the movies. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Bruce Lee speaking Cantonese in The Kid\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Bruce at age 10, in a movie called the Kid. It’s about a tough street urchin with a heart of gold. The film premieres in 1950, and it’s a smash success in Hong Kong. But being famous is hard on Bruce, and he starts getting picked on in school.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>This is Bruce Lee’s martial arts origin story. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And so he learns to try to figure out ways of protecting himself.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And eventually, he meets a seifu, a Gongfu seifu named Yipman. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Yipman is a legendary figure in 1950s Hong Kong. He trains Bruce in a discipline called Wing Chun. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At this point, Hong Kong’s youth culture is obsessed with kung fu and streetfighting. Kids would literally challenge each other and battle on school rooftops.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Turns out that Bruce really loves the taste of blood on his lips.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cem>Music end\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce has a short fuse and loves “talking with his hands,”. During his teen years, he gets a bad boy, James-Dean-kinda reputation in Hong Kong. He even gets kicked out of school for fighting. One day, when Bruce is 18 years old, the police come to his parents house, and tell them that if he stays in Hong Kong, he’ll be arrested. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And his parents are like, that’s it. You know, the police are after you, like the gangs are after you. You’re not, you’re not going to be here anymore. We’re going to send you back to the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Remember, Bruce was born in the U.S., so he’s a citizen. In 1959, his parents give him $100 and send him to live with one of their friends in San Francisco Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce gets a job, his first non-acting job, at a restaurant.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He hates it. He can’t take it. Like, this is beneath me. You know, I’ve been on the movie screen, and now you got me cutting carrots. Like, no, I’m not, I’m not about that life. So he quits in a day. And his guardian is like, OK, — Well, I guess we have to have you teach cha-cha then.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Oh, I forgot to mention: Bruce is an amazing dancer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Cha-cha was a huge craze in 1950s Hong Kong, and Bruce is super athletic. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So while learning English, Bruce starts teaching cha-cha to San Francisco’s Chinese community to make money. But he’s bored. And restless. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he’s like, where are the fighters here? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He can’t help himself. There’s some part of him that just needs to feel the \u003cem>rush\u003c/em> of a real, flesh-and-blood fight again. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So he walks into a kung fu school and challenges the other students to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And they run him out immediately.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s the first in a long list of grievances San Francisco’s kung fu community will have with Bruce. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>As if his parents read the writing on the wall, they decide to send him to Seattle.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>His parents are like, OK, you’re going to get in trouble again. We’re sending you to a place where there’s less Chinese, there’s less distractions. And you’re going to finish your fricking diploma, and you’re going to get a college degree.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> He never gets that diploma. In fact, Bruce doesn’t last long in Seattle, although he does end up getting married to a woman named Linda while he’s there. The Bay Area is the heart of the West Coast’s martial arts scene, and Bruce wants to get back there. So he drops out of the University of Washington, moves his young family, and gambles everything…on the Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen Price: \u003c/strong>Back in Oakland, Bruce meets some folks who help him refine his theories and practice of martial arts. More on that when we come back. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sponsor break\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> The year is 1964, a time of major cultural change. Young people are questioning everything about U.S. society. And Bruce Lee, who has just moved back to the Bay Area as a 24-year-old college dropout, is going through his own personal revolution. He isn’t just studying martial arts; he has some radical ideas about its future. And he finds some enthusiastic disciples in the Bay Area. Elize Manoukian takes us to Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Yeah, this is the old house: 3039 Monticello. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>That’s Greglon Lee, a kung fu sifu based in Berkeley. He’s showing me the funky, yellow bungalow in the East Oakland hills where he once lived with Bruce Lee. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce spent a lot of time here, and he was basically training 10-12 hours a day.\u003cstrong> \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Even as a college student, Bruce had picked up kung fu students across the West Coast. And one of the most dedicated was a man named James Yimm Lee, Greglon’s dad. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was one of his top students; my dad had been training with him for a few years.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was a local streetfighter and bodybuilder. He became fascinated with kung fu, wanted to modernize and popularize it. He knew Bruce could help. So he convinced Bruce and his family to move in with him and his kids in the East Bay. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>You come down to Oakland. We got you covered, roof over your head, and you can train and do whatever you want.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James filled his garage with a bunch of diy equipment — punching pads, shields, leg stretchers. The two men scrutinized reels of Mohammed Ali boxing fights. They practiced what worked from classical styles of martial arts and threw away the rest. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>To get better when you’re already good ain’t easy. You really have to break things down completely. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>James was helping Bruce invent a NEW style of martial arts that tried to break away from set technique completely. Classical kung fu was too rigid, they said. Instead, they experimented with fusing wing chun, boxing, street fighting with some heavy doses of Daoist philosophy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The individual has to really do their own work. There’s no magic pill. There’s no magic movement to martial arts. It’s getting to know yourself. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce’s homegrown fighting style would eventually become known as Jeet Kun Do, or as Greg calls it, JKD. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>And you’ve got to remember the Cha Cha taught him really good footwork and how to change timing, which is really the key to J. K. D. It’s not static.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce and James gain some attention for their new fighting style. Students come from hundreds of miles away to study with them. They pick up enough disciples that they decide to open up a little studio on Broadway Street in Oakland, near what’s now auto row. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>My dad was twenty years older, but he let Bruce run everything. Because Bruce knew what he was doing and it was obvious that Bruce had it.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In Oakland, Bruce gains confidence in his approach to martial arts, and he’s convinced the San Francisco kung fu scene is \u003cem>backwards … \u003c/em>he’s not shy about sharing that opinion. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Bruce Lee biographer Jeff Chang again: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He’s basically saying, all of your schools, all the stuff they teach you: That’s all garbage. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And some people in San Francisco get wind of this.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They don’t have short-term memories. Like, they remember when Bruce first was there.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It all comes to a head in the summer of 1964. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bruce is promoting his Oakland school, in a kung fu demonstration at San Francisco’s Sun Sing Theater, the same stage where his dad performed opera, two decades earlier. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>During his demo, he starts critiquing the style of teaching in San Francisco, but in kind of a brash, 24-year-old way. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Everything that you’ve been taught is no good. Let me show you how a real martial artist does things. Provocative, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The air in the theater is hazy with cigarette smoke. And the crowd is full of San Francisco martial artists.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re just waiting for Bruce to make a wrong move.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Then he invites somebody on stage, and says, try to defend yourself using your style, and I’ll show you why mine’s better\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He wants to show the speed and accuracy of his punch. As it turns out, the guy that comes up to be on stage with him is somebody who’s deeply affiliated with the Chinatown koons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The koons are kung fu schools\u003cstrong>. \u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The volunteer blocks Bruce’s punch. Bruce tries again, and the kid blocks it again. Then, the kid puts up his fists, ready for a fight.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And everybody starts hooting and hollering, ’cause they’re cheering for the guy who came up from the audience. That’s their guy, right? He’s like a ringer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce is embarrassed. But he stops and collects himself… trying to refocus the message on what his school has to offer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he says, “If you want more, come and see me in Oakland.” And what he really means is, “My school is in Oakland. You’re welcome to come, we’ll train and that kind of thing.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But at this point, tempers are high. And to the riled-up crowd it sounds like Bruce is saying: “let’s finish what we started, meet me in Oakland.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>This spreads through the sort of underground pipeline, right? The coconut wireless really fast.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Soon every martial artist in the Bay Area is talking about what happened at the theater. And some San Francisco guys decide to challenge Bruce to a fight. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They want to see Bruce get his ass beaten.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So they recruit an up-and-coming martial artist named Wong Jack-man, telling him, you’re our best hope to take this guy down. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Now, Wong wasn’t at the Sun Sing Theater, and by all accounts, didn’t really seem to know what he was walking into.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>WongJack-man thinks he’s going to Oakland to fight a comparison fight. It’s a friendly kind of thing. Everybody goes out and has tea and dim sum afterwards, right?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Instead, he’s an unwitting participant in one of Bruce Lee’s most famous fights. The Showdown in Oakland. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s what happened according to Jeff and Greglon: \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They come to the studio at dusk on a November evening. And at the studio are James, James Yimm Lee, Bruce and Linda. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>I know that my dad did bring a gun just in case, just in case things got out of control.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Elize: It starts out friendly enough…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man reaches his hand out, and that Bruce, uh, sort of gives a faint instead. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>And lashes out with a punch \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>That is directed at Wong Jack-man’s eyes. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> So hard it leaves a mark.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And the realization that, Oh, Bruce is actually out for blood, like this is something serious. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce presses in. He uses low kicks and close-up punches.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Most people Bruce dealt with, he could take them out in about five seconds. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>But Wong sidesteps the assault and deflects with his forearms. He uses long and graceful kicks and wide diagonal blows — like axes coming down — he hits Bruce HARD in the neck, and gets Bruce into a headlock.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Like holding his neck under his arm.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man could have won right there. But he lets go. He considers Bruce an opponent, not a mortal enemy. Bruce seizes the opportunity and attacks.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Wong Jack-man started running.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>And he trips on a floorboard and falls down. Bruce pounces on him. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>They’re on the floor, with Bruce yelling, “You lost, admit it!” Their friends jump in and separate the two. And that was that. A pretty messy fight, ended by a floorboard. Not at all the resolution to the Oakland- San Francisco rivalry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Except the story doesn’t end there. The fight at the studio was just the beginning. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>It became a story that just passed word of mouth. The word gets back to Hong Kong.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>The magazines picked up about Bruce and Wong Jack-man, all kinds of rumors. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>In one story, Wong Jack-man kills Bruce. In others, Bruce is defending the honor of an actress from Hong Kong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But the biggest story — the one that has prevailed — is that the fight was about who gets to learn kung fu. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Very famously, the fight has been portrayed as this thing where Bruce was defending his right to teach non-Chinese people.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>It’s part of the mythology around Bruce Lee, that he not only popularizes kung fu…\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He opens the doors for non-Chinese to kind of study it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Though it’s a compelling story, it’s just not true. After all, this is San Francisco in the 60s we’re talking about here. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang:\u003c/strong> The record shows that the koons in San Francisco had already opened themselves to non-Chinese. And so it just doesn’t stand up to, to that kind of scrutiny.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So a lot of the myths surrounding the Showdown are not true. But for Bruce, it was still a turning point.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The fight was the first true test of his ideas. Wong Jack-man represented all of the things Bruce and James had been arguing needed to change. But it wasn’t the easy victory he had expected, says Greglon. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee: \u003c/strong>Bruce changed his training completely. So actually, the fight with Wong Jack-man helped Bruce go to another level. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Martial arts is ultimately about fighting yourself, Bruce Lee would write later in life. You train to control your impulses, to empty your mind. And this fight showed him he wasn’t there yet. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He knew he needed to work harder. And get better. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Greglon Lee:\u003c/strong> Iron sharpens iron. You don’t sharpen your knife or sword on wood or a piece of butter. So you always have to have an adversary, an opponent in fighting to get better.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The timing of the Showdown would turn out to be important for Bruce. Because he would need these lessons as he embarked on a new phase of his career. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Shortly after the Showdown in Oakland, something unexpected happens. Bruce’s wife gets a call.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>Out of the blue one afternoon. Linda gets a call, and it’s this Hollywood producer. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The producer’s barber saw Bruce do a kung fu demonstration earlier that year…and Bruce gets the role of Kato, the sidekick of a TV superhero named the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of martial arts fighting from The Green Hornet.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show only ran one season. And Kato doesn’t have many lines. But Bruce’s character, who uses martial arts to save the Green Hornet episode after episode, becomes a hit. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>As the management looks at the numbers of toys being sold, they’re like, well, Kato’s outselling the Green Hornet.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The show gives Bruce a chance to show off his kung fu to a national audience. For many viewers, it’s their first time seeing martial arts. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But Bruce still can’t break into the mainstream. When the show gets canceled, Bruce struggles to find new work.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He can’t get a single job in Hollywood for a while unless it’s as a fight choreographer or in a sort of stereotypically, like, you know, oriental type role that he would refuse to play. And he comes to realize at some point, well, actually, they don’t see me as a main character. And so he has to, at that point, make a choice.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>So at age 29, he decides, forget this. I’m going back to Asia, where I’m gonna be a superstar. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And in Hong Kong, his career explodes. He does a movie called \u003cem>Big Boss\u003c/em>, and then another called \u003cem>Fist of Fury.\u003c/em> After one screening, the audience was so excited, they actually tore the seats out of the movie theater. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>At this point that, Bruce is the largest star by far in Asia.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>After a few years of mega-stardom, he writes, directs and stars in a third movie called \u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em>, where he faces off against a then-unknown actor named Chuck Norris. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>He joked with his mother. Mom, in this movie, I get to beat up a white guy.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>\u003cem>The Way of the Dragon\u003c/em> was Bruce’s crossover hit. Suddenly Bruce’s movies are being watched back in the U.S.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>They’re being imported, they’re dubbed, and they’re packing the theatres.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Finally, Hollywood notices and comes crawling back. Warner Bros approaches him and his manager in Hong Kong about a new film they want him to star in. And this time, Bruce Lee gets to call the shots. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here he is in an interview from 1971:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> So are you going to go to the United States and be famous or you going to try and eat your cake and have it too?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> I am going to do both because you see I have already made up my mind that in the United States something about the Oriental needs to be shown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee interviewer archival:\u003c/strong> Hollywood sure hasn’t.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival:\u003c/strong> You better believe it man, it’s all chop chop and with the eyes.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>He directs the fight scenes, negotiates higher pay and takes ownership of the script. And he names the movie — \u003cem>Enter the Dragon\u003c/em>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Originally, the writer and director saw Bruce’s character as an Asian James Bond. But Bruce Lee thought that that was too Western … too imperialist. The character, he said, should be a Shaolin monk. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Jeff Chang: \u003c/strong>These are ideas that he’s adopted from Taoism that he’s been teaching to other folks since he was 19 years old.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon clip:\u003c/strong> Don’t think, feel. It’s like a finger pointing to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you will miss all of the heavenly glory.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>Bruce knew he was on the cusp of global stardom. But in his intense focus on his career, he may have ignored signs from his body that something was deeply wrong. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>In May 1973, he has a seizure on set. The doctors can’t find any reason for it, so they allow him to return to work. He continues traveling and working hard. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>A few months later, he has a headache, so he takes an aspirin and a tranquilizer and falls asleep. He never wakes up. He’s only 32 years old. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip:\u003c/strong> Hong Kong was stunned, and as the word spread, people read with shock and disbelief that Bruce Lee was dead.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian:\u003c/strong> A 1973 documentary “Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend” shows a crowd gathering outside the funeral parlor.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee: The Man and The Legend clip: \u003c/strong>Several hundred extra police were detailed to try to control the crowd; no one could believe that someone like Bruce Lee, so young, so fit, could just die.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>His death is still a mystery. The autopsy reveals a cerebral edema, which is a swelling of the brain caused by trauma, and other factors, but could not determine a cause.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Enter the Dragon, Bruce’s triumphant return to Hollywood, premieres just days later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Enter the Dragon trailer:\u003c/strong> What do you know about Han? We are investigating corruption….\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>The film was a box office hit and cemented Bruce Lee’s legacy as not just a martial artist, but as a Hollywood star. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>For the first time, Americans finally see Bruce Lee as he wants to be seen: his confidence, his physique, and his philosophy all on display. Here he is in 1971 on the Pierre Berton Show. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Bruce Lee archival: \u003c/strong>You see, the idea is running water never grow stale, so you got to just keep on flowing.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Elize Manoukian: \u003c/strong>If you watch Bruce Lee movies now, this is the man you see: disciplined, polished, cool. But Hollywood only got the finished product. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The Bay Area’s Bruce was much more raw, reckless, full of dreams and ambition. Though his time here was brief, the battles he fought shaped his philosophy and honed his skills so he could become the superstar we know today. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was KQED’s Elize Manoukian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks to Sam Hopkins for asking today’s question. And he’ll be glad to know Bruce Lee is getting a little more recognition locally.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>California recently designated May 17 Bruce Lee Day to commemorate the date the fighter moved to the U.S. as a teenager. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>At the site of Bruce Lee’s Oakland studio, there’s a street sign designating the intersection “Bruce Lee Way.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And the Chinese Historical Society of America also has a cool exhibit about Bruce’s life and career at their museum in San Francisco’s Chinatown.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Thanks also to Charlie Russo, and Rick Wing, whose writing about Bruce Lee and the showdown in Oakland were helpful in the making of this story.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is a production of member-supported KQED in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale, and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "__life-and-legacy-of-ishi-last-of-californias-yahi-tribe",
"title": "The Life and Legacy of Ishi, the Last of California's Yahi Tribe",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious spoke with KQED’s Katherine Monahan about Ishi’s life and legacy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6827825325\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\n\n\n\n\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n",
"innerContent": [
"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n",
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n",
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"\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n"
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"innerHTML": "\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "Get to know the man himself — not just as a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003cbr>\u003cbr>In 1911, the last member of the Yahi, a tribe of indigenous Californians, walked into the town of Oroville in search of food. He’d spend years in hiding, seeking safety from the state-sponsored genocide of indigenous people that had taken place for decades. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He was taken into protective custody by police while newspapers across the country trumpeted the news in large headlines that said things like “Last Wild Indian.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We don’t know his real name because, according to his traditions, he never shared it. Instead, we know him as \u003cem>Ishi\u003c/em>, which in his native language means “man.” \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Scientists brought Ishi to live in San Francisco, where they studied his language and traditional practices, and against all odds, he built a life. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Today, his story raises questions about how he was treated, ethics in the field of anthropology, and how he’s portrayed today. But Native people want to be sure we keep talking about the man himself — not just a victim of his circumstances — but for the remarkable human being he was.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious spoke with KQED’s Katherine Monahan about Ishi’s life and legacy. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cfigure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-megaphone wp-block-embed-megaphone\">\u003cdiv class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\nhttps://playlist.megaphone.fm?e=KQINC6827825325\n\u003c/div>\u003c/figure>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Let’s begin in the late 1800s. When Ishi was still living with his tribe, the Yahi. What was the situation at the time for indigenous Californians?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Dire. In the half century following the Gold Rush, their population dropped by about 95%. Many of them were killed in massacres . . . that were being carried out by the \u003ca href=\"https://amindian.ucla.edu/publication/an-american-genocide/\">state and federal government\u003c/a> in many cases.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>I spoke with Devlin Gandy with the California Grizzly Alliance – he’s a citizen of the Cherokee Nation – about what California was like when Ishi was born around 1860. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>The \u003ca href=\"https://governors.library.ca.gov/addresses/s_01-Burnett2.html\">war of extermination\u003c/a> has been proposed and begun by Governor Burnett and is now part of just California state policy. And, you know, Ishi’s people… Their traditional homelands were some of the regions that were most impacted by mining and experienced some of the most violent atrocities that we have recorded.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then just a severe reduction in food supply. The gold mining industry filled California’s rivers with massive amounts of silt and pollution, which destroyed the salmon habitat. Settlers hunted out most of the game. And farmers built fences which kept the indigenous people from the acorns that were their staple food source.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So for all these reasons the life that Native Californians had been living, became very difficult if not impossible.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>And where was Ishi as all this was happening around the state?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He grew up in the foothills near Mount Lassen, about 20 miles southeast of Redding. This was the territory of his tribe, the Yahi, which was a southern branch of the Yana tribe. It’s a really rugged country, jagged volcanic rock and very steep canyons.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>I talked to Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi, and he described the terrain as more vertical than horizontal, more sand than soil.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>That country tried to kill me more than once. But these people lived there for thousands of years, and it was very, very impressive.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>The Yahi followed the migratory deer herd, and fished. But they were almost completely killed in a series of massacres in the 1860s — \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/fightingmillcree00anderich/page/n9/mode/2up\">hunted down\u003c/a> to just a very small group. Ishi would have been a child at the time. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>And he and the few other survivors went into hiding for about forty years — \u003ca href=\"https://www.thetedkarchive.com/library/ishi-in-two-worlds\">moving silently\u003c/a>, always covering their footprints with leaves. Walking through creeks or scaling canyon walls with ropes to avoid making any trails that might give their presence away.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>So his childhood was one of hiding and fear, one of really trying to find safety and going more into remote areas that they would not normally live. Trying to find a place to live.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>In 1908 a surveying party came across their village – and by then there were just four Yahi left, Ishi and his family. They ran away when the strangers arrived. And then three years later, Ishi came walking into the town of Oroville. Alone.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have any idea what happened to the three family members last seen around him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Well, his hair was singed short, which was a sign of mourning. Ishi later said that after the surveyors scattered his tiny tribe they never reunited, and Ishi was then just with his mother until she died shortly after. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>But we don’t really know what happened. We just have these pieces of a puzzle – there’s also \u003ca href=\"https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ishi-and-Companion-at-Lamin-Mool-painting-by-Frank-Day_fig9_259926704\">a painting\u003c/a> by a man from the Maidu tribe, Frank Day, that shows Ishi tending to a companion with a stomach wound. Day said he saw this when he was a small child with his father near Oroville – just a few days before Ishi showed up in town. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Let’s talk about Ishi’s arrival in town. After the massacre he lived through, and the other encounters he’d had with settlers. It’s hard to imagine the state he would have to be in to risk leaving the relative safety of his homelands and walking into town. To these people who have not proven to be trustworthy. What do we know about that story? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He walked onto the property of a slaughterhouse in Oroville in August 1911. He was about 50 years old. He was very thin. He was alone. A teenager called Ad Kessler was a worker at the slaughterhouse. He found Ishi by a corral. I have some \u003ca href=\"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmu4bV-mldc\">tape\u003c/a> of Kessler talking about it decades later. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>So I shimmied over this fence, and I dropped down alongside this Indian, and I pushed him over, raised this club. He showed no resistance, he was scared, he muttered something like cheku cheku. So I see he was an old man, and I see he wasn’t properly clothed, so I reached down and I got him and I pulled him back up into a sitting position. And I talked to him. I got no answer.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Kessler said he then called for the sheriff, and while he waited with Ishi he found that they were able to communicate some using signs. Ishi motioned that he’d like a cigarette, and Kessler gave him one, and they laughed together when the sulphur from the match got in Ishi’s nose. When the sheriff came, Kessler rode along with Ishi to the local jail. The staff there gave Ishi a bowl of beans – which he devoured. And eventually they led him to a cell. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ad Kessler Archival: \u003c/strong>And I felt sorry for a man. There he was, all alone, he didn’t have the least idea of what was going to happen to him. Closed the door, turned the key in it. And he stood right behind them bars, and looked.\u003cbr>\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\u003c/strong>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What did they do with him?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He stayed at the jail for about a week. Indigenous people from different tribes were called in to try to communicate with him, but no one spoke his language. All the papers ran stories, “Wild Man Caught in Oroville, Last Aborigine!”, stuff like that. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>When the anthropology faculty at the University of California heard about it, one of them caught a train up right away, with a list of Yana words – and he was able to talk with Ishi a little bit and figure out that he must be the last, or one of the last, of the Yahi tribe. And so they arranged to bring him back to San Francisco. \u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We’ll pause it here for a quick break. When we return: Ishi’s life in San Francisco. Stay with us.\u003cbr>\u003cem>\u003cbr>\u003c/em>\u003cem>Sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> So Ishi is brought from a jail in Oroville to San Francisco. Where does he live while he’s here?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He was given a room at the University of California’s anthropology museum, which at that time was on the UCSF Parnassus campus — kind of wedged between Mount Sutro and Golden Gate Park. The museum had living quarters with a kitchen and bathrooms, and a bedroom where the caretakers would stay overnight, or indigenous people while they were working with the linguists, and that’s where Ishi lived.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors in the anthropology department, which was led by Alfred Kroeber, they had him over for dinner, took him to the theater, the beach. Everybody said Ishi was exceptionally polite and dignified and just really nice. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The professors would ask him to tell his stories and sing his traditional songs and they would record those onto wax cylinders – which was the technology of the time. Some of those recordings have been restored and so let’s listen to one from 1911 – here’s Ishi singing a song about gambling.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://digicoll.lib.berkeley.edu/record/187940?ln=en&v=%2Caud\">\u003cem>Wax cylinder recording or Ishi singing\u003c/em>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>So Ishi helped the anthropologists learn about Yahi language and practices. And then \u003ca href=\"https://www.newspapers.com/image/82721800/?match=1&terms=museum%20of%20anthropology%20affiliated%20colleges%20ishi\">on Sundays\u003c/a> he would do public demonstrations outside the museum. He would make arrowheads and start fires with a stick, stuff like that. And people would come and watch. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Do we have a sense of what Ishi thought about his new life?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Soon after his arrival at the museum, an agent came from the Bureau of Indian Affairs to ask him, do you want to leave? Would you rather go back to where you’re from? Would you rather go to a reservation? And \u003ca href=\"https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/nebraska-paperback/9780803222502/ishi-in-three-centuries/\">Ishi said no\u003c/a>. He said he wanted to stay and that he wanted to live there and die there.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>So, I won’t speculate on his happiness or fulfillment – but he was presented with alternatives and he turned them down.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>He ended up getting a job as an assistant janitor and general helper at the museum, and he stayed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>What was his life like outside of the museum? On the streets of San Francisco – in what, 1911?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, 1911-1916. He \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/188/mode/2up\">learned basic English\u003c/a>; he got a bank account and two cats. He liked to ride the street car and the ferry. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Here’s Devlin Gandy again:\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>He would go around Golden Gate Park. but he also, you know, visited different merchants, different shops, different cafes, and the folks there knew him personally, and he would go and visit with them. He was a really known, loved figure around town.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>He became good friends with some of the kids in the neighborhood and would play with them in the city’s parks. One of them, Fred H. Zumwalt Jr, later said in a letter: “He was a kind, gentle, understanding and patient man, given over to laughter at my clumsy efforts to copy him; nevertheless, I can still walk silently in the woods and come within a few feet of deer.”\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Ishi also liked to visit the patients in the university hospital, which was next to the museum. And he became friends with one of the doctors there who was really into archery and \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/yahiarcherysaxton00poperich/page/n5/mode/2up\">they would practice\u003c/a> archery together. So, he made a new life.\u003cbr>\u003cbr>\u003cem>Music\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>How long did he live in the museum? \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>About four and a half years. He died of tuberculosis in 1916. Ishi didn’t have much immunity to illnesses that had arrived from Europe. And the rate of tuberculosis infection among Native Americans was \u003ca href=\"https://www.nlm.nih.gov/nativevoices/timeline/641.html\">several times higher\u003c/a> than it was for other Americans –- in fact it \u003ca href=\"https://www.cdc.gov/tb-surveillance-report-2024/data/race-ethnicity.html\">still is\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Even in Ishi’s time, there were ethical questions about how he was being treated. What were some of those concerns?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Given Ishi’s lack of immunity, bringing him to a major city, to live in a museum that was regularly visited by thousands of people, was a known risk. As Thomas Waterman – the main anthropologist who worked with him — \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">said in a letter\u003c/a>, “A museum is a hell of a place for a fragile Indian.” Waterman also said after Ishi’s death that he was “the best friend I had in the world” but that “we were certainly none too soon in obtaining the material from him” — meaning the language recordings and arrows and stuff.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>So you see this mix of what seems to be true affection, with a kind of ruthless science. And you see it again in how Ishi’s remains were treated. Ishi had told the university staff that he did not want to be autopsied — which was the practice at the university hospital — and they did it anyway. Alfred Kroeber, the director of the museum, was away in Europe when Ishi died, and he did send back a letter saying not to autopsy him. To quote the letter, “If there is any talk about the interests of science, say for me that science can go to hell. We propose to stand by our friends.” But they \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/212/mode/2up\">autopsied him anyway\u003c/a>. And removed his brain and weighed it and put it in a jar and Kroeber later sent it to the Smithsonian. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Were his remains ever returned to the tribes?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Yes, in the 1990s. There was some initial confusion and denial from the University of California and the Smithsonian – it seems they had \u003ca href=\"https://wwnorton.com/books/Ishis-Brain/\">lost track of Ishi’s brain\u003c/a>. But they found it and repatriated it along with his ashes to the Pit River Tribe and the Redding Rancheria, which were determined to be Ishi’s closest living relatives. And the tribal members did a ceremony to put him to rest in an undisclosed location near Mt. Lassen. I reached out to those tribes for comment, but didn’t hear back.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>The anthropology museum, which is now at UC Berkeley, still has \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/catalog/eee9628c-9673-489f-bc28-2262acc06aea\">Ishi’s death mask\u003c/a>. That was a cast that was taken of his face when he died. Bits of his hair were used to make the hair and eyelashes. Devlin Gandy had a chance to see it when he was working in the museum.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>It sticks with me. It’s something that should never have been made and it’s something that the university should have been willing to give back a very long time ago.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>I reached out to UC Berkeley and they said they are committed to repatriation, but have not received official requests for Ishi’s death mask or the several hundred other objects still in their \u003ca href=\"https://portal.hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/?f%5Bobjmaker_ss%5D%5B%5D=Ishi&per_page=50&view=gallery\">Ishi collection\u003c/a> — his clothes, the tools he made, etc.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>They have apologized publicly for their treatment of him and they removed the name of Kroeber Hall in 2021 largely because of it. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>So when people look back at that time now, over a hundred years later, what do they say about his living in a museum?\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>A lot of people find it very disturbing that he was studied and effectively put on display. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy: \u003c/strong>There’s a lot of ways in which Kroeber treated Ishi as a zoo specimen, and really didn’t let Ishi have a life that I think anybody would find dignity in.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>And then other people say, where else could he have gone? \u003ca href=\"https://archive.org/details/medicalhistoryof00pope/page/192/mode/2up\">Ishi said\u003c/a> he didn’t want to return to his homeland, because everybody was dead, it was inhabited by evil spirits, and there wasn’t enough food there. Legally he didn’t have the right to travel freely anyway; Native Americans didn’t get citizenship until 1924. And the reservations in the early 1900s had awful public health conditions, according to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Here’s Steve Schoonover, who wrote a book about the Yahi.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Steve Schoonover: \u003c/strong>It might’ve been the best opportunity at that time. I mean, the people who were in California were genocidal towards the Indians. And the fact that this guy had a place to live out the last of his life comfortably, perhaps a little more on display than is appropriate. I don’t know. It’s hard to put myself back in what happened in those days.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>Ishi for his part said on a couple of occasions that the museum was home. So it could be that he chose that life as a way to keep going.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Devlin Gandy asks us to try to focus on Ishi himself when we consider his story, and the incredible strength he showed.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Devlin Gandy:\u003c/strong> It’s easier to sometimes to focus at this point about how bad the circumstances were. And at the same time, in those horrible circumstances, he really had such a tenacity and such a love for life. You know, he’s someone who had gone through so many hardships and, you know, through it all was still able to find friendship, able to find joy, able, to find wonder in the world.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Music\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Thanks for sharing this story, Katherine.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katherine Monahan: \u003c/strong>My pleasure.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Katherine Monahan is a reporter with Bay Curious at KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>If you value stories like the one you just heard, consider becoming a member of KQED. These programs are only possible with the financial support from our listeners. And membership comes with some awesome perks – like access to PBS Passport, KQED’s pledge-free stream, and discounts to cultural events all over the Bay Area. Learn more at \u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/a>. \u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED. Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen Price.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>We get extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\n\n\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"slug": "why-specialized-mariners-are-required-on-every-ship-sailing-into-san-francisco-bay",
"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay",
"publishDate": 1783591252,
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"headTitle": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.[aside postID=news_12088210 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-11-BL-KQED.jpg']“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"excerpt": "San Francisco Bay is notorious in the shipping world for its tricky waters. That’s why bar pilots — specially trained mariners — board every ship entering or exiting the bay and guide it to safety.",
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"title": "Why Specialized Mariners Are Required on Every Ship Sailing Into San Francisco Bay | KQED",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>On a sunny day, the beauty of San Francisco Bay rivals almost any place in the world. The stately bridges boldly cross its watery expanse, dreamy islands call out for exploration, green or golden hills rise up on all sides and the twinkling lights of the city sparkle in the distance. But on a foggy, windy day, that same paradise can be treacherous for ships coming in and out of the Golden Gate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why all ships over 750 gross tons — about 150 feet or longer — are required to use a special mariner who knows the local conditions when they enter or exit the bay. Known as bar pilots, these local guides board vessels about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, take charge of the ship and guide it safely under the bridges and through the bay to its anchorage spot or port berth. They also help move vessels within the bay, like from anchorage to port, for example.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Erik Udd often sees the bar pilot speedboat depart from Pier 9, where the bar pilots are headquartered, as he cycles his pedicab along the Embarcadero.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve seen the boats, and I’ve seen them heading out towards the Golden Gate, but I never thought about the process,” Udd said. So he asked Bay Curious: “What do they do? How does it work? Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>How the bar pilots came to be\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>There are a lot of reasons San Francisco Bay is a tricky port to enter. First, there’s a large sandbar outside the mouth of the Golden Gate with only a narrow channel through it that’s deep enough for ships to navigate. Then there’s the weather — dense fog, strong winds and winter storms. Lastly, the currents can be deadly and pull ships off course.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For all these reasons, many Gold Rush-era ships foundered and sank on their way into the bay. And sunken ships are bad for the flow of commerce. They create additional maritime hazards and gum up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089870\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"wp-image-12089870 size-full\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-22-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A pilot boat operator navigates a pilot boat in the San Francisco Bay. The pilots guide large ships along California’s coast to ports in San Francisco Bay and beyond. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089871\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089871\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-28-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Ships sit at anchor in the San Francisco Bay in areas known as ‘anchor buckets,’ where commercial vessels can remain for extended periods. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time,” said Anne McIntyre, business director for the San Francisco Bar Pilots. “We were founded in 1850. The first thing the California legislature did was pass the Pilotage Act, and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Evidence of this long history lines the walls of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. The first ships they served were sailing ships, but soon steam-powered vessels came on the scene, and eventually, diesel engines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089869\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089869\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-01-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur points to historic photos of early bar pilot boats at the San Francisco Bar Pilots headquarters in San Francisco. The San Francisco Bar Pilot Association was founded in 1850 and is one of the oldest maritime organizations on the Pacific Coast. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>In the early days, “the pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then climb up the ladder,” said Captain Cevan Lesieur, a bar pilot with more than 10 years of experience.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He has piloted hundreds of ships through the bay’s waters and shook his head at the idea of one man braving the fog and wind alone in a boat powered only by his own strength.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with, these people were just tougher than we are nowadays,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>What’s it like being a bar pilot today?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>That’s not to say being a bar pilot today is easy. They have to navigate many types of waterways – including through the open ocean, up and down the Stockton and Sacramento rivers, under several bridges and through a congested central bay. They also pilot all kinds of vessels from massive cargo ships to cruise ships, tankers to bulkers, yachts to car ships.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most harrowing part of a bar pilot’s job is open water boarding. Here’s how it works: when a ship approaches San Francisco from the open ocean, it meets up with a station boat that’s always waiting 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. The crew on that boat rotates weekly, but the bar pilots work 365 days a year in all weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089866\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089866\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-34-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Capt. Cevan LeSieur (left) prepares to board the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089879\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089879\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"847\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2000x662.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-1536x508.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych4-2048x678.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: A bar pilot boat pulls up next to the Pasha Hawaii ship George III at the Port of Oakland. Right: Capt. Cevan LeSieur boards the Pasha Hawaii ship George III. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>As the ship approaches, it slows down to 9 knots — about 12 miles per hour — and the pilot boat comes alongside at the same speed. Then, timing the jump carefully, the bar pilot leaps across and grabs onto a ladder hanging on the side of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They are not tied into anything when they make this jump. When a ship leaves for sea, this process is reversed, with the bar pilot jumping from the ladder to the moving deck of the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>“Getting on can be tricky, and people have gone in the water,” said John Carlier, the president of the bar pilots association and a man with more than 30 years on the job. “But getting off and trying to get that small landing area on that deck while that boat’s surfing past you can be a bit sketchy.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>If a pilot does go in the water, he’s wearing a “float coat,” which turns into a lifejacket when it hits the water, complete with lights and a safety whistle. Pilots make the jump in all kinds of weather conditions.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“If it’s not safe, you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it,” Lesieur said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>He estimated that it’s only about once a year that the weather is so bad that the pilot can’t make the jump. If that happens, the pilot has to stay on the ship until the next port of call and then fly home, and no one wants that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Our question asker, Erik Udd, was interested in knowing if bar pilots receive hazard pay during bad weather, and the answer is no. But they are paid well — in the mid-six figures on average. They are paid by the shipping companies that use their services. There’s a \u003ca href=\"https://sfbarpilots.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Pilotage-Rates.pdf\">rate structure\u003c/a> based on the tonnage of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Becoming a bar pilot\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To become a bar pilot, a person must be a mid-career captain with decades of experience already. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Based on those scores, candidates are ranked on a list from which the bar pilots pull when apprenticeships open up. Once in the training program, most people spend close to two years shadowing more experienced pilots and learning all the different routes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento,” Carlier said. “There’s eight different sections. You’re going to do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089872\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089872\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-57-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Bar pilot Capt. Cevan LeSieur stands on the bridge of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>They also have to learn by heart over 670 aids to navigation — the lights and buoys — as well as the depth charts for the entire 5,000-square-mile area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite the expertise and local knowledge of the bar pilots, there have been instances when they made mistakes with devastating consequences. In 2007, a ship with a bar pilot in charge \u003ca href=\"https://response.restoration.noaa.gov/remembering-cosco-busan-overview-2007-oil-spill\">clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers\u003c/a> and 58,000 gallons of fuel oil spilled into the bay.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There were some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic [navigation] equipment, which definitely added to the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge,” Carlier said. “We actually bring our own electronic navigation equipment with us on board now. We also bring our GPS antennas.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Bar pilots at work\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The container ships that dock at the Port of Oakland to load and unload cargo are massive. The largest ones are as long as the Salesforce Tower is tall, but even more modestly sized ones are huge. The bar pilots have had to adapt as the ships have gotten bigger.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/services/vessels/george-iii\">George III is a container ship\u003c/a> operated by Pasha Hawaii that brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands. It runs the same route every two weeks, leaving Honolulu mostly empty save for a few commodities like macadamia nuts and rum, stops in Oakland to take on cargo and then heads down to Long Beach for more, before returning to Hawaii.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089946\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1600px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089946\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1600\" height=\"1079\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots.jpg 1600w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-160x108.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/GraphBarPilots-1536x1036.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1600px) 100vw, 1600px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Many of the ships operating in the bay are as long as a skyscraper is tall. \u003ccite>(Courtesy of the San Francisco Bar Pilots)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability if shipping stopped,” said Ed Washburn, senior vice president of fleet operations. “So it’s very sensitive.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The crew of the ship signs on for long stints, 10 to 14 weeks, but then gets just as much time off on land. When they’re on board, they work as a team to keep ship operations running smoothly, the loads balanced, and the engines purring.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>George III is a unique vessel because it runs on both diesel fuel and \u003ca href=\"https://www.pashahawaii.com/news-media/news/571/pasha-hawaii-marks-historic-milestone-mv-george-iii-first-lng-powered\">natural gas\u003c/a>, making it a cleaner vessel, but also one with more specific engineering needs. The crew eats, sleeps and works in shifts, building a strong sense of camaraderie.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089873\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089873\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-60-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A crew member on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III works on the bridge while docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089878\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2560px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089878\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2560\" height=\"846\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-scaled.jpg 2560w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2000x661.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-160x53.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-1536x507.jpg 1536w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-Diptych03-BL-2048x676.jpg 2048w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2560px) 100vw, 2560px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Left: Mark Bancroft, a second assistant engineer, works in the engine room of the Pasha Hawaii ship George III while docked at the Port of Oakland. Right: Crew members eat dinner on the George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>When it’s time to push off for sea, the bar pilot boards the ship and heads towards the ship’s bridge, at the top of the vessel. From there, he checks in with the captain, makes sure the equipment has all been tested and communicates with tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90-ton boats and no wind,” said Christian Barron, the bar pilot on duty as George III slowly inched away from the dock. “We’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089875\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089875\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-83-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">San Francisco bar pilot Christian Barron works on the Pasha Hawaii ship George III before departing the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089874\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089874\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-72-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A bar pilot boat is docked at the Port of Oakland. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12089876\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12089876\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/07/260114-BarPilots-101-BL-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Views of the San Francisco skyline from a bar pilot boat. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Once the ship was safely out of San Francisco Bay, Christian climbed down the ladder and jumped onto the station boat, where he waited for the next ship needing his services to arrive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>When the bar pilots are doing their jobs well, we landlubbers might not even know they exist. We only see the stocked grocery shelves, fuel at the gas pump and cruise ships awaiting passengers at the pier. But to make all of that happen, a bar pilot is working day or night, rain or shine, fog or no, to bring ships safely to port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> If you ask mariners, they’ll tell you, navigating a boat from the open ocean into the San Francisco Bay is notoriously treacherous.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s the dense fog that can make it hard to see. Strong currents constantly rearrange the sea floor, and can quickly throw a vessel off course. And finally – our bridges! If a boat were to strike a pillar it could be\u003cem> catastrophic. \u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That’s why captains of big ships aren’t allowed to navigate into port on their own. A specially trained mariner called a \u003cem>bar pilot\u003c/em> – hops aboard every ship that comes into San Francisco Bay, and takes over command.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>We got a question about those bar pilots, so we sent Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz to the Embarcadero to meet the man who asked it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik Udd said he’d meet me at the Embarcadero BART station. When I emerged on the escalator he was waiting for me, sitting at the helm of a pedicab.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s a great retirement job, I get exercise, it is perfect for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While we talk, he’s giving me a ride in his pedicab over to Pier 9…near the Exploratorium…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Oh, there goes a boat right now.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>While Erik pedals along the Embarcadero, he often notices the orange and white boats with the word “PILOT” painted on the side in giant, all caps letters.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>I’ve seen the boats and I’ve seen them heading out towards the golden gate, but I never thought about the process. What do they do? How does it work?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Erik wants to know everything about the bar pilots. Like, how does the pilot get onto one of those big container ships?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>How big of a boat needs a pilot to come into the bay?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What kind of training do the pilots go through?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Has anyone ever gone in the water? I’m sure someone has gone in the water. Maybe a better question is how many times?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>What happens when there’s a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>Do they get hazard pay when they’re out there in a storm?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>After all, some of the ships coming into the bay are truly massive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Erik Udd: \u003c/strong>It’s like a building is moving along across the water. Those things are huge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It’s quite a lot of questions, but I’m up to the task. Erik drops me off at Pier 9, where the Bar Pilots are headquartered. It’s the last office out at the end of the pier and sits behind a chain link fence. But once I’m inside, it looks like a fairly typical office building except the views of the bay are stunning.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Anne’s office has the best views in the city.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Cevan has been a pilot here for 12 years.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is the best and most interesting waterway to work on from my experience and most challenging. So I always said if I was gonna become a pilot, it’d be in San Francisco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Challenging because of the currents, the weather, the varied types of waterways and a congested central bay. Bar pilots can be called upon to move cruise ships, oil tankers, cargo ships, even really big yachts. And they have to be able to skillfully maneuver each type of vessel through narrowly dredged channels up the Sacramento and Stockton rivers and around smaller vessels.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We service all nine Bay Area ports. So we take ships all the way up to West Sacramento, to Stockton, down to Redwood City, even down to Monterey.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Here’s how it works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every ship over about 150 feet is required by law to use a bar pilot to enter and exit the bay, as well as to move from anchor to port within the bay. The pilots serve about 75-hundred vessels a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The most dramatic moment for a bar pilot happens out in the open ocean beyond the Golden Gate Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>We have what we call our station boat or ocean boats. And one is off shore at all times, about 11 miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge. And so we have crews out there that rotate every week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>When a large vessel is heading into San Francisco Bay, it meets up with the bar pilot boat out on the ocean and the bar pilot leaps from one to the other — you heard that right — and they are not tied into anything when they do it. Then they climb up a ladder on the outside of the ship.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Timing is critical, and especially the worse the weather, the more important timing is.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The ships are side-by-side going about 12-miles per hour when the pilot makes his jump. Cevan says there are some weather conditions that make the transfer too dangerous, but it doesn’t happen often…maybe once a year.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>If it’s not safe you don’t do it, but a lot of people would look at the conditions and not think it’s safe, but we have our own definition of it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the pilot is on board, he or she communicates with the captain and crew to bring the vessel safely under the Golden Gate Bridge, through the Bay and to its anchorage spot or port berth. The same happens in reverse, except the pilot has to jump off the ladder and onto the pilot boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Every bar pilot I talked to had a harrowing story about open water boarding, but Cevan’s is the funniest.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>I was boarding a car ship and the conditions were really bad and the ship and the pilot boat were going up and down and up and down. The wind was so bad, I took like 3 attempts. Finally we came alongside and I was on the platform and I jumped and landed on the deck and was laying there. And the mate looked down, and said you’re f**ing crazy!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Over their long history, pilots \u003cem>have\u003c/em> died and many have gone in the water, but it’s not common.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>In the modern era, we have not lost a pilot here. And the last time a pilot went into the water has been several years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>If a pilot does miss the jump, he’s wearing a “float coat” that becomes a life jacket when he hits the water, complete with lights and whistles.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And to answer our question asker, no, they don’t get hazard pay. But they are paid well… on average about 500,000 a year — all of that paid by the companies operating the boats they serve.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> We’re going to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how the bar pilots came to be and Katrina gets to shadow a pilot on a real job. Will she make the jump? All that coming up.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Sponsor message\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We were on a tour of bar pilot headquarters at Pier 9. Bay Curious editor and producer Katrina Schwartz found the halls are lined with evidence of the organization’s very \u003cstrong>long\u003c/strong> history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Captains Cevan Lesieur and Anne McIntyre are showing me cool photos and artifacts from bar pilot history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We have to stop at this one here. This is the original charter from the first California legislative session.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Anne points to an old looking document on the wall.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>The San Francisco Bar Pilots have been around a long time. We were founded in 1850. We’re the second oldest business in San Francisco behind Boudin Bread.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bar pilots are as old as the state of California. Even back in 1850, state legislators understood the future of San Francisco — California even — depended on the safe flow of ships in and out of the Bay. We couldn’t have all these shipwrecks gumming up the works.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Anne McIntyre: \u003c/strong>We were the first act of the first California Legislature. So the first thing the California legislature did was pass the pilotage act happened and that’s what founded the San Francisco Bar Pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Back then, the ships coming to San Francisco were mostly sailing vessels. By the end of the century coal-fired steam engines would come on the scene and later diesel engines. Each era required something different from the bar pilots, Cevan tells me. Boarding sailing ships might have been the most physically demanding.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>The pilot would get on a little dinghy, and they’d row to the side of the ship, and then you’d climb up the ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>He shakes his head at the idea of rowing a dingy through dense fog and huge wake.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>You know when I look at the type of weather and conditions we deal with…These people were just tougher than we are nowadays. \u003cem>(Laughs, fade under)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>To become a bar pilot, you have to be a mid-career captain with many years of experience. There’s a written test and a simulator test. Candidates are ranked based on their scores and are then eligible for an apprenticeship with the bar pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>You’re going to probably do in the neighborhood of at least 600 jobs under the tutelage of existing pilots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>John Carlier is the President of the Bar Pilots Association. He says there are eight sections in the Bay, each with their own challenges, and the pilots have to learn all of them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>And the area starts with the Gulf of the Farallones, works its way through the main bay, down the Redwood City, and all the way up to Stockton and Sacramento.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Piloting up the rivers here can be especially challenging. The ships are within two feet of the bottom in narrow channels with little room for error. And it takes a long time, about 9 hours from the open ocean to Stockton or Sacramento, so they usually change bar pilots half way to avoid fatigue.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Despite all this training, there have been incidents when ships captained by bar pilots have run into trouble in the Bay. Like in 2007 when an oil tanker clipped one of the Bay Bridge towers.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>Yes, that was a bar pilot.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>News clip: \u003c/strong>A 900 foot container ship hit the Bay Bridge tower east of the main anchorage. 58,000 gallons of fuel oil. Countless fragile ecosystems.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>John Carlier: \u003c/strong>There was some communication problems between the pilot and the crew as to where the center of the bridge was on their electronic nav equipment which definitely added to you know the the sideswiping of the Delta Tower of the Bay Bridge.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Because of that incident, the bar pilots now bring their own GPS navigational equipment on board with them so they don’t have to rely on the vessel’s equipment.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m going to get to see that in action soon, so we start heading towards a boat with the word “pilot” boldly written on its side tied up out back. We clamor aboard. It looks like a fancy speedboat, and head towards Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot: \u003c/strong>Where do you want to head to?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Port of Oakland, George III\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It takes about 20 minutes to cross the bay and soon our small boat is pulling up alongside a massive containership. This boat is considered “small” by shipping standards and it’s still as tall as a 15 story building from the water up to the top. I now have to step from the bobbing deck of the pilot boat onto a rope ladder dangling from the first deck.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of ladder clanking against the ship\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>I had hoped to do the open ocean leap I’d heard so much about. Climbing about 15 feet up this ladder felt pretty tame by comparison. The water in the Oakland estuary was very calm, kinda the training wheels version of this climb. No heroics for me.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship, George the III, brings supplies to the Hawaiian Islands.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>Everything from medicine to groceries to fertilizer.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Ed Washburn is senior vice president of fleet operations with Pasha, Hawaii, the company that owns this vessel.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This ship runs the same two-week route on repeat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The state of Hawaii has about three to five days of food availability, of shipping stopped. So it’s very sensitive.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It leaves Honolulu mostly empty, carrying a few commodities like rum and macadamia nuts to the mainland. Then it stops in Oakland to pick up cargo, down to Long Beach for more and back to Honolulu.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Ed Washburn: \u003c/strong>The value of that is about $50 million in cargo each time.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ok, should we go up to the bridge?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>The bridge is at the top of the ship and it’s where the bar pilot does their work. We walk up A LOT of steps to get there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>(sounds of steps under this)\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>From up here we have incredible views of the sun setting over the bay and the internal workings of the port.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>This is Christian Barron. He’s also a Cal Maritime graduate.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Today, Christian Barron is the bar pilot in charge. But Cevan is hanging out with me, explaining what’s happening so I don’t bug Christian at crucial moments, like when he’s checking in with the captain.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Cevan Lesieur: \u003c/strong>Once the tugs have been made fast and the engine’s been tested we can get rolling.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>The engine has been tested.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>These massive ships are hard to maneuver, so pilots use tugboats to pull the ship off the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Radio sounds: \u003c/strong>Captain, this is the chief engineer. Show of power. Cables secured.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Roger, Dave.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Christian checks in with Vessel Traffic Services, basically air traffic control for boats, to let them know his plan and find out if there are other vessels in the shipping lanes he needs to be aware of.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\">Traffic, good evening, 4-5. Preparing to depart Oakland 55 starboard side two bound for sea. Deep draft 32 feet two inches. Tend to Delta-Echo span and deep water traffic lane Working my tugs on 20 Alpha.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>VTS Operator:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400\"> Roger, copy that, 4-5. George the third preparing to get underway from Oakland…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Nothing to worry about. There’s a fair amount of waiting as the crew gets in position and the port workers untie the boat.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>All clear forward\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>And then we get going.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron:\u003c/strong> All clear fore and aft, stand clear of your tuglines.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Artemis and Apollo are the names of the tugboats.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Ok, ready to go. Artemis stop and stretch. Apollo stop and stretch.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As Christian gives orders, the massive container ship starts to slowly move away from the dock.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>It’s kinda anticlimactic when you have 90 ton boats and no wind.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Once the tugboats are secured and ready to go, the whole procedure only takes about ten minutes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>It is a little anticlimactic.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>We love boring when it comes to this.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene):\u003c/strong> I didn’t even realize we were moving at first.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Port sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>You pushed off, what’s the next thing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>I’ll give a command for dead slow ahead. We’ll confirm the engines come up to rpm and then we’ll put the tugs in position so they can follow along so they’re not impeding us, but can still affect the boat if we have an engine or steering failure they can still maneuver the vessel if need be.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Then he’ll check in with traffic again to let them know he’s underway and get any updates.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>And then we’ll start casting off tugs once we get about half a mile from here and start bringing her up to speed.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz (in scene): \u003c/strong>Anything you’re particularly concerned about tonight?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Christian Barron: \u003c/strong>Tonight, no. We have a little bit of current at the bar, so I just need to make sure I time my turns correctly, use enough rudder, engine.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Unfortunately, the bar pilots were not keen on me following Christian all the way out into the open ocean to disembark at 9 knots onto the pilot boat. Instead, we’ll be going back down the ladder in the Oakland estuary.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>Thanks, nice to meet you all. Safe voyage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Captain Eric Veloni: \u003c/strong>Be safe on the ladder!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>We tramp down many flights of stairs, back to the lowest deck and our ladder.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>It should be easier going down, right.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of clanking\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Pilot boat crew: \u003c/strong>You’re two from the bottom…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Katrina Schwartz: \u003c/strong>As we head back towards the Ferry Building, the sun’s last glow seeping from the sky, I’m struck by the vastness of the Bay as the darkness encroaches.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m heading home to my warm bed. But a crew of bar pilots is waiting 11 miles offshore rain or shine. At their best, their work is invisible to us. We only notice the stocked shelves, cruise ships at their berths and fuel at the gas station. Our entire city works because they do. Guiding ship after ship through the fog and to safety.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sound of the pilot boat motoring back to the Embarcadero\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>That was Bay Curious editor and producer, Katrina Schwartz.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Thanks to the KQED Members whose support made this episode possible! If you’d like to become a member, visit donate.kqed.org/podcasts to get started. It only takes a minute and comes with some nice perks. We’ll drop the link in our show notes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. With extra support from Maha Sanad, Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a great week!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"slug": "the-yemeni-coffee-boom-how-a-niche-trend-became-a-bay-area-cultural-phenomenon",
"title": "The Yemeni Coffee Boom: How a Niche Trend Became a Bay Area Cultural Phenomenon",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing you notice when you walk into Mohka House in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> is the smell — cardamom, cinnamon, and fresh coffee. Glistening in a display case near the register, sit decadent slices of honeycomb bread and sabaya, traditional Yemeni sweets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The place is often bustling with all types of people: students working on laptops, families drifting in and out, and friends catching up. Along one wall, customers lounge on floor cushions in \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis#/media/File:House_Interior,_Sanaa_(10720986825).jpg\">a traditional Yemeni maglis-style seating area\u003c/a>. It’s not a rare occurrence for every seat in the cafe to be occupied.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a few years ago, a scene like this would have been hard to find in the Bay Area. The first Yemeni coffee shop — \u003ca href=\"https://delahcoffee.com/\">Delah Coffee\u003c/a> — opened in San Francisco in 2022. \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mohkahouse/?hl=en\">Mohka House\u003c/a>, in Oakland, was the second in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, more than 20 Yemeni coffee shops can be found across the region, from Oakland to San Jose, San Francisco to Fremont, and beyond. Their rise has transformed the local coffee landscape and created new gathering spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They may be new, but the story behind them stretches back decades in time and thousands of miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The story starts with Yemeni migration\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The growth of Yemeni coffee shops is closely tied to the growth of the Yemeni-American community itself in the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Yemen’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.britannica.com/event/Yemeni-Civil-War\">ongoing civil war\u003c/a> has driven recent migration, Yemeni immigration to the United States stretches back to the 1970s. Many of the first Yemeni immigrants settled in places like Dearborn, Michigan, where factory jobs were abundant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084985\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084985\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A piece of Khaliat al Nahl, or honeycomb bread, made of soft, cheese-filled rolls, sits at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My father first migrated to Michigan back in the ’70s,” said Hamza Ghalib, co-owner of Mohka House. “He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California attracted many Yemenis for a different reason than Michigan. Beginning in the 1960s and ’70s, thousands of Yemeni immigrants arrived to work in the state’s agricultural industry, particularly in the Central Valley’s vineyards and fields.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of those early Yemeni farmworkers \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandlibrary.org/blogs/post/from-the-middle-east-to-the-bay-area-a-history-of-arab-immigration-to-san-francisco-and-oakland/\">worked alongside Cesar Chavez and those active in the United Farm Workers movement \u003c/a>in California’s Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084987\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084987\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Over time, family and community networks helped establish Yemeni communities in places like Oakland and the Bay Area. Ghalib eventually joined his father in the United States as a teenager and moved to the Bay Area for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just kind of feels like home,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, the Bay Area is home to one of the largest populations of Yemeni communities in the country, third only to Michigan and New York.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Yemen’s rich coffee history\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The popularity of Yemeni coffee shops isn’t just about migration; it’s also about history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a longstanding debate over the origin of coffee. While coffee plants are native to Ethiopia, Yemen was the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-world-came-to-run-on-coffee/#:~:text=The%20Oromo%20people%20from%20this,believers%20in%20its%20medicinal%20properties.\">first place\u003c/a> where coffee was cultivated, traded and consumed as a beverage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084986\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084986\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yaser Ghalib strains a stovetop coffee drink at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For centuries, the Port of Mokha served as one of the world’s most important coffee-trading centers. The word “mocha” traces its roots to the Yemeni port, which became synonymous with high-quality coffee exported throughout the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside Mohka House, photographs of the Port of Mokha hang on the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What distinguishes Yemeni coffee is the aromatic aftertaste,” Ghalib said. “The chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084984\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084984\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hamza Ghalib (left), owner of Mohka House, and his brother Yaser Ghalib work at the Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some customers said they found Yemeni cafes while looking for local alternatives to corporate chains. And Ghalib believes the cafes’ staying power comes from something bigger than just the drinks and unique atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People want a change,” Ghalib said. “Everybody knows what a Starbucks is, but they don’t know what a good quality cup of coffee can be, waiting for them right around the corner.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ghalib said many customers arrived out of curiosity or while looking for an alternative, and stayed because the cafes offered something different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People started exploring,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>More than coffee shops\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Part of what makes Yemeni cafes distinctive is that they’re designed for lingering. In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes serve as social spaces as much as businesses. They’re where people gather after dinner to drink coffee and tea, and spend hours catching up with friends. Many Bay Area Yemeni cafes have carried the spirit of that tradition with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At \u003ca href=\"https://www.qamariacoffee.com/\">Qamaria\u003c/a> in Fremont on a recent Friday night, groups of friends filled nearly every table. Customers describe the cafes as welcoming, diverse and one of the few places open late, other than bars and clubs, where people can simply spend time together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of the only places to do that,” Shivanka Sharma said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084989\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084989\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffeehouse, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Others described it as a place where they could feel at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go, and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in a weird way,” Mahum Fatima said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As these cafes have become the go-to gathering places, they’ve naturally taken on another role too. In some Bay Area Arab, Desi, and Muslim circles, there’s a running joke that Yemeni coffee shops have become the unofficial matchmaking hotspots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it turns out, there’s some truth to the running joke. While reporting this story at Qamaria in Fremont, I met a customer who told me he met his wife at a Yemeni coffee shop. Stories like this one speak to how deeply these cafes have become woven into community life in the Bay Area. They’re not just places to grab coffee, but places where real friendships, relationships and connections are formed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A culture that’s very much alive\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Ghalib, the success of Yemeni cafes represents something larger than coffee. For years, Yemen has often appeared in American news coverage, mainly in the context of war and humanitarian crisis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cafes tell a different story. They’re places where culture is shared, traditions are preserved and new communities are built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People showcasing their talents in so many different ways,” Ghalib said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And judging by the crowds filling Yemeni cafes across the Bay Area, the movement is only getting started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Move over third-wave coffee shops. … the Bay Area has a new coffee trend – Yemeni coffee shops. They’re popping up all over from Marin…to San Francisco, Oakland, Fremont and Redwood City. Today I’m visiting one of them with KQED’s podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, to see what I’ve been missing …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> All right. Show us the way in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yes. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, man, right away the scent in here is so, like, cinnamon. I know, right? We definitely want the Mocha House latte. Definitely. With cinnamon, ginger, and cardamom. Oh, man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Cardamom and nutmeg is, that’s like a reoccurring theme in a lot of Yemeni drinks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Maybe just see if the waiter recommends one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Okay, cool. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey. Hey. Mubarak. Mubarak. This is Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. Yes. Are you one of the owners? Yes. So nice to meet you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> What do you recommend? We think we’re gonna do the Mocha House latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is there another favorite that you’re like, “Definitely get this”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Chai is really good. In Arabic it’s…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of coffee making\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> 10 out of 10 latte art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Oh, I’m trying, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Should we sit at a table, or do you wanna try to get a spot on the couch?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we could sit over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so first off, where have you brought me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Well, right now we’re in Mocha House. It is a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> I brought you here because Mocha House is one of the very many Yemeni coffee shops that I’m sure you’ve been seeing popping up across the Bay. It’s one of my favorite spots. I, I love coming here and doing work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What’s special about Yemeni cafes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Just being around my people, my culture, hearing the Arabic music playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> It really does transport me. It makes me feel like I have a little piece of home in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this place has a sort of unique soundtrack today. What are we hearing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Right now, they are playing the Quran, which is the holy book in Islam. Usually, they do have some pretty good Arabic music playing, but since we are here during Ramadan, which is the month that Muslims [00:02:00] fast, it’s more traditional to abstain from music if you can, and then usually people are listening to the Quran for the month, or trying to at least.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>If you wanna see a very bustling space with a bunch of, you know, young Muslim people, hit up the Yemeni coffee spots after nightly prayers during Ramadan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s a hot tip, ’cause I feel like the Bay Area is often maligned because we don’t have as much of, like, a late-night bar culture as other big cities. Yeah. So I love that as a hot tip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this the only Yemeni coffee house in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely not. In San Francisco, Oakland, even San Jose, they are literally [00:03:00] popping up everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, well, today on Bay Curious, we are looking into why here with all these Yemeni cafes, and why now. But while you go tell us that story, I’m gonna take a sip of this delicious latte and just sit and let you teach me some stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music beings\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand why so many Yemeni coffee shops have come on the scene, we have to go back to Yemen. The war there has been in the news recently, but Yemeni migration to the U.S actually started long before. Going back to the 1970s, there was a lot of political instability and not a lot of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So, many men left their families in Yemen to find work abroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Cities like Dearborn, Michigan offered steady factory jobs, especially in the auto industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Those first Yemeni migrants formed \u003cem>networks. \u003c/em>Relatives helped relatives. Friends followed friends. And Michigan soon became home to the largest concentration of Yemeni Americans in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> My father first migrated to Michigan back in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>This is Hamza Ghalib, one of the brothers who owns Mohka House. His father was part of that first wave of migration, leaving Hamza and the rest of the family in Yemen while he searched for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California. As for me and my brothers, most of us were born in Yemen. I came here when I was 17 and a half.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Hamza joined his father in the States, but went north to the Bay Area for college, where he found a vibrant Yemeni community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… it just kind of feels like it’s home …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area now has the 3rd largest Yemeni community in the U.S., and it’s been steadily growing, especially since the most recent civil war started in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> The increasing presence of the Yemeni community here is helping and attracting more Yemeni immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The civil war in Yemen, which is still ongoing, pushed many families to leave in search of safety. But leaving didn’t mean letting go of home. Hamza says coffee transports him back to the cafes of his childhood and the flocks of pigeons that would hover nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… every sip kind of takes me back to Yemen … drinking it in the middle of the day or early in the morning … watching my pigeons humming around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>There’s a long-running debate about the true origins of coffee: Yemen or Ethiopia. Coffee plants \u003cem>are\u003c/em> native to the western highlands of Ethiopia, but \u003cem>Yemen\u003c/em> was the first to cultivate, trade, and brew coffee as a drink hundreds of years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For centuries, the Port of Mokha in Yemen was the center of the global coffee trade. And yes, THAT Mokha, as in where the word for the chocolatey coffee drink comes from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So when Hamza serves a cup of coffee here, it’s not just caffeine, it’s a piece of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“What distinguishes the Yemeni coffees, especially the coffee that we sell, is the aromatic aftertaste flavor and the chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Before opening a cafe, Hamza’s original plan was to import coffee directly from Yemen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“One of my friends is from Haraz, that’s the origin place of coffee, debatably in the entire world. I was talking to him about importing coffee from Yemen, but with the ports shut down. And we kind of just settled.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So instead of trying to pull coffee out of a country at war, Hamza decided to bring the Yemeni coffee experience \u003cem>here\u003c/em>. Delah Coffee in San Francisco was the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2022/12/29/sfs-first-yemeni-style-coffee-house-expands-to-the-east-bay/\">first\u003c/a> Yemeni coffee shop to open in the Bay Area in 2022. Mohka House was the second, just a year later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>“Mohka House is family …”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Taj James is a regular at Mohka House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>We’ve got these two brothers who are here every day. And when you come in here, they make everyone here feel like family …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You’ll see things behind the counter that you don’t really find at your typical corner cafe. Honeycomb bread and other traditional sweets. Spices like cardamom and cloves. Drinks built around those unique flavors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>And there’s events that happen, and book nights, and music, and so it’s just a real vibrant community space…I think Mohka House reflects the best of what Oakland is.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade in scene sound\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Okay let’s try the Mohka …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene: \u003c/strong>The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Olivia drinking sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Oh yum. That is really like cardamom, hello, we are present. Very just like, comforting. A little spicy. It’s like a warm hug, just like rich and creamy. I’m definitely going to order this again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Scene fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how these cafes evolved into hotspots for young muslim people in the Bay Area. And hey, while you have a moment, why not give to KQED. Just visithttp://\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> . It takes just a few minutes. And we really need you to help us with our $8 million budget gap now that federal funding has been cut. Again, that’s \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music and sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before 2022, the Bay Area didn’t have a single Yemeni cafe. Today, they’re hard to miss. And these cafes are offering more than just coffee. They’re ushering in a whole new way of gathering … Maha Sanad tells us more.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes are places to linger, socialize, and unwind. They often stay open late into the night. That’s true here in the Bay Area, too. And not just in Oakland. There are Yemeni cafes opening across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene:\u003c/strong> I’m at Qamaria in Fremont right now. It’s about 9:30 PM on a Friday night. A lot of groups of friends hanging out, a lot of young people. It’s a really good vibe in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The lighting is warm and inviting. Friends pull chairs together up to crowded tables. And the sound of chatter and laughter is ringing in the air. It’s a little like a bar, but there’s no alcohol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand the appeal, I asked customers why they keep coming back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 1:\u003c/strong> This is, like, the only thing that’s open kind of late. Everything else closes pretty early, so, like, after work we’ll just chill here. It’s, like, very diverse when you come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 2:\u003c/strong> I’m Pakistani, and so we see a lot of Pakistani and Indian people. And it’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in, like, a weird [00:06:00] way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 3:\u003c/strong> I’d say it’s a more homey feel, I would say. I feel more at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 4: \u003c/strong>It offers cultured chai and coffee spot that allows people to gather together, and that’s something that’s kind of lacking in the United States, especially late at night. This is one of the only places to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> That was Amara Ahmed, Mahum Fatima, Shivanka Sharma, and Rumzi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Some customers also told me it’s political. They said consumer boycotts related to Gaza led them to be more \u003cem>intentional\u003c/em> about where they spend their money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>That’s what started it. That’s what ignited it, and then the vibes here is what kept people around, I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And because these cafes are late-night hangouts, they’ve taken on another role too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nasser: “It’s a great place to meet other folks that are your age as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> In the Bay’s Arab, Desi, and Muslim communities, there’s kind of a running joke that if you’re single, this is where you go. Not just for coffee, but to see and be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser:\u003c/strong> “Yeah, I think that’s what kind of makes it attractive for young people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And it didn’t take long before I found someone with firsthand experience. Rumzi introduced me to his friend Nasser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>This guy literally met his wife at Qamaria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yeah I did meet my wife\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You met your wife at a Yemeni coffee shop? No way!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yup!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Back at Mohka House, Hamza says cafes are just the beginning of what Yemeni people have to offer the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>A complete takeover in a good way. People showcasing their talents in so many different ways. I just hope that we can all co-exist with one another, live in peace…That’s how we coexist and that’s what Oakland, specifically, and the Bay Area generally, is well known for, coexistence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For Hamza and for many others, these cafes are more than just business. They are proof that Yemen is not just a place in crisis, but a \u003cem>culture\u003c/em> that is very much alive in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>CREDITS:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED podcast engagement producer Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003cem>\u003ca href=\"#Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">View the full episode transcript.\u003c/a>\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The first thing you notice when you walk into Mohka House in \u003ca href=\"https://www.kqed.org/news/tag/oakland\">Oakland\u003c/a> is the smell — cardamom, cinnamon, and fresh coffee. Glistening in a display case near the register, sit decadent slices of honeycomb bread and sabaya, traditional Yemeni sweets.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The place is often bustling with all types of people: students working on laptops, families drifting in and out, and friends catching up. Along one wall, customers lounge on floor cushions in \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majlis#/media/File:House_Interior,_Sanaa_(10720986825).jpg\">a traditional Yemeni maglis-style seating area\u003c/a>. It’s not a rare occurrence for every seat in the cafe to be occupied.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Just a few years ago, a scene like this would have been hard to find in the Bay Area. The first Yemeni coffee shop — \u003ca href=\"https://delahcoffee.com/\">Delah Coffee\u003c/a> — opened in San Francisco in 2022. \u003ca href=\"https://www.instagram.com/mohkahouse/?hl=en\">Mohka House\u003c/a>, in Oakland, was the second in 2023.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, more than 20 Yemeni coffee shops can be found across the region, from Oakland to San Jose, San Francisco to Fremont, and beyond. Their rise has transformed the local coffee landscape and created new gathering spaces.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>They may be new, but the story behind them stretches back decades in time and thousands of miles away.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>The story starts with Yemeni migration\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The growth of Yemeni coffee shops is closely tied to the growth of the Yemeni-American community itself in the San Francisco Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While Yemen’s \u003ca href=\"https://www.britannica.com/event/Yemeni-Civil-War\">ongoing civil war\u003c/a> has driven recent migration, Yemeni immigration to the United States stretches back to the 1970s. Many of the first Yemeni immigrants settled in places like Dearborn, Michigan, where factory jobs were abundant.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084985\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084985\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-04-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">A piece of Khaliat al Nahl, or honeycomb bread, made of soft, cheese-filled rolls, sits at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>“My father first migrated to Michigan back in the ’70s,” said Hamza Ghalib, co-owner of Mohka House. “He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>California attracted many Yemenis for a different reason than Michigan. Beginning in the 1960s and ’70s, thousands of Yemeni immigrants arrived to work in the state’s agricultural industry, particularly in the Central Valley’s vineyards and fields.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Many of those early Yemeni farmworkers \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandlibrary.org/blogs/post/from-the-middle-east-to-the-bay-area-a-history-of-arab-immigration-to-san-francisco-and-oakland/\">worked alongside Cesar Chavez and those active in the United Farm Workers movement \u003c/a>in California’s Central Valley.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084987\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084987\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-10-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Over time, family and community networks helped establish Yemeni communities in places like Oakland and the Bay Area. Ghalib eventually joined his father in the United States as a teenager and moved to the Bay Area for college.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It just kind of feels like home,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Today, the Bay Area is home to one of the largest populations of Yemeni communities in the country, third only to Michigan and New York.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Yemen’s rich coffee history\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>The popularity of Yemeni coffee shops isn’t just about migration; it’s also about history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>There’s a longstanding debate over the origin of coffee. While coffee plants are native to Ethiopia, Yemen was the \u003ca href=\"https://www.bbc.com/future/bespoke/made-on-earth/how-the-world-came-to-run-on-coffee/#:~:text=The%20Oromo%20people%20from%20this,believers%20in%20its%20medicinal%20properties.\">first place\u003c/a> where coffee was cultivated, traded and consumed as a beverage.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084986\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084986\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-07-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Yaser Ghalib strains a stovetop coffee drink at Mohka House, a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland, on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>For centuries, the Port of Mokha served as one of the world’s most important coffee-trading centers. The word “mocha” traces its roots to the Yemeni port, which became synonymous with high-quality coffee exported throughout the world.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Inside Mohka House, photographs of the Port of Mokha hang on the walls.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“What distinguishes Yemeni coffee is the aromatic aftertaste,” Ghalib said. “The chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084984\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084984\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-01-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Hamza Ghalib (left), owner of Mohka House, and his brother Yaser Ghalib work at the Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Some customers said they found Yemeni cafes while looking for local alternatives to corporate chains. And Ghalib believes the cafes’ staying power comes from something bigger than just the drinks and unique atmosphere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People want a change,” Ghalib said. “Everybody knows what a Starbucks is, but they don’t know what a good quality cup of coffee can be, waiting for them right around the corner.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Ghalib said many customers arrived out of curiosity or while looking for an alternative, and stayed because the cafes offered something different.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People started exploring,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>More than coffee shops\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Part of what makes Yemeni cafes distinctive is that they’re designed for lingering. In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes serve as social spaces as much as businesses. They’re where people gather after dinner to drink coffee and tea, and spend hours catching up with friends. Many Bay Area Yemeni cafes have carried the spirit of that tradition with them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>At \u003ca href=\"https://www.qamariacoffee.com/\">Qamaria\u003c/a> in Fremont on a recent Friday night, groups of friends filled nearly every table. Customers describe the cafes as welcoming, diverse and one of the few places open late, other than bars and clubs, where people can simply spend time together.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s one of the only places to do that,” Shivanka Sharma said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_12084989\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 2000px\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-12084989\" src=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"2000\" height=\"1333\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED.jpg 2000w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-160x107.jpg 160w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/05/260521-YEMENICOFFEE-18-BL-KQED-1536x1024.jpg 1536w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 2000px) 100vw, 2000px\">\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mohka House, a Yemeni coffeehouse, in Oakland on May 21, 2026. \u003ccite>(Beth LaBerge/KQED)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>Others described it as a place where they could feel at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“It’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go, and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in a weird way,” Mahum Fatima said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>As these cafes have become the go-to gathering places, they’ve naturally taken on another role too. In some Bay Area Arab, Desi, and Muslim circles, there’s a running joke that Yemeni coffee shops have become the unofficial matchmaking hotspots.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And it turns out, there’s some truth to the running joke. While reporting this story at Qamaria in Fremont, I met a customer who told me he met his wife at a Yemeni coffee shop. Stories like this one speak to how deeply these cafes have become woven into community life in the Bay Area. They’re not just places to grab coffee, but places where real friendships, relationships and connections are formed.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>A culture that’s very much alive\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>For Ghalib, the success of Yemeni cafes represents something larger than coffee. For years, Yemen has often appeared in American news coverage, mainly in the context of war and humanitarian crisis.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>These cafes tell a different story. They’re places where culture is shared, traditions are preserved and new communities are built.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“People showcasing their talents in so many different ways,” Ghalib said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>And judging by the crowds filling Yemeni cafes across the Bay Area, the movement is only getting started.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>\u003ca id=\"Viewthefullepisodetranscript\">\u003c/a>Episode transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Move over third-wave coffee shops. … the Bay Area has a new coffee trend – Yemeni coffee shops. They’re popping up all over from Marin…to San Francisco, Oakland, Fremont and Redwood City. Today I’m visiting one of them with KQED’s podcast engagement producer, Maha Sanad, to see what I’ve been missing …\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene:\u003c/strong> All right. Show us the way in.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yes. Let’s go.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Oh, man, right away the scent in here is so, like, cinnamon. I know, right? We definitely want the Mocha House latte. Definitely. With cinnamon, ginger, and cardamom. Oh, man.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Cardamom and nutmeg is, that’s like a reoccurring theme in a lot of Yemeni drinks.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Maybe just see if the waiter recommends one.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Okay, cool. Yeah.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hey. Hey. Mubarak. Mubarak. This is Olivia.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Hi. How are you? Nice to meet you. Yes. Are you one of the owners? Yes. So nice to meet you.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> What do you recommend? We think we’re gonna do the Mocha House latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is there another favorite that you’re like, “Definitely get this”?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Chai is really good. In Arabic it’s…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Sounds of coffee making\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> 10 out of 10 latte art.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Yasser:\u003c/strong> Oh, I’m trying, you know?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Should we sit at a table, or do you wanna try to get a spot on the couch?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Yeah, we could sit over there.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Okay, so first off, where have you brought me?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Well, right now we’re in Mocha House. It is a Yemeni coffee shop in Oakland.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> I brought you here because Mocha House is one of the very many Yemeni coffee shops that I’m sure you’ve been seeing popping up across the Bay. It’s one of my favorite spots. I, I love coming here and doing work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> What’s special about Yemeni cafes?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Just being around my people, my culture, hearing the Arabic music playing.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> It really does transport me. It makes me feel like I have a little piece of home in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> And this place has a sort of unique soundtrack today. What are we hearing?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Right now, they are playing the Quran, which is the holy book in Islam. Usually, they do have some pretty good Arabic music playing, but since we are here during Ramadan, which is the month that Muslims [00:02:00] fast, it’s more traditional to abstain from music if you can, and then usually people are listening to the Quran for the month, or trying to at least.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>If you wanna see a very bustling space with a bunch of, you know, young Muslim people, hit up the Yemeni coffee spots after nightly prayers during Ramadan.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> That’s a hot tip, ’cause I feel like the Bay Area is often maligned because we don’t have as much of, like, a late-night bar culture as other big cities. Yeah. So I love that as a hot tip.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> Is this the only Yemeni coffee house in the Bay Area?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> Oh, definitely not. In San Francisco, Oakland, even San Jose, they are literally [00:03:00] popping up everywhere.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/strong> All right, well, today on Bay Curious, we are looking into why here with all these Yemeni cafes, and why now. But while you go tell us that story, I’m gonna take a sip of this delicious latte and just sit and let you teach me some stuff.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music beings\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand why so many Yemeni coffee shops have come on the scene, we have to go back to Yemen. The war there has been in the news recently, but Yemeni migration to the U.S actually started long before. Going back to the 1970s, there was a lot of political instability and not a lot of work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So, many men left their families in Yemen to find work abroad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Cities like Dearborn, Michigan offered steady factory jobs, especially in the auto industry.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Those first Yemeni migrants formed \u003cem>networks. \u003c/em>Relatives helped relatives. Friends followed friends. And Michigan soon became home to the largest concentration of Yemeni Americans in the United States.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> My father first migrated to Michigan back in the 70s.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>This is Hamza Ghalib, one of the brothers who owns Mohka House. His father was part of that first wave of migration, leaving Hamza and the rest of the family in Yemen while he searched for work.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>He worked at Ford, but he did not like it there, so he moved to Southern California. As for me and my brothers, most of us were born in Yemen. I came here when I was 17 and a half.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Hamza joined his father in the States, but went north to the Bay Area for college, where he found a vibrant Yemeni community.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… it just kind of feels like it’s home …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The Bay Area now has the 3rd largest Yemeni community in the U.S., and it’s been steadily growing, especially since the most recent civil war started in 2015.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib:\u003c/strong> The increasing presence of the Yemeni community here is helping and attracting more Yemeni immigrants.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The civil war in Yemen, which is still ongoing, pushed many families to leave in search of safety. But leaving didn’t mean letting go of home. Hamza says coffee transports him back to the cafes of his childhood and the flocks of pigeons that would hover nearby.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>… every sip kind of takes me back to Yemen … drinking it in the middle of the day or early in the morning … watching my pigeons humming around.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>There’s a long-running debate about the true origins of coffee: Yemen or Ethiopia. Coffee plants \u003cem>are\u003c/em> native to the western highlands of Ethiopia, but \u003cem>Yemen\u003c/em> was the first to cultivate, trade, and brew coffee as a drink hundreds of years ago.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For centuries, the Port of Mokha in Yemen was the center of the global coffee trade. And yes, THAT Mokha, as in where the word for the chocolatey coffee drink comes from.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So when Hamza serves a cup of coffee here, it’s not just caffeine, it’s a piece of that history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“What distinguishes the Yemeni coffees, especially the coffee that we sell, is the aromatic aftertaste flavor and the chocolatey flavor, earthy, and it’s all natural.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Before opening a cafe, Hamza’s original plan was to import coffee directly from Yemen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>“One of my friends is from Haraz, that’s the origin place of coffee, debatably in the entire world. I was talking to him about importing coffee from Yemen, but with the ports shut down. And we kind of just settled.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>So instead of trying to pull coffee out of a country at war, Hamza decided to bring the Yemeni coffee experience \u003cem>here\u003c/em>. Delah Coffee in San Francisco was the \u003ca href=\"https://sfstandard.com/2022/12/29/sfs-first-yemeni-style-coffee-house-expands-to-the-east-bay/\">first\u003c/a> Yemeni coffee shop to open in the Bay Area in 2022. Mohka House was the second, just a year later.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>“Mohka House is family …”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Taj James is a regular at Mohka House.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>We’ve got these two brothers who are here every day. And when you come in here, they make everyone here feel like family …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You’ll see things behind the counter that you don’t really find at your typical corner cafe. Honeycomb bread and other traditional sweets. Spices like cardamom and cloves. Drinks built around those unique flavors.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Taj James: \u003c/strong>And there’s events that happen, and book nights, and music, and so it’s just a real vibrant community space…I think Mohka House reflects the best of what Oakland is.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Fade in scene sound\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Okay let’s try the Mohka …\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene: \u003c/strong>The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: The Mohka House Latte.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Olivia drinking sounds\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price in scene\u003c/strong>: Oh yum. That is really like cardamom, hello, we are present. Very just like, comforting. A little spicy. It’s like a warm hug, just like rich and creamy. I’m definitely going to order this again.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Scene fades out\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>We need to take a quick break, but when we come back we’ll learn how these cafes evolved into hotspots for young muslim people in the Bay Area. And hey, while you have a moment, why not give to KQED. Just visithttp://\u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> . It takes just a few minutes. And we really need you to help us with our $8 million budget gap now that federal funding has been cut. Again, that’s \u003ca href=\"http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\">http://donate.kqed.org/podcasts\u003c/a> .\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>Music and sponsor message\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/strong>Before 2022, the Bay Area didn’t have a single Yemeni cafe. Today, they’re hard to miss. And these cafes are offering more than just coffee. They’re ushering in a whole new way of gathering … Maha Sanad tells us more.\u003cstrong>\u003cbr>\n\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>In Yemen and across much of the Arab world, cafes are places to linger, socialize, and unwind. They often stay open late into the night. That’s true here in the Bay Area, too. And not just in Oakland. There are Yemeni cafes opening across the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad in scene:\u003c/strong> I’m at Qamaria in Fremont right now. It’s about 9:30 PM on a Friday night. A lot of groups of friends hanging out, a lot of young people. It’s a really good vibe in here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>The lighting is warm and inviting. Friends pull chairs together up to crowded tables. And the sound of chatter and laughter is ringing in the air. It’s a little like a bar, but there’s no alcohol.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>To understand the appeal, I asked customers why they keep coming back.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 1:\u003c/strong> This is, like, the only thing that’s open kind of late. Everything else closes pretty early, so, like, after work we’ll just chill here. It’s, like, very diverse when you come here.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 2:\u003c/strong> I’m Pakistani, and so we see a lot of Pakistani and Indian people. And it’s just really nice to see there’s a place where we can go and people aren’t looking at us in our cultural clothes in, like, a weird [00:06:00] way.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 3:\u003c/strong> I’d say it’s a more homey feel, I would say. I feel more at home.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Patron 4: \u003c/strong>It offers cultured chai and coffee spot that allows people to gather together, and that’s something that’s kind of lacking in the United States, especially late at night. This is one of the only places to do that.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> That was Amara Ahmed, Mahum Fatima, Shivanka Sharma, and Rumzi.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Some customers also told me it’s political. They said consumer boycotts related to Gaza led them to be more \u003cem>intentional\u003c/em> about where they spend their money.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>That’s what started it. That’s what ignited it, and then the vibes here is what kept people around, I would say.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And because these cafes are late-night hangouts, they’ve taken on another role too…\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Nasser: “It’s a great place to meet other folks that are your age as well.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad:\u003c/strong> In the Bay’s Arab, Desi, and Muslim communities, there’s kind of a running joke that if you’re single, this is where you go. Not just for coffee, but to see and be seen.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser:\u003c/strong> “Yeah, I think that’s what kind of makes it attractive for young people.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>And it didn’t take long before I found someone with firsthand experience. Rumzi introduced me to his friend Nasser.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Rumzi: \u003c/strong>This guy literally met his wife at Qamaria.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yeah I did meet my wife\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>You met your wife at a Yemeni coffee shop? No way!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Nasser: \u003c/strong>Yup!\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>Back at Mohka House, Hamza says cafes are just the beginning of what Yemeni people have to offer the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Hamza Ghalib: \u003c/strong>A complete takeover in a good way. People showcasing their talents in so many different ways. I just hope that we can all co-exist with one another, live in peace…That’s how we coexist and that’s what Oakland, specifically, and the Bay Area generally, is well known for, coexistence.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Maha Sanad: \u003c/strong>For Hamza and for many others, these cafes are more than just business. They are proof that Yemen is not just a place in crisis, but a \u003cem>culture\u003c/em> that is very much alive in the Bay Area.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>CREDITS:\u003c/strong>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cstrong>Olivia Allen-Price\u003c/strong>: That was KQED podcast engagement producer Maha Sanad.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member supported KQED. Our show is made by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>With extra support from Katie Sprenger, Jen Chien, Maha Sanad, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on team KQED.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Some members of the KQED podcast team are represented by The Screen Actors Guild, American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, San Francisco Northern California Local.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>I’m Olivia Allen-Price, have a great week.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published in 2022 and has been lightly updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any group that feels obligated to include “Are you a sex cult?” on its \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html\">frequently asked questions page\u003c/a> probably has something of a public relations problem, even when the answer is, “No.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Seriously, we are in many ways fairly traditional, suburban families and individuals but we’re also a group exploring pleasurable living, which qualifies us as an alternative lifestyle,” writes the intentional community Lafayette Morehouse on its website. According to a 2020 webcast from Morehouse, “dozens and dozens” of people are still living communally in a group that has been active since the late 1960s. It’s one of a small fraction of surviving communes from that heyday of experimentation in group living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Contra Costa County locals like Sabrina McQueen used to see group members — who live on a secluded parcel of some 20-plus acres, including a swimming pool, tennis court and, at one time, a boxing ring — driving around town in purple limos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad fullwidth]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d drop people off at the grocery store,” McQueen said. “So it’s like, ‘Well, what’s that?’ And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the Purple People.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Purple is a big theme with Morehouse, whose members also live in purple-painted houses. In high school, McQueen and her friends were so curious about the group they’d make a night of spying on the property from the one lookout point where you could see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “Purple People” themselves \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html#purple-people\">do not answer to that name\u003c/a>. “Do I look purple to you?” one Morehouse member \u003ca href=\"https://archives.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/purple-haze/Content?oid=2132347\">told an SF Weekly reporter in 1995\u003c/a>. And their penchant for privacy is well-known in the area; McQueen’s father was a mail carrier, but Morehouse wouldn’t let him get past the gate of their property to make his deliveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McQueen herself had never heard the name Lafayette Morehouse. She has, however, heard the sex cult rumor, and media organizations also have referred to the group that way. So she wants to know the truth about Morehouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m just wondering, are the Purple People still there and what are they about?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Marco Beneteau took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 2000s and has lived in several communes. He said the idea that the group is a cult is “complete nonsense,” and that the group has displayed none of the characteristics associated with cults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives. None of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academics who study intentional communities like Morehouse eschew the very word “cult,” said \u003ca href=\"https://religiousstudies.ku.edu/timothy-miller\">Tim Miller, a professor of religious studies at the University of Kansas\u003c/a> who has written extensively about 1960s-era communes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The way people in common parlance use the word is to say [this is] something I don’t like, and that may have a good basis and it may not,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why has Lafayette Morehouse acquired this reputation? I very much wanted to talk to the group, but despite numerous emails and phone calls, they mostly ignored me. However, some of their history is available in newspaper stories, magazine articles and books, on websites and via former members. What has come through is that Lafayette Morehouse is one of the few surviving links to an increasingly forgotten part of Bay Area history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/TgR5YkWAekM\" title=\"YouTube video player\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>This promotional video produced by Lafayette Morehouse is the only one on their YouTube channel.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Communes, gurus and human potential\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To really understand Lafayette Morehouse, you have to grasp a few things about the 1960s and early 1970s other than Bob Dylan, Vietnam and hippies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the era, the younger generation — believe it or not, the baby boomers now so readily derided as out of touch — formed the bulk of a counterculture looking to overthrow norms and conventions in just about everything: religion, politics, music, art — you name it. Hundreds of thousands — even up to a million — young people took to living together in groups organized around political, religious or environmental ideals, said Miller, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/60s-Communes-Syracuse-Conflict-Resolution/dp/081560601X?asin=081560601X&revisionId=&format=4&depth=2\">authored a survey of the era’s communes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 1965, he said, “there was just an explosion” of new communities. These groups sought to build a better society based on values other than those enshrined in what Miller calls “this sort of me-first” American culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While communitarian ideas were inspiring people to live together in collectivist ways, a parallel, more individualistic philosophy also was gaining ground. The human potential movement was based on the notion that people could tap into their unused abilities to attain “self-actualization.” The Bay Area became a hub for both these ideas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12081386 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/260423-CONCORD-MOUNDS-MD-08-KQED-3.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This also was the age when high-profile evangelists pushed for expanding human consciousness. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2013/10/timothy-leary-archives/\">The former Harvard professor Timothy Leary\u003c/a> urged young people to take psychedelic drugs and “turn on, tune in and drop out.” Meanwhile, self-educated former car salesman Werner Erhard promoted \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training\">a program of intense seminars called EST\u003c/a>, designed to bring about personal transformation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1967, at the intersection of communes, the human potential movement and the rise of these charismatic gurus, appeared the founder of Morehouse: Victor Baranco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Victor Baranco was one of the teachers who had come up with a philosophy that helped people to self-actualize or reach their human potential,” said Laurie Rivlin-Heller, who knew Baranco in the 1970s when she lived in Morehouse residences in Oakland and Rohnert Park. \u003ca href=\"https://communalstudies.org/product/communal-societies-vol-25-2005/\">She later wrote her master’s thesis on the group\u003c/a>, which was initially called the \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandmorehouse.com/\">Institute of Human Abilities\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco was a former appliance salesman now selling a new philosophy, in which the goal, broadly speaking, was to remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was good at reeling people into his orbit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You would participate in a course in which he was the teacher,” Rivlin-Heller said. “And he would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing. Not only did he listen, but he looked and he could assess on the basis of your question and maybe a couple of follow-up questions where you were coming from. It was a unique gift.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco’s group made money by selling courses and renovating dilapidated houses he’d purchased. The Morehouse concept was so successful that at one point it had dozens of affiliates around the country, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/sgt-bilko-meets-the-new-culture-182617/\">Rolling Stone reported\u003c/a> that people in Berkeley were calling the founder “the Colonel Sanders of the commune scene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That 1971 article was less than complimentary, portraying Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo surrounded by obsequious devotees who paid money to hear him deliver homespun homilies. Baranco was also quoted as acknowledging he’d been a “hustler” who’d made “big money in shady ways. Not necessarily illegal, but shady,” including selling phony diamond rings and watches. The article later appeared in a book called “Mindfuckers” alongside a chapter on Charles Manson — not a good look for any leader of a commune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rivlin-Heller said the article missed the point of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He put everything up front,” she said. “The introductory course to Morehouse is called the ‘Mark Group,’ where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were volunteering, entering into the hustle and participating in it. Those that I know, [they] had a good experience there … and if they didn’t feel they were getting value, they would leave.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another former Morehouse adherent, Rebekah Beneteau, said she took a lot of courses at the Lafayette property in the 1990s and also lived with her then-husband, Marco, in a Yonkers, New York, Morehouse. She described her time there as “a really life-changing experience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[aside postID=news_12084476 hero='https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2026/04/HistoryofWetsuit.jpg']\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I call them the silver-lining people,” Beneteau said, “because their philosophy and approach to life was to always view everything as if it was a gift and their own creation. And how could they use it? How could they view it as already perfect, including the potential for change?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the primary components of the Morehouse philosophy, both Beneateaus said, is that a community runs better when its women are happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau said that while the Morehouses clearly had a money-making component, she never felt they took advantage of her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve actually been affiliated with way more organizations that are way more pushy and suck your money out,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So what’s with the sex?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lafayette Morehouse bills its philosophy as “responsible hedonism.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hedonism is an ethical point of view that has the pursuit of pleasure as the highest goal,” the group writes on its website. “People often think that living pleasurably means that you don’t care about anybody else. Our experience has proven that if you are going to have a pleasurable life, then you have to see to it that others around you live pleasurably too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A big part of Morehouse’s hedonistic doctrine appears to involve having better sex. The group currently has nine sensuality-related \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">courses advertised on its website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11913695\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1296px\">\u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11913695\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png\" alt=\"A screenshot of the nine course titles offered by Lafayette Morehouse related to sensuality.\" width=\"1296\" height=\"412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png 1296w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-800x254.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-1020x324.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-160x51.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1296px) 100vw, 1296px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Current sensuality-related courses offered by Lafayette Morehouse. \u003ccite>(Lafayette Morehouse)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The focus on sex is a reflection of the culture at the time of Morehouse’s founding, said Rivlin-Heller. Baranco, who was in his 30s at the time, saw a way for people his age and older to participate in the sexual revolution happening around them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these different gurus had different hooks,” Rivlin-Heller said. “Ram Dass did meditation and chanting and Buddhism. Esalen had humanistic psychology. So the sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One notorious Morehouse event was a \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/first-demo.html\">public demonstration\u003c/a> in 1976 of what the group claimed was a woman having a three-hour orgasm. (No, I couldn’t find any video.) And Baranco took advantage of California’s loose postsecondary education standards to turn the Lafayette commune into “More University,” which offered Ph.D.s in the humanities and sensuality, and conducted what the organization said was sexual research. In 1992, The San Francisco Chronicle reported that courses cost as much as $16,800. A 1994 profile of the university in \u003ca href=\"https://docplayer.net/45093155-Volume-2-no-7-march-1994-2-50.html\">the conservative magazine Heterodoxy\u003c/a> described a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/31/us/california-trying-to-close-worthless-diploma-schools.html\">less than rigorous academic program\u003c/a>, to put it mildly, as well as some alleged troubling sexual incidents, though no arrests or charges were ever made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s and ’90s, Baranco unsuccessfully sued The Chronicle and The Contra Costa Times for libel. One court decision is not-safe-for-work reading: According to the court, More University’s Advanced Sensuality class included research in “engorgement, lubrication, seminal secretion.” It said one of the goals of the course was to “make friends with another crotch.” The university was forced to shut down in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau, at least, believes Morehouse did legitimate sexual research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are many people now who are teaching [the one-hour orgasm] who either attribute it to them or not,” she said. “They have a technique that allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a whole hour?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=314&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Flafayette.morehouse%2Fvideos%2F2506462923003338%2F&show_text=false&width=560&t=0\" width=\"560\" height=\"314\" style=\"border:none;overflow:hidden\" scrolling=\"no\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>A Facebook Live video from Lafayette Morehouse discussing their approach to communal living and COVID-19.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Fear of what’s different\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1970s into the early 1990s, Lafayette Morehouse engaged in an ongoing battle with the county and neighbors over zoning issues and code violations, including allowing unhoused people to live on the property in tents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tim Miller, the historian of intentional communities, said it’s not uncommon for communes to be unpopular among local residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a very typical thing that’s happened throughout history,” he said. “There seems to be an instinctive fear among a lot of people of anything that’s new or different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miller said the remaining ’60s-era communes are “often quite quiet. They don’t want to call attention to themselves, even though … they get along with their neighbors and all of that. [But] the big problem they have over and over are zoning laws [that] often forbid communal living.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surviving the decades\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Baranco died in Hawaii in 2002, and since then Lafayette Morehouse has been mostly free of controversy. The great swell of ’60s-era communes eventually dissipated, leaving only a small fraction of surviving groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A friend of mine, who still lives on one of the ’60s-era communes, said when their community had a great out-migration in the ’80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all,” said Miller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say why Morehouse has outlasted its peers, but Rebekah Beneteau said \u003ca href=\"https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/how-to-free-love-commune-neil-strauss-2018-6/\">Morehouse has figured out how to make group living work\u003c/a>. During the coronavirus pandemic, \u003ca href=\"https://fb.watch/cNfpmcgSuM/\">the group held a webcast\u003c/a> where they described the difficulty of living in a close community with so many people during a pandemic. But true to their “silver lining” philosophy, they were looking for ways the experience could actually enhance their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not a bad goal, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[baycuriousquestion]\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today we’re going to venture back to the 1960s and 70s, when the Bay Area was a center for many social movements.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People took to the streets to protest the Vietnam War …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound pop of protest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Black Panther Party formed in response to police brutality against Black people …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Speech: We are talking about the survival of Black people, nothing else…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Women were frustrated by the gender inequality they faced daily … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chanting: Free our sisters, free ourselves\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And a lot of people started to think differently about how they wanted to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As many as a million Americans decided to join communes, group living situations, often with shared chores and finances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now the vast majority of those intentional communities that formed in the 60s and 70s have disappeared. But not all of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reporter Jon Brooks went looking for one that survived in the suburbs of Contra Costa County, a group that has been steeped in mystery and sometimes controversy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One note for listeners: we do talk about sex in this episode. It first aired in 2022. Here’s Jon… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you were a high school kid growing up in the Walnut Creek area back in the 1990s, there wasn’t a lot to do. That’s one reason why Sabrina McQueen has never forgotten the big purple car she saw driving around town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’d drop people off at the grocery store. So it’s like, well, what’s that? And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the purple people.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Purple people. That is fun to say. Say it once, you’re probably gonna want to say it again. Purple people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who could they possibly be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s what Sabrina wants to know. She remembers in the seventh grade she went with a friend to pick someone up who lived on the purple people’s property…a com pound on some 20-plus acres. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was so excited that I thought I was going to go inside and be able to see it. And then we got just to the gate, and that was it. You can’t get past the gate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What exactly was going on in there? It’s one of those lingering mysteries to people who live in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, here we should tell you, the Purple People aren’t really called the Purple People. (I know, rats.) That is just what locals call them. Why? Because they’re known to drive around in purple vehicles and live in purple-painted houses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know the official name of the group?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> No, I don’t. That’s why I asked this question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their real name is Lafayette Morehouse. And they are one of a very small fraction of 1960s-era communes that survive to this day. Lafayette Morehouse was so mysterious to locals like Sabrina, she and her friends on weekends would drive to this one lookout point to see if they could catch a glimpse of the property. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would be kind of like, Hey, what do you guys want to go do tonight? It’s like, Oh, you guys want to go like, check out the purple people? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s driving me to that spot now. But she’s having a hard time finding it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, here’s where we’re going to turn. But it has been 30 years\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Excuse me, we’re looking for the Purple People campus … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Purple people campus? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sorry, no idea.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You never heard that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you think they don’t know for real?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lafayette Morehouse has a colorful history, which we’re going to get into in a moment, but in recent decades it’s been quiet. Three years ago, the group was briefly in the news after someone left racist graffiti on their buildings. Morehouse’s reaction to the media at the time: No comment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Naturally, I wanted very much to talk to the group, but they declined multiple interview requests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I did find three former Morehouse members who did want to talk. Like Rebekah Beneteau. She took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 1990s. The group was so successful at attracting members, Morehouse branches sprang up around the country. Beneteau says she lived for six years in one of the sister Morehouse communes in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really the core of Morehouse’s philosophy is that life is better lived together and that we disrupted that in the 50s by shuttling every woman, every couple, off into their own houses. And then we invented Valium because there were all these women alone at home going nuts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1960s and 70s a lot of people were looking for new ways to live more fulfilling lives, at least more fulfilling than their parents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One way to escape the prescribed path laid out by society – school, job, marriage, kids, death – was to live together in groups organized around political, religious, or environmental ideals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hundreds of thousands, up to a million, people tried their hand at communal living, says professor Tim Miller, an expert on intentional communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tim Miller:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Starting in 1965, I think you can date it that precisely. there was a whole new wave of communities came along… (4:00) I would say by and large these new young people’s communities were not very popular with mainstream society, and I would say that’s a very typical thing. I think it’s just that fear of what’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1970s ..and all the way through the 90s, Morehouse and Contra Costa County also battled over zoning issues and code violations … skirmishes that were frequently reported in the news. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Psychedelic music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The 1960s and 70s were also the age of … the guru. Like Timothy Leary – who urged people to take psychedelic drugs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Leary: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Turn on, tune in, and drop out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Werner Erhard, creator of something called E-S-T, or EST. This was a program of intense seminars supposedly leading to personal transformation. What Erhard was prescribing was… um, I don’t know…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Werner Erhard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are…that love is attention. People are…that love is attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of these different gurus had different hooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Laurie Rivlin Heller. In the early ‘70s she dropped out of college and moved to the Bay Area. Here, she got interested in the human potential movement – the idea that people could tap into their unused abilities to reach their full potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s when she discovered someone named \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We’ve got to pause for a quick break. When we return … we get to know Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laurie Rivlin Heller met Victor Baranco in the early 70s, and found herself drawn to him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Berkeley-born Baranco was the founder of Morehouse, which had branches in a few Bay Area cities. Baranco had a successful career as an appliance salesman. But with Morehouse, he was offering something more than consumer goods. He was selling a new philosophy. The goal…remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">good\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The fact that he could so clearly understand who I was and where I was coming from. And he did that to everybody. It was a unique gift. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco called his program for living “responsible hedonism.” That means creating a pleasurable life for not only yourself, but for others. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The responsible part\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was that you take responsibility for your life and your action. Things could change, but it was up to you to do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hedonism part? That’s where the “more” in Mor ehouse comes in. And a lot of it has to do with … you guessed it … or you didn’t, because this is public media: sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco. There were young people in this time period who were experiencing sexuality in a way that hadn’t been done previously. And there were older people who wanted a piece of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">According to former members, one of the tenets of Baranco’s teaching was that a community functioned better when the women were happy, sexually and otherwise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group is famous for a 1976 demonstration of a woman reportedly having a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">3-hour\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> orgasm. Yes I said what I said. I spent a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> of time looking for that tape. Didn’t find it. But I did find some current Morehouse YouTube videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the fundamentals of sensuality course, we discuss the nature of orgasm. And in the afternoon, there’s a live demonstration of a woman in orgasm for an hour that will really blow your mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Beneteau…the woman who lived in a Morehouse commune in New York… was at first put off by the emphasis on sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They had a class where a woman was demonstrating being in orgasm for an hour. I thought that was extremely freaky. I didn’t want anything to do with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she did like the group’s positive outlook and focus on people’s ability to change. Now, she offers sex and intimacy coaching. And, she changed her mind about the one-hour orgasm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They have a technique that also allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 30:05 Can you really have a one-hour orgasm?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mm, 27 minutes. Pretty, pretty good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this focus on sex has led to a certain reputation for Morehouse among its neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a couple of rumors, one that it was a sex cult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, the group has definitely at times been labeled a sex cult. So much so they even have a question on their F-A-Q page … “Are you a sex cult?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I mean, that’s complete nonsense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Marco Beneteau. He and Rebekah used to be married. He also took a lot of Morehouse courses. Then the two of them started their own commune in Philadelphia. Now he lives on a commune in Wyoming. So the man knows his communes. He says Morehouse didn’t have any of the characteristics people associate with cults.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion. You know, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives, that, you know, none of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If Morehouse isn’t a cult, it has been controversial. In 1971, Rolling Stone published a pretty unflattering portrait of the group – complete with Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo. The article implied Baranco was making a lot of money off group members. But Laurie Rivlin Heller says there was nothing devious going on. Self-interest was an open part of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would say that he put everything up front. The introductory course to Morehouse is called the Mark Group, where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were voluntarily entering into the hustle and participating in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Still, that Rolling Stone article later appeared in a book alongside a chapter on Charles Manson. Not a good look for any leader of a commune. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Using classical educational modes, More university is dedicated to the full realization of human potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco later turned Lafayette Morehouse into More University. More University, more controversy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university offered PhDs in the humanities and of course, sensuality, including sexual research. In 1992, the San Francisco Chronicle reported at least one course cost almost 17-thousand dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 80s and 90s Baranco sued the Chronicle and the Contra Costa Times for libel. (Hashtag please don’t sue \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">us\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.) The court threw those lawsuits out. One of the decisions is not-safe-for-work reading. According to the court, a goal of More University’s Advanced Sensuality class was to “make friends with another crotch.” Which, if you’re listening Morehouse, would be an awesome bumper sticker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university shut down in the mid-90s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco died in 2002 at the age of 68. And, eventually, the great majority of ‘60s communes faded away. Professor Timothy Miller:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Miller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Friend of mine, who still lives on one of the 60s era communes, said when their community had a great outmigration in the 80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Morehouse has survived. The decades come, the decades go, and they’re still doing their thing – whatever it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Back in the car with Sabrina, we wandered around trying to find that one view of the campus she remembers. We kept taking wrong turns, going back over the same streets. And then… …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a purple house.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s excited. She’s a Purple People fan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wonder if that belongs to… Oh, yeah, I mean, that is, does that look like it’s purple?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> property, with tennis courts and everything. But really, there’s not much to see and the group does have a right to its privacy. Sabrina, I think, is viewing it through the eyes of her high school years, when there was this mysterious aura around this counterculture group … \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in her own suburban home town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wanted to know what she thinks of the Purple People now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is kind of interesting that this has survived so long, which I think is so amazing. I mean, hey, if that’s what they want to do and they’re peaceful and they are able to be part of our community, it sounds like they’re having fun. So good for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m a reporter. It’s my job to be skeptical. But I will say one thing. At the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, Lafayette Morehouse went live over Facebook. They were definitely taking safety seriously. But, their aim wasn’t just to survive COVID, they said that wasn’t a high enough goal. They wanted to use the experience as a way to make their lives even better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If life hands you really sour lemons, make even sweeter lemonade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I got to admit, I’m still thinking about that one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was reporter Jon Brooks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you like Bay Curious, I’ve got a request. Please tell your podcast listening friends about the show. We all like a good recommendation…help us grow!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And as always, consider donating to help sustain the work we do on Bay Curious. More info at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Brendan Willard and Sebastian Miño-Bucheli also helped on this episode. We get extra support from: Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>[ad floatright]\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n",
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"subhead": "Locals call them the \"Purple People\" because they drive around in purple limos and live in purple houses.",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003cp>\u003ca href=\"#episode-transcript\">\u003ci>View the full episode transcript.\u003c/i>\u003c/a>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cem>This article first published in 2022 and has been lightly updated.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Any group that feels obligated to include “Are you a sex cult?” on its \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html\">frequently asked questions page\u003c/a> probably has something of a public relations problem, even when the answer is, “No.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Seriously, we are in many ways fairly traditional, suburban families and individuals but we’re also a group exploring pleasurable living, which qualifies us as an alternative lifestyle,” writes the intentional community Lafayette Morehouse on its website. According to a 2020 webcast from Morehouse, “dozens and dozens” of people are still living communally in a group that has been active since the late 1960s. It’s one of a small fraction of surviving communes from that heyday of experimentation in group living.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Contra Costa County locals like Sabrina McQueen used to see group members — who live on a secluded parcel of some 20-plus acres, including a swimming pool, tennis court and, at one time, a boxing ring — driving around town in purple limos.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“They’d drop people off at the grocery store,” McQueen said. “So it’s like, ‘Well, what’s that?’ And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the Purple People.'”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Purple is a big theme with Morehouse, whose members also live in purple-painted houses. In high school, McQueen and her friends were so curious about the group they’d make a night of spying on the property from the one lookout point where you could see it.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>The “Purple People” themselves \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/faq.html#purple-people\">do not answer to that name\u003c/a>. “Do I look purple to you?” one Morehouse member \u003ca href=\"https://archives.sfweekly.com/sanfrancisco/purple-haze/Content?oid=2132347\">told an SF Weekly reporter in 1995\u003c/a>. And their penchant for privacy is well-known in the area; McQueen’s father was a mail carrier, but Morehouse wouldn’t let him get past the gate of their property to make his deliveries.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>McQueen herself had never heard the name Lafayette Morehouse. She has, however, heard the sex cult rumor, and media organizations also have referred to the group that way. So she wants to know the truth about Morehouse.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’m just wondering, are the Purple People still there and what are they about?” she asked.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Marco Beneteau took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 2000s and has lived in several communes. He said the idea that the group is a cult is “complete nonsense,” and that the group has displayed none of the characteristics associated with cults.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives. None of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Academics who study intentional communities like Morehouse eschew the very word “cult,” said \u003ca href=\"https://religiousstudies.ku.edu/timothy-miller\">Tim Miller, a professor of religious studies at the University of Kansas\u003c/a> who has written extensively about 1960s-era communes.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“The way people in common parlance use the word is to say [this is] something I don’t like, and that may have a good basis and it may not,” he said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>So why has Lafayette Morehouse acquired this reputation? I very much wanted to talk to the group, but despite numerous emails and phone calls, they mostly ignored me. However, some of their history is available in newspaper stories, magazine articles and books, on websites and via former members. What has come through is that Lafayette Morehouse is one of the few surviving links to an increasingly forgotten part of Bay Area history.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" src=\"https://www.youtube.com/embed/TgR5YkWAekM\" title=\"YouTube video player\" frameborder=\"0\" allow=\"accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture\" scrolling=\"yes\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>This promotional video produced by Lafayette Morehouse is the only one on their YouTube channel.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Communes, gurus and human potential\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>To really understand Lafayette Morehouse, you have to grasp a few things about the 1960s and early 1970s other than Bob Dylan, Vietnam and hippies.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>During the era, the younger generation — believe it or not, the baby boomers now so readily derided as out of touch — formed the bulk of a counterculture looking to overthrow norms and conventions in just about everything: religion, politics, music, art — you name it. Hundreds of thousands — even up to a million — young people took to living together in groups organized around political, religious or environmental ideals, said Miller, who \u003ca href=\"https://www.amazon.com/60s-Communes-Syracuse-Conflict-Resolution/dp/081560601X?asin=081560601X&revisionId=&format=4&depth=2\">authored a survey of the era’s communes\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Starting in 1965, he said, “there was just an explosion” of new communities. These groups sought to build a better society based on values other than those enshrined in what Miller calls “this sort of me-first” American culture.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>While communitarian ideas were inspiring people to live together in collectivist ways, a parallel, more individualistic philosophy also was gaining ground. The human potential movement was based on the notion that people could tap into their unused abilities to attain “self-actualization.” The Bay Area became a hub for both these ideas.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>This also was the age when high-profile evangelists pushed for expanding human consciousness. \u003ca href=\"https://www.wired.com/2013/10/timothy-leary-archives/\">The former Harvard professor Timothy Leary\u003c/a> urged young people to take psychedelic drugs and “turn on, tune in and drop out.” Meanwhile, self-educated former car salesman Werner Erhard promoted \u003ca href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training\">a program of intense seminars called EST\u003c/a>, designed to bring about personal transformation.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In 1967, at the intersection of communes, the human potential movement and the rise of these charismatic gurus, appeared the founder of Morehouse: Victor Baranco.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Victor Baranco was one of the teachers who had come up with a philosophy that helped people to self-actualize or reach their human potential,” said Laurie Rivlin-Heller, who knew Baranco in the 1970s when she lived in Morehouse residences in Oakland and Rohnert Park. \u003ca href=\"https://communalstudies.org/product/communal-societies-vol-25-2005/\">She later wrote her master’s thesis on the group\u003c/a>, which was initially called the \u003ca href=\"https://oaklandmorehouse.com/\">Institute of Human Abilities\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco was a former appliance salesman now selling a new philosophy, in which the goal, broadly speaking, was to remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was good at reeling people into his orbit.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“You would participate in a course in which he was the teacher,” Rivlin-Heller said. “And he would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing. Not only did he listen, but he looked and he could assess on the basis of your question and maybe a couple of follow-up questions where you were coming from. It was a unique gift.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Baranco’s group made money by selling courses and renovating dilapidated houses he’d purchased. The Morehouse concept was so successful that at one point it had dozens of affiliates around the country, and \u003ca href=\"https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/sgt-bilko-meets-the-new-culture-182617/\">Rolling Stone reported\u003c/a> that people in Berkeley were calling the founder “the Colonel Sanders of the commune scene.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>That 1971 article was less than complimentary, portraying Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo surrounded by obsequious devotees who paid money to hear him deliver homespun homilies. Baranco was also quoted as acknowledging he’d been a “hustler” who’d made “big money in shady ways. Not necessarily illegal, but shady,” including selling phony diamond rings and watches. The article later appeared in a book called “Mindfuckers” alongside a chapter on Charles Manson — not a good look for any leader of a commune.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rivlin-Heller said the article missed the point of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“He put everything up front,” she said. “The introductory course to Morehouse is called the ‘Mark Group,’ where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were volunteering, entering into the hustle and participating in it. Those that I know, [they] had a good experience there … and if they didn’t feel they were getting value, they would leave.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Another former Morehouse adherent, Rebekah Beneteau, said she took a lot of courses at the Lafayette property in the 1990s and also lived with her then-husband, Marco, in a Yonkers, New York, Morehouse. She described her time there as “a really life-changing experience.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-body\">\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I call them the silver-lining people,” Beneteau said, “because their philosophy and approach to life was to always view everything as if it was a gift and their own creation. And how could they use it? How could they view it as already perfect, including the potential for change?”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One of the primary components of the Morehouse philosophy, both Beneateaus said, is that a community runs better when its women are happy.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau said that while the Morehouses clearly had a money-making component, she never felt they took advantage of her.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“I’ve actually been affiliated with way more organizations that are way more pushy and suck your money out,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>So what’s with the sex?\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Lafayette Morehouse bills its philosophy as “responsible hedonism.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Hedonism is an ethical point of view that has the pursuit of pleasure as the highest goal,” the group writes on its website. “People often think that living pleasurably means that you don’t care about anybody else. Our experience has proven that if you are going to have a pleasurable life, then you have to see to it that others around you live pleasurably too.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>A big part of Morehouse’s hedonistic doctrine appears to involve having better sex. The group currently has nine sensuality-related \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">courses advertised on its website\u003c/a>.\u003c/p>\n\u003cfigure id=\"attachment_11913695\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\" style=\"max-width: 1296px\">\u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/course.html\">\u003cimg loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"size-full wp-image-11913695\" src=\"https://ww2.kqed.org/app/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png\" alt=\"A screenshot of the nine course titles offered by Lafayette Morehouse related to sensuality.\" width=\"1296\" height=\"412\" srcset=\"https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM.png 1296w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-800x254.png 800w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-1020x324.png 1020w, https://cdn.kqed.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2022/05/Screen-Shot-2022-05-10-at-10.36.31-AM-160x51.png 160w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 1296px) 100vw, 1296px\">\u003c/a>\u003cfigcaption class=\"wp-caption-text\">Current sensuality-related courses offered by Lafayette Morehouse. \u003ccite>(Lafayette Morehouse)\u003c/cite>\u003c/figcaption>\u003c/figure>\n\u003cp>The focus on sex is a reflection of the culture at the time of Morehouse’s founding, said Rivlin-Heller. Baranco, who was in his 30s at the time, saw a way for people his age and older to participate in the sexual revolution happening around them.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“All of these different gurus had different hooks,” Rivlin-Heller said. “Ram Dass did meditation and chanting and Buddhism. Esalen had humanistic psychology. So the sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>One notorious Morehouse event was a \u003ca href=\"http://www.lafayettemorehouse.com/first-demo.html\">public demonstration\u003c/a> in 1976 of what the group claimed was a woman having a three-hour orgasm. (No, I couldn’t find any video.) And Baranco took advantage of California’s loose postsecondary education standards to turn the Lafayette commune into “More University,” which offered Ph.D.s in the humanities and sensuality, and conducted what the organization said was sexual research. In 1992, The San Francisco Chronicle reported that courses cost as much as $16,800. A 1994 profile of the university in \u003ca href=\"https://docplayer.net/45093155-Volume-2-no-7-march-1994-2-50.html\">the conservative magazine Heterodoxy\u003c/a> described a \u003ca href=\"https://www.nytimes.com/1994/08/31/us/california-trying-to-close-worthless-diploma-schools.html\">less than rigorous academic program\u003c/a>, to put it mildly, as well as some alleged troubling sexual incidents, though no arrests or charges were ever made.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>In the 1980s and ’90s, Baranco unsuccessfully sued The Chronicle and The Contra Costa Times for libel. One court decision is not-safe-for-work reading: According to the court, More University’s Advanced Sensuality class included research in “engorgement, lubrication, seminal secretion.” It said one of the goals of the course was to “make friends with another crotch.” The university was forced to shut down in 1997.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Rebekah Beneteau, at least, believes Morehouse did legitimate sexual research.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“There are many people now who are teaching [the one-hour orgasm] who either attribute it to them or not,” she said. “They have a technique that allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>For a whole hour?\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes,” she said.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c!-- iframe plugin v.4.3 wordpress.org/plugins/iframe/ -->\u003cbr>\n\u003ciframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?height=314&href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Flafayette.morehouse%2Fvideos%2F2506462923003338%2F&show_text=false&width=560&t=0\" width=\"560\" height=\"314\" style=\"border:none;overflow:hidden\" scrolling=\"no\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" allow=\"autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; picture-in-picture; web-share\" class=\"iframe-class\">\u003c/iframe>\u003cbr>\n \u003cem>A Facebook Live video from Lafayette Morehouse discussing their approach to communal living and COVID-19.\u003c/em>\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Fear of what’s different\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>From the 1970s into the early 1990s, Lafayette Morehouse engaged in an ongoing battle with the county and neighbors over zoning issues and code violations, including allowing unhoused people to live on the property in tents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Tim Miller, the historian of intentional communities, said it’s not uncommon for communes to be unpopular among local residents.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“That’s a very typical thing that’s happened throughout history,” he said. “There seems to be an instinctive fear among a lot of people of anything that’s new or different.”\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Miller said the remaining ’60s-era communes are “often quite quiet. They don’t want to call attention to themselves, even though … they get along with their neighbors and all of that. [But] the big problem they have over and over are zoning laws [that] often forbid communal living.”\u003c/p>\n\u003ch2>Surviving the decades\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>Baranco died in Hawaii in 2002, and since then Lafayette Morehouse has been mostly free of controversy. The great swell of ’60s-era communes eventually dissipated, leaving only a small fraction of surviving groups.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>“A friend of mine, who still lives on one of the ’60s-era communes, said when their community had a great out-migration in the ’80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all,” said Miller.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>It’s hard to say why Morehouse has outlasted its peers, but Rebekah Beneteau said \u003ca href=\"https://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/how-to-free-love-commune-neil-strauss-2018-6/\">Morehouse has figured out how to make group living work\u003c/a>. During the coronavirus pandemic, \u003ca href=\"https://fb.watch/cNfpmcgSuM/\">the group held a webcast\u003c/a> where they described the difficulty of living in a close community with so many people during a pandemic. But true to their “silver lining” philosophy, they were looking for ways the experience could actually enhance their lives.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>Not a bad goal, really.\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\u003c/div>",
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"content": "\u003cdiv class=\"post-content post-body\">\u003ch2 id=\"episode-transcript\">Episode Transcript\u003c/h2>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I’m Olivia Allen-Price. You’re listening to Bay Curious.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Today we’re going to venture back to the 1960s and 70s, when the Bay Area was a center for many social movements.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People took to the streets to protest the Vietnam War …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sound pop of protest\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Black Panther Party formed in response to police brutality against Black people …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Speech: We are talking about the survival of Black people, nothing else…\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Women were frustrated by the gender inequality they faced daily … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Chanting: Free our sisters, free ourselves\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And a lot of people started to think differently about how they wanted to live. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As many as a million Americans decided to join communes, group living situations, often with shared chores and finances.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now the vast majority of those intentional communities that formed in the 60s and 70s have disappeared. But not all of them. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Reporter Jon Brooks went looking for one that survived in the suburbs of Contra Costa County, a group that has been steeped in mystery and sometimes controversy.\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One note for listeners: we do talk about sex in this episode. It first aired in 2022. Here’s Jon… \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> If you were a high school kid growing up in the Walnut Creek area back in the 1990s, there wasn’t a lot to do. That’s one reason why Sabrina McQueen has never forgotten the big purple car she saw driving around town. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They’d drop people off at the grocery store. So it’s like, well, what’s that? And that’s when my mom told me, ‘Oh, those are the purple people.’ \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Purple people. That is fun to say. Say it once, you’re probably gonna want to say it again. Purple people. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Who could they possibly be? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s what Sabrina wants to know. She remembers in the seventh grade she went with a friend to pick someone up who lived on the purple people’s property…a com pound on some 20-plus acres. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was so excited that I thought I was going to go inside and be able to see it. And then we got just to the gate, and that was it. You can’t get past the gate.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What exactly was going on in there? It’s one of those lingering mysteries to people who live in the area. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Now, here we should tell you, the Purple People aren’t really called the Purple People. (I know, rats.) That is just what locals call them. Why? Because they’re known to drive around in purple vehicles and live in purple-painted houses.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Do you know the official name of the group?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> No, I don’t. That’s why I asked this question. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Their real name is Lafayette Morehouse. And they are one of a very small fraction of 1960s-era communes that survive to this day. Lafayette Morehouse was so mysterious to locals like Sabrina, she and her friends on weekends would drive to this one lookout point to see if they could catch a glimpse of the property. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It would be kind of like, Hey, what do you guys want to go do tonight? It’s like, Oh, you guys want to go like, check out the purple people? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s driving me to that spot now. But she’s having a hard time finding it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> So, here’s where we’re going to turn. But it has been 30 years\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Excuse me, we’re looking for the Purple People campus … \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Purple people campus? \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks in scene:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Yeah. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Man on street:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Sorry, no idea.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> You never heard that?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you think they don’t know for real?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Music post\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Lafayette Morehouse has a colorful history, which we’re going to get into in a moment, but in recent decades it’s been quiet. Three years ago, the group was briefly in the news after someone left racist graffiti on their buildings. Morehouse’s reaction to the media at the time: No comment. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Naturally, I wanted very much to talk to the group, but they declined multiple interview requests. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I did find three former Morehouse members who did want to talk. Like Rebekah Beneteau. She took courses at Lafayette Morehouse in the 1990s. The group was so successful at attracting members, Morehouse branches sprang up around the country. Beneteau says she lived for six years in one of the sister Morehouse communes in New York. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Really the core of Morehouse’s philosophy is that life is better lived together and that we disrupted that in the 50s by shuttling every woman, every couple, off into their own houses. And then we invented Valium because there were all these women alone at home going nuts. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1960s and 70s a lot of people were looking for new ways to live more fulfilling lives, at least more fulfilling than their parents. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One way to escape the prescribed path laid out by society – school, job, marriage, kids, death – was to live together in groups organized around political, religious, or environmental ideals.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Hundreds of thousands, up to a million, people tried their hand at communal living, says professor Tim Miller, an expert on intentional communities.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Tim Miller:\u003c/b> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Starting in 1965, I think you can date it that precisely. there was a whole new wave of communities came along… (4:00) I would say by and large these new young people’s communities were not very popular with mainstream society, and I would say that’s a very typical thing. I think it’s just that fear of what’s different.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 1970s ..and all the way through the 90s, Morehouse and Contra Costa County also battled over zoning issues and code violations … skirmishes that were frequently reported in the news. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Psychedelic music starts\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The 1960s and 70s were also the age of … the guru. Like Timothy Leary – who urged people to take psychedelic drugs.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Leary: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Turn on, tune in, and drop out. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And Werner Erhard, creator of something called E-S-T, or EST. This was a program of intense seminars supposedly leading to personal transformation. What Erhard was prescribing was… um, I don’t know…\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Werner Erhard: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">People are…that love is attention. People are…that love is attention. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of these different gurus had different hooks. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Laurie Rivlin Heller. In the early ‘70s she dropped out of college and moved to the Bay Area. Here, she got interested in the human potential movement – the idea that people could tap into their unused abilities to reach their full potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That’s when she discovered someone named \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/i> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> We’ve got to pause for a quick break. When we return … we get to know Victor Baranco.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sponsor message\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u003cbr>\n\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Laurie Rivlin Heller met Victor Baranco in the early 70s, and found herself drawn to him.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The Berkeley-born Baranco was the founder of Morehouse, which had branches in a few Bay Area cities. Baranco had a successful career as an appliance salesman. But with Morehouse, he was offering something more than consumer goods. He was selling a new philosophy. The goal…remove the self-created obstacles between you and what you want. And he was \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">good\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> at it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He would be able to see you in a way that most people are not capable of doing.\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The fact that he could so clearly understand who I was and where I was coming from. And he did that to everybody. It was a unique gift. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco called his program for living “responsible hedonism.” That means creating a pleasurable life for not only yourself, but for others. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The responsible part\u003c/span> \u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">was that you take responsibility for your life and your action. Things could change, but it was up to you to do that.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The hedonism part? That’s where the “more” in Mor ehouse comes in. And a lot of it has to do with … you guessed it … or you didn’t, because this is public media: sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> The sexual revolution, I guess you would say, was the hook for Victor Baranco. There were young people in this time period who were experiencing sexuality in a way that hadn’t been done previously. And there were older people who wanted a piece of it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">According to former members, one of the tenets of Baranco’s teaching was that a community functioned better when the women were happy, sexually and otherwise.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The group is famous for a 1976 demonstration of a woman reportedly having a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">3-hour\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> orgasm. Yes I said what I said. I spent a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">lot\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> of time looking for that tape. Didn’t find it. But I did find some current Morehouse YouTube videos.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the fundamentals of sensuality course, we discuss the nature of orgasm. And in the afternoon, there’s a live demonstration of a woman in orgasm for an hour that will really blow your mind. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Rebekah Beneteau…the woman who lived in a Morehouse commune in New York… was at first put off by the emphasis on sex. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They had a class where a woman was demonstrating being in orgasm for an hour. I thought that was extremely freaky. I didn’t want anything to do with them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But she did like the group’s positive outlook and focus on people’s ability to change. Now, she offers sex and intimacy coaching. And, she changed her mind about the one-hour orgasm. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> They have a technique that also allowed me to sink into my body much more instead of always being up in my head. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> 30:05 Can you really have a one-hour orgasm?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Rebekah Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> Not yet, but I’ve gotten up to 27 minutes\u003c/span>\u003cb>\u003ci> \u003c/i>\u003c/b>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Mm, 27 minutes. Pretty, pretty good.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">All of this focus on sex has led to a certain reputation for Morehouse among its neighbors.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There’s a couple of rumors, one that it was a sex cult. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yes, the group has definitely at times been labeled a sex cult. So much so they even have a question on their F-A-Q page … “Are you a sex cult?”\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I mean, that’s complete nonsense.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">This is Marco Beneteau. He and Rebekah used to be married. He also took a lot of Morehouse courses. Then the two of them started their own commune in Philadelphia. Now he lives on a commune in Wyoming. So the man knows his communes. He says Morehouse didn’t have any of the characteristics people associate with cults.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Marco Beneteau: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">For instance, excommunication for leaving, financial coercion. You know, demanding that people cut off relationships with their relatives, that, you know, none of this has ever been practiced at Morehouse.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If Morehouse isn’t a cult, it has been controversial. In 1971, Rolling Stone published a pretty unflattering portrait of the group – complete with Baranco driving around in a chauffeur-driven limo. The article implied Baranco was making a lot of money off group members. But Laurie Rivlin Heller says there was nothing devious going on. Self-interest was an open part of Baranco’s philosophy.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Laurie Rivlin Heller:\u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> I would say that he put everything up front. The introductory course to Morehouse is called the Mark Group, where you are the mark. So there was no denying that he had put together a hustle, but you were voluntarily entering into the hustle and participating in it.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Still, that Rolling Stone article later appeared in a book alongside a chapter on Charles Manson. Not a good look for any leader of a commune. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Lafayette Morehouse Video: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Using classical educational modes, More university is dedicated to the full realization of human potential. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Baranco later turned Lafayette Morehouse into More University. More University, more controversy. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university offered PhDs in the humanities and of course, sensuality, including sexual research. In 1992, the San Francisco Chronicle reported at least one course cost almost 17-thousand dollars. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In the 80s and 90s Baranco sued the Chronicle and the Contra Costa Times for libel. (Hashtag please don’t sue \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">us\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.) The court threw those lawsuits out. One of the decisions is not-safe-for-work reading. According to the court, a goal of More University’s Advanced Sensuality class was to “make friends with another crotch.” Which, if you’re listening Morehouse, would be an awesome bumper sticker. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The university shut down in the mid-90s.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Victor Baranco died in 2002 at the age of 68. And, eventually, the great majority of ‘60s communes faded away. Professor Timothy Miller:\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Timothy Miller: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Friend of mine, who still lives on one of the 60s era communes, said when their community had a great outmigration in the 80s, he thought some of them just decided they were Republicans, after all.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But Morehouse has survived. The decades come, the decades go, and they’re still doing their thing – whatever it is. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Back in the car with Sabrina, we wandered around trying to find that one view of the campus she remembers. We kept taking wrong turns, going back over the same streets. And then… …\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a purple house.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sabrina’s excited. She’s a Purple People fan. \u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wonder if that belongs to… Oh, yeah, I mean, that is, does that look like it’s purple?\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It’s a \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">nice\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> property, with tennis courts and everything. But really, there’s not much to see and the group does have a right to its privacy. Sabrina, I think, is viewing it through the eyes of her high school years, when there was this mysterious aura around this counterculture group … \u003c/span>\u003ci>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">right\u003c/span>\u003c/i>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\"> in her own suburban home town.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I wanted to know what she thinks of the Purple People now.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Sabrina McQueen: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is kind of interesting that this has survived so long, which I think is so amazing. I mean, hey, if that’s what they want to do and they’re peaceful and they are able to be part of our community, it sounds like they’re having fun. So good for them.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Jon Brooks: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m a reporter. It’s my job to be skeptical. But I will say one thing. At the beginning of the coronavirus pandemic, Lafayette Morehouse went live over Facebook. They were definitely taking safety seriously. But, their aim wasn’t just to survive COVID, they said that wasn’t a high enough goal. They wanted to use the experience as a way to make their lives even better.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If life hands you really sour lemons, make even sweeter lemonade.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I got to admit, I’m still thinking about that one.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cb>Olivia Allen-Price: \u003c/b>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That was reporter Jon Brooks.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you like Bay Curious, I’ve got a request. Please tell your podcast listening friends about the show. We all like a good recommendation…help us grow!\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And as always, consider donating to help sustain the work we do on Bay Curious. More info at \u003c/span>\u003ca href=\"http://kqed.org/donate\">\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">KQED.org/donate\u003c/span>\u003c/a>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Bay Curious is made in San Francisco at member-supported KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Our show is produced by Katrina Schwartz, Christopher Beale and me, Olivia Allen-Price. Brendan Willard and Sebastian Miño-Bucheli also helped on this episode. We get extra support from: Katie Sprenger, Maha Sanad, Jen Chien, Ethan Toven-Lindsey and everyone on Team KQED.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003c/p>\n\u003cp>\u003cspan style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I’m Olivia Allen-Price. Have a wonderful week.\u003c/span>\u003c/p>\n\n\u003c/div>"
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"filterData": {
"region": {
"key": "Restaurant Region",
"filters": [
"Any Region"
]
},
"cuisine": {
"key": "Restaurant Cuisine",
"filters": [
"Any Cuisine"
]
}
},
"restaurantDataById": {},
"restaurantIdsSorted": [],
"error": null
},
"userAgentReducer": {
"userAgent": "Mozilla/5.0 AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko; compatible; ClaudeBot/1.0; +claudebot@anthropic.com)",
"isBot": true
},
"requestOutcomesReducer": {
"notFound": []
}
}
